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Arbiter7
15-05-2009, 17:43
Hello!

8 Eldar Warrior Aspects - only 6 Phoenix Lords

Dire Avengers - Asurmen
Howling Banshees - Zain Zar
Striking Scorpions - Karadras
Dark Reapers - Maugan Ra
Fire Dragons - Fuegan
Swooping Hawks - Baharroth


How come there are no Phoenix Lords for the Warp Spiders and the Shining Spears??

Lord Damocles
15-05-2009, 17:48
How come the Slicing Orbs don't have one either?


Possibly the Pheonix Lords of these aspects arn't the awesome killing machines that their more famous cousins are (making them more like Exarchs in terms of power).

Possibly they spend more of their time founding shrines and training others than fighting.

Maybe Warp Spider Man was lost in the warp while using his (or her) jump generator (regular aspect warriors dissapear often enough).

Possibly their broken suits of armour lay on some forgotton battlefield waiting for an Eldar to find and don them.

Idaan
15-05-2009, 17:57
There are more than 6 Phoenix Lords though. It's only that the Asurya are the most well known and powerful ones, starters of their respective Aspects. Any Exarch can become a Phoenix Lord given enough time and accumulated souls, and usually they come from destroyed shrines. So while there might be a Warp Spider and Shining Spear Lord, it's not required.
Seriously, that needs to become a sticky along with the missing Primarchs.

Qualdinesh
15-05-2009, 18:38
Warp Spider Phoenix Lords don't last long enough to become known lol :)

Rockerfella
15-05-2009, 19:06
Well, who's the hard ass in Eldar Prophecy? Surely he's a warp spider Phoenix Lord, no?

AdmiralDick
15-05-2009, 19:10
i'm not convinced that their is any necessity for every aspect to have a Phoenix Lord, nor that their only be one per aspect. i suspect that most Eldar still regard Ahra as a Phoenix Lord, albeit a rather perverse kind, even though Karandras is around.

Arbiter7
15-05-2009, 19:15
Should one assume that Ahra:


1) Is tainted by chaos, meaning he has succumbed to his murderous instincts but is still basically an Eldar and is somewhere out there...murdering stuff

OR

2) Has gone completely bonkers and become something of a badass chaos lord :wtf: that would make primarchs poop their pants (I mean look at karadras and his 7A, 7I, 8S on the charge and allows no armor saves. I can't imagine how his "murderous" predecessor of the most killer-instinct aspect would be like on the loose.

Maidel
15-05-2009, 22:56
Fluff reason - some of them 'died' and left their armour in an inaccessable place and thus, no eldar has found it yet and 'become' the exarch yet.

OR

They didnt ever have one - only those who were taught by ausruran can be called phoenix lords and thus, its just those 6 +(an unnamed one or two who havent been mentioned yet)

OR

The non fluff reason - GW made the phoenix lord models before introducing the shinning spears or warp spiders.

Inquisitor Engel
16-05-2009, 02:22
Well, who's the hard ass in Eldar Prophecy? Surely he's a warp spider Phoenix Lord, no?

No, because Eldanesh is dead. :rolleyes:

wolfslough
16-05-2009, 02:26
Isn't Ahra off making incubi in the webway? Pretty sure that's why Karandas stepped in.

Raibaru
16-05-2009, 03:09
Arhra is mia. No one knows where he is. The Incubi are effectively his descendants and it has never been written that they know where he is. Hopefully if/when Dark Eldar are redone we'll be given more information.

captainramoz
16-05-2009, 03:40
Isn't Ahra off making incubi in the webway? Pretty sure that's why Karandas stepped in.

Ahra is the former striking scorpions lord.
Shining spears are misterious even for eldar so nearly nothing is known about them
and warp spiders exarch is called Lorelei I think I believe he is actually in the webway or something

Rockerfella
16-05-2009, 08:47
No, because Eldanesh is dead. :rolleyes:

Erm, thats not Eldanesh though. Have you read the book?

Its a normal warp spider aspirant who manages to stumble into some awesome ancient golden warpspider armour, and then becomes possessed by it. He's capable of amazing feats of martial awesomness once he's wearing this armour. He's called the 'Lykoside'.. or something similar to that.

Idaan
16-05-2009, 11:43
But Lhykosidae is quite ambiguous in that it is mentioned a few times that he really isn't an Eldar Exarch but rather a personification of the Kaelor's Warp Spiders. Which I find pretty :wtf:-worthy. But it is just as possible that the Kaelorians are wrong in their beliefs. Still it is strange that Naois retains his consciousness and personality while wearing the suit rather than merging with the dominant persona of the suit.



They didnt ever have one - only those who were taught by ausruran can be called phoenix lords and thus, its just those 6 +(an unnamed one or two who havent been mentioned yet)No evidence supports it. Even Karandras wasn't Asurmen's pupil.

Messiah
16-05-2009, 12:20
As has been mentioned countless time before, Asuryans pupils are called the asurya and logic states they are limited in number. Phoenix lords however, could be as numerous as the craftworlds or more. Just because they are not famous in this time, does not mean they havent been or will be, they might just be lying around as empty suits of armour on a forgotten planet, waiting for someone to discover it and be awake again.

Rockerfella
16-05-2009, 16:47
Is a human soul strong enough to kick start the suit into action? I mean..... we know the farseer in farseer can 'inhabit' humans through the soul stone, so could the suit feasably inhabit, or visa versa- a human occupant?

Does that make sense?

Condottiere
16-05-2009, 17:51
Yes, it makes sense. Any number variations of this theme can be found in comics, cartoons and anime. Even TV - Greatest American Hero.

Kveld-Ulf
16-05-2009, 17:58
And warp spiders exarch is called Lorelei I think I believe he is actually in the webway or something

"The files are in the computer?"

Strangely enough I've never heard anything about those two Phoenix Lords either. It probably just ended up being released prior to Warp Spiders and Shining Spears. It would be nice to have more info though, and some on Ahra as well. But that's like asking for more information on the missing Primarchs and the remaining ones in general.

Wait I've got it... the two lost Primarchs and the two missing Phoenix Lords are actually off somewhere doing something else. In a galaxy far far away.

captainramoz
16-05-2009, 18:09
As has been mentioned countless time before, Asuryans pupils are called the asurya and logic states they are limited in number. Phoenix lords however, could be as numerous as the craftworlds or more. Just because they are not famous in this time, does not mean they havent been or will be, they might just be lying around as empty suits of armour on a forgotten planet, waiting for someone to discover it and be awake again.
Just like saint seiya saints.
Some saints armours didn't had a saint just like some phoenix lord armour don't have a lord inside.
In the best case maibe a powerfull and worthy warp spider/shining spear could reclaim that armour

Lamhirh
16-05-2009, 19:23
I like to think of them as more of a combination of Saint Seiya and Witchblade ;).

Maidel
16-05-2009, 20:12
No evidence supports it. Even Karandras wasn't Asurmen's pupil.

Actually - thats not true either.

Nothing says he wasnt - it says he was ardras pupil - but like most things there is nothing to say he wasnt asurmens pupil as well.


Its a bit like obi wan saying 'he wished he'd trained anakin as well as yoda had taught him....'

Everyone cried foul when they saw that obi wan had another master called qui gon.

Then you realise that yoda had taught ALL the jedi first and then they went on to their new masters.

So right back at the begining where does it say that Asurmen didnt train ALL the new aspect warriors and then pass them on to the right 'master'.

Sheena Easton
16-05-2009, 21:29
Erm, thats not Eldanesh though. Have you read the book?

Its a normal warp spider aspirant who manages to stumble into some awesome ancient golden warpspider armour, and then becomes possessed by it. He's capable of amazing feats of martial awesomness once he's wearing this armour. He's called the 'Lykoside'.. or something similar to that.

That "book" does nothing aside from crap over EVERY bit of established background for the Eldar race from a great height and is not worth the paper it is written on. A Craftworld that actively and openly worships Slaanesh?!? WTF?!? :wtf:Anything it contains is therefore utter crap. Which it is. See the "glossary" in the back which has to tell you why things occur because they are NOT canon...

Idaan
16-05-2009, 21:37
It goes out of its way to describe that Kaelor isn't a standard Craftworld but rather one that's been isolated for most of its existence. While I'm not a great fan of that book, I see that it was more of a problem with BL forbidding Goto from touching on mainstream Eldar culture and their other weird taboos, such as Xenos being forbidden from winning against Imperium. The appendix was pretty promising and book could have been pretty good given right circumstances.


Actually - thats not true either.

Nothing says he wasnt - it says he was ardras pupil - but like most things there is nothing to say he wasnt asurmens pupil as well.A bit of a mental shortcut on my part. He became a Phoenix Lord after he was a Scorpion Exarch, which means he had to train under Ahra as a Striking Scorpion. While he could have trained under Asurmen earlier as a Dire Avenger, he had to be a Scorpion immediately before becoming a Lord. So he is directly Ahra's pupil, regardless of his former apprenticeship.

Maidel
16-05-2009, 21:59
A bit of a mental shortcut on my part. He became a Phoenix Lord after he was a Scorpion Exarch, which means he had to train under Ahra as a Striking Scorpion. While he could have trained under Asurmen earlier as a Dire Avenger, he had to be a Scorpion immediately before becoming a Lord. So he is directly Ahra's pupil, regardless of his former apprenticeship.

No - unfortunately, based on that, none of the phoenix lords would have individual aspects - if everyone trained by arsurmen became a dire avenger then ardra, baltrhoth et al would all be dire avengers.

Logically, asurmen trained a group of eldar who founded their own shrines. Its never been mentioned if he trained 100 eldar and split them into 5 groups with the 'best' as the exarch of the group who later became the phoenix lord.

The thing is, its never stated what happened - in the same way its never stated if there even are any other phoenix lords other than those named.

LexxBomb
17-05-2009, 04:37
Well, who's the hard ass in Eldar Prophecy? Surely he's a warp spider Phoenix Lord, no?

actually "Eldar Prophecies" states that in its appendix that the 'bad ass' (Lhykosidae) is probably the warp spider Phoenix Lord

Lhykosidae - Wraith Spider - A mythical warrior from the legends of the Warp Spiders Aspect, allegedly a kind of exarch or even Asurya that is somehow constituted from the warp essence of the tiny crystalline creatures that purify the infinity circuit of Kaelor

Lord-Caerolion
17-05-2009, 10:30
What my interpretation of the Ahra/Karandras relationship always is that they both trained under Asurman. However, unlike every other one of the pupils, they had a very similar fighting style. Due to this, both saw themselves as fighting in the Aspect of Khaine-As-Striking-Scorpion, with Ahra taking a more aggressive idea of the Aspect, Karandras more patient/hunter-like.
Eventually, Ahra went rogue, and left Karandras as the sole Striking Scorpion.

