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doghouse
31-08-2009, 14:08
Here's something that I quickly knocked together for using power armoured tactical squads in Space Hulk.
It's been a while since I played but as soon as I get the new set I'll do a proper version and some missions once the Mission 13 PDF comes out.

The way that it works is that a ten man tactical squad replaces a terminator squad on
a one for one basis. So in missions where you have one terminator squad you
use one tactical squad instead. In missions where there are two terminator squads you use two tactical squads instead.

In a tactical squad you get one sergeant with either bolter and chainsword or bolt pistol and powerfist. One marine carries a special weapon which can be a plasma gun, flamer or melta gun. One marine carries a heavy bolter.

Now to new players of space hulk they are going to seem a little under powered and weapons will translate slightly differently to their 40k counterparts but that's intentional. Terminators are used for a reason and their power armoured brothers never survived as well in the old rules.

Like I say they are experimental at the moment so let me know what you think.

Edit: Just noticed that I missed out the part where weapons on overwatch are limited to a range of twelve and Meltas are limited to eight.

AndrewGPaul
31-08-2009, 14:21
Just noticed, a 90degree turn costs 1 AP, but a 180 turn is free? Is that a typo?

doghouse
31-08-2009, 14:31
Space marines can't make one eighty turns so I should have really removed that bit altogether. The little line indicates they can't perform that action so it doesn't apply.
Well spotted mate. :)

Wickey the Viking
31-08-2009, 14:56
Nice one! I was thinking about doing this last weekend and this wil help me quite a lot.

Maybe you could do a combo of both in a Stealer-heavy scenario. Use 2 squads of tactical marines and 1 squad of terminators.

And how about going for a squad of Grey Knight terminators?

doghouse
31-08-2009, 15:21
Definately mate. :)

I'm currently putting together rules for Daemons as a replacement for stealers which would be great for using grey knights. The Librarian rules are the perfect starting point for Grey Knights although they would be seriously tough.

I'm also working on penal legion last chancer platoons for the guard, Tau pathfinders, Orks and Eldar rangers.

I think that the key is to try and keep as close to the main rules as possible so as not to take away what space hulk is all about.
The timer is the key to the marine player so increasing the the number of models makes it more difficult for him.
In this example power armoured marines are going to bring a lot more bodies to the game as you have twice as many models to complete your objective.
The downside is that you still have the same time limit and command points so need to move quickly to get the job done and they will drop like flies if the genestealers get close. You also have to spread your forces more thinly to make use of the firepower that they bring.

Mojaco
31-08-2009, 15:54
Why not give them 5 APs, to give them a single advantage over Termies (aside from being able to move sideways)

doghouse
31-08-2009, 16:24
I did think about that but the problem is unbalancing it for the genestealer player and you start getting into the realms of them out performing the terminators themselves.
By restricting it to four you're limiting the player to the amount of ap points he can use a turn so he still has to rely on command points and twenty men is a lot to manage.
It may not seem like much but that additional point per man could result in an extra eighteen bolter rounds a turn or allow flamer marines to move a square further before firing. It also means that the stealer still has the advantage of speed.

Znail
31-08-2009, 16:55
Some suggested changes:
Plasmagun kill on 4+
Meltagun rolls 1D6
Boltpistol lose sustained fire

The first two are pretty important and those weapons came off as being far too strong, much better then any of the heavy weapons!

Grayknights should be pretty easy to adapt, a suggestion:
Stormbolter and Force Axe for all.
10 Psi-points shared between the entire squad and they get the offensive power, name slipped my mind right now.

The main problem lies in how good they are compared to a normal Terminator squad, maybe some tweaks are needed to make them even to one. Maybe drop the +1 from the Force Axe and call that a bonus for the real Hero Librarian. That might do it. What does others think?

doghouse
31-08-2009, 17:44
Sounds good to me. :)

I was thinking the same thing about the weapon issues after looking at it again. Special weapons shouldn't really be in a position to out perform heavy and terminator weapons.
I like the bolt pistol