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Griffin
12-05-2009, 10:21
Ok - now before we start, I don't want any juvenile idiots butting in with silly comments like "faggy space Elves" or YMCA jokes.

I was thinking last night (while reading codex), that since their population is in decline - would they frown on same sex relationships ? Now this of course is on the assumption that they need a male and a female to reproduce. That's just a guess ofcourse but seeing as they have both genders (as they get referred to as he and she) i'd assume it's so.

Now I know that even before the fall concepts of hetrosexuality etc, where probably rather old fashioned seeing as their decadence spawned slaanesh. i'd don't think they would be against it on a moralistic ground - but rather that it was bad for their species survival. Here' are some of the questions I'd like a discussion on.

We know that eldar and their partners have a extremely deep bond and Stay together for ages, they also have a long gestation period for their young, and tend to take things very slowly because of the path and the dangers of slaanesh.

Lets say that 2 male or female eldar are in a relationship - would it be accepted to use a surrogate parent to fulfill their obligations to the craftworld, or would their deep bond prevent such a thing from happening ?

If they didn't allow the use of another eldar for reproductive purposes - do you think that any given eldar would suffer a stigma of being selfish ?

Please discuss.

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 10:28
I'm sure Eldar have the capability to explore all possible types of relationships, and probably 10'000 years ago, did.

It's a cultural and personal question, since I can't recall that the Eldar religion has taken a position on it.

Sephiroth
12-05-2009, 11:05
Being aliens... no idea. We'd need an understanding of how Eldar view relationships/marriages. They might for all we know, simply come together for a period to breed, then part ways after the child is born.

Incidentally, I can't see the Eldar frowning on such a thing for the reason that the two eldar (male/male or female/female) can not conceive a child - if the Eldar felt that strongly about preventing potential 'breeding' loss, they simply wouldn't allow one gender (depending on which is most populous) onto the battlefield.

Lord_Crull
12-05-2009, 11:08
The Eldar frown on all sexual relationships most likely, cause that kind of thing brings Slaanesh's attention and that is never good.

Mr_Rose
12-05-2009, 11:37
See, I have a wild'n'crazy theory about how the pointy-ears reproduce that would explain this mostly:
Eldar are all part-time hermaphrodites. That is, they can switch gender as necessary to their situation. Thus the concept of a same-sex relationship is more or less irrelevant and it also explains why Banshees are all female.

Lord-Caerolion
12-05-2009, 11:44
The Eldar frown on all sexual relationships most likely, cause that kind of thing brings Slaanesh's attention and that is never good.

They can't be that extreme in the Path, otherwise they wouldn't be a dying race, they'd be dead.

bert n ernie
12-05-2009, 12:11
I doubt they frown on all sexual relationships. Most religions which look down on sex(and not all do) only look down on it when it is either a) looked down on when outside of a monogamous relationship b) looked down on when used exclusively for pleasure.
All religions accept the fact that sex is necessary for procreation.
I would assume that they either look down upon homosexuality as frivilous sexuality(like some religions), they have mandatory 'conscription' into reproduction, or they are a dying race and they don't care.

I have a feeling this is more a discussion for P n R, so good luck keeping this thread in background.

Incognito
12-05-2009, 12:11
Point being, is that the Eldar's sexual depravity gave birth to Slaanesh.

So they've probably done things in ways our feeble Mon'keigh intellects could not even begin to comprehend.

And right now, they're sort've in a 80s backlash from it.

Basically, they probably frown on anything that is done purely for sensual reasons.

Imagine if everytime you jerked off, there was a 5% chance a demon would swallow your soul. You would be wearing Mormon underwear too.

Mannimarco
12-05-2009, 12:13
i think i may have read somwhere that certain species can change sex depending on their situations and even the komodo dragon can get pregnant on its own and thats just our world, just imagine what a space elf can do.

Griffin
12-05-2009, 12:23
See, I have a wild'n'crazy theory about how the pointy-ears reproduce that would explain this mostly:
Eldar are all part-time hermaphrodites. That is, they can switch gender as necessary to their situation. Thus the concept of a same-sex relationship is more or less irrelevant and it also explains why Banshees are all female.

Actually not all banshees are females. That aside - you guys don't think there would be any kind of social stigma - For purposes of discussion assuming that there are both male and female spes elves.

