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Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 12:37
Just a quick one really. Not expecting much in terms of replies, but I was wondering...

When Eldrad met Fulgrim, and realised he was a make up wearing, slaaneshi tainted girly boy, why didn't he MIND WAR!!!!! his ass??

Or, do something? He just ran off.... crying.

Any suggestions or theories?

Cheers.

Nicha11
25-05-2009, 12:42
I assume the last thing an Eldar would try to do is join his mind with someone effectively possesed by Slaanesh.

And Eldrad is a pussy:D

09Project
25-05-2009, 12:43
Would have saved a lot of bother.

Theories that came to mind in the first few seconds.

1- Something to do with the Eldar fascination with letting events run their course, he had a chance to change the future outcomes and failed, Fulgrim's death for some reason would not have changed these outcomes.

2- He knew if he did engage in Mind War he would lose for some reason.

3- He an uptight Eldar and had never had a human say no to him before. It hurt his feelings.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 12:46
So, why didn't he use his uber powers of whatever, and hurl a boulder at him? Or... darth vader his neck? Or... eldritch storm him to oblivion? Makes no sense!

Eldrad isn't a pussy, but he is a dick.

I would think that should have been capable of a Mind war with Fulgrim. I don't think the fact it was a slaaneshi deamon in the sword that put him off. It was something else....

Oh I got it! Lazy GW writing! Thats it! ;)

Lets face it. Eldrad did absolutely nothing during that engagement. Nothing. Why?

EDIT: 09project- I like the first part. Maybe he did know that fulgrims death would have no affect on the outcome, so why send in the Avatar and all the other cronies? The wraithlord was certainly trying to kill Fulgrim. Why didn't Eldrad?

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 12:51
Doing a Mind War on Fulgrim when he is already having a powerful slaaneshi daemon prince is not the smartest thing Eldard could have done. Most likely he would have been mind raped in return.

09Project
25-05-2009, 12:52
He had forseen his own death somehow if he tried. It a good question you raised and I think something similar crossed my mind.

My only explanation is he would have died otherwise. That really the only reason he would have fled the way he did and his survival was key to the further manipulation of the futures and the survival of the Eldar race.

The Waithlord and Avatar I would suggest were buying time for his escape as well, they didn't really come up with much at the end of the day.

I suppose the question to find an answer to, is why he would have died if he had stayed put?



Doing a Mind War on Fulgrim when he is already having a powerful slaaneshi daemon prince is not the smartest thing Eldard could have done. Most likely he would have been mind raped in return.

I think whether Fulgrim was a daemon prince at the point Eldrad met him is arguable.

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 12:53
I suppose the question to find an answer to, is why he would have died if he had stayed put?

Cause Fulgrim would have chopped off his head with a daemon sword?

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 13:01
Well, fulgrim wasn't possessed at that time by the Deamon, was he. The Deamon was in the sword, and was seemingly worried itself, as it desperately urged fulgrim to kill Eldrad on the spot.

Can't a farseer Mind war a deamon on the tabletop? I've no idea, a genuine question.




My only explanation is he would have died otherwise. That really the only reason he would have fled the way he did and his survival was key to the further manipulation of the futures and the survival of the Eldar race.

See, this makes sense.



I think whether Fulgrim was a daemon prince at the point Eldrad met him is arguable. Agreed!

Chaos Undecided
25-05-2009, 13:02
Personally I've always thought that "Mind War" shouldnt be as one sided as the game rules present it to be, engaging a strong opponent in a psychic duel should be as dangerous for the attacker as the target.

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 13:02
Can't a farseer Mind war a deamon on the tabletop? I've no idea, a genuine question.

Technically yes, but I don't see how that could ever work in the fluff, since exposing your mind for daemons is like cutting yourself and then jumping into shark-infested waters.

If we watn to go by game mechanics Mind War would not kill people outright I believe.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 13:04
Personally I've always thought that "Mind War" shouldnt be as one sided as the game rules present it to be, engaging a strong opponent in a psychic duel should be as dangerous for the attacker as the target.

Why though? If a farseer, who's psychic powers have been honed over hundreds of years, possibly the most skilled psykers in the galaxy, decided to turn his considerable skill and ability into mashing your brain, why should you being a dangerous character have any impact upon that?

A mind war is a technique the farseer has mastered and perfected over hundreds of years. The guy he's attacking, regardless of how hard he is, can't surely say the same.


Technically yes, but I don't see how that could ever work in the fluff, since exposing your mind for daemons is like cutting yourself and then jumping into shark-infested waters.



Surely that depends on the ability, skill and power of the exponents in question, though, right?

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 13:06
Why though? If a farseer, who's psychic powers have been honed over hundreds of years, possibly the most skilled psykers in the galaxy, decided to turn his considerable skill and ability into mashing your brain, why should you being a dangerous character have any impact upon that?

A mind war is a technique the farseer has mastered and perfected over hundreds of years. The guy he's attacking, regardless of how hard he is, can't surely say the same.

I would say the Emperor must have desighed the primarch to be resisitant to those attacks, that's why the daemon had to worm it's way in ver slowly with the help of Horus. I mean he was susposed to have used warp energy in the making.

Or the daemon sword could have helped. I always thought that the sword wanted Fulgrim to kill Eldrad before he knew the truth. Not that it mattered. Eldrad was too blunt and ended driving Fulgrim over the edge, nice going Mr. Super-farseer.:rolleyes:




Surely that depends on the ability, skill and power of the exponents in question, though, right?

Eldrad attacking a bog-stranderd daemon grunt, yeah. Eldrad attacking a greater daemon of Slaanesh? He will get eaten.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 13:09
I would say the Emperor must have desighed the primarch to be resisitant to those attacks, that's why the daemon had ot worm it's way in ver slowly with the help of Horus. I mean he was susposed to have used warp energy in the making.

But, half the Primarchs fell to chaos, for one reason or another. Mind war isn't possession, its the total destruction of ones mind, isn't it? I guess it could take many forms. The physical act of the farseer kinetically crushing your brain inside your skull?

Upsetting the electro field of the brain to cause mass trauma, by manipulating the field itself?

I dunoo!



Eldrad attacking a bod-stradard daemon grunt, yeah. Eldrad attacking a greater daemon of Slaanesh? He will get eaten.

Will he? Thats a bold statement. So you've got these imperial psykers who can chop a titan in two, and you're telling me Eldrad, arguably one of the most skilled, and powerful psykers to exist, couldn't do something along those lines, or at least similar to?

I dunoo Crull.

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 13:11
But, half the Primarchs fell to chaos, for one reason or another. Mind war isn't possession, its the total destruction of ones mind, isn't it? I guess it could take many forms. The physical act of the farseer kinetically crushing your brain inside your skull?

Upsetting the electro field of the brain to cause mass trauma, by manipulating the field itself?

I dunoo!

I thought that mind war was mental, hence the term ''Mind''.

Besides half the primarchs fell to chaos not becuase of possesion but many because of personal reasons.

09Project
25-05-2009, 13:12
Fulgrim with no sword would at that point probably been good prey for Eldrad, though a Primarch losing to a mind war would cause outrage.

He wasn't a daemon prince, that was yet to come, the conversation to Slaanesh may have started but he was no follower at that point, I mean took a while for the Primarchs to be raised to daemon status.

What is in that sword then, well depends how you read Fulgrim. Fulgrim himself is basically left to a life of torment at the end as whatever is in that sword takes control. So it must be pretty high on the power scale.

I suppose Fulgrim in the 40k Timeline as opposed the heresy Timeline isn't really Fulgrim, just his possessed body. I would say Fulgrim's story is very different to the other primarchs in this regard.

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 13:15
Will he? Thats a bold statement. So you've got these imperial psykers who can chop a titan in two, and you're telling me Eldrad, arguably one of the most skilled, and powerful psykers to exist, couldn't do something along those lines, or at least similar to?

I dunoo Crull.

Eldar psychic powers are not foucsed towrds that kind of destruction. I was under the pression that thier greatest feats where telling the future and other indirect abilities.

But then again this is Eldrad we are talking about, a guy who thought it was a great idea to go ahead and tell Fulgrim bluntly that Horus was evil instead of for example, lying to Fulgrim and telling him that the forces of chaos where planning to kill Horus and that he should report to the Emperor immidetly or something like that.

But no, now we have daemon-fulgrim.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 13:18
Eldar psychic powers are not foucsed towrds that kind of destruction. I was under the pression that thier greatest feats where telling the future and other indirect abilities.

There's no evidence to suggest an Eldar psyker can't do that kind of thing though. In terms of skill, I believe the Eldar to be the most skilled in the galaxy. Sort of like Albus Dumbledore "He can do things with a wand i've never seen before" (oh err, Mrs!!!)

they can create a storm that can pick up a baneblade and spin it on its back. Thats your average joe blogg Farseer.

I suspect Eldrad was capable of considerably more....




But no, now we have daemon-fulgrim.


Oh right. So its Eldrads fault Fulgrim is weak willed and fell to Chaos? LOL ;)

Ooooooh Khay!

