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tez
25-05-2009, 08:13
Would it be possible if there was a faction of Humans none chaos nore imperium but unlike other suggestions know about the Imperium and have like spies infiltrating it to redirect warfleets away from their sector and stuff.

mrln68
25-05-2009, 08:22
There are non-Chaos...non-Imperial human groups.

Infiltrating the Imperium...haven't heard of any - but feasible. Separated since the time of strife - sure. Forgotten - definitely. Rebelling - most definitely. Defecting to the Tau - surprisingly not more often.

As opposed to actively trying to avoid detection though, they would probably be better off passively avoiding detection, i.e. - staying local and quiet.

tez
25-05-2009, 08:24
Yeah but what if they like really hate tyranny and are freedom fighters and they have all been affected by its iron claw and such and they try to help out people like blowing up black ships and prisions and such.

Arakanis
25-05-2009, 08:32
It's possible, but the inquisition is going to see it as treason, just like any other treason and it's going to get the same brutal response. That sort of thing just doesn't last, even with Chaos powers behind it. What are the chances a bunch of disorganized kids will be able to destroy an Imperial fortress, or super weapon?

Devil Tree
25-05-2009, 08:43
Yeah but what if they like really hate tyranny and are freedom fighters and they have all been affected by its iron claw and such and they try to help out people like blowing up black ships and prisions and such.

Stopping tyranny by blowing stuff up? From the way you describe them they sound a lot like a Chaotic front group, that or a terrorist organization. Besides, claiming to be “Freedom Fighters” is classic Chaotic propaganda.:eyebrows:

Scorpius_78
25-05-2009, 08:43
It's possible, but the inquisition is going to see it as treason, just like any other treason and it's going to get the same brutal response. That sort of thing just doesn't last, even with Chaos powers behind it. What are the chances a bunch of disorganized kids will be able to destroy an Imperial fortress, or super weapon?

none :D

I dont think the idea of freedom fighters fits in with 40k.

just my 2 cents

tez
25-05-2009, 09:11
Okay, let's say that they are hunted by the Inquisition. What if they are like in those movies like star wars like the rebels or the French resistance and when I said blow up I mean blow a hole through the prision to allow "Traitors" to escape.

imperial90
25-05-2009, 09:15
Me neither, one of the few imperial forces in 40k that doesnt appear incompetent to some degree is the inquisition, and a rebel group that doesnt have chaos backing them would seem like childs play to the inquisition who would laugh as a squad of heavily armed and armored sisters appear and burn them all to ashes, atleast those that dont explode from bolter rounds, or melted from melta's, and forget about blackships, yah know those things that hold some of the most dangerous and powerful humans in existance? I'd imagine security on something like that would make said rebels run home crying to their mommies.

Starwar rebels ive always considered a bad example, rebels wear cloth, storm troopers armor, yet storm troopers always seem to take higher casualties... wtf?

The Imperium makes the Empire of starwars look like a utopia by comparison

tez
25-05-2009, 09:20
Wait what if, if it's not open war but like spying and freeing prisioners and maby most of the rebels would kind of blend in with society or something.

Borsil
25-05-2009, 09:21
In Star Wars though, as soon as the Empire had a weapon capable of destroying a rebelling planet they used it. The Imperium already has more than enough world-destroying weapons, so I can't imagine anyone taking an active front against them lasting very long. Even if they managed to make them selves a nuisance, it wouldn't be that long till they were tracked down and then, assuming they could fight off Guard, Sisters and Marines, down come the virus warheads, cyclonic torpedoes etc
Maybe if they were purely space based- no planetary bases, only a few large ships floating around, but then they would probably not be able to travel through the warp and would face self imposed isolation-hard to wage a guerilla war when you can't travel very fast...

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 09:22
Best thing for them to do, is try to stay well under the radar. Live a simple life, do lots of farming. Drink mead and try to stay out of space. You know, just do it the old fashioned way.

Keep your grass green and the sky blue. That kind of thing...

IAMNOTHERE
25-05-2009, 09:25
Small scale, local, insurrecction against an oppressive, planerty system is to be expected.