Mannimarco
12-05-2009, 12:28
no theyre wouldnt be a social stigma, these are a bunch of long lived perfectionists who pretty much let each other do whatever they want, although they would probably draw the line at drug fuelled sex party, you know, the whole slaanesh incident

Mr_Rose
12-05-2009, 12:42
The alternative being that there is a "path of the mother" or equivalent, and Eldar doing other jobs simply can't procreate normally.

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 12:51
The alternative being that there is a "path of the mother" or equivalent ...

Visions of Tendo Kasumi come to mind.

FarseerMatt
12-05-2009, 15:36
Being aliens... no idea. We'd need an understanding of how Eldar view relationships/marriages. They might for all we know, simply come together for a period to breed, then part ways after the child is born.

Eldar do apparently have some equivalent of marriage, with participating couples being referred to as "life mates" or "soul mates" (ref Shadow Point). They do not have to be married to be sexually active however, and appear to be free to pursue their relationships regardless of what Path they are currently on (ref craftmistress Lileathon and her aspect warrior boyfriend, again from Shadow Point). Which makes sense if you think about it because Eldar retain all the knowledge and experience from previous paths and can go back to a bit of art or a bit of craftsmanship when they feel like it, or combine them (eg Path of the Healer + Path of the Seer = Psychologist/Councillor), showing that although their current Path is by far their primary focus, it isn't everything they do. Even Aspect Warriors are specifically stated to "continue to cultivate the civilian side of their existance when they are not training. This provides a contrast to their warrior personality, as indeed it is meant to be."



The Eldar frown on all sexual relationships most likely, cause that kind of thing brings Slaanesh's attention and that is never good.

The Eldar are not abstinent - their aversion is to trying everything AT ONCE. "For an Eldar to yield absolutely to his desires would destroy him" so they focus on one aspect of life at a time to "experience their potential in a safe and controlled manner" by slowly "building up a repertoir of skills over which they have complete control." Once he has this mastery, he can use those skills at any time without fear (the warrior path being perhaps the sole exception).

Applied to love and relationships (which seem to exist outside the normal structure of the Path) I therefore cannot see the Eldar having any problem with two Eldar getting intimate. Slaanesh, being the god of excess, trying new things and pushing limits, is probably averse to the idea of a single couple staying together for any length of time anyway.

As Mannimarco says however, drug-fuelled orgies probably come under the heading of "yielding absolutely to their desires" and are therefore out.



i think i may have read somwhere that certain species can change sex depending on their situations and even the komodo dragon can get pregnant on its own and thats just our world, just imagine what a space elf can do.

Doesn't Xenology cover this? I believe that the Eldar reproduce in much the same way as humans, albeit in a rather longer and more involved process (multiple impregnations to implant the "full set" of genes, and a long gestation period). Changing sex etc is unlikely as it becomes more difficult the more complicated the organism you're dealing with.



The alternative being that there is a "path of the mother" or equivalent, and Eldar doing other jobs simply can't procreate normally.

It's not so much that they can't procreate, it's just that the time and unique "skill set" required to raise a child could probably be seen as a Path in itself, and would therefore warrant the majority of the Eldar couple's attention!

NightrawenII
12-05-2009, 17:27
The alternative being that there is a "path of the mother" or equivalent, and Eldar doing other jobs simply can't procreate normally.

This is correct, even Eldar woman cannot be acrobatic Banshee Aspect Warrior while she is pregnant. And to be honest (granted not my experience) raising child is very exhausting process. So I guess there is Path when either Eldar focus on the raising his/her child/ren or raise children in way of adoptive mother/father.

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 17:53
I'm told by friends that raising twins is 250% more exhausting.

Sekhmet
12-05-2009, 18:39
All religions accept the fact that sex is necessary for procreation.


To be frank, religions have to accept that. If they don't they have the very real possibility that the religion will die out in the current generation, as children cannot be born into it... and who would want to join a religion like that unless they were born into it?

If it was a species-wide religion, unless they developed artificial insemination/gestation beforehand or the species reproduces by cloning itself like bacteria (asexually), the species would become extinct.

librisrouge
12-05-2009, 18:52
Every society that makes it more than a single generation accepts that fact. Most Christian groups that have vows of celebecy (wow, that must be misspelled) had them forced on the church as a political control until they just became "tradition." Eldar probably have a formal method of courtship and marriage. Child rearing may, or may not, be connected to marriage at all. They may have a seperate system for these things.