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 13:21
There's no evidence to suggest an Eldar psyker can't do that kind of thing though. In terms of skill, I believe the Eldar to be the most skilled in the galaxy. Sort of like Albus Dumbledore "He can do things with a wand i've never seen before" (oh err, Mrs!!!)

they can create a storm that can pick up a baneblade and spin it on its back. Thats your average joe blogg Farseer.

I suspect Eldrad was capable of considerably more....


Well I've never seen an Eldar farseer do that in the fluff before, but OHHHHH KAAAAAYYYY!!!!:rolleyes:



Oh right. So its Eldrads fault Fulgrim is weak willed and fell to Chaos? LOL ;)
Ooooooh Khay!

No it's Eldrad's fault for not manipulating Fulgrim like Eldar are susposed to do.

09Project
25-05-2009, 13:21
There's no evidence to suggest an Eldar psyker can't do that kind of thing though. In terms of skill, I believe the Eldar to be the most skilled in the galaxy. Sort of like Albus Dumbledore "He can do things with a wand i've never seen before" (oh err, Mrs!!!)

they can create a storm that can pick up a baneblade and spin it on its back. Thats your average joe blogg Farseer.

I suspect Eldrad was capable of considerably more....




Oh right. So its Eldrads fault Fulgrim is weak willed and fell to Chaos? LOL ;)

Ooooooh Khay!

I am tended to agree as I put before, with no daemon sword I think Eldrad could prey on Fulgrim, so any ideas about this sword Rockafella? And how it changes the situation and maybe a bit more depth on the presence within it.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 13:25
I am tended to agree as I put before, with no daemon sword I think Eldrad could prey on Fulgrim, so any ideas about this sword Rockafella? And how it changes the situation and maybe a bit more depth on the presence within it.

Spoilers, i guess.

Well. Its obviously a powerful and cunning entity. And very, very old i believe. I think, in all honestly, when Eldrad became aware of the presence in the sword, he felt panic, and simply ordered Fulgrim to be killed, iirc.

That says a couple of things. One:Eldrad is ruthless when he wants to be. Secondly, he's unaware of how little fulgrim knows or understand of chaos and the entity in the sword.

It seems worried when it becomes aware of Eldrad though, as though Eldrad may expose the entity in the sword.

It has now taken control of Fulgrim completley, and Horus became aware of it, swearing to set his brother free. I guess he had other, more pressing matters to contend with though!

09Project
25-05-2009, 13:30
Whatever is in the sword sure scares the heebiejeebies out of Eldrad, I wonder if the entity had something to do with the fall of the Eldar. About the only warp entities to scare the Eldar like that below the Gods themselves are the ones they have had dealings with in some way or another.

The entity was worried I believe because it hadn't seen this turn of events and it was still in a precarious position with regards to gaining control over Fulgrims body which was its intentions. Any unforseen circumstance in a plan still in motion seems to cause daemons undue worry sometimes.

Obviously the daemon won out and Eldrad saw something new, he found out something, he figured out just what they were up against, maybe the Eldar didn't have a clear idea on what this was before, if he had died there and then as seems to have been a distinct possibility, the Eldar would possibly never have known until it was too late.

His retreat gave them chance to plan for this new turn of events.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 13:37
Well I've never seen an Eldar farseer do that in the fluff before, but OHHHHH KAAAAAYYYY!!!!:rolleyes:



No it's Eldrad's fault for not manipulating Fulgrim like Eldar are susposed to do.

Ok Crull. Keepa rollin dem a big eyes of yours, sweetheart. ;)

Well, blame is the great refuge of the weak, I guess. Blame someone else for your own short comings. Eldrad went above and beyond the call of duty in the first place.

Meeting with a being that inherently hates aliens was a huge risk to take in the first place.

Blaming Eldrad for Fulgrims fall is, well.... fantastically typical, and not a little unfair, I think.


Whatever is in the sword sure scares the heebiejeebies out of Eldrad, I wonder if the entity had something to do with the fall of the Eldar. About the only warp entities to scare the Eldar like that below the Gods themselves are the ones they have had dealings with in some way or another.

The entity was worried I believe because it hadn't seen this turn of events and it was still in a precarious position with regards to gaining control over Fulgrims body which was its intentions. Any unforseen circumstance in a plan still in motion seems to cause daemons undue worry sometimes.

Obviously the daemon won out and Eldrad saw something new, he found out something, he figured out just what they were up against, maybe the Eldar didn't have a clear idea on what this was before, if he had died there and then as seems to have been a distinct possibility, the Eldar would possibly never have known until it was too late.

His retreat gave them chance to plan for this new turn of events.

All sounds good to me. I like this interpretation, it makes sense.

I think i'll leave the thread open a little longer to see if anyone can add to this, and or think of something different to what we already have. Cheers folks!

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 13:48
Ok Crull. Keepa rollin dem a big eyes of yours, sweetheart. ;)

Well, blame is the great refuge of the weak, I guess. Blame someone else for your own short comings. Eldrad went above and beyond the call of duty in the first place.

Meeting with a being that inherently hates aliens was a huge risk to take in the first place.

Blaming Eldrad for Fulgrims fall is, well.... fantastically typical, and not a little unfair, I think.



Just callling it how I see it.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 13:56
Just callling it how I see it.


I've just never heard anyone blame Eldrad before for Fulgrims demise. I just find it, well... an odd thing to say.

Opinions vary. Welcome to warseer, eh.

09Project
25-05-2009, 13:58
Just callling it how I see it.


Fulgrim went down to his destiny by his own hand, he had many chances to force his own will and failed. Which in itself suggests the strength of what he was up against.

Truth is though, Fulgrim failed, and his legion followed the daemon for ever more and all Fulgrim could do was spend eternity looking through the eyes of a body that used to be his at the consquences of that failure. Never being able to put it right or have an effect on the world he saw. Tough luck for the guy, but he only got himself to blame for it end of the day. And when Horus died, well, who else is going to rescue Fulgrim from his fate? Lets face it, Fulgrim's Legion doesn't even know that they are following a daemon not him, and they probably wouldn't care anyway, his brother Primarchs? Don't know and again probably wouldn't care. A reborn Emporer? Maybe Fulgrim's only hope, but even then, that daemon dies Fulgrim likely goes with it.

At least though, it follows 40k general rule of thumb, Fulgrim's only hope is the death of an immortal daemon which would likely kill him.


Good topic by the way Rockafella, enjoyed it :)

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 14:03
I've just never heard anyone blame Eldrad before for Fulgrims demise. I just find it, well... an odd thing to say.

Opinions vary. Welcome to warseer, eh.

Eldrad had a chance to manipulate Fulgrim into preventig the Horus Heresy, he failed.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 14:03
Fulgrim went down to his destiny by his own hand, he had many chances to force his own will and failed. Which in itself suggests the strength of what he was up against.

Truth is though, Fulgrim failed, and his legion followed the daemon for ever more and all Fulgrim could do was spend eternity looking through the eyes of a body that used to be his at the consquences of that failure. Never being able to put it right or have an effect on the world he saw. Tough luck for the guy, but he only got himself to blame for it end of the day. And when Horus died, well, who else is going to rescue Fulgrim from his fate? Lets face it, his Fulgrim's Legion doesn't even know that they are following a daemon not him, and they probably wouldn't care anyway, his brother Primarchs? Don't know and again probably wouldn't care. A reborn Emporer? Maybe Fulgrim's only hope, but even then, that daemon dies Fulgrim likely goes with it.

At least though, it follows 40k general rule of thumb, Fulgrim's only hope is the death of an immortal daemon which would likely kill him.


Good topic by the way Rockafella, enjoyed it :)

In total agreement with all of this. Fulgrims position is a tragic one, really... it is. Whats left of his sanity must surely be shredded by now. If he's simply a passenger in his own body, 10'000 years of torment must be tough.

I believe the deamon still speaks to what is left of Fulgrim though, which is again, teasing and torture in the extreme.

Surely his souls is lost forever?


Eldrad had a chance to manipulate Fulgrim into preventig the Hrous Heresy, he failed.

So he failed to manipulate Fulgrim. Eldrad could probably still sleep at night because he still at least attempted.

It wasn't his fight in the first place. He could have not bothered in the first place, would it still have been Eldrads fault Fulgrim fell? I guess its a lose lose situation for Eldrad in your eyes.

You could go one step further, and claim that the Heresy was Eldrads fault for not trying to warn the Emperor, or horus directly. Damn that meddling Eldrad Uthran!

Is it Magnus' fault Horus fell?

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 14:08
In total agreement with all of this. Fulgrims position is a tragic one, really... it is. Whats left of his sanity must surely be shredded by now. If he's simply a passenger in his own body, 10'000 years of torment must be tough.

I believe the deamon still speaks to what is left of Fulgrim though, which is again, teasing and torture in the extreme.

Surely his souls is lost forever?



I'm not disagreeing with that part.



So he failed to manipulate Fulgrim. Eldrad could probably still sleep at night because he still at least attempted.

It wasn't his fight in the first place. He could have not bothered in the first place, would it still have been Eldrads fault Fulgrim fell? I guess its a lose lose situation for Eldrad.

