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Lord_Crull
21-05-2009, 01:27
How long does it take Hive worlds to grow from normal worlds into the vast city-planets?

PondaNagura
21-05-2009, 02:48
nothing is really concrete in 40k, so it depends on the environs of the planet, the cultures needs to grow, and the resources available. if the colonial population was in the billion and the resources were made available to do so, it have have taken a few centuries, where if there was a smaller population, with less excuses to spread out, it could have taken a few millennia.

Felwether
21-05-2009, 04:47
Well it wouldn't be a quick thing anyway. I would say hundreds if not thousands of years.

I suppose it would depend, as PondaNagura said, on the planet's initial population as well as the rate of population growth.

Condottiere
21-05-2009, 10:22
I'd say that Hive world had a different path, based on population and resources. A simple way would be to take Earth circa 2009 AD and do a little projecting.

Lord Malorne
21-05-2009, 10:34
Never, why the assumption they do? people are constantly conscripted and I have never seen anywhere anything talking about Hives being expanded, possibly a new hive made however that happens, with that happeing enough which is unlikely due to the resources required off planet to feed tham let alone the millions that conscripted...

TBH I would say never, Terra is the only city planet.

laudarkul
21-05-2009, 10:51
I totally agree with PondaNagura statement, but I would also the importance of the world. If it is an industrial world with great importance then the time period would be much shorter (100years-200years) due to work labor needed.

Felwether
21-05-2009, 12:17
Never, why the assumption they do? people are constantly conscripted and I have never seen anywhere anything talking about Hives being expanded, possibly a new hive made however that happens, with that happeing enough which is unlikely due to the resources required off planet to feed tham let alone the millions that conscripted...

TBH I would say never, Terra is the only city planet.


Eh? I always assumed that Hives developed over time.

It doesn't make sense to me that they'd just build them.

I thought Hives were so big because they constantly had parts added to them.

Condottiere
21-05-2009, 12:29
Hive worlds would need an offworld eco system to survive, that means you need a bunch of agricultural planets and possibly some asteroid belt industrialization.

Felwether
21-05-2009, 12:34
I wonder what determines whether a planet becomes a heavily populated city world or a heavily populated hive world?

Ecological disaster I'm guessing.

Mr_Rose
21-05-2009, 12:48
Or even just a hostile ecology at the time of colonisation.
Suppose that your colony ship is entering an uncharted system for the first time and the most useful world available is an L-class hellhole (N2/H2SO4 atmosphere, no liquid water and a surface temp somewhere up around 330K), the rest being barely noticeable specks of rock or really scary. What do you do?
You can't go home because home is already overcrowded and this was a one-shot deal anyway, nor do you want to give up and die because you're Human and that goes entirely against your nature, so you land anyway and build a completely sealed colony.
Then, as your population grows, you keep adding sealed domes to the existing structures until eventually you have to start building up, reinforcing the older domes and putting new ones on top. Rinse and repeat for x-thousand generations.

Condottiere
21-05-2009, 13:51
You need to pull resources from somewhere, and that means an active and knowledgeable scientific community, not something I'd associate with 40K's Imperium.

Griefbringer
21-05-2009, 13:53
Hive worlds would need an offworld eco system to survive, that means you need a bunch of agricultural planets and possibly some asteroid belt industrialization.

Plus some reason for those other worlds to provide you supplies - be that valuable manpower, industrial capacity or something else. Those agriworlds will not ship you food just for humanitarian reasons.

Mr_Rose
21-05-2009, 13:56
You need to pull resources from somewhere, and that means an active and knowledgeable scientific community, not something I'd associate with 40K's Imperium.
OK, the Mechanicum are kooks to be sure, but that doesn't mean they don't know anything. Plus, asteroid mining isn't actually that hard once you've figured out a magnetometer and how to duck.
Besides, who said anything about 40K's imperium? Many/most hive-worlds are older than the Imperium and none are younger than about 6K or so, that I know of.