The inquisition probably wont be concerned as it's almost expected that not all the planetry populations will be singing off the same song sheet.

imperial90
25-05-2009, 09:32
He's talking about blowing up holes in a black ship, that kinda makes it the inquisitions concern

mrln68
25-05-2009, 09:37
Ordo Malleus wouldn't care (as long as they weren't aided by Chaos). Ordo Xenos wouldn't care (as long as they weren't aided by aliens). Ordo Hereticus might take issue with things, as the group could be considered heretics.

Still, I doubt the Inquisition would be much involved in a group like this. Space Marines? Yep - but they are pansies. Send in an Assassin (Ordo...forget off the top of my head). Kill a few dozen of their leaders and watch them go back to being quiet again.

If you would like background to support an idea which you have, consider making them Tau allies. There was a bit of fluff on the old GW website which talked about a transmission from an IG rebel group telling people how great life under the Tau control was compared to the Empire. Wouldn't be a long stretch to make them into freedom fighters as well. With the Tyranid threat in that side of the Galaxy they would likely be more or less left alone - unless they became too successful. The Tau would be able to give them a bit of cover and support.

imperial90
25-05-2009, 09:47
Once again, black ship, attacking one of those makes it their problem, seeing that black ships are inquisition ships, that makes ALL the ordo's have an issue with them

mrln68
25-05-2009, 09:53
Yes, but the Black ships would violate both the Chaos and Witch clauses - don't know if the Xenos would care too much though. Not to mention Blowing up a Black Ship would be a very hard target - probably only next to doing something silly like stealing a Cannoness's under garments or other such foolishness.

Spying, and doing silly such things as he mentions in his 1st and 4th posts wouldn't really cause the Inquisition to care much at all - as long as they don't start some form of religion which goes against the Imperial Creed or utilize psykers to get the job done.

IAMNOTHERE
25-05-2009, 10:00
Just how are they going to attack a black ship? 99.9999999999999% of the population has no idea they exist.

This is the emperors food of choice, do you seriously think a disporportionate response wouldn't be forthcoming if they messes with one?

The massive breches in security involved alone are staggering, Chaos can't mess with these, what makes you think a human group could?

tez
25-05-2009, 10:09
Okay forgetr about the black ships what if they just targeted prisions where people are accused of being a traitor?

mrln68
25-05-2009, 10:31
If they target prisons holding people accused of being traitors...doesn't that make them traitors (and the charges most likely correct and not oppressive)?

Cool_Mint
25-05-2009, 10:37
What is the Imperium?

It occurs to me that corruption has always been endemic to the Governments of great Empires and the Imperium is run by the most beaurocratic and superstitious people in the Galaxy. Does the Emperor actually trust his own Senate?

I think it's quite possible that over the course of Centuries the only people left actually working in the interests of the human-race or loyal to the Emperor could be a resistance movement fighting to restore the Imperium.

tez
25-05-2009, 10:38
Okay What if they didnt start off as part of the Imperium. They just know of the Imperium and the Inquisition think that they are imperials gone traitor and they have suicide drugs so none have been captured alive for questioning.

mrln68
25-05-2009, 10:42
It has long been my opinion that corruption has always been endemic to people - not governments. The government itself is corrupt because of the people who are in it. The resistance would be corrupt for the same reasons that the Imperium is corrupt.

The only ones not corrupt are the Grey Knights (says so in their fluff)...
_____________

I think you should not worry so much about what people think of your what ifs and just go with it. If people like it, they like it - if not...they won't. Based off what I am seeing there will not be a simple answer which you will like.

Sceleris82
25-05-2009, 10:43
It could work, if they basicly werent a problem to the leaders of the planet. The reason for this is psykers, basicly if they capture a member they can rip his brain open and get all the info they need, and without the chaos powers aiding then it will be all to easy, for the forces of the imperium to track them down and kill them in short order.

But again, if they stay really small, and dont do stuff like blowing prisons up, then the imperium wont care, and they have a chance.

tez
25-05-2009, 10:50
As I said before Suicide drug!!!

Nicha11
25-05-2009, 11:09
Jeesh why are you guys so negative?

Rambo sounds like he will never work, but he does.

The French Resistance was very succesful against a powerful organised opponent.

Just because it is unlikely doesn't mean it can't happen.

tez
25-05-2009, 11:10
Thank you!!

