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scottb
06-05-2005, 23:11
Look what I came across on the net:

snifdog miniatures (http://marketon.pl/snifdog/index.php?m=dir&id_dir=1223)

wonder how long GW legal with take to do something.

Getz
06-05-2005, 23:16
Interesting.

I tried to find if there was some kind of endorsment because it would be very unusal for a comapny to use the same names for their products as GW.

I suspect that this may actually be licenced.

Sgt John Keel
06-05-2005, 23:19
Interesting. [Edit: stupid simultaneous posting :D ]

They are cheap enough though.

/Adrian

Minister
06-05-2005, 23:23
But the models are baaaad.

Gregorus
06-05-2005, 23:27
not only it's a ripoff, but it's also bad quality ripoff... they are even using names suspiciously similar to the GW/FW ones... oh, and don't that heavy machine guns resemble something?

and now, when that site has been posted here, they are soo screwed...

scopedog91
07-05-2005, 00:29
Gonna be interested in this going on...

panda
07-05-2005, 01:47
It's like they've written an open invitation to be screwed by GW.... "Hi, we're blatantly ripping off your products. Please sue us within an inch of our lives and destroy us. Many thanks, Snifdog."

And what the hell sort of name is that anyway? They deserve it just for that name....

Getz
07-05-2005, 02:09
It's like they've written an open invitation to be screwed by GW.... "Hi, we're blatantly ripping off your products. Please sue us within an inch of our lives and destroy us. Many thanks, Snifdog."

That's why I think it may be possible that they're licenced.

t-tauri
07-05-2005, 05:13
That's why I think it may be possible that they're licenced.
If they were licenced GW copyright info would be all over the pages. GW already has Forgeworld to do resin models. They pulled the plug on armorcast who had a similar licence to produce resin vehicles. No way would they grant anyone a licence to produce resin vehicles. Especially resin vehicles that subtly different from the originals and direct copies of tanks already produced by Forgeworld.

These are copies relying on the lax attitude of most of the former eastern block to copyright. It looks like a Polish site and since Poland is IIRC part of the EU now then I'm sure GW legal will be contacting a Polish legal firm to nuke these people from orbit.

Darius Rhiannon
07-05-2005, 08:39
Can you say Exterminatus Now...

Edit: Their terrain does seem nice as well as some of their scenic bases.

Is there any chance that this is simply single copies of models being sold? Can't read polish...

Edit 2: Seems there is an Enlish page.

These people are surely going to get a *nice* letter soon...

worldshatterer
07-05-2005, 09:33
I really doubt they're liscensed, as they're shady eastern european company the worst that'll happen to them is they'll disappear for a few weeks and then come back with a new website .

Most of their prices are not cheap enough to justify getting a lower quality unoffical product made out of a less durable substance . the leman russ equivalents still cost £18+shipping so they'll probably end up more expensive . The only bargains i see are the twin-hb turret for the chimera[£4] and the baneblade[£60].

edit
eek, and the drop pod which is only around £22, which is a bargain . also its the only company other than forgeworld that does technological drop pods afaik.

Jonathan =I=
07-05-2005, 13:20
Hmm Im tempted to get a few drop pods from them. Maby the Bane blade as well.

Im still upset that I didnt get a Titan from dream forge when I had the chance.

Delicious Soy
07-05-2005, 13:27
They make some cool looking scenery by the looks of it.

Jonathan =I=
07-05-2005, 13:40
Nice bases as well. Imagine one of those "super Heavy Tanks" used as wrecked scenery!

What size do you think the "super heavy tank" is (Bane blade size?)

Killgore
07-05-2005, 18:17
I'm more interested in the drop pods, how much monies in Pounds do these cost?

t-tauri
07-05-2005, 18:38
The problems with buying from a company which counterfeits goods and is probably going to be sued back into the stone age if the Polish legal system allows should be obvious.

worldshatterer
07-05-2005, 18:41
http://marketon.pl/snifdog/index.php?m=page&l=uk

try looking at it in broken english. also gives price in dollars, then just use www.xe.com to find out how much things are exactly in pounds. I've already stated that the drop pod is around about £22 .

The Judge
07-05-2005, 20:55
It doesn't really look that good at all, even the drop pod. I'd prefer to pay with my soul to Forgeworld than buy these untrustworthy products...

worldshatterer
07-05-2005, 22:46
Speaking of dreamforge, does anyone know whats happening with them? As they don't seem to be making the leviathans anymore and their rules system seems stuck in limbo.

Delicious Soy
08-05-2005, 01:33
I'm skeptical as to wether you'd ever see what you paid for. It smells of fraud to me.

Baggers
08-05-2005, 08:54
Hum at first I thought they were just selling Forgeworld stuff of at cheaper prices, which is nothing wrong and they cant be sued. But on closer inspection I can see the differences. Now do I buy a Baneblade from there or not.

Barbarossa
08-05-2005, 12:58
I'm tempted to buy me a Baneblade. Doesn't look to bad.

salty
08-05-2005, 13:01
You and me both Barbarossa, though those turrets above the sponsons look a bit flimsy...

Salty :)

Zechs
08-05-2005, 13:27
But the overall look of of the modell is good, not like their Russes! I think I'm going to buy a couple of their round bases, the cracked ground looks good.

oatish
08-05-2005, 23:36
Their bases are pretty cool but otherwise, they seem to be of low quality and I wouldn't want to send 'em my money. And I would not want this to paint the picture that we like knock-off miniatures. 'Cause we don't, right?

oatish

Barbarossa
09-05-2005, 04:44
Yes we do. But only if it's CHEAP knock-offs. ;-)

Hortwerth
09-05-2005, 05:10
Their bases are pretty cool but otherwise, they seem to be of low quality


There are other Polish companies, offering reliable, high quality products.

Check the MicroArt Studio (http://www.microartstudio.com/catalog/) for the bases and more.

Barbarossa
09-05-2005, 12:40
Hey Hortwerth! Do you know these guys, or have you heard about them? Do you think they're reliable?

:0)
09-05-2005, 13:27
I wouldn't want to send 'em my money. And I would not want this to paint the picture that we like knock-off miniatures. 'Cause we don't, right?

Why would we not?

Typheron
09-05-2005, 15:00
because of the orbiting strike crusier GW legal have thats made to sumerally nuke you, anyone you know and anyone you talked to about doing such a thing under a torrent of lawyers all destined to take all your money and if possable enslave your actual soul to the GW production line where the models are made.


only company with more lawyers than GW must be Microsoft.

I have to say i would also rather give up what ittle money i have to the fires of Forge world than buy from this web site, just looks too damn dodgy although Micro Art studios looks good.

:0)
09-05-2005, 20:07
because of the orbiting strike crusier GW legal have thats made to sumerally nuke you, anyone you know and anyone you talked to about doing such a thing under a torrent of lawyers all destined to take all your money and if possable enslave your actual soul to the GW production line where the models are made.

Funny, that hasn't happened to me yet. :p

worldshatterer
09-05-2005, 20:53
right i've asked around about this company elsewhere, this thread is the result-
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=43444

boogle
09-05-2005, 21:11
they could actually make a nice basis for the Infardi Tanks for Gaunts Ghosts

Hortwerth
09-05-2005, 21:28
Hey Hortwerth! Do you know these guys, or have you heard about them? Do you think they're reliable?

Do you mean Sniffdog? No.

Do you mean Micro Art Studio? Yes, I cooperate with them closely. I'm not a Studio member par se, but am closely connected with them.

They have slight communications problems due to their quite basic level of English and tonnes of e-mails from clients every day.

That's about the only problem I can see.

They cooperate with 2 or 3 modelling stores networks in Germany, France and (IIRC) England, so you may have noticed their bases and terrain already.

Even so, their main strength are the commissions work. I can't tell if the prices are high, low or moderate, but you certainly get a good value models.

Ass Goblin
09-05-2005, 22:43
That Micro Art Studio have some very nice bases. And judging from what Hortwerth said I may just buy a few of those.

Thousandth Son
10-05-2005, 00:22
Sweet, cheep mini's. Although I wouldn't buy any because I do try and support my local store, and I am dirt poor. ;)

The Ape
10-05-2005, 20:32
only company with more lawyers than GW must be Microsoft.

GW has two lawyers (and some legal assistants). At least thats all GW UK has anyway.

And GW has a legal duty to its shareholders to vigorously protect its IP. After all, if someone stole your car, you'd be pretyy p'd off right? Well, IP is no different.

So dont hate the lawyers! (hate the accountants ;) )

boogle
10-05-2005, 20:47
they must have Dan Abnett syndrome though (you only ever see 1 of his clones at any one time), and they must have lots of help as they manage to get in quite quick to shut stuff they don't like down

Hortwerth
10-05-2005, 20:58
Actually all they have to do is to have an eye for places like this.

The gaming community does the work for them.

Lion El Jason
10-05-2005, 23:20
The £3.75 ist turrets are probably worth it and I know at least 2 people considering the baneblades.

If I know of anyone else who actually recieves stuff from them I may get a drop pod myself... I dont like the model as much as the FW one but I DO like the price!

Jonathan =I=
11-05-2005, 07:09
LOL I just got an email from sniff dog replying to my email on the size of the super heavy tank.

The answear was that its the same size as a "regular Baneblade"

The funny thing is that I never even mentioned Bane Blade or any other GW product in my email. :)

Jedi152
11-05-2005, 07:46
right i've asked around about this company elsewhere, this thread is the result-
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=43444
This thread is one of the funniest things i've read all day:

You will have to forgive me but I don't see it. If you spend the time to look at the enlarged pictures of the tanks you will find that they are indeed very different.
The similarities are there but no more or less than with any other basic tank design.
A Snifdog advocate maybe? :rolleyes:

Pravus
11-05-2005, 12:40
LOL - its actually quite a bit like that harry Potter ripoff some Russian tried a while ago - a series of books in which the main character (Tanya Grotter - for the love of God!) finds out, ... wait for it ... she's a witch!

Sweet mother of jaysus ...

Cloudscape_online
11-05-2005, 12:55
I remember when a rhino was £5 and a tactical squad was £10. This is about 10 years ago.

For that I could get 2 troops choices, each with Transport and a command squad for about £40.00.

how much these days? £84.00. Tactical squad £18.00, Rhino £15.00, command Squad £18.00

Yes I know the quality of the modelling has increased, but the cost hasn't. 1x Marine=15p to produce. 1x Rhino £1.50 to produce. Metal miniatures are approximately 1/2 price to produce. (with exception to assassins who are about 1/4)

And then GW asks why people look for cheaper alternatives? That's just bloody ignorant. And if they're going to be ignorant they deserve what they get.

They can't charge niche prices for a mainstream orientated game. Instead of bitching about it they should halve their prices overnight. They will not make a loss, because many potential customers are put off by the extreme cast of the game. Instead, they will probably make a large enough profit to continue their line effectively. They would gain a popularity boom attracting more customers, instead of giving customers an excuse to look for cheaper alternatives or not playing at all.

Red out.

:0)
11-05-2005, 13:25
LOL I just got an email from sniff dog replying to my email on the size of the super heavy tank.

The answear was that its the same size as a "regular Baneblade"

The funny thing is that I never even mentioned Bane Blade or any other GW product in my email. :)

Smart move on their part. :D

worldshatterer
19-06-2005, 08:50
thread revivial post.

