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flytail
09-05-2005, 20:23
So I am having a Lustria campaign, and I wished to limit the kind of cheese comming in. I was reading on how others dealt with crap composition armies, and it seems some people came up with a scoring system at a convention in Australia. All due credit to this is given to them. I was hoping that some people would give thoughts on these "penalties" and % requirements( If you're up for complaining about how the whole idea of composistion is silly,and that you have nothing to contribute then don't bother posting please..)

We will be having fights were the list composistion will range from 1000,1500 to 2000 pt armies. I plan on penalizing people at the amount mentioned below(I think that within the list they assumed 2000 pts armies ):

******************
COMPOSITION

Is made up of a set checklist penalty system.

Definition of 'Core': For the purposes of this system, any unit purchased as a Core choice counts as Core, with the following exceptions:

a) Core units with an upgrade that changes their attributes (Inner Circle, Chosen, Big’Uns), unless the army includes at least one unit of the same (not upgraded) troop type of equal size or larger.

b) Chariots bought as Core units (this does not include Khemri chariot units, as these units are considered Fast Cav, not ‘proper’ chariots!).

c) Attached units (Skaven Weapon Teams, Flamers of Tzeentch, Night Goblin Fanatics, etc.). Basically anything that is purchased as a unit upgrade but operates independently would be considered an attached unit. This does not include anything in a squig herd, as basically the whole unit operates this way! Empire Detachments are not unit upgrades, and are therefore also unaffected by this.

Any of the above that was purchased as Core would be considered Special units instead for the composition checklist below (note that this doesn't make a perfectly legal list invalid by moving units around, it's just used for the composition scoring!).

SCORING

Each item on the checklist below that your army does not meet is worth 100(changed here) Victory Points, for a possible total of 1000 Victory points. If you knowlingly violated these numbers and failed to discuss with the TO why, the penalty will increase two-fold. The total is taken away from the total Victory Points you gain in a game, after scenario conditions have been applied and before Battle points are worked out.

COMPOSITION CHECKLIST

1. At least 40% of the points in the army (900 pts) is spent in Core (see definition of Core above).

2. At least 50% of the points in the army (1125) is spent in Core (see definition of Core above).

3. No more than 30% of the points in the army (675) are spent in Specials (see definition of Core above for which units are moved to Specials from Core for this purpose).

4. No more than 10% of the points of the army (225) are spent in Rare selections.

5. No more than 10% of the points of the army (225) are spent in magic items (including Daemonic Gifts, magic standards, Dwarf Engineering runes, Dwarf Slayer Skills, Lizardman Spawnings for characters, or anything that counts against a character’s magic item points allowance, i.e. Bretonnian Virtues, Vampire Bloodline Abilities, etc.). For Greater Daemons, count the Daemonic Gifts they get ‘by default’ in this calculation!

6. In this army there are not more than 2 Special selections of the same unit type, or 1 Rare selection of the same unit type. For example, 2 cannons in an Empire army is acceptable, 3 is not. Similarly, 2 Spawn in a Chaos army is acceptable, 3 is not (that’s two Spawn Rare selections, even though the second one is only one Spawn).

7. The army includes at least two Core units (see definition of Core
above) that are at least one and a half times minimum unit size and
no more than 1 core units of unit strength less than 10. For Daemon Legions, the two units at 1.5Xminimum size MUST be ‘True Core’!
(example: Skaven Clanrats are a minimum unit size of 20; to count for the 1.5X, Skaven Clanrat units would have to be at least 30 models strong, and the army would have to have no more than one Core unit smaller than US10 (<10 nightrunners, <4 swarms, etc.)).

8. The army includes no more than 30% of its points (675) in characters.

9. The army contains no more than 4 units (including rank and file AND characters) that can strike at Strength 5 or greater on the turn they charge)

10. The army includes no single magic item (for this purpose Dwarfs count each Rune as an individual item!) with a point cost of greater than 50 pts. See item 5 for a list of what types of items are included as ‘magic items’ for this purpose.

