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Demon Druss
11-05-2009, 16:25
It always struck me as odd that the Eldar never considered cloning their population back to capacity surely it can be done. After all if the Eldar graft soulstones to vehicles and Wraith gaurds/Lords how hard would it be to graft a soulstone to a generic clone surely that must be a bit more tasteful than creating wraithgaurd which most Eldar view as something akin to grave robbing.

Blekinge
11-05-2009, 16:50
The eldar probably believe clones to have souls as well. Look at the current debate on harvesting the organs of fetuses...

Apologist
11-05-2009, 16:53
Clones in 40k are referred to occasionally, and the impression I always got is that they suffer from 'bad luck' as a result of something to do with their souls ref. Afriel Strain, Horus' clones...

As a highly psychic species, I imagine that cloning is equally distasteful as necromancy to the eldar.

Condottiere
11-05-2009, 17:04
Seems logical, but they might have religious and cultural objections. On the other hand, Dark Eldar don't strike me as having such inhibitions.

Radium
11-05-2009, 17:35
But then the Dark Kin suppress their psychic selves...

I don't think cloning would work very well for the Eldar, as they are very individualistic and having the same Eldar twice would be problematic at best.
If they somehow managed to grow soulless bodies, they might be able to transplant souls from the infinity circuit into those, but that would bring about the same objections as using wraithconstructs.

Inquisitor Engel
11-05-2009, 17:49
Seems logical, but they might have religious and cultural objections. On the other hand, Dark Eldar don't strike me as having such inhibitions.

We don't know the exact numbers of Dark Eldar though. We ASSUME it's a small number, but we don't really KNOW how busy they got post-Fall.

In fact, given that the Dark Eldar raiding force that's featured in 'Wolf at the Door' is fairly large and seemingly carefree about casualties and that's less than 400 years post-Fall (give or take) I'd be willing to bet that far, far more Dark Eldar were around than we like to think.

It can, potentially be because the Eldar mind is highly psychic from a biological point of view, a cloned body, whilst having no soul and being relatively psychically represents a large danger to the Craftworld from daemonic intrusion, they're essentially a blank slate for daemons to possess.

And haven't you seen Stargate? Cloning introduces genetic mutation that a race cannot recover from! ;)

Firaxin
11-05-2009, 18:04
a) You'd be crushing the clone's soul.
b) You'd be creating a vessel more susceptible to possession.
c) You'd be creating more mouths to feed (as opposed to a wraith construct/the infinity circuit)
d) You'd be delaying/preventing the creation of Ynnead.

Poseidal
11-05-2009, 18:08
Cloning wouldn't help much more than 'doing it' the traditional way anyway. Birthing isn't the problem; raising them is.

It won't stop the clones leaving the craftworld from being bored of the Path.

NightrawenII
11-05-2009, 18:42
It always struck me as odd that the Eldar never considered cloning their population back to capacity surely it can be done. After all if the Eldar graft soulstones to vehicles and Wraith gaurds/Lords how hard would it be to graft a soulstone to a generic clone surely that must be a bit more tasteful than creating wraithgaurd which most Eldar view as something akin to grave robbing.

What always struck me is: Why they dont have breeding program?

I mean why there isnt edict to enforce Eldar to *make* children? Its much easiest and less time-eating than cloning.:cheese:

Inquisitor Engel
11-05-2009, 19:06
I mean why there isnt edict to enforce Eldar to *make* children? Its much easiest and less time-eating than cloning.:cheese:

Read up on the Lebensborn and tell me that program fits with the Eldar race-image GW has cultivated. ;)

In reality, the real reason is probably because the Eldar gestation period is very, very long and birth is, I imagine, a risky and involved procedure, requiring doctors, Warlocks and Bone Singers all present. Once born they need to immediately implant and meld a Waystone to the child, bonding it with his flesh and bone, as well as psychically.

The longer the delay, the more at risk the child is at from predations of the warp.

