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View Full Version : 40k not being so grimdark



tez
18-05-2009, 06:31
If you think about it, the average life of an imperial citizen isn't that grim and dark and warlike. In the codexes the battles are like centuries apart and they take place on different planets. So some people might not even have to live through wars.

What do you guys think.

DoombringerATT
18-05-2009, 06:45
Uh, the events mentioned in the Codex don't even scratch the surface of the actual amount of war, famine, poverty, torture, and oppression of the 41st Millennium...

Those events in the Codices are simply notable or honorable mentions, while the vast majority of the atrocities that take place are left up to Black Library, Forge World, and the fanbase itself to postulate on. There are a million Imperial worlds and quadrillions of humans living on them - there's no way Games Workshop could account for every one of those planets' histories in a ~100 page rulebook...

So yeah, while there are peaceful worlds, subsectors, and sectors out there, and likely many millions, billions, or even trillions of humans out there who may never experience war in their lifetimes, those are still only a relatively small fraction of the Galaxy's total population; the vast majority of which probably won't be dying of old age...

Demon Druss
18-05-2009, 06:50
Well when places like the Ultra Marines empire system is considered fairly idyllic ( shudders and violently gets sick! ) you really wonder if there is a single "normal" planet in the Imperium. Anyway whats the fun of being an Imperial Planetary Governor if there wasn't some cults, xeno's , or completely insane thing happening?

Nezmith
18-05-2009, 07:22
Anyway whats the fun of being an Imperial Planetary Governor if there wasn't some cults, xeno's , or completely insane thing happening?

Imagine life these days, and ask yourself if having another country invade yours, or a civil war or daemons appearing out of holes in reality is really exciting. :D

Cool_Mint
18-05-2009, 08:04
Uh, the events mentioned in the Codex don't even scratch the surface of the actual amount of war, famine, poverty, torture, and oppression of the 41st Millennium...
............
Says who?

Tanner MIrabel
18-05-2009, 13:07
Take a look at Ravenor Returned for some flavour of daily life in the Imperium: dirty, violent and very grim. You don't have to be at war to have a bad time...

Lord Damocles
18-05-2009, 13:11
Depends where you live. I suspect life on a paradise world is pretty good.
On Armageddon, not so much.

DoombringerATT
18-05-2009, 13:27
Says just about every other background book out there, Cool_Mint...

For example, let me grab any one book from my bookshelf, and I guarantee you it'll have something in it to the effect of "the entire galaxy is at war", not just "the Galaxy's at war, but only in the places mentioned in the codices..."

Let's see; aha, Cities of Death.


In a galaxy in which every planet is a bitterly contested warzone, cities make for the bloodiest of battlefields.

[...]

For ten thousand years the Imperium of Man has stretched across the galaxy, conquering world upon world, settling them in the name of the Emperor. Upon every planet settled by Mankind are built vast sprawling cities, each one a metropolis teaming with Imperial citizens. Grim places at the best of times, these cities become hellish battle zones where even the sturdiest of warriors find themselves tested to their limit.

[...]

Every day the unceasing war that engulfs the galaxy swallows another hive of human life, for th evalue of a city within a campaign cannot be underestimated.

As you can see, there's a hell of a lot more going on in the Galaxy than is simply spelled out for us by the Codex.

Hell, the very existence of background books that add things and not just embellish currently existing events proves this.

DapperAnarchist
18-05-2009, 15:03
There are a lot of small wars - the 3rd Ed. IG Codex made this clear - where rather than vast sweeping wars that consume planets and require the support of an entire sector, its one Kill Kroozer of Orks descending on a civilised world and opposed only by the local PDF and Arbites. However, its also true that most worlds that are attacked aren't fortified garrison worlds, with experience in weathering invasions - and hence, probably haven't been invaded in living memory.

malika
18-05-2009, 15:33
Bleh...in 40k every day on every world there is a giant war going on. It's all so dark and mean and depressing. Every house has turrets on top of it and everybody drives around in a tank.

DapperAnarchist
18-05-2009, 17:21
I once saw a guy driving through town in a tank... Well, it was an AFV, little one, with a turret, and he was standing in the turret, having the time of his life. Probably driving to the local barracks...