Cool_Mint
25-05-2009, 11:39
It could work, if they basicly werent a problem to the leaders of the planet. The reason for this is psykers, basicly if they capture a member they can rip his brain open and get all the info they need, and without the chaos powers aiding then it will be all to easy, for the forces of the imperium to track them down and kill them in short order.

But again, if they stay really small, and dont do stuff like blowing prisons up, then the imperium wont care, and they have a chance.

You think they wouldn't have Psykers or anti-psyker defences?

imperial90
25-05-2009, 11:50
Um no the french resistance wasnt, this arguements been had here on the forums before over the french resistance, and well it kind of show'd the resistance didnt actually do that much, infact the biggest influx of new recruits was due to the germans deciding to ship a bunch of men to go work for them, in order to not go to work, they joined the resistance, hardly the most inspiring story.

As to rambo, the imperium has its own rambo, backed by planet destroying weapons, titans, space marines, psykers, and assasins, good luck to that guy when he's fighting more then farmers turn'd undisciplined soldiers.

For the suicide drugs, only the most hardline of individuals would have the nerve to take it, and despite having it the imperium would eventually catch some one who didnt have the nerve, or simply didnt have the time.

Most likely with the Imperiums complete disregard for civilian casualties, they'd find the general area their in and make sure nothing but a crater remains of their former base, the reason why guerilla fighters are so succesful now is exactly because of the fear of civilian causualties, best way to fight guerrilas is to give them no place to run to ground, I could imagine the Imperium, an empire that finds genocide of alien species on the verge of mundane, I could see the imperium finding such tactics rather attractive

In the end, well it might be there for awhile, but theres nothing the imperium hates more then those they see as traitors, and they react accordingly.

jmcg1989
25-05-2009, 13:52
the way i see it emotions would creep in with whatever politics said group had
only chaos could follow
group becomes cult



although to be honest i cant imagine such a group existing within the 40k universe

if you look at the baader-meinhof group when they started bombing places
the govenment reacted by turning germany into a police state
and in about a day most of the groups prominent members were either killed or arrested.
(dont hold me on this, info based on teh film, lol)

given that the imperium is in many ways the ultimate police state then such a group wouldnt really stand a chance

you'd have to come up with some serious background as to how they manage to operate, hell, even survive in the 40k universe

madprophet
25-05-2009, 15:48
Separatists do exist, even in the fluff. Macharius conquered 1000 worlds, after his death they almost all seceded and a 70 year crusade could not reintegrate them all. That means there are still independent human states in the Segmentum Pacificus.

If there are independent human states in the Segmentum Pacificus, there are certainly independent human states in the Eastern Fringe who have made their independence stick.

In all likelihood they wouldn't antagonize the Imperium too much, would occasionally find themselves fighting it or one of the alien factions.

Surgency
25-05-2009, 16:52
Without the support of the Imperium, I suspect that many of these planets would fall to the predations of some darker, more malevolent force. Think how ecstatic (literally) a DE raiding fleet would be to learn that unnamed planet 348543 was no longer under Imperial protection. Field trip anyone?

As for people blowing up prisons, that would immediately label them traitors in the Imperiums eyes. Using the excuse of mind control, suicide drugs, "she made me do it", none of that would work, as the Imperium just doesn't care, and a bullet is cheaper than a trial...

Bergioyn
25-05-2009, 17:29
Okay forgetr about the black ships what if they just targeted prisions where people are accused of being a traitor?

Otherwise good idea, but in Imperium people accused of being traitor are most likely just executed on spot instead of putting them to prison. Or possibly interrogated first, and then executed.

jmcg1989
25-05-2009, 18:07
Otherwise good idea, but in Imperium people accused of being traitor are most likely just executed on spot instead of putting them to prison. Or possibly interrogated first, and then executed.

i would imagine that, depending on the situation, most prisoners would be pressed into service in one of the many penal legions anyway
this is after all the 41st millenium, and there is only war

jmcg1989
25-05-2009, 18:41
You think they wouldn't have Psykers or anti-psyker defences?

that is a good point

if such a group was able to recruit someone who was a blank (ie pariah gene) then they would have an ace up the sleeve when it comes to psychers

Cool_Mint
25-05-2009, 18:44
Without the support of the Imperium, I suspect that many of these planets would fall to the predations of some darker, more malevolent force. Think how ecstatic (literally) a DE raiding fleet would be to learn that unnamed planet 348543 was no longer under Imperial protection. Field trip anyone?