Idaan
11-05-2009, 19:14
In fact, given that the Dark Eldar raiding force that's featured in 'Wolf at the Door' is fairly large and seemingly carefree about casualties and that's less than 400 years post-Fall (give or take) I'd be willing to bet that far, far more Dark Eldar were around than we like to think.Or maybe the author again couldn't force his brain to come up with the image of Eldar for M31 that would be any different from what is presented in M41, despite the massively different cultural and historical circumstances.


Cloning wouldn't help much more than 'doing it' the traditional way anyway. Birthing isn't the problem; raising them is.

It won't stop the clones leaving the craftworld from being bored of the Path. What Kysanduras the Anchorite wrote in his "Introspections upon Perfection" isn't the only and sole reason for Eldar decline. It's more like an old fart complaining about the youths being less cultured and civilised than in his times.

What always struck me is: Why they dont have breeding program?
Because they aren't in fear of dying out due to population decrease? "The Dying" refers to their culture, not their race. Consider: Native Americans, Basques, Chukchas and Ainu don't have major population decline while most Western European nations do. Which ones are called "dying cultures"?
Besides if the Eldar population was on decline, there wouldn't be any need to constantly expand and rebuild the Craftworlds to their ridiculous sizes.

NightrawenII
11-05-2009, 19:25
Read up on the Lebensborn and tell me that program fits with the Eldar race-image GW has cultivated. ;)

In reality, the real reason is probably because the Eldar gestation period is very, very long and birth is, I imagine, a risky and involved procedure, requiring doctors, Warlocks and Bone Singers all present. Once born they need to immediately implant and meld a Waystone to the child, bonding it with his flesh and bone, as well as psychically.

The longer the delay, the more at risk the child is at from predations of the warp.


Or maybe the author again couldn't force his brain to come up with the image of Eldar for M31 that would be any different from what is presented in M41, despite the massively different cultural and historical circumstances.
What Kysanduras the Anchorite wrote in his "Introspections upon Perfection" isn't the only and sole reason for Eldar decline. It's more like an old fart complaining about the youths being less cultured and civilised than in his times.

Because they aren't in fear of dying out due to population decrease? "The Dying" refers to their culture, not their race. Consider: Native Americans, Basques, Chukchas and Ainu don't have major population decline while most Western European nations do. Which ones are called "dying cultures"?
Besides if the Eldar population was on decline, there wouldn't be any need to constantly expand and rebuild the Craftworlds to their ridiculous sizes.

:evilgrin:
I was sarcastic.

Condottiere
11-05-2009, 19:31
Or maybe they have tried cloning, and didn't like the results.

GeneralDisaster
11-05-2009, 19:53
Cue REAL SCIENCE!

-Clones have the same biological age as their genetic donors, meaning babies are born with half their lifetime removed.
-Clones are genetically weaker
-Cloning removes variety from the genepool, meaning the already ****ed eldar could lose even more reprofuctive capacity

And some in-universe stuff:

-Clones are not ultramsmurfs, and therefore commit suicide aspiring to the level of the Ultramarines, while Calgar destroys the Craftworld's avatar using a combination of an empty baked beans tin and a yellow highlighter.

Condottiere
11-05-2009, 20:38
Based on the above, Eldar would be perfect clone donors, since they'll collect sample tissues when the subjects are in their teens, and it wouldn't matter if the clones are a century older genetically, considering the total lifespan of an Eldar.

Inquisitor Engel
11-05-2009, 21:51
Or maybe the author again couldn't force his brain to come up with the image of Eldar for M31 that would be any different from what is presented in M41, despite the massively different cultural and historical circumstances.

Regardless, the book is considered canon, so it is as it shall be.

Hellebore
12-05-2009, 04:54
Cue REAL SCIENCE!

-Clones have the same biological age as their genetic donors, meaning babies are born with half their lifetime removed.
-Clones are genetically weaker
-Cloning removes variety from the genepool, meaning the already ****ed eldar could lose even more reprofuctive capacity


What you should have said is cue bull ****.

