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Warsurge
28-05-2009, 04:55
Why in the world was Magnus considered an enemy when he tried to help the Imperium from civil war? All he did was break one rule which was not to use telepathy. He did to warn the Emperor to prevent more harm. As far as I saw it I thought it was a great deed, while others think it was heresy.

Do you think that he was a heretic for doing what he did? Do you think the outcome of the Heresy would be way different if the Thousand Sons were on the loyalist side?

Surgency
28-05-2009, 05:08
Cause he blew up most of the Emperors anti-psychic wards in the palace, by doing something the emperor specifically told him not to do. I don't think the Emperor was going to expel him from the Imperium or anything so drastic, just give him a seriously stern talking to. It was Horus' words to Russ that got the Wolves to attack Prospero so dramatically, which in turn caused Magnus to seek refuge with Tzeentch

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2009, 05:09
He was branded a heretic for using sorcery, not telepathy. He tried to warn the Emperor using sorcery after the Emperor had specifically told Magnus and the Sons that sorcery is tainted by chaos and will inevitably lead you into trouble.

They considered themselves too good/clever for that and so continued there research/practice anyway.

So the Emperor received a message by means he know is tainted by Chaos(and that he have banned anyone from using) that his most trusted general is about to turn on him. The result is hardly surprising.

Could the Sons have fought on the side of the Imperium and against Horus during the Heresy? Possibly. In the end I don't think it made any difference. There quest for arcane knowledge and there supreme confidence in there own power and abilities would have seen them ensnared by Tzeentch at some point down the line. If you believe you are too clever and too powerful for your enemies to really be dangerous you are unlikely to show them enough respect. Just look at Ahriman. Despite all evidence to the contrary he still believes he can/is mastering chaos.
I'm sure Tzeentch gets a kick out of him.

Lexington
28-05-2009, 05:12
Well, he was a heretic, in so much as going against the word of the Emperor is considered heresy. Or, at least, it is nowadays. I believe the Emperor was fairly unhappy with such religious language being applied to him or the Imperium in general.

Still, I see Magnus as a tragic character, despite whatever ridiculous fiddlings Alan "Bane of 40K" Merrit might want to have with the story.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2009, 05:16
Oh sure, Magnus suffers from being the wrong person at the wrong place at the wrong time. I just don't think that the events of the Heresy ultimately made a difference for the Sons. It shaped the way they fell to Tzeentch, but they were going to end up there anyway.

starlight
28-05-2009, 05:27
Pretty much, although if they had stayed Loyal, who knows...maybe they'd have turned to worshipping the big E after he fell...? :shrug:

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 05:38
I personally don't think that Magnus is even actually working for chaos, I think he is pulling his own scheme against Tzeentch. Which would suit Tzeentch just fine because any scheme is a good one.

Lord of Worms
28-05-2009, 05:55
I personally don't think that Magnus is even actually working for chaos, I think he is pulling his own scheme against Tzeentch. Which would suit Tzeentch just fine because any scheme is a good one.

I think that sooner applies to Ahriman and his quest to become the 5th chaos power. On a slight tangent, I heard that post 13th Crusade, Magnus was impressed with Ahriman's achievements and is reconciling with him. Is this true? I missed out on the EoT campaign and can't get the WDs anywhere.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 06:03
From what I understand Ahriman has always worked for Magnus and was only exiled to appease the of sorcerers. Though I think they are openly buddy buddy know that Ahriman has been successful in his mission.
Was it to learn more to have the power to become a god? Or do they need more info before they destroy the chaos gods from the inside? Or do they need more info to turn the Big E into a new god?
Food for thought.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2009, 06:27
Actually Ahriman wasn't successful. He wanted to gain control of the Black Library and he failed in that. I don't think he managed to get anything out of it either. He came close, but he didn't succeed.