Maidel
17-05-2009, 10:36
What my interpretation of the Ahra/Karandras relationship always is that they both trained under Asurman. However, unlike every other one of the pupils, they had a very similar fighting style. Due to this, both saw themselves as fighting in the Aspect of Khaine-As-Striking-Scorpion, with Ahra taking a more aggressive idea of the Aspect, Karandras more patient/hunter-like.
Eventually, Ahra went rogue, and left Karandras as the sole Striking Scorpion.

EVeryone will cry foul and say 'thats not now it happened' however the only thing we know is the 'ardra' was the oldest of the scorpions - therefore he must have been recruited before karandras. So your theory is as valid as anyone elses.

For some reason everyone has made their mind up that certain things happened in a certain way, despite it not being written down like that.

Lord-Caerolion
17-05-2009, 10:51
Yeah, and this is why GW needs to write some background on what actually happened between the two, and explain that the 'Phoenix Lords' are a special sort of Phoenix Lord called the Asurya.
Until then, we'll just have endless theories, and endless "why aren't there Spider/Spear Phoenix Lords?" threads...

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 10:58
actually "Eldar Prophecies" states that in its appendix that the 'bad ass' (Lhykosidae) is probably the warp spider Phoenix Lord

Lhykosidae - Wraith Spider - A mythical warrior from the legends of the Warp Spiders Aspect, allegedly a kind of exarch or even Asurya that is somehow constituted from the warp essence of the tiny crystalline creatures that purify the infinity circuit of Kaelor

I thought as much. He did come across as a Phoenix Lord, lets be honest. Everyone was kinda scared, and in awe of him.

Crap book, good character.

Maidel
17-05-2009, 11:00
Until then, we'll just have endless theories, and endless "why aren't there Spider/Spear Phoenix Lords?" threads...

Which I explained in my first post :D

LexxBomb
17-05-2009, 11:06
Thanks Rockerfella, I know we dont always see eye to eye...

if we then take the Lhykosidae as the Warp Spider Apect Phoenix Lord then we can extrapolate what it must be like when an Exarch 'dons' the armour of a Phoenix Lord and becomes the Phoenix Lord... The imagry in the book is quite descriptive and as such could give us the greatest understanding in how an Exarch transforms into the Phoenix Lord... it also gives details into the levels and specialities of Exarchs within a given aspect... I would love to see the Psychic Warp Spider Exarch on the table top as an option... I found her the scariest of them all.

Lord-Caerolion
17-05-2009, 11:07
I know, and I agree with what you said. My point is that until it's published canon, people will ask this question again and again.

Maidel
17-05-2009, 11:12
I know, and I agree with what you said. My point is that until it's published canon, people will ask this question again and again.

Oh definately - I was trying to be amusing, not objectionable.

lets add this to the 'why are all models white, and why are there no gay characters and all the other threads that appear every other week.'

I went away for a few months and it was the same threads I came back to :D

Lord-Caerolion
17-05-2009, 11:18
I second that suggestion! I hope that one day we'll reach a stage when nobody asks questions like that... then GW'll probably change the fluff, and we'll have brand new annoying questions!

Fulgrim's Gimp
17-05-2009, 11:44
The first dark eldar codex was pretty plain in saying that Arhra was the Dark Father of the Incubi.

Firstly when Incubi were attacking Striking Scorpions they were recognised as being followers of the fallen Phoenix

Secondly all incubi fight amongst themselves and take the arms and armour of their vanquished opponents. It then mentioned some have challenged the Dark Father but whether they live or died none could say this to me indicates that if an Incubi beat the Dark Father he'd don his armour and become him as he was a Phoenix Lord.

Lord-Caerolion
17-05-2009, 13:29
The first Dark Eldar codex? You mean the long-awaited second codex has been released?

Sorry about that, but yes, the codex does strongly hint that Ahra founded the Incubi, but we can never really be sure, knowing GW.

Maidel
17-05-2009, 17:08
The first Dark Eldar codex? You mean the long-awaited second codex has been released?.

Well they did release a revised codex.... thats 2 codex that they have had - what are you complaining about :D

NightrawenII
17-05-2009, 20:42
As has been mentioned countless time before, Asuryans pupils are called the asurya and logic states they are limited in number. Phoenix lords however, could be as numerous as the craftworlds or more. Just because they are not famous in this time, does not mean they havent been or will be, they might just be lying around as empty suits of armour on a forgotten planet, waiting for someone to discover it and be awake again.

I know its wrong, but:
The title 'Phoenix Lord' is simple translation of Eldar word 'Asurya'.
If you think about it Asuryan, head god of Eldar pantheon is called Phoenix King. And by following this way of thinking the Shrine of Asur is Shrine of Phoenix and Asuryata is the 'Legend of the Phoenix Lords'.

Maidel
17-05-2009, 22:03
I know its wrong, but:
The title 'Phoenix Lord' is simple translation of Eldar word 'Asurya'.
If you think about it Asuryan, head god of Eldar pantheon is called Phoenix King. And by following this way of thinking the Shrine of Asur is Shrine of Phoenix and Asuryata is the 'Legend of the Phoenix Lords'.

Ive tried saying this before - but people just throw 'all asuya are phoenix lord, but not all phoenix lords are asurya' at me.

And when I asked them to explain it they point at karandras - and as ive tried to show so far in this thread, there isnt anything to say he WASNT an asurya, but they just ignore it.

For me (And I assume for you) Phoenix lord = Asurya and thats how I think its intended.

Poseidal
17-05-2009, 22:11
The 6 aspect shrines were the originals and we can probably assume that all others are derived from these. Whether or not Spider or Spear lords exist, those six are the strongest.

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 22:13
Thanks Rockerfella, I know we dont always see eye to eye...

if we then take the Lhykosidae as the Warp Spider Apect Phoenix Lord then we can extrapolate what it must be like when an Exarch 'dons' the armour of a Phoenix Lord and becomes the Phoenix Lord... The imagry in the book is quite descriptive and as such could give us the greatest understanding in how an Exarch transforms into the Phoenix Lord... it also gives details into the levels and specialities of Exarchs within a given aspect... I would love to see the Psychic Warp Spider Exarch on the table top as an option... I found her the scariest of them all.

Yeah, its interesting isn't it, that transformation scene in the secret crypt in the aspect temple. Its almost as though the suit picks the wearer. Does that make sense?

Maidel
17-05-2009, 22:15
Yeah, its interesting isn't it, that transformation scene in the secret crypt in the aspect temple. Its almost as though the suit picks the wearer. Does that make sense?

Thats pretty much how all the phoenix lords are described isnt it?

The suit can lay dormant for years in an obscure place waiting for the RIGHT eldar to find it.

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 22:26
I'm not sure. For some reason, I thought it was a case of whoever staggers into the suit, gets eaten by it.

I'm still curious as to what would happen if the suit 'chose' a human occupant. Or would that never, ever happen, do you think? I mean, the suit and Phoenix lord would still be Eldar, but just be kick started by a human soul, of it were strong enough.

Maidel
17-05-2009, 22:32
I'm still curious as to what would happen if the suit 'chose' a human occupant. Or would that never, ever happen, do you think? I mean, the suit and Phoenix lord would still be Eldar, but just be kick started by a human soul, of it were strong enough.

HAHA - talk about co-incidence - I almost posted exactly the same thing - but I was worried about eldar players bashing me over the head with fluff and running me out of town.

Rockerfella
17-05-2009, 22:34
HAHA - talk about co-incidence - I almost posted exactly the same thing - but I was worried about eldar players bashing me over the head with fluff and running me out of town.

well, there you go. See, maybe Eldar players aren't quite as extreme as some would have us believe. I mean, they wouldn't run one of their own out of town. Right? *looks round nervously* ;)

Maidel
17-05-2009, 22:38
well, there you go. See, maybe Eldar players aren't quite as extreme as some would have us believe. I mean, they wouldn't run one of their own out of town. Right? *looks round nervously* ;)

Well you are one, Im one.

Make you a deal - dont run me out of town and I wont run you out of town...

Although ironically if we both did that at the same time we would both be in each others towns and unable to run the other one out....


ANYWAY - back on topic.

If a human could truely represent the aspect of the phoenix lord, then I dont see why not.

IT would be an interresting test to see which of our two theorys was right - if a human found a suit and when he touched it it 'ate' him then we know the suits latch on to the first one it sees and goes with that. If it ignored him then we know it actively choses its wearer.

kikkoman
17-05-2009, 22:39
I'm not sure. For some reason, I thought it was a case of whoever staggers into the suit, gets eaten by it.

yup, just that it's the infinitely complex twsting skeins of fate and guiding forces of destiny that picks the staggeree to stagger at the right place at the right time for the right moment to coincidentally accidentally come across the Phoenix Lord armor.



I'm still curious as to what would happen if the suit 'chose' a human occupant. Or would that never, ever happen, do you think? I mean, the suit and Phoenix lord would still be Eldar, but just be kick started by a human soul, of it were strong enough.
I'm tellin' ya, Snikrot is gonna inheret the Karandras armor.

Poseidal
17-05-2009, 22:41
IT would be an interresting test to see which of our two theorys was right - if a human found a suit and when he touched it it 'ate' him then we know the suits latch on to the first one it sees and goes with that. If it ignored him then we know it actively choses its wearer.

It could still have chose the Human though...

Maidel
17-05-2009, 22:43
It could still have chose the Human though...

Yea.. I know...

I was hoping people wouldnt notice that flaw...

Im running myself out of town on this one... :D

Eumerin
18-05-2009, 08:56
I'm still curious as to what would happen if the suit 'chose' a human occupant. Or would that never, ever happen, do you think? I mean, the suit and Phoenix lord would still be Eldar, but just be kick started by a human soul, of it were strong enough.

I've thought a little in the past about what might happen if a human ended up in an Exarch's suit. My guess at the time was that you'd end up with a partly mad individual - neither Eldar nor Human in outlook. The personality of the human wearing the armor would be alien to the Eldar personalities that are a part of the armor, and the result would be a confused mixture of both races.

The real fun, though, was speculating on what might happen if the human died while wearing the armor. Would his personality ALSO be incorporated into the armor's personality? And if that armor was worn by enough humans, woudl it eventually become more "attuned" to a human wearer than it would to an eldar wearer?

NightrawenII
18-05-2009, 11:44
It could still have chose the Human though...

Omnipresent voice:"Filthy Mon-Keigh ape! How you dare touch the Suit of the Khaines chosen one! As soon as we gain a wearer, we will kill you in very terrible and painfull way!!!":D

Joking aside. I dont think, the suit will chose the human. Humans dont worship Khaine for the start and any "normal" human dont have skills of the aspect warrior in the end.

Hydra Dominatus
18-05-2009, 12:08
I second the call for snikrot to inherit the skorpion armour!!