For a given value of war, yes there is. There's war all the time here too. Including Vietnam and "police actions" in places like Guatemala, the US has been at war for about 200 years since 1776... I think war here meant American soldiers in combat... There are internal wars, wars against Xenos, both defensive and offensive, wars between Governors, wars between the sub-Governor rulers (like Hive Lords), wars between Navigator Houses and Trader families, so on and so forth. Many of these would be small skirmishes... and of course, there is the eternal war of human souls between the Emperor and Chaos...

EarthAndAllStars
18-05-2009, 18:07
I think it is hinted at in certain novels that some agri worlds might pass a few generations without much if any conflict, particularly major conflicts. Even with no major wars taking place the possibility of Dark Eldar raiders and internal Chaos cults means that every world will eventually have to commit soldiers to battle.

Millions of Imperial citizens probably live their entire lives without conflict and perhaps in relative peace. Things like Space Marines and the Eldar are probably considered myth or legend.

Cool_Mint
18-05-2009, 19:27
If it was all that bad they'd only have themselves to blame for having children. If you live in a World of perpeptual war or famine continuing the species is a pretty dumb (not to mention selfish) thing to do.

DoombringerATT
18-05-2009, 19:35
We're talking about the survival of mankind, Cool_Mint... :wtf:

I'm pretty sure having kids and propagating the species is a pretty selfless thing to do.

Worrying about the 'touchy-feely' fate of the trillions of children being brought up to continue to fight against the enemies of mankind, on the other hand, is in actuality the selfish thing to do.

The aim is to win said perpetual battle against mankind's enemies, not to simply lay down and give up... :rolleyes:

DarkMatter2
18-05-2009, 19:57
I honestly have been wishing lately that 40k had a slightly more high tech less grimdark aesthetic.

malika
18-05-2009, 19:58
Well when stuff goes really bad the birthrates seriously go down, just look at history and demographics. If the Imperium was so horrible all the time everywhere I think the population would go down pretty fast because people stop to reproduce enough. Look at countries such as Russia which are having serious population problems at the moment that the government has introduced sort of "fertility holidays" in which people are encouraged to reproduce.

Cool_Mint
18-05-2009, 21:48
We're talking about the survival of mankind, Cool_Mint... :wtf:

I'm pretty sure having kids and propagating the species is a pretty selfless thing to do.

Worrying about the 'touchy-feely' fate of the trillions of children being brought up to continue to fight against the enemies of mankind, on the other hand, is in actuality the selfish thing to do.

The aim is to win said perpetual battle against mankind's enemies, not to simply lay down and give up... :rolleyes:

Wouldn't it be better for all the non-chaos races to become extinct? The survival of the human race is utterly pointless if it's not a life worth living.

But I stand by the GI Joe/Lord Of The Rings theory of Warhammer - it's all cartoon violence.

brother arkio
18-05-2009, 22:20
I think it largely depends on where you are in the imperium, standards of living on hive worlds are inhumane. However some worlds are quite nice to live on with conditions similar to present day Earth.

DapperAnarchist
19-05-2009, 01:44
Yeah, here's the thing. "quite nice to live on with conditions similar to present day Earth" covers a lot of stuff. Ok, nowhere is like Cadia (constant invasion, super-fascism), or Catachan (the planet hates you), or Mordia (its dark, Chaos is somehow involved, super-duper-fascism with fancy hats), or the underhive. But still - Rwanda? Cambodia? North Korea? Burma (I refuse to call it Myanmar, until a proper government uses the name)?

We say its so silly that everyone's always at war... But WE'RE always at war, right now.

Felwether
19-05-2009, 05:09
Wouldn't it be better for all the non-chaos races to become extinct? The survival of the human race is utterly pointless if it's not a life worth living.

You've got to take Imperial propaganda into account.

You're breeding/fighting/farming/toiling away in a manufactorum for the benefit of mankind. You further humanity's fight against its enemies and move it closer to its manifest destiny as the rightful, dominant force in the galaxy.

And if you don't like it you get a bolt between the eyes.

Lexington
19-05-2009, 05:44
Like anything else from GW, the life of an "average" Imperial citizen varies depending on who is writing it.

Personally, I'd say that less than 10% of mankind ever actually sees war in the 40K universe.

massey
19-05-2009, 05:45
Wouldn't it be better for all the non-chaos races to become extinct?

No.


The survival of the human race is utterly pointless if it's not a life worth living.


Says who? Just because life is hard doesn't mean you quit trying. If people quit trying, we wouldn't have a life worth living today.