You could go one step further, and claim that the Heresy was Eldrads fault for not trying to warn the Emperor, or horus directly.

Is it Magnus' fault Horus fell?

He can't sleep at night because with the advent of the Horus Heresy led ot the 13th Black Crusade in which, guess what? Eldrad is dead.

09Project
25-05-2009, 14:11
I think Fulgrim's soul will be pretty much broken into pieces by now. I actually really liked that part of his story line, the tragic failure, was a bit harsh to blind him so much but then show him his 'truth' just when it was too late. A Primarch who was beaten merely by the strength of will of another entity, the daemon totally negated all Fulgrim's strengths and prayed on his weakness. His own vanity and lust. Well worked storyline, it wasn't the usual good guy turns bad, it was good guy gets played and pays for his mistakes with an ultimate price. Rather than death though he got eternity of torment.

I hope maybe the a bit more story comes out about the daemon who now has his physical form, that would be a very interesting back story.



He can't sleep at night because with the advent of the Horus Heresy led ot the 13th Black Crusade in which, guess what? Eldrad is dead.

Not even Eldrad considered himself immortal, his death was always going to happen, instead of falling to Fulgrim's little pet sword which would have been premature, he lived on and as far as the Black Crusade, his death was right for the Eldar in his belief.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 14:18
I'm not disagreeing with that part. Well, you wouldn't, would you. Why am I not suprised? ;)




He can't sleep at night because with the advent of the Horus Heresy led ot the 13th Black Crusade in which, guess what? Eldrad is dead.

Me thinks thou art playing with skeins and fates thou may not understand, Crull.

Eldrad gave himself another 10'000 years. Who else can say that, other than the deamon primarchs and vect? His actions in those 10'000 years saved the craftworlds man, many times over.

And guess what, Eldrad isn't dead, as several of his way stones that he divided his consciousness into are still glowing, all be it dimly. That means, his soul is doing something....




I hope maybe the a bit more story comes out about the daemon who now has his physical form, that would be a very interesting back story.



Would be good to hear about Horus' attempt to save his brother. That would make an interesting story line on its own!

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 14:30
Well, you wouldn't, would you. Why am I not suprised? ;)





Me thinks thou art playing with skeins and fates thou may not understand, Crull.

Eldrad gave himself another 10'000 years. Who else can say that, other than the deamon primarchs and vect? His actions in those 10'000 years saved the craftworlds man, many times over.

And guess what, Eldrad isn't dead, as several of his way stones that he divided his consciousness into are still glowing, all be it dimly. That means, his soul is doing something....



Except it is all for naught, this is Warhammer 40k, at least part of his souls he bing munched on by Slannesh now and eventually the Eldar will fall, the Imperium will fall and everybody will die, The End.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 14:32
Except it is all for naught, this is Warhammer 40k, at least part of his souls he bing munched on by Slannesh now and eventually the Eldar will fall, the Imperium will fall and everybody will die, The End.


Cheers for that Crull. Incredibly constructive. So, should I close the thread now? ;)

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 14:34
Cheers for that Crull. Incredibly constructive. So, should I close the thread now? ;)

This entire thread seems to be like a thinly-viled attempt at saying, ''Look how cool Eldrad is! He can kill a primarch!''

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 14:39
This entire thread seems to be like a thinly-viled attempt at saying, ''Look how cool Eldrad is! He can kill a primarch!''

Mind if I ask how old you are?

if you weren't, well... obsessed with basically putting down everything i've said, then I guess you would realise that's not the intention of the thread at all.

The question was: Why didn't he do something when he had the chance.
So, that being the question, and the answer that I like the best so far being 'because he was scared and wanted to make sure he lived for a little longer', how do you get to the conclusion of '''Look how cool Eldrad is! He can kill a primarch!'', unless you're just wanting to argue, and beat up on someone?

If you don't like the thread, go away and don't post on it anymore. Fair? Yeah.. thats fair.

09Project
25-05-2009, 14:39
This entire thread seems to be like a thinly-viled attempt at saying, ''Look how cool Eldrad is! He can kill a primarch!''

Please do not let this turn into a Primarch fanboi thread, it was a genuniely interesting question at least to me and I am guessing to others as well. Be good if we could keep it to the topic at hand which very much wasn't 'Look how cool Eldrad is'.

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 14:45
Mind if I ask how old you are?



No you may not.:)






if you weren't, well... obsessed with basically putting down everything i've said, then I guess you would realise that's not the intention of the thread at all.

The question was: Why didn't he do something when he had the chance.
So, that being the question, and the answer that I like the best so far being 'because he was scared and wanted to make sure he lived for a little longer', how do you get to the conclusion of '''Look how cool Eldrad is! He can kill a primarch!'', unless you're just wanting to argue, and beat up on someone?

If you don't like the thread, go away and don't post on it anymore. Fair? Yeah.. thats fair.

Since you are an eldar fanboy obviously and reading the OP makes it out to be like that. Even if that was not your intention that is what it seems like to me.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 14:47
Please do not let this turn into a Primarch fanboi thread, it was a genuniely interesting question at least to me and I am guessing to others as well. Be good if we could keep it to the topic at hand which very much wasn't 'Look how cool Eldrad is'.

How about this, back on topic.

Eldrad was simply so shocked to find that Fulgrim, one of the Emperors chosen and greatest warriors, was unaware of the predations of Slaanesh and chaos in general, that he simply reacted purely on instincts?

If Eldrad has been around at the time of the fall, then I guess it spossible he would have memory of the incident that all but destroyed his race. That would upset you, right?

A combination of gripping fear, well.. possibly terror, shock and disbelief probably drove Eldrad to run.


No you may not.:) Ahhh, thought so. You're 14, right? ;)



Since you are an eldar fanboy Correct answer.
obviously and reading the OP makes it out to be like that. Even if that was not your intention that is what it seems like to me. Really? So.. thats another insult from you Crull. They're adding up today son! ;)

Right. So... because i'm an Eldar fanbuoy, and you're whatever you are, then you think its ok to come onto a thread (because its been created by an Eldar fanbuoy) and start causing grief?

How very odd.

Good oh! ;)

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 14:49
How about this, back on topic.

Eldrad was simply so shocked to find that Fulgrim, one of the Emperors chosen and greatest warriors, was unaware of the predations of Slaanesh and chaos in general, that he simply reacted purely on instincts?

If Eldrad has been around at the time of the fall, then I guess it spossible he would have memory of the incident that all but destroyed his race. That would upset you, right?

A combination of gripping fear, well.. possibly terror, shock and disbelief probably drove Eldrad to run.

I agree with that.

Rockerfella
25-05-2009, 14:54
I agree with that.


Of course you do. Cos Eldrad is showing weakness, and is scared, right? Give me a reason you agree with it Crull! I'd like participation here. Analysis, evaluation... not just description.

Cheers.

Lord_Crull
25-05-2009, 14:58
Ahhh, thought so. You're 14, right? ;)


You are incorrect.



Correct answer. Really? So.. thats another insult from you Crull. They're adding up today son! ;)

Right. So... because i'm an Eldar fanbuoy, and you're whatever you are, then you think its ok to come onto a thread (because its been created by an Eldar fanbuoy) and start causing grief?

How very odd.

Good oh! ;)

Your conduct has been atrocious as well, your tone in condescending and you have insulted me as well. You are hardly in a position to talk about respect. You are implying I am immature by making comments about my age.


Of course you do. Cos Eldrad is showing weakness, and is scared, right? Give me a reason you agree with it Crull! I'd like participation here. Analysis, evaluation... not just description.

Cheers.

Why? My word should be enough.

Hellebore
25-05-2009, 15:02
Two things.

Why didn't eldrad see it coming before hand and why did he not notice the daemon sword until a conveniently irreversible point in the story (ie at a point where it would inevitably lead to his entire contingent being destroyed)?

I think the answer lies with Fulgrim being the PC of the story and eldrad being there as a 2D NPC as an excuse to give Fulgrim a full 3 pages of eldar spanking. 3 pages of forshadowing something that a blind dead squirrel turned to manure could have seen.

Unfortunately one might as well ask how 10 space marines shot and killed 3000 dark eldar when, as we know, marines don't hit everything on the first shot so at minimum each marine would have needed to carry 600 rounds each (50% of success is WAY WAY higher than any kind of infantry kill ratio that exists today, astronomically higher).

Because.

Hellebore

Ghal Maraz
25-05-2009, 15:07
Two things.

Why didn't eldrad see it coming before hand and why did he not notice the daemon sword until a conveniently irreversible point in the story (ie at a point where it would inevitably lead to his entire contingent being destroyed)?

I think the answer lies with Fulgrim being the PC of the story and eldrad being there as a 2D NPC as an excuse to give Fulgrim a full 3 pages of eldar spanking. 3 pages of forshadowing something that a blind dead squirrel turned to manure could have seen.

Unfortunately one might as well ask how 10 space marines shot and killed 3000 dark eldar when, as we know, marines don't hit everything on the first shot so at minimum each marine would have needed to carry 600 rounds each (50% of success is WAY WAY higher than any kind of infantry kill ratio that exists today, astronomically higher).

