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Ultimate Life Form
11-05-2009, 16:54
Since itīs out for some time now, Iīd like to know if it can compete against itīs rivals and is well accepted. What prevents me from putting this into the computer forum is that my most important question is not concerned with the game itself but with itīs effect on GW.

Does it draw customers over to Table Top?

And most important of all, does it net GW money? Are there any numbers out yet on the financial impact? If it does as well as WoW, GW would be filthy rich by now.

Top or flop?

Templar Ben
11-05-2009, 17:32
Didn't they have to drop like 40 servers because it was not nearly as successful as hoped?

Random Integer
11-05-2009, 18:08
The last number I can remember seeing published was a subscriber base of about 300k. A pretty solid number for any mmo other than WoW.

Tourniquet
11-05-2009, 18:14
They dropped a lot of servers.
The game didnt end up being as good as the hype said it was.
Just like AoC and many many other MMO's

GraveGuard
11-05-2009, 18:17
Like others have said. Of course the biggest drop was after the 1st Month. I dropped the game myself after the first month due to the various techincal problems and the game promising on what it couldn't deliver and certain parts of it feeling just not like Warhammer.

Bregalad
11-05-2009, 18:19
1.) No MMORPG is as successful as WoW.
2.) Warhammer Online is reasonbable successful among the others. No number known, but 300k sounds about right. Maybe some decline. Certainly not as successful as the first expectations thought.
3.) With reduced number of servers, it works reasonably fine, with some bugs and stability problems still present. It also plays reasonably well, even if WoW is better gamewise.
4.) Apart from that, I can only recommend this game for its distinctive style. Walking around the Warhammer world gives you insights not possible in other media. Fully designed wacamps of many fractions, towns, landscape etc. And you can play some fine characters like fire mages, slayers or DE witches.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
11-05-2009, 18:23
Aye current numbers are 300K according to EA, the only problem they have was at October one month in, they had 750K subs and where hoping for 3million.

Basically as far as I can see they aimed for a niche market in full on PvP and its backfired, hopefully they'll add enough PvE to draw numbers back, but I'd be more worried with EA releasing KotoR at the end of the year. If thats successful, especially if its more successful than WaR, and WaR drops anymore numbers then they may feel they don't need two large MMO's.

I do remember Mark Jacobs saying before it launched that he feared for the MMO industry if WaR failed to even scratch WoW. It is starting to seem the only thing that will ever replace WoW, is WoW 2, but as I play WoW atm, I'm not sure of thats good or bad news.

Although I'm just hoping the 40K MMO gets to beta, and then proves to be good. Perhaps WaR won't make GW that much money, but the 40K one could still be a huge hit, well maybe.

Erloas
11-05-2009, 18:24
Yeah, as Random Integer said, in EAs recent quarterly reports they said about 300k users. Which puts it in line with every other major western MMO besides WoW, and EQ1 during its prime.

It hasn't been as big as some people thought it would be, but its still doing well enough. It really is pretty good numbers for a PvP focused game since they are almost always lower in number then PvE focused games. (while a lot of games, like WoW, have PvP, it is generally not the focus of the game and is at best a small part of it)

In terms of dropping servers, it was partially because they had a fairly high turn-over rate from launch (which always happens) and partially because they were simply too quick to roll out extra servers when they started. Their initial thoughts on population density of the servers were a lot lower then they should have been, so they thought they needed more servers then they did for a given sized player-base.

As for if it is making GW any money, I'm sure it is. If its a noticeable amount only the people at EA and GW could say for sure. It could have simply been a 1-time license fee, it could be a few percent of gross profits coming from the game, it could be a percentage of net profits from the game. It really depends on what the lawyers worked out a long time ago.

As far as the game driving table top sales, I'm sure it has, but how much so can't be seen without financial numbers. I know it got a lot of people looking into the TT game (from the forums I was watching prior to WARs launch) but how many people really invested in the TT game is hard to say. I know it got people at least thinking about it though.

Tourniquet
11-05-2009, 18:28
I'd play a 40k MMO tbh
Though it depends on how it plays and the classes.
IMO better if they dont release Sm as a player faction, but we all know they will

Llew
11-05-2009, 18:37
GW might do better with a 40k MMO. Right now, there's no sci-fi MMORPG that jumps out at me as being all that enthralling. (My friend's descriptions of all the fun in "Eve" hauling stuff around the galaxy killed that off for me.)

Although one might argue that WoW ripped off the GW feel and cartooned it up a bit, they're too similar for WAR to draw a massive player base. They hoped to capitalize on PvP players, but PvP players are only a small subset of any given game population. Plus, WoW constantly tweaks, revises, rebalances and otherwise changes their PvP *and* they have many different tiers of it, so it can appeal to a really wide base of players.

The GW IP can feed a hit MMORPG, but Blizzard is too good for them to compete head-to-head.

Fenlear
12-05-2009, 04:24
Well, I’ve been playing since beta, through launch and still have an account. To start it was BIG hype and has been slowly going downhill ever since. Mythic relied on free beta testers to tell them of all their bugs and I feel like I was the only person that even bothered to write a bug report and not just play before release. The game was released with millions of simple bugs that should have been long dealt with but they waited until 3 months after when paying costumers actually complained. To this day I can still pretty much walk anywhere for a half minute and find a bug somewhere and also get stuck on some invisible wall, a problem their games have had for 9 years and they still don’t change the code. They are actually using the same horrible shadows on the character models as the last game (9 years old).

The game is realistically Dark Age of Camelot 2.0 (the last MMO they made) with a Warhammer skin. While things may look right very little of the game feels like Warhammer. Like every other MMO it is healer focused, something the TT game barely even uses. There is nothing at all as far as players forming up into units (rank and file). Community bitching about the last game has created such a disdain for crowd control abilities that most classes can’t do anything other then spam DPS making most fights rather simple minded. In case you weren’t aware, GW put a LOT of product control into this one too. Unfortunately where they put all the products control was on the fluff rather then the game play (well this isn’t anything new for GW). I guess they couldn’t get to questioning the game play though when Mythic artists kept trying to submit things as generically as possible. They honestly wanted to use Viking looking boats as DE row boats!

They advertise it as a PVP game, and well they should as they half assed the PVE completely. It’s so bad that they really should have just not bothered. Tanks have to spec DPS just to tank in PVE as the tank builds don’t generate enough threat.

What scares me most though is that the account base has only gone down. Server merges improved things for a while but now the servers are 1/3 as full as they were at the time of the merges.

After all the bad noise, why do I still play? Push come to shove there isn’t any GREAT MMOs out right now. As far as PVP (they call it RvR) goes it’s about the best option out there, though it is missing hard core competition (which you’ll have to divert back to WOW for). I don’t see how WAR could do it when game play has been dumbed down on most levels to meat what they thought general audience wanted (In past polls for why people quit such games it usually comes down to they didn’t get to win being retarded.)

I would say it definitely got people to check out GW. I mean after all you keep seeing the GW logo every time the game turns on and the game IS based on it so you at least want to see what the hell it is. That being said it didn’t take long for hordes in general channel going off about how ridicules GW is, most of which never played the TT and have no clue how GW milks their customers, just honest people thinking, “Hey that looks cool and I’ve some money to burn. Oh, what the hell, they really want thousands of dollars for sets of army men? Holy ****! This actually goes down? People pay this? Wow I didn’t realize I was getting into a cult here!” Most common comment on the matter was that you couldn’t possibly be in the GW hobby at 15$ a month (price of the MMO), not unless you already have armies and no need for new things. I doubt they got any sales boost and if they did it died most instantly. The game does still have a fair number to subscribers though and I’m sure GW gets at least a piece of that. MMOs are easy money in that you can just cut back the customer service and bandwidth dependant on your sales (number of accounts) so Mythic will always make a profit no matter how small, and GW will get a piece of that at least.