Also, lets not forget that the Craftworlds are themselves different. Saim-han is ruled by noble families. This makes it pretty clear that they have family units that resemble human families (if only semi-recognizable.) They probably have several "Paths" were it is safe to have a child and do during that time. "Path of Menial Labor", "Path of Merchant", and "Path of Builder" are all paths that need doing but wouldn't neccisarily proclude having a kid around.

Ubermensch Commander
12-05-2009, 19:34
Only in the sense that it does not breed more Eldar to continue the Dying race. Other than that, I doubt they give a damn. The Eldar feel emotions at a higher intensity than humans, so they probably understand and accept "love" regardless of the genders involved. Of course, the Craftworlders would accept it only if it fits into their rigid path. None of this uncontrolled lust business! *wags finger* You wouldn't want to go about creating another horrible comsic blasphemy would you?

Emperor's Grace
12-05-2009, 22:01
and who would want to join a religion like that unless they were born into it?

Orphans.

The Shaker community went about what? 250 years (founded mid 1700's and there's still a few) of no hanky panky by adopting folks in.

Maidel
12-05-2009, 22:17
Orphans.

The Shaker community went about what? 250 years (founded mid 1700's and there's still a few) of no hanky panky by adopting folks in.

I was about to say 'what a load of crap'

Then I looked it up.


Jeeze we are damn weird animals - it just seems we think up ways of tormenting ourselves.


But - back on topic - the whole 'adoption thing' - well that just aint possible for an entire race - because, if the entire race is abstinant - well there aint any orphans...

omera
12-05-2009, 22:34
Imagine if everytime you jerked off, there was a 5% chance a demon would swallow your soul. You would be wearing Mormon underwear too.

I'm quoting this in my sig for lulz.

I'm sorry, I couldn't resist.

Col. Tartleton
12-05-2009, 22:36
We have to remember that "dying race" is certainly a relative statement. They're in decline. They've been in decline for Millenia. They were probably at one point almost as populous as humans. Now there are probably 1 Eldar for every hundred thousand to million humans. That's still like 40 trillion Eldar... Given a thousand craft worlds maximum no single craft world is going to be too lowly populated. I mean that's 4 billion average on each small craft world. That's a ton of Eldar, but the Imperium is the high quadrillions to low Quintillions... That can't even be counted to. You'd be very lucky to get to 3 billion seconds in your entire life time. This is why the Imperium does its census as a loose estimate on each world not to mention the total of the Imperium.

Maidel
12-05-2009, 22:44
We have to remember that "dying race" is certainly a relative statement.

Aye - but, if the roles were reversed and it was humans outnumbered by the same amount then we WOULDNT be a race in decline. The eldar have a much harder time with reproduction than humans - get 2 humans, in 20 years - you got 10 humans.

Get two eldar - in 200 years you might be lucky and have 3 eldar. (its a guess but yout get what I mean)


That can't even be counted to. You'd be very lucky to get to 3 billion seconds in your entire life time. This is why the Imperium does its census as a loose estimate on each world not to mention the total of the Imperium.

English or american billion - 3 billlion (US) second is 95 years - 3 billion (UK) seconds is 95,000 years :p

Eldartank
13-05-2009, 01:38
To be frank, religions have to accept that. If they don't they have the very real possibility that the religion will die out in the current generation, as children cannot be born into it... and who would want to join a religion like that unless they were born into it?

If it was a species-wide religion, unless they developed artificial insemination/gestation beforehand or the species reproduces by cloning itself like bacteria (asexually), the species would become extinct.

In the 1800's, there was a cult known as the "Shakers," a sort of radical spin-off of the Quakers Christian sect. One of the Shaker's beliefs was that any and all sexual activity of any kind was a sin. Needless to say, there are currently no Shakers alive today.

Col. Tartleton
13-05-2009, 02:03
^ Read the posts ;). Already was discussed my friend.

Yes, but they aren't on the verge of extinction that people try to project. An eldar guardian is fluffwise worth several guardsmen and a more veteran guardian (such as one who has aspected before or walked the path of a ranger or say gymnast) would be able to be more than a match for a Sororita IMO.