Snifdog's orkish representatives posted this on theminiaturespage.com,

"Hi.
I join this massage board a litle bit late, so topic about our tanks was close to coments, unfortunately.
All what I want to say (for now)–there is not a single part from GW products in our model. Fakt that they are mistaken is complement itself, but our tanks are orijinal, well , as original as GW tanks are, if you now what I mean.
If you dont now, your problem. Till now there was not a single note from GW, only blocking our Ebay auctions under 40K topic–yes they are right, that was our mistake, now our tanks will be placed in "other sistems" or so. In a moment we don't sale stuff on Ebay–to many orders from e-store, you now :-)

So, have a nice day, see you in

marketon.pl/snifdog

And sorry for my orky english."

original thread here-
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=46431

Angelus Mortis
19-06-2005, 10:15
It is a blatant rip off. GW requires you to have their IP legal mumbo jumbo and doesn't allow you to use their images even when your not selling stuff on their web. I'm in the process of designing a website and have been researching that sort of stuff. If they were licensed they would have to have a GW stamp just about everywhere. I expect to see them go 'bye bye' toot sweet in a hurry now.

On a side note and to be fair, they make some very nice model bases. Really like the Daemon and Undead ones.

The Black Aquila
19-06-2005, 11:03
What gets me is that baneblade... it looks remarkable like the Forgeworld Epic Baneblade...

http://marketon.pl/snifdog/index.php?m=ass&id_ass=29905
Their baneblade

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/QUATERMASTERS_STORE_EPIC_40_000_IMPERIAL_GUARD_17. html

Look at the forgeworld Epic Baneblade...

The only difference between these two if you ask me is the price...

Angelus Mortis
19-06-2005, 11:35
What really kills me is, their profit margin must be ridicuolous. Since they are obviously only recasting, all the hard work(and hence the overhead) was already done by GW/FW. All it costs them is making a mold and raw material. Im looking at a $120 Baneblade that probably sees around $110 to $115 profit. Sorry, but I wont pay a ridiculous amount for something I can do myself for a micro-fraction of the cost.

Azazel
19-06-2005, 14:09
http://marketon.pl/snifdog/index.php?m=ass&id_ass=26822

Check the gravestones out. The skulls on them. I swear they are from the GW Skeleton sprue. So theyve actually used copies from the mould. Anyone else see it?

Jonathan =I=
19-06-2005, 14:11
They are not recasting.

They are two different models which happen to look alike.

x-esiv-4c
19-06-2005, 14:15
The skull on the bottom right gravestone looks straight from the undead sprue.

glimli
19-06-2005, 14:19
yeah with like 6 zloty to the pound the prices are ok, the question is do you trust these boys with your credit card?

Angelus Mortis
19-06-2005, 14:27
They are not recasting.

They are two different models which happen to look alike.Come on man! The turrets are 3e/4e copies and the hulls are 2e or RT hulls. And I believe I've seen that hull in IA I if I'm not mistaken. Or at least one thats very, very similar.

worldshatterer
19-06-2005, 14:57
we've thrashed this out on the miniatures page. they are almost definitely not recasting, any good imperial guard player will tell you that . The issue is that all their models look very very similar to their imperial guard equivalents, with no seperate gaming system or background to distinguish them and identify them as original products it makes them look like cheap imitations .

Rabid Bunny 666
19-06-2005, 15:00
And I believe I've seen that hull in IA I if I'm not mistaken. Or at least one thats very, very similar.

just cancelled out your own argument. very similar being the active words

edit:

forgeworld tank hunter (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/destroyer.htm)
snifdog one (click for larger picture) (http://marketon.pl/snifdog/index.php?m=ass&id_ass=26970)

forgeworld hull (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/ryzalr.htm)
snifdog hull (click for larger picture) (http://marketon.pl/snifdog/index.php?m=ass&id_ass=28700)

Baggers
19-06-2005, 15:20
Rabid Bunny your last link does not work mate.

Cloudscape_online
19-06-2005, 15:45
GW doesn't have a copyright on any tank pattern, only on its names and distinct likenesses. There are only so many variations of 'tank' that can occur before you get repetition. Sniffdog get away with it because they don't mark it up with any GW IP. If they had, they wouldn't still be there. And if SD charge less than GW for a similar sized tank that can be used for the GW game, then it's the customers choice to decide. GW have only themselves to blame.

x-esiv-4c
19-06-2005, 16:11
Has anyone actually ordered from them? I am horribly tempted to get that....baneblade.

warlordgrubnatz
19-06-2005, 16:15
cant read spanish or whatever that sites in but are they selling gw minitures as there own model range

(\_/) |
(O.o) |
(> )>T a job for ls bunny

t-tauri
19-06-2005, 16:51
GW doesn't have a copyright on any tank pattern, only on its names and distinct likenesses.Those distinct likenesses of GW tanks seem to exactly match the look of the Snifdog versions.
I'm not a copyright lawyer but the intent of Snifdog's designs seems to be to act as a cheap substitute for GW's copyrighted designs. Without seeing one in the actual resin it's impossible to decide for certain but parts look like exact recasts of GW tanks with additional surface detail added to try to pass it off as a new design. I believe that's illegal under copyright law. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there's an order for these going to an address near Nottingham for closer examination.


And if SD charge less than GW for a similar sized tank that can be used for the GW game, then it's the customers choice to decide. GW have only themselves to blame.
SD charge less because they've not had to get a designer to make it. They've seemingly copied GW/Forgeworld parts. Forgeworld are generally expensive but they aren't that out of line with similarly detailed and large resin military models or resin figures.
The question is if anyone is willing to risk dealing with an unknown company with such little regard for the law that they will apparently copy and recast other firms products and steal their ideas. Decide whether you want to give them your credit card number.

Getz
19-06-2005, 16:54
Take it from me. They are not recasts or modified recasts or direct copies of GW components. They just look very similar.

Insane Psychopath
19-06-2005, 16:55
Let the court see about that lol

The only diffrecne I can see are in the track other wise they are just coping GW.

Rabid Bunny 666
19-06-2005, 16:58
fixed the linky BTW

similar, but not recast

Getz
19-06-2005, 17:00
Let the court see about that lol

The only diffrecne I can see are in the track other wise they are just coping GW.

Copying yes, but not making recasts and passing them off as their own work, which is a much more serious crime (and easier to prosecute).

Brandir
19-06-2005, 17:36
The snifdog models are not re-casts of GW product. However, they are clearly based on GW products.

Now, does the similarity go so far as it is classed as counterfeiting, hence illegal and in the European Union a criminal offence that is punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.

Well, we cannot make that call; only a judge can. As part of Poland's ascension to the EU, it was required to tighted up its copyright laws. This it did and in theory their laws are as strict as the rest of the EU; basically no counterfeiting allowed and EU wide copyrights enforcable. If one copyrights property in the UK then it is automatically copyrighted throughout the EU and EFTA. Basically GW's copyrights are effective in Poland and the Polish criminal justice system and enforcement agencies are required to protect copyrights.

A company must also be seen to be protecting its copyrights/trademarks/etc and GW quite rightly do just that (as evidenced by the seemingly endless letters GW's solicitors send to various alleged copyright infringements). GW need to protect their copyrights because their whole business model is underpinned by intellectual property rights.

Going back to the original question though - I believe that if GW took legal action a UK court would agree that the similarity is enough to warrant counterfeiting and the products would have to be removed from the market.

Snifdog are, in my opinion, cashing in on the goodwill and years of design by GW. I hope GW deal with them soonest.

Insane Psychopath
19-06-2005, 17:57
I just find this unfair for GW. Sure the model that where talking about are not recast but still they copy it & we got all the proff form Foreg World. The do spend a lot of time making/sculpting those model just for us. Far due GW is price but still.

What I meat by my let the court handly it was about them being recast.

I just find it unfair & those copy once are not even great. It like being on holiday again where they sell those cheap worthless stuff. I rather get the really thing as end of the day that least you know what your getting & also Forge World/GW alway do great models, been the only wargame I collected.

Rabid Bunny 666
19-06-2005, 18:01
but the prices are good though

Trench_Raider
19-06-2005, 19:18
Snifdog are, in my opinion, cashing in on the goodwill and years of design by GW. I hope GW deal with them soonest.

*SNORT*
GW has goodwill? Please.....

I wish these guys the best. As I have stated before, anything that harms GW has my vote. But I doubt these fellows will last long. GW has been very preditory in the past when dealing with smaller companies who produce a similar product. Remember what happend to Deamonforge and Enigma.

The whole conpect of GW suing smaller companies out of existance shows the paranoia on their part. It also unknown in other areas of the miniature market, especially in the historical genre. Can you imagine Essex Miniatures suing Old Gory or Chariot Miniatures because both of them dared to produce (to choose an example at random) New Kingdom Egyptian light chariots?

Anyway, these tanks are close enough that they might make a good substitute. If I were still heavilly involved in 40k I might have bought one. Painted up (especially in a dark color sceme) nine out of ten players would not notice that it was not a "real" GW product. That would be a nice little "screw you" to GW's "use only our toys" rule they have at their shops and events. I used to do something very similar to this years ago. I played a Space marine army in several RTTs, and always made a point to incude an Enigma marine mixed into my otherwise legal force as a silent protest against GW. These tanks might serve the same purpose.

"Trench Raider"

Agamemnon2
19-06-2005, 19:21
I don't see how a recast/counterfeiting charge could be made to stick. The main chassis is of a clearly different design, the turrets different shape. For one thing, the dictionary definition of counterfeiting (not the legal one, mind you) is the illegal copying of something with criminal intent. Copying being the operative word.

Can you tell the difference between Snifdog and GW tanks? Yes. Are they different in shape, size and form? Yes. Are they named, shaped and armed in a manner reminescent of GW kits? Yes, absolutely.

Long_Fang
19-06-2005, 19:59
Hey guys,

I don't see what the big fuss is about. Whether they copied GW, were inspired by them or have original work is something we cannot know for sure.

Anyway, was there not a thread a short time ago about Tau being an exact copy of some Anime robot? Was GW coping? The chances are more likely then Snifdog doing it: because Anime is fiction and tanks are not.

Please search "World War one Tanks, pictures" on the net, and see for yourself.

Here is a link
http://www.firstworldwar.com/weaponry/tanks.htm

The points is; anything we say here is how we feel about GW and Snifdog. Just opinion. IF GW does take court action,which is unlikely, they will win, due to better capital power rather then the TRUTH.

The skulls being Vampire Counts skeleton heads is a very unfair statement. I play VC and have a skull of my own on the top of my shoulders and know for a fact there is, usually, only one shape the skull comes in boys. So of course they will look a like.

These guys are starting something, props to that. I hope, for myself as a GW gamer, that GW doesn't waste timeand money on legal action, but instead creates even better models to further differentiate themselves!

Good gaming guys.

Angelus Mortis
19-06-2005, 21:10
just cancelled out your own argument. very similar being the active wordsContrary to popular belief, it does not have to be an exact duplicate. Heres a quote from a website that deals with inventions and patents. I quoted from the paragraph that gives and example of owning a patent and what that means.