Idaan
18-05-2009, 15:45
I don't see a reason why it wouldn't choose a human if he was the only being on the planet and the Phoenix Lord had some important mission. Afterall, a soul is a soul, it still activates the suit and the human will soon be lost in backdrop of all other powerful Exarch souls so he won't corrupt the suit or turn it against the Eldar.
Hell, it seems that it's an awesome idea for a story or a book, even if it is another book about the Eldar with no Eldar main character. Imagine, the only human to be part of the Exarch's suit, to see through its eyes, to be the only human to ever deserve Eldar respect.

Rockerfella
18-05-2009, 15:49
I've thought a little in the past about what might happen if a human ended up in an Exarch's suit. My guess at the time was that you'd end up with a partly mad individual - neither Eldar nor Human in outlook. The personality of the human wearing the armor would be alien to the Eldar personalities that are a part of the armor, and the result would be a confused mixture of both races. See, I don't think this would be the case. I don't think the human soul would be nearly strong enough to overcome and assert itself and essence on the possibly thousands of Eldar souls within the suit, and certainly not the original soul of the phoenix lord residing in there. I think the human voice would be a tiny whisper on the wind, one that the dominant Eldar soul would only occasionally listen closely to if it felt the human aspect would be useful.

Elvani
18-05-2009, 16:51
Eldar Prophecy... That C. S. Goto... why?

Now, I don't really want to turn this thread into another one that just berates his lack of a lot of 40K fluff, but random Guardians carrying Shuriken Cannons? It just made me cry inside. And Guardians with Witchblades... then Warp spider with Witch Blades... it got worse and worse...

Although a golden warp spider does sound pretty cool.

And I hope that GW do eventually release a Shining Spread Phoenix Lord. That would be quite cool. Maybe when those new Jetbikes we saw a while ago in the rumour forum get released?

Idaan
18-05-2009, 16:55
There's nothing to suggest that the Guardians can carry only the weapons they carry in tabletop army list. The Witchblades were a gift from the Seer House to Khukulyn and later were taken from his body by Naois. It was a special case.

Elvani
18-05-2009, 17:00
There's nothing to suggest that the Guardians can carry only the weapons they carry in tabletop army list.

Well, considering that most Eldar are quite physically weak, and Shuriken cannons are mounted on tanks or jetbikes, except for the 3rd ed Dark Reaper Exarch and Maugan Ra, it doesn't seem right that some random guardian just lugs one about.


The Witchblades were a gift from the Seer House to Khukulyn and later were taken from his body by Naois. It was a special case.

Yeah, I suppose, but still, witchblades are more of a warlock-y or Farseer-y weapon in my view. Again, doesn't seem proper for some guardian (ok, a slightly more important guardian than usual) to carry them about. Couldn't Naois be pleased with his powerblades? They ignore armour saves, maybe not wounding on a 2+, but still...

Radium
18-05-2009, 17:10
I'm not sure. For some reason, I thought it was a case of whoever staggers into the suit, gets eaten by it.

I'm still curious as to what would happen if the suit 'chose' a human occupant. Or would that never, ever happen, do you think? I mean, the suit and Phoenix lord would still be Eldar, but just be kick started by a human soul, of it were strong enough.

I think even a dead Eldar suit would be too arrogant to be worn by humans.

As for why we don't have PL's for the other aspects: I've always thought the phoenix lords were the Asurya, and others could equal their power (eventually...) they wouldn't be recognised as a PL, but rather as a very powerful exarch.

Idaan
18-05-2009, 17:13
Well, considering that most Eldar are quite physically weakThey aren't. They are on average equally strong to a human with some having potential to be stronger or weaker. Also it doesn't say that it was a tabletop version of Shuriken Cannon or some unrepresented minigun-esque man-portable thing. You should also take into account the Eldar craftsmanship that could with its light material, superb balance etc make the weapon man-portable.


Yeah, I suppose, but still, witchblades are more of a warlock-y or Farseer-y weapon in my view.Hence they were a gift from one. Prince Yriel uses a singing spear, that is a spear-shaped witchblade and nobody complains either.

I'm not saying that this book is great and cool and whatnot. Just that it had a few good and inspiring ideas and that there are worse things than that.
That and I like being advocatus diaboli.


As for why we don't have PL's for the other aspects: I've always thought the phoenix lords were the Asurya, and others could equal their power (eventually...) they wouldn't be recognised as a PL, but rather as a very powerful exarch.The arguments mentioned earlier still stand. Besides as I've just checked the El Daradanel artifact from Craftworld Eldar Codex says that the Asurya are literally "children of Asurmen" and it doesn't mention Karandras as one of them.

NightrawenII
18-05-2009, 19:37
The arguments mentioned earlier still stand. Besides as I've just checked the El Daradanel artifact from Craftworld Eldar Codex says that the Asurya are literally "children of Asurmen" and it doesn't mention Karandras as one of them.

Questionable.
It states, The children of Asurmen, the Asurya, carried the ways..... So this can mean anything.
Karandras isnt mentioned, because it speak only about the Founders of the Shrines, Ahra founded Striking Scorpions after all.

LexxBomb
18-05-2009, 22:52
Well, considering that most Eldar are quite physically weak, and Shuriken cannons are mounted on tanks or jetbikes, except for the 3rd ed Dark Reaper Exarch and Maugan Ra, it doesn't seem right that some random guardian just lugs one about.



um I dont see the problem given that Death Jesters can run around with a Shuriken cannon and still do backflips and cartwheels.

Hellebore
19-05-2009, 01:52
The suit is full of eldar warrior souls and is there to protect the eldar people. A human cannot attain the levels of perfection an eldar can nor is he interested in protecting the eldar race. So I can't see the souls of the suit accepting a non eldar (and a non warrior either) as a wearer.

This has been argued many times. Phoenix lords are very old exarchs. Their suits function in an identical fashion to an exarch's suit. It's just that an exarch goes to war alongside his craftworld and so his suit will be picked up if he dies. Exarch suits are presented to the next eldar attaining exarchhood in their shrine. Phoenix Lords have no shrine so no one to take their suit (and they are picky).

The difference between a phoenix lord and an exarch is a matter of age and the lack of a shrine.

In the 31st millennium a phoenix lord would have just been a powerful exarch. Now after 10,000 years they are daemon princes.

Hellebore

Rockerfella
19-05-2009, 12:42
um I dont see the problem given that Death Jesters can run around with a Shuriken cannon and still do backflips and cartwheels.

They do use, erm... what are they called... grav belts, or something though.

I think;)

GraveGuard
19-05-2009, 16:28
They do use, erm... what are they called... grav belts, or something though.

I think;)

FlipBelts. They alter the gravity field around the wear allowing for even more insane stunts, height and speed.

kikkoman
19-05-2009, 17:34
Although a golden warp spider does sound pretty cool.

find more two golden warp spiders, and you get a heart piece.

One of those old space crusade Eldar models had them lugging around shuriken cannons and lascannons.
Dark Eldar also lug around lances and splinter cannons.

Though I guess the Eldar make it a rule that only Exarch's and Warlocks are allowed to carry weapons thicker than their own torso.

Maidel
19-05-2009, 19:29
The difference between a phoenix lord and an exarch is a matter of age and the lack of a shrine.


You see - this is what always gets wheeled out when the subject of the phoenix lords is brought up.

Its not whats implied by what is written there.

A phoenix lord is not a phoenix lord because he lost his shrine. The phoenix lords are so old that their shrines no longer exist - as it says about asurmens shrine being built on the first barren world they came to after the fall.

Also - saying that they have no shrines is wrong - under the asurmen entry it says 'he founded more shrines on more craftworlds than any other phoenix lord'

The implication by that is that, unlike other exarches, they have never been 'bound' to one shrine.

To be a phoenix lord you need to have founded an aspect (Karandras barewith me here). Thats what separates them from an exarch who is merely a follower.

Ok - karandras - the 'odd one out' the one who everyone uses to say proves that not all phoenix lords are Asurya. Well - he might be. As I said above he could well have been 'one of the first' exarches - however he wasnt chosen first and thus adra was the first scorpion. He fell, karandras took his place. Simple. Its the exception to the rule, rather than the begining of a different rule (if that makes sense).

I really do appologise for jumping on your post like that. But some of us 'chapter masters' who think we have all seen every arguement before often close down discussions because we have seen it all before - but just because one 'discussion' seemed to settle the debate, its just not the case in this instance.

Poseidal
19-05-2009, 21:43
All Phoenix Lords are still called Exarchs though. What is meant by no shrine is they aren't bound to a single place. Obviously, a Howling Banshee Shrine is Jain-Zar's; but she isn't bound to it and moves on.

The original Aspect Warriors who became Exarchs and then Phoenix Lords all started off on Asurmen's original shrine which is now destroyed.

We know Karandras is a Phoenix Lord and we know he did not found the Scorpion shrine.

I think the problem is, Exarchs are too downplayed by the rules currently. They should almost peerless; SM Captains and most of the warriors shouldn't compare with them.

Maidel
19-05-2009, 22:10
All Phoenix Lords are still called Exarchs though.

Which is no different from saying that all Chapter masters are space marines. Or all named greater daemons are just daemons. Words like that have no definition of scale. You might as well say all phoenix lords are still called eldar. Its not untrue, but its bringing it down in an unintended way.


What is meant by no shrine is they aren't bound to a single place. Obviously, a Howling Banshee Shrine is Jain-Zar's; but she isn't bound to it and moves on.

Yup - I agree - but thats not what other people are implying (or at least thats not what I understand by what they are saying) Ive always read it that people imply that if you have an exarch who loses his shrine, and given enough time, they will become a phoenix lord. Which for me, is just plain wrong.


The original Aspect Warriors who became Exarchs and then Phoenix Lords all started off on Asurmen's original shrine which is now destroyed.

We know Karandras is a Phoenix Lord and we know he did not found the Scorpion shrine.

All true- dont disagree. Appart from the fact that Im not sure his shrine is destroyed - I susspect its been swallowed up in the eye as it was on a planet obviously not far from the eldar home world. Anyone want to place bets that slaanessh has some hideous daemon court there? :D


I think the problem is, Exarchs are too downplayed by the rules currently. They should almost peerless; SM Captains and most of the warriors shouldn't compare with them.

I dont necessarily disagree, however, I dont think they are in the same league as the phoenix lords. More to the point, I dont think they ever could become one.

If you think about it, its been 10,000 years since the fall. Exarches are, in effect, immortal, so dont worry about deaths (Sure there will be a few that lost their armour entirely, but thats not worth factoring in)

If each of the 6 known phoenix lords trained 10,000 aspect warriors and 100 of those became exarches. Say every 100 years the same thing happens again (we are talking about billions of eldar still - these are very concervative numbers)

over time that is 100,000 exarches. Now, I realse that many of them are going to be inheriting the previous generations armour, however, there must be 'new' exarches made from time to time, so assume that of those 100, 10 are new each time. So, there are in existance 10,100 suits of exarch armour each with generations of experiance, 10 will be very young and 100 will be very old.

