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View Full Version : DE Sea Dragon Cloaks and HE White Lion Pelts...



bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 15:35
Right, I was wondering why Dark Elves are able to take Sea Dragon Cloaks on their Masters and Dreadlords, and High Elves are unable to take White Lion Pelts on their Nobles and Princes.... it just makes no sense at all... they do exactly the same thing!

Bob

Count Zero
12-05-2009, 15:38
pure guess but perhaps the white lion cloaks are seen as sacred by the high elves so only the white lion warriors can wear them, whereas for a DE the only thing that's sacred is saving your own hide?

bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 15:46
pure guess but perhaps the white lion cloaks are seen as sacred by the high elves so only the white lion warriors can wear them, whereas for a DE the only thing that's sacred is saving your own hide?

Good point... but what about a Chrace army?

Alathir
12-05-2009, 15:53
I never understood it either, for people who have a love of Chrace they are missing what makes their characters Chracian! Its like if they took away the option to ride a damn dragon...

I can understand the idea that they may have done it to stop it from appearing on every character and becoming a noble brainer but it didnt stop the Dark Elves. If I'm correct, the Sea Dragon Cloak gives an additional +1 save in combat in addition to +1 from shooting, whereas the White Lion cloak gives a +2 save against shooting only. It wouldn't be SO popular that you'd see every character wearing one..

I can't understand it myself, but I've always thought the 7th edition High Elf book felt like it was somewhat rushed and it shows. No more honours (whilst they weren't perfect they added alot of character, they didn't deserve the axe), magic items (particularly weapons) arent all they could be.. whilst there are some amazing combinations and items, they are few and far between and a magic item list should be predominately useful. Which is why we see so many of the exact same High Elf characters in various lists.


...I think I started rambling topic... er, Ulthuan rules!

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 15:54
Probably forgot to add it in as a character option.

GraveGuard
12-05-2009, 15:56
See I wondered this aswell. Sea Dragon Cloaks would be more common so they would not just be limited to Corsairs. And the Lion Cloaks are only worn by White Lions because you keep what you kill to join the Lions but surely a White Lion Hero would also have wear a White Lion Cloak.
And then there's the Dragon Armour, why would a non Caledorian wear Dragon Armour.

Having a Chrace Army led by a Lord or Hero not wearing a cloak despite the Lions and Charioteers having them.

The High Elf Book did seem very rushed just to get it out and replace the 6th Edition one with some obivousd things as the ASF Quick Fix, Helms as Special.

Chaos Undecided
12-05-2009, 16:16
I think its just a question of exclusivity Sea Dragon Cloaks are common wear for corsairs who are hardly the most elite of organisations and as it would seem that most young nobles are expected to go off raiding and pillaging to bring wealth and renown to their families most of them probably pick up a cloak during their time on the Arks.

The White Lions however are an elite formation comprised of a few regiments and only they are allowed to wear the cloaks, being from Chrace does not automatically make you a Lion they are the very best the woodsmen of the region have to offer. Maybe its just a follow on from the old intrigue of the court idea that being Woodsmen none of them will ever amount to being anything more important than a member of the regiment with Korhil being the highest ranking member at this time.

Emeraldw
12-05-2009, 16:24
I've always wondered this as well. Also, why are sea dragon cloaks so much better? They give +1 naturally AND +1 for shooting, giving a 3+ (to a unit with heavy armor) while White lions have a 3+ only against shooting.

danny7865
12-05-2009, 16:24
White Lions are supposed to be bodyguards...... If they can save their charges life I would reckon they would give their cloak gladly.

EvC
12-05-2009, 16:31
It would have been quite a good way to create choice: take a lion cloak with heavy armour and get +2 armour save, but don't let it be combined with Dragon Armour. Then you'd occasionally see High Elf heroes who don't hail from Caledor!

Chaos Undecided
12-05-2009, 16:34
I would suggest that the White Lion's Cloaks lack of effectiveness in combat is down to their choice of armament they have to throw it back over their shoulders in combat so it doesnt interfere with them swinging their large axes.

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 16:37
Unless they use a lance, spear or rapier, cloaks are invariably going to be thrown back.

Count Zero
12-05-2009, 16:57
that's a good point about all the nobles having to go on a raid and probably pick up the cloak. i also guess that 1 sea dragon can make a lot of cloaks.