For example, lets assume you invented a pencil with an eraser on it, and no one else had ever put an eraser on top of a pencil. You apply for and receive a patent. Now, nobody can make your pencil with an eraser without your OK. But lets also assume the pencil was invented a few years before and another inventor owns the patent on the pencil. Your pencil has all the features of the other inventor’s pencil except you have added the eraser. Unfortunately, your pencil reads on his patent and you must get permission from him before you can make your pencil. In the real world of business, you would probably approach the other inventor and reach some sort of agreement so that you can have your pencil produced and sold. Perhaps, you would have to license his pencil patent and give him a percentage of the revenues generated from the sale of your pencil with an eraser.


Heres the link to the website and you can read about it yourself if you like.

http://www.lld-law.com/PatentFAQ.html#_3._What_is

And if you think that GW is dumb enough to have a multi-million dollar business and not own the patent on their own creations, I have some ocean front property I would like to sell you in Kansas.

Lord Malachi
19-06-2005, 21:53
I doubt that GW would win a court case against this Snifdog outfit. Snifdog is not marketing their products as endorsed or approved by GW, nor do they mention that they are intended for 40k or any other game system. GW's tank models are not exactly orginal creations. They look a lot like tanks currently and previously in use by many nations around the world. The Chimera looks just like the APCs currently used by the US military. The Leman Russ looks a lot like British tanks from WWI. If anything, the US and UK governments have a damn good case against GW!

As far as the patent attorney's website, perhaps you should have read a bit more...

"Some types of creations excluded from patentability for lacking utility include creative works, such as music, literature and sculpture, scientific or mathematical algorithms, which are considered to be discovered rather than invented, and purely mental processes, which can be performed solely in one’s mind. "

This hightlights the fact that you can't patent models (although the manufacturing process is another matter altogether) though you could copyright them. Again, these Snifdog people make no mention of any of GW's long and questionable list of coprighted words, so I don't see a problem. Ironic though when you consider GW's wholesale pilfering of the ideas of other people - Orks, Eldar (Tolkien) Inquisition (Roman Catholic church) Sly Marbo (Rambo) Colonel Shaeffer and the Last Chancers (Dirty Dozen).

For GW to take action would be a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black!

Angelus Mortis
19-06-2005, 22:54
I doubt that GW would win a court case against this Snifdog outfit. Snifdog is not marketing their products as endorsed or approved by GW, nor do they mention that they are intended for 40k or any other game system. GW's tank models are not exactly orginal creations. They look a lot like tanks currently and previously in use by many nations around the world. The Chimera looks just like the APCs currently used by the US military. The Leman Russ looks a lot like British tanks from WWI. If anything, the US and UK governments have a damn good case against GW!

As far as the patent attorney's website, perhaps you should have read a bit more...

"Some types of creations excluded from patentability for lacking utility include creative works, such as music, literature and sculpture, scientific or mathematical algorithms, which are considered to be discovered rather than invented, and purely mental processes, which can be performed solely in one’s mind. "

This hightlights the fact that you can't patent models (although the manufacturing process is another matter altogether) though you could copyright them. Again, these Snifdog people make no mention of any of GW's long and questionable list of coprighted words, so I don't see a problem. Ironic though when you consider GW's wholesale pilfering of the ideas of other people - Orks, Eldar (Tolkien) Inquisition (Roman Catholic church) Sly Marbo (Rambo) Colonel Shaeffer and the Last Chancers (Dirty Dozen).

For GW to take action would be a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black!So, by this logic then, I am going to load up the latest Star Wars DVD in my computer. I will change the colors of everyones light sabres, and call Anakin Skywalker "Anna Ken SkyTalker" and I should be fine. Can't wait, I'll make millions! :D As for ripping off those other cats you mentioned, there is some leway(spelling?) when it comes to parody, which you could probably claim as far as Sly Marbo is concerned. As for Eldar and Orks and all from Tolkein, sorry Bro, but Tokein did not invent those. You can't patent folklore. And I'm pretty certain that the Inquisition isn't patented by the Church. Not enough similarity between Last Chancers and Dirty Dozen. Last Chancers do not match up to the dirty dozen character wise, mission wise, fluff wise, appearance wise, etc. The only similarity you can draw a connection to, would be a small unit of commando style soldiers, and you can't own the patent on that either otherwise all the military in the world would be fooked.

And as for the patent on modern or antique tanks and vehicles, they do indeed have a patent on them. Thats why you wont find Germany making M1 Abrahms. They make their own, which for all intesive purposes, is very similar. Its the model thats patented, not tanks in general. So if Germany wants to make their own tank that functions almost identicly, but is significantly different to be considered an original, they are well within their legal rights to do so. However, if the new German N1 Abrahms came off the assembly identical to the US version save the name and it has 3 antennas instead of 2, or they put a different paint job or track shoe on it, then they would have a problem.

Long_Fang
19-06-2005, 23:54
@Angelus Mortis
"Last Chancers do not match up to the dirty dozen character wise, mission wise, fluff wise, appearance wise, etc."

Dirty Dozen:

"Plot Outline: A US Army Major is assigned a dozen convicted murderers to train and lead them into a mass assassination mission of German officers in World War II"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061578/

Its impossible to say GW is completely original.

Also the light saber example was a bit exaggerated.

When you break it down there is many things in the 40k and fantasy battle world that are taken from every part of our environment, copied. Many good examples were given in this thread (Lord Malachi).

There is one thing that makes GW successful and unique. Open the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rule book and flip through the first few pages. The images that stir your imagination and the feeling you get when you look at those scenes is what makes GW original and what is so impossible to copy. Anyone can make a tank, this is something completely different.

Angelus Mortis
19-06-2005, 23:59
@Angelus Mortis
"Last Chancers do not match up to the dirty dozen character wise, mission wise, fluff wise, appearance wise, etc."

Dirty Dozen:

"Plot Outline: A US Army Major is assigned a dozen convicted murderers to train and lead them into a mass assassination mission of German officers in World War II"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0061578/

Its impossible to say GW is completely original.

Also the light saber example was a bit exaggerated.

When you break it down there is many things in the 40k and fantasy battle world that are taken from every part of our environment, copied. Many good examples were given in this thread (Lord Malachi).

There is one thing that makes GW successful and unique. Open the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rule book and flip through the first few pages. The images that stir your imagination and the feeling you get when you look at those scenes is what makes GW original and what is so impossible to copy. Anyone can make a tank, this is something completely different.Ok, you didn't like the lightsabre, then lets try this. The new Mistubishi Stalion car just came out. It looks identical to a Ford Mustang except the wheels are 2" bigger and its windshield is sloped 5 degrees more. Think they will get away with it? By what you said, anyone can make a tank(car?).

Long_Fang
20-06-2005, 00:20
I was not aware Mitsubishi had a Stallion model. I have never heard of it. They just released the Eclipse and releasing another sports coupe would only cannibalize their own profits.

I am not sure what I can say about this example since I never heard of it. But I'm sure you have heard about the H2 case. Jeep claimed the new H2 grill was a copy of their Jeep grill. The court decided Jeep had no case and Hummer still wears the same grill as before.

I would guess if there was a Mitsubishi so similar, they would not get away with it.

Till tomorrow.

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 00:41
I was not aware Mitsubishi had a Stallion model. I have never heard of it. They just released the Eclipse and releasing another sports coupe would only cannibalize their own profits.

I am not sure what I can say about this example since I never heard of it. But I'm sure you have heard about the H2 case. Jeep claimed the new H2 grill was a copy of their Jeep grill. The court decided Jeep had no case and Hummer still wears the same grill as before.

I would guess if there was a Mitsubishi so similar, they would not get away with it.

Till tomorrow.Its a ficticous car I made up as an example. :eyebrows:

Freak Ona Leash
20-06-2005, 00:54
Hmm, does this fictious car cost less than the Ford Mustang? Cuz if it does I'l buy one. And it is companies like these that take GW's money way that makes them raise prices. Or GW cou;d just be horrible a t busines...hmm, which one is more likely? If someone starts a poll on that I'll gaive them money.

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 01:12
Hmm, does this fictious car cost less than the Ford Mustang? Cuz if it does I'l buy one. And it is companies like these that take GW's money way that makes them raise prices. Or GW cou;d just be horrible a t busines...hmm, which one is more likely? If someone starts a poll on that I'll gaive them money.Perhaps it does. Lets say, its half price. Yet they still see a massive amount of profit, since it cost them near nothing to develop the small parts they changed, and the raw materials are plentiful and cheap. So even at half price its around a, lets say, 90% profit margin over overhead.

Mr Evil
20-06-2005, 02:28
GW sues companies that produce similar products because then they'd lose their 'price adjustments'. A couple of people here seem very interested in the Baneblade-like tank soley due to it's far cheaper cost. If you could get GW-like/similar products for 1/3 the cost, you definately would unless you were a hardcore GW fan who has nothing else to dedicate their budget to.

Concerning Slipdog, I'm really skeptical that GW can do anything at all. Aside from the fact that you can't really patent the general idea of a tank, they're a Polish company. Although they've joined the EU, Poland is still far behind modern countries as it's still recovering from communism. Illegal copies still run rampant, and Slipdog could easily dissolve and reform as a new company without much trouble, making it very difficult for GreedWorkshop to 'hunt' them down.

Slipdog does have it's own models and not recasts. Why are they so cheap? Because they're marked up 2000% instead of 12000% like Forgeworld. Sure Forgeworld has nicer stuff, but unless they're paying the sculptors a quarter million pounds for each sculpt, their prices are set at the limit of what they think any GW fan may pay, not at what would be reasonable.

Long_Fang
20-06-2005, 06:39
IF they start making Space Orks, Space Elves, Space Aliens, Space Anime, Space Robots or Space Marines they will be treading thinner ice.

Brandir
20-06-2005, 07:15
I think that many people's opinion here is blurred by their dislike of GW and their practices. It is perfectly reasonable given GW's latest price rises for people to be angry.

But that opinion is obscuring legal facts in the European Union, which is where both companies are based.

It is quite clear that snifdog are piggybacking on GW's products. In my opinion this sort of practice is wrong. Why? Well, GW have invested years in making their product and snifdog are taking a shortcut and are not investing in the hobby one bit.

How many free rules do snifdog have on their web site? What about hobby centres with free gaming rooms? How about staff to give advice in shops, over the phone or via the internet on painting/tactics/whatever?

Insane Psychopath
20-06-2005, 07:34
20-06-2005 08:15
Brandir

How many free rules do snifdog have on their web site? What about hobby centres with free gaming rooms? How about staff to give advice in shops, over the phone or via the internet on painting/tactics/whatever?

I agree with you there. I alway like going to my GW since we got a gaming room, the staff are cool as well alway a laught. Why I'm about to head in to GW for Vet night.

I just thing snifdog are lazy as you said there taken Short cut when in took GW 30 year to be where it is today.

MidnightResistance
20-06-2005, 09:04
They're definately sniffing something :D

Nurglitch_PS
20-06-2005, 10:13
The weird thing is that the Sniffdog copies are more expensive than the GW originals bought from any independent Internet retailer. SWHS has Leman Russes cheaper.