11. The army generates no more than 8 magic power dice and/or 6 magic dispel dice. All bound items/spells of power level 1-3 count as 1 dice, all bound items/spells of 4-6 power level count as 2 dice and all bound items/spells of 7+ count as 3 dice. For Tomb Kings armies, Tomb Prince = 1 dice, Liche Priest = 2 dice, Tomb King = 2 dice and Liche High priest = 4 dice. For Lizardmen armies, 2nd Generation Slann = 6 dice. Example: a Level 2 Necromancer with Book of Arkhan would count as 3 dice (Level 2 spellcaster (2) + a set-value 3 Bound Spell (1) = 3 total).

12. The army contains no more than one Terror causer.

13. The army contains no Terror causers.

14. The army contains more units of infantry than units of non-infantry (non-infantry includes cavalry, swarms, monsters, chariots, flying units, or war machines). Do not count characters as units for this purpose (though if they are mounted on a chariot or monster, count the mount!).

15. The army contains no more than 4 units armed with missile weapons (‘units armed with missile weapons’ includes war machines and weapons teams!). Do not count characters as units for this purpose.



*************
For me rule 12 and rule 13 seem to contradict eachother. Then rule 1 and rule 2 seem to contradict eachother as well. I'll likely modify these, so suggestions are appreciated as I don't play every army there is.

Da GoBBo
09-05-2005, 21:52
A lot of your rules I'm using as guidelines myself so I agree with a lot of it. Some things wern't quite clear and I'd like to know more about the following:


c) Attached units (Skaven Weapon Teams, Flamers of Tzeentch, Night Goblin Fanatics, etc.). Basically anything that is purchased as a unit upgrade but operates independently would be considered an attached unit. This does not include anything in a squig herd, as basically the whole unit operates this way! Empire Detachments are not unit upgrades, and are therefore also unaffected by this.


Does this make a night gobbo unit a special unit when it contains fanatics? I think that's kind of harsh beacause of a couple of things. You probably won't see any night gobbos in your campaign, that would be a shame. And (more important), fanatics just aren't that good. It's threat of fanatics that scares everybody of and makes em do weird stuff. But in the end fanatics are doin more damage to the greenskins then to the enemy. Really, it's a psycological warfare, not some beardy kind of bashin.



All Dark Elf armies start out at +200VP before applying the composition questions, excluding armies that have more non-infantry units than infantry units per Q14.

All High Elf armies start out at +1000VP before applying the composition questions, excluding armies that have more non infantry units than infantry units per Q14.

All Dwarf armies start at +100VP before applying the composition questions.


The high elves should get +100VP right? not +1000 VP. And I'd really like to know why you are putting thes armies at a disadvantage.



14. The army contains more units of infantry than units of non-infantry (non-infantry includes cavalry, swarms, monsters, chariots, flying units, or war machines). Do not count characters as units for this purpose (though if they are mounted on a chariot or monster, count the mount!).


I really think you should reconsider this. Take goblin warmachines for instance. You either take none or you take 4-6 or more (or something like that). the are cheap and not really effective when compared to other armies warmachines. What I try to say is that a lot of support is cheap and it can be nice to build your army around support units. This can add a lot of strategic value and is definitly not beardy, that's what you'r trying to achieve right? Maybe you should make it a point percentage.

arxhon
10-05-2005, 02:42
Hi, flytail? Please use the [ quote ] tags when quoting. It makes it really hard to figure out what you're quoting, and what your reply is. :)

flytail
10-05-2005, 03:23
Ok let me try this [quote] tags. Sorry if I botch up.

flytail
10-05-2005, 03:28
Does this make a night gobbo unit a special unit when it contains fanatics? I think that's kind of harsh beacause of a couple of things. You probably won't see any night gobbos in your campaign, that would be a shame. And (more important), fanatics just aren't that good. It's threat of fanatics that scares everybody of and makes em do weird stuff. But in the end fanatics are doin more damage to the greenskins then to the enemy. Really, it's a psycological warfare, not some beardy kind of bashin.


Yes it does make a night gobbo unit a special unit when it contains fanatics. It is a bit harsh, however if you're looking to psychologically screw with your opponents head, then you'd likely take only a few of the total gobbos units with fanatics in them to make them guess. I field them myself. Mainly I think it's preventing the person from doing all fanatics. Agian I'm not so experienced, and might let the gobbo case go by, however I'd make sure it wasn't all fanatics. For dwarf armies this might pose a big problem.



The high elves should get +100VP right? not +1000 VP. And I'd really like to know why you are putting thes armies at a disadvantage.