Templar Ben
12-05-2009, 04:31
I would say it definitely got people to check out GW. I mean after all you keep seeing the GW logo every time the game turns on and the game IS based on it so you at least want to see what the hell it is. That being said it didn’t take long for hordes in general channel going off about how ridicules GW is, most of which never played the TT and have no clue how GW milks their customers, just honest people thinking, “Hey that looks cool and I’ve some money to burn. Oh, what the hell, they really want thousands of dollars for sets of army men? Holy ****! This actually goes down? People pay this? Wow I didn’t realize I was getting into a cult here!” Most common comment on the matter was that you couldn’t possibly be in the GW hobby at 15$ a month (price of the MMO), not unless you already have armies and no need for new things. I doubt they got any sales boost and if they did it died most instantly. The game does still have a fair number to subscribers though and I’m sure GW gets at least a piece of that. MMOs are easy money in that you can just cut back the customer service and bandwidth dependant on your sales (number of accounts) so Mythic will always make a profit no matter how small, and GW will get a piece of that at least.

I wonder if GW realizes that.

Reinholt
12-05-2009, 05:42
Regarding MMOs:

They have what is referred to as a network effect build into them. This means the more people who use them, the more people who will use them. Perhaps the best example of this is operating systems; Windows is so ubiquitous despite its many flaws precisely because people want to be compatible with everyone else.

Google is similar; as more users used the search engine, more people wanted to appear on the search engine, so you could find more there, so more users wanted to use the search engine, so...

You get the picture.

MMOs are the same (so is tabletop gaming, actually, something GW fails to realize, as their business strategy and pricing policy runs directly contrary to this); the more people who play, the more people who want to play.

So how do you break a network effect? You do something different. This is why I suspected WAR was doomed to failure from the start; it's still a medieval combat (with fantasy elements) grinding based MMO. It's WoW with a different appearance if you look at it from a very high level. I would argue AoC was like that as well; perhaps the most different of the MMOs of that vein was FFXI, but that's no shock, as the game is not American.

So what could break the MMO stranglehold that WoW has?

Something that is not at all like WoW. Video Games, like many kinds of technology and entertainment, move in fits and spurts. WoW is huge, and you aren't going to beat WoW with a game similar to WoW because it already has scale. To that end, a 40K MMO has a way greater chance to succeed, and an MMO that is less grind based and has a very different combat engine (another likely occurrence with a well-designed Sci-Fi MMO, as it will necessarily place a much greater emphasis on shooting) would also be more likely to succeed. WAR, which is very similar to WoW in many ways, was destined to be, at best, good but not great.

With that said, GW may be going a better direction in terms of licensing their IP with something like Dawn of War. The computer battle game dovetails nicely into the tabletop battle game, and vice versa... though a 40k MMO, inherently, seems to have more potential to me than a fantasy one. And you would, ironically, probably want a company without a history of making MMOs to make one; you need someone who will think differently about it, rather than making a game similar to all the other MMOs out there.

Give Valve a call.

;)

bigshep
12-05-2009, 09:34
I bought the collectors editon, and have just recently run out of subscription. I played on one of the many Uk servers. What initially killed it for me was lack of population. There are only so many times you can grind level 1 of a public quest to level up and get some nice gear.

Then the server got merged. Great pvp was back on, there were people in each tier and you could pvp and do scenarios most of the day, instead of the 6-9pm on the original server. I pressed /who and found 30 people in my zone, not two!

But again, I had wierd games times and my tier seemed to empty. So Again I was trying to solo public quests for gear. I went back to FPS, as I had instant gratification, people, fun and in 5 mins was doing ti all again.

My son (5yrs old) started to use my account, created his own charachters and loved it. Could just about read the quests, but when I showed the red bit ont he map he was off. He pvp'ed with the best of them (pwned by a 5 year old, how embarising). Unfortunatley he cried when my sub ran out, as all his charachters "died". I have printed him out some nice screen shots, so he is happy though.

Anyway SCIFI mmorpg. I played Tabula Rasa. I liked that, but my pc at the time was rubbish and could only just run it. The concept was nice, the shooting worked. I really enjoyed it, just had to unsub as my frame rate was diabolical. i think a 40k mmorpg could work, but it would need a lot of thought and work to make it so.

nuff said

Osbad
12-05-2009, 09:35
so Mythic will always make a profit no matter how small, and GW will get a piece of that at least.

The big question is whether Mythic recouped all their development costs from the sales revenue. If they were anticipating 3m subscribers and only got 0.75m then the odds are they didn't as they only generated 1/4 of the revenue they were hoping for. If Mythic didn't make a profit, and they had smart lawyers, GW wouldn't likely see much in terms of a licence fee. They'll likely get something, but not mega-bucks.

Netherghoul
12-05-2009, 09:53
well thanks to GOA (regarding the european front) I think they really messed up bigtime.
Also the (former) lack of an official forum was a nail in the coffin.
The game has tons of bugs, and still they are not fixed.

It's a pitty, I really looked forward to playing it, got the collector edition, did try to play for a while.
It had tons of potential, its just an utter shame due to lack of support, terrible performance issues and tons of game bugs they lost so many players.

really too bad, I did really love it tons.

Ultimate Life Form
12-05-2009, 12:30
:(@Fenlear, Reinholt, bigshep:

Yeah, your thoughts mirror mine. The reason why I started this thread is that I downloaded the game on Sunday and started a 10 days free trial account, and to say the least, Iīm not very satisfied.


I usually donīt play PC games, so I have little to compare it to, and thatīs why I was curious. The first problem I noticed is that there is a major graphic problem, that I frequently get a lag when moving in populated areas (NPC, you mind:p) and that the game likes to crash an awful lot. Now I donīt know if this is the general habit of WAR, or if my computer is just a little too weak for it, and I really donīt care anyway, but considering it could play WoW without a complaint, Iīm inclined to believe the further.

The second thing I noticed was that it did not only look similar to WoW except for being a bit darker, it did not only play like WoW, I got the feeling that in effect it WAS WoW - or at least tried to be. Proof of this is after 15m I could already play and control anything and felt almost at home. Since WoW bored me, I donīt think thatīs good news, and I donīt see the point of trying to be something they can never be. But then again maybe all MMOs or what they are called are the same.

Third thing I noticed, lack of players. In the starting area there were seven or eight running around, but as soon as I entered the wilderness, I was on my own. This night, I explored an entire RvR area, doing all the quests, without running into a single enemy player (or even a friendly one to begin with).

Also, I noticed the somewhat bland fighting system. Of course I havenīt seen much till now, but being a cutesy Gobbo Shaman, it basically comes down to spamming Morkīll fix it on your party - ALL THE TIME. Press button... Press button... Press button... hmm. I played a Night Elf Priest in WoW, and somehow I have the feeling he was a little more versatile.

Well, but thereīs good things as well: I think they perfectlycaught the feel of the Orcs! Itīs actually interesting running around an Orc encampment and finally seeing them alive and in motion! They are as brutal and wacky as can be, and I enjoy it!:p Their language is the coolest thing ever.