Is there going to be a legal action? I doubt it. The problem with Poland is the judges: they just cannot be bothered to work. A court case in a very simplest matter can wait for the first hearing for years (literraly, no exaggeration here) and this pretty much covers the asses of petty copyright thieves like Sniffdog. The GW has been notified about this page. I know it for sure because I have sent them an e-mail with it's address (about two months ago). As a programmer I hate the asian "branding tactics" that Sniffdog is employing.

Rabid Bunny 666
20-06-2005, 11:55
"asian branding tactics"?

meaning what ecactly

Nurglitch_PS
20-06-2005, 12:00
"asian branding tactics"?

meaning what ecactly


Chinese mostly. The state (the government) believes there, that the only point of drawing foreign investors to the country is to make them disclose the technology so the local companies can copycat it with total disregard to any copyright and patent laws. Europe is flooded by chinese counterfeits - from clothing to DVDs and games.

Rabid Bunny 666
20-06-2005, 12:03
aah, i see, but they are similar, not the same, and i can't see anything wrong with buying them

Brandir
20-06-2005, 12:33
I can see things wrong with buying counterfeit/pirate products.

For instance, I suspect that many pirate DVD traders don't pay tax on their earnings - why should I pay higher rates of tax to pay for those who avoid taxes?

And I suspect that money made from counterfeit goods, such as recast minis, does not go to fund research and development of new minis.

Nurglitch_PS
20-06-2005, 12:44
aah, i see, but they are similar, not the same, and i can't see anything wrong with buying them

It's a question of morals. When you buy counterfeits, you are rewarding the thieves, making the theft profitable and at the same time discouraging the legitimate product retailers and manufacturers. In Poland we have a rabid piracy market when it comes to computer games and software and as a consequence Poland has never created any computer game worth mentioning. What's the point if it will be immediatelly stolen and team working on it will not even get their money back?

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 12:45
As far as the patent attorney's website, perhaps you should have read a bit more...

"Some types of creations excluded from patentability for lacking utility include creative works, such as music, literature and sculpture, scientific or mathematical algorithms, which are considered to be discovered rather than invented, and purely mental processes, which can be performed solely in one’s mind. "

This hightlights the fact that you can't patent models (although the manufacturing process is another matter altogether) though you could copyright them. Again, these Snifdog people make no mention of any of GW's long and questionable list of coprighted words, so I don't see a problem. Ironic though when you consider GW's wholesale pilfering of the ideas of other people - Orks, Eldar (Tolkien) Inquisition (Roman Catholic church) Sly Marbo (Rambo) Colonel Shaeffer and the Last Chancers (Dirty Dozen).

For GW to take action would be a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black!Dude, listen. What that is refering to is one of a kind creations such as 'The Mona Lisa', 'The Statue of Liberty', or a song by Madonna or Johan Sebastian Bach, or maybe . I'm certain that GW models do not qualify as artwork. Sure they are very artistic, but it does not qualify as art, as they are mass produced and can be easily copied by someone else and mass produced. That is just a ridiculous conclusion. I truly feel you have no idea how the whole system works as you keep mentioning all the model GW has ripped off of these guys when I clearly showed in my earlier post how weak those links you made are, backed by the link to the patent law webpage. I'm not trying to insult you, however, I just feel you do not have a good grasp of what it means exactly.

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 12:58
aah, i see, but they are similar, not the same, and i can't see anything wrong with buying themSorry if this is a double post but I just saw this. If the majority of the population of the planet shared your mentality, we would have a complete economic collapse of the world, the likes of which would probably put us back into the Dark Ages. If GW(or any major corporation for that matter) loses enough money do to piracy and there is no legal recourse to deal with said piracy, then the pirates will grow as people will buy. Why? Because you think its ok. So why have a law saying no? GW goes out of business, and the pirates go out of business because GW is no longer around to make rules for the game. So they screw themselves. Now GW and the Pirates are out of business so no more tax dollars to the government from sales tax and all the taxes assigned to business dealings (which I might add make up the majority of all government income. If you think income tax is the biggest chunk of revenue for the government you are sorely mistaken). That is the reason why there are international anti-piracy laws, and thats how it will in the long run affect you. China on the other hand, doesn't care about piracy, as it is a short term solution to bolster their poorly managed economy (sure, communism works, right :rolleyes: ). In the future, either due to outside politcal pressure(most likely IMHO) or due to China realizing its short term goal economicly (less likely as I don't think the UN will allow it to get to that point) China will enforce international anti-piracy laws. They have to or their economy will just go to crap where it started.

On a side note. Dang! I watch way too much news.

Brandir
20-06-2005, 13:01
Remember that the patent attorney's website that is quoted is US based. Snifdog and GW are both EU based so the rules may be slightly different. We are also talking about COPYRIGHT/INTELLECTUAL PROPERT rather than PATENTS which are different subject areas.

One cannot patent a song but one can copyright it. One cannot patent a model but one can copyright it.

There are some works that are no longer copyrighted (such as the works of Shakespear or various folk stories from around the world). However, the copyright on GW's products has not expired and I doubt it ever will - the US and EU keep extending the period that 'art' (whether it be books/images/songs/whatever) is copyrighted just before the copyright on Disney's original products is about to expire!

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 13:25
Remember that the patent attorney's website that is quoted is US based. Snifdog and GW are both EU based so the rules may be slightly different. We are also talking about COPYRIGHT/INTELLECTUAL PROPERT rather than PATENTS which are different subject areas.

One cannot patent a song but one can copyright it. One cannot patent a model but one can copyright it.

There are some works that are no longer copyrighted (such as the works of Shakespear or various folk stories from around the world). However, the copyright on GW's products has not expired and I doubt it ever will - the US and EU keep extending the period that 'art' (whether it be books/images/songs/whatever) is copyrighted just before the copyright on Disney's original products is about to expire!You are indeed correct. There are slight differences, but they are generally minor and have more to do with difference in beauracracies rather than legal intent, however. You are also correct about some Patent/Copyrights being expired. The example I gave of the Mona Lisa certainly has expired as you can see photos of it everywhere and even artists attempts at reproducing it (not so much to cash in on it, more so as a homage to it). Copyright and Patents are different slightly, but no so much in legal intent as to what they types of products they cover. Copyright handles more along the lines of things that have no real physical substance (ie, words which can be spoken) and patents more along the lines of products that have physical substance. Intellectual Property is kind of a way of defining either copyright or patent items, and has has no real physical substance either. It can all be very confusing really, but if put into layman terms (abliet kind of vague) it can be easier to get the idea.

Cloudscape_online
20-06-2005, 13:30
IP pirates give up the right to IP as soon as they steal it. Economics would not collapse, copyright integrity would. This means that anyone who wanted to produce the same product for less, could. They would just have to be aware that anyone else with a better version of it will be able to produce it for the same amount of money or less. Competition.

You can't patent 'tank', you can't copyright 'tank' either. You can't patent 'Super Tank' because too many sci-fi books and games have superscale war machines, and for the same reason you can't copyright 'Super Tank' either.

Piggy-backing, or jumping on the bandwagon? Companies follow trends to make profits. If people want a superscale tank with 1 megaweapon, 3 battlecannons and 2 sets of sponsons at a scale that can be used with Void or 40K, ANY company could get a library of images for 'Tank', 'Sci-fi' and 'Military Hardware' and create a model that would by definition be similar to any FW super heavy tank. High definition similarity will get them nailed, but at the moment, SD is just a model company that makes tanks at a similar enough scale so that they can be used in 40K.

SD models are not recasts. SD super tanks have turrents, FW super heavy tanks don't. Their megaweapon is mounted into the hull. You have to make a new mould to create the SD tanks.

Nurglitch_PS
20-06-2005, 13:38
IP pirates give up the right to IP as soon as they steal it. Economics would not collapse, copyright integrity would. This means that anyone who wanted to produce the same product for less, could. They would just have to be aware that anyone else with a better version of it will be able to produce it for the same amount of money or less. Competition.

Well, of course. Competition. Exactly like Chinese "addida" trainers are competition. Sorry, but I do not believe for one single moment, that after looking at the Sniffdog tanks you do not see that they are rip-offs. That you do not see Vanquisher turrets, heavy bolters, a Baneblade (not a generic super heavy tank, but a Baneblade), and so on. No, supporting this particular bunch of thieves will not make the world economy collapse. As I've said - it's just a matter of ethics.

icharus
20-06-2005, 13:41
Went there came straight back out what a load of guff models. If you want good models but are not GW related you should check out www.heresyminiatures.co.uk good stuff good prices.

Talkie Toaster
20-06-2005, 13:44
SD models are not recasts. SD super tanks have turrents, FW super heavy tanks don't. Their megaweapon is mounted into the hull. You have to make a new mould to create the SD tanks.
The "Super Tank" is *ahem* inspired by the Baneblade, which does have a turret (although the demolisher cannon and heavy bolter turret are on opposite sides of the tank, if that really makes any difference (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/marsbb.jpg)).

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 13:49
No, supporting this particular bunch of thieves will not make the world economy collapse. As I've said - it's just a matter of ethics.
The collapse of world economy comment was in reply to the guys comment on how its ok to by pirated stuff. I will re-iterate. IF the entire world felt that it was ok and did support pirates, in all markets, not just plastic models, then it would indeed destroy the world economy. Thats basic economics Bro. Supporting a few here and there will not even dent or be noticable, indeed. What I was refering to was a ficticious world with no patent/copyright laws at all and everyone and there brother cloning each others products. It would be a complete economic nightmare. Why do you think they make these laws in the first place? Just to justify law makers jobs? No. Its to protect the economy from self-destruction.

Brandir
20-06-2005, 13:53
... Economics would not collapse ...

You are quite right. The world economy would not collapse if copyright laws were scrapped. In an ideal capitalist world economy there would be less strict copyright laws. This would mean that companies would have to compete in terms of quality and customer service. I'd argue that GW are the best in terms of quality/customer service in the wargaming world and would thrive; many other people would not and completely disagree!

To a certain extent, with relatively short patents, drug companies are in this sort of environment. Thus we do see some incredible advances (and profits ...) by the more innovative drug companies.

Anyway, unfortunately we do not live in a true capitalist society so we have copyright laws to protect those companies that do spend money on innovation and does try and protect them from 'pirates'.

Consumers also need protecting from pirates. Many years ago I was the victim of a mail order company that sold recast GW minis. I was foolish enough to believe a 'cheap Citadel Miniatures' ad! The quality was dire and I never got my money back.

Has anyone actually got a snifdog product? How does the cast compare to Forgeworld? Is it as detailed? Is the resin used as good as FW, for example does it hold the paint as well? Is the resin brittle? Some cheap resins used by less reputable companies become brittle over quite short periods of time and can literally melt into a goo if they soak up too much water. FW resin is much less likely to suffer these defects. FW resin is also non-toxic; is the resin used by recasters/cheaper alternatives non-toxic?

Nurglitch_PS
20-06-2005, 13:55
In an ideal capitalist world economy there would be less strict copyright laws. This would mean that companies would have to compete in terms of quality and customer service.

And only a madman would put any money in innovation.