Idaan
21-05-2009, 14:00
I wonder what determines whether a planet becomes a heavily populated city world or a heavily populated hive world?

Ecological disaster I'm guessing. Not all Hives are self-contained megastructures in a uninhabitable environment. Some are just vast cities that span great measures of land. Of course, the environment quickly becomes polluted because of the development, so there aren't many tropical paradise Hive Worlds
The difference between a Hive World and Civilised World is population: Hive Worlds have 150-300 billions of inhabitants according to 3e Rulebook. Though this might no longer be valid as in Dark Heresy there are several Hive Worlds with just around 25 billions

DarkMatter2
21-05-2009, 14:07
I'd say probably a couple of thousands of years depending on the medical tech and starting population.

IIRC, if current 21st century levels of population growth for the human race are sustained for the next, say, 10,000 years, there would theoretically be enough human mass to fill the entire universe.

Condottiere
21-05-2009, 14:25
If we don't find some habitable places to expand to, we'll be killing each other off, and hey ... there's the new Soylent Green flavour.

Col. Tartleton
21-05-2009, 14:36
Well lets look at the human race on earth:

The billion mark came at about 1804.
The 2 billion mark came at about 1927 (doubled in 123 years)
The 4 billion mark came at about 1974 (doubled in 47 years)
The predicted 8 billion mark comes at about 2025 (doubled in about 51 years)

So that seems it has stabilized somewhat that it doubles about every 50 years.

so starting with a world with a modern standard of living (which is the only reason it takes so long previously to get to the billion and the two billion.)

With a hundred thousand starting colonists, the in good conditions the billion point should come in about 160-80 or so years. This leads to the 10 billion point coming in about 320-30 years from the start. The Hundred billion point would come in by 450 at the latest.

So in a little over four hundred years in optimum conditions (with some large casualties at points along the way) you can get 100 billion people and be a legitimate hive world.

Given the entire history of mankind at these rates, your looking at a joke population (as its clearly not the case with all the wars) of:

[6.6E5 x2^760] which I tried on my TI 83 and it laughed at me and said overflow.

I estimate its really big...

DapperAnarchist
21-05-2009, 15:19
I did a rough calculation a little while ago. Assume that in every generation (25 years, lets say) over a 38000 year period the population renews itself (so 1 child per every person) plus a bit (I went conservative and went an extra half child per person - so 3 children from every couple, assuming everyone is in a couple). That means every 25 years, the population increases by 1.5. Its low, because I wanted to allow for Age of Strife and the like. Still, in 38000 years, the population will be 13680000000000 (I think thats the right number of 0s. Its 13680000 million [I calculated in millions to make it fit on my phone calculator, and started with 6 billion {6000 million} as a nice round number])

TheOverlord
21-05-2009, 16:29
That's... pretty mindblowing

Lord Malorne
21-05-2009, 16:42
Eh? I always assumed that Hives developed over time.

It doesn't make sense to me that they'd just build them.

I thought Hives were so big because they constantly had parts added to them.

Hives build upwardsa as levels sink under the massive weight, a lot of what I know comes from WD's and Necromunda, they don't expand, I don't know if you can make hive cities, but from what I have read they are a designed to be Hives, thats the impression I got from codex armageddon and other sources, I don't think they become hives from cities over time but who knows its possible, planetsrike may shed more light.

