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Hrw-Amen
27-05-2009, 20:38
Assuming a Tyranid Hive fleet, or part of one attacked a planet ruled by one of the Chaos Powers, but that the hive fleet was defeated in space with only part of its ground forces deployed, do you think it would be viable given that the hive mind link was broken for the remaining gaunts and other non-synapse creatures to be tainted by chaos?

I am assuming that they would, unless killed in battle or whatever, survive in a similar manner to other apparently 'nid related creatures such as the Catachan Devil and that old Carniflex, what was his name, old one eye, or whatever.

Given that they had no link to the hive mind would a chaos sorcerer or pysker or even a daemon prince be able to bend them to the cause, creating things like plague biovores, or khornite gaunts and the like. Perhaps even a Soul Grinder with the body of a Hive Tyrant or something. (I assume even a Hive Tyrant cut off from the Hive Mind for any lenght of time would become suseptable.)

DapperAnarchist
27-05-2009, 21:10
Not really... they could possibly be possessed (not the Synapses - they ARE the Hive Mind, in total, but the Hive Mind is not weakened by their loss [The Hive MIND, not the Hive]), but not turned, as they would be only animals, not able to provide the intellectual engagement required for being turned to Chaos.

Maidel
27-05-2009, 21:28
I think thats a very good point, you dont seem to get demonic animals, and that is what a non-synapse tyranid creature is.

Chaos feed on emotions and wants, needs - a creature that has none of them has no chance of falling to chaos.

Chaos tyranids is an utterly mute point and should go the same way as 'chaos grey knights'

BramGaunt
27-05-2009, 21:30
I'd say though Tyranids are soulless, they cannot be turned. It might be possible for Tzeentch zto somehow confuse som lesser hive creatures, though.

Maidel
27-05-2009, 21:37
I'd say though Tyranids are soulless, they cannot be turned. It might be possible for Tzeentch zto somehow confuse som lesser hive creatures, though.

Well yes - but thats just saying that they can be affected by the physical manifestations of daemonic power - which isnt the same as them 'turning' to chaos.

Lothlanathorian
27-05-2009, 21:40
There are Chaos hounds. I could see gaunts left behind being turned into something similar.

Firaxin
27-05-2009, 23:33
Chaos Hounds are the physical representations our minds create for a certain type of daemon.

Not an animal turned to chaos.

Mannimarco
27-05-2009, 23:35
WHFB chaos hounds are just mutated hounds, not sure about 40k though

Quetch
27-05-2009, 23:53
all things can be corrupted by the taint of chaos. they don’t even have to be alive to be chaotic, so mere animals could easily be chaotic. I’m not so sure about possession, as their minds work differently to that of other creatures; but chaos could probably feed them false commands through their synapse network to make them do its bidding.

And then ofcourse there's the old khorne/genestealer cults:

DoomedFuture
28-05-2009, 00:08
Isn't the FW Spined Chaos Beast the result of warp exposure to non-sentient fauna? If so, "stranded" tyranids and tau would most likely end up a near mindless violent predator. Not like you'd notice a change in the tyranid's behavior.

MasterDecoy
28-05-2009, 02:44
genestealer cults uset to be able to be upgraded to chaos genestealer cults back in RT.

also remeber some fluff about a nid ship beeing corrupted and turned to chaos.

Firaxin
28-05-2009, 04:16
A tyranid hiveship was injected and turned with the obliterator virus.

Genestealers are self-aware/sentient, so they wouldn't apply to the animals thing. There have been instances in fluff (not just the rules) of chaos genestealers, like the Ragnar series.

However. Animals certainly feel fear, and rage, and lust. They don't have to be sentient; it's emotions that feed the dark gods.

Dunno if an animal can feel hope. That's a bit beyond them, I think. But khorne/nurgle/slaanesh would be fair game, I guess.

Plus I think there are instances of chaos-affected animals in the Gaunts Ghosts series.

Lothlanathorian
28-05-2009, 04:22
I don't know about in the Gaunt's Ghosts books. I could be wrong, but I don't remember anything that wasn't some kind of Warp-fueled construct, like the tank-lion and the Wire-Wolves.

Firaxin
28-05-2009, 04:27
Wait, that was it. A wire-wolf. Nevermind.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2009, 05:14
But here is the thing. Chaos needs you to make a choice to turn to them. You don't have to know that is the choice you are making or even know that you are making a choice at all. But you have to choose Chaos somewhere along the line. That's really the true horror of Chaos. All it's followers have at some point or another chosen to be that.