Cloudscape_online
20-06-2005, 14:08
The other way to solve the problem is to *make* your own super heavy tank to use for your army. Buy some GW parts, block make the base form and parts, then add detail. I'm gonna make a Baneblade out of pink foam, undercoat it black and then camo it up to look alright. I managed to effectively reverse-engineer my Basilisk into a Chimera. Now I can have either a Basilisk or a Chimera at a moments notice. I'm gonna do the same with my Hellhound when I get it. GW can't stop people making their own models or scenery to use with 40K, can they? As long as I don't mass produce or sell them. I can give them away though. :p wait, that pink stuff's way too expensive for that, :mad: screw that stupid idea. I'll build an army of Baneblades, Yarrgh!

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 15:27
In an ideal capitalist world economy there would be less strict copyright laws. This would mean that companies would have to compete in terms of quality and customer service. However, we are talking about copying, not creating your own product. Yes in an ideal world, businesses would create their own version of a product with better features, hence, not a clone. Which is exactly what they do now. What we are talking about, is a direct copy with very minor differences in a poor attempt to avoid litigation (which I personally don't think they achieved).

Also you mentioned FW resin being non-toxic which is in fact erroneous. They have a warning on their website stating the dangers of working with resin and send several documents with their products detailing those same warnings. However, I do see your point in quality of products, and you are correct that usually pirate copies are indeed of lower quality.

Brandir
20-06-2005, 15:47
The dust is carcinogenic - but then again so is all dust - which is why GW recommend one should wear a face mask whilst working on their resin models.

However, there are also very toxic resins that are very cheap and more unscruplous manufacturers may use. GW uses a resin that is non-toxic. All GW models are now made using a non-toxic substance since 1998, in response to the COSHH Regulations 1996.

t-tauri
20-06-2005, 15:58
Also you mentioned FW resin being non-toxic which is in fact erroneous. They have a warning on their website stating the dangers of working with resin and send several documents with their products detailing those same warnings.
The resin itself isn't toxic, however the fine particles of dust created when sanding and then inhaled into the lung can potentially lead to cancer and lung diseases. Then again so can many other airbourne particles, which is why we have dustmasks.

I still believe the shapes of the Snifdog models are so similar that underneath most of their models there's a GW hull struggling to get out. Certainly the chimera turrets are very very similar. Irrespective of whether they're recasts with added detail or not there's a clear attempt to copy GW even down to the style of the welds and riveting on the armour. Rather than support these IP thieves there are plenty of reputable companies out there who'll sell you rather nice generic resin SF tanks ideal for PDF use on any planet you like.

DLD (http://www.dldproductions.com/25mmgrndbsd.html)

Pig Iron productions (http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/)

Old Crow (http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm.htm)

Inquisitor Samos
20-06-2005, 16:16
Rather than support these IP thieves there are plenty of reputable companies out there who'll sell you rather nice generic resin SF tanks ideal for PDF use on any planet you like.

DLD (http://www.dldproductions.com/25mmgrndbsd.html)

Pig Iron productions (http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/)

Old Crow (http://www.oldcrowmodels.co.uk/25mm.htm)
Interesting, mentioning DLD in this thread: they ran afoul of GW themselves a while back, for making "Ship Blanks" that would accept Battlefleet Gothic plastic weapons bits..... the ships themselves looked only very vaguely like GW's own BFG ships, but had side cut-outs for mounting the plastic cruiser bits. These didn't see a very long sales life, of course.....

Shadow Weaver
20-06-2005, 17:15
Couldnt see what their posting costs would be, wondering if you would even recieve any orders considering other cons from these countries?

Wraith
20-06-2005, 17:27
Laws only exist to keep capatalistic society running smoothly not to tell man what is right and wrong so for example if you don't care about capatalistic society then (putting any religious or philiospoical convictions aside) I don't see why anyone would give a damn (morally) about buying pirated DVDs etc.

Cloudscape_online
20-06-2005, 17:30
Interesting, mentioning DLD in this thread: they ran afoul of GW themselves a while back, for making "Ship Blanks" that would accept Battlefleet Gothic plastic weapons bits..... <Snip/paste>These didn't see a very long sales life, of course.....

GW fears competition, maybe? If customers have an option to go cheaper for just as good quality they will. It's easier to sue than compete. GW pretty much monpolises the market.

Verm1s
20-06-2005, 18:05
Laws only exist to keep capatalistic society running smoothly not to tell man what is right and wrong so for example if you don't care about capatalistic society then (putting any religious or philiospoical convictions aside) I don't see why anyone would give a damn (morally) about buying pirated DVDs etc.
Bloody hell, let's not have a gathering of mini-Nietzsches that was so common on Portent. All that happens is that people shout 'this is what I think so it's right!' then stick their fingers in their ears and la-la-la.

If you go ahead anyway, it may help to learn how to spell capitalist.

Sir_Turalyon
20-06-2005, 18:07
Having actually seen sniffdog models (separate turrents, to be precise), I can say few things.

1) Shape-wise they have nothing to do with GW models. Russ-compatibile turrents are "abrams-inspired", chimera-compatibile turrents are bradley rip-off - I don't think US Army will bother about their IP:rolleyes:.

2) However, armaments are direct GW rip-off; in most cases it is your generous cannon, but twin heavy bolters and vanquisher cannon are one step too far for comfort.

3) I did not misspell in 1) - I was told the separate turrets are actually compatibile with GW models.

4) The fact they are using resin (favorie material in making home-made copies of GW products here in poland) and character of their e-mails pretty much sums them up as cheap and unreliable enthusiasts of quick money with enough skils to make thier modles, rather then a serious company- in my eyes, of course. This kind of "gobbo-bussiness" is sadly popular in Poland, althrough most sell their services and "products" - at places similiar to ebay.

this impression does not make them inhonest when it comes to customer service, I pretty much expect them to try as they can to look as good as possible... but does not make them look reliable, eighter.

Would I trust them my credit card? No way in hell. I would consider buying few extra turrents to have flexible tank options without having to buy more chasisses then I can use in battle, but only by buying them personaly from the shop. But if I were living outside Poland, I would stay away, or at least be very careful.

As for legal matters, I agree with Nurglitch - the case would take years and years. What self-respecting polish judge will bother to treat seriously copying toy tanks? Not in this generation.

Angelus Mortis
20-06-2005, 20:39
1) Shape-wise they have nothing to do with GW models. Russ-compatibile turrents are "abrams-inspired", chimera-compatibile turrents are bradlay rip-off - I don't think US Army will bother :roll:.
I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic, but this is really beginning to get on my last nerve. Its called a Turret. Not a Turrent. There is no 'n' in turret.

Cloudscape_online
20-06-2005, 23:16
That's just pedantic, you know what he meant. In anycase, form and function often go hand in hand, and most designers look at what currently exists in order to draw inspiration and Ideas about what a 'product' looks like and how it functions. Should a turret be mounted at the front of the tank or at the rear? Central, left or right? How big is the tank? Does it need to support sponsons, and how will they be integrated with the tracks system? Sir_turalyon sounds a bit like treadhead (above average knowledge of tank patterns gave it away :p ).

Point is that the Tank is a Tank, and all Tanks look like Tanks. Even if the tank guns look like SA80 LSWs', I'd still use them as stripped down Heavy bolters.

Jal'knock
21-06-2005, 00:15
I hope GW sue them....unless I buy their stuff for cheaper.... *plan forms*

Sir_Turalyon
21-06-2005, 08:51
I'm sorry if this is a bit off topic, but this is really beginning to get on my last nerve. Its called a Turret. Not a Turrent. There is no 'n' in turret.


Sincere appologises - I was so certain I'm writing it correctly that I didn't bother to check spelling out :eek:. Will try to remember.

worldshatterer
21-06-2005, 09:06
I don't really get how anyone can think the russ or chimera turrets are inspired by the abrams and bradley respectively .

Look
Abrams-http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/m1.jpg
Russ-http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99120105011&orignav=10
snifdog-http://marketon.pl/snifdog/index.php?m=ass&id_ass=28700

Bradley-http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/images/bfv_040805-f-1351b-001a.jpg
Chimera-http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99120105013&orignav=10
snifdog-http://marketon.pl/snifdog/index.php?m=ass&id_ass=10863

Wonderdog
21-06-2005, 09:10
I need to order me some of that stuff right now.

EDIT :- just ordered a couple of the heavy bolter turrets... just to see what the quality is like, and if they are actually just remoulds (as it appears) of the nice forgeworld ones I have (I've already got 6 of those for my stormtrooper chimera's...DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!)

I'll let you know if/when they arrive what thier like.

#Wonderdog.

Jedi152
21-06-2005, 09:10
Point is that the Tank is a Tank, and all Tanks look like Tanks. Even if the tank guns look like SA80 LSWs', I'd still use them as stripped down Heavy bolters.
Yes, but if you asked someone to design a generic scifi tank, the chances that it would be practically identical to a leman russ, with the same guns, and be called a 'rousse' without copying are very slim.

1) Shape-wise they have nothing to do with GW models. Russ-compatibile turrents are "abrams-inspired", chimera-compatibile turrents are bradley rip-off - I don't think US Army will bother about their IP
But Snifdog aren't making real tanks to compete with the US military, they are making cheap copies of GW designs, and trying to steal GW's customers.

Which i sincerely hope they don't do, because those Snifdog tanks look awful!

Cloudscape_online
21-06-2005, 10:37
The T-34/76 Russian tank is what the Chimera appears to be based on.

The Russ appears to be based on a hybrid of a Mark V and an M60A1.

'Rousse' is French for 'Russet Red', though its similarities to 'Russ' are too blatant to ignore. If this company is giving you good reason to draw it to GWs' attention then do so already. If not then quit complaining about it because there's nothing else that can be done. Yes it's infuriating that other companies can create cheaper versions of the same product, but if they are much cheaper and the quality is at least half as good as GW products, then I'm happy.

It sounds to me that some people feel as if they've been penalised for purchasing expensive GW products, when their opponent turns up with an army that cost them £30, instead of £120. "It's not fair." Really? It's fairer than the price of many GW products. If my opponent had cheap knock-offs, I'd just confirm which tanks/units are represented by what, and then ask how I could get hold of some as well.

Jedi152
21-06-2005, 10:55
The T-34/76 Russian tank is what the Chimera appears to be based on.
I find it hard to make this copmparison, but anyway ... As I stated before, this is different. A company (GW) designing it's model tanks with different bits inspired by historical tanks is different to one company stealing another's designs, names etc. to try and produce cheaper copies and steal their customers.

It sounds to me that some people feel as if they've been penalised for purchasing expensive GW products, when their opponent turns up with an army that cost them £30, instead of £120. "It's not fair." Really? It's fairer than the price of many GW products. If my opponent had cheap knock-offs, I'd just confirm which tanks/units are represented by what, and then ask how I could get hold of some as well.
I don't feel that i've been penalised. I wouldn't compain if someone got there tanks cheaper because they are from an unscrupulous (sp?) source.

I'm not belittling Snifdog's products because i'm jealous that they are cheaper. I'm belittling them because they are poor copies of GW's tanks. I'm just glad that if i pay £20 for a GW tank then i know it's going to be good quality, not a poor copy, and my money is going into the design and production of new models.

In opposition to what some people have said on this thread i do have a moral objection to pirated products. I believe that if i genuinely like a product, and i think it is worth buying, then it is worth the designer/company getting my money in recognition of that, not some shyster - I don't own any pirated DVD's, CD's, games, anything, and i certainly won't be buying poor Snifdog copies any time soon.