If you assume (logically) that each suit/exarch grows in power over time as it amasses the souls of previous exarches some of those will be very powerful. Basically, must point is that of those 10,100 exarchs, 100 are only slightly younger than the phoenix lords and 10 are 100 years younger and 10 are 200 years younger etc.

So you are talking about 6 (known) phoenix lords who have lived for 10,000 years and 100 more 'ancient exarches' who are effectively phoenix lords who have existed for 99.99% of the time that the initial phoenix lords have existed for and thus should be 99.99% as powerful.


What I am getting at in a very convoluted way is that the phoenix lords are SPECIAL, they arent just any old exarch whoes lived a long time - otherwise there would be 1,000s of eldar running around calling themselves phoenix lords and having 99.99% of the abilities of the phoenix lords.

For me, this simply doent work. There is a finite amount of power a normal exarch can have, and the named phoenix lords (+ a few others) have a great deal more power and are 'special'.

Wheres my evidence for this - well frankly, every codex ever written for the eldar (including rogue trader/second edtion) they never introduced 'scalable' exarches, which to me, implies they dont exist.

Poseidal
19-05-2009, 22:37
Wheres my evidence for this - well frankly, every codex ever written for the eldar (including rogue trader/second edtion) they never introduced 'scalable' exarches, which to me, implies they dont exist.

There's a reason for this though. In 1st ed, Exarchs had stats about as good as a Marine Commander (ie Human Major Hero).

In 2nd, the Phoenix Lords were introduced but were only one 'hero' step above Exarchs (with extra S and T though); by this time Marinehammer had come about as well as truly silly things with Inquisitors having better stats than any Marine commander and Eldar heroes...

Anyway

The Eldar Codex does say there are more Phoenix Lords than the six, but those six are the greatest and most powerful.

Maidel
19-05-2009, 22:46
The Eldar Codex does say there are more Phoenix Lords than the six, but those six are the greatest and most powerful.

IT does?

Really - ive missed that. Not that I dont think there are a few more. Please can you point me to that bit.

Poseidal
19-05-2009, 23:03
IT does?

Really - ive missed that. Not that I dont think there are a few more. Please can you point me to that bit.

It's actually in the 2nd ed book, I was reading both at the same time and mixed the two up.

Page 82; "Among the most powerful of Phoenix Lords are those that founded the Warrior Aspects..." is the quote.

Maidel
19-05-2009, 23:07
Nice find. Just because its old, doesnt mean its wrong.

Thank you.

Rockerfella
19-05-2009, 23:07
Interesting.

Didn't Karandras feature in the last campiagn? I'm sure he was seen sitting under a tree, talking with an Eldar woman. But he 'raged' quite a lot, apparently.

Can we open a discussion upon the nature of the Phoenix Lords? By that I mean, would you be able to have a sensible conversation with one, or are they just literally single minded, weirdo, spychotic killing machines who can't relate to anything 'normal' anymore?

Just wanted your thoughts on this. Cheers.

Poseidal
19-05-2009, 23:14
Interesting.

Didn't Karandras feature in the last campiagn? I'm sure he was seen sitting under a tree, talking with an Eldar woman. But he 'raged' quite a lot, apparently.

Can we open a discussion upon the nature of the Phoenix Lords? By that I mean, would you be able to have a sensible conversation with one, or are they just literally single minded, weirdo, spychotic killing machines who can't relate to anything 'normal' anymore?

Just wanted your thoughts on this. Cheers.

Maybe something in the vein of this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196599) perhaps? :D

Maidel
19-05-2009, 23:16
Interesting.

Didn't Karandras feature in the last campiagn? I'm sure he was seen sitting under a tree, talking with an Eldar woman. But he 'raged' quite a lot, apparently.

Can we open a discussion upon the nature of the Phoenix Lords? By that I mean, would you be able to have a sensible conversation with one, or are they just literally single minded, weirdo, spychotic killing machines who can't relate to anything 'normal' anymore?

Just wanted your thoughts on this. Cheers.

Ok - I KNOW we've had this conversation before. :D

You even brought up that same scene and someone tried to claim it didnt happen and you needed to find quotes. :p


My position back then was that they have moved beyond normal life and thus cannot interact in the same way.

However, on reflection they are almost entirely ruled by their initial 'founder' whoes spirit is so strong each new wearer takes on that mind.

Therefore, they must have some form of normality and be able to interract with other eldar as the first wearer would have done.

However I feel they would be very 'distracted' as they are obviously driven beyond the normal measure of an eldar - which is probably why karandras 'raged' a lot.

Its like soliders who came back from WW2 often said they couldnt be alone or away from groups. When in company they were normal, if a little distant, but when left alone or in limited company it allows them to become intraspective which puts them on edge. I see the same here. When in groups of eldar (or 'hunting the webways or whatever) they have that drive to teach and improve or simply flight, but when left to have a solitary conversation they find it hard to disengage from their warlike life.

I cant see them 'comming home' dumping their kit bag on the table and asking the mrs whats for dinner.

Fulgrim's Gimp
19-05-2009, 23:18
Wasn't there an old WD when a mortally wounded Karandras stumbled through a gate into a striking scorp shrine and the Exarch tended him and saw visions of all the battles he took part in until he touched him and became Karandras and his body was left all mummy-like. May have implied interacting with a PL is more a psychic show and tell rather than a conversation.

Alternatively with Karandras being in that state when he showed up maybe he was having a really,really bad day and wasn't up for a meet and greet.

Maidel
19-05-2009, 23:21
Alternatively with Karandras being in that state when he showed up maybe he was having a really,really bad day and wasn't up for a meet and greet.

I can imagine that meeting with a dying demi-god isnt often a pleasent experiance. Wrong place, wrong time id guess.

Rockerfella
19-05-2009, 23:23
Ok - I KNOW we've had this conversation before. :D

You even brought up that same scene and someone tried to claim it didnt happen and you needed to find quotes. :p Did that really happen? Have we really been here before? Man... my memory is so bad lately. See, i'v got crap loads on with uni and work, and i'm just way too distracted myself. Maybe I should wander off, under a tree, and 'rage' at a fair, pointy eared maiden?



My position back then was that they have moved beyond normal life and thus cannot interact in the same way.

However, on reflection they are almost entirely ruled by their initial 'founder' whoes spirit is so strong each new wearer takes on that mind.

Therefore, they must have some form of normality and be able to interract with other eldar as the first wearer would have done.

However I feel they would be very 'distracted' as they are obviously driven beyond the normal measure of an eldar - which is probably why karandras 'raged' a lot.

Its like soliders who came back from WW2 often said they couldnt be alone or away from groups. When in company they were normal, if a little distant, but when left alone or in limited company it allows them to become intraspective which puts them on edge. I see the same here. When in groups of eldar (or 'hunting the webways or whatever) they have that drive to teach and improve or simply flight, but when left to have a solitary conversation they find it hard to disengage from their warlike life.

I cant see them 'comming home' dumping their kit bag on the table and asking the mrs whats for dinner.

Well, this makes sense. Would you think they were likely to be unpredicatable though? Obviously they would be intense beyond our ability to comprehend, but are they likely to 'rage' so bad they could at times hurt or kill their own? That clearly isn't reflected in the rules, but I suspect someone like Karandras could maybe get a little carried away every now and then.

I imagine that the normal Eldar aspect warriors (and every other Eldar, for that matter) would fear them a little, but certainly be in utter awe of them as well.

Maidel
19-05-2009, 23:37
and 'rage' at a fair, maiden?

Are we talking about fulgrim again? :D


Well, this makes sense. Would you think they were likely to be unpredicatable though? Obviously they would be intense beyond our ability to comprehend, but are they likely to 'rage' so bad they could at times hurt or kill their own?

I really think it depends on when you catch them. Going back to my 'solider' annlogy, quite a few veterans did do serious injury to their own families because they became so detatched from reality.

Phoenix lords are, an eldar, lost on a path, who then got lost on a path 100 more times. Thats more focused than a weapons grade laser. Im betting the lose it from time to time.


That clearly isn't reflected in the rules, but I suspect someone like Karandras could maybe get a little carried away every now and then.

Actually, I dont think it could ever happen on the table top. For me, war is the one place where they are actually 'at home' its the meaning to their entire existance, its probably when they are most calm, collected and 'sane'


I imagine that the normal Eldar aspect warriors (and every other Eldar, for that matter) would fear them a little, but certainly be in utter awe of them as well.

Damn right. Its a bit like guardsmen and marines - you love em because they are going to save your butt, but you are damn scared of the guy who is 2' taller than you and is carrying a gun the size of your torso.

Hellebore
20-05-2009, 01:11
Can you find a quote that says you must have founded an aspect to become a phoenix lord?

The Karandras example is an important one, because it negates the argument that to be a phoenix lord you must have founded a shrine. He did not. This is what happens when dealing with absolute arguments. All you need is a single example that contradicts a statement with 'always' in it, and you've disproven it.

So by the existence of Karandras, the argument is wrong. You don't HAVE to be an aspect founder to be a phoenix Lord.

The quote Poseidal gave is just one of the many pieces of evidence that proves being a phoenix lord is not a mystical thing, but something to do with the age and experience of an exarch.

There is no actual difference between a phoenix lord and an exarch except in name. A chapter master is a space marine, because chapter master is a rank, a conceptual title.

Exarchs are not eldar anymore, it's more than a title, it's a physical and psychic state of being wholy different to a normal living eldar. A phoenix lord is the same as an exarch, because in this case it IS a title. But it is a subtitle of an already fundamentally different group of people.

EDIT: The reason this chapter master said what he did is because I've argued this same argument half a dozen times in this forum already. I believe that Rockerfella was even in one of the older threads. The first quote I always point out is the one from the 2nd ed codex that Poseidal quoted. The next is the description of phoenix lord armour vs exarch armour (ie identical). Then the idea that Karandras, a follower of an aspect founder, is considered a phoenix lord despite not having an original idea to save his life (I jest). All this evidence clearly points out that phoenix lords are old and powerful exarchs. The Asurya are a special group of phoenix lords that started the first 6 shrines (+ Karandras), but Asurya≠Phoenix Lord (the classic, all Asurya are phoenix Lords but not all phoenix lords are asurya).

It would not surprise me that there are a dozen scorpion phoenix lords, each epitomising a different component of their aspect. All the students of Karandras are 10,000 years old as well. They are going to be powerful exarchs.


Hellebore

NightrawenII
20-05-2009, 13:02
As I said above I think the Phoenix Lord is translation of Asurya.

BUT

I think the Phoenix Lord is title given to the FIRST exarch of the Aspect, ie its founder. In case of Karandras its complicated, but its explained in the Codex. There is said the Karandras change the Aspect to his current form. So we can say the Ahra is its founder but original teacher is the Karandras, so he is the Phoenix Lord as well.