There aspects are Marine fighters. At best one aspect could take out a couple marines within reason (not at once...) at worst it'd be a toss up as in who won a fight (Dark Reapers in Melee against a tactical marine for example.) Now we look at Exarchs who must be more than a match for a marine veteran, and a senior Exarch (One who is is command per se of a temple on a craftworld) would be at least on par with a captain or a perhaps a no name chapter master. Their best fighters and God help us a Pheonix Lord would be able to take out a named Marine hero and several Pheonix Lords (Asurmen could probably put the hurt on a Primarch...he's virtually a powerful daemon prince, think about it, immortal warrior spirit who emerges from the web way at random like he's David Carradine composed of a thousand souls in a nigh unbreakable healing body with a sword that can cut through almost anything bound with the soul of a mighty warrior...) would be Gods of war.

We have to remember that there are probably more aspect warriors then marines, and that many of them are quite superior to marines equivalents.

The Eldar are what we like to call "really really good."

So the whole "We're Dying Oh Noes!!!11eleven!!!" really isn't the case. They aren't what they once were, but compared to the Imperium I'd say they've aged better. Most of the culling took place right at the fall, and it seems like they've staid pretty steady since then. I wouldn't be surprised if they're actually growing in population. I mean even if it took two hundred years for a birth (which is on the most extreme end) your still going to have a crap load of eldar to give birth. Their death rate also isn't very big because they tend to avoid conflicts for hundreds of years and then dive headlong into a major campaign to keep them secure for the next century or so. Its kind of their nature. They deal in a time scale other races simply can't.

Hellebore
13-05-2009, 02:15
Don't say that. You'll get accused of eldar bias and a propensity for Braying. Eldar can't be better than marines, it's blasphemy.

Hellebore

Warforger
13-05-2009, 02:32
To be frank, religions have to accept that. If they don't they have the very real possibility that the religion will die out in the current generation, as children cannot be born into it... and who would want to join a religion like that unless they were born into it?

If it was a species-wide religion, unless they developed artificial insemination/gestation beforehand or the species reproduces by cloning itself like bacteria (asexually), the species would become extinct.

Actually, if I remember correctly there was a religion that had no sex whatsoever, they used to be in the thoasands now there's only 7......

Hellebore
13-05-2009, 02:34
Lol, you'd be about the 3rd or 4th person to point that out. :p

Hellebore

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
13-05-2009, 02:50
Guys, there actually WAS a religion that didn't have any sex!! They were called the "Shavers" and they died out 163 years ago.

When I first saw this thread title, I was all *facepalm*

But it seems like everyone is handling this pretty well for the most part, so kudos.

I think that the Eldar are way beyond our ideas of sexuality (see: Slaanesh), and as the coolest dudes in the universe (see: Hellebore) they are probably far beyond needing an Afternoon Delight. I think that's part of their problem and why they're dying. Humans do it like bunnies, Eldar can hardly get excited enough to procreate. It really makes you wonder what the heck they did to create Slaanesh...

Lamhirh
13-05-2009, 03:01
The whole deal began when the Eldar established an empire of their own in the galaxy. They became complacent, bored and...horny. Basically, they fornicated so goddamn much that they tore open the universe.

Of course what actually happened is a good deal more complicated :angel:. As to why they are a 'dying' race? It's certainly not from a lack of libido that's for sure. For CW it's a drawback of the path system with everything being done at it's proper time and all. Exodites and DE have no such problems...what is particularly idiotic in the fluff is that even with 2 year pregnancies and slightly longer childhoods* they should be more than capable of out-breeding humans. Think about it, they live for roughly 1000+ years and are probably fertile during most of that time. Basically, it's as if your great-grandparents were still alive and popping out kids. No cancer, close to no disease, the only real threat being hostile species and daemons of course.

*More doesn't make sense from any standpoint. As an aside Xenology's 'multiple breedings' is also a daft concept, a female Eldar is more than capable of entering estrus at will if she wishes to conceive a child and suspending it indefinitely to prevent pregnancy. Male eldar may produce gametes on an as needed basis much like some RL animals do but breeding would still be a one shot affair. Considering hermit crabs and ferns probably have more genetic material than they do...