Because.

Hellebore

So, I guess that means the answer I've been thinking about all that time...


Bad writing.

09Project
25-05-2009, 15:24
So, I guess that means the answer I've been thinking about all that time...


Bad writing.

Fulgrim was written to the standard of pretty much 99% of all 40k background, I do wonder, with such a poor quality of writing why some people who seem to read it do. Sometimes the writing isn't great, Faith and Fire being a good example. But more often than not it ok to good to be honest though maybe it doesn't spell things out like some would like, I quite greatful of that. And Fulgrim I thought raised interesting points and questions and was a good addition to 40k Backstory as it opens up other questions to think about.


But that a side point, if you prepared to use a bit of effort and thought you can project good reasons as has already been done in this thread. Pooling information from different areas to fill gaps in the story. And leaving gaps and unexplained events is perfectly good writing craft. Indeed it isn't a gap, you can work it all out from story itself. We can work out from his reaction that there was something that if he'd have known before he wouldn't have tried. We also know Eldrad thought it was worth the risk.

We also know what unknown was in terms of the story at hand and the consquences for Fulgrim.

What is open for projection is more detail about the sword itself. Which is up to people to make up their own minds, the entity is interesting. You have a Primarch who is trapped inside his own body by something and no-one seems to find it interesting what could do that?

Grindgodgrind
25-05-2009, 15:28
Is it possible that despite Eldrad being possibly the greatest Farseer of all time, that he had not seen this particular outcome? Maybe he underestimated just how subtle and seductive Chaos could be, and when he recognised the daemon weapon for what it was, he panicked, as stated previously in this thread?

Surgency
25-05-2009, 16:45
Why didn't eldrad see it coming before hand and why did he not notice the daemon sword until a conveniently irreversible point in the story (ie at a point where it would inevitably lead to his entire contingent being destroyed)?

Tzeentch did it. :angel:




Seriously, though, throughout the HH series, we see hints of the various powers working together. Not directly, but the pure and simple fact that they're all influencing specific legions in small, subtle ways, and not directly combatting each other. We haven't seen much from Khorne, but I suspect that we'll start to see that more with a World Eaters based book. So, can't the master manipulator hide specific things from Eldrads mind until its the appropriate time?

The logical question then would be "well, why did he let Eldrad learn the truth in the first place?" I believe the answer is simple. At that point in time, purposes were fulfilled, and that part of the game had been played. From the point that Eldrad learned that Fulgrim was in possession of a possessed sword, and realized that sword was possessed by a Slaaneshi consciousness, there was nothing further that he could do.

I think that to place the blame on Eldrads shoulders is foolishness, at best, and certainly speaks of Marine/Primarch fanboi-ism. It's Fulgrims fault he fell, for the simple fact that he had such pride in himself that he couldn't see what was happening, and refused to believe that his brother primarchs could possibly be even the slightest bit fallible. Through the Horus Heresy series, we see what is commonly known as the biggest downfall of mankind even today, pride, anger, jealousy, and more, and all these things are leading to destruction, even for loyalists (Ferrus Manus, anyone?)

Idaan
25-05-2009, 19:26
I once saw a video from a LARP convention, in which during a great, final battle of the scenario all the players were slugging it out on a meadow. Suddenly some hobo comes out from the forest and walks into the middle of the fight. LARPers pause for a second and start giving him really awkward looks. He stares back with great consternation. They stand like that for about a minute and then hobo turns back and walks into the forest. The LARPers continue as if nothing happened.
This is basically what I think happened: Eldrad just watched with growing :wtf: as Fulgrim destroyed a Falcon by hitting it with a sword, then punched with bare hands right through Wraithlord's skull and then proceeded to distract the Avatar with world's lamest feint, then choke it and force it to its knees. When Eldrad had enough, he just turned back and wandered into the nearest Webway gate with a really weird face expression.

Poseidal
25-05-2009, 19:41
Well I've never seen an Eldar farseer do that in the fluff before, but OHHHHH KAAAAAYYYY!!!!:rolleyes:


They can do it in game. I know game-stats mean nothing, but Eldritch Storm is in fluff (BL books and whatnot) described as a lot more powerful than the game effects (which are spinning a baneblade and doing... not much else).

Kyrolon
25-05-2009, 19:51
Is it possible that the answer lies in the time frame here? Eldrad's encounter with Fulgrim was 10,000 years earlier than the current timeline. Perhaps he wasn't quite as skilled back then as he is now? I'd like to think he was a powerful farseer at the time, albeit not to the level he became later. In this scenario maybe his encounter with Fulgrim was a sort of "eye opener" for him, and led to his later semi obsession with using humans against chaos in order to stem the tide that began rising during the heresy?

Thoughts?

Idaan
25-05-2009, 19:58
Well, he was already Ulthran, that is "The Foremost of Ulthwe" at that time. Though I'd attribute this to utter lack of imagination on McNeill's part when it comes to creating Pre-Heresy Eldar society.

MetalGecko23
25-05-2009, 20:30
I have always felt that the powerful psykers in 40k are the non-offense ones with the powers of prediction and things like that. So to me Eldrad is very powerful offense isn't what made him top of the food chain.
The way I see it the situation of fighting a Primarch (especially Fulgrim) was lose-lose, Why?
I don't see Fulgrim going down easy if at all (remember Primarchs and space marines are designed to fight against direct attacks including psyhic), if Eldrad fought Fulgrim he would be working on Fulgrims specialty not Eldrads so he had a huge chance of dying,
If Eldrad failed he dies, if he ties Fulgrims mind is weakend and the possessing daemon has less difficulty, if Fulgrim wins he crushs Fulgrims mind and the daemon walks in unopposed.
As you see he had no choice but to flee and leave the battle up to those who could fight Fulgrim with a larger chance of victory.

Then again maybe Eldrad couldn't see Fulgrims fate maybe it was foggy or blocked so thats why he came to him. He saw a window and desperatly tried to make use of it. In the course of the meeting he realised what was blocking his farsight and panicked at the enormity of the situation.

Firaxin
25-05-2009, 20:34
the answer that I like the best so far being 'because he was scared and wanted to make sure he lived for a little longer', how do you get to the conclusion of '''Look how cool Eldrad is! He can kill a primarch!'', unless you're just wanting to argue, and beat up on someone?
Because you haven't even bothered to consider the multiple suggestions that Mind War is actually a two-way battle (ala the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series) and that Eldrad might, in fact, lose. :eek:

Was Eldrad a powerful, well trained and disciplined farseer, possibly from before the time of the fall (I honestly don't know)? Yes. The Fall was less than a thousand years prior, however; when you factor in the couple hundred years it would've taken him to advance to Farseer status, he was probably only the power level of a veteran space marine librarian (ie, not over 9000) at the time of his confrontation with Fulgrim.

Then you have to consider that the Emperor made every Primarch a very powerful warp entity in their own rights--not only are the majority/all of them powerful psykers, but warp energy is imbued in their flesh itself. The only other material capable of that is wraithbone. Eldrad himself says, pg277 of Fulgrim: "whatever dark forces his Emperor employed in the creation of these primarchs renders many of them as little more than spectres in the warp. I cannot read this one, nor anything of his future." Which is strange, considering we know psykers shine particularly brightly in the warp, and Fulgrim expressed psychic powers earlier in the novel. So I don't think you're giving the primarchs the respect they deserve. I have no doubt that he would easily surpass a thousand year old librarian in power with ease.

EVEN IF Eldrad's ability surpassed that of Fulgrim's and the timeless/infinitely old daemon which managed to hide itself from Eldrad (Besides, Fulgrim doesn't even have to be a particularly talented psyker to resist a Mind War attack. Average Joe Commissar has a >50% chance of surviving a Mind War attack from Eldrad's special character himself, does it not?), Mind War does not freeze a person in his tracks, nor is it instantaneous, especially if your opponent resists. Fulgrim was an arm's length away and already swinging his sword before the danger was realized. Eldrad's first practical and logical order of business was to get out of striking range and to a place where he wouldn't be cut down by the Pheonix Guard while he was flaying Fulgrim's mind (Eldrad himself was only protected by a banshee squad and a Wraithlord). But instead of Fulgrim getting entangled in the engagement between the two retinues (which would've given Eldrad a chance to strike), he chases after the Farseer, quickly forcing him to flee into the webway. Fear was certainly part of it--"The Farseer's dark eyes flashed to the blade and his features twisted in an expression of horror and anguish" (pg 292), but you can't ignore the practical necessity of needing to be alive to strike back.

And then, it's not as if Eldrad did nothing. He immediately sent waves of Aspect Warriors and an Avatar itself down to the planet. At this point Eldrad must have thought there was no need for him to go down to the planet. Those forces should have been more than enough for a handful of space marines (except half of them turned out to be assisted by Slaanesh and one was a Slaanesh-assisted Primarch), and I'm sure you will agree an Avatar would be more capable than an average Farseer anyways.

Plus, in all the fluff I've read psyker powers tend to be focused. Not many can do everything. Most specialize in one thing. Eldrad (being of Ulthwe), specializes in prediction, if I'm not mistaken, and thus his offensive powers would be weaker than an Eldar Farseer which did focus on combat oriented powers.