Angelus Mortis
21-06-2005, 11:03
Sincere appologises - I was so certain I'm writing it correctly that I didn't bother to check spelling out :eek:. Will try to remember.Yeah I apologize too if I offended you, but its been a real pet peeve of mine since I was in the Army. I spent 14 years in Armored Cav and had guys on our tanks that would do the same. You would think they would know better. :D

Nurglitch_PS
21-06-2005, 11:07
I'm not belittling Snifdog's products because i'm jealous that they are cheaper.

But they are not! Quite the contrary - exept for the Baneblade they are more expensive. Please check the prices :)

Angelus Mortis
21-06-2005, 11:38
But they are not! Quite the contrary - exept for the Baneblade they are more expensive. Please check the prices :)I am asuming that the English page prices are in US dollars. If so then they are on average $8 cheaper. I can get legit ones for $9 cheaper at my local store. They sell all GW models at a 20% discount. Perhaps you thought it was English pounds? That would make them appear more expensive.

Nurglitch_PS
21-06-2005, 11:45
Leman Russ (GW):
20GBP
Leman Russ (SWHS):
16GBP
Leman Russ (Nu Gaming):
18GBP
Counterfeit Leman Russ (Sniffdog):
115PLN = (by official course of the Bank of Poland, 21/06/2005) 18.87GBP

They are 1.13GBP cheaper than legit ones in GW, and more expensive (in case of SWHS by 2.87GBP) than any independent retailer's price.

For a greater price you get a crappy counterfeit. What's the point?

Praetorian
21-06-2005, 11:46
Yeah, kinda risky to drop your credit card on these guys sight unseen, through open spaces, yes?
They are on e-bay, so it may be well safer to deal with them on there, with all the safeties in place.
Anyone see one of their auctions go for cheap or anything? That would mean saving some bucks that way perhaps.

Brandir
21-06-2005, 11:50
Who/what are SWHS?

Wonderdog
21-06-2005, 11:54
They also accept payment by paypal, though this info is only in the email they send you when you try to order something. I've just ordered a couple of turrets... we'll see how it goes eh? Worst case scenario... paypal refund my 20 quid.

Nurglitch_PS
21-06-2005, 11:54
Who/what are SWHS?

An independent retailer.

http://swhs.co.uk/

Nurglitch_PS
21-06-2005, 11:55
Yeah, kinda risky to drop your credit card on these guys sight unseen, through open spaces, yes?

Not really. All the credit card transactions are insured by default.

Lord Malachi
22-06-2005, 13:19
Dude, listen. What that is refering to is one of a kind creations such as 'The Mona Lisa', 'The Statue of Liberty', or a song by Madonna or Johan Sebastian Bach, or maybe . I'm certain that GW models do not qualify as artwork. Sure they are very artistic, but it does not qualify as art, as they are mass produced and can be easily copied by someone else and mass produced. That is just a ridiculous conclusion. I truly feel you have no idea how the whole system works as you keep mentioning all the model GW has ripped off of these guys when I clearly showed in my earlier post how weak those links you made are, backed by the link to the patent law webpage. I'm not trying to insult you, however, I just feel you do not have a good grasp of what it means exactly.

Weak argument. Not as weak as your imaginary car copy argument though. You claim that if Mistubishi produced an imaginary near copy of the Ford Mustang that Ford (like the GW and Snifdog situation) could sue away the problem. Gaze upon the following link...

http://www.erareplicas.com/fia/fia.htm

This company states that they are in no way affiliated with the original manufacturer of the car although they openly display the names. Then they go on to highlight how exact their copy is. All of this in the USA where the copyright/patent/"IP" laws are some of the toughest in the world. A quick Google search will reveal the existence of many of these companies that produce replica cars (some stand alone, some kits to modify existing cars) none of which seem to have been put out of business by the companies that created the original.

Open Challenge: If anyone can find a single case where GW has gone to court and won against another company for copyrigh/patent/IP violations (legal sounding letters and out-of-court settlements don't count) I will send to you a brand new shiny nickel with your choice of "old school pony tail" Jefferson or the new "extreme close-up" Jefferson.

Wiseman
22-06-2005, 13:39
would like to have bought a baneblade from them. if i hd the money of course.

worldshatterer
22-06-2005, 22:06
well heres the best response i can muster to Lord Malachi's challenge-
http://www.portent.net/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=80344

basically GW is a big legal bully that gets its own way because everyone they take on are comparitively small fry who aren't going to court over somethin they do semi-profesionally for love of the hobby .

sniffdog
22-06-2005, 22:34
Hi.
I am on this massage board a litle bit late.
All what I want to say (for now)–there is not a single part from GW products in our models. Fakt that they are mistaken is complement itself, but our tanks are original, well , as original as GW tanks are, if you now what I mean.
If you dont now, your problem. Till now there was not a single note from GW, only blocking our Ebay auctions under 40K topic–yes they are right, that was our mistake, now our tanks will be placed in "other sistems" or so. In a moment we don't sale stuff on Ebay–to many orders from e-store, you now :-)

So, have a nice day, see you in

marketon.pl/snifdog

And sorry for my orky english.

Delicious Soy
22-06-2005, 23:40
You'd think that in the time between posting this here and on the minatures web page, you'd be able to write a coherently English press release.

Cloudscape_online
23-06-2005, 00:53
that's not funny.

MidnightResistance
23-06-2005, 06:06
Considering how much people complain about GW's constant price hikes, I'm amazed people don't buy more miniatures from other games companies

Praetorian
23-06-2005, 06:13
Ge ahead man- mock my English (!)

Hey Snifdog- any press is good press right, so I wouldn't worry too much. ;)

Delicious Soy
24-06-2005, 01:08
that's not funny.I think it speaks volumes about their company if they cannot get someone to write a press release in proper english. Just makes it sound even more like a backyard job if you ask me.

Grumnir
24-06-2005, 01:25
You'd think that in the time between posting this here and on the minatures web page, you'd be able to write a coherently English press release.

That implies English being your natural language --> and surprise surprise it isn't the default language in Poland (Polish? Never!)

If your gonna have a go at him you may as well make it about his/her actions as opposed to english literacy.

On Topic:
Having been into GW products for almost ten years now i see no problem with looking for alternatives... I used to think it was fairly ludicrously high priced ten years ago... :rolleyes:

Nurglitch_PS
24-06-2005, 07:06
That implies English being your natural language --> and surprise surprise it isn't the default language in Poland (Polish? Never!)

Is this a Polish forum?



Having been into GW products for almost ten years now i see no problem with looking for alternatives...

Funny. Exactly the same thing that I hear from the guys buying pirated softare.

Hortwerth
24-06-2005, 07:10
On Topic:
Having been into GW products for almost ten years now i see no problem with looking for alternatives... I used to think it was fairly ludicrously high priced ten years ago... :rolleyes:

hehe...

A quote from 1993 Warhammer 40000: Dark Millenium:

There are numerous plastic kits and die-cast models on the market which lend themselves splendidly to conversion, and of course it's a simple matter to use one of the Games Workshop plastic kits such as the Rhino or the Land Raider as a basic chassis.

Note how much the company changed over the years...

Pulls their nose sky-high now.

No care for the Gamer. Only person that matters is the Client, the less thinking the better.

Trench_Raider
24-06-2005, 07:29
Having been into GW products for almost ten years now i see no problem with looking for alternatives...

Funny. Exactly the same thing that I hear from the guys buying pirated softare.

:rolleyes:
Ok, so looking for a more sanely priced miniature to play 40k with is the same as buying pirated software? I'm sorry, unless you are buying illegal copies like recasts, then there is no comparison. Although GW will never admit it, using non-Gw products in 40k armies is just fine.

Unless you are playing in a GW store or sponsored event, no one is going to have a problem with a non-GW stand-in model. Ok, let me rephrase that....is anyone has a problem with seeing a non-GW model in a 40k army then they are the sort of person you don't want to be playing with anyway.

"Trench Raider"

Keravin
24-06-2005, 08:09
Haven't we already established in this thread that the snifdog stuff isn't on the whole cheaper?

Nurglitch_PS
24-06-2005, 08:12
Ok, so looking for a more sanely priced miniature to play 40k with is the same as buying pirated software?

No. Buying pirated models is just the same as buying pirated software.



Unless you are playing in a GW store or sponsored event, no one is going to have a problem with a non-GW stand-in model. Ok, let me rephrase that....

Of course not. But what has this got to do with counterfeit GW models?

Trench_Raider
24-06-2005, 08:29
These are not "pirated models". They are similar just in the same way that the old Harlequin fantasy range (now marketed by Black Tree) are similar to GW's fantasy range. But they are not pirated miniatures. Pirated product are made with an intention to deceive the consumer into thinking he is buying the real article. I just don't see that with these.

"Trench Raider"

Keravin
24-06-2005, 08:38
So all those pirate videos I could buy are ok as long as I know they are not originals?

Trench_Raider
24-06-2005, 08:49
So all those pirate videos I could buy are ok as long as I know they are not originals?


Don't be silly. Of course not. The difference is that pirated material is an unauthorised COPY. These tanks and Harlequin/Black Tree figures are a completely different sort of animal. In this case they are similar enough that you can see the inspiration of the GW model, but there are enough differences that it does not fall into the realm of piracy. This is cerayinly the case with black Tree as they have been around for years with GW legal not making a case against them. I suspect the same will occur with these guys.

"Trench Raider"

Keravin
24-06-2005, 09:10
Black Tree employed ex GW designers which is why the styles were similar. Same reason I can happily have old Grenadier figures in my High Elf armies because they are similar but not the same.

I think the argument is stretched when you try and link it to these tanks though. When their emails and public statements specifically reference GW products.

Nurglitch_PS
24-06-2005, 09:15
These tanks and Harlequin/Black Tree figures are a completely different sort of animal.

Oh yes. La Rousse is a coincidence. The Heavy Bolters are just coincidential similarity. The baneblade is in fact inspired by the New Zealand Killer Sheep . To sum it up - pull the other one.

Trench_Raider
24-06-2005, 09:25
Oh yes. La Rousse is a coincidence. The Heavy Bolters are just coincidential similarity. The baneblade is in fact inspired by the New Zealand Killer Sheep . To sum it up - pull the other one.

Sarcasm does not become you. :rolleyes:
of course it's not coincidental. The intent is obviously to provide a product that is similar enough to GW's offerings to be an acceptably substitute for many 40k players. However they are not being marketed in a dishonest manner AS a GW product and have enough differences that they are not out right copies. They are in the clear as far as I can see.

As I stated earlier in this very thread there is alot of "cross-compatability" in other areas of the miniature wargames industry. But for whatever reason, GW gets uptight at the idea of anyone playing their games with another brand of figures. so they have sued smaller companies out of existance. (ie Enigma, Demonblade, etc..)

But I get the impression you were ok with what GW did to Enigma, which if true explains your attitude toward this company as well.

"Trench Raider"

FoolsJourney
24-06-2005, 09:33
There are two different issues here, so I'll deal with them separately.