Tyranids, even stranded ones would never do that. They might fight as part of a Chaos warband if you can find some means to control them. They might be mutated into some half demonic creature or other horror but they will not be Chaos followers.

dooombot
28-05-2009, 07:14
what if the Hive Mind turned to Chaos?


whoa. I just blew your mind.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2009, 08:01
Why would it? It's at least as powerful as the Chaos gods and since it's a psychic entity that have an entire race slaved to it and effective immortality already what would it stand to gain?

And of course, it might not even be able to. It might just be so completely alien that they are incompatible. Chaos is very much a product of our Galaxy. The Nids are not.

Talos
28-05-2009, 10:32
Chaos Hounds are the physical representations our minds create for a certain type of daemon.

Not an animal turned to chaos.

Not really, in WFB there are Chaos hounds and in IA:6 siege of Vraks part 2 there are Chaos hounds again, which are daemonic but just normal hounds corrupted by Chaos powers.

Earthbeard
28-05-2009, 14:20
Chaos corrupts none reasoning flora & fauna as much as reasoning ones, so I couldn't see any reason why if tyranids are stranded they wouldn't be altered/corrupted.

It's not like tyranids are immune to chaos influence any more than a cow is.

Quetch
28-05-2009, 14:38
would you really notice if a tyranid turned chaotic? i mean, its not like a few extra tentacles would go amiss, and their already hyperviolent and attack anything they see; so whats the real difference?

The_Warsmith
28-05-2009, 15:07
stranded tyranids wouldn't choose to be chaotic (hell they don't choose to work for the hive mind either) but they could be forced, come on who doesn't think an ogryn bezerker riding a carnifex is a cool idea :p

Mannimarco
28-05-2009, 15:12
how bout the forgeoworld khornate beastmaster leading some carnifexes instead of hounds? id play that lol

Adramalech
28-05-2009, 15:18
Eh, it's not impossible as far as I know for a group or even horde of non-synapse Tyranids, if isolated from the hivemind long enough, to fall under the control of a Powerful Psyker, be it chaos or otherwise. The Introduction of sentient and chosen worship of the chaos gods, however, is impossible. the Psyker might be able to make them perform worship, or even mutate their bodies so that the might be somewhat Khornite, Slaaneshi or what have you, but they are still only extensions of the Psyker's Will. So it is actually the Psyker that is worshiping the Chaos Gods through his flesh-puppets, not the Tyranids themselves. Aside from that puzzle being put together, I'm also quite sure that with time and/or procreation, the Tyranids would end up adapting to the Psychic Influence of the Sorcerer or Daemon Prince, would invariably become immune to the telepathic signals given by said Psyker and possibly even adapt to the absence of a Synapse-Creature as well and end up becoming a new, more independent sub-race of Tyranids. Though the Latter is incredibly Improbable (Like a 0.00000000000001% chance), it is still wholly possible.

Lothlanathorian
28-05-2009, 16:36
I don't think that the ones enslaved would adapt, only their progeny. The Hive Mind hyper-evolves organisms, they don't just sprout wings by themselves because the individual suddenly needs them.

Also, I am doing a conversion of a Carnifex for my Orks to use in Apocalypse. I am gonna have something like a receiver built into its head and it will be radio controlled by a mek.

Adramalech
28-05-2009, 17:07
I don't think that the ones enslaved would adapt, only their progeny. The Hive Mind hyper-evolves organisms, they don't just sprout wings by themselves because the individual suddenly needs them.

Also, I am doing a conversion of a Carnifex for my Orks to use in Apocalypse. I am gonna have something like a receiver built into its head and it will be radio controlled by a mek.That's a pretty interesting Idea. I guess I have to agree. Adaptations would have to be made by the enslaved Tyranids' offspring/progeny/descendants.

Hrw-Amen
28-05-2009, 18:03
I was not nesseceraly trying to suggest that they would actually become worshippers or followers of the chaos powers, more just that could they be used by them. For example as a pack in a similar manner to the hounds maybe controled by a pysker or daemon or whatever.

I am not so convinced though that the bodies would not be able to be corrupted. I am also thinking of the Gaunts Ghost novels where an entire planets eco system is tainted, right down to the moss if I remember? I am sure if moss can be corrutped then so can gaunts. (Even if they aren't in a ghosts novel!)

Maidel
28-05-2009, 19:47
Ok - couple of things here.

1) Chaos hounds. Yea, sure, if you leave a creature in a 'warp rich' environment for generations they will start to mutate. They havent 'turned to chaos' - they might well have grown an extra ear or have a tenticle for a tail - but that is just a representation of the mutating effects of chaos, rather than the concious decision to 'fall'. Not to mention that tyranids dont 'breed' (Appart from genestealers mentioned below)

2) Khornite genestealer cults. Well - yes - this is possible. Why? Well its not the genestealers that have initally fallen - its the human/hybrids which have fallen initally. Potentiallly isolated from the hive mind this could produce weird 4th generation genestealers - but im not sure. It isnt however, a natural genestealer thats fallen to chaos.