A phoenix lord is not a phoenix lord because he lost his shrine
This can be interpreted as:
a) All Phoenix Lords started off in the Shrine of Asur, the First Shrine of Aspect Warrior, which is now destroyed.
b) He is lost for his Shrine. When the Ech became the PL the Fire of the Bloody-handed God burns in him too bright, so he cant stay in the shrine(and Craftworld) and must answer the Calling of the War.

Maidel
20-05-2009, 20:27
Can you find a quote that says you must have founded an aspect to become a phoenix lord?

No, I cant, but 5 of the 6 did - which is a pretty important thing to note, and the one that didnt, well hes different for a reason.


The quote Poseidal gave is just one of the many pieces of evidence that proves being a phoenix lord is not a mystical thing, but something to do with the age and experience of an exarch.

It would not surprise me that there are a dozen scorpion phoenix lords, each epitomising a different component of their aspect. All the students of Karandras are 10,000 years old as well. They are going to be powerful exarchs.

I showed a few 'guestimates' on that - which basically show that there could be HUNDREDS of phoenix lords running around.

Does this make any sense. No.

1) There are no scalable exarchs in 40, never have, never was. There is no mention of scales of power within exarches the only distinction made is phoenix lords and they are so far divorced from normal exarches its unfunny.

2) GW has always given players the ability to 'make more'. They left 2 first founding chapters unnamed because it allowed players to make their own. They said there are 1000 marine chapters and then named something like 200. They named a few marine captains of each chapter as special characters and then gave you a marine captain template to make your own. They even let you make your own daemon princes (which phoenix lords effectively are)

They've always done this - there has never been the ability to 'make your own phoenix lord' in the rules. Why not? Its not difficult - they could give you the template stats, and then give you the exarch weapons and powers (like they already do for autarchs) and let you make your own phoenix lord. But they never have.

Only reason I can think of is that they dont see there being more phoenix lords (or if there are, there are 1 or 2 and they are potentially waiting to name them)


The reason this chapter master said what he did is because I've argued this same argument half a dozen times in this forum already. I believe that Rockerfella was even in one of the older threads.

Yea, and ive been in two of them as well.:p


The Asurya are a special group of phoenix lords that started the first 6 shrines (+ Karandras), but Asurya≠Phoenix Lord (the classic, all Asurya are phoenix Lords but not all phoenix lords are asurya).

I know this answer will give the 'absense of evidence is not evidence of absence response...

BUT - If I cant say that the phoenix lords all founded shrines ACCEPT karandaras who disproves this theory. I dont see why you can then say that despite no mention of any other phoenix lords, there are, infact lots of them.

And you cant use this quote:

Among the most powerful of Phoenix Lords are those that founded the Warrior Aspects..."

because, as you have already pointed out karandras didnt found a shrine, so if you take the 5 that did, you have one that didnt and thus, that sentance is valid.


Asurya≠Phoenix Lord

Proof please. And you cant use karandras as you proof because there is no where that says he DIDNT train under asurmen, he just wasnt the first scorpion.


Im sorry if I come over as a little aggressive about this, its not aggression, its being very emphatic about it. :D

I normally very much respect your analysis of the fluff, but in this case, I feel its flawed analysis.

Hellebore
21-05-2009, 01:11
The proof is in the physicality of a phoenix lord if nothing else. They are a soul gestalt in a suit of wraithbone armour, just as an exarch is.

I find it hard to believe you would willingly accept that a 1 day old exarch is as skilled as a 1000 year old exarch. That the game stats don't support that is irrelevant (Dante is 1100 years chapter master but has the same stats as a 50 year old chapter master).

The more exarchs that use the suit, the more souls within it. 40k has a long history of stating that the more souls added to a gestalt the more powerful it becomes. All chaos gods are gestalts of souls tainted with specific emotions. Ynnead is slowly becoming more powerful as more souls are added to him.

An eldar that becomes an exarch doesn't HAVE to wear exarch armour, especially if he is an exarch of a new shrine or every suit is being used. I doubt the eldar psyche that fixates on war is going to 'wait it's turn' so that there are always the same number of exarch suits as exarchs. Becoming trapped on a path is an involuntary thing and has nothing to do with the people around you. The original wearers of the exarch suits MUST have been the sole occupant.

Which means there would be a fundamental difference between an exarch in a suit of armour and an exarch in a suit of armour with dozens of other exarch souls aiding, guiding, teaching and powering him. And thus, a difference in 'power level' between different exarchs.

If Karandras was the example of the less powerful phoenix lords in that quote, then your argument about scaling power levels doesn't work either does it?

The make your own phoenix lord can easily be applied to the current phoenix lords. GW is encouraging people these days to use counts as for Marneus Calgar as their own chapter master, counts as Cronus as their own tank commander etc. The same logic sees Tharianol the ever blade being used as counts as Asurman.


EDIT: The point about Karandras though is the sticking point. He clearly became a phoenix lord without founding an aspect. He was an exarch of the striking scorpions as was Arha (Arha being the first). Thus, there is absolutely no reason that any exarch can't become a phoenix lord as well. There are currently 2 striking scorpion phoenix lords so it's not even a case of the master dying and the apprentice taking over. Thus there is no barrier to exarchs being a phoenix lord.

You don't need any more evidence. There are two phoenix lords of the Striking Scorpions at the moment. Check the text on Karandras, it says Karandras is not the oldest exarch of the striking scorpions, that honour belongs to Arha, the most sinister of the Phoenix Lords. So this says several things, one that Phoenix Lords are Exarchs, two that Arha is still described as a Phoenix Lord, and three that you don't have to be the OLDEST exarch of an aspect to become a Phoenix Lord. Ahra He is still a phoenix lord (in the sense that he is a walking battle shell of spirit energy).

If you read the section on Phoenix Lords on page 54, it says that Phoenix lords are like Exarchs because they are also immortal through the soul energy and gestalt in their armour. The DIFFERENCE it says in the next paragraph is that exarchs are bound to one place, whilst Phoenix Lords are allowed to roam across the galaxy.

This is entirely because their shrines have long since been destroyed. There should be no difference skillwise between an exarch in a shrine 10,000 years old, and a phoenix lord roaming the galaxy 10,000 years old. They progressed in exactly the same manner, just one was bound to a shrine whilst the other was not. If for instance, Karandras' shrine had not been destroyed and Ahra had not turned to chaos but his shrine HAD been destroyed, we would have one roaming 'phoenix lord' and one sedentary 'phoenix lord'.

The most constraints you can put on who can become a phoenix lord is if they are an Exarch of their Aspect (because they don't have to be the Oldest and they don't have to be creator of their aspect).

As for proof that Asurya does not equal phoenix lord, the text says the Asurya are the first exarchs and founded the aspects. Karandras was second exarch and didn't found an aspect. Thus by the definition given on page 54 he cannot be an Asurya, but is still a Phoenix Lord. Ahra however IS an Asurya by that definition.

Hellebore

NightrawenII
21-05-2009, 09:14
If you read the section on Phoenix Lords on page 54, it says that Phoenix lords are like Exarchs because they are also immortal through the soul energy and gestalt in their armour. The DIFFERENCE it says in the next paragraph is that exarchs are bound to one place, whilst Phoenix Lords are allowed to roam across the galaxy.

This is entirely because their shrines have long since been destroyed. There should be no difference skillwise between an exarch in a shrine 10,000 years old, and a phoenix lord roaming the galaxy 10,000 years old. They progressed in exactly the same manner, just one was bound to a shrine whilst the other was not. If for instance, Karandras' shrine had not been destroyed and Ahra had not turned to chaos but his shrine HAD been destroyed, we would have one roaming 'phoenix lord' and one sedentary 'phoenix lord'.

And then we have problem. By this definition Maugan Ra lost his status as the Phoenix Lord, because his Shrine is on the Altansar.
And destroyed shrine status cant be aplied on Asurmen(he left the Shrine before it was destroyed) or Jain Zar(she have no particular interest in one specific Craftworld)


As for proof that Asurya does not equal phoenix lord, the text says the Asurya are the first exarchs and founded the aspects. Karandras was second exarch and didn't found an aspect. Thus by the definition given on page 54 he cannot be an Asurya, but is still a Phoenix Lord. Ahra however IS an Asurya by that definition.

Hellebore

Not exactly, I will play the Devils advocate but Karadras page says .....Karandras took his place, tempering murderous nature of his predecessor with the patience ot the hunter.. Which can mean he took the place of the First Exarch and Founder of the shrine of the Aspect Warriors as the Eldar know them today.(page 54)

On the other side. Hellebore how can you explain the name of Asuryata, the Legend of the Phoenix Lords??

Hellebore
21-05-2009, 15:28
And then we have problem. By this definition Maugan Ra lost his status as the Phoenix Lord, because his Shrine is on the Altansar.
And destroyed shrine status cant be aplied on Asurmen(he left the Shrine before it was destroyed) or Jain Zar(she have no particular interest in one specific Craftworld)


It's what is stated in the description of phoenix lords in thr 4th and 2nd ed codicies. They make special note of it because exarchs are bound to single shrines. It's up to you to decide how you reconcile it, but it is stated quite clearly.


Although I can't find anything that says Asurmen left the shrine of asur before it was destroyed, although I don't see how that's relevant. It says their shrines are now long gone. I suppose it depends on how literally you take the expression 'bound to one place'. Obviously exarchs can and do leave their shrines to go to war. If say, Asurmen had left his shrine to go to battle and it was destroyed, he wouldn't have abandoned it.



Not exactly, I will play the Devils advocate but Karadras page says .....Karandras took his place, tempering murderous nature of his predecessor with the patience ot the hunter.. Which can mean he took the place of the First Exarch and Founder of the shrine of the Aspect Warriors as the Eldar know them today.(page 54)


Yes, but it also says before that "karandras is not the oldest exarch of the striking scorpions, that honour belongs to Ahra, Father of Scorpions".

For Ahra to be the oldest exarch of the striking scorpions it means they had to have already existed as a distinct entity. Karandras was also included in that. They are both of the striking scorpion school. If Karandras had actually started a new aspect it would be unlikely to have the same name as the one he was originally trained in.

The difference is only described as being full frontal assault vs striking from the shadows. Scorpion units can now, if they choose, never once attempt to skulk around.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are exarchs that founded shrines on the teachings of Ahra still out there, that emphasise their murderous nature of the patience of the hunter.

Even within aspects there are nuances, otherwise they wouldn't have any options other than their core concept and exarchs would always carry the same equipment and use identical exarch powers. That an exarch favours one weapon over another clearly says they will favour one FORM within an aspect over another, or perhaps cycle through different ones. Each of the exarch weapons of the scorpion temple is used for different purposes. Melee aspects have ranged weapons and ranged aspects fight in melee. There is more than one 'aspect' to an aspect despite it's name.

So according to the text, whatever 'tempering' Karandras did, it was a very minor psychological focus. He didn't change scorpion core dogma, otherwise they wouldn't be scorpions any more. As ahra is still referred to as the father of scorpions and oldest exarch of the striking scorpions, it means that whatever Karandras did, it didn't stop them (including himself) being striking scorpions.