As to the 'why didn't he forsee Fulgrim's corruption,' I'd say it was a combination of the natural protection primarchs are imbued with and Slaanesh hiding him. "The deceits of the Great Enemy had ensnared him with subtle illusions and rendered him blind to its presence. Don't forget the exact same thing was the reason Eldrad is 'dead' (if you want to call him that). He attempted to take a Blackstone Fortress, but Slaanesh managed to hide from him that the Fortress was already possessed. Realising his folly too late, his soul was consumed/sucked into the warp. That happened before Fulgrim was written, so it sets a precedent.

Poseidal
25-05-2009, 20:41
Originally, Mind War was only used on psykers. If successful, the Farseer gains total control of the character for a turn. The roll off was very much in the Farseer's favour (6D6 + power points x D6 vs. power points x D6 only)

It's changed quite a lot, but maybe it explains why Eldrad couldn't Mind War Fulgrim; he was using older rules so could only target psykers.

Arakanis
25-05-2009, 21:54
I find it amusing that people seem to keep suggesting that you could some how turn a Farseers mind war against him. That's ridiculous. Mind war is a very deadly and potent form of psychic warfare that requires likely centuries of training before mastery (Which is what actually having the power represents in the game, total mastery of the skill) and incredible raw power (which, amongst all the mortal races, only the Eldar have.)

It would be like if Abaddon handed YOU, a sword and said, "Let's fight to the death right now"

Your only chance of surviving is running away and hiding. You are not going to be able to fight back and even do any damage. You're not trained, or equipped for any such thing. It's incredibly one-sided. And as for daemons, as far as the game is concerned, Mind War works juuuust find on them. Remember that Eldrad has a Ghosthelm, which pretty much nerfs daemons. (It even used to halve their WS in respect to attacks directed against and taken from a Ghosthelm equipped model)

The reason, I imagine that he did nothing to him, is because later on, he kills Roboute Guilliman. I suspect he was trying to even the playing field. In fact, his attack on him with the Avatar and such, I think was meant to weaken him, subtly, by causing him to draw on the daemon more so. I think he saw a future in which Fulgrim was more in control of himself, and it was not good for the Eldar.

Kozbot
26-05-2009, 01:07
I find it amusing that people seem to keep suggesting that you could some how turn a Farseers mind war against him. That's ridiculous. Mind war is a very deadly and potent form of psychic warfare that requires likely centuries of training before mastery (Which is what actually having the power represents in the game, total mastery of the skill) and incredible raw power (which, amongst all the mortal races, only the Eldar have.)

It would be like if Abaddon handed YOU, a sword and said, "Let's fight to the death right now"

Your only chance of surviving is running away and hiding. You are not going to be able to fight back and even do any damage. You're not trained, or equipped for any such thing. It's incredibly one-sided. And as for daemons, as far as the game is concerned, Mind War works juuuust find on them. Remember that Eldrad has a Ghosthelm, which pretty much nerfs daemons. (It even used to halve their WS in respect to attacks directed against and taken from a Ghosthelm equipped model)

The reason, I imagine that he did nothing to him, is because later on, he kills Roboute Guilliman. I suspect he was trying to even the playing field. In fact, his attack on him with the Avatar and such, I think was meant to weaken him, subtly, by causing him to draw on the daemon more so. I think he saw a future in which Fulgrim was more in control of himself, and it was not good for the Eldar.

If Mind War is that awesome why don't farseers go around exploding heads by the million? Or if they can't target that many people just instantly annhilate the command of any enemy they face?

Hellebore
26-05-2009, 01:17
Mind war is used by farseers that aren't Eldrad. The average farseer isn't 10,000 years old. They'd be ~800 or so.

So long as Eldrad was the same age as any modern farseer with mind war there is no reason he couldn't use it.

Hellebore

Firaxin
26-05-2009, 01:19
I again point to the fact that average joe commissar has a >50% chance of surviving a Mind War attack. It's not that good.

Mind War is like what happens in the Eisenhorn and Ravenor series, the psychic battles between characters in those is exactly how Mind War would operate against a person with psychic powers. The reason this isn't included in the rules is for simplicity's sake.

Master Jeridian
26-05-2009, 01:35
Agreed, it's not a War if only one side fights.

It is a battle of minds, generally an ancient Eldar Farseer will have a stronger one.

But I see nothing 'fanboyish' in thinking that a Primarch is engineered to be highly resilient to psychic attack, the Emperor being a psyker knows psychic powers exist and are corrupting and dangerous.

None of the Primarch's instantly snapped to Chaos, or had their minds ripped open and possesed in seconds- it took Chaos years to slowly, meticulously corrupt and manipulate them. That's how strong their psychic resilience is, even without any proper training or knowledge of psychic resistance.

MetalGecko23
26-05-2009, 01:36
I don't think OP was wondering why Eldrad in is uberness didn't kill Fulgrim with a thought it was why he didn't and what that means.
Let me explain something to the Eldar fanboys posting here.
Eldrad can not, could never and will never be able to beat a Primarch ever. Why you ask, because GW will never allow this. Eldrad could have the power to fart galaxies and impode stars and whatever Primarch he is fighting will overcome with zeal. Plain and simiple Eldrad just can't win, call it GW favoritism but its just how it works.
So start coming up with better reasoning because the part were Eldrad could win in a fight is simiply impossible.
P.S. I like Tau and could careless if Eldrad could beat Fulgrim I'm just stating the obvious.

Rockerfella
26-05-2009, 02:55
I don't think OP was wondering why Eldrad in is uberness didn't kill Fulgrim with a thought it was why he didn't and what that means. Correct answer! ;)
Let me explain something to the Eldar fanboys posting here.

Eldrad can not, could never and will never be able to beat a Primarch ever. True. Absolutely true. But h did whup Abaddon pretty bad, didn't he. ;)
Why you ask, because GW will never allow this. Eldrad could have the power to fart galaxies and impode stars and whatever Primarch he is fighting will overcome with zeal. Which is even worse isn't it. Knowing that, really, fluff wise Eldrad should be capable of some pretty incredible things.
Plain and simiple Eldrad just can't win, call it GW favoritism but its just how it works. Again, quoted for truth.

See, maybe the opening question wasn't posed so well, as Crull seems to think it was some weird attempt to speak of Eldrads uberness. I promise you it was not, with my post count and experience on the forum, i'd like to think i'm beyond such childishness *coughs*

What i'm interested in, is why Eldrad didn't act personally. Why didn't he use his considerable skill in doing something. What does all this mean? Was he just scared? Thats a possibility for me...

This isn't about fanbuoyism, although its quickly becoming about Primarch Fanboyism. :eyebrows:

Grindgodgrind
26-05-2009, 03:02
I think Eldrad could possibly have panicked when he realised what was happening. Perhaps the sudden unveiling of the entity within Fulgrims blade completely threw him, and he then realised that was he had set out to accomplish was impossible.

As previously stated in the thread, Eldard already made mention that is was hard for him to read the Primarchs, so I guess Fulgrims innate psychic ability must have masked the presence of the big bad of the blade...

Treadhead_1st
26-05-2009, 03:51
If I can shove my much-ignored size 11 boot in here, this is just something that crossed my mind reading the topic's first page, so I skimmed the rest:

Why the hang-up on Fulgrim?

A theory I thought of was perhaps the focus is entirely on Ferrus Mannus. The Iron Hands have an obsession with metalwork/"The flesh is weak", close ties with the AdMech and Ferrus debatably fought the Dragon (a C'tan, and possibly corrupted by it - living metal hands).

Perhaps Eldrad saw a future in which Ferrus unwittingly powers up the Necrons to a super-level of technology, or allows them to infiltrate Imperial society and thereby have a massive recruitment-/feeding-ground, to the point the Eldar would be utterly powerless to fight them.

The Necron, being their hated foe and god-ordained for extermination (lest the galaxy be destroyed) cannot be allowed to gain too much power, or even wake (but that's really hard to do with the dwindled Eldar empire, and unfair on the Necron playes). So, it was in the Eldar's (and perhaps the Galaxy's) best interest that Ferrus dies, and Eldrad had seen the future where Fulgrim kills him.

However, Eldrad also saw the issues the Heresey would cause. Perhaps in his scrying (being as unreliable and showing every and no eventualities simultaneously) he saw Fulgrim deliver the deathblow to a manacled, disgraced (by the Emperor) Ferrus. The concourse was held on the theory that Fulgrim could warn the Emperor of both the heresey and the inner-heresey Ferrus may bring about in the future.

Eldrad discovered Fulgrim to be tainted at the meeting, yet realised that Fulgrim was "fated" to kill Ferrus - and so, to prevent a greater evil arising, let Fulgrim live to carry out his nefarious deed?

Anyway, as I say I've been drinking a little, but it struck me as a ery Eldar-esque thing to do (and why to the Eldar really care if humanity is ****ed, it suits their end-goals just fine). I'm not an Eldar fanboy, far from it (more verging on Imperial fanboy), but I thought I'd share an impartial, not-yet-covered perspective that will (hopefully) generate a little more discussion.