I messed up, and didn't realize why they were penalized myself. Remember I just copied them. I'll remove that. Thanks for noticing :).




I really think you should reconsider this. Take goblin warmachines for instance. You either take none or you take 4-6 or more (or something like that). the are cheap and not really effective when compared to other armies warmachines. What I try to say is that a lot of support is cheap and it can be nice to build your army around support units. This can add a lot of strategic value and is definitly not beardy, that's what you'r trying to achieve right? Maybe you should make it a point percentage.

Yes, you have a point. I shall try to go with a point percentage, but I'm not sure what to use. I will have to sit on it.

flytail
10-05-2005, 03:32
One rule that bothers me is this, and it seems contradictive:
12. The army contains no more than one Terror causer.

13. The army contains no Terror causers.

I don't yet understand the role of terror in warhammer, as I haven't done many vampire conflicts. Though I know of some creatures that do this. I mean shouldn't you be allowed one terror causer? It would just seem normal.

Avatar of Jack
10-05-2005, 04:19
Just because I like throwing spanners, can I submit a different system for your perusal? I like this system, but I can take no credit for it whatsoever. I was introduced to the concept by the "Warmaster" at my local store/club (also in Australia. Tasmania, to be more precise):

Army Composition
Your army must conform with the usual guidelines for 2,000 point armies.

Score your army against the following set of questions. Your starting score is 20 points. NOTE – if for some reason you end up with a score less than 0, your army is illegal. You must change it so you get at least a score of at least 0.

1. Deduct 5 points if you have spent less than 500 points on core troops.

2. Deduct 2 points if you have spent more than 500 points on characters.

3. Deduct 2 points if you have spent more on special troops than on core troops.

4. Deduct 2 points if you have spent more on rare troops than on core troops.

5. Deduct 2 points for each individual model worth more than 250 points (characters and their steeds are counted separately)

6. Deduct 1 points for each model that causes terror.

7. Deduct 2 points for each war machine that you have in excess of 3 (includes cannons, bolt throwers, stone throwers, steam tanks, chariots, hellcannons, screaming skull catapults, salamanders etc etc, but not tomb scorpions, bone giants or stegadons).

8. If your army generates more than 8 magic power dice and/or 6 magic dispel dice, deduct 1 from your score for each 2 dice (or part thereof) generated in excess of these amounts. (do not include the 2 mandatory power dice or dice from one-use items such as the power stone, but do include any bonuses from magic items, marks etc. Additionally, all bound items/spells of power level 1- 5 count as 1 dice, all bound items/spells of 6-9 power level count as 2 dice and all bound items/spells of 10+ count as 3 dice. For Tomb Kings armies, Tomb Prince = 1 dice, Liche Priest = 2 dice, Tomb King = 2 dice and Liche High Priest = 4 dice. For Lizardmen armies, 2nd Generation Slann = 6 dice. Example: a Level 2 Necromancer with Book of Arkhan would count as 3 dice (Level 2 spellcaster (2) + a set-value 3 Bound Spell (1) = 3 total).

9. Deduct 2 points if you have spent more than 250 points on magic items (including Daemonic Gifts, Marks of Chaos, magic standards, Dwarf Engineering runes, Dwarf Slayer Skills, Lizardman Spawnings for characters, or anything that counts against a character’s magic item points allowance, i.e. Bretonnian Virtues, Vampire Bloodline Abilities, etc. For Greater Daemons, count the Daemonic Gifts they get ‘by default’ in this calculation.)

10. Deduct 2 points if you have more than twice as many units capable of ranged attacks of some form or another than units that are not capable of ranged attacks. (Count each war machine as a single unit for the purposes of working this out. Empire detachments, Skaven ratling gun teams etc also count as individual units for this purpose. Breath weapons count as a ranged attack, but magical missiles do not. Characters and their steeds are not counted.)

...food for thought, at least.

arxhon
10-05-2005, 04:33
Much better, flytail, thank you. :cool:

Ok.

The thing that's bothering me the most is this bias towards penalizing armies with missile troops. I'm not sure why it's so bad to have units that, instead of bashing the crap out of stuff in hand to hand (such as frenzied Khorne chaos warriors) ,shoot them from halfway across the table (like, oh, say HE archers). I can see if it's meant to curb ratling guns, and artillery lines, but it seems to me that it's unduly restrictive. IIRC, it's pretty much a given that missile troops for the most part are fairly ineffective.

