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View Full Version : Was the Horus Heresy an absolute Chaos victory?



djinn8
11-05-2009, 22:30
In False Gods Horus is shown a vision of the future while he is in the warp. This vision is of the "present" 41st millenium (where the Imperum defeted the Traitor Legions) and implys that the Chaos gods both knew the outcome and desired it. This is further backed up by the revelations in Legion.

Chaos managed to put the number one pretender to their throne into undeath; halted the Great Crusade and allowed the Imperium to become besieged; spread superstition and religion throughout the Imperium; and destroyed the Human Webway, meaning they can just sit back and wait for the warp to break through the golden throne... that is if humanities psychic evolution dosn't do the job first.

Is there anything that could be considered a human victory, or was the Horus Heresy an absolute Chaos victory?

ambrosehlbiercemencken
11-05-2009, 22:40
Well if Horus had won that fight against the emperor instead of the imperial cult we'd have the cult of the chaos gods be practised on a million worlds. Sounds even more chaosy than what we got.

Maidel
11-05-2009, 22:50
Well if Horus had won that fight against the emperor instead of the imperial cult we'd have the cult of the chaos gods be practised on a million worlds. Sounds even more chaosy than what we got.

Not if you beleive what the Alpha legion were told - they were told that humanity would war with itself into near oblivion if Chaos won, and thus, with so few people left the chaos gods would 'die' and the galaxy would be free of them.

Urath
11-05-2009, 22:50
Hmm, well I suppose for Chaos to thrive there has to be, guess what... CHAOS! :P
It seems that the Chaos Gods have a realm unto themselves and the materiel world is less than important with them, if what they said to Horus is true then the main aim of the Chaos Gods was to remove the Emperor as a threat to their power in the warp, being an immensely potent psyker and his current undertakings were a heavy threat to that.

However, while the Emperor's grand designs were ultimatley undone and with the Imperium in stagnate decline with little hope for redemption. Aliens without, witches and "heretics" within sowing anarchy and disorder. It seems half and half. The Imperium lost it's greatest leaders and ceased to achieve it's potential as a super power capable of completely ruling the Galaxy and thereafter with the ability to nullify the Chaos Gods and the use of the Imperial Webway.

Ultimatley, the Emperor is still in power and his psychic prescence is still a threat. While the Chaos Gods have ****** the Imperium over big time, it wasn't exactly a win. But it wasn't a loss either, it just slowed them down.

Phunting
11-05-2009, 23:18
Well obviously a complete Chaos victory would have been the Imperium totally falling to Chaos and staying that way permanently.

Spoliers for Legion:

Remember the scenaio foretold in Legion wasn't Chaos vs humanity but Chaos vs the universe. If the 'Chaos lost' scenario happened, it's not a victory for humanity as they are wiped out. So in terms that the human race survives, it is very much a human victory even if this means that Chaos survives too

Urath
11-05-2009, 23:20
Well obviously, but that didn't seem to occur in any of the endgames presented to the Alpha Legion or in Horus' vision of the future.

Edit:
Also, I think the question was whether there was anything that could be considered a human victory. Well, humans are still around. So yeah, you were right :)

blameless
11-05-2009, 23:48
Well Horus was killed and the imperium was made weak beyond repear... so loss to both i say...

Maidel
11-05-2009, 23:54
Well Horus was killed and the imperium was made weak beyond repear... so loss to both i say...

What - you mean the galaxy spanning empire thats infact GROWN since the end of the hersey?

angelusmortis1384
12-05-2009, 00:02
unfortunately chaos helped the imperium's grip over mankind and its empire.
it ment the beaurocracy and Ordo: xenos, malleus and hereticus could tighten their hold and practice's on mankind. in truth the imeprium is killing itself and that has nothing to do with chaos. and thats down to human nature being fearful of itself.

TheOverlord
12-05-2009, 03:37
Well if you take the Horus Heresy as canon, technically the heresy caused the Imperium to lose half it's empire, as it spanned 2 million worlds before the Heresy, IIRC.

ryng_sting
12-05-2009, 08:44
Assuming what the Cabal told Alpharius was undisputably true.

Anyone else notice the convenience of the argument, how Chaos comes out 'the winner' whether Horus wins or loses?

Corax
12-05-2009, 10:41
I wouldn't exactly say that the Heresy was an unqualified success. Sure, it put their greatest adversary out of the game to a greater or lesser degree, but they failed in their best opportunity to destroy the main force of order in the universe, and they lost a lot of the military strength they had gone to such great lengths to cultivate. It was pretty much a technical draw if you ask me. Sort of like a 'Double K.O.'

Sephiroth
12-05-2009, 11:12
Horus and his rebels failed, and were driven into exile.

Chaos (in the sense of Warp Powers and daemons) 'won' because they effectively halted the Emperor's plans which could undo them, and they received no 'harm' against them in return. Yes, Horus was lost, but then they'd taken him from the Emperor to begin with.