Their quests are just really greenskinnish, either! For example, the Goblin Wolfrider Boss wants his wolves fed, but is scared from the boars. So he orders you to kill a few boars and feed their meat to the wolves. After that, the Orc Boar Rider Boss notices there arenīt as many boars as used to be, and concludes they must have wandered off from hunger. To prevent this, he orders you to kill a few wolves to feed their meat to the boars!:p

I also really love the names of the areas, but especially the equipment. For example, my current weapon is a Stuntybashing Waaaghstick, and my shoes are Stuntybashing Morkyfeet!

And the spells are hilariously named, too, and really ooze Greenskin personality! My favorite so far is the healing spell "'ey, quit bleeding!"
It cracked me up to no end!:p

But I doubt my Greenskin enthusiasm alone will be enough to keep me to the game in the long run.

Cane
12-05-2009, 14:56
Great MMORPGs are like wine - they only get better with age. The only MMORPG that will ever compete with WOW is Blizzard's sequel to the game. Quite frankly there is no development team or publisher that has a reputation even in the same realm as Blizzard Entertainment in terms of high quality gaming. These guys also have the balls to cancel multimillion dollar investments like the never-released Starcraft Ghost video game if they think it fails to meet their standards. Here's hoping they release a Starcraft MMO of some kind as that would undoubtedly be successful and I'm more of a scifi geek than a sword and boarder.

Warhammer Online was just another rushed MMORPG that fails to even have half the customer service or post-release support as Blizzard. The concept of Warhammer was simply made better and more fun through the Warcraft franchise to the point where the average gamer would consider the overall Warhammer franchise as a crappy Warcraft knock-off. However it is likely that they made a profit but the question is what kind of margins and how long will the game last? WOW recently launched basically a mini-expansion with the Ulduar raid patch and there's only more big patches left in store and their "competition" has never exceeded the amount or quality of post-release content Blizzard delivers to strengthen their product.

GraveGuard
12-05-2009, 15:24
A major problem is actually the fluff and plot on ther High Elf Side. Its all in favour of the Druchii. As soon as you start everywhere in Ulthuan is invaded, Captured or destroyed. The Heros are all dead. And in rubbish ways aswell.
The High Elf classes are majorly underdeveloped and there are some problems with the Dark Elf Ones waswell. Like why are the Witch Elves now Assassins in play style.

Fenlear
12-05-2009, 17:03
Blizzard has become nothing but a monopoly; none of the original staff that made the things we love are even around anymore. WOW started to flop around midpoint Burning Crusade and the latest expansion didn't offer anything new at all, 1 new class after 5 years of playing is a big wup-tiddy-do. With the Starcraft 2 release coming up they made it clear that they are going to purposely withhold 3/4th of the game so that they can get you to buy a new box for each races campaign. So if you want to be able to chose any race for online play you’ll have to drop 200$ and I would not be surprised if they charge a monthly fee for battle.net on the game or made you have a WOW subscription just to access the pairing system. Blizzard has become in the video game business much what GW is in the mini business, a company with the sole intention of milking their customers dry.

As far as Valve ever making an MMO I don’t think it would ever happen. That’s about the one and only gaming company that is still ran and operated by gamers. It’s why they have their own distribution (steam.com) offering major discounts; it’s why said distribution system has it’s own server listing protocols that don’t cost anything; and it’s why all updates no matter how substantial never cost extra money. Charging monthly fees would be blasphemy to them. They’ve mocked XBL many times for charging a monthly fee for what their system, steam, does for free. On top of that they have made it quite clear that as successful as they are they do not want to expand at all, as they much prefer making the things they love and not having a marketing douche bag telling them what to make.

I would probably not want to see a 40K MMO as in all honestly no one was ever done a sci-fi MMO well. Space age just leave too many thing as being possible in games like MMOs and players are always left disappointed with what you wind up with; a game only 1/10th the scope that you expected. It would have to be a Blizzard sized production to even stand a chance and I wouldn’t sign up for Starcraft online when the talents all gone and Blizzard is just recycling the same crap over and over now.

Erloas
12-05-2009, 17:11
The big question is whether Mythic recouped all their development costs from the sales revenue. If they were anticipating 3m subscribers and only got 0.75m then the odds are they didn't as they only generated 1/4 of the revenue they were hoping for. If Mythic didn't make a profit, and they had smart lawyers, GW wouldn't likely see much in terms of a licence fee. They'll likely get something, but not mega-bucks.

I think Mythic has more then paid for the development costs. The whole estimate of 3 million subs was made by 1 single developer (Paul Barnett) who is very lovable but very prone to exaggeration and he was the only one who ever said that. Even that was only very near release when the hype was really big.
I think the more realistic numbers said they needed about 200-250k subs to be financial stable. Not numbers that were going to be drawing in a lot of investors, but enough to pay for the development and keep the game going. *however I think that was said before they joined EA and before they were spending a lot of money putting on huge displays at conventions around the world.
I think the most optimistic numbers of the realistic developers was 1million+, but likely less then 2million.

Ultimate Life Form
12-05-2009, 17:18
I would probably not want to see a 40K MMO as in all honestly no one was ever done a sci-fi MMO well. Space age just leave too many thing as being possible in games like MMOs and players are always left disappointed with what you wind up with; a game only 1/10th the scope that you expected. It would have to be a Blizzard sized production to even stand a chance and I wouldn’t sign up for Starcraft online when the talents all gone and Blizzard is just recycling the same crap over and over now.

Also, it is important to keep in mind that there is only so much customer potential. If Blizzard started World of Starcraft and possibly World of Diablo (which would have been far more logical and appealing than WoW in my opinion), they would in fact gain very little for it I suppose.

A person who spends 20 hrs a day in WoW cannot possibly spend another 20 hrs in WoS and another 20 hrs in WoD. I think there would be very few crazy enough to subscribe to all three at the same time.

Amnar
12-05-2009, 18:13
I played for about a week and then quit. At the end of the day, even though the world looks right, I found the actual combat system mind numbingly slow and boring. How could they develop a combat system that was duller than DAOC, which came out close to a decade ago? Age of Conan had the right idea for combat, but that franchise tanked due to bugs, horrible mismanagement and the wrong priorities.

Gazak Blacktoof
12-05-2009, 20:37
I'm guessing that now is probably a good time to start WAR, the free demo means there are probably more people just starting and the network effect already mentioned means that those people are more likely to stay as they'll ahve other people to game with.

I've never played an MMO but I'm going to give the ones with free trial a go over the summer and hopefully get a few friends to try it with me. I'm going to stay clear of WOW though as I don't find the imagery or the grind appealing, plus the graphics aren't as good as those of more recent games- if I'm goign to spend money and time looking at it I want something pretty.

Fingers crossed there wont be a subscription charge on diablo 3.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
12-05-2009, 23:01
Tbh I found the grind worse in WaR, especially now that WoW has cut back xp requirements all over the board to help folks get to the end game quicker. Although that has some issues in itself.