What gives?

Not having played in tournaments, are rank and file missile troops really that bad? :confused:

flytail
10-05-2005, 04:51
Much better, flytail, thank you. :cool:

Ok.

The thing that's bothering me the most is this bias towards penalizing armies with missile troops. I'm not sure why it's so bad to have units that, instead of bashing the crap out of stuff in hand to hand (such as frenzied Khorne chaos warriors) ,shoot them from halfway across the table.



Well what would you propose, so that while you rule out Empire gun lines, you are not ruling out the tatically sound ranged elements? I am just curious. Perhaps the number should be changed to a %. Indeed this is hard to manage!

What I could do is put a special clause in there that says the following:

15. The army contains no more than 4 units armed with missile weapons (‘units armed with missile weapons’ includes war machines and weapons teams!). Do not count characters as units for this purpose. You may see me for a higher allowance of units armed with missile weapons.

as opposed to:



15. The army contains no more than 4 units armed with missile weapons (‘units armed with missile weapons’ includes war machines and weapons teams!). Do not count characters as units for this purpose.

flytail
10-05-2005, 04:53
Just because I like throwing spanners, can I submit a different system for your perusal? I like this system, but I can take no credit for it whatsoever. I was introduced to the concept by the "Warmaster" at my local store/club (also in Australia. Tasmania, to be more precise):


Avatar of Jack, it seems ok, however do you realize it allows for people to violate the guidelines and get away with it? Or is the numbers built so well that if they violate one clause, they will surely end up violating some others. Just curious. How has it worked out at your store?

Da GoBBo
10-05-2005, 20:59
Yes it does make a night gobbo unit a special unit when it contains fanatics. It is a bit harsh, however if you're looking to psychologically screw with your opponents head, then you'd likely take only a few of the total gobbos units with fanatics in them to make them guess. I field them myself. Mainly I think it's preventing the person from doing all fanatics. Agian I'm not so experienced, and might let the gobbo case go by, however I'd make sure it wasn't all fanatics. For dwarf armies this might pose a big problem.


Yes I do think you have a point there. Maybe you should allow the first two units whith fanatics count as core units, and all others with fanatics as special. Or make it a special unit when it contains more then 2 fanatics, or a combination of the two of that, stuff like that.


The thing that's bothering me the most is this bias towards penalizing armies with missile troops.

I can agree on that (at least partially). Again its not smart to aply this rule to all armies. A wood elf army is supposed to shoot you to bits and your opponent has to outsmart you in order to get to you not too badly damaged before the end of round 6.

As an allround remark. I think its good to make campaign rules like this. But maybe you should make seperate rules for every army instead of one set of rules for every armies. This costs ye some time, but saves a lot of whining during the campaign because people where thinking "those special rules surely weren't meant to prohibit me from doin this right?"

flytail
11-05-2005, 03:49
=
As an allround remark. I think its good to make campaign rules like this. But maybe you should make seperate rules for every army instead of one set of rules for every armies. This costs ye some time, but saves a lot of whining during the campaign because people where thinking "those special rules surely weren't meant to prohibit me from doin this right?"

This is a really delicate subject, and I agee. I'll likely have to apply a global ruling and then find out about different armies. Bretonians, wood elfs, etc.

:0)
11-05-2005, 04:31
I don't agree with the 10% in rare rule. Treemen would be illegal, giants would be pushing it, and it would be almost impossible to field a unit of Grail Knights.

Avatar of Jack
11-05-2005, 04:39
Avatar of Jack, it seems ok, however do you realize it allows for people to violate the guidelines and get away with it? Or is the numbers built so well that if they violate one clause, they will surely end up violating some others. Just curious. How has it worked out at your store?

I am part of the League of Gentlemen, we try to avoid violating guidelines in the name of good sportsmanship. So it work well here. However, could you detail to me exactly how it is possible to violate said guidelines so I may elaborate further? I haven't had any trouble with it.