Lord of Worms
28-05-2009, 06:38
I heard (ever hushed) whispers ;) that he did get something out of it...{cue ominous conspiracy documentary music}

Condottiere
28-05-2009, 06:50
Magnus's downfall was hubris and impatience - he thought he was right and could deal with the resultant taint. Had he been able to practise patience, he might have discovered the means and protocols to utilize warp power relatively safely.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 07:43
Actually Ahriman wasn't successful. He wanted to gain control of the Black Library and he failed in that. I don't think he managed to get anything out of it either. He came close, but he didn't succeed.
I thought the mission was to find the black library (BL seems kind of shameless...ehhh..) not to take it over or steal from it. Its just as he was there and all why not try. Though really the BL is screwed cuz now Papa Magnus is going to go after it.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2009, 07:58
Ahriman wanted to plunder the Black Library to get the knowledge he needed. He found it, but was then defeated by the Eldars and the Guardians of the Library. Finding it doesn't get you anything, aside from maybe a Harlequin death squad on your tail. Reading all the knowledge about Chaos contained in it might just give you enough power to elevate yourself to a god. Or at least that was the plan.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 08:36
Ahriman wanted to plunder the Black Library to get the knowledge he needed. He found it, but was then defeated by the Eldars and the Guardians of the Library. Finding it doesn't get you anything, aside from maybe a Harlequin death squad on your tail. Reading all the knowledge about Chaos contained in it might just give you enough power to elevate yourself to a god. Or at least that was the plan.
Point is now they know where it is and can attack it with enough force. He was scouting so Magnus could take.

Nero
28-05-2009, 09:06
Emperor: Psychic powers are bad, never use them under any circumstances, even if the entire Imperium is threatened!

Magnus: Wow, this royally sucks. Having my city burnt to the ground was a bit extreme, but at least the Emperor isn't being hypocritical or anything...

*some time later*

Horus: Hyuk hyuk I r killing the Emperor.

Emperor: Wow this really hurts! I know, I'll use my psychic powers to defeat Horus. Huzzah, victory is mine!

Magnus: Dude, not cool.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-05-2009, 09:35
Point is now they know where it is and can attack it with enough force. He was scouting so Magnus could take.

I might have missed something, but I can't see Ahriman wanting to share it with Magnus. He doesn't seem like the sharing type to me. If Ahriman found a lead on something that powerful he will want it for himself.

Besides, he might not be able to find it again. It's not quite as easy as having a map with an X on it.


@Nero: The Emperor banned sorcery. Not psychic powers. The two can often be similar but there are differences. The Sons practiced (and still do) sorcery as well as used psychic powers. The Emperor warned them that sorcery doesn't lead to anything good and then banned it, but they was sure they knew better so continued it's use.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 09:40
I might have missed something, but I can't see Ahriman wanting to share it with Magnus. He doesn't seem like the sharing type to me. If Ahriman found a lead on something that powerful he will want it for himself.

Besides, he might not be able to find it again. It's not quite as easy as having a map with an X on it.


From what I get Ahriman is quite loyal to his primarch and his primarch does like Ahriman...hence he gave him the task of finding the BL, its cuz Ahriman could be trusted.
And I remember the BL being hard to find but it does actually have a set place in the webway so as long as Ahriman has a good memory (which it seems he would) then it shant be too hard to find it agian....though a bit better guarded I would bet.

Poseidal
28-05-2009, 10:20
Why would the Black Library be fixed in location?

It's described as a Craftworld; the whole point of Craftworlds are they are mobile and don't have the limitations of a fixed location; if it were fixed, it would be described as a webway-city like Commoragh.

It's likely Ahriman will never find it again.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 10:31
It's described as a Craftworld; the whole point of Craftworlds are they are mobile and don't have the limitations of a fixed location; if it were fixed, it would be described as a webway-city like Commoragh.

The black library is inside of the webway were the hariquins and soltaires (phoenix lords too) guard it.
Where has ever been described as a craftworld?
The only place I have ever seen it described is in Ian Watsons Inquisitions Wars and it was a library in the webway in a fixed location that could be found again.

Poseidal
28-05-2009, 10:45
In the codex, when it was first mentioned.

Said it was a craftworld, but unlike others it travelled the webway rather than realspace.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 10:49
See that doesn't make sense cuz the craftworlds don't travel in the webway because they don't fit so it can't be a craftworld and still travel in the webway.

Poseidal
28-05-2009, 10:53
See that doesn't make sense cuz the craftworlds don't travel in the webway because they don't fit so it can't be a craftworld and still travel in the webway.

How do you know how big it is? Craftworlds originally were trading vessels, but the ones that hold Craftworld Eldar (eg Biel-Tan, Saim-Hann etc) grew much much larger.

The Webway fits Eldar Superheavies and Titans by the army.

It has room for a small craftworld, provided it's not Biel-Tan size (for example) as it's just a vessel.