Heresy fails. Chaos Triumphs with the seduction of the Warmaster and half of the Imperium's military forces.

pookie
12-05-2009, 12:59
wasnt the vsiion what the Imperium looks like now? after the HH not what it would be like if the HH didnt happen? ( ie no statues of the Traitor Primarchs were shown as proof that the Imperium was heading towards the wrong path?)

samiens
12-05-2009, 13:07
Half is a debatable amount- in the 3rd ed chaos codexit mentioned that horus rebelled with one third off the hosts of the Emperor- the right number for the obvious 'war in heaven' biblical reference. Secondly, the horus heresy books are apparently not canonical so the persuasive evidence of these books is lessened. Finally, there's a huge Imperium around with many forces fighting the forces of choas so declaring a total victory is simply to read in to what might well be a biased/untrue selection of statements (both of which were intended to bend a force to the maker's will) as a prophetic fact.

Askari
12-05-2009, 13:29
Constant war with xenos and heretics, the "God" Emperor laid low, losing nothing in the process. Inquisition so paranoid they routinely kill millions of their own and there seems to be a rebellion and betrayal every other day.

Sounds pretty Chaotic to me.

Nero
12-05-2009, 14:29
Chaos won, the Chaos Space Marines didn't. They are two different factions.

I don't believe the Chaos God's intentions were ever to 'kill' the Emperor, that would destroy the Imperium and ultimately lead to the death of humanity. The Chaos Gods like humanity, humans have a strong warp-presence.

Think about it; if cows decided to rise up against humans, we wouldn't slaughter every cow. We wouldn't have anything to eat! We'd just remove the 'leaders' (bulls) and place them in a restricted area where they are relatively safe and incapable of growing (a fenced field).

Ohwaitno that's what we already do, and it's what Chaos did. The Emperor and Horus are the bulls, the Imperium's bureaucracy and ecclesiarchy is the fenced field.

As for Horus - he was just a pawn. A means to an end. Why would Chaos want Horus ruling the Imperium? His petty mood swings and limited personality (Tax collectors bad! Endless war good!) would quickly lead to the destruction of humanity.



In short;

Chaos gave The Emperor his powers so he could create the Imperium, and thus ensure Chaos would have an endless supply of souls they wouldn't have to babysit and protect.

Chaos gave Horus his powers so he could cripple the Emperor, and thus humanity, before they could become a threat to Chaos.

Chaos won.

Allen
12-05-2009, 16:18
In False Gods Horus is shown a vision of the future while he is in the warp. This vision is of the "present" 41st millenium (where the Imperum defeted the Traitor Legions) and implys that the Chaos gods both knew the outcome and desired it. This is further backed up by the revelations in Legion.

Chaos managed to put the number one pretender to their throne into undeath; halted the Great Crusade and allowed the Imperium to become besieged; spread superstition and religion throughout the Imperium; and destroyed the Human Webway, meaning they can just sit back and wait for the warp to break through the golden throne... that is if humanities psychic evolution dosn't do the job first.

Is there anything that could be considered a human victory, or was the Horus Heresy an absolute Chaos victory?


I don't know...I always imagined the involvement of the Chaos Gods in the Materium like a hobby, or a side interest. They're not really interested in the material plane, they're just...amused by it.

Probably they saw this big human empire, destroyed it with the uber-psyker ho created it but lost their champion in the process, and welcomed some worshippers in the real space/warp overlap called The Eye of Terror.
Funny and entertaining for a while, but hardly a "plan" or something related ot a "strategy". I think that's the sense of the "Great Game" bit of fluff in the Chaos Codex.

ambrosehlbiercemencken
12-05-2009, 17:39
What happens if the Imperium has been weakened to a point that the Tyranids or Necrons can eat everyone? Wouldn't that remove the souls and emotions for chaos to feed on? There are no chaos Eldar, no Chaos Tau, no Chaos Orks... could the Chaos Gods exist without humanity, and by extension the Imperium?

Urath
12-05-2009, 18:13
The Traitor Legions were basically glorified pawns during the Heresy, although the Heresy failed in the goals of Horus it did succeed for the Chaos Powers: As has already been stated, it seems reasonable to me.

@amrosehlbiercemencken: Your name is a mouthfull! But yeah, I think the warp prescence of the Eldar could potentially strong enough to sustain at least one "god", namely Slaanesh. Though I believe the Heresy was one of the few occasions where the gods collaborated and decided it would be the best choice. I think what we have to bear in mind here is that the Chaos godsdidn't intend to completely destroy the Imperium, it had already been forseen what would happen if they performed action "x", so it seems as though they knew what they were doing.

Scorpius_78
12-05-2009, 18:43
I want to know where its said that the gods need souls in order to surrvive. I personly have never seen it said that the gods NEED souls to live. (if im wrong i'll shut up) As far as any of us know the chaos gods dont even know we exist. Everything that has ever been done "by the chaos gods" as has been done by their servants (aka Daemons).

We know the gods were around long before humanity’s raise to power, if they didn't need us back then why would they now.