Lucifer216
12-05-2009, 23:58
I was in Beta and bought the collector's edition. I've now quit and resubbed to WoW, something I thought I'd never do. What basically did me in was:

A) overly simple classes
B) The economy just didn't feel as real to me
C) RvR basically involved either A) doing damage to a door for large periods of time, or B) running up to a flag and then going afk for 4 minutes.
D) The class balance was extremely out of wack (Warrior Priests were pretty much impossible to take down early on from the perspective of most other classes)

It's a real shame as at first I really loved the leveling through PvP, the scenarios etc. From what I've heard the game actually gets worse as you go through the tiers.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-05-2009, 11:25
Tbh I found the grind worse in WaR, especially now that WoW has cut back xp requirements all over the board to help folks get to the end game quicker. Although that has some issues in itself.

That's interesting, I've not seen grind mentioned with respect to WaR, I'll look into it.


From what I've heard the game actually gets worse as you go through the tiers.

That's a real problem as you don't experience those sorts of things in a 10 day trial.

Earthbeard
13-05-2009, 15:02
Didn't they have to drop like 40 servers because it was not nearly as successful as hoped?

They had to do it, as Open PVP requires decent number of players, having said players spread over 100 servers is not a good idea.

They basically opened too many servers at launch as the numbers that came were large, but like most MMO's the majority leave after free trails etc, so left a few empty servers.

The games doing good, busy servers (now consolidated), lots of bugs/issues fixed, it'll never be perfect, no game is.

Most people seemed to think it was a WOW killer - it never was, and never will be, but in it's PVP niche it's by far the biggest MMO i think.

Earthbeard
13-05-2009, 15:11
Tbh I found the grind worse in WaR, especially now that WoW has cut back xp requirements all over the board to help folks get to the end game quicker. Although that has some issues in itself.

The only grind in WAR is renown ranks after 40, but seeing as thats part of the end game, never really affects you.

Levelling up via PVP, so no questing etc, is a pure dream to players like me. PVP goes quiet, out comes the pve questing.

I know you left the game due to it's more pvp focused elements, but thats what the game is.

It appeals to pvp orientated players more than others.

Bregalad
13-05-2009, 16:00
I can't stress enough the positive effect the game has on my Warhammer tabletop experience. The designers made every effort to design the whole world of several races including war camps, (chaos infested) villages, battle fields and landscapes. You can now scratchbuild exceptional Dark Eldar camps by copying the designs from the website. Ingame you can walk Altdorf or Ellyrion and know where your troops come from. You can even have a drink with Gotrek. Playing your favorite character like slayers, fire mages or Squig herders is fun as well and very characterful.Most of it available in the free trial (not all areas are accessible to low level characters of course).

Ultimate Life Form
13-05-2009, 16:07
I can't stress enough the positive effect the game has on my Warhammer tabletop experience. The designers made every effort to design the whole world of several races including war camps, (chaos infested) villages, battle fields and landscapes. You can now scratchbuild exceptional Dark Eldar camps by copying the designs from the website. Ingame you can walk Altdorf or Ellyrion and know where your troops come from. You can even have a drink with Gotrek. Playing your favorite character like slayers, fire mages or Squig herders is fun as well and very characterful.Most of it available in the free trial (not all areas are accessible to low level characters of course).

I agree! I agree so much! Itīs wonderful (well an Orc camp maybe isnīt as wonderful as that which you describe...)

And I do not regret giving it a try. In fact, I recommend it just for his reason. But what if your favorite character would be a Saurus Warrior or a Vampire, as in my case? Altdorf and Ellyrion tickle me not as much as Itza and Drakenhof would.:(

If it hadnīt been for Greenskins, I had never tried.

Fenlear
13-05-2009, 17:13
Tbh I found the grind worse in WaR, especially now that WoW has cut back xp requirements all over the board to help folks get to the end game quicker. Although that has some issues in itself.

That is the main reason I quit WOW. Easy leveling is NOT a good thing. When a player makes it to the highest level I expect them to be a master of their class, not just some idiot that auto-attacked for 15 hours straight never learning a dam thing. WOW also got rid of all the key/attunement requirements for raid dungeons allowing way too many people with no clue into the scene. It really did make raiding impossible as the percentage of people that knew what they were doing become extremely low. Making things hard makes people learn. Their use to be a time in these games, Everquest, where you could assume a PUG knew what they were doing because they couldn't even possibly make it that high in level if they didn't. In that game you would go down in level if you died so it become well know server wide if you were the sort of fool causing people to lose their exp!

War is still an easy grind, it’s just not the instantly to 70 grind that WOW has made their game. As much as they’ve stripped the 1-70 game though I don’t see why they don’t just let people make level 70 characters and just skip right to the latest expansion. There’s no longer any challenge or even any point to the 1-70 game anymore, all group enemy areas were turned into solo areas and an 80 tank can run you through anything pre northland.

I’ll still say WAR is the best MMO option right now and if you play MMO at all this is the one. It’s just rather sad that this passes as the best right now.

Llew
13-05-2009, 17:40
That is the main reason I quit WOW. Easy leveling is NOT a good thing. When a player makes it to the highest level I expect them to be a master of their class, not just some idiot that auto-attacked for 15 hours straight never learning a dam thing. WOW also got rid of all the key/attunement requirements for raid dungeons allowing way too many people with no clue into the scene. It really did make raiding impossible as the percentage of people that knew what they were doing become extremely low. Making things hard makes people learn. ...

Wierd. I always assumed that people who are really focused on player skill choose toplay first-person shooters, since that's based much more on player skill. I assume that people who play MMORPG's are there because they enjoy playing a game and the levelling conceit allows "progress" whether or not the player skill has necessarily improved.

And all the good players I've met have been in raiding guilds. There's a built-in social structure that lets good players find each other. Generally the only people who have trouble raiding either a) have a life that doesn't fit the structure of a raiding guild, b) lack the social skills to get along with people in a coordinated effort, or c) aren't really as good at playing as they think. The sheer amount of add-on tools to measure whether the character fits their chosen class/raid role is staggering, and makes it pretty easy to determine if they fall into the last class of player.

Looking for skilled players in a PUG is like looking for a cheap mini at GW: you may find one, but it's a fluke, not par for the course.

You'd be better off taking WoW to task for the gear-checks being a more important aspect of many of their raids than actual player skill. (Although I hear this is improving in recent months.)

Morathi's Darkest Sin
13-05-2009, 18:54
The only grind in WAR is renown ranks after 40, but seeing as thats part of the end game, never really affects you.

Levelling up via PVP, so no questing etc, is a pure dream to players like me. PVP goes quiet, out comes the pve questing.

I know you left the game due to it's more pvp focused elements, but thats what the game is.

It appeals to pvp orientated players more than others.


Well that was the main problem, I like PvP but I don't want to do it all the time. Leveling without it in WaR was a bad grind, and Mythic acknowledged that when the modified the second tier XP ratio to make up for those not pvping constantly.

Its a good game don't get me wrong, and I'm glad you like it, but unless you are doing alot of pvp, the PvE grind is without doubt worse than WoW's.


Although to be honest as I've said before my main issue isn't with the ammount of pvp, although that didn't help me leaving. It was with the lies given my Mythic staff at various conventions/events leading up till about 3-5months before release when ever they where asked how much PvE was in the game.

Had they had not kept making the suggestion it was about 50-50, I would have saved myself the cost of two collectors Eds.



edit @Fenlear - thats why I noted 'Although that has some issues in itself' and tbh yeah I can see the arguement, but then there are still plenty of players who having been playing pre TBC or from TBC and know what they are doing quite comfortably. Yeah you get players who you wonder 'did they just pick this char up from ebay 10mins ago' but then I'd assume thats similar in most MMO's, WoW has more as it has larger numbers.

