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bork da basher
15-06-2009, 17:06
i've just baught a VC army and im tweaking my lists a bit. i havent played undead since 3rd edition and only played against them twice in this edition so not too sure how i stand. i know its obviously done to death but i like magic heavy undead, i just dont know at 2000pts if it's too heavy.

caster lord, pretty standard set up, really want something in there to offer some protection. lvl1 vamp im going to try solo, causing terror with 18" charge and -3 to hit with shooting and a great weapon, he's my chariot/warmachine hunter and i really like the concept of him i just dont know if im investing my points in too risky a model. would it be better to go with another caster?

next i have a pair of necromancers riding corpsecarts which i want to put inside the skeleton units. not only will this bulk out the size of the unit and give the necros a measure of protection but will keep the carts bonus' where i want them.

so help me out with my charecter selection also any advice on the list in general would be helpful too.

Vampire lord / barded knightmare, dark acolyte, master of the black arts, book of arkhan, black periapt / 355

HEROES
Vampire / avatar of death, supernatural horror, talisman of lycni, armour of night / 180
Necromancer / extra spell, corpsecart / 145
Necromancer / extra spell , corpsecart / 145


CORE
18 ghouls / ghast / 152
14 skeletons / standard / 120 (necromancer)
14 skeletons / standard / 120 (necromancer)
5 dire wolves / 40

SPECIAL
18 graveguard / standard & champion / 240 (lord)

RARE
5 blood knights / standard, royal standard of strigos / 330 (lord)

Vargulf / 175

2002pts

11PD
7DD
3 Bound

Spirit
16-06-2009, 03:23
necromancers are rubbish, do not use them. If you do use them, only use 1. Vampires are far superior now.

The vampire lord does not have access to a barded nightmare, only a nightmare. To get a barded one you must either buy manfred or take dread knight.

The book of arkhan and the black periapt are both arcane items, as such you can only have ONE of them on a single character.

Ultimate Life Form
16-06-2009, 06:00
In my opinion, the Book of Arkhan is best placed in the hands of a Necromancer (if one is present, I'm not implying here you should buy one to give him the book). Your Necro does have a lot of empty space and the Vampire could make good use of these points instead. You're crippling your Vampire this way. I can see your plan is using it on the Blood Knight unit (to get a first turn charge?), but maybe you can place the Necromancer and his unit in the middle of the board so the Blood Knights are usually within the 12" bubble. That way, the Lord can take something to protect him which is what you requested. Trade tactical flexibility for protection if you want.

bork da basher
16-06-2009, 06:42
thanks for the advice, i had a feeling the necros would be the weak link. okedoke had a reshuffle and i quite like this now.

lord - kitted out for magic, hold the centre and bulk out the skeleton units. has 2+ save and -3 save mod in CC. sit in the graveguard and acts as an anchor for my infantry.

vampire - lvl 2 and can summon ghouls, should keep make a formidable unit.

vampire - dread knight so he can lead the blood knights and book of arkhan which if im lucky will give the enemy something to worry about on turn 1. the vamp can also help the unit keep up its numbers, great saves still fail now n then.

the rest is similar, opted to oust the necros in favour of the carts with balefire, i know its done to death but i face lots n lots of magic armies so the -2 to cast in 24" will be priceless.

graveguard now have the hatred banner, with the lord in there and the wights killing blow and possible vanhels cast on them this unit is fearsome in combat and will be hard to take down. a suitable anvil in the centre of my army.

bloodknights, i dropped a knight to include the vampire and also gave them the banner of the dead legion, unit strength 20 and inevitable win in any combats will almost always be winning me the autobreak. screened by doggies and supported by the vargulf i hope to make this team a line breaker.

ok, so thoughts?? can it be tweaked a bit here n there, am i cutting it too low on magic or do i have a fair amount?