Col. Tartleton
21-05-2009, 16:49
6600000x 6.0645238 =4.002585708 x10^7



multiplied by 10^228= is 4.002585708 x10^235

or 40,025,857,080,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000

Yay

That's over a googol^2

Dakkagor
21-05-2009, 16:56
Hives build upwardsa as levels sink under the massive weight, a lot of what I know comes from WD's and Necromunda, they don't expand, I don't know if you can make hive cities, but from what I have read they are a designed to be Hives, thats the impression I got from codex armageddon and other sources, I don't think they become hives from cities over time but who knows its possible, planetsrike may shed more light.

unfortuantly you are dead wrong, hives happen by accident via a confluence of need and population growth. Its laid out on pg 16 of the necromunda sourcebook:


"the hive probably began as a single hab-dome of plascrete or some other highly durable material. Over the years more domes were added together with borad tunnels and shafts to connect them. Eventually, new domes were built on top of the old, and further domes were raised on top of these, producing a honeycomb of large enclosed spaces. The thick walls and foundations of these man-made caverns give the hive its structural integrity."

So hives essentially occur by accident, building up over time without any real plan, like real cities. The process can be examined in the Dark heresy sourcebooks with the nightmare hive of Volg, a sector wide penal colony that is slowly developing into a very nasty hive, and Gunmetal city, a "young upstart" of a hive. Also note that most hives are at the centre of warp-routes (Armageddon, Scintalla, Port Maw, Necromunda) so its an application of cross roads settlements on a vast scale.

Condottiere
21-05-2009, 17:05
OK, the Mechanicum are kooks to be sure, but that doesn't mean they don't know anything. Plus, asteroid mining isn't actually that hard once you've figured out a magnetometer and how to duck.
Besides, who said anything about 40K's imperium? Many/most hive-worlds are older than the Imperium and none are younger than about 6K or so, that I know of.There's no logical reason for Hive planets to develop, the inhabitants should either have died or emigrated.

That leaves two conclusions:

1. Service industry, like training facilities, bureaucracy, etcetera

2. Manufacturing, simultaneously hollowing out the crust, if not the core.

Lord Malorne
21-05-2009, 17:10
unfortuantly you are dead wrong, hives happen by accident via a confluence of need and population growth. Its laid out on pg 16 of the necromunda sourcebook:



So hives essentially occur by accident, building up over time without any real plan, like real cities. The process can be examined in the Dark heresy sourcebooks with the nightmare hive of Volg, a sector wide penal colony that is slowly developing into a very nasty hive, and Gunmetal city, a "young upstart" of a hive. Also note that most hives are at the centre of warp-routes (Armageddon, Scintalla, Port Maw, Necromunda) so its an application of cross roads settlements on a vast scale.

Haha! but they do build up so I was right! And in my first post I did say however that is, in regards to how they come about, as I didn't know/remember so not dead wrong :angel:.

They are not built on cross roads, they become ('build' those )cross roads.

PondaNagura
21-05-2009, 17:33
I assumed we were talking general history of development for existing Hiveworlds from point A [way back in the Age of Exploration} to point B now.

new hiveworlds wouldn't really be raised over night, nor would they really even come about given the circumstances of humanity in modern 40k. like ancient to modern day cities, their are various layers of infrastructure that made up the initial hives, and eventually for whatever needs they either expanded upwards, outwards, or built new complexes over the planets.

also i don't think you guys speculating the math of the Imperium's population is the least bit accurate, as humans don't live forever, and even the elite only live for say 200-300 years. you haven't taken into account the vastness of wars, planetary wars where sections of a hiveworld implode and crush millions of people within. the infrastructure of ventilating and temperature control breaks down, and the underhive suffocates, while the exterior hive might freeze/fry [depending on the external conditions].
then their mass epidemics, as anything happening in a confined space will spread rampant, and having it cycle within that space will take its toll on a hive city more so than an agrarian city-state.
lets not forget natural disasters both terrestrial and cosmic. and then their just the whole logistics of feeding all of those people.
modern Terra is around 6 billion people, and some of the larger populated systems, such as Africa, Asia and Indian subcontinent definitely have issues with finding potable water and food stuff. and in the the next generation i wouldn't be surprised if we have a stagnation of population if not a [sudden] decline, as mass population suddenly starve to death or the bodies become impossible to procreate.

do you even comprehend how large a googol is? sure it looks fine on paper with all those zeroes, but in relation to reality a googol is a number that is greater than the number of stars in the known universe. i'm not exaggerating.