As for people blowing up prisons, that would immediately label them traitors in the Imperiums eyes. Using the excuse of mind control, suicide drugs, "she made me do it", none of that would work, as the Imperium just doesn't care, and a bullet is cheaper than a trial...

Which Imperium? a resistance movement can exist within an existing Government or command structure. There's nothing to say that the Imperium isn't divided up into factions; the Adeptus Terra may claim that the Imperium is wholly united but I would expect it to be more like a Baronial system with power delegated to "Barons" or Governors who would control Planets or whole star-systems.

Besides, it takes forever to get a relief force to an attacked Planet so the Imperium would lose Planets all over the place if those Worlds didn't already have their own defenses.

imperial90
25-05-2009, 18:45
A blank? those things that make psykers look common? Those things where even the rumor of its existance/location has inquisitors in their droves heading over to find it for themselves, or to become Culexus assasins if its the pariah gene? If anything wouldnt that attract EVEN MORE attention, from some very powerful, very unfriendly, individuals.

jmcg1989
25-05-2009, 18:58
A blank? those things that make psykers look common? Those things where even the rumor of its existance/location has inquisitors in their droves heading over to find it for themselves, or to become Culexus assasins if its the pariah gene? If anything wouldnt that attract EVEN MORE attention, from some very powerful, very unfriendly, individuals.

at the start of the thread this resistance faction was blowing up black ships
:evilgrin:

any sense of realism fled this thread after then


it was just somethin that popped into my head anyway

Ranger S2H
25-05-2009, 20:58
I play an independant system that lies a good distance to the galactic south west. It is inhabited by humans and aliens, but is only defended by one race of aliens (the original natives of the system) which look human but are actually alien that evolved into humans and beyond humans. the only thing that keeps it alive is the fact the imperium doesnt officially know about it.

it uses spies, infiltration, assassination and a lot of other behind the scenes sabotage and resistance to keep the imperium from looking for them, and preventing it from getting organised and launching a crusade. with the right agents and operatives on the right locations and positions, they might be able to control the flow of information to delay the inevitable as long as possible, to buy time for their leader/hero to find a good defence in the form of a secret, hidden space marine legion.

Im still working on the fluff, but Im constantly changing it to cover up fluff holes, and pieces of info I missed. the only thing is it might not be grimm and dark enough for the 40k universe, but I like player the good guy anyway (more like the good bad cop)

note: its probably better to use with inquisitor than 40k.

Firaxin
26-05-2009, 01:17
In 40k, prisons tend to be whole planets.

Usually very inhospitable planets. The walls being the planet itself. Makes more sense to stay in the compound than to strike out on your own and die.

What will happen when your freedom fighters' ship arrives in orbit, unscheduled? They wouldn't be able to land on the opposite side of the planet and march across to wherever the compounds are. Sensors would pick them up.

PondaNagura
26-05-2009, 01:48
could just be fringe-state systems. they may have been better off than some of the other remote planets during the age of Strife, but the Heresy could have erupted before the Crusaders got a real chance to investigate the territory. they could be space-based "pirates" perhaps they have a base of operations in a nebula, or in one of the outer arms of the galaxy. might have to contend with xenos or at least parlay with them [well not orks or necrons for any instance].
maybe they were made aware of later 'crusades' that attempted to forage in their territories, and perhaps they have had relations with other fringe imperial systems, trading goods or information.

in modern 40k it would be difficult for the Imperium to spare any kind of large exploration fleet outside of maybe a Rogue Trader or some glory-hungry governor, to investigate much rumors in the way of human colonists [that have been further isolated so far these past 10+ millennia], given the galactic situation of Ork Waaagh!!!s, chaos incursions, planetary uprisings, xenos plagues, etc etc.

your idea has merit as an independent state that would like to remain that way, but don't expect your personal army to have any history-changing events in the whole scope of 40k, more likely would be just another thistle in the fingertip of the Imperium.
perhaps they intercept trade routes, invite other such systems to band together for protection, send personnel to interact with the more lowly assignments of imperial bureaucracy...