I'm sure life sucked under the Nazis. I'm sure it sucked in the Soviet Union. Did the people just give up and quit? No. They kept working in the hope that something better would come along.

You don't just go quietly into the night. You don't give up without a fight. You endure.

Hellebore
19-05-2009, 07:48
According to the latest guard codex, every single Imperial world must give up a percentage of its armed forces (ie the PDF they are required by Imperial Law to recruit) to the Imperial Guard as regiments.

How often this happens is not said. ie it could be every year or every 10 years.

That means that war affects every single planet in the Imperium and the recruitment of the guard affects millions of people that aren't even in the guard. Their families, friends, loved ones etc are all being affected by their (sometimes forcible) recruitment and transfer off world.

Considering the ordered manner in which regiments are pulled into warzones (in ever increasing concentric spheres around the main war zone as the strength of the war dictates), some planets will be affected more than others, and some barely at all. I doubt there are many planets affected in segmentum Solar (although ironically Armageddon is in that segmentum), but it's the smallest of all the segmentae.

The Imperium is a militarised society. Every planet contributes. The navy also pressgangs millions of people into working as ratings on the naval ships.

Hellebore

Cool_Mint
19-05-2009, 22:17
No.



Says who? Just because life is hard doesn't mean you quit trying. If people quit trying, we wouldn't have a life worth living today.

I'm sure life sucked under the Nazis. I'm sure it sucked in the Soviet Union. Did the people just give up and quit? No. They kept working in the hope that something better would come along.

You don't just go quietly into the night. You don't give up without a fight. You endure.

They were kidding themselves. Our World is a better place for a few people but there is still far more evil than good. That's just the way things have always been and always will be. We're living in a Universe where true happiness is not possible.

DarkMatter2
19-05-2009, 22:33
They were kidding themselves. Our World is a better place for a few people but there is still far more evil than good. That's just the way things have always been and always will be. We're living in a Universe where true happiness is not possible.

lol. Wow, that is some emo stuff right there.

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-05-2009, 09:53
Look at countries such as Russia which are having serious population problems at the moment that the government has introduced sort of "fertility holidays" in which people are encouraged to reproduce.

I'm sure the Imperium could come up with better incentives. Like, you know, 'have kids or we will torture you, condemn you, and murder you and everyone you know horribly, and all your souls will writhe in eternal damnation for all time because you, you singular and selfish scumbag, betrayed your Imperium and thus your God-Emperor."

Basically, you'd better get it on like Donkey Kong. But it better not make you late for your sixteen hour shift at the factory.


The survival of the human race is utterly pointless if it's not a life worth living.

Subjective, and not a view Imperial doctrine would endorse with anything but extreme and bloody violence.


They were kidding themselves. Our World is a better place for a few people but there is still far more evil than good. That's just the way things have always been and always will be. We're living in a Universe where true happiness is not possible.

Well aren't you just a bright ray of sunshine.

Condottiere
22-05-2009, 10:09
Living in the Imperium might be like living in the New World (ours). You have a wide range of environments and people. If you lived in Kansas and Alaska you might not note the flow of history. If you live in New York, you are in a technological heavily populated hub. If you live in Rio de Janeiro, specifically in the slums, you realize that live isn't worth much, someone is always shooting at you and most of the authorities are corrupt.

Fixer
22-05-2009, 10:21
I don't think it helps that everything is written in such a pessimistic and negative way.

In the Eye of Terror campaign the Imperium held a sector's primary hiveworld but lost control all all the supporting planets. The Sector was thus doomed as there was no way to feed the hiveworld's inhabitants.

Likewise in another sector the Imperium held onto all the supporting planets but lost control of the primary hiveworld. As such the sector was now doomed because the hive world was so super-important.

The Imperium just can't win in these things. You could have the Imperium of man winning a campaign against the Tyranids and Orks in the Eastern fringe ending their threat forever. The conclusion written up would write a report on how ammunition reserves would be severely depleted, requiring many factory staff to work paid overtime for months to come.

Lord Malorne
22-05-2009, 10:30
How about armageddon, the penal unit was it?

Two teams, one was given the ammo the other was given the guns, opposite sides of the city they had to go through the underground (being a hive that underground was vast) and meet up and kill all the infiltrating orks... Thats grim.

Condottiere
22-05-2009, 10:48
Sounds rather like bureaucracy.