Lexington
26-05-2009, 05:44
Since when was Eldrad old enough to have fought pre-fall Fulgrim?

Hellebore
26-05-2009, 05:57
Well the fall happened ~29th millennium and Fulgrim was only around for ~200 years in the 31st Millennium so it was post fall Fulgrim.

There was a single piece of colour text in a previous codex that has an eldar ranger telling their interrogator that Eldrad had tried to warn their corpse god but they failed to heed blah blah mon keigh suck blah blah etc.

It seems they've decided to take that line literally and have eldrad be over 10,000 years old...

hellebore

Arakanis
26-05-2009, 06:37
If Mind War is that awesome why don't farseers go around exploding heads by the million? Or if they can't target that many people just instantly annhilate the command of any enemy they face?

Same Reason Abbaddon doesn't go around killing imperial citizenry personally. He has minions for that. Besides, Farseers have more to do than just brain-sploding people. Gotta cast fortune, doom and guide, you know. Seriously though, find me an instance in any fluff ever, in which a Farseer Mind Wars a non-farseer and that person defeats them with thier bulging brain/psychic powers.

Firaxin
26-05-2009, 06:58
Yes, now that I think about it. In Lords of the Night.
Talon Master Zso Sahaal charges a Farseer right at the very end. It attempts to kill Sahaal via Mind War. Using his bulging brain, he overcomes it and skewers that filthy xenos scum. Admittedly, this wasn't a case of of the Farseer losing the Mind War and having his brain/soul flayed in return, but then again Sahaal wasn't a psyker.
Not much is written about the Eldar. I challenge you to find a case in the fluff where a Farseer wins a Mind War as easily as you suggest they should. Not over Joe Guardsmen, but over someone who's brain/psychic ability comes even somewhat close to a Primarch's.

I postulate, again, that in his ~800 years after ascending to Farseer before meeting Fulgrim, Eldrad would not have had much experience honing his Mind War abilities to unstoppable levels. At this point in his life he is no more exceptional than any other Farseer, other than that he has a name.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure a Mind War occurs between a human and an Eldar in either the Eisenhorn or the Ravenor series. I'll have to skim through those again.

Rockerfella
26-05-2009, 07:14
Yes, now that I think about it. In Lords of the Night.
Talon Master Zso Sahaal charges a Farseer right at the very end. It attempts to kill Sahaal via Mind War. Using his bulging brain, he overcomes it and skewers that filthy xenos scum. Admittedly, this wasn't a case of of the Farseer losing the Mind War and having his brain/soul flayed in return, but then again Sahaal wasn't a psyker.
Not much is written about the Eldar. I challenge you to find a case in the fluff where a Farseer wins a Mind War as easily as you suggest they should. Not over Joe Guardsmen, but over someone who's brain/psychic ability comes even somewhat close to a Primarch's.

I postulate, again, that in his ~800 years after ascending to Farseer before meeting Fulgrim, Eldrad would not have had much experience honing his Mind War abilities to unstoppable levels. At this point in his life he is no more exceptional than any other Farseer, other than that he has a name.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure a Mind War occurs between a human and an Eldar in either the Eisenhorn or the Ravenor series. I'll have to skim through those again.

How do you even know that was Mind war? I'll be honest, when i read that book, it came across as far more like 'Star Wars Emperor' lighting from fingers stuff.

I think you're just having a good ole stab there. ;)

it just makes no sense for any average, run of the mill anyone to be able to resist a mind war. This is a skill and tehnique that a farseer learns and develops over centuries.

Someone who has no idea what he's doing can't just 'return fire!' and melt the farseers brain. Thats why in the game, the farseer can't get hurt, iirc.

Cheers!

Hellebore
26-05-2009, 07:21
The closest mind war equivalent in the game that wasn't used by an eldar was the one the rogue psyker in the witchhunters book has. In that he CAN get hurt from psychic feedback.

A farseer's mindwar though is a one way attack, it either hurts the target or does nothing. There is no chance of feedback.

Hellebore

MetalGecko23
26-05-2009, 07:32
Can we get off the, "how powerful mind war is", stuff. It is utterly pointless in duscussing how powerful mind war is for this discussion.

I have a few questions to add though.
What the hell was Eldrad hoping to do by using Fulgrim to warn the Emperor? If he knew that the heresy was going to happen and he knew who was going to betray the Emperor. Why didn't he know who else betrays with Horus? And did he know who was going to win? Furthermore if the Emperor was warned in time and he kept more of his primarchs inline and won the war with out getting hurt, wouldn't that mean the extinction of the Eldar? Is Eldrad a member of the Cabal? Or was he doing his own thing and knew what the Emperor was up to and was willing to sacrifice his race (to fix their mistake, unlike the Cabal) to defeat Chaos?

Idaan
26-05-2009, 10:10
He was hoping that in order to be easily bitch-slapped by Fulgrim, providing a background for his awesomeness. You could switch him for any pre-scient character from any race and it wouldn't change a thing. He was just a cardboard, stock character at that point.
Furthermore it doesn't make any sense for him to be the most powerful Farseer of Ulthwe at that point because he'd have to be already thousands of years old. Not to mention Path (and whole Eldar society) being developed post-Fall, 300 years before the Heresy and yet somehow being identical to what we see in M41. Terrible lack of imagination.

Regarding Cabal:
He wasn't with the Cabal as he probably saw that destroying Humanity would cause another race to rise in its place of galactic dominion and feed the Chaos Gods just as well.
Cabal was short-sighted if anything: Chaos isn't exclusively tied to Mankind, of which Slaanesh is the best proof. That's Slau-Dha was the only Eldar in the Cabal: he wasn't representing the interests of Eldar-kind as a whole.

Askari
26-05-2009, 10:34
Someone who has no idea what he's doing can't just 'return fire!' and melt the farseers brain. Thats why in the game, the farseer can't get hurt, iirc.

Cheers!

Irrelevant anyway, it doesn't matter that Eldrad would not recieve feedback... maybe he just wasn't strong enough to destroy Fulgrim (like Firaxin's already said, represented in game by Mind War being able to fail even against normal people). Fulgrim wouldn't need to fight back per se, just mentally brace himself.

Back to just general thread thoughts:

Saying Eldrad was to blame for failing is a bit much, but he didn't really go about it in typical Eldar way, and he did prove humanity to be a stubborn race (the Emperor and Fulgrim completely ignoring his warnings).

Maybe Eldrad was frightened by the Daemon in the sword, undoubtedly he didn't expect that to appear in the meeting. As shown by his "capture" by Slaanesh on the Blackstone, even Eldrad doesn't know everything that will happen. Maybe on realizing the Daemon he saw his timing was off and he was too late. Whatever the reason, risking his life on that planet trying to halt one Primarchs descent into Chaos would not have benefited Eldar society, or his cause against Chaos.

On the Cabal: Slau-Dha was also an Autarch I believe, so his insight would be generally less sensible perhaps than a Farseer's.

ryng_sting
26-05-2009, 11:37
A simpler answer: 'because the story would have finished half way into the book'.

Sureshot05
26-05-2009, 13:53
Great topic with lots of interesting ideas and interpretations. Here are a few of my own personal thoughts on the matter.

For me, one of the key issues I would like to add in is the blind spot that several psykers seem to exhibit in there dealing with fate and their personal futures. The Emperor is famous for having not seen the fall of half the legions in advance, some intepretations of Eldrad's final moments indicate that he did not see the trap laid open for him, Magnus's story is often connected with this idea and it certainly appears in my opinion that this occurs for all/most pyskers in their failures.

Perhaps it is more an issue for those who are searching the future. The futures that are predicted appear to contain many traps hidden to the person predicting. Instead, they they can see the many paths, but hidden along these paths are potholes with nasty surprises which they have to deal with and overcome.

For me such an argument helps not only explain the many issues outlined in my first paragraph, but also helps explain what makes Eldrad truly one of the most powerful pyskers to have ever lived. It is not just because of his amazing psychic powers (TM) but more to do with the fact that unlike many others, when those powers have failed him, he has still survived and been able to recover enough to continue along the journey and he has done it for over 10,000 years. That to me would definitely make him the most powerful psyker to have existed compared to all the big names previously mentioned.

To take the particular incident in question (apart from the GW won't let the Eldar win which for now, lets leave aside) the idea that the hidden pothole to both the sword daemon and Eldrad's future predictions was each others presence is an intriguing part of the argument for why Eldrad may not have been willing to engage in open psychic combat. This may well give an indication of the level of the power of the sword (wild speculation, but hey) or maybe give a better understanding of what causes these blind spots.

Secondly, on a more practical note, wielding high power psychic combat around a daemon of Slaanesh may well have been enough to draw more attention of She who thirsts, which could have exasperated the situation much further. We already know that the Chaos gods at this time were capable of daemonic incusions (plaguebears in the second book) so there is no reason to believe that the risk of drawing Slaanesh's minions out at this time is not something that Eldrad is actively considering.

(Bloody hell, that was a lot longer than intended...)

Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo
26-05-2009, 14:31
Arakanis got it half right, Fulgrim is there to kill Guilliman, but not to make the playing field even, but to introduce Calgar and tell the story of his heroic defense against the nids (who are supposed to swallow up the galaxy) and make him the space saving hero, yes saving all, even those he hated (like... xenos scums?), which make him an all loving knows the priority blah blah blah uber hero of all time.

I am really serious about this.

Yes I suck in making jokes. Back to the topic, as a post-revisionist person I always like to add other people's ideas into mine -

Eldrad flees the field due to several reasons:
1) He is not as skilled as many people have thought in mind waring (or in someone's eyes 'mind raping'), as mentioned before, Eldrad's focus was on prediction, his specialty was not in blowing people's head off with psychic power, especially when
2) Being a Primarch, Fulgrim would not be killed just by a psychic blast, as mentioned, being a son of the Emperor he would be designed to resist such attacks, and by that time not only the Big E, but
3) We've got a follower of something (can you call a Chaos God 'someone'?)who nearly destroyed the Eldar society all together right beside the Primarch.

Be it a one way strike or a battle, mind waring Fulgrim might not neccessarily kill him instantly, and that means there is a chance for Fulgrim to kill him back, physically, like chopping his head off with a sword.

These are a simple analysis on the surface of the question. The following are much 'deeper' in a sense, which is rather 'original' from me -

4) As mentioned (again), there are cases of psykers who failed to see the future, which means that there are chances that Eldrad wouldn't know what would turn out, most of the time on the person himself, along with
5) The pessage mentioning explicitly that Eldrad could not see Fulgrim's future, rather it's due to the Primarch's own psychic power or with the help of Chaos

As a final conclusion of mine, I believed that Eldrad ran in fear, but not fear in being killed, or twisting the nature or outcome, but the simple fear of the unknown. He knows nothing of the future at that moment, he doesn't know what would turn out if he kills Fulgrim, or would he even successfully do so. Do not forget prediction is supposed to be his strongest asset, and now he failed to even see what would turn out in 5 minutes. Be it due to chaos power, the Primarch, or the 'rule of prediction' where most of the time you don't know your own fate, the inability to foresee what would happened frightened him, and the only thing he can do under such unknown circumstances is, like any animals or human beings would do, run.

P.S. Apologies for any bad English in the pessage, it's not my mother tongue, hope it doesn't cause any confusion of what I have said

NightrawenII
26-05-2009, 18:49
Great topic with lots of interesting ideas and interpretations. Here are a few of my own personal thoughts on the matter.

For me, one of the key issues I would like to add in is the blind spot that several psykers seem to exhibit in there dealing with fate and their personal futures. The Emperor is famous for having not seen the fall of half the legions in advance, some intepretations of Eldrad's final moments indicate that he did not see the trap laid open for him, Magnus's story is often connected with this idea and it certainly appears in my opinion that this occurs for all/most pyskers in their failures.

Perhaps it is more an issue for those who are searching the future. The futures that are predicted appear to contain many traps hidden to the person predicting. Instead, they they can see the many paths, but hidden along these paths are potholes with nasty surprises which they have to deal with and overcome.

For me such an argument helps not only explain the many issues outlined in my first paragraph, but also helps explain what makes Eldrad truly one of the most powerful pyskers to have ever lived. It is not just because of his amazing psychic powers (TM) but more to do with the fact that unlike many others, when those powers have failed him, he has still survived and been able to recover enough to continue along the journey and he has done it for over 10,000 years. That to me would definitely make him the most powerful psyker to have existed compared to all the big names previously mentioned.

To take the particular incident in question (apart from the GW won't let the Eldar win which for now, lets leave aside) the idea that the hidden pothole to both the sword daemon and Eldrad's future predictions was each others presence is an intriguing part of the argument for why Eldrad may not have been willing to engage in open psychic combat. This may well give an indication of the level of the power of the sword (wild speculation, but hey) or maybe give a better understanding of what causes these blind spots.

Secondly, on a more practical note, wielding high power psychic combat around a daemon of Slaanesh may well have been enough to draw more attention of She who thirsts, which could have exasperated the situation much further. We already know that the Chaos gods at this time were capable of daemonic incusions (plaguebears in the second book) so there is no reason to believe that the risk of drawing Slaanesh's minions out at this time is not something that Eldrad is actively considering.

(Bloody hell, that was a lot longer than intended...)

Well, to be honest from all the examples we know, Im pretty sure the psykers cannot predict their own fate.
They can see the fates of others but when it come to their own, they simply see a deep black with only blinks of their interaction with others. So probably Emperor dont seen Heresy because it was closely tied to his own fate, the same with Doom of Magnus and final death of Eldrad.

Rockerfella
26-05-2009, 22:22
Well, to be honest from all the examples we know, Im pretty sure the psykers cannot predict their own fate.
They can see the fates of others but when it come to their own, they simply see a deep black with only blinks of their interaction with others. So probably Emperor dont seen Heresy because it was closely tied to his own fate, the same with Doom of Magnus and final death of Eldrad.

Hence the term, Shadowpoint, right? That point where the seer can't 'see', as it were. The emperor had it, Eldrad had it, even the Avatar in Shadowpoint has it (and the book describes the Avatars psychic ability as above and beyond that of any of his 'children'.)

For me, I think Eldrad probably was strong enough to have had a pop at fulgrim (in terms of psychic skill and power, not combat and arm wrestling, of course...) but didn't because he was scared, knew the deamons presence was too risky and so decided to 'leg it!', as it were. A wise decision, i feel. I think he may have simply bottled it.

Also, not sure where this stuff comes from that Eldar psykers aren't able to use offensive strikes and are only any good at seeing the future. To me, thats just daft. I'm sure they are described in rulebooks of the past as having the most 'powerful battlefield psykers' in the galaxy, blah blah blah.

If they were only ever good at seeing the future, then they wouldn't be able to flip tanks with a thought and squash your head with a twist of the eyebrow.

Anyways, that aside, for me, and backing up what others have said, I guess the Eldrad of then wasn't nearly as powerful as he later became. In fact, i'm pretty sure it says that in his section of the codex. 'Over time, Eldrad became incredibly powerful' type of thing.

So, I suppose, going back on my first statement in this post, it could be that Eldrad just didn't have the skill or power back then to squash primarchs brains! Ooooh, i'm confused!

EDIT: Can I just say as well, that I don't start many threads or topics, so thanks to all who have taken part! Much obliged!

Firaxin
26-05-2009, 22:40
Also, not sure where this stuff comes from that Eldar psykers aren't able to use offensive strikes and are only any good at seeing the future. To me, thats just daft. I'm sure they are described in rulebooks of the past as having the most 'powerful battlefield psykers' in the galaxy, blah blah blah.

If they were only ever good at seeing the future, then they wouldn't be able to flip tanks with a thought and squash your head with a twist of the eyebrow.
I agree with you that Eldar psykers should be able to do some pretty awesome offensive/attacky-stuff. I think the people who were saying that meant Eldrad in particular, at this time in his life, would not be that good at attacky-stuff as he in particular was focused on far-seeing. Not that Eldar as a whole focus on far-seeing.


EDIT: Can I just say as well, that I don't start many threads or topics, so thanks to all who have taken part! Much obliged!
No problem. It was fun! :D This is the first time there's been a discussion about that scene which wasn't focused on why an Avatar is susceptible to choking. ;)

MetalGecko23
26-05-2009, 23:44
You know I haven't seen a whole lot of fluff on how powerful Eldrad is? Is all this 2nd ed. or 3rd-4th cuz I've read those and it says little on how powerful of a psyhic fighter he is.
Problem is we are pulling fluff from several sources some newer some older and just choosing to keep the good stuff from each...which I suspect makes any character more powerful than they really are.
Just looking at the 4th ed. codex. It states that Eldrad would become powerful long after the HH. As the statement that he becomes powerful is after a battle with Chaos marines. So its fair to say he wasn't that powerful when he met Fulgrim. Or you could pull 20+ years worth of fluff from contradicting sources to prove me wrong.

Rockerfella
27-05-2009, 08:04
So its fair to say he wasn't that powerful when he met Fulgrim. Or you could pull 20+ years worth of fluff from contradicting sources to prove me wrong.

I said that there though.. look, up there..... ~~~^^^^~~~ So I agree with you good sir. Its not about proving people wrong, though, and I still think Eldrad, who could have been 1000 years old at that point, we don't know, was capable of attacking fulgrim using psychic powers.
I just don't see why if an average farseer using eldritch storm can make tanks flip, there is no reason Eldrad couldn't have done something.

Just because we dont hear about a farseers offensive psyker powers much, it dosen't mean it dosen't happen.

SPOILER

This may sound lame, but Auric Stormcloud, or whatever his name is, creates a powerful twister in a large underground facility that sucks up chaos warp energy and hurls it hundreds of metres up a huge elevator shaft to stop it affecting the humans and soldiers with him. He also hurls bolts of other stuff at the deamon, if memory serves.