Probably GW just decided that cause HE get dragon armour as their unique armour and the DE get their cloaks. If the HE had 2 special armours then they'd need to come up with something else for the DE.

Entreri Bloodletter
12-05-2009, 17:01
The stupidest thing about the white lion pelts is that their ranged save CANNOT be used against magic...( at least I think it was FAQ'd that way someone can double check that) Now I'm a dark elf player myself and love my sea dragon cloaks but I still think that's its unfair to high elves that they can't use it on their characters and that its not useful vs magic attacks.

GraveGuard
12-05-2009, 17:02
Probably GW just decided that cause HE get dragon armour as their unique armour and the DE get their cloaks. If the HE had 2 special armours then they'd need to come up with something else for the DE.
That's probably why the got rid of the Ithilmar barding aswell.

And why you won't see Black Iron Armour for Dark Elves.

Its just a shame GW seem to be taking all the unique backround items out of the game. Its odd aswell because they keep sayign they want unique armies but all the armies are pretty standardised now in certain ways (hell is worse in 40k, soon all armies with have the same rules just different figures) like every army having a magic armour worth 20/25 points being a 2+ armour save that can't be improved etc.

bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 17:20
That's probably why the got rid of the Ithilmar barding aswell.

And why you won't see Black Iron Armour for Dark Elves.

Its just a shame GW seem to be taking all the unique backround items out of the game. Its odd aswell because they keep sayign they want unique armies but all the armies are pretty standardised now in certain ways (hell is worse in 40k, soon all armies with have the same rules just different figures) like every army having a magic armour worth 20/25 points being a 2+ armour save that can't be improved etc.

When was Black Iron Armour? 2 books ago?

I agree, i mean, DE have a 1+ armour save, HE has 2+, Empire has 2+, who else has it... (thats off the top of my head)

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 17:20
Ithilmar barding allowed Dragon Princes to charge 18"; now they can only charge 16".

merkado
12-05-2009, 17:26
they do exactly the same thing!

Umm almost... The White Lion pelt works for shooting only, but the Sea Dragon cloak works for all missile attacks

GraveGuard
12-05-2009, 17:33
I agree, i mean, DE have a 1+ armour save, HE has 2+, Empire has 2+, who else has it... (thats off the top of my head)
Vampires have it aswell, Dwarfs have a Rune that gives them the a 1+ version.

And its worse because in the end everyone ends up using the same gear, not because they are the most brilliant choices but purely because all the others are rubbish.

bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 17:53
Also, I agree, the high elves havent doen nearly enough for their magic weapons, they could've included a chracian axe, a swordmasters sword, a special PG halberd, who knows?

Plus, yet another thing, where is there no captain of the swordmasters? is it background?

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 17:55
Could be lack of space in the army book.

bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 17:57
But as mentioned before it does seem as if they rushed the book a bit...

Emeraldw
12-05-2009, 17:58
There are also plenty of characters already in the book as well.

bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 18:03
There are also plenty of characters already in the book as well.

Last time I checked there were only 6... lots of books have more than 6...

Zoolander
12-05-2009, 18:10
I think it's possible to conclude that the white lion cloaks are only worn by white lions, as a symbol of their honor, while the sea dragon cloaks are worn by anyone that can find one. Both of those match the fluff of the armies if you ask me. Then the question of why can't the army be lead by white lion heroes? Well, this can be explained if you read about the white lions. They are loners, that live in the woods away from civilization. Realistically, it is unlikely that any white lion would ascend in the political ranks of the High Elves to become a hero, though it is technically possible. So for fluff reasons, they denied the option. And it makes sense. Though gamewise, it would have been fun anyway, and made the army more interesting to boot!

Oh, and whoever says that moving Silver Helms to special was a rush decision is making a big assumption. I view it as a strategic move to make the High Elf army's focus to be on their infantry and less on their cavalry. They didn't want generals to field an elven Bretonnian army which you saw often in 6th. They switched the focus to the infantry, hence the move of the Helms to special. Why they then allowed only two core at 2000 pts (meaning two units of archers in probability) is another matter...

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 18:17
I think the idea was to remove all cavalry, with a few exceptions, to Special.

chivalrous
12-05-2009, 18:57
Almost every Dark elf noble earns some of their wealth by raiding and, while I don't have any background material to support this, I expect that most Dark Elf fathers will insist that their offspring pay their way by going raiding.