I personly think the gods couldn't care less about what happens in materium. Or as stated above its nothing more then a hobby to them. A fun little thing to look down at and have a laugh.

just my two cents

Urath
12-05-2009, 19:05
Well, Deamons are physical manifestations of that god so I guess we can assume that the Chaos gods have authority over said Deamons.

You have to remember, there were a lot more critters running around in the galaxy before Humanity rose to power with the Crusade purging aliens (ex. The Laer in "Fulgrim") and as humanity was either not around or was in too small numbers to notice, the Chaos gods would have had many other races' emotions to feed on. Having said that, humanity experiences a lot of negative emotions, perhaps to a stronger intensity than other races and the increase of humans may have incredibly bolstered the collective power of Chaos.

Nero
12-05-2009, 20:01
We know the gods were around long before humanity’s raise to power, if they didn't need us back then why would they now.

Unless it's been retconned (and it probably has) last I heard the first 3 Chaos Gods were created by humanity. Some time around now (give or take a few hundred years). Slaanesh was created later during the Fall of the Eldar, obviously.

Before humanity and the Eldar created the current Warp Gods? There was the old Eldar pantheon (Khaine and Vaul and all that), and the Ork's Gork and Mork (who are still around). There were no other psychically attuned races to create Warp Gods, or if there were they're all long dead now.

Chaos itself is ancient, the current form of Chaos perhaps not so much?

Maidel
12-05-2009, 21:12
Unless it's been retconned (and it probably has) last I heard the first 3 Chaos Gods were created by humanity. Some time around now (give or take a few hundred years). Slaanesh was created later during the Fall of the Eldar, obviously.

Before humanity and the Eldar created the current Warp Gods? There was the old Eldar pantheon (Khaine and Vaul and all that), and the Ork's Gork and Mork (who are still around). There were no other psychically attuned races to create Warp Gods, or if there were they're all long dead now.

Chaos itself is ancient, the current form of Chaos perhaps not so much?

Its not been retconned - just expanded.

As the warp is timeless, the begning of something isnt concurrent with its appearance in the warp.

So, although humanity created the 3 warp gods, they have, infact, always existed - get you head round that one :)

Idaan
12-05-2009, 21:22
Unless it's been retconned (and it probably has) last I heard the first 3 Chaos Gods were created by humanity. Some time around now (give or take a few hundred years). Slaanesh was created later during the Fall of the Eldar, obviously.
They were created by War in Heaven as Warp Maelstroms.
They were given their identity by alien races existing before the Fall.* So Slaanesh was shaped by Eldar for example and through their psyche "born" into material world, allowing him to interact with it.
They have turned their attention towards humanity around the time the Emperor was born and human population reached considerable levels.
They have changed their identity into something more human-like as Humanity became the dominant species in the galaxy, the one that shaped them in the most significant way.

*That bit is fanwanking unsupported by official material, but it surely makes sense: it's not like the Eldar were the only decadent species in their galaxy and there was no Slaanesh before the Fall. Rather, the Fall was only means for him to interact with Materium. So the same thing should have occured to different races. It's just their Eyes of Terror have already dissipated.

angelusmortis1384
12-05-2009, 22:46
Its not been retconned - just expanded.

As the warp is timeless, the begning of something isnt concurrent with its appearance in the warp.

So, although humanity created the 3 warp gods, they have, infact, always existed - get you head round that one :)


agreed, the chaos gods have existed before, when, and after we gained thought. think of the pan dimentional mice out of 'hitchhickers'
lols.

also the chaos gods have always known we exist, and tend to only make incursions to our realm when there is something they deem as a possible threat to their existance, im sure it mentions this in the demons codex.

as a personal thing its like having an hour glass, half filled with oil, half with water... the two obviously cant exist or mix together coherently so have to spill over from one to the other from time to time. chaos exists as a ying to the imperiums yang. as an eternal balance. i kinda beleive because the imperium grew stronger so did the power of chaos. so its all reletive to each other. its almost similar to todays events in the world, obviously without the existance of the chaos gods lols (we didnt creaty them yet ;) )

SolidShooterMan
20-05-2009, 23:11
a pure victory for chaos. simple. the chaos gods dont care for victory, and the results of the heresy have plunged the galaxy and imperium of man into eternal warfare, slaying and swaying in the name of the chaos gods, they dont care for mortal lives, so victory in battle means little in the grand scheme of things, only the deliverance of more damned souls

Kiras of the flame
21-05-2009, 01:06
The Forces of Chaos and Order are a constant balance that contradicts each other in their goals, If one side won, then they would soon divide and soon balance would return... Either way the galaxy still turns no matter what we do... It's only a matter of time...

Warsurge
21-05-2009, 01:19
So long as the blood flows, plans being schemed, having pleasurable times, and giving someone a disease I think it was a Chaos victory even though I think it is heretical to admit it, it is the truth. The Imperium is less safe than it was before the Heresy. The Imperium is slowly loosing footing and moving back and back inch by inch while Chaos and the other Xeno races are expanding. Everything that rises must eventually fall.