Most eldar are probably indifferent to same-sex affairs and view them as a personal choice. The exact degree of acceptance would vary from enclave to enclave with a minority frowning upon it because it translates into less children.

Hellebore
13-05-2009, 03:03
Of course what actually happened is a good deal more complicated :angel:...

Yeah, but you gotta admit a galactic orgy does sound pretty impressive.

Hellebore

Lamhirh
13-05-2009, 04:13
Yeah, but you gotta admit a galactic orgy does sound pretty impressive.

Hellebore

No comment :p.

I was just thinking that maybe eldar males reproduce the way they do because females are naturally polyandrous. Meaning that eldar children can and often will have multiple biological fathers and that this is made possible by conception taking place in stages. Talk about a child support nightmare...

massey
13-05-2009, 04:21
I think the Eye of Terror was actually caused by an Eldar Prince who tried to rape space. It kinda looks like a big orifice.

Sergeant Uriel Ventris
13-05-2009, 04:41
I think the Eye of Terror was actually caused by an Eldar Prince who tried to rape space. It kinda looks like a big orifice.

Congratulations, lock imminent!

Hellebore
13-05-2009, 05:01
No comment :p.

I was just thinking that maybe eldar males reproduce the way they do because females are naturally polyandrous. Meaning that eldar children can and often will have multiple biological fathers and that this is made possible by conception taking place in stages. Talk about a child support nightmare...

That's a pretty cool concept actually. There would be a far stronger mother bond as well, very 'Isha the mother goddess' spiritually.

Hellebore

madprophet
13-05-2009, 05:13
Wendy Pini handled it neatly in her Elfquest books (yeah, I know, its not 40k or even GW but it IS one of the best in depth looks at elves ever written). Her elves are very earthy beings, and while nearly immortal from a human perspective (a life span measured in millennia) they are very sexual as well. There are three sorts of relationships. The first is recognized partners, this is the case when two genetically compatible elves meet something deep in their reptile brain goes 'AHA!' and they are biologically compelled to mate. No emotional or romantic attachment is created, just an overwhelming need to share genetic material since the offspring of such a union is guaranteed to be healthy, viable and strong.

Sometimes, but not always recognition can lead to being lifemates. This is an institution akin to marriage except it is a much deeper commitment since it is intended to last for hundreds if not thousands of years. Lifemates may or may not be monogamous or even exclusive relationships though they are in most elf cultures (the go-backs are a notable exception). Lifemates may or may not be recognized partners. Someone in a lifemate relationship may recognize someone outside it. Elfin culture accepts that the recognized pair must do what they must.

A less serious relationship is lovemates, they are simply a cross between 'going steady' and 'friends with benefits'. Like lifemates they may or may not be recognized and may recognize someone outside of the relationship.

It is very rare (but not unheard of) for an elf to recognize more than one partner.

It is important to note that Recognition always results in pregnancy and birth. Pregnancy outside of recognition is extremely rare so unrecognized lifemates/lovemates rarely if ever have elflings (I don't know what else to call them). Pregnancy is a 2 year process and even within recognition, reproduction is only assured on the first coupling... after that, you pays your money and you takes your chances...

This neatly explains the low birth rate, (it would barely be at replacement if that under the best of circumstances - in the grimdark... fuggetabotit) and the development of recognition may even have been a psychic reaction to the birth of Slaanesh. Anyway, just a thought for the mix.

If the Elves/Eldar of GW's worlds work in similar ways, same-sex relationships become a non-issue since sooner or later an elf/eldar will recognize someone and have baby elflings assuming they don't get killed in the grimdark too soon.

If, on the other hand, you assume eldar reproduction works more or less like human reproduction, then, yes, the Elves/Eldar couldn't reasonably countenance same-sex relationships to the exclusion of heterosexual relationships since the future of the very race is still in question.

One last point, if you really are worried about this, may I suggest that you might be obsessing over the more... shall we say... esoteric aspects of the GW universe.

Lamhirh
13-05-2009, 05:18
I think the Eye of Terror was actually caused by an Eldar Prince who tried to rape space. It kinda looks like a big orifice.

Gives a whole new meaning to 'the final frontier' doesn't it :wtf:?