Slyracoon
11-05-2005, 11:04
As an allround remark. I think its good to make campaign rules like this. But maybe you should make seperate rules for every army instead of one set of rules for every armies. This costs ye some time, but saves a lot of whining during the campaign because people where thinking "those special rules surely weren't meant to prohibit me from doin this right?"
I agree with you here, specific sets of rules for each army would be much easier in the long run. How many different armies will be playing in the campaign? I'm sure we could rustle up some guidelines fairly quickly.

However, if you want to stick with this way of doing things then I'm with Arxhon, the missle unit rule is very problematic. If you're wanting to discourage Empire gun lines and ratling guns then you could always just classify weapons teams as warmachines and put a quite strict limit on those. Something like one warmachine per 1000pts, or maybe that's a bit harsh?

The limit on rare is a bit tough, I'd say you should increase it 15% because you don't want to rule out any unit entirely and as it stands that rule does so.

McGonigle
17-05-2005, 19:00
A few questions:

1) Why penalise anyone for having more than 6 Dispel Dice, the 8 Power dice makes sense to avoid magic armies of Doom, yet why Dispel dice? At the worst you have a game with barely any magic which is hardly unfair. Also if penalising on Dispel Dice what about scroll caddies.

2) On the Core classification it would seem fair to exclude units that were moved to core from special from the core allowance

3) The last guidelines 14 + 15 really discriminate against certain armies:

Brettonians being penalised for being mainly calvary is completely against the spirit of the army (Also rule 9 hurts them)

By choosing Orge kingdoms you basically break this rule

Woodelves are quit resonable to use such

3b) Also armies can break these rules while being very resonable

Also what is so wrong about 5 units of skinks?

Or a Fast calvarly based force

3c) Rule 14 penalises a player who does have big blocks of core infantry, since he would have less numbers of units, yet that is encouraged in Rule 7

gortexgunnerson
06-09-2005, 21:29
I think that if you use this sort of rules they strongly favour combat troops, so amries like khorne infantry will just be albe to walk across the battle field and then be unmatchable in combat as you cannot use enough magic and missile to whittle them down. Vampire counts with lots of infantry and core and no shooting will have vast hordes of troops when they reach your line and will just mob everything. I think a much better way of doing this is just to know your oppenent before hand, I play to win and I use semi power gaming armies but I openly admit this and so play oppenets that want a hard fought game. I generally offer my list up to them a week or so before and ask them to play something they think can take my list. I'm not saying that winning is everything or anything like that but I feel its wrong to be penelised for playing competetive lists. I generally use Dwarfs 30% characters, 30% combat and 40% shooting (overall 40%+ core troops 20% specail 10% rare 30% characters) and I rarely change the composition. I think a lot of people balance is a bit of everything in their armies and hence the army has no way of actually winning the game, true balanced armies are armies written to take on all comers through a number of different tactics. A unbalanced army is one with only 1 method of winning the game and so if the dice go well they massacre the oppenent and if they go badly they lose. And I thing these are the armies that rules shopuld penelise as you might as well role off at the start to see who wins but armies that are strong in a field but have other elements to back it up are IMO more balanced then armies that have abit of everything as these just have no character or style, they are just a bit of everything

Trunks
06-09-2005, 23:40
c) Attached units (Skaven Weapon Teams, Flamers of Tzeentch, Night Goblin Fanatics, etc.). Basically anything that is purchased as a unit upgrade but operates independently would be considered an attached unit. This does not include anything in a squig herd, as basically the whole unit operates this way! Empire Detachments are not unit upgrades, and are therefore also unaffected by this.

Any of the above that was purchased as Core would be considered Special units instead for the composition checklist below (note that this doesn't make a perfectly legal list invalid by moving units around, it's just used for the composition scoring!).


This is the important paragraph that you all are ignoring with regards to Night Goblin regiments with Fantatics becomming special. They stay Core with respect to choosing your army according to the guidlines in your army book (3+ core for 2000 points, etc.,).

These regiments count as special ONLY for purposes of going through the checklist for extra points. So you "pretend" they are special choices while running through the checklist, but they don't really become special choices.

A night goblin player can still have every regiment contain fanatics and a skaven player can still have every regiment have gun teams.

I personally hate composition score things in general because it penalizes people who theme their armies. My army may have a majority of it's points comming from the special choices section, but that doesnt' make it more powerful. I understand the point is to stop power gaming, but it screws over themed lists that rely on specials and rares (that aren't any more powerful than an army that relies on cores).