1. Many of these items are not only remarkably similar to the GW product, they are clearly designed to be so. They're intention is to make money out of what is fundamentally GWs design and intellectual copyright, and that is illegal... depending on the country in which they are being copied. If they are being made by and for a company in a country that does not recognise international copyright and plagiarism rights, it would be difficult (though not impossible) for GW to pursue them. If one of these companies could bring sufficient evidence to the table that the design wasn't of GW origin (for instance the similarity between Lucas's ATSTs and Sentinels), a court may rule that GW can not claim ownership or exclusivity of the design. It is even possible that GW would be reluctant to attract the attention of Lucas for this very reason.

2. Some things are mythological and predate GW by centuries too. The idea of elves, dwarves, spirits etc are all public domain and are largely similar the world over. This is not a likeness GW can legitimately claim ownership of, which is why Black Tree are safe. The stuff that is a distinct likeness that they produce, such as the old Harlequin Doctor Who range, are to the best of my knowledge licensed.

pullsyjr
24-06-2005, 10:42
So tanks aren't an established entity? But I've seen some before! Clarkson raced against one in a Land Rover...

Yes, they're similar (even in name) but really, don't all tanks bear similarities to each other? Big, square, with a turret on top.

FoolsJourney
24-06-2005, 10:54
don't all tanks bear similarities to each other? Big, square, with a turret on top[QUOTE]
yes they do. with plasma cannons and twin linked las cannons in the side sponsons. The Gulf war was full of 'em.

Sorry if that sounds sarcastic, but there is no problem with anyone producing a generic tank. Toy shops the world over are littered with them. Nothing wrong with making them the same scale. You could maybe at a push even get away with the name Imperial Guard if you included the flags and markings of a country that actually calls its army the Imperial Guard (like I believe Saddam used to).

These aren't generic tanks. They are quite clearly copies, and any alterations are subtle enough that the manufacturers think they've done enough to get away with it.

Cloudscape_online
24-06-2005, 11:05
Is this a Polish forum?

No but the server is in germany, so shouldn't we all be speaking german?

Sprachen sie deutsch?

FoolsJourney
24-06-2005, 11:55
The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy.

The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expected to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the language is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords containing "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

Angelus Mortis
24-06-2005, 12:07
Weak argument. Not as weak as your imaginary car copy argument though. You claim that if Mistubishi produced an imaginary near copy of the Ford Mustang that Ford (like the GW and Snifdog situation) could sue away the problem. Gaze upon the following link...

http://www.erareplicas.com/fia/fia.htm

This company states that they are in no way affiliated with the original manufacturer of the car although they openly display the names. Then they go on to highlight how exact their copy is. All of this in the USA where the copyright/patent/"IP" laws are some of the toughest in the world. A quick Google search will reveal the existence of many of these companies that produce replica cars (some stand alone, some kits to modify existing cars) none of which seem to have been put out of business by the companies that created the original.

Open Challenge: If anyone can find a single case where GW has gone to court and won against another company for copyrigh/patent/IP violations (legal sounding letters and out-of-court settlements don't count) I will send to you a brand new shiny nickel with your choice of "old school pony tail" Jefferson or the new "extreme close-up" Jefferson.I don't see the car companies logos or metion of them anywhere except in the disclaimer for one. Second, I do believe I mentioned that Patent do expire. And I'm pretty certain that those cars patents have all expired. :rolleyes: Nice try, but your fired. Never realized so many people had such a hard time comprehending entire posts. They always seem to filter out everything but one or two lines.

And as for your challenge, its going to be pretty hard to find. Do you really think GW would take someone to court if it wasn't absolutely certain, as determined by their lawyers, that they had a case. That being said, do you really think, a small mom and pop who is violating their IP/Patent/Copyright has the funds or gumption to go to court and argue its their right to clone GWs stuff illegally? Come on man. Wake up.

Inquisitor Samos
24-06-2005, 12:34
The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility.

As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would become known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, "s" will replace the soft "c". Sertainly, this will make the sivil servants jump with joy.

The hard "c" will be dropped in favour of "k". This should klear up konfusion, and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome "ph" will be replaced with "f". This will make words like fotograf 20% shorter.

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expected to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkourage the removal of double letters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling.

Also, al wil agre that the horibl mes of the silent "e" in the language is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th yer peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing "th" with "z" and "w" with "v".

During ze fifz yer, ze unesesary "o" kan be dropd from vords containing "ou" and after ziz fifz yer, ve vil hav a reil sensibl riten styl.

Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech oza. Ze drem of a united urop vil finali kum tru.

.....! BaHAAAHAHAhahahah!!! *snort* *sniffle*

*ahem!* Stop it, that's just wrong.

But funny nonetheless! :p

Angelus Mortis
24-06-2005, 12:36
.....! BaHAAAHAHAhahahah!!! *snort* *sniffle*

*ahem!* Stop it, that's just wrong.

But funny nonetheless! :pI just read that thru too. That is awesome! I laughed till my cheeks hurt. :p :D

Pertinax
24-06-2005, 12:50
Guys, is there any more to add to the original topic of discussion? If not, I think this thread has run its course.

*points at Wastes* Spam goes there.

Grumnir
24-06-2005, 12:52
Funny. Exactly the same thing that I hear from the guys buying pirated softare.
No that would imply recasts and/or the minis being provided for free (and if that were the case i can't imagine anyone having a problem with them ;))

Something which occurs quite frequently in the software world is taking inspiration from the market leader/most successful product and re-using ideas... often adding features and/or... wait for it... reducing price :eek:

As has been bashed about many times previously on this set of forums GW can hardly claim originality for many of their concepts - which is more obvious i'll admit in Fantasy - so we can hardly get too stuck in regarding a lack of originality. NB lets keep the discussion on the Snifdog case though rather than going off into GWs 'inspiration'.

sniffdog
24-06-2005, 14:48
Oh yes. La Rousse is a coincidence. The Heavy Bolters are just coincidential similarity. The baneblade is in fact inspired by the New Zealand Killer Sheep . To sum it up - pull the other one.
Wrong, NZ killer sheep is in production stage.
Super Havy Tank that you notoriously mixing up with GW banblade is inspired by something more mechanical

Trench_Raider
24-06-2005, 15:58
To those that have pointed out that these things are not much of a savings over the actual GW model allow me to point out one positive aspect.

Buying them (assuming you agree with me that these are legal copies and not an example of piracy) makes damn sure that not one cent of the money you spend on that tank goes to GW. Even in the case of buying second hand, the original purchaser permitted GW SOME profit. these eliminate that quite nicely and represent yet another legal way to screw GW.

Also, allow me to ask one question for those who are against these things. How would you react to an opponent who put one of these things on the table in front of you?
Childishly refuse to play him?
Berate him for not being loyal to the "GW hobby"?
Mutter under your breath and drive on?
Understand that he made a different choice than you would have in a similar situation and get down to playing the game?

"Trench Raider"

Nurglitch_PS
24-06-2005, 16:07
Buying them (assuming you agree with me that these are legal copies and not an example of piracy) makes damn sure that not one cent of the money you spend on that tank goes to GW.

How is that a good thing? Do you like the product? If so, support the manufacturer as he is doing his job well. Don't you like the product? Than bloody stop playing it.



Also, allow me to ask one question for those who are against these things. How would you react to an opponent who put one of these things on the table in front of you?
Childishly refuse to play him?


Please answer this question - it has been phrased in the exactly same way you have phrased yours:
Will you finally stop beating your mother?

Ass you see there are only two wrong answers to this question and not a single good one. That's because the choice it gives is a false one. To make it more clear - the fact, that you support piracy and hate GW doesn't make the other positions "childish".

What would I do? Probably play against the opponent - this one time and never again. I'm not one for shows and rows but I also do not appreciate pirates and those, who buy from them.

Cloudscape_online
24-06-2005, 16:51
You know there is another way. You can support the Game without having to support the Company who created it. I support the 40K universe and all of its fluff, but that doesn't and shouldn't stop me from wanting to integrate Non-GW products into my models or army. I recently bought a £14.99 Halo 2 Warthog that is perfect scale for game of =I=. I am hoping to get gold of a Halo 2 Scorpion Tank and use it as a closed topped Basilisk for 40K, and all people I have talked to about it have said it was a cool concept. I can then paint it up in my army colours.

Maybe people would do better to think of SD tanks as cheap accurate Proxies of the actual tank, though it can't be used in tournament play.

boogle
24-06-2005, 21:53
i still feel that they fit nicely into the Gaunts Ghosts Infardi and Blood Pact Tanks

karneambara
24-06-2005, 23:10
i've had a look at the models and compared them to gw's and while there are similarities they are far from recasts. I say fair play to anyone who is willing to go up against gw and produce models of a decent standard. The fact that this thread has gone on for so long is a credit to the moddeler. If they were terrible models (like some other more well known alternatives to gw) we wouldn't care. I think its very hard not to be "influenced" by the gamesworkshop range in some way. They are the market leaders, but this guy is obviously trying his best to make some headway in what is essentially a monopoly market.

Give the guy a break! Gw won't sue him because it would be very dificult to prove that he has copied the models (he has to have actually COPIED them, not simply reproduced his own impression, if so no-one could scratch build tanks) and i say so what if they do look a little like gamesworkshops. Its not the end of the world. Infact i can't even imagine it denting gws profits. The fact that gw overprice is enough to drive people away anyway.

Trench_Raider
25-06-2005, 02:16
How is that a good thing? Do you like the product? If so, support the manufacturer as he is doing his job well. Don't you like the product? Than bloody stop playing it.

You must not be following my posts in the various pricing threads in GW general explaining how hurting GW as much as one can is a good thing. But there is room to both enjoy the game and despise the company that makes it.


Will you finally stop beating your mother?

Never..... :p Remember I'm a "brutal prison guard"!


What would I do? Probably play against the opponent - this one time and never again. I'm not one for shows and rows but I also do not appreciate pirates and those, who buy from them.

Even otherwise he was a decent chap and plesant to play against? :eyebrows:
That says loads, my friend.

"Trench Raider"

TenTailedCat
25-06-2005, 02:58
What would I do? Probably play against the opponent - this one time and never again. I'm not one for shows and rows but I also do not appreciate pirates and those, who buy from them.

That's really rather sad - you care more about GWs profits than about an actual person who'd want to play a game with you?

boogle
25-06-2005, 07:18
i thniks its childish not to play someone just because he bought these tanks

Hortwerth
25-06-2005, 08:26
Of all the IP business, there is one thing that cannot be protected by any sort of IP law:

Idea.

Everyone can take someone's idea and use it in something he/she makes. In fact, only a slightest touch of creativeness is enough to one product become different from the other when it comes to IP laws.

Copied software or media stuff just lacks this.

What we see (and some of us disaggree with) here is using the GW's idea for the tanks - but they are obviously scuplted differently. What SD doesn't do is using the 40k system to produce some rules and stats for the tanks - and that would be too much. Now nothing (except our imagination) implies that these tanks are meant to be used in GW's own game system.

Nurglitch_PS
25-06-2005, 15:20
You must not be following my posts in the various pricing threads in GW general explaining how hurting GW as much as one can is a good thing. But there is room to both enjoy the game and despise the company that makes it.

Yes, there is, provided someone treasures ideology more than the facts. GW is a provider of a product. If the product is good, than the provider is doing a good job. If the product is bad, than the provider is doing a bad job. It really is that simple.




Even otherwise he was a decent chap and plesant to play against?