As Nintendo has proved in the last couple of years, like it or not; Casual is the way to go. WoW is the casual MMO, great if you just want to prat about like myself, enjoy silly things like the heaps of various Mounts, vanity pets etc and I'm still finding it fun 2yrs plus and going.

Fenlear
13-05-2009, 19:01
PUGS have only gotten bad as the games have been made easier, and I'm well aware of how a raid guild works (I was main tank up to Sunwell when I was playing). The problem was that vets leave and the new recruits weren’t even trainable, as they didn't even have to do all the dungeons, heroics, and all those annoying attunement quests that would require you to go through all those areas and learn how to play before moving onto 25 man groups.

Gear checks become another problem. While most could figure out you needed T4 gear before a T5 raid most didn’t know the difference between PVE and PVP stats. Not many tanks had much of a clue what stats they should be going for (parry, expertise), and because there would always be at least one idiot (typically the healer) that thinks stacking health is good they wouldn’t want to learn (this is how most groups get into the habit of bringing too many healers). Most DPS wouldn’t want to hear about crit being for PVP; it does double damage but 4x the threat, raising base damage or haste is what you want in PVE. Most people relied on DPS meters which don’t calculate things for **** and trained them horribly. The meter may tell you your DPS went up 10% even though to do so you ignored an important buff/debuff ability that would have raised the entire groups’ damage by 5% each (a 125% loss because a meter told you that you personally went up 10%). Most mods tend to train people wrong and the only decent one was bossmods so the ones not paying too good of attention would get an alarm telling them to wake up and run. Back in Everquest I could lay out the math for people and they’d either listen or do the math themselves. Now people are so lazy and set on doing their own thing I could tell them 4 + 4 = 8 and they’d be like, “Na man, I think its 9 and refuse to hear otherwise”

This all comes down to the ease to leveling and access to end game. When you play a solo game for months focused solely on your own advancement, doing nothing but auto attack, it’s hard to get such people to snap out of it and start thinking as a group, where the group advancement comes before you getting to do what you want or playing the way you would like to. I can’t speak for the latest expansion but this is why raiding really died in BC and any good players went the PVP only route, where the most people you had to convince to do the right thing was 4 instead of 24.

I may sound like a hard ass here but this is why we made it through Sunwell before dispersing where as most guilds never got past T5, I made every player in every raid spec, gem, and enchant exactly how they needed to; not how they wanted to.

As for why I play MMO over FPS, it’s really simple, I like to outthink my opponent, not out twitch them. Strategy doesn’t mean a dam thing in FPS. No matter how great of a strategy you come up with you can find a player that’s so twitchy that he’ll spin around in .00000000001s and head shot you long before you can click your mouse button. I do enjoy the occasional shooter but I’ve long stopped playing online. You either dedicate 8 hours a day to improving your twitch or you lose, strategizing is pointless.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
13-05-2009, 19:14
Depends what you want from the game Fenlear, I don't really raid at all, as thats not what interests me. Playing the characters (I have 10 alts on my main server, 5 lvl 60 or higher inc two 80 so far and a 76 DK) chatting with guildies and collecting odd stuff is what interests me, and going by the numbers I'm obviously not alone.

Of course I still collect gear to a degree as I like to have some sort of a chance in pvp, but I don't look into it much. We either kill the boss or don't, life's too short to worry about anything else. :)

xinsanityx
13-05-2009, 19:54
I played this game for about a month. Alot of people (myself included) dropped it because of a bug that caused very capable machines to lag when playing it. In my group of 20 people that switched from WoW to WAR that first month, 7 of us had to stop playing because of this bug. All of us had new computers and were getting frame rates of about 5 fps. Mythic would not acknowledge the problem and constantly said it was on the client end and not the server end. This problem was widespread and reports of it were popping up all over internet forums but mythic did nothing to resolve it.

Just from my experience I'd say Mythic probably lost about 25% of it's initial client base to this bug and the way they handled it, and I know I alone told at least 5 people that were looking to get into it not to buy it because of this bug. I heard they finally fixed it about 2 months in but by then it was too late. Mythic shot itself in the foot. If they had acknowledged and fixed this bug within the first week or 2 I think they'd be sitting at 1-2 million subscribers right now. No one wanted to buy it because they couldn't be sure if it would work on their machine.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
13-05-2009, 20:06
Thinking about it while working on the floor a minute ago, I think my previous CE comment was a bit much if I'm honest. Because I enjoyed the game, I loved the fact I was playing a Druchii, I loved the Greenskin area, I liked the classes and most of what we where doing up until the end of the second tier. I don't think I regret that first month at all.

My strong issue was and still is pvp was too much for my tastes, by all means make it a focus, but I can't see why they wouldn't have made more PvE available. It only seems to have hurt themselves by not doing a more balanced endgame.



Oh and aye, my wife had a similar problem xinsanityx, we had made the call that we'd rough out the game for another few months see if it got better at higher lvl, see if Mythic announced any new content added to the PvE, but her computer had been struggling from day one. By the end of the first month is was barely playing it, and even though she disliked the pvp content. She had joined me in several Scenarios, but it was her Comp issues combined with our lower alts finding the PQ's suddenly impossible to compleate 3weeks in due to lack of players which made our minds up.

For me its much more of a painful missed opertunity, than disdain for the game. I wanted it to be awesome, but it isn't as yet.

Although saying all of that, I think we may try it again for a month should Skaven ever enter the game. From what she's mentioned I think she'd risk the pvp for a crack at playing the ratmen. :)

Fenlear
14-05-2009, 00:22
Not to defend Mythic’s lack of fixing bugs but lag is nothing new to an MMO. It's the nature of how the games work. If you honestly wanted to eliminate lag completely you would have to cancel every subscription in which the person had a not so great connection or computer, as it only takes 1 person online with a bad line to mess it up for everyone. No company has been willing to do this. I suppose they could try to offer special servers that require people to have good computers and good connections but in all reality no one would want to play on any other server. If their connection/computer didn't fit the bill they would just cancel, hence why they don't so this. On a side note this is why some people feel the need to give infinite **** to those with bad connections, not so much to be mean but they really are just ruining it for everyone else.

Same goes with how role playing servers work too. If you even try to enforce the server’s role playing rules people just get mad and cancel subscriptions (no one likes to be punished in their form of entertainment, even when they know they are wrong). So customer service always leaves it up to the players to make it role play, but there is always more douche bags wanting to mess it up then there are people wanting to make it work. So in 2 months time a role playing server is realistically a normal server.

PS IF your still playing WOW you really are an addict and you need to seek help. The only people left in that game are those that just can't let go and most of which will admit their adiction, but the fact that you have sooo many high level characters without getting more fully into the end game speaks for itself.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
14-05-2009, 02:16
Nah not really, I have been playing over two years, and on top of that I haven't really brought or played any other games, I think four maybe five total over that time. WoW gets my game time in the week thats all. I wouldn't agree that I play it more than if I was playing other games. Plus when I do occasionally play other games I'll stop playing WoW, so its nothing that worries me. I seriosuly doubt I'm playing anything close to what the Hardcore raiders are playing. Thats addiction. ;)


Also the statement 'the only people left' is a little hopeful as an anti WoW postion isn't it. I mean you are still seeing new players all the time, I know of several players who have got into the game this year personally, so I think its still growing tbh.

As I said, what Blizz has done has tapped into a casual mindset, by doing so they're always going to have big numbers.