So, it can be done. The more interesting part is why he didn't. As some people said, did he see some future where he knew he couldn't die? Did he just brick it and run to the hills faced with an angry Primarch? Or was he more worried about the deamon of Slaanesh than fulgrim? I think the latter is probably true. I dunoo!

Lordmonkey
27-05-2009, 08:26
But, half the Primarchs fell to chaos, for one reason or another. Mind war isn't possession, its the total destruction of ones mind, isn't it? I guess it could take many forms. The physical act of the farseer kinetically crushing your brain inside your skull?

It's a battle of wills...

Eldrad: "Die!"
Fulgrim: "No!"
Eldrad: "DIE!"
Fulgrim: "NO!"

Whereas, in the case of a guardsman...

Eldrad: "Die!"
Bob The Guardsman: "Um. What?"
Eldrad: "Die. There'll be cake."
Bob The Guardsman: "Yay!"

I imagine that a Daemon Prince is way too sure of itself to fall foul of Eldar tricks.

Rockerfella
27-05-2009, 16:35
It's a battle of wills...

Eldrad: "Die!"
Fulgrim: "No!"
Eldrad: "DIE!"
Fulgrim: "NO!"

Whereas, in the case of a guardsman...

Eldrad: "Die!"
Bob The Guardsman: "Um. What?"
Eldrad: "Die. There'll be cake."
Bob The Guardsman: "Yay!"

I imagine that a Daemon Prince is way too sure of itself to fall foul of Eldar tricks.

Is that literally how you think it might happen? Sort of mind games and tricking the guy right there on the spot?

I mean, doesn't a Farseer in one of the Imperial guard books create an entire vision of their home planet in their heads so they fight harder, or something? the tanith so and so's?

Not read it, as you can tell. But that takes some impressive 'skulduggery' to pull that kind of subterfuge off!

thearchiver
28-05-2009, 00:58
Or because winning a mind war ie shattering someones mind, when there is a deamon sitting right to them planing to possess them would a very bad thing to do.

Firaxin
28-05-2009, 04:05
Thearchiver has a good point. If Eldrad had successfully mind warred Fulgrim, the daemon would have possessed him right there and things would be even worse.

nightgant98c
29-05-2009, 18:38
Maybe one possibility Eldrad had forseen was that Fulgrim had fallen to Slaanesh, and he was doing what his vision had told him to in that circumstance. Perhaps fear had nothing to do with it.

stormblade
29-05-2009, 19:43
It's a battle of wills...

Eldrad: "Die!"
Fulgrim: "No!"
Eldrad: "DIE!"
Fulgrim: "NO!"

Whereas, in the case of a guardsman...

Eldrad: "Die!"
Bob The Guardsman: "Um. What?"
Eldrad: "Die. There'll be cake."
Bob The Guardsman: "Yay!"

I imagine that a Daemon Prince is way too sure of itself to fall foul of Eldar tricks.


And this is why eldar are evil- there is no cake, the cake is a lie and they know it.

Purge the Xenos!

OT:

My guess is that mind war isn't simple as 'I bashzz you skulz from inside' tactic and simply had a good chance of backfiring(especially with the daemon and all).

It is called a mind war and not a mind bash for a reason- it should be neither safe nor fool-proof.

Burning Blood
29-05-2009, 21:22
Why the hang-up on Fulgrim?

A theory I thought of was perhaps the focus is entirely on Ferrus Mannus. The Iron Hands have an obsession with metalwork/"The flesh is weak", close ties with the AdMech and Ferrus debatably fought the Dragon (a C'tan, and possibly corrupted by it - living metal hands).

Perhaps Eldrad saw a future in which Ferrus unwittingly powers up the Necrons to a super-level of technology, or allows them to infiltrate Imperial society and thereby have a massive recruitment-/feeding-ground, to the point the Eldar would be utterly powerless to fight them.

That is actually a really, really interesting idea. :)

But if Eldrad wanted Fulgrim to kill Ferrus Manus, why order his soldiers to attack and kill him? I mean, he summoned a freaking Avatar in his attempt to get the job done. Seems a little strange if he wanted Fulgrim to live.

Idaan
29-05-2009, 21:54
Ferrus didn't fight the Dragon (who was on Mars at that time) or any other C'tan. He could have fought some Necron tomb warden or something, but I don't know why everything has to be connected to one of 12 tabletop races.

Chaplain of Chaos
29-05-2009, 22:06
There isn't any reason for us to believe that Fulgrim would lose a Mind War to Eldrad, and perhaps the sword could have helped him thus exposing Eldrads mind to machinations of a warp demons.

I also agree that Mind War should not be as one sided as it is. Heck, eldar psykers are still vulnerable to the perils of the warp.

Another option is that for some reason the survival of the Eldar depended on Fulgrim and Eldrad had no desire to kill him.

Treadhead_1st
29-05-2009, 23:54
That is actually a really, really interesting idea. :)

But if Eldrad wanted Fulgrim to kill Ferrus Manus, why order his soldiers to attack and kill him? I mean, he summoned a freaking Avatar in his attempt to get the job done. Seems a little strange if he wanted Fulgrim to live.

Hmm...

Perhaps when he realised there was a potent Daemon in Fulgrim (an avater of the races most hated foe) he decided things might be better if Fulgrim was dead after all (or let his hatred get the better of him - he is from Ulthwe, and they strike me as being slightly more hasty than other craftworlds).

And YAY! someone read my post.

@Idaan - well, he fights a big, shiny wyrm (Dragons are also known as wyrms) made of some sort of living metal, and the metal was then transfered to a bloke who despised the weakness of human flesh.

The Necron, despising the weakness of their flesh, created living metal bodies for themselves. And have a big, shiny wyrm as one of their overlord-gods.

Sounds a bit co-incidental (same material from a beings suspiciously similar with similar mind-sets) if it's not supposed to be anything Necron-based.

Burning Blood
30-05-2009, 00:18
The Necron, despising the weakness of their flesh, created living metal bodies for themselves. And have a big, shiny wyrm as one of their overlord-gods.

I assume you mean the Void Dragon? If so, has it ever been stated what it looks like? It seems logical to think of it as we think of a dragon, but who knows what it could be.

Idaan
30-05-2009, 09:38
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Red_Dragon_Paintings
Obviously ;)

nightgant98c
31-05-2009, 06:07
I also agree that Mind War should not be as one sided as it is.

I think it's a misnamed power. It should be more like mind strike, or mind assault. Something that implies a one sided hit and run type attack.

Arakanis
31-05-2009, 07:03
I think it's a misnamed power. It should be more like mind strike, or mind assault. Something that implies a one sided hit and run type attack.

I do seem to recall in 2nd Edition it was something like, you roll 4D6+ nD6 with n=Force Cards used for the power. All 6s would cause a wound. So it was anywhere from 5D6 to 7D6. If you were a psyker though, it was actually worse. You would be forced to discard your psychic cards for every 6 rolled instead of taking a wound, and if you couldn't you would take D3 wounds and lose all your powers.

Rockerfella
31-05-2009, 12:10
I think it's a misnamed power. It should be more like mind strike, or mind assault. Something that implies a one sided hit and run type attack.
Yeah, i'd go with that. Although, there is no danger to the Farseer administering the power, so it shouldn't be a mind war for that reason, not because there is a danger to the farseer. Cos, there isn't.

I mean, a war indicates that there is danger on both sides, and quite simply, there isn't. Either the farseer crushes your brain, or he doesn't. Either way, he's gonna be ok.

Poseidal
31-05-2009, 12:29
I think it goes back to first edition. Then, the Farseer and the target 'fought' when he initiated the War.

Though back then, it was still one sided. If the Farseer lost, nothing happens; if the target lost, the Farseer gains control of him...

FarseerMatt
31-05-2009, 14:11
My thoughts on Mind War:

Against a non-psychic/low Ld target, it's probably just the Farseer glancing across the battlefield and bursting a blood vessel in the target's brain with a quick stab of biomancy.

Against a psyker I imagine a duel similar to the ones described in Ravenor (ie both combatants "go bodyless" and duke it out). Now this could be more dangerous to the Farseer as a psyker could strike back, or a character with Heroic Willpower (TM) might be able to kick the Farseer out of his mind with enough force to cause some feedback damage. However, most (if not all) major Eldar powers are initiated by channelling runes, and they're designed to break the Eldar's link to the warp if unsafe amounts of power flow through them, ie if he tries to draw on too much power, or a daemon tries to surge back through into his mind. I'm thinking the psychic feedback of another psyker striking back at the Farseer's mind would cause the link to break, thereby protecting the Farseer even if the other psyker tries to snare him and stop him from retreating from the duel. Might not always work that way though.

Gue'Vesa'Vre Kilo
01-06-2009, 06:27
I think it goes back to first edition. Then, the Farseer and the target 'fought' when he initiated the War.

Though back then, it was still one sided. If the Farseer lost, nothing happens; if the target lost, the Farseer gains control of him...

Okay, take it as a one sided strike, but you've made another point, if the farseer lost, nothing happens (to the attacked's mind), which means there is a possibility that Fulgrim strikes back, not with psychic power, but simply with the sword in his hand.

The possibility of Eldrad being kill physically should also be considered.