That's a pretty cool concept actually. There would be a far stronger mother bond as well, very 'Isha the mother goddess' spiritually.

IMO the eldar still retain the option of reproducing in a faster, more human-like way if the need arises. Maybe when a couple is monogamous and wishes to focus on parenthood the father can produce the full set of gametes and a child will result from a single mating. It's when they choose to put a pregnancy on hold for whatever reason and/or increase genetic diversity that they spread it out more. In a sense this would take the place of delayed implantation as it occurs in mustelids etc.

@Madprophet

I had thought about how eldar might experience recognition in much the same way as Pini's elves. Craftworlders are probably more controlled when it comes to physical intimacy however...

Lockjaw
13-05-2009, 07:25
Guys, there actually WAS a religion that didn't have any sex!! They were called the "Shavers" and they died out 163 years ago.

When I first saw this thread title, I was all *facepalm*

But it seems like everyone is handling this pretty well for the most part, so kudos.

I think that the Eldar are way beyond our ideas of sexuality (see: Slaanesh), and as the coolest dudes in the universe (see: Hellebore) they are probably far beyond needing an Afternoon Delight. I think that's part of their problem and why they're dying. Humans do it like bunnies, Eldar can hardly get excited enough to procreate. It really makes you wonder what the heck they did to create Slaanesh...


Actually it's Shakers, Shaver was a guy who thought the earth was hollow and ruled by evil lemurian dwarves.



And I'd figure eldar wouldn't really worry about it too much, even if it means no breeding, they could still have some sort of artificial insemination set up on some craft worlds, some RL sperm banks have gay donors, so why not Eldar.

the dying race I always took more to mean their empire was on the decline rather than literally dying out, they've had millenia to die, and right now they have 3 to 4 subraces? doesn't sound like they're in much danger of being extinct to me

DE however would prolly do it like rabbits to whatever has a hole, or if there isn't one, theyll make one

Griffin
13-05-2009, 07:30
@ Mad Prophet - not worried as such, more intrigued :) I love trying to flesh out the different races in 40K from the Umbra to the Hrud.

@ The Rest of thread - I'm amazed we kept it mostly on topic, well done guys and gals!

Condottiere
13-05-2009, 07:33
Wendy Pini's Elfquest has always impressed me, and still makes an impression today.

Maybe CW Eldar are like the Athenians?

Col. Tartleton
13-05-2009, 12:25
Don't talk about Greek people in a discussion of same sex relationships... not their fault they sort of invented it... :)

The multiple mating thing allows for Greek Hero Syndrome. They can literally have multiple fathers because their mothers bedded multiple men in the same "night." There are many examples, Theseus was born of Poseidon, Aegeas, and Aethra. Thus he was semi divine. Hercules and his twin were half brothers because of the same reason. One was mortal one was the son of Zeus. Same thing with the four twins: Helen (Of Troy) Castor, Polydeuces and Clytemnestra. Helen and Pollux were semi divine, were immortal, and were of divine beauty, Castor was a mortal hero, and Clytemnestra was a crazy b****... she killed her husband Agamemnon. Though he did deserve it with killing their daughter because he was a fool.

Anyhow, this would allow them to tie in nicely to their Greek/Japanese culture as I'm willing to bet at some point the Japanese had similar myths. Though I can't think of any examples.

electricwolf
13-05-2009, 16:33
I would think that given their long life spans, any eldar who wanted to could have a same sex relationship at some time in their lives and they could have opposite sex relationships in their lives also.

I don't think it would be odd for an eldar to go many decades with one partner then have a relationship with another partner or even maybe have different relationships going at the same time(no one said they were monogamous).

Emperor's Grace
13-05-2009, 21:27
the whole 'adoption thing' - well that just aint possible for an entire race - because, if the entire race is abstinant - well there aint any orphans...

Unless you "uplift" like the Slann. Or farm out like the Tau.

Do you need your "race" to continue biologically? or just idealogically?

(not being antagonistic, just offering options)

Also, the OP was not about the entire eldar race, just a certain segment.

If they're truly worried about survival, sexual orientation shouldn't matter. It should only matter if you wish to conceive/raise a child - which can be done regardless of your preference if surrogacy or artificial methods are used.