3) Genestealers being 'intellegent/Self aware. Yes, to a point. They are problem solving individual thinkers, as apposed to mindless hive drones. This DOESNT mean they are intellegent and it certainly doesnt prove they are self aware. EG - one of the tests for self awareness is can the creature recognise itself in a mirror - franklly, i doubt it, its an utter irrelavence to them. They dont have individual needs and wants, they dont 'care' about family, they dont yearn for wealth, they cant be 'turned' in any way - they simply are not fodder for chaos in any shape or form.

4) None of the individual tyranids are 'souled' creatures. Possibly the Hive mind is one HUGE soul - but individually they are about as much interrest to chaos as a tree.

Lothlanathorian
28-05-2009, 20:01
Well trees get mutated :p


I figured if they were exposed to Chaos long enough, they would mutate, just like the CSMs. It didn't take them breeding for generations to mutate.

And as far as Tyranids breeding, see: Catachan Devil (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Catachan_Devil).

Maidel
28-05-2009, 20:16
Well trees get mutated :p


I figured if they were exposed to Chaos long enough, they would mutate, just like the CSMs. It didn't take them breeding for generations to mutate.

And as far as Tyranids breeding, see: Catachan Devil (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Catachan_Devil).

Yea - trees get mutated, but they having 'fallen to chaos'

I suppose the best way of thinking about it is comparing someone who makes nuclear waste to the products of it. If you dump a load of nuclear waste (chaos marine) then the local fawna and flora will 'mutate' but they havent become a nuclear powered plant.

The way of thinking about chaos space marines mutating and local plants mutating is this.

The plant wont mutate on its own - it has to be subjected to an outside mutagenic source (evil temple, eye of terror, warp portal whatever) Without that source it wont mutate. A chaos space marine will 'mutate' whereever he is - he is his own source (yes some of them dont mutate, but i feel thats up to the god if he wants them to or not).


And finally - catchan devil. Sorry, I should have included ALL scouting organisms, not just genestealers. Anything that has been separated from the hive mind (like the catchan devil) had has grown into its own ecosystem will fall under the 'flora and fauna' above - as in they can be mutated like other plants and animals in the prescence of chaos, but dont fall to chaos and mutate themselves.

Lothlanathorian
28-05-2009, 20:22
Okay, you very much make plenty of sense and I believe that is somewhat like what the original post was asking.

Not really 'can they fall' so much 'could they be use by'.

And they idea of a sorceror or maybe a cabal of them controlling them by using Chaos as a Hive Mind replacement does sound interesting.

Maidel
28-05-2009, 20:32
Not really 'can they fall' so much 'could they be use by'.

And they idea of a sorceror or maybe a cabal of them controlling them by using Chaos as a Hive Mind replacement does sound interesting.

Well No - they coudnt be used by chaos IN PRINCIPAL.

However that has some caviats attached.


A hive minded ship/brood/army could never be used by chaos (save teezench 'guiding' them because that sneaky bugger claims all the things that happen were his idea...) This is because the hive mind is too strong.

A lone brood of tyranids dont live long enough separated from the hive. Ive read somewhere that they dont even 'eat' they are designed to be living weapons so gaunts/nids etc could never even be corrupted by chaos.


The only instance that makes any sense is the rogue genestealer cult.

Hrw-Amen
28-05-2009, 20:39
Yes, that is exactly it. Could they be 'used' for want of a better word by chaos. It really would not matter whether they were aware of it or not I guess. As has been said they are reasonably violent to start with, but not only that as they are pretty much designed for rending etc then they are a ready made weapon and if they are just wandering around and available then why not put them to use if you have a powerful enough chaos sorcerer/pysker or whoever who can do it.

The idea of Orks using a Carniflex via a remote control is interesting, however, they would have to be careful. I can forsee a similar scenario to when the Predators in Primeval were being operated via a kind of remote control. All well and good until someone rips it out of the skull or it malfunctions, gets taken out by a sniper or whatever. Then the Orks would be in real trouble!

Lothlanathorian
28-05-2009, 20:47
Oh yes, I plan on creating a datasheet for Apocalypse for it. I plan on having the possibilities of malfunction and such (think Kharn, but Carnifex...a Kharnifex HA HA HA lame). And I will have the handler on the board, separately, kind of like Tau sniper drones. I'll save it all for when I actually get around to it, though.


