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GKazman
11-05-2009, 15:22
How is this army fairing with it's new codex?

I've always viewed demons as something of a weaker side to chaos and have leafed through their new codex and just can't seem to have seen them getting any better.

I recently got in a debate with my room mate who insists that they're winning tournaments and are "overpowered" which I just can't see.

Can anyone confirm or deny the strength of this list?

(I know I'm opening this up for a lot of opinion but I'm fine with multiple different responses)

Mannimarco
11-05-2009, 15:27
certain daemon lists are highly powerful but i wouldnt say broken, the reason they did so well at tourneys is they have a completely different play style to other armies and you need new tactics to combat them, its the whole deep striking army thing, means vey powerful troops can arrive close to the enemy lines without getting shot to hell

GKazman
11-05-2009, 16:19
I guess I see this, but my concern lies with the "deepstrike and stand there for a turn" thing.

How is this, coupled with only 1/2 the army being readily available, causing any real issues?

I do see your point regarding completely different play styles causing havoc with players who script their first few turns out, good point there.

MajorWesJanson
11-05-2009, 16:21
Daemons seem to be one of those Win Big/Lose Big armies.

satanslandlady
11-05-2009, 16:27
What really balances the daemons is there deep striking actually. You roll to see if you get the half you want. You roll to see if they land where you want. You roll to see if each unit in the other half is showing up and hope there's an icon left from the first half so you aren't' deep striking again.

If you don't get the half you want.. that can be a problem. You deep strike mishap and you're more likely to hate the outcome. Usually I don't mishap but I have had guys placed to the far corners of the board so they never made it into combat. Rolling to see if your other half would like to show up is what usually causes the most problems. If something you really wanted decides never to show up... well it is quite sad. If the dice don't love you then don't play daemons :p

If you get everything relatively stable though with that then you make players very very nervous but I don't consider them over powered.

Leogun_91
11-05-2009, 16:34
I play deamons....in fact I started 40k when deamons came but my demons are pure 40k and I use distinct 40k bases to get people to understand that I donīt want to play them in fantasy too (which by the way isnīt working at all but looks cool).
They arenīt overpowered, there are way too many thing that can go wrong for them and they are weak to massed fire (not high S and AP one shot weapons but the kind you get from lots of guardsmen or orks (yes I have had bloodletter units being wiped by one round of shoota shots)). Neither is deamons weak, there are many things that can go wonderfully well and high AS low A (shooting and melee) will be troubled by them.
There is however one time where they are underpowered........deamonhunters, itīs really annoying having youīr Bloodthirster unable to engage the Grandmaster beacouse it can use a psychic power that makes it untouchable.

GKazman
11-05-2009, 16:42
Aye, I agree that they don't seem overpowered. My argument was that they're not even really competitive since so much of the army relies on chance and you tend to start the game (at best) half strength. And the other half piece mealing itself into the game rather half-harzardly. I just can't seem to reconcile that with the thought of facing a full strength army prepped and ready to go, even with deep striking on top of the opposing army you're still facing either a counterstrike, or a gun line and now you're in the sweet spot for most of the weaponry.

Corrode
11-05-2009, 16:55
Daemons work pretty well. You can lead with a strong, durable wave, and once you deep strike the second round of units you can utilise Icons to make sure you come down where you want to. Individual Daemon units are pretty powerful, and the blanket Fearless and invulnerable saves go a long way to making them resilient. Remember you can run off a Deep Strike, so unless you have an absolutely disastrous scatter you can usually get adjust well enough.

Overall it encourages a very carefully aggressive playstyle, and it's a fun book to play with and against. There's obviously games where literally nothing goes right and half your army turns up on turn 5 (and then scatters themselves into unusability) but every army has disastrous games.

Azhrarn
11-05-2009, 16:56
They're not overpowered as such, some combinations are very nasty though.

(For example: Bloodcrushers of Khorne backed up by Fateweaver are almost impossible to kill as long as Fateweaver remains on the table and in range)
In fantasy they can be borderline broken though.

As for the Deep Strike and Stand There problem, you don't have too, you can run when you land, sure you can't get into combat, but you can move apart atleast to avoid template issues. Drop CC units behind cover, or out of sight.

And the shooting units tend to be quite sturdy, so those can take a bit of fire, 4+ invulnerable saves aren't something to scoff at. I tend to treat my shooting as expendable and drop them as close as I can on turn 1.

The Flamers will generally annihilate atleast one unit, they'll get charged afterwards, but they've held up my opponents longer than they liked more than once.

Horrors are cheap enough to field in sizeable units. (I've gone for 12-15 so far) and will deal some serious damage to whatever they target on the turn they land, afterwards there are enough bodies there to survive a few turns of combat thanks to the invulnerable saves and hold out until the Bloodletters or Daemonettes arrive which then really mess up the enemy because he's locked up tight due to the horrors still surviving.:evilgrin:

The army is somewhat fickle to play with due to the randomness of the deepstrike, but with proper force selection you can usually give atleast a decent showing regardless of the opposition. (except perhaps against guard with lots of masters of the fleet)

GKazman
11-05-2009, 17:04
Hm, I certainly see the points being made. And while I am not questioning your experience in the matter it just goes against my mentality as a general to allow for such fickle behavior out of my army (beyond the normal dice rolls) that I just can't square with. (Certainly a problem with my mindset, but I accept this)

I thank everyone for their responses on the matter ^,^

dal9ll
11-05-2009, 18:05
Daemons seem to be one of those Win Big/Lose Big armies.

^ I fully agree. This is what makes them so fun for me and is the charm of playing Daemons. The Gods be fickle!

aberrant_unc
11-05-2009, 18:12
Though they have had some recent tournament success I do not think they are overpowered. People just need time to get used playing them.