Fenlear
14-05-2009, 02:31
[QUOTE=Morathi's Darkest Sin;3572262]
Also the statement 'the only people left' is a little hopeful as an anti WoW postion isn't it. I mean you are still seeing new players all the time, I know of several players who have got into the game this year personally, so I think its still growing tbh.
QUOTE]

Subscription rates have dropped considerably (though its still ridicules).

You have WOW references in your signature and you claim your not an addict, I'm done.

GraveGuard
14-05-2009, 03:05
Speaking with other friends who played Warhammer Online and have quit I've come to some conclusions about some of the problems with the game.

Mythic/Warhammer Online isn't quite sure who it wants to appeal to. - I like others were hoping for and Expecting given what Mythic/GOA/whoever were saying was a truthful depiction of the Warhammer World to RP/play and RPG game in. The problem was for Warhammer players(as in tabletop etc) there were obvious problems/contradictions with the backround/fluff, Plot and gaming style straight off. - just look at the responses on Fantasy Army Forums when the plot was explained, and kept going after that and then got worse when people actually got in the game. This all goes into the problem of the lack of depth, interesting, different, good quests.
There were other problems with this area aswell. Fantasy Players were expecting the game to have a darker look to it than is currently has, yes is a bit dark/grim, well darker than WOW but not enough.
Certain races were rushed and it shows, quite a bit more in some places than others.

Templar Ben
14-05-2009, 03:07
So if someone has a WOW reference they are an addict?

I agree.

You are done.

Ultimate Life Form
14-05-2009, 03:24
Now, now! Play nice, people!:)

We donīt want this interesting thread closed for trolling or off topic reasons, it already borders on the edge of being transferred to PC forum! Please see to it that we have a little less WoW and a little more WAR here.:)



The problem was for Warhammer players(as in tabletop etc) there were obvious problems/contradictions with the backround/fluff, Plot and gaming style straight off. - just look at the responses on Fantasy Army Forums when the plot was explained, and kept going after that and then got worse when people actually got in the game.

Would you mind explaining this last bit a little? I havenīt encountered any major contradictions until now. However, I too feel it is a problem that the game is too bright and too family friendly at times. When I saw the cool trailer where the Chaos Warrior bashed the Sigmarite Priestīs head with a hammer, I thought it was pretty hardcore, and it instantly appealed to me because I found WoW too boring, but the actual game is pretty harmless. There are no severed limbs, no gushing brains, no splattering entrails, heck, things donīt even bleed when you kill them. While I understand they want to keep the game open to all audiences, I feel it doesnīt match the Warhammer world too well. Seeing how in the Warcraft series everything died a gruesome death and after a fierce battle the ground was soaked in blood and littered with decaying corpses which no one had a problem with, Iīm actually surprised by this new level of lightheartedness.

lorelorn
14-05-2009, 09:33
When I saw the cool trailer where the Chaos Warrior bashed the Sigmarite Priestīs head with a hammer, I thought it was pretty hardcore, and it instantly appealed to me because I found WoW too boring, but the actual game is pretty harmless.

That was a trailer for Warhammer: Mark of Chaos, a different game.

I played Warhammer Online for five months, and I enjoyed my time, but ultimately got distracted by other things that were more important to me. Having to pay a flat fee every month doesn't appeal to me (it was my first and probably last MMOG) since I don't play very often, 3-4 hours per week max. If not for this aspect of my particular situation I would probably still be playing. I've never been a fan of the idea of buying a game and then paying a rental on it, but that's not a reflection on the game's quality, that's just my gaming preference.

I found the game to be of a very high standard, true to and respectful of the Warhammer background. You can discover a lot of very interesting stuff by simply exploring the landscape around you.

The questing was well done, and the scenarios are good fun when you feel like a break from questing, and if you hate questing you can simply do scenarios all day long and advance more quickly to boot. The RvR fired up once they got the rewards going, and they were still adding new content last month when I stopped playing.

The game is easy to get into (speaking as a MMOG noob) but the in-game and booklet instructions are useless as they provide you with info you don't need, or info written for someone who already speaks the MMOG info. I don't think those people are reading the booklet.

For example accessing group or warband chat is done at the click of a mouse, accessing region chat requires some kind of command. Neither the in-game help nor booklet tells you what that command is. I guess it was intuitive to those familiar with the genre, not to me though. It became increasingly annoying the more I played, not having easy access to a list of commands.

I didn't hit the 'grind' until my second run through with characters, when I found myself just wanting to get to level 20 and get my mount. Stopping play after 30 minutes and feeling like all you did was work towards something without getting there is not a feeling that gets you back on quickly.

I'd recommend the game to anyone who likes Warhammer, simply because I think they did a great job creating the Warhammer World online. I would only add a word of warning - if you think the point of the game is to hit the level cap as quickly as possible you will be disappointed. This game is about the journey, not the destination.

Ultimate Life Form
14-05-2009, 11:20
That was a trailer for Warhammer: Mark of Chaos, a different game.


Well, that surprises me, since it clearly say Warhammer Online at the end. Just checked this again. Did they reuse it?

I too am not a fan of the concept of having to pay to be able to play, at least not considering I have next to no time to play yet have to fork over a fortune. Itīs the same reason I quit WoW. I understand they keep working on it all the time, and Iīd probably pay 2 or 3€ per month without giving it a second thought, but not the ludicrous fee they charge.

Hellebore
14-05-2009, 11:31
It's similar to WoW in the same way WoW was similar to Everquest and Dark Age of Camelot.

I'm still playing. Have a level 40 iron breaker, and half a dozen other characters up to level 25.

Each to their own. I played wow for a little while when it first came out and quit.

I enjoy the game.

Hellebore

Sureshot05
14-05-2009, 11:34
Warhammer online has two trailers, one of which features a Warrior priest. Mark of Chaos also has a trailer which features a warrior priest.

WAR's first trailer featured three match-ups. The first was troll slayer vs Orc, then it swithces to elf vs witch elf, and then finally to chaos warrior vs priest.

MoC features an empire warband marching through the woods led by a priest which gets ambushed by a large group of chaos warriors.

Hope that clarifies things.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-05-2009, 12:49
Its a good game don't get me wrong, and I'm glad you like it, but unless you are doing alot of pvp, the PvE grind is without doubt worse than WoW's.

Though its good if they've addressed this as a balance issue for those that don't like PvP (or RvR) I thought that was what WAR was about. You go and do quests for the story and probably some fancy loot but the main effort of the game was supposed to be RvR from the outset.

I guess that for those that don't like RvR it wont have the appeal that WoW does as that certainly appears more quest focused. WAR seems to be built more like a "traditional" PC game with a limited solo play element (quests in this case) and then an unlimited multiplayer element (RvR). I certainly find playing against people more entertaining than fighting stupid bots repetitively. If I can "grind" by effectively playing a war against other players its probably not what I'd call a grind.

It sounds to me like WoW is better for having made all levels of the game accessible to all players. It must have been irksome before to be unable to play large parts of the game without investing hundreds of hours and along with cost was what put me off starting.

As I said, I'll try to give all the free to try MMOs a go this summer.