On the other side. Hellebore how can you explain the name of Asuryata, the Legend of the Phoenix Lords??

Well apart from it being a made up language we don't actually have any rules for, it refers to Asur. The eldar in general refer to themselves as the children of Asur, as well as the children of Isha and a multitude of other titles. The title Asurya, isn't defined in meaning either. It obviously involves Asuryan somehow, which is funny considering the Aspects are Aspects of KHAINE and have nothing to do with Asuryan.


So I will ask a question of everyone else, considering I've been doing nothing but answering questions myself. What is the difference between a phoenix lord and an exarch?

The text in karandras' description is NOT ambiguous, Ahra is the first Striking scorpion exarch, precluding Karandras from the first. That he is the father of scorpions and the oldest exarch of the striking scorpions means that Karandras in no way created an aspect, any more than each Exarch teaching his students slightly differently in a modern craftworld is creating a new aspect. They aren't going to have identical teachings even if they learnt from the same book.

The phoenix lord description says that Exarchs spread throughout the galaxy with their own teachings. Exarchs are not bound to repeat verbatim rote the same thing over and over again. The fact that they may have the knowledge of a dozen other eldar souls, all of which had different life experiences would make this impossible.

The fact also that completely new aspects can be founded far past the time of the Shrine of Asur means that there are eldar on the path of the warrior that teach differently. If they can only learn the same aspect teachings, you would never get slicing orbs of zandros, or the warp spiders and shining spears (none of which where part of the original Asurya).

There is nothing that says a phoenix lord must always be the founder of a shrine. And that's the point. They are exarchs (it says as much). Why then can an exarch of the howling banshees somehow mysteriously not become as good as jain zar? She is also an exarch. Two exarchs given enough time should end up equal. So explain how they cannot be, when they are the same.

EDIT: Think on it like this. Thre are two striking scorpion phoenix lords, it says so. Karandras was more stealth, Ahra more brutal. But, and this is what it says, they are still striking scorpions. Thus, the aspect of the striking scorpion can cotain both brutality and stealth without it being two seperate aspects, otherwise the text would SAY they are distinct aspects rather than referring to them with the exact same name.

So, what about Jain Zar junior? Ahra gets a side kick that becomes a phoenix lord of his aspect, why can't there be a Karandras of the Howling Banshees? The answer is there is no reason there can't be, because Karandras did it. Perhaps Jain Zar Jr taught the spinning heel kick as opposed to the backward dragon punch just as Karandras taught stealth and Ahra taught brutality. The existence of Karandras makes it impossible for anyone to argue that exarchs within other aspects cannot and have not done the same thing.

If all you need to do is provide a differing opinion on the technique of an aspect in order to become a phoenix lord as Karandras has done, then there is nothing stopping exarchs all over the place doing it. Except of course their age. Which is what I've been saying. Phoenix Lords are what they are because of the increasing power of their soul gestalt and the sheer experience they have accumulated. If each soul lived 1000 years and then stayed in the armour for the rest of the time the that's 10,000 years to present 41st millennium plus all the accumlated knowledge gleaned from being dead within the suit, which sould add up to 100,000 years of experience, at maximum, but more than 10,000 at minimum.

There is no worry that the phoenix lords will lack uniqueness if there are more of them, even then there aren't going to be many. Not that many exarchs have lived for 10,000 years. It is a sliding scale from eldar, to aspect warrior to exarch to phoenix lord.

Hellebore

Condottiere
21-05-2009, 17:12
Assuming there are more Phoenix Lords then mentioned in the Fluff, their creation must involve more than just the accumulation of souls, energy and experience, otherwise the webways would just be swarming with them, and entire Marine chapters will be looking very outclassed every time they meet an Eldar force.

Poseidal
21-05-2009, 18:09
Assuming there are more Phoenix Lords then mentioned in the Fluff, their creation must involve more than just the accumulation of souls, energy and experience, otherwise the webways would just be swarming with them, and entire Marine chapters will be looking very outclassed every time they meet an Eldar force.

The start point is important.

Before becoming Exarchs, Asurmen, Jain Zar and the others were probably still very powerful individuals.

It states that these original personalities dominate all the others in terms of goals and outlook; that could be 10s, 100s possibly 1000s of other personalities that are in line with these originals.

NightrawenII
21-05-2009, 18:45
It's what is stated in the description of phoenix lords in thr 4th and 2nd ed codicies. They make special note of it because exarchs are bound to single shrines. It's up to you to decide how you reconcile it, but it is stated quite clearly.

Although I can't find anything that says Asurmen left the shrine of asur before it was destroyed, although I don't see how that's relevant. It says their shrines are now long gone. I suppose it depends on how literally you take the expression 'bound to one place'. Obviously exarchs can and do leave their shrines to go to war. If say, Asurmen had left his shrine to go to battle and it was destroyed, he wouldn't have abandoned it.

Well, in his page its said, after founding the Shrines he began the eternal war against enemies of Eldar.


Yes, but it also says before that "karandras is not the oldest exarch of the striking scorpions, that honour belongs to Ahra, Father of Scorpions".

For Ahra to be the oldest exarch of the striking scorpions it means they had to have already existed as a distinct entity. Karandras was also included in that. They are both of the striking scorpion school. If Karandras had actually started a new aspect it would be unlikely to have the same name as the one he was originally trained in.

The difference is only described as being full frontal assault vs striking from the shadows. Scorpion units can now, if they choose, never once attempt to skulk around.

It wouldn't surprise me if there are exarchs that founded shrines on the teachings of Ahra still out there, that emphasise their murderous nature of the patience of the hunter.

Even within aspects there are nuances, otherwise they wouldn't have any options other than their core concept and exarchs would always carry the same equipment and use identical exarch powers. That an exarch favours one weapon over another clearly says they will favour one FORM within an aspect over another, or perhaps cycle through different ones. Each of the exarch weapons of the scorpion temple is used for different purposes. Melee aspects have ranged weapons and ranged aspects fight in melee. There is more than one 'aspect' to an aspect despite it's name.

So according to the text, whatever 'tempering' Karandras did, it was a very minor psychological focus. He didn't change scorpion core dogma, otherwise they wouldn't be scorpions any more. As ahra is still referred to as the father of scorpions and oldest exarch of the striking scorpions, it means that whatever Karandras did, it didn't stop them (including himself) being striking scorpions.

You take it in wrong way. My point was, when Ahra get crazy, destroyed Shrine of Asur and killed Fuegan and then fled Farseers know where, the Karandras took his place as the most bada$$ of the scorpions and change the Aspect to his will, thus became Phoenix Lord. The reason why we dont have Jain Zar Jr is because Jain Zar old is still around and the *lesser* PL arent significant, ie. they cant change the aspect while the original founder still kicks around.

In my way of thinking the Phoenix Lord is title given to the bada$$ master of the Aspect, which include either the founder and the oldest of the Exarchs (they can be very different from the original founder or the *normal* exarchs).


Well apart from it being a made up language we don't actually have any rules for, it refers to Asur. The eldar in general refer to themselves as the children of Asur, as well as the children of Isha and a multitude of other titles. The title Asurya, isn't defined in meaning either. It obviously involves Asuryan somehow, which is funny considering the Aspects are Aspects of KHAINE and have nothing to do with Asuryan.

Well, the name of Asurmen, the first one of the Phoenix Lords means *The Right Hand of the Asuryan* in full *The Right Hand of the Phoenix King*. So I think the Asur means in human language a phoenix. Eldar refering to themself as the Asur make sence, after all they have survive destruction of their race.


So I will ask a question of everyone else, considering I've been doing nothing but answering questions myself. What is the difference between a phoenix lord and an exarch?

The text in karandras' description is NOT ambiguous, Ahra is the first Striking scorpion exarch, precluding Karandras from the first. That he is the father of scorpions and the oldest exarch of the striking scorpions means that Karandras in no way created an aspect, any more than each Exarch teaching his students slightly differently in a modern craftworld is creating a new aspect. They aren't going to have identical teachings even if they learnt from the same book.

The phoenix lord description says that Exarchs spread throughout the galaxy with their own teachings. Exarchs are not bound to repeat verbatim rote the same thing over and over again. The fact that they may have the knowledge of a dozen other eldar souls, all of which had different life experiences would make this impossible.

The fact also that completely new aspects can be founded far past the time of the Shrine of Asur means that there are eldar on the path of the warrior that teach differently. If they can only learn the same aspect teachings, you would never get slicing orbs of zandros, or the warp spiders and shining spears (none of which where part of the original Asurya).

There is nothing that says a phoenix lord must always be the founder of a shrine. And that's the point. They are exarchs (it says as much). Why then can an exarch of the howling banshees somehow mysteriously not become as good as jain zar? She is also an exarch. Two exarchs given enough time should end up equal. So explain how they cannot be, when they are the same.

EDIT: Think on it like this. Thre are two striking scorpion phoenix lords, it says so. Karandras was more stealth, Ahra more brutal. But, and this is what it says, they are still striking scorpions. Thus, the aspect of the striking scorpion can cotain both brutality and stealth without it being two seperate aspects, otherwise the text would SAY they are distinct aspects rather than referring to them with the exact same name.

So, what about Jain Zar junior? Ahra gets a side kick that becomes a phoenix lord of his aspect, why can't there be a Karandras of the Howling Banshees? The answer is there is no reason there can't be, because Karandras did it. Perhaps Jain Zar Jr taught the spinning heel kick as opposed to the backward dragon punch just as Karandras taught stealth and Ahra taught brutality. The existence of Karandras makes it impossible for anyone to argue that exarchs within other aspects cannot and have not done the same thing.

If all you need to do is provide a differing opinion on the technique of an aspect in order to become a phoenix lord as Karandras has done, then there is nothing stopping exarchs all over the place doing it. Except of course their age. Which is what I've been saying. Phoenix Lords are what they are because of the increasing power of their soul gestalt and the sheer experience they have accumulated. If each soul lived 1000 years and then stayed in the armour for the rest of the time the that's 10,000 years to present 41st millennium plus all the accumlated knowledge gleaned from being dead within the suit, which sould add up to 100,000 years of experience, at maximum, but more than 10,000 at minimum.

There is no worry that the phoenix lords will lack uniqueness if there are more of them, even then there aren't going to be many. Not that many exarchs have lived for 10,000 years. It is a sliding scale from eldar, to aspect warrior to exarch to phoenix lord.

Hellebore

See above.
About the Jain Zar Jr. I think the second PL of the Fire Dragons is more probable, after all Fuegan was thought to be dead until Haranshemash. So there is possibilty for some Exarch took his place.:cool:

Condottiere
21-05-2009, 19:22
The problem with succession in the case of Phoenix Lords is, just because the original Grand Master decides to come out of retirement, the successor won't lose that power he has accumulated, and you have two entities that would be considered the Phoenix Lords of that aspect.