Yes, even so. We can go together to the cinema, or just hang around, but I will not willingly play against a pirated army. For the very same reasons I routinely refuse to play online games against my friends if I know that they have a stolen copy of the game. Ethics is not something you can choose to have on Tuesday, but not on Wednesday. You either have it or you don't.

Taliesynkp
25-06-2005, 16:05
Yes, there is, provided someone treasures ideology more than the facts. GW is a provider of a product. If the product is good, than the provider is doing a good job. If the product is bad, than the provider is doing a bad job. It really is that simple.



Really? So when I buy clothing made by child labor in Asia it's ok as long as they are good cloths. Glad to know that.

Nurglitch_PS
25-06-2005, 16:09
Really? So when I buy clothing made by child labor in Asia it's ok as long as they are good cloths. Glad to know that.

Sorry, but I yet have to see a shirt with certificate of child labour. You never know that. If you want to act on suspicion, I'd recommend you to immediately disconnect from the Internet and from the civilisation - just about everything you use every day, from toothbrushes, through pants to computers and car parts is made in China - and a lot of this in the forced-labour camps.

Cloudscape_online
25-06-2005, 16:22
This is very quickly heading off topic... :rolleyes:

At the moment GW might be doing the right thing by not sueing (sp?) the @$$ off SD. I doubt GW wish to confirm the apparent 'Bully-boy' tactics that many feel it has used in the past to shut down other retailers. If so, they would be doing themselves quite a favour to not sue, right?

Here's a question to ponder:

If I had the patent (and technology) to make small devices that would make holograms, would it be illegal for people to take photos of GW tanks and create holograms of GW tanks for use on the tabletop battlefield? Would I get sued by GW, and if so, why? Or why not?

In the same vein, should Plastic/resin producers be sued for supply of materials which could be used to make replica GW products? Does a Company need to have a monopoly on a particular Raw material and Genre to secure manufacturing rights?


Just a thought...

Lord Tyran
25-06-2005, 16:49
More power to them, the bases are very nice
I do find it funny that people on here moan about the price rises and such then jump up and defend the company that is sucking out thier souls when somingthing else comes along.

I dont Care 1 Iota about GW.

EVIL INC
25-06-2005, 16:51
The way this thread is going, it looks as though evryone who has created thier own versions fo gw products should be put in jail. This includes,
1. using using greenstuff to convert models to look like other models
2. using "toys" or toy trucks to represent models that gw produces or even things that gw does not have models for but has rules for
3. using paint schemes that even slightly resemble paint schemes used by gw
4. use models made by other companies to represent models that gw has made.
5. produces miniature wargames because gw has the only rights to wargames and miniature making
6. the list goes on and on and on

The fact is, people and companies DO have the right to make models that are similer to gw models. after all, we dont see gw getting sued for the things they have "ripped off" other authers/compainies (which equals everything they have ever produced).
If you refuse to play anyone who uses models made by other companies or who have taken the time to convert thier models, then you are not really someone I would wish to play against anyways.
If GW really wanted to do the right thing, they would not stoop to trying to put anyone else who competes with them out of business in the courts, they would do it the honest way and produce better quality stuff for competative prices.

I love the 40k universe and game. I even loved the company when it was run by gamers for gamers and was honest. Now, even though I love what they produce, I despise the way they treat customers and people in general. That is why I have no problems with using models made by other companies, converted models or even toys that resemble models.

Back on topic...the producers of these models mentioned in this thread, have every right to make and produce thier models. However, on a different note, they should not actually name thier models the same as the ones in the gw rules. That is indeed tacky and might possibly be sueable for copyright. They would be better off giving them a generic name and having an addition on the package/website that says something like this..."usable as a *insert name of model made by gw here*,*insert name of model made by company X here*, and *name of model made by company Y here*." giving each other company full credit for thier work.

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
26-06-2005, 00:21
Say that one of you designed some miniatures for sale and you found that some one was selling similar ones to your designs with subtle changes and was selling them cheaper than you, would you be happy?

Grand_Marshal_Kazan
26-06-2005, 00:33
Pig Iron productions (http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/) ]



http://www.pig-iron-productions.com/products.htm

The top tank looks like it would be great for Tau Human Auxiliaries.

Brandir
26-06-2005, 08:41
It is not only GW that suffer from pirates.

I was at a wargames show a few years ago (Fantasy Partizan). While I was at a traders stand I overheard the proprietor and his colleague discussing how a rival was using their models as the basis for new models. I then followed the proprietor to see his confrontation with his rival. An 'interesting' discussion ensued which ended with the proprietor leaving, unsatisfied with the result, with aparting shot 'you will be hearing from my lawyer'.

A few months later I noticed that the rival had removed a range of minis from his line.

Looking at the minis the proprietor's minis were clearly being used as the basis for his rival's minis (exact same legs and poses with just little differences such as weapons and equipment).

Whether lawyers were involved or not is unonown to me, but it was clear from this incident that GW are not the only manufacturer to suffer from pirates.

Jonathan =I=
26-06-2005, 08:55
However Sniffdog doesent use modified GW models as his basis.

Trench_Raider
26-06-2005, 16:07
Nurglitch_PS- Not trying to take this off topic, but allow me to make a point regarding your (in my opinion) simplistic view that if a company's product is high qaulity, that's the end of it. National Vanguard Books carries a number of hard to find history and political texts that I would love to read. These include some reprints of works that have been out of print for years and are almost impossible to find elsewere. The problem is that they are owned and operated by the West Virginia based Neo-Nazi group The National Alliance. Now one could say that they offer a high quality product, but due to the fact that I disagree with large portions of the National Alliance's message, I'm not going to be sending them any money. (that and I don't feel like ending up on a goverment "watch list")

So I say once again, you can appreciate product without suporting those who provide it.

Also from the same poster:

Yes, even so. We can go together to the cinema, or just hang around, but I will not willingly play against a pirated army. For the very same reasons I routinely refuse to play online games against my friends if I know that they have a stolen copy of the game. Ethics is not something you can choose to have on Tuesday, but not on Wednesday. You either have it or you don't.

That is so very noble of you...
Ethics are all well and good and bully for you in your refusal to support piracy. (even if Sniffdog's products are not examples of piracy) However it sounds to me as if you are taking it too far. You are projecting your ethics onto others or attempting to discipline them rather than holding yourself to your own code.
But in the end, it's your decision I suppose....

"Trench Raider"

Freak Ona Leash
26-06-2005, 18:14
:wtf: Who the hell is trying to apply ethics in conjuntcion with GW? Oh. My. GOD! Its a game buddy! So, if I played you in WHFB with my Albion army that is completly made up of Old Glory and Essex minis would you play me once and never again? Would you preach to me on "ethics" Pah, you are childish for calling those who use different minis unethical pirates Nurglitch. :rolleyes: There is nothing wrong with SD miniatures, they just look similar. Go here http://www.blacktreedesign.com/ . Look at there SciFi range. Look at the starship marines. Are they "pirates" because they have chainswords and powered armor that looks like maximillian styled plate armor? No they arent. And SD's minis arent pirated because they look like Baneblades and Leman Russes. Over to you Trench ;)

x-esiv-4c
26-06-2005, 18:19
Although BlackTree designs "Slaughterball" line looks a lot like bloodbowl.

Brimstone
26-06-2005, 18:38
Pah, you are childish for calling those who use different minis unethical pirates Nurglitch.

Lets calm things down please and avoid the name calling.

Cloudscape_online
26-06-2005, 23:16
I guess at the end of the day, the manufacture of models depends on rulesets and descriptions of units for certain games. If there was another game that used war engines that were described as 'behemoth tanks' with super-cannons and regular cannons and then heavy weaponry, there would be nothing to stop SD supplying people with those tanks. I think SD's error was with modelling Heavy machine guns that were distinctly Similar to Heavy Bolters. If they supplied the sponson weapons as separate pieces that were attached in a similar fashion to the GW tanks sponson weapons, then the onus would be on the purchaser to decide to attach GW heavy bolters to the Super Tank and use it for GW games.

If that made no sense, I'm very sorry but I'm a bit drunk at the moment. I'll probably look at this tomorrow and try to remember WTF it was that I was trying to say, lol.

Lord Malachi
26-06-2005, 23:44
I don't see the car companies logos or metion of them anywhere except in the disclaimer for one. Second, I do believe I mentioned that Patent do expire. And I'm pretty certain that those cars patents have all expired. :rolleyes: Nice try, but your fired. Never realized so many people had such a hard time comprehending entire posts. They always seem to filter out everything but one or two lines.

And as for your challenge, its going to be pretty hard to find. Do you really think GW would take someone to court if it wasn't absolutely certain, as determined by their lawyers, that they had a case. That being said, do you really think, a small mom and pop who is violating their IP/Patent/Copyright has the funds or gumption to go to court and argue its their right to clone GWs stuff illegally? Come on man. Wake up.

Obviously you must be either illiterate or too lazy to view an entire webpage. There are numerous mentions of the Shelby Cobra and other models on the site I mentioned. The names of automobile models aren't patented, they are copyrighted and seeing as Shelby continues to design and build newer versions of the Cobra and other vehicles I doubt that the copyrights to his brand names have expired.

If GW's IP infringement cases had any legal weight to them there would be at least one judgement in their favor. Armchair lawyers and the opinions of GW groupies simply don't count. If someone fails to defend themselves in court against GW doesn't mean that GW is in the right, all it means is that they can't or won't. If you get hit with a frivolous lawsuit in the US you can't get compensated for legal costs even if you win and the case is proven to have no merit. So it is in the interest of a big company to threaten a suit against someone who can't afford the legal costs of defending themselves.

Apparently the GW groupies of the world choose to be snobs towards anyone who plays 40k without using GW models. That is their choice.

GW models for the most part are not completely original creations. They take "inspiration" from real world vehicles and characters. Snifdog's models are not "pirated copies" of GW products. Every arguement that Snifdog is "pirating" GW models is bogus. Pirating or bootlegging a product (eg: movies, music, software, books, etc.) is when a COPY of a product is made and sold. A copy is a duplicate of something, not a "similar to" or "inspired by" product.

GW has encouraged compitition (black market AND legal) because of the demand for models to use in their games. Their high prices (regardless of reason/justification) only increase the pressure on the market to fulfill that demand. If GW produced the best models at the best prices they wouldn't have companies like Snifdog and others making models aimed at gamers who play GW games.

GW is similar to Microsoft in their business practices. They don't make the best products at the best prices, they simply dominate the current marketplace by due to their size. Remember that General Motors once dominated the US car market. High prices and low quality have doomed them. Their market share has been slipping for years and continues to slide down. GW groupies remind me of the "Buy American" crowd that decried the Japanese car in the 70's and 80's. Look at Toyota and Honda sales vs the number of "Buy American" bumper stickers still stuck on the bumpers of rusted out El Caminos and you will get a feel for the future of GW if they don't make an effort to bring prices down.

I love 40k and take my hat off to the guys at GW (and those who have wisely left) who created the core game of 40k. But I won't be a groupie and insist that only GW models are acceptable no matter how outrageous the cost. I like most of GW's models, but if I find a better model to use I'll buy it and use it.

Brimstone
27-06-2005, 04:44
Obviously you must be either illiterate or too lazy to view an entire webpage.

:rolleyes:

Flame anybody again and you'll get a strike.

Thread Closed.