Note that we know large space-ships fit in the Webway as we see the imperial one in Commoragh which itself is dwarfed by the city-spires there.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 11:00
Read page 13 of the eldar codex (4th ed).
It says its spoken of as if it were a craftworld....though it isn't.
And it says you can find as long as you take the right paths (i.e. fixed location). Though it does travel through the webway so that unless you take the right paths you can not find it.

Poseidal
28-05-2009, 11:09
That page in the codex pretty much says it's specifically is a Craftworld.

And who says the paths aren't fluid? One part of that (mentioned on that page) is travelling through the Warp which you know can't be treated like a static real-space path.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 11:13
Have you read Inquisition Wars (its not that good...but)?
It does explain the whole some of the paths are warp oriented. Though they are more like doors to other planets then some where on that planet or system there is another door that takes you to the next part of the path. The places you go are fluid, in the book one has a war going on next to the door which was buried in the ground from time. It just if you know the secret paths they will take you to the black library.

Goq Gar
28-05-2009, 11:17
Many heroes of the imperium have broken the rules. It's the only way to get ahead in the galaxy.

If you break the rules and fail, you are a heretic and excuted. If you break the rules and succeed, you're a hero.

ex-green
28-05-2009, 11:19
Does breaking the words of the Emperor outweight the goodness of the message

Poseidal
28-05-2009, 11:21
Well, I assume that the Harlequins have it changed periodically - due to the nature of how Solitaires travel they are the only ones who always know it all the time.

In the original Harlequin fluff from one of the compilations/WD, only the Solitaires know all the time; even normal Harlequins didn't know.

Anyway, Ahriman will probably take a savage beating if he encounters a Phoenix Lord. Those guys are so much out of his league (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175788), he WILL need to run back to Magnus.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 11:32
Well, I assume that the Harlequins have it changed periodically - due to the nature of how Solitaires travel they are the only ones who always know it all the time.

I'm not sure if that is a fair statement. As the Eldar are not fond of change. New up and coming race in the galaxy..Ok kill em. Plus were talking about a race that hasn't advance tech wise in ages. So changing the location probably not, they are too arogant to think some one could break in....till Ahriman showed up. So maybe they will change the secret paths.

Anyway, Ahriman will probably take a savage beating if he encounters a Phoenix Lord. Those guys are so much out of his league, he WILL need to run back to Magnus.
No arguement their though I would say that Ahriman has got to be close to Eldrad in power these days (actually more so cuz Eldrads dead but thats a different story), but a Phoenix Lord should still beable to take him, or two if nessesary. Though Daemon Primarch Magnus is another story all thogether.

Poseidal
28-05-2009, 11:41
IMO Eldrad and Ahriman are 'powerful' because of their leadership and skill in manipulation / tactics.

They're strong psykers (as in blastin' or Doomin'), that's for sure; but raw fightyness is not where their main strength is.

DP Magnus vs Phoenix Lord will cause a huge storm, so it's probably best to leave those out.

MetalGecko23
28-05-2009, 11:48
DP Magnus vs Phoenix Lord will cause a huge storm, so it's probably best to leave those out.
Yah for the purposes of this thread Magnus and any Phoenix have never fought and will never fight so no one needs to worry about it.

Though Magnus would have never sided with Tzeentch if it wasn't for Horus changing the Emperors orders from, "Russ go fetch", to "Russ go kill".
Which makes me think Magnus new about Horus going bad so he should of seen Russ coming. Which to me says he is still faking the Chaos stuff.

ryng_sting
28-05-2009, 12:07
Magnus was a card-carrying naif who walked straight into Tzeentch's trap, ruined the Webway project...all after he was warned of the dangers of meddling with the warp.

Chaos targeted the Primarchs' virtues as well as their vices in order to snare them. Magnus's flaw was pride, the belief that he could always master the unknowable. All that happened was that the unknowable ended up mastering him.

Urath
28-05-2009, 13:19
He wasn't told what lurked in the warp, as far as he knew it was raw power to be commanded. The Emperor just warned him it was dangerous.

If the Emperor was honest with his sons, the Heresy could have been avoided. But he wasn't. I don't like the Emperor, it's basically his fault by doing too little to combat Chaos.

Locking himself in his dungeons to forge an Imperial Webway, while infinitley better than warp travel, it's not addressing the issues of the time; especially when his CLONES are running around the galaxy practically unprotected.