Idaan
21-05-2009, 20:23
You take it in wrong way. My point was, when Ahra get crazy, destroyed Shrine of Asur and killed Fuegan and then fled Farseers know where, the Karandras took his place as the most bada$$ of the scorpions and change the Aspect to his will, thus became Phoenix Lord. The reason why we dont have Jain Zar Jr is because Jain Zar old is still around and the *lesser* PL arent significant, ie. they cant change the aspect while the original founder still kicks around.Well, we know that there are several fighting styles within each Aspect. Jain Zar uses an Executioner and Triskele, so she probably created those. But there is still place for the Exarch who created the Mirrorswords fighting style along with any others that aren't represented in rules. If you think a Phoenix Lord is a creator or innovator of an Aspect that is. I subscribe to the theory that they're powerful Exarchs not bound to one Shrine.


Well, the name of Asurmen, the first one of the Phoenix Lords means *The Right Hand of the Asuryan* in full *The Right Hand of the Phoenix King*. So I think the Asur means in human language a phoenix. Eldar refering to themself as the Asur make sence, after all they have survive destruction of their race.We don't know whether Asuryan means Phoenix King or it's a name separate from his title though. The only case the title and the name of a god are the same is explicitly noted: Cegorach means literally "Laughing God".
So Asurmen could mean The Hand of Asuryan with "Asur" being possesive form of Asuryan in Eldar language.

Well apart from it being a made up language we don't actually have any rules for, it refers to Asur. The eldar in general refer to themselves as the children of Asur, as well as the children of Isha and a multitude of other titles. The title Asurya, isn't defined in meaning either. It obviously involves Asuryan somehow, which is funny considering the Aspects are Aspects of KHAINE and have nothing to do with Asuryan.Well the Dire Avengers follow Khaine in his Aspect of the Defender, that is the noble knight of the realm and vassal of the King, that is Asuryan. So they serve Khaine who in turn serves Asuryan.
At least that's how I see it.

Maidel
21-05-2009, 21:18
There is no worry that the phoenix lords will lack uniqueness if there are more of them, even then there aren't going to be many. Not that many exarchs have lived for 10,000 years. It is a sliding scale from eldar, to aspect warrior to exarch to phoenix lord.

Hellebore

You see - thats just wrong. IT specfically states that phoenix lords are in effect, immortal. Therefore, if exarches are just a lesser version of phoenix lords then they are, by the same method, also immortal. Who ever dons the suit carries it on.


And there we have (As someone else pointed out) the very very important distinction between phoenix lords and normal exarches.

You put on a suit of exarch armour and you become one soul within the suit - a conglomeration of experiance and power. IF you put on the phoenix lord armour you BECOME that phoenix lord - the personality of the original takes you over completely.

Thus - there is a distinct and important difference between exarches and phoenix lords - and its not one that could 'develop' either. Each time a suit of exarch armour is worn it will diminish the original owner. The same cannot be said for the phoenix lords.

NightrawenII
21-05-2009, 22:00
Well, we know that there are several fighting styles within each Aspect. Jain Zar uses an Executioner and Triskele, so she probably created those. But there is still place for the Exarch who created the Mirrorswords fighting style along with any others that aren't represented in rules. If you think a Phoenix Lord is a creator or innovator of an Aspect that is. I subscribe to the theory that they're powerful Exarchs not bound to one Shrine.

No.
For me, the Phoenix Lord is GrandMaster of the Aspect, which I was trying to explain on the Ahra and Jain Zar example. Ahra get crazy and vanished and thus the Karandras took his place, ie. became a Phoenix Lord. In the case of Jain Zar she remains, so there wasnt need to re-full her place as a Phoenix Lord and thus no Karandras of the Banshee Aspect.
And by the way, Maugan Ra dont fit the Phoenix Lord description in your theory because he is bound to one Shrine.(Altansar was recovered;)).

As Maidel point out, the consciouness of the warrior is another factor in the determinion who is PL. So we can say all Founders are the Phoenix Lords (Ahra included) and also the most ancient of Exarchs, whose personality takes command of the suit and wearer.


We don't know whether Asuryan means Phoenix King or it's a name separate from his title though. The only case the title and the name of a god are the same is explicitly noted: Cegorach means literally "Laughing God".
So Asurmen could mean The Hand of Asuryan with "Asur" being possesive form of Asuryan in Eldar language.

Point taken.


Thus - there is a distinct and important difference between exarches and phoenix lords - and its not one that could 'develop' either. Each time a suit of exarch armour is worn it will diminish the original owner. The same cannot be said for the phoenix lords.

Not exactly. The Exarch suit is powered by spirit-pool of departed exarchs but nowhere is said that this pool cant have a leading personality.

Maidel
21-05-2009, 22:34
Not exactly. The Exarch suit is powered by spirit-pool of departed exarchs but nowhere is said that this pool cant have a leading personality.

Fair enough. However, its such an important fact that they mention it in the phoenix lord entries as if its something that isnt ordinary - otherwise, why mention it? If every exarch is like that, it wouldnt be something to bother mentioning.

Actually - ive even got a quote to prove it:



When and eldar enters the suit [of exarch armour] it is this spirit [original exarch] which merges with his own, adding its own accumulated memories and experiances to his.

Which is similar - but in distinct contradiction to the phoenix lord entry:


Another eldar dons his armour to take his place and thus his identity. In this way, should a phoenix lord be vanquished, they are ultimately reborn into a fresh cycle of existence. No matter how many individuals a phoenix lord may have been, their mind is forever te same, driven by the dorminant personality of the first and greatest to wear the suit.

Similar idea - BUT the phoenix lords are distinct and different to normal exarches.

NightrawenII
22-05-2009, 09:04
Fair enough. However, its such an important fact that they mention it in the phoenix lord entries as if its something that isnt ordinary - otherwise, why mention it? If every exarch is like that, it wouldnt be something to bother mentioning.
Actually - ive even got a quote to prove it:
Which is similar - but in distinct contradiction to the phoenix lord entry:
Similar idea - BUT the phoenix lords are distinct and different to normal exarches.

My explanation:
The both suit are powered by spirit-pool with one dominant personality and this personality share the experiences or memories with others personalities (do you hear voices too?!?!).

So in the Exarch case the Exarch add his exp&mem to the spirit-pool but remain dominant. Ie. their merge on Psychical plain (i dont know better word) but not on Spiritual plain. So he can hear the voices of departed exarchs in his mind. (This is a little scary).

In PL case the Exarch add his exp&mem to spirit-pool but the other spirit take control over. But still somewhere in the suit this Exarch exists.

Its probably like choir with one dominant singer.

Hellebore
22-05-2009, 10:34
You see - thats just wrong. IT specfically states that phoenix lords are in effect, immortal. Therefore, if exarches are just a lesser version of phoenix lords then they are, by the same method, also immortal. Who ever dons the suit carries it on.


Well, you may not like it, but it's what it says: "Like the Exarchs of the Warrior Aspects, Phoenix Lords are immortal after a fashion."pg54
Considering it says several times that the phoenix lords were the first exarchs (in the paragraph previous to the above and in several of their unit entries like Karandras'), the line between phoenix lord and exarch is not a clear one at all. Anything a phoenix lord can do and exarch can do, from being 'immortal after a fashion' to founding new shrines (which it also says happens) including completely new aspects like the Slicing Orbs of Zandros, the Warp Spiders and the Shining Spears. Actually, a phoenix lord is locked into one method of fighting, the original idea they had within their shrine. Thus Asurmen can never use a shimmer shield and power weapon, nor can Jain Zar use mirror swords.

This isn't particularly clever or special anyway, every eldar soul trapped in a spirit stone upon death is alive today. Some are 10,000 years old, floating around in the infinity circuits of their craftworlds. All eldar souls are immortal (or as close as you can't tell). They are the only mentioned species in 40k whose soul surives death intact. Human souls disintegrate and disappear into the warp, but an eldar soul endures which is why being cast into the warp with Slannesh around is very undesirable.

The difference is that an exarch and phoenix lord have a mini infinity circuit within their armour rather than attached to a craftworld. We do know that there are different power 'levels' of eldar soul, not all of them are 'strong enough' to control a wraithlord for example. I would imagine however that exarchs as they are, trapped on a single path, have very focused and strong souls. You couldn't maintain that state of being without it.

The recovery of Altansar doesn't remove Maugan Ra's power and ability, because that has been earned over millennia. Phoenix Lord is a title, not a state of being.

You also missed the part in the Exarch description where it says the Exarch takes the name associated with the suit and is reborn as an acient warrior hero. In 2nd ed it went even further and specifically said the name associated with the suit was that of the original wearer iirc.

pg26 2nd ed codex: His personality is lost into the greater heroic being that bears the exarch's name [...] his own life becomes just another stage in the life of the spirit stone, and the heroic warrior is reborn in new flesh.

So an eldar puts on a phoenix lord's suit and his spirit mingles with the others, becoming that warrior reborn after donning the suit and assuming the identity of the suit. The original wearer's mind is the dominant personality because Asurmen is no good as a gardener, someone putting on the suit must conform to the ideals of warrior.

The same is true of an exarch, the original wearer of the suit's name is taken and their ideals followed as their souls are merged together.

And, assuming that the phoenix lord soul being dominant is the only difference between an exarch and a phoenix lord, then all it takes is another exarch who's soul is strong to dominate the wearer's after him, just as Karandras, as a non founding Exarch of the striking scorpions did.

That doesn't preclude more phoenix lords, or exarchs of phoenix lord power, it just requires a strong and dominant soul within an exarch suit.

Hellebore

Maidel
23-05-2009, 10:40
Well, you may not like it, but it's what it says: "Like the Exarchs of the Warrior Aspects, Phoenix Lords are immortal after a fashion."pg54

Huh? That makes no sense - because thats exactly what I was saying BECAUSE you said after 10,000 years there wouldnt be many exarches left. My point was, if they are almost immortal they will ALL be left. No sure where you were trying to go with that...



You also missed the part in the Exarch description where it says the Exarch takes the name associated with the suit and is reborn as an acient warrior hero. In 2nd ed it went even further and specifically said the name associated with the suit was that of the original wearer iirc.

I didnt miss it - I just dont enjoy typing out huge paragraphs of text. :D but well remembered.


And, assuming that the phoenix lord soul being dominant is the only difference between an exarch and a phoenix lord, then all it takes is another exarch who's soul is strong to dominate the wearer's after him, just as Karandras, as a non founding Exarch of the striking scorpions did.

Ah - now we are on to something. This DOES make the phoenix lords distinct from exarches, from the very start. IF an exarch is 'just that damn good' that when they die and someone else dons the suit they are just 'reborn' as apposed to merged then they are the makings of a new phoenix lord. (Actually - thats pretty self explainatory from their name isnt it...)