GraveGuard
14-05-2009, 13:17
Would you mind explaining this last bit a little? I havenīt encountered any major contradictions until now. However, I too feel it is a problem that the game is too bright and too family friendly at times. When I saw the cool trailer where the Chaos Warrior bashed the Sigmarite Priestīs head with a hammer, I thought it was pretty hardcore, and it instantly appealed to me because I found WoW too boring, but the actual game is pretty harmless. There are no severed limbs, no gushing brains, no splattering entrails, heck, things donīt even bleed when you kill them. While I understand they want to keep the game open to all audiences, I feel it doesnīt match the Warhammer world too well. Seeing how in the Warcraft series everything died a gruesome death and after a fierce battle the ground was soaked in blood and littered with decaying corpses which no one had a problem with, Iīm actually surprised by this new level of lightheartedness.

Sure no problem. First would be the storyline, which completely replaces the Storm of Chaos (okay they explained that is was an alttimeline), The Swordmaster and White Lion are in the wrong job, they should have their classes swapped round. The Witch Elf is basically Berserker in Warhammer yet in Warhammer Online she's an Assassin.
Basically its not that they made up new fluff it's that they twisted/altered the established fundamentals to make a game and from a Fluff perspective makes no sense. A Prime example is the Tower Of Hoeth, in WOnline its been captured/taken by the Druchii which could never possibly happen. Not only that but they have completely taken over all of Ulthuan which should be impossible. As a High Elf player you are screwed from the start.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-05-2009, 13:25
The High Elves have almost been subjugated by the Dark Elves and lost almost the entirety of their kingdom before, its not a big stretch by any means.

Why would they invent an assassin for dark elves, when they already have them? I agree that seems rather screwy.

Azhrarn
14-05-2009, 13:31
You all seem to have forgotten that a 40k MMO is actually already in development, and apparently scheduled for a 2012 (financial year) release.

http://www.gamershell.com/companies/thq/336088.html
for the press release.

http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009-04-04/20090404224207828.shtml
THQ main franchise release schedule.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-05-2009, 13:34
That's not really relevant to the current performance of WAR or how it compares to other currently available MMOs.

Azhrarn
14-05-2009, 13:49
That's not really relevant to the current performance of WAR or how it compares to other currently available MMOs.

True, but plenty of 40k MMO comments, which is why I linked that.

As for how WAR is doing, it's holding steady.
Turning a very decent profit and making enough to keep development going.
EVE has been doing the same for 6 years, and has actually matched WAR in subscriber numbers recently.
(300k subs and slowly climbing as it has done for the last 6 years)

But in its current state WAR can keep going for a very long time, assuming that a substantial chunk of the profit is invested back into development for the game. From there it can slowly grow.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
14-05-2009, 15:20
Subscription rates have dropped considerably (though its still ridicules).

You have WOW references in your signature and you claim your not an addict, I'm done.

Okay my last word on this as I don't want to derail the thread, I have to say I wasn't sure what the rates are tbh, Blizz keeps saying they are going up so who knows and we all know companies have a habit of bending figures, so I'll conceed that one.

The addict comment due to my sig barely deserves a mention as its basically laughable, however just for the sake of conversation. I have sigs on other forums that say I'm a GW fan, didn't seem a lot of point using that here as I'm obviously a GW fan by being here and by my chosen username.
I also use I'm a Ipswich Town fan elsewhere, Denver Broncos fan, and on Facebook I've joined a fair few 'I'm a fan' groups. Doesn't make me an addict in any of them, bit of an odd comment if I'm honest.



To throw some thought into the original question. I would probably agree they are making enough money to continue as there are. Also I am sure GW is seeing some kinda reward from that, although I am concerned they are in bed with EA. As EA aren't exactly a forgiving publisher/backer as others have found to their cost over the years. Also why I raised the mild worry of how succsesful KotoR MMO is later in the year, if EA pulled back could Mythic run it alone?
Plus as someone else said there are a fair few big MMO's due soon, which are all unlikely to do much, if any damage to WoW. Leaving only games like AoC and WaR to be worried of loosing more numbers due to the continued technical problems they are suffering.

I personally have no vested interest in WaR going down, rather I still hope it comes back and adds bucket loads of new content that might make me try it again. I might have mis-worded my position as I don't have any problem with pvp, I do plenty in WoW, and enjoyed all of the Scearios I did play while in WaR. Sadly my wife is not a pvp fan and I play MMO's to be with her, so unless more PvE content is brought into WaR, I can't see me returning for long, which is a big disapointment for me. Although after saying all of that, I do like PvE more than PvP, I'm just more of a bit of an all rounder. I want both sides of the cake, and even though WoW's PvP isn't great, it isn't terrible either and fufills my needs. WaR didn't have enough PvE for me at the end of the day.

I also do have to wonder what Mythic was thinking, PvP is great fun, but playing on your own on occasion, adventuring and the PvE experience is just as important. They knew that as well, at every convention/event video I have seen over the two years leading up to its release they had folks asking will there be plenty of this as well as the pvp. Yet they still went for mostly pvp, and to be frank I feel the game has the numbers it has for that reason.

To me thats seems a crazy idea. Especially considering the rich and detailed background and the Warhammer RPG. Definately a case of it could have been amazing and I wanted it to be, so I'm kinda burned out that it isn't.

It is an odd position to be in In I am sure.

ashc
14-05-2009, 16:12
I have only recently (in the last month) picked up playing MMO's and decided I would play one and stick with it. I went with WoW due to the 'network effect' of a high proportion of my friends owning accounts (amusingly they were all in a bit of a lull of inactivity on it until i caved in and played, now they are all back and busy as ever!) and the better PvE experience over PvP, as PvP is something that just does not interest me at all. Although I have a greater emotional attachment to the IP of WAR, I chose WoW for the gameplay.

Just to give some opinion from a relative newbie to MMOs who had to make the decision.

Ash

Templar Ben
14-05-2009, 16:18
I never liked PvP. I played EQ back in the late 90's and took several characters up to 50. PvP was just annoying as you would be on to get something done and some other player would attack you. My primary was a ShadowKnight and I won far more than I lost but it was just the annoyance factor.

I won't get into the apparent mental age of those that only want to play PvP. I had a couple of friends that were that way and it was clear.

ashc
14-05-2009, 16:26
I never liked PvP. I played EQ back in the late 90's and took several characters up to 50. PvP was just annoying as you would be on to get something done and some other player would attack you. My primary was a ShadowKnight and I won far more than I lost but it was just the annoyance factor.

I won't get into the apparent mental age of those that only want to play PvP. I had a couple of friends that were that way and it was clear.

This is pretty much my view/experiences on PvP, feels more like a contest of waving certain parts of the anatomy more than anything else to me, and I don't need to do that to make myself feel better.

Templar Ben
14-05-2009, 16:30
You can read posts in this thread and see that as well.

Fenlear
14-05-2009, 18:08
I don’t see why people think the game looks too bright and kiddy. GW really did give the thumbs up on EVERY model, 3D object, and color scheme used in the game. Warhammer is a fairly bright world compared to 40K and GW has always made it that way, despite most adults favoring Warhammer over 40K. The game definitely looks like Warhammer; it just plays like DAOC 2.0

As far as the lack of good PVE, as has been said the game was suppose to be all about RvR. One of the main questions asked before release was whether or not it would be possible to level up without doing any PVE at all, as this is what the majority of the people looking at WAR wanted. I still think a good dungeon system should have been put into place but solo questing is something I think the majority of MMO players everywhere are sick of. You can only stand to read repetitive generic stories telling you to kill 10 easy things so many times.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
14-05-2009, 18:37
Aye I'd assume they haven't been through the Empire/Chaos area, as that place is anything but kiddie friendly. In fact it was that bad me and my wife made the decesion while playing,that the few times we'd play with the boys around. We weren't allowed to be in the Chaos area, due to bodies, style of the place etc. Looked stunning though.