Clones do not get born with half their lifetime removed. The telomerase activates in developing blastomeres to regrow telomeres. This happens in all babies. The dolly sheep clone didn't die from old age, but a disease called Jaagsiekte.

Clones are as genetically weak as the individual they were cloned from. So if you are genetically weak (whatever you've decided that even means) then your clone will be too. My clones on the other-hand will be awesome sauce.

Clones do remove variety from the genepool. According to Xenology however eldar DNA has little variation in it and is extremely stable anyway, so proportionally there is little change if you add clones to the mix. This appears as artficial genetic manipulation. The simplest solution would be to give Iyanden Alaitoc clones and Alaitoc Biel Tann clones.


The eldar produce clones all the time. Twins appear in eldar background quite a lot, especially when titan crews are involved.

A monozygotic twin is a clone. One where the original blastomere splits in half. This is often what is done in invitro fertilisation techniques to produce multiple potential offspring. You can do this continuously with a blastomere, artificially creating 5 or 7 identical individuals. It doesn't need to be an even number.

Those clones have no problem existing. Ergo, an eldar that has been cloned artificially will not have a problem with it either because there is no difference.

Hellebore

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 05:13
I thought Eldar Titan crews just happen to be individuals who form bonds from the same family, maybe Clan?

Hellebore
12-05-2009, 05:14
Twins are specifically referred to as piloting Revenants in particular (one each). The background in the EPIC swordwind supplement mentions double or even triple births as titan pilots. Apparently eldar even produce triplets on occasion.

Hellebore

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 05:20
Triplets, and they have population decline problems?

Inquisitor Engel
12-05-2009, 05:21
Hellebore with the biology smackdown!

IMHO the artificial cloning is likely not done within the Eldar because of religious or soul reasons. That and the whole "bad luck" thing clones seem to have in 40k...

Twins are considered something of a gift to each other and the society in Eldar culture, adding someone else just dilutes that. If Eldanesh and Ulthanar were clones, rather than brothers (I can't recall a specific mention that they're twins, but everything else they do is twin-like, and they sort of mirror Tyrion/Teclis, Eldanesh the warrior, Ulthanar the bard (bonesinger?) I may have missed something though.)

Hellebore
12-05-2009, 05:34
Triplets, and they have population decline problems?

Lol, yeah.


Hellebore with the biology smackdown!

IMHO the artificial cloning is likely not done within the Eldar because of religious or soul reasons. That and the whole "bad luck" thing clones seem to have in 40k...

Twins are considered something of a gift to each other and the society in Eldar culture, adding someone else just dilutes that. If Eldanesh and Ulthanar were clones, rather than brothers (I can't recall a specific mention that they're twins, but everything else they do is twin-like, and they sort of mirror Tyrion/Teclis, Eldanesh the warrior, Ulthanar the bard (bonesinger?) I may have missed something though.)


It's definitely not a biological reason, unless there is some bizarre biology in eldar that allows the formation of twins and triplets but not the artificial formation of twins and triplets.


One thing that is apparent though is the admech does use 'vat grown' clones. They are mentioned as being used to farm marine organs to create new chapters, and also as one of the ways servitors are created (apart from punishing criminals).

I suppose though being a servitor IS bad luck.:p
The marine organs obviously bypass the badluck of clones by not actually being from a clone, although they do grow in them.

Afaik though the only bad luck clones are the Afriel strain? Or was that mentioned in their entry as something consistent with all cloned regiments?

Hellebore

Putty
12-05-2009, 05:39
they should just have more unprotected sex

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 05:54
They did, it's called the Eye of Terror.

Inquisitor Engel
12-05-2009, 06:11
They did, it's called the Eye of Terror.

QFT.

It seems that cloning vs. genetic manipulation is one thing and another to the Eldar whom we know messed around with AT LEAST two alien races, to what appears to be a very large degree, seemingly without care.

Idaan
12-05-2009, 18:06
Triplets, and they have population decline problems? Or maybe they just don't. It really isn't mentioned anywhere besides "The Dying Race" tenet.