I havent disaggreed with 90% of what you posted above, so I didnt bother responding to it. The point I wanted to make all along is that phoenix lords and exarches are different and that not just any old exarch can become one. I think ive made that point now. Sure my reasons at the begining werent entirely on the mark, but I think this is the clincher.

Ive never said there arent more phoenix lords, just that exarches 'en-mass' cant become them.

Basically there has to be something 'special' about the eldar that when they die their personality so so dominant and important that any eldar donning the suit doesnt just 'ceramonally' take their name they actually BECOME them, reborn into a different body.

Do we agree on this part?

Idaan
24-05-2009, 10:03
Index Xenos: Eldar - The Warrior Aspect provides a quote to end this discussion once nad for all. I think it definately allows for other Phoenix Lords than the 6 we know to exist.

THE PHOENIX LORDS
A few of the most ancient Exarchs have no shrines and no craftworld to call their home. They wander from world to world, instinctively driven by war, attracted by places of great danger and need. These Exarchs are known as the Phoenix Lords and they are great heroes amongst the Eldar race. During moments of desperation they appear, sometimes just one but often several depending upon the perils faced. Following in the path of the Bloody-handed God, their names are well known throughout the craftworlds, and their deeds form part of the legends of the Eldar.
No one knows exactly how many Phoenix Lords there are, for some are seen but rarely, while others disappear for millennia only to reappear suddenly and unexpectedly. Some have undoubtedly perished far away, their suits lying upon some hostile world awaiting discovery by some predestined Eldar warrior doomed to don the armour and become the ancient hero for another cycle of his existence.
Some of the Phoenix Lords are as old as the Fall. They were heroes during the cataclysm, and were the first to bear the spirit stones of the Warrior Aspects. Perhaps they never reached the craftworlds and so never founded their own shrine as others did, or maybe their shrines have since been destroyed along with their craftworlds. Whatever their past, they are the most fearsome of all Exarchs, and the most powerful warriors of all the Eldar.
Thoughts?

Condottiere
24-05-2009, 10:34
There are a lot of Phoenix Lords hanging around; their DIY nature will be a lot easier to deal with than trying to figure out about the missing two Legions.

Hellebore
25-05-2009, 01:22
Thoughts are the evidence for more phoenix lords is higher than the evidence for only the ones in the book. The most anyone can say as evidence for only those in the book is not everything says there are MORE.

There is nothing that explicitly says only those ones exist, and far more statements of multiple lords.

Hellebore

NightrawenII
25-05-2009, 12:58
...their names are well known throughout the craftworlds, and their deeds form part of the legends of the Eldar....


...No one knows exactly how many Phoenix Lords there are...

I found this a hilarious.:D

Condottiere
25-05-2009, 17:00
The Harlequins know and they'll tell you, assuming you can get a mime to talk.

Idaan
25-05-2009, 19:11
I found this a hilarious.Well, Jain Zar might be practically worshipped on Iybraesil while almost unheard of on Kaelor, which has its own star: Lhykosidae. So all are famous legendary heroes, but not every single one is known on every single craftworld.

Maidel
25-05-2009, 20:04
Well, Jain Zar might be practically worshipped on Iybraesil while almost unheard of on Kaelor, which has its own star: Lhykosidae. So all are famous legendary heroes, but not every single one is known on every single craftworld.

Yea - makes perfect sense to me.

The Duke of Wellington is one of the best known military 'heros' in the UK - but if I went to france hes definately an 'anti-hero' and if I went to uzbekistan they wouldnt know who I was talking about.

borithan
25-05-2009, 20:39
This has been argued many times. Phoenix lords are very old exarchs.Hmm... myself, I don't like this idea... more fond of the idea that phoenix lords are the original aspect warriors, or at least, only members of the very oldest generations (or technically the suits of those individuals).



Their suits function in an identical fashion to an exarch's suit. It's just that an exarch goes to war alongside his craftworld and so his suit will be picked up if he dies. Exarch suits are presented to the next eldar attaining exarchhood in their shrine. Phoenix Lords have no shrine so no one to take their suit (and they are picky).There is another difference. All Exarch suits have the spirits of previous owners somehow bound into the suit. However, none are dominant, and the new exarch still retains some of his own identity. He becomes an individual who is partly his previous self, and partly the whole generated by the sprits of the suit. Phoenix lords, however, have one single dominant identity. The previous owners are all present, yes, but the original occupant's spirit was so strong that it remains the dominant personality, whoever puts it on essentially becoming them.



The difference between a phoenix lord and an exarch is a matter of age and the lack of a shrine.

In the 31st millennium a phoenix lord would have just been a powerful exarch. Now after 10,000 years they are daemon princes.Disagree here. A phoenix lord is not a matter of age. In fact, unless it really does only refer to the original aspect warriors (which it could. Just because they were among the first aspect warriors doesn't mean they had to go and found separate aspects), one could emerge at any time, from a recent eldar who's spirit is strong enough (though with the whole "legendary, everything was bigger in the past" thing, that will of course not happen).

Oh, and its not only Goto who has Dire Avengers with Shurkien Cannon. In the 2nd Gaunt's Ghosts book, the Dire Avenger Exarch has one. OK, he was given it by a Farseer, rather than it being part of his gear, but he still uses it.


The quote Poseidal gave is just one of the many pieces of evidence that proves being a phoenix lord is not a mystical thing, but something to do with the age and experience of an exarch.Doesn't prove it is not a mystical thing, just that they don't need to have founded an aspect. They are different from Exarchs (there being one dominant personality which retains its identity, overpowering the wearer totally, unlike the exarch, who forms a more equal relationship with the various previous exarchs).


it says Karandras is not the oldest exarch of the striking scorpions, that honour belongs to Arha, the most sinister of the Phoenix Lords. So this says several things, one that Phoenix Lords are Exarchs, two that Arha is still described as a Phoenix Lord, and three that you don't have to be the OLDEST exarch of an aspect to become a Phoenix Lord.Ah, but the very fact that is stated suggests, at least to me, that most Phoenix Lords are in fact the oldest exarchs of the various shrines. Nowhere else does is suggest that should be a rule, your right, but by stating it does suggest that it is generally an exception, ie that most phoenix lords are the oldest exarchs of an aspect (though that doesn't mean that you couldn't have relatively recently founded aspects. In fact, maybe the very fact that an exarch founds a new aspect indicates that they have the particularly strong spirit needed to become a phoenix lord). Yes, we know they don't have to be, but the fact that this is even mentioned suggests that most of them are founders.


Why then can an exarch of the howling banshees somehow mysteriously not become as good as jain zar? She is also an exarch. Two exarchs given enough time should end up equal. So explain how they cannot be, when they are the same.Because Jain Zar's spirit is so strong that she has remained the dominant personality throughout 10,000 years of various exarchs wearing the armour. It may be that strength of spirit that gives Phoenix Lord's their power, rather than experience represented by the many souls present in the armour.

To summarise my current thinking: Phoenix Lord is not just a title, but a state of being. They were exarchs, but Pheonix Lords are special. Both "normal" excarch's and Phoenix Lord's armour holds the spirit of all the previous owners. However, how these spirits interact is one of the major things that differentiates an Exarch and a Phoenix Lord. In an exarch, the older spirits are not dominant. When the exarch dons the armour his personality, spirit, is melded with the previous owners, but he is not taken over. He, in effect becomes a totally new personality, who is a combination of all previous owners, but the dominant part is made up of the exarch who is currently wearing it (say half of the personality is made up from him, the other from all the previous owners). A Phoenix Lord, on the other hand, has one dominant personality (it may be that it always has to be the first person who wears it, but I am less sure about that). The soul of that individual is so powerful that it overcomes whoever puts the armour on. The owner's spirit and soul do continue to exist (but I am not sure whether they are just repressed, or simply feed the strength of the dominant personality), but they do not have any control over the being that is created.

Now, for this powerful soul and spirit almost certainly mean that that personality did something significant. For most of them, this includes the founding of an aspect. Their very strength meant that, unlike most exarchs, they could break partially free of the constraints of their previous aspect, and create a new style of fighting sufficiently different to warrant a new aspect. However, not all have done this, but still did something significant in their natural life span. The Striking Scorpion one, for example, took over that aspect as their "leader" when the original founder went bad. Others may have founded different fighting styles within their aspects, or simply carried out legendary deeds, deeds only possible by someone with the strength that would also allow them to permanently imprint their personality on the armour.

Idaan
25-05-2009, 21:30
Or just the consequent wearers of the suit choose to submit to the original wearer's personality out of respect rather than oppose it.
Same as with some spirits in the Infinity Circuit retaining their consciousness and some providing potential for Craftworld's collective consciousness. It's presumably a matter of choice, preference or whatever.

borithan
25-05-2009, 21:43
Hmm... No, I think there is no voluntary aspect to it all. Its part of the dark side of these figures. They, in a way, consume others to continue themselves. The others do live on, in the suit, but, unlike with the Exarchs, they play no further role than being there.

Unless you mean Exarchs, rather than Phoenix Lords, and the role they take on when they take the suit of a previous exarch. If so, then yes, they probably do, at least to an extent, voluntarily take on the persona that the exarch suit represents.

Maidel
25-05-2009, 21:51
To summarise my current thinking: Phoenix Lord is not just a title, but a state of being. They were exarchs, but Pheonix Lords are special. Both "normal" excarch's and Phoenix Lord's armour holds the spirit of all the previous owners. However, how these spirits interact is one of the major things that differentiates an Exarch and a Phoenix Lord. In an exarch, the older spirits are not dominant. When the exarch dons the armour his personality, spirit, is melded with the previous owners, but he is not taken over. He, in effect becomes a totally new personality, who is a combination of all previous owners, but the dominant part is made up of the exarch who is currently wearing it (say half of the personality is made up from him, the other from all the previous owners). A Phoenix Lord, on the other hand, has one dominant personality (it may be that it always has to be the first person who wears it, but I am less sure about that). The soul of that individual is so powerful that it overcomes whoever puts the armour on. The owner's spirit and soul do continue to exist (but I am not sure whether they are just repressed, or simply feed the strength of the dominant personality), but they do not have any control over the being that is created.

Now, for this powerful soul and spirit almost certainly mean that that personality did something significant. For most of them, this includes the founding of an aspect. Their very strength meant that, unlike most exarchs, they could break partially free of the constraints of their previous aspect, and create a new style of fighting sufficiently different to warrant a new aspect. However, not all have done this, but still did something significant in their natural life span. The Striking Scorpion one, for example, took over that aspect as their "leader" when the original founder went bad. Others may have founded different fighting styles within their aspects, or simply carried out legendary deeds, deeds only possible by someone with the strength that would also allow them to permanently imprint their personality on the armour.

Definately aggree - this is how I see it.

A new phoenix lord could be 'born' if they became an exarch with such a strong force of will/personality/prescence whatever, that when they were 'replaced' by the next and subsequent generations of exarch that they were 'reborn' each time as themselves, rather than a meld of each person as a group.