I would also wonder that they wouldn't have wraithbone "wombs" given the technoorganic nature of some of their stuff. The fertilized egg could be removed and given over to the care of the ship and it's psychic ancestors. This would free up folks for further conception, guardian (or other) duties, and probably lower mortality rates (harder to harm the ship). Also might allow psychic warding/education to begin in the "womb" leading to better chaos protection.

My vote for Iyanden: Wraithbone wombs and nurseries run by "granny" in a lighter version of a wraithguard body.


In the 1800's, there was a cult known as the "Shakers," a sort of radical spin-off of the Quakers Christian sect. One of the Shaker's beliefs was that any and all sexual activity of any kind was a sin. Needless to say, there are currently no Shakers alive today.

Already mentioned (toot my own horn) on page 1. :D

I thought there were still a few left though. Wiki says four members as of 2008 also.

Xarius
13-05-2009, 23:13
i was just thinkin of that for eldar/high elves. i think of them as like an ancient greek like society which would go for it for recreation (btw i'm not gay, sorry, just had to add this)

Maidel
13-05-2009, 23:18
Do you need your "race" to continue biologically? or just idealogically?

(not being antagonistic, just offering options)

hehe - and my 'non-argumentative' answer to that is = Go ask the eldar.


I susspect the answer would involve some form of shuriken to the face. :D

Condottiere
14-05-2009, 03:24
Depends if they are culturally sensitive or are just antagonistic to primates.

NightrawenII
14-05-2009, 07:01
An what about this:

The Craftworlders Path system and their avoiding anything resembling plesure or fun in kiloms distance create a culture of emontionless and cold people, who lost even urge of procreate.
This decrease number of relatinships(regardless on gender) and also cause the problem of *Dying race*.
So from thousand of pairs you have only couple of kids and most of them leave Craftworld and die.

My 50 halers.;)

Emperor's Grace
18-05-2009, 04:30
hehe - and my 'non-argumentative' answer to that is = Go ask the eldar.


I suspect the answer would involve some form of shuriken to the face. :D

Fair point on both. :)

While the options exist for others, I suspect the "superior" Eldar would not consider the ideological continuation route.

We are left with the option of those couples that can't procreate biologically still being accepted for their ability to raise children of those that can (but have passed on, etc...). Guardians don't always come back.

Razarael
18-05-2009, 09:32
If it's a question of Eldar morality, it would depend on the individual and the place in which they are raised, I imagine. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with homosexual relationships, just as their is nothing intrinsically wrong about having sex with contraception, but that doesn't stop puritanical zealots of the Eldar path (Alaitoc, I'm looking at you), from claiming that it must not be in order to advance their race and keep it in existence. Perhaps sexual freedom is a cause for so many of Alaitoc's young to flee into exile, being fed up and frustrated that they aren't allowed to pursue what they want, be that a homosexual relationship or otherwise.

Deep romantic connections can occur between any two individuals regardless of sex, and a race as far advanced as the Eldar, I am willing to wager, is understanding of that. I'd also be willing to bet that, they are overall not so bent on restricting personal freedoms unless it manifests as a direct or indirect threat to the Craftworld. Who is to say that two male Eldar and two female Eldar, both homosexual, wouldn't do the ole switcheroo if it meant making babies.

I also don't see this as a religious debate, as at it's core, sexuallity shouldn't be a relgious concern. Belief in an idea doesn't neccesarily have to restrict that which is pleasurable, though it does so often in human religion.

Idaan
18-05-2009, 15:47
The Craftworlders Path system and their avoiding anything resembling plesure or fun in kiloms distance create a culture of emontionless and cold people, who lost even urge of procreate.
This decrease number of relatinships(regardless on gender) and also cause the problem of *Dying race*.
So from thousand of pairs you have only couple of kids and most of them leave Craftworld and die.
It's not about avoiding pleasure. Read any of the older fluff to see that the Aspect Warriors for instance feel great exhileration and pleasure from fighting, the same has to be said about all artists and other less combat paths. Even Eldrad explicitly mentions pleasure and satisfaction when he senses Ynnead growing in Eternal Matrix.
It's only the excess of pleasure, the freedom that violates the freedom of others that they're concerned with.
It is the pleasure of a sadist raping and eating his next victim rather than pleasure of a constant and faithful lover that they avoid.