Now, what if Chaos, IG and a small Tyranid splinter fleet were on a planet fighting. Let's say the Hive Fleet gets chased away but leaves Gaunts all over the planet. Now they revert to being crazy wild animals. Could the Chaos Magi there use their powers to mimic the Hive Mind (or something similar) to take control of them or guide them in some fashion so as to make use of them without endangering themselves (other than having daemons eat their brains)?

Leftenant Gashrog
28-05-2009, 21:26
2) Khornite genestealer cults. Well - yes - this is possible. Why? Well its not the genestealers that have initally fallen - its the human/hybrids which have fallen initally. Potentiallly isolated from the hive mind this could produce weird 4th generation genestealers - but im not sure. It isnt however, a natural genestealer thats fallen to chaos.

3) Genestealers being 'intellegent/Self aware. Yes, to a point. They are problem solving individual thinkers, as apposed to mindless hive drones. This DOESNT mean they are intellegent and it certainly doesnt prove they are self aware. EG - one of the tests for self awareness is can the creature recognise itself in a mirror - franklly, i doubt it, its an utter irrelavence to them. They dont have individual needs and wants, they dont 'care' about family, they dont yearn for wealth, they cant be 'turned' in any way - they simply are not fodder for chaos in any shape or form.


Genestealers might not care for specific family members or crave economic wealth, but they do crave as large and powerful a brood as possible, the old RT Genestealer Cult list (which was by definition a chaos list - non-chaos broods were covered by the Invasion and Clan lists) stated that due to the simple nature of Genestealers they are rarely if ever seduced into chaos worship for emotional reasons, but that the patriarch of a failing brood may turn to chaos in exchange for power it will grant.

The art for chaos-genestealer cults always favoured Khorne, but neither the fluff nor the army list gave them any more commonality than any other chaos god.

DapperAnarchist
28-05-2009, 22:49
Some gaunts can feed - hormagants (sp?) I recall being among them... However, even without that, the left over stragglers, isolated from the Hive Mind, could be kept alive by the Chaos leader-type - I can imagine Bile or one of his compatriots doing stuff like that in exchange for keeping some of them, or perhaps some synapse corpses.

Maidel
28-05-2009, 23:39
could be kept alive by the Chaos leader-type - I can imagine Bile or one of his compatriots doing stuff like that in exchange for keeping some of them, or perhaps some synapse corpses.

Yea - but you might as well ask 'can chaos type people use cow corpses to create animated 'chaos cows'

Its not really the same as chaos tyranids.

Verm1s
29-05-2009, 00:02
I'm generally with Maidel on this. Also:



3) Genestealers being 'intellegent/Self aware. Yes, to a point. They are problem solving individual thinkers, as apposed to mindless hive drones. This DOESNT mean they are intellegent and it certainly doesnt prove they are self aware.

IIRC old genestealer cult fluff, an average genestealer, off on it's own with no hive mind link, is as intelligent as a dog. A society-infiltrating genestealer that eventually becomes the patriarch of a cult develops human-level intelligence and beyond, in the process.

Catachan devils: personally I didn't like that bit of fluff at all, when I saw it in the current nid codex. I mean, I like nids, but the dex gave the impression that every dangerous, vaguely chitinous creature in the galaxy is some kind of tyranid scout or disconnected straggler. It makes the 40K galaxy a bit smaller, and has the same kind of stink as all those 'the C'tan did it' hints and retcons.

Can't it just be some kind of independent giant-scorpion-monster that just happens to be native to Catachan? What's next? Are ambulls, grox and clawed fiends going to turn out to be tyranids?

Lothlanathorian
29-05-2009, 02:18
I am not a fan of the Devil being a Tyranid, either, but it served my purposes here lol

Eumerin
29-05-2009, 06:46
Can't it just be some kind of independent giant-scorpion-monster that just happens to be native to Catachan? What's next? Are ambulls, grox and clawed fiends going to turn out to be tyranids?

Don't you know? We've been visited by HUNDREDS!!!!11! of hive fleets in the past that seeded the galaxy with every voracious life from - from ambulls to praying mantises!!!1!

Yes, it does get a bit old and annoying. How many of these previous Tyranid "scouting" *cough*yeahright*cough* fleets have their been, and how did they all get wiped out when even a teeny tiny group from the current fleets is supposed to be extremely nasty?

Given the number of "ancient" tyrannid fleets that keep turning up and how old some of them must be, I figure that it'll be at least another 50,000 years before the REAL Tyrannid fleet turns up.


On another note, I always figured the controlling intelligence of the Hive Mind as a variant on the Chaos Powers - albeit one that is different from our Fab Four. Each of the Fab Four is tied to an excess of something - and the Hive Mind seems to be consumed by an excess of "hunger".