LORDS
lord / knightmare, dark acolyte, master of the black arts, lord of the dead, helm of commandment, flayed hauberk, biting blade / 380

HEROES
Vampire / dark acolyte, summon ghouls / 145
Vampire / dread knight, book of arkhan / 160

CORE
14 ghouls / ghast / 120 (vampire)
14 skeletons / standard / 120
14 skeletons / standard / 120
5 dire wolves / 40
Corpsecart / balefire / 100
Corpsecart / balefire / 100

SPECIAL
18 graveguard / champion & standard, royal standard of strigos / 275 (lord)

RARE
4 blood knights / standard, banner of the dead legion / 265 (vampire)

Vargulf / 175

2000pts

11PD
6DD
3 Bound

riotknight
16-06-2009, 07:21
I see this so often.

Don't bother with Dark Acolyte, take Forbidden Lore, you guarantee every Spell that way and also, on the Off chance you need something else, you have the option to take another Lore (not usually but its sometimes fun).

1 Power die isn't going to break you with this list and its better to guarantee another Dance on a character with access to 5 dice of his own.

Edit; Also, its usually a better idea to focus on one core that way all the raising can be done by every vampire. I prefer skeletons myself. (I also usually use Manfred)

bork da basher
16-06-2009, 07:53
i thought about it the extra PD is proberly more useful to me as this is a raising army more than anything. id never bother to cast wind of undeath or raise undead legion anyway so 2/4 spells are worthless to me anyway. another lore is a complete no no because i can't raise outside of invokation.

added a necro to a corpsecart, useful for another vanhels attempt in the centre. dropped a couple of skellies to make room.

one core choice seems wise but its a bit dull visually and in game. the unit of ghouls will add a bit of punch to the infantry line once they are boosted up. T4 and poisoned attacks is really very good and means i can be a bit more offensive and not just take the hits and hope to win by numbers all the time.

Spirit
16-06-2009, 11:48
In my opinion, the Book of Arkhan is best placed in the hands of a Necromancer (if one is present, I'm not implying here you should buy one to give him the book). Your Necro does have a lot of empty space and the Vampire could make good use of these points instead. You're crippling your Vampire this way. I can see your plan is using it on the Blood Knight unit (to get a first turn charge?), but maybe you can place the Necromancer and his unit in the middle of the board so the Blood Knights are usually within the 12" bubble. That way, the Lord can take something to protect him which is what you requested. Trade tactical flexibility for protection if you want.

Just to point out, you cannot get a first turn charge with a movement of 14"+8"

You need to be able to move 25" in one turn to get a first turn charge.

And before anyone else says it, you can only cast vanhells to make a unit move ONCE per magic phase.

bork da basher
16-06-2009, 12:12
yes i realise but you dont always get to move first and usually the enemy advances towards you so it wouldnt be too unreasonable to get a charge on MY first turn in this case. even metagame it would be great to redeploy the knights halfway accross the table in a big hurry. generally speaking i prefer going second as it allows me to see my opponants hand a little bit. i think undead work especially well as a reactionary army, waiting to see what the enemy do then throw a big spanner in their works.

bork da basher
16-06-2009, 13:00
ok im happy with this, if i change it it'll be after i at least playtest it.

vamp lord now has flaming lance, he's mounted and for 10pts why not. ghoul vamp has the hand of dust which is a bit of risk but one helluva shock for any unit in combat with it. i may or may not keep it but i'll see how it performs and its another bound spell and one that will inevitably bring out the dispel dice/scrolls. dreadknight vamp will use the book to throw the unit about hopefully getting off some early charges or redeploying the knights where they are needed most. trimmed down some of the core units as raising them is too easy to bother spending the points on them.



Vampire lord / knightmare, dark acolyte, master of the black arts, lord of the dead, helm of commandment, flayed hauberk, balefire spike / 385

HEROES
Vampire / dark acolyte, summon ghouls, hand of dust / 195
Vampire / dread knight, book of arkhan / 160

CORE
11 ghouls / ghast / 96 (vampire)
12 skeletons / standard / 104
12 skeletons / standard / 104
5 dire wolves / 40
Corpsecart / balefire / 100
Corpsecart / balefire / 100

SPECIAL
18 graveguard / champion & standard, royal standard of strigos / 275 (lord)

RARE
4 blood knights / standard, banner of the dead legion / 265 (vampire)

Vargulf / 175

Ultimate Life Form
16-06-2009, 18:52
Just to point out, you cannot get a first turn charge with a movement of 14"+8"

You need to be able to move 25" in one turn to get a first turn charge.