DapperAnarchist
21-05-2009, 22:53
Yeah, thats why I capped the 25 year growth at 1.5. They don't live forever, but they do replace themselves, and 1.5 times each 25 years is WAY slower then the current growth rate. The Colonel's numbers do seem a bit... vast. However, as a crude pegging point, mine seems ok.

Much of the water and food problem of the Third World is due to bad management from both colonial and post-colonial goverments. They could sustain themselves, but corruption and stupidity get in the way.

Raven1
22-05-2009, 01:17
[6.6E5 x2^760] which I tried on my TI 83 and it laughed at me and said overflow.

I estimate its really big...

I did it on my TI-89 and got infinity. So, it's really big. I also in general agree with you about the mechanics of population growth.

What you also have to take into consideration is WH40K wide spread war, and things like cult infestion that lead to Exterminatus. that will put a kink in anyone's day.

Condottiere
22-05-2009, 07:55
Or think about it - Orks should be able to out reproduce humans, and how long have they been space-faring?

Carkey
22-05-2009, 08:38
6600000x 6.0645238 =4.002585708 x10^7



multiplied by 10^228= is 4.002585708 x10^235

or 40,025,857,080,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 ,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0 00,000,000,000

Yay

That's over a googol^2

Wow. And I thought I had a lot of cousins.

Either way, the true scope of the population on a Hiveworld is beyond comprehension. On Earth, the only multi celled organism that have number like 300 billion are ants. To cater for that number of humans takes an unimaginably amount of resources. If a average human eats about 5 kilos of food each day, nearly 1,500,000,000 kilograms of food per day.

El_Machinae
22-05-2009, 12:09
Ants are not major components of the total ecosystem. And I guess that 'owning' only a fraction of the stars in the galaxy makes humans only a teeny part of the 40k ecosystem.

Unlike humans, ants seems to be able to co-exist in the grand ecosystem of our planet, despite their huge numbers./volume/mass

DapperAnarchist
22-05-2009, 12:27
Apparently (as in, I remember hearing this as a throw away comment on a nature show on English tv) beetles, when taken all together, make up about a third of the animal mass of the Earth (as in, not inanimate, not plant, fungi, virus, prion, or bacterial)....

Evilhomer
22-05-2009, 12:29
Iirc a steel legion regiment gained rites of conquest to a planet not far from Armageddon (Minerva?), and its said that the planet has bloomed under effective leadership, becoming a major arms manufacturer in the region. I'm pretty sure the little blurb that this came from (Armageddon 3 website?) mentioned that Minerva is expected to become a hive world and may even surpass Armageddon in terms of strategic importance in a few hundred to few thousand years...

Ekranoplan
22-05-2009, 19:38
You need to pull resources from somewhere, and that means an active and knowledgeable scientific community, not something I'd associate with 40K's Imperium.

True, but the Imperium of Man has all the knowledge and tools already. What they lack is an effective method of inquiry, which has greatly slowed (if not reversed) technological development.

DarkMatter2
22-05-2009, 20:58
Ants are not major components of the total ecosystem.

Ummm...what?

Ants make up something like 15-20% of the biomass on earth.

There are actually insect species whose survival strategy is to look like ants so that predators don't bother trying to eat them.

Condottiere
22-05-2009, 21:04
True, but the Imperium of Man has all the knowledge and tools already. What they lack is an effective method of inquiry, which has greatly slowed (if not reversed) technological development.Inquiring minds outside the organs of the Inquisition seem to be a liability.

Ekranoplan
22-05-2009, 22:24
Inquiring minds outside the organs of the Inquisition seem to be a liability.

Yup. I would say the Imperium of Man is extremely foolish for their fear of new ideas, but it is this fear that prevents people from experimenting with the warp and dooming everyone to something worse then the Imperium.