Now that they have two really tough matches (demonhunters and IG w/reserve roll screwage leader) I think they will have trouble at tournaments.

Vedar
11-05-2009, 18:55
They are not overpowered, but they are not weaksause. They need good luck more then most armies. Random half of army comes in first turn, random reserve rolls, random DS...

When the dice are against you, it will be an uphill battle all the way.

When the dice are with you it is like warm apple pie.

CrownAxe
11-05-2009, 19:17
I guess I see this, but my concern lies with the "deepstrike and stand there for a turn" thing.

How is this, coupled with only 1/2 the army being readily available, causing any real issues?

I do see your point regarding completely different play styles causing havoc with players who script their first few turns out, good point there.

If its played by a good general, then it serves no real problem

Deep striking isn't a problem. Deep strike your units in cover or behind terrain/your big durable units to give them protection. Focusing your first wave to 1/2 of the board so that only 1/2 of their army is in the fight. You can run on the turn you deep strike too so if they scatter some what (or if there are blasts) you can still move into a better position. Don't think of it as a problem, use it to your full advantage

The 1/2 army isn't a problem either. Remember that daemon units are costed with this in mind so 1/2 of our army is about the strength of 65-70% of their army. The best thing to do is drop ALL of your shooting in the first wave since this will guarantee you getting the first attack and kill some of them, which will also help for when your assault units come in on latter turns as their will be less opposition to kill them. Your big durable units (like Nurgle and MCs) should also be in the first wave since they can absorb shooting pretty well

Daemon are pretty good, just have to be skilled at using them.

Mchagen
11-05-2009, 19:25
I just can't seem to reconcile that with the thought of facing a full strength army prepped and ready to go, even with deep striking on top of the opposing army you're still facing either a counterstrike, or a gun line and now you're in the sweet spot for most of the weaponry.

The main idea behind the army is striking where you want. Sure deepstrikes can go wrong, but isolating key elements of the opponents army is essential with demons.

I suggest checking the battle reports section for Redrivertears' posts. He has all his (extensive) battles listed in his signature--demons, chaos, dark eldar. He's been inactive a bit lately so you may have to dig a few pages back.

But regardless, he has extremely good batreps and background to match on all his armies and he's a very tactically minded player that plays demons very well. Anyone who's read his posts will tell you the same.

This may give you the best example of demons in action and how powerful they can be behind a skilled player (although, this can be the case for most armies).

Here's the link, http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=153826

GKazman
11-05-2009, 20:04
Beautiful, thank you very much for the link...

I remain skeptical; but, I will read the batreps and spend some time tonight running some games against demons using a couple of my armies to see if my skepticism regarding their viability is warrented or if I'm just holding onto old idea's regarding how armies should "behave." (Although the fickle nature of the demons makes their "behavior" as far as fickleness totally in line with their fluff.)

Mannimarco
11-05-2009, 20:19
my pure nurgle daemon army just got slaughtered bu a guard army who screwed my reserves

Mchagen
11-05-2009, 20:29
my pure nurgle daemon army just got slaughtered bu a guard army who screwed my reserves

This doesn't surprise me truthfully. If you make a mono list you basically set your self on 'one-trick.' Especially nurgle which has very limited or no shooting and no mobility outside of winged princes.

Guard are the new updated army and tactics against them will develop in time. There will definitely be no small amount of responses complaining about how they were unable to deal with all the new IG rules.

Regardless, one game doesn't set the curve. Also, if your opponent is tailoring against your 'all-comers' list you're already on the backstep.

druchii
11-05-2009, 20:49
How is this army fairing with it's new codex?

I've always viewed demons as something of a weaker side to chaos and have leafed through their new codex and just can't seem to have seen them getting any better.

I recently got in a debate with my room mate who insists that they're winning tournaments and are "overpowered" which I just can't see.

Can anyone confirm or deny the strength of this list?

(I know I'm opening this up for a lot of opinion but I'm fine with multiple different responses)

Let me tell you that demons are far from "weak" or "overpowered" (not like dual lash, nob bikers, faith pinatas or the multitude of other lists). What they do allow for is a great deal of tactical flexibility.

Demons are an army that preys on weakness. Yours and your opponent's. If you mess up, you know it. And when they mess up, the game's usually over. Demons area highly tactical force that lets you really dictate what happens and where it will. Poor opponents will miss these opportunities, and you'll slap 'em around, while good players will see them, take them (or else get slapped around) but if you've set stuff up properly, these matchups will be to your advantage.

That being said demons have some glaring weaknesses that don't rely on specific army foils (like the dual astropath or the null zone or demonhunter auto-win). AV14 will be a major problem-Land Raiders WILL tank shock you off of objectives and tie/win games. Hordey armies will give you trouble-especially the new guard. Mech armies will give you pause also, because those rhinos/chimeras/serpents allow those nasty rapidfire or vehicle shooting to tear your apart with little recourse.

That being said-demons are easily in the top 5 armies in the game.

d

Tae
11-05-2009, 20:55
I recently got in a debate with my room mate who insists that they're winning tournaments and are "overpowered" which I just can't see.

Not much more to add to what has been said before, only to ask re. the above, was he possibly talking about Fantasy? As in WFB they ARE winning tournaments and they ARE overpowered (have yet to see a single 40k Daemon army win a UK tournament thus far (though I'm sure they have somewhere)).

GKazman
07-08-2009, 03:00
Not much more to add to what has been said before, only to ask re. the above, was he possibly talking about Fantasy? As in WFB they ARE winning tournaments and they ARE overpowered (have yet to see a single 40k Daemon army win a UK tournament thus far (though I'm sure they have somewhere)).

I think he's blending the Fantasy demons with the 40k ones.

I've fought against several different demons armies and while they're certainly not in any way shape or form weak.