And before anyone else says it, you can only cast vanhells to make a unit move ONCE per magic phase.

Oh noes! I totally screwed up on this one! Sorry, my bad. This time, the Ultimate Life Form's advice was not as good as usual, but this only serves to back up my point that Vampires shouldn't take the book if a Necro can do the job instead.

Good thing you pointed out my mistake though, I had already made a mental note to try it myself one of these days.:p

At the OP: Your list seems pretty sound now, I think it is now time to go into playtesting phase as I cannot help you further without seeing the army in action.

Griffery
16-06-2009, 20:13
If you are playing 2k i would suggest taking a vamp lord with dread knight and dreadlance and some other good CC things. If you truly wanted to you also could include a master of the black arts or something like that to dominate the magic phase, even more then you would already.

Spirit
17-06-2009, 05:20
I would switch the helm of command and the hand of dust, if your lord gets into combat you cant use the helm anyway. most of the time, WS6 is just as good as WS5.

Then, give that vampire with the helm the talisman of lycni, this gives your helm of command a movement of 9.

Being able to deploy WS6 anywhere within 30" is insanely useful.

Spirit
17-06-2009, 05:22
even metagame it would be great to redeploy the knights halfway accross the table in a big hurry. generally speaking i prefer going second as it allows me to see my opponants hand a little bit. i think undead work especially well as a reactionary army, waiting to see what the enemy do then throw a big spanner in their works.

Dont get me wrong, i think vanhels is the best spell in the vampire lore, by a long way.

bork da basher
17-06-2009, 07:22
good advice about the helm, i'll play around with the items again.

bork da basher
17-06-2009, 07:44
LORDS
Vampire lord / knightmare, dark acolyte, master of the black arts, lord of the dead, flayed hauberk, balefire spike. Skullstaff / 420

HEROES
Vampire / dark acolyte, summon ghouls, helm of commandment, talisman of lyncni / 185
Vampire / dread knight, book of arkhan / 160

ok hows this? vamp lord on knightmare. lvl 3, +2PD, lord of the dead, flaming lance, 2+ AS, skullstaff (instead of hand of dust)

still good in combat with 4 S7 flaming hits on the charge (rerolls for hatred banner), very useful in a situation where a chariot comes close by, zip out and smash it if theres nothing around to blow his head off that is. very good in magic phase. 5 dice to himself and +1 to cast/dispel.

other vamp is as suggested. helm of commandment & talisman of lycni so he can zip out if needed and share his WS in a wider bubble. dread knight vamp stays the same as vanhels is better used on this unit to help put you where you want to be and to avoid the crap you can find yourself in with frenzied troops.
i think my magical protection is pretty solid too, 6DD, -2 to cast within 24 of the carts and +1 to dispel with the staff. i'd like maybe one scroll, i always do but i'll leave them at home this time.

Spirit
17-06-2009, 15:40
I liek the skull staff, i use it very often.

One thing to remember, your +1 to cast and +1 to cast on skeletons (so +2 total) . However, a roll of a 1 or 2 is ALWAYS a fail, so to cast invocation of nehek on skeletons you must still roll a 3 or more.

So to cast invocation on skeletons you still need to roll a 3+, and the spell will be cast on 5 (3 +1staff +1 vamp power).

bork da basher
17-06-2009, 16:06
well no sooner had i changed the list that i was offered some of the VERY old skeleton horsemen which im going to convert to black knights so dropping the skull staff which may be unneccesary anyway and the magic banners to make room for them.

JDiggy
17-06-2009, 18:18
Talisman of the lycni and helm of commandment are both enchanted items I thought a character can only have one? I've always wanted to use that combo and it would be cool if I was wrong :)

bork da basher
17-06-2009, 20:49
didnt notice back to the drawing board there then lol.

bork da basher
18-06-2009, 10:28
OK!! this is it i can't see anything wrong and im tired of rewriting it. i'll assemble and play with it a bunch before it'll change again.

the plan is basically advance increasing my core units to 20+, throw out a load of zombie screens to interfere with the enemy advance. depending on what im facing i can either use all my fast stuff together or split it into two groups, vargulf and black knights and bloodknights and wolves. although im tempted to keep the black knights back a little and use them as flankers or to zip through terrain and position myself better. one thing im torn between is do i keep the banner of the dead legion on the blood knights or do i go for the standard of hellish vigour?