On the other hand, only a fraction of Chracians will train to become White Lions and earn Lion Cloaks.

sroblin
12-05-2009, 21:10
Plus, yet another thing, where is there no captain of the swordmasters? is it background?

Well 5th edition had rules (but not a model) for Belannear, a scholar from the tower of Hoeth who lead Swordmasters into battle. He was pretty destructive level 4 mage with good combat stats, and he came with a magic book from which he could read one verse for each game which had a very powerful effect. He was a bit of a super-character, and they didn't even give him get-you-by rules in 6th edition, though he does appear in a short story as Eltharion's mentor- too bad, because his background and rules were cool (even if the latter made him too powerful.)

The Lion Pelt was actually an equipment option in a roundabout way in 6th edition, if you gave a character the 'White Lion' honor. The honor I don't feel was appropriately priced (40 pts for the cloak + stubborn) but at least that and the Swordmaster honor (killing blow) made it possible to make themed characters. I was sad to see they didn't pursue that angle in 6th edition with more regional or organizational themes.

It is true that the High Elf magic weapon list is pretty poor (lack of good cheap options, lack of good expensive options, we're kind of left with some so-so middle-ranged options), but there are pretty good items in the other categories.

What's funny about the Lion Pelt, is that it wouldn't be such a no brainer choice even if they did allowe it- protection only against shooting, which is not usually important to characters. On the other hand, almost every Star Dragon Prince would have one, and you would be left wondering if Chrace was the natural home regions of most Elven dragons, not Caledor as previously reported.

Mireadur
12-05-2009, 21:17
I'd say sea dragons cant be that common anyway..

Just to clarify sea dragon cloak is +1 CC, +2 Any missile. Lion cloak is +2 normal shooting only.

Condottiere
12-05-2009, 21:19
Eltharion in the 6th Edition was the General of Sword Masters - I think his presence removed the 0-1 restriction. He also had anger issues.

StormCrow
12-05-2009, 23:00
Here's my theory;

Assumedly a sea dragon is a large/huge creature. So when Elthanrir and his band of surly corsairs kill said beasty there is plenty of pelt to go around and the whole group gets some snazzy new armour with enough skin left over to sell to the arrogant dreadlords back in Clar Karond.
When a high elf kills a white lion on the other hand there would only really be enough pelt for 1-2 cloaks, one to put on his back and the other to use as a canvas for whatever wussy painting he is preparing back in his gumdrop house. Meanwhile all the high elf nobles are too busy arguing who will teach the pottery class that afternoon to bother going out into the wilderness and killing giant wild cats.

As you can see my theory clearly lost steam towards the end...

bob_the_small
12-05-2009, 23:04
Here's my theory;

Assumedly a sea dragon is a large/huge creature. So when Elthanrir and his band of surly corsairs kill said beasty there is plenty of pelt to go around and the whole group gets some snazzy new armour with enough skin left over to sell to the arrogant dreadlords back in Clar Karond.
When a high elf kills a white lion on the other hand there would only really be enough pelt for 1-2 cloaks, one to put on his back and the other to use as a canvas for whatever wussy painting he is preparing back in his gumdrop house. Meanwhile all the high elf nobles are too busy arguing who will teach the pottery class that afternoon to bother going out into the wilderness and killing giant wild cats.

As you can see my theory clearly lost steam towards the end...

Well Gentlemen, I think our debate is solved... I congratulate you StormCrow...

Charistoph
12-05-2009, 23:28
Still, they could have made the White Lion Cloak available to one hero. This could either be a magical item, or ala WE Kindreds are set up. If you want to get real tight with it, it's only available to 1 combat Hero, must take a Great Weapon, or any magic weapon that is a Great Weapon.

Cambion Daystar
12-05-2009, 23:48
How about, it is not available, because you have to kill one of the beasties first, and when you kill one, you have to join the "while lions", and play bodyguard for the rest of your life?

xragg
13-05-2009, 00:10
High elf nobles are too busy trying to find the biggest lizard to ride then to surround themselves with pussycat fur.

Commissar Lord Davril
13-05-2009, 04:43
This is why we are a dying race, not enough lion pelts!