I can't argue with the look though, the Ork/Dwarf area was brilliant as well, I'd say the weakest was Ulthuan, but it had enough character to be passable, although I did think it was the least worked on of the three pair ups.

Oh and I agree that question came up a lot as well, but the 'how much PvE' question came up just as often in the vids I've seen. Its a shame as I really liked the fact you lvl'd up in PvP, hell killed twinks stone dead for one, and thats not a bad thing at all.

Ultimate Life Form
14-05-2009, 18:42
I don’t see why people think the game looks too bright and kiddy. GW really did give the thumbs up on EVERY model, 3D object, and color scheme used in the game. Warhammer is a fairly bright world compared to 40K and GW has always made it that way, despite most adults favoring Warhammer over 40K. The game definitely looks like Warhammer; it just plays like DAOC 2.0


I didnīt critizise the models (which look great), I only think it looks too clean and tidy for a world constantly ravaged by war. There is no undergrowth whatsoever in the forests (at least those Iīve seen) and not too many trees to begin with, so Iīm more under the impression of walking through a park than exploring an unknown area. Everyone manages to keep their armor as shiny and flawless as it was on the first day,and all warriors are very distinguished and dedicate utmost care to their hair and looks (obviously, they shower 5 times a day).

Where I would have expected a little more flash and color are the spells which manage to look outright boring. Obviously, they got it backwards.

With all this I could live, but the complete lack of any kind of gore is that which really pisses me off. Itīs unrealistic, itīs boring, and it actually makes kills less satisfying (at least to me). When the enemy looks like they go to sleep instead of dying, I donīt find it very exciting. I donīt say I wanted this game to be rated 18+, which obviously had been counterproductive, but I think in the grimdark world of Warhammer, such blatant censorship is misplaced. If I want a familiy friendly comic world, Iīll return to WoW.

However, there is a Dwarf corpse in Da Stump that looks really nasty. I liked it...

Morathi's Darkest Sin
14-05-2009, 20:09
Ah I see what you are saying, although I think the undergrowth and wear/tear on models would be more drags on an already lag heavy experience. It would look cool though, although I can't think of many games that incorporate such a system due to the resources needed.

The Gore Issue is a tough one, and I think it is as you point out mostly due to avoiding that 18 rating, I'm sure GW wouldn't allow It anyways. More realisitc would have been interesting, especially when you consider the wound system in the RPG, but any level of gore above what it has already pushes it ever closer to the adult rating. Hell I heard the German version was already modifed as it was due to their stricter rating system.

Fenlear
14-05-2009, 20:46
Ya the lags bad enough. I think they made it look too good as is when they wanted 300 vs. 300 battles. Even good computers need to go to low settings in oRvR.

Crovax20
14-05-2009, 21:20
Well the game got me started on the hobby. And that is what GW is hoping for, that the games will draw in more people for the table top.

selone
15-05-2009, 00:18
It's brave of them to focus on the Pvp aspect though i could see why as they were afraid of tackling the juggernaut that is WoW straight on. Though I must admit as a former one time hardcore WoW player a more pvp orientated game might convince me to play a MMO, that is until diablo 3/bloodbowl come out.

Fenlear
15-05-2009, 06:44
The market clearly wanted a PVP focused game, the PVE love of this forum is not a good representation of the average our there. A WOW poll 6 months before WAR release put 2/3 of their subscribers as PVP only.

Morathi's Darkest Sin
15-05-2009, 10:50
I doubt any poll on the planet would give a concrete 100% view of a peoples view as most folks are either oblivious to the places they happen or ignore them. People playing a online game would in all likelyhood give some of the worst percentage rates out there as most don't even use the official forums.

The main problem with that anyway is most hardcore PvPers in WoW now consider the Arena their PvP banner bearer. So WaR was never going to live up to what they wanted, only those who experienced the true world PvP in WoW before TBC would appeciate what Mythic have done.

Its sad really but I think thats one of the big issues some folks would have had with the game.

Mireadur
15-05-2009, 13:15
Very fun game for 2 or 3 months. Will begin sucking afterwards, and theres nothing you can do about it... The normal thing is that your brain begins to make you puke when you think about WaR after that time.

ashc
15-05-2009, 13:58
Very fun game for 2 or 3 months. Will begin sucking afterwards, and theres nothing you can do about it... The normal thing is that your brain begins to make you puke when you think about WaR after that time.

Yes but more important than this opinion of it is *why* you feel like that after 2 or 3 months, would like to hear.

Ash

DarkstarSabre
15-05-2009, 16:42
Yes but more important than this opinion of it is *why* you feel like that after 2 or 3 months, would like to hear.

Ash


In a nutshell?

Because the developers are doing a very poor job with the game design and balance. The game engine is choppy enough as is (the Oblivion engine) and cannot cope with large scale oRvR without slowing to a crawl. Class mechanics and counterparts are askew and they seem to have little idea of the nature of balance - reducing resistances, increasing RDPS damage AND allowing them to stack AoE abilities did not create a fun or balanced game for anyone who played melee.

The game still is lacking some of the content promised, there is very little character customisation, the balance is still skewed and finally....

The endgame is disappointing. Altdorf is not fun. It is not epic. It is a tragic, poorly designed RvR scenario that heavily favours the defenders and doesn't really even reward you for having got that far.

Fenlear
15-05-2009, 17:13
If WAR was made off of the Oblivion engine then it was a HUGE conversion. There’s absolutely nothing similar about how these graphics engines look or feel. WAR does have a LOT of similarities graphics wise to their last game DAOC, which well predates the Oblivion engine. I’m fairly certain they made the game based off of that.

As far as the poll on players WOW time, it was a forced pop up that appeared on every active level 70s screen. So unless people flat out lied, and I don’t think they would as this poll came about from PVP players complaining that they shouldn’t have to pay 15 a month when most of that was going into PVE development, I’d say the poll was pretty accurate. Keep in mind it was level 70s only and pertained to what they did in the end game.

Without remembering it exactly it was around:

40%: PVP only

30%: PVP focused

15%: socializing or playing alts

10%: a bit of everything

5%: raiding

They never did lower rates for PVP only players, which they really should have when they put up the poll to prove players wrong in the first place. Rather they made false promises about how they put just as much into PVP and they then made the best PVP cloaks available only through PVE tokens to force people into more of the game. I can’t say it got people raiding, more like caused endless broken KZ groups.

Mireadur
15-05-2009, 18:01
Yes but more important than this opinion of it is *why* you feel like that after 2 or 3 months, would like to hear.

Ash

Basically what Darkstarsabre said. But i will add that those 2-3 months are the time needed to totally get burned out with the few PvE content and with the endless repetitive Siege system.

Once you begin geting bored at the content it is when you start to realize (and be bugged) about the multiple balance issues in the game, etc.

I still recommend the game as a 1-3 months entertaiment though. Just dont get too many ties with it ;)

Fenlear
15-05-2009, 18:36
The end game is indeed repetitive as hell. You just attack/defend the same keeps until the end of time and stagey doesn't make any difference. It all comes down to which side brought the most people and they win. Granted WOW PVP gets really repetitive too but with so much going into continuously balancing the classes and arena matches fixing the amount of players on each side it’s a lot easier to get into the competitive spirit.