LORDS
Vampire lord / knightmare, dark acolyte, master of the black arts, lord of the dead, flayed hauberk, balefire spike / 355

HEROES
Vampire / dark acolyte, summon ghouls, helm of commandment / 175
Vampire / dread knight, book of arkhan / 160

CORE
10 ghouls / 88 (vampire)
10 skeletons / standard +8 / 88
10 skeletons / standard +8 / 88
5 dire wolves / 40
Corpsecart / balefire / 100
Corpsecart / balefire / 100

SPECIAL
18 graveguard / champion & standard / 240 (lord)
5 black knights / standard / 136

RARE
4 blood knights / standard, banner of the dead legion / 265 (vampire)

Vargulf / 175

2002pts

10PD
6DD
3 Bound

Gokamok
18-06-2009, 12:53
This is by far good enough for playtesting, you'll likely find things that you want to switch, tweak or otherwise change, but you'll figure out what suits you best.
As for changing the banner on the Blood Knights, they count as a Vampire unit themselves, meaning that there's not much point inn taking the Standard of Hellish Vigour;)

bork da basher
18-06-2009, 13:36
no i meant for the black knights...otherwise id have to keep them close to the vargulf or bloodknights to march which would be a pain.

Kill-Freedom
18-06-2009, 14:08
Dont waste points on mounting your lord, have him in a unit of skeletons or grave gaurd

bork da basher
18-06-2009, 15:00
he's mounted and in the unit of graveguard, he doesnt have to be in a cavalry unit although if i chose i could always put him there or. he's mounted for the extra movement, it's amazing how often a speedy getaway is required of a lord to keep him alive. also with the hellfire lance he adds a bit of punch to the unit and is able to take care of high toughness troops or even jump out of the unit and smash a chariot if its safe to do so. if i took away the knightmare id have to remove the lance so thats 30pts with very little to do with it other than add a couple of skellies or ghouls which i can raise for nothing and leave my lord without a weapon.

Spirit
18-06-2009, 22:50
Have you bought your vampire lod level 3 for 50 points? (not dark acolyte)

Because its a must

bork da basher
18-06-2009, 23:07
just dark acolyte, buying the extra level at 50pts would put me to level 4...which is not really needed TBH.

Kill-Freedom
18-06-2009, 23:24
he's mounted and in the unit of graveguard, he doesnt have to be in a cavalry unit although if i chose i could always put him there or. he's mounted for the extra movement, it's amazing how often a speedy getaway is required of a lord to keep him alive. also with the hellfire lance he adds a bit of punch to the unit and is able to take care of high toughness troops or even jump out of the unit and smash a chariot if its safe to do so. if i took away the knightmare id have to remove the lance so thats 30pts with very little to do with it other than add a couple of skellies or ghouls which i can raise for nothing and leave my lord without a weapon.

Its amazing what a lucky cannon shot can do as well, i dont think mounted models in a unit strenght 1 unit gets, the look out sir rule

So your horse dude will be a sitting duck

Spirit
19-06-2009, 00:32
Its amazing what a lucky cannon shot can do as well, i dont think mounted models in a unit strenght 1 unit gets, the look out sir rule

So your horse dude will be a sitting duck


That rule hasnt been in existance for years. You need ot be US5 not to get look out sir.

Which means, interestingly enough that a necromancer on a corpse cart in a unit gets look out sir.


As for the extra level on your vampire lord, it is needed. As a long time vamp player i would never leave home without it but it's your call.

Kill-Freedom
19-06-2009, 00:47
lvl 3 is a must, agree with spirit on that

Spirit
19-06-2009, 01:29
lvl 3 is a must, agree with spirit on that

Now that, is a rarity :p

Kill-Freedom
19-06-2009, 01:38
I usaully play a combat lord, and still take lvl 3 on him, an extra power dice and dispel dice is always needed ^^