Alathir
13-05-2009, 07:04
Here's my theory;

Assumedly a sea dragon is a large/huge creature. So when Elthanrir and his band of surly corsairs kill said beasty there is plenty of pelt to go around and the whole group gets some snazzy new armour with enough skin left over to sell to the arrogant dreadlords back in Clar Karond.
When a high elf kills a white lion on the other hand there would only really be enough pelt for 1-2 cloaks, one to put on his back and the other to use as a canvas for whatever wussy painting he is preparing back in his gumdrop house. Meanwhile all the high elf nobles are too busy arguing who will teach the pottery class that afternoon to bother going out into the wilderness and killing giant wild cats.

As you can see my theory clearly lost steam towards the end...

Yes, this might be true but I don't see how the Dark Elves would ever find the time to kill said sea dragons, they all seem too busy having sex with their mothers.

Condottiere
13-05-2009, 08:04
I think killing a White Lion makes you eligible for Royal bodyguard, not necessarily automatically part of it. There are so many monsters left on Ulthuan, they could get themselves a Chimera pelt.

Darkspear
13-05-2009, 10:29
It is all a lie. Did you notice most sea dragon coats are painted in the same scheme as cold ones. Dark Elf characters simply flay the skins of their dead cold ones, wear it and claim that they killed sea dragons.

bob_the_small
13-05-2009, 17:30
It is all a lie. Did you notice most sea dragon coats are painted in the same scheme as cold ones. Dark Elf characters simply flay the skins of their dead cold ones, wear it and claim that they killed sea dragons.

Why dont the HE just flay some cats and call it lion pelts?

Condottiere
13-05-2009, 17:35
Probably did have some imported from Cathay, but discovered they don't provide the same protection from missiles.

theunwantedbeing
13-05-2009, 17:41
A sea dragon cloak is something a Dark elf can simply buy.
A lion cloak is something a High elf needs to go get himself, from the lion that is currently using it as skin and doesnt particularly want to let go of it.

Also, wearing a sea dragon cloak isnt a status symbol, a lion cloak is and due to that status they aren't able to become a noble/prince of any amount so are never hero's and such anymore.

As for being able to...your fluff changed, suck it up.

My DE sorceresses got more expensive and lost that far more useful +1 to cast for no apparent reason. Things change, live with it.

Condottiere
13-05-2009, 17:46
Your DE sorceress got Powers of Darkness - an extra dice is more useful than +1 to cast.

But I agree, if I were a White Lion, I wouldn't see any reason letting myself get sculpted just so some Yobbo gets a free windbreaker.

Emeraldw
13-05-2009, 18:20
didn't the values on the DE spells go down too?

Anyways, I can see why there might be fluff reasons for it, but you could just as easily sway fluff either way since it is malleable and very little is set in stone.

Though you can still model it, That would certainly look cool at least :D

Draconian77
13-05-2009, 18:28
Overall Druchii magic is a little weaker(and to be honest I dont think Elven magic is great anyway, base cost of a sorceress is insane...) but considering the buffs we got in other areas I really can't complain!

Does the difference in the cloaks matter that much? We have slightly better armour and you guys are immune to Flaming Skulls/Cannons. All square by my accounts.

LKHERO
13-05-2009, 18:35
A sea dragon cloak is something a Dark elf can simply buy.
A lion cloak is something a High elf needs to go get himself, from the lion that is currently using it as skin and doesnt particularly want to let go of it.

This.
Is.
It.

sulla
13-05-2009, 22:50
Right, I was wondering why Dark Elves are able to take Sea Dragon Cloaks on their Masters and Dreadlords, and High Elves are unable to take White Lion Pelts on their Nobles and Princes.... it just makes no sense at all... they do exactly the same thing!

BobPractically, the sea dragon cloak is worthwhile charging a DE master for. It gives him a save in combat.

Whereas a lion cloak is almost useless on any elf except one flying a dragon or other flying creature (Not exactly in keeping with the fluff of a sworn lion guard). Any other time, he won't be singled out so why pay points for it? Just model it on your character and be done with it.

But neither book is great for creating fluff characters anyway. As well as the lack of lion cloaks, nor can HE commanders be from the phoenix guard. As for DE, no shade masters (no scouting, even from a magic item), no temple guard captains (Can't even join the executioners) so both get quite a raw deal compared to the wood elves themewise.