Cool_Mint
26-05-2009, 23:00
I think they could very much change events in the Imperium; the goings-on within the Adeptus Terra are largely a mystery so there's a huge blank where you could fit all kinds of secret internal conflicts affecting the way of life for dozens, hundreds or even thousands of Planets.

Ranger S2H
27-05-2009, 12:02
the way I see it is with the right agents on the right positions you can control the flow of information and so the truth. u can tell the imperium the waaagh on the other side of the galaxy is a bigger threat than the pirate fleets (who work for you), and they would never know it was you who caused the orks to waaagh in the first place.

another example could be where an assassin takes out an imperial governor (preferably making it look like an accident), so the imperium would need a new one. you made sure the order for that goes through someone on your payroll who arranges a new governor who "accidentally" happens to be one of your agents.

imperial90
27-05-2009, 13:22
Thats going abit upper risk dont u think? Doing something like that, if an inquisitor ever hears about it, espieicially an ordo hereticus inquistor (seeing that this sort of the thing is there job) wouldnt take too kindly to it, resulting in something like an eversor popping up at your door, and we all know they make the worst house guests, or the ultimate infiltrator, the Calidus assasin. Remember, all it takes is the slightest give away, and you'll have a paranoid, most likely trigger happy, ordo hereticus inquisitor feeling all giddy cause they have something to do.

Then or course theres that whole issue with loyalist psykers, who, if u actually have the influence to redirect Imperial ARMIES, can rather easily tell your allegiance.

I agree with the posts before, for this to be possible, it has to be kept small scale, redirectin crusades and armies is not small scale

Ranger S2H
27-05-2009, 13:41
good point, but I do think agents trained to infiltrate will have some kind of anti-psyker protection, be it tech, magic or something else.
I know the risk of inquisitors nosing around, and this is what I like to play in the inquisitor game, where small teams of my warriors (mostly undercover as stormtroopers/genadiers) make sure the inquisitor has something better to worry about, like his skin. give him a tip about rumours of a dangerous chaos/genestealer/heretic cult and offer to help him destroy them with your personal bodyguard. . . I know an inquisitor who isnt coming back, how tragic . . .

imperial90
27-05-2009, 14:46
but thats the thing, the inquisitor doesnt actually have to do anything in the case of sending a calidus in, or if theres a rumor of treason, all they have to do is make a few contacts on the world who will inform them, and we all know no one wants to get on the bad side of an inquisitor so i dont see it as that hard.

And why would he want you when he could just call in a group of space marines/ sisters of battle/ go to the nearest imperial guard general and get the equivelent, if not far superior (when looking at sisters/ marines) soldiers instead? Inquisitors arent stupid you know, many of them id imagine are paranoid buggers so u come up and offer to help, that automaticly raises eye brows

Sorros
27-05-2009, 19:51
Tau have humans under their control, former members of the Imperium who like the Greater Good.

Humans of neither Imperium force or Chaos.

imperial90
27-05-2009, 20:46
Not the point, he's talking about infiltrators within the imperium, and whether or not its actual feasible, on a planetary lvl, i dont see the imperium giving a damn so long as the rebel group doesnt seek to remove itself from the imperium. We know they exist, but we also know the typical imperial response to it.

Thorsburger
01-06-2009, 03:46
Ultimately, if you were going for ragtag rebel freedom fighters, i'd place them on the outskirts of imperial control, somewhere like the Halo Star system, thus reducing their interaction with the Inquisition and main bulk of the Imperium who would overpower and outmanouevre them easily (and any real world comparisons between french resistance and German occupiers etc is pretty pointless as the difference in power between the imperium and any other human society in 40k is vast beyond imagining).

that said if you wanted to have a group working within the very framework of the imperium, then i'd recommend reasding these:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Illuminati

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sensei

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cabal

the first two are old fluff that in theory (especially if you read Xenology and its not so veiled refernce to the Starchild theory ;)) still stands, and the latter is from Legion by Abnett.

None of them fit the remit of your original idea, but you might find them interesting.

I like that you're thinking beyond the accepted conventions, hope you can find something that works. (especially like the idea that not all rebels or 'traitors' are chaos lackeys.

ps. apologies for any spelling mistakes and/or bad grammar/syntax, i'd like my first post to be perfect, but i've been up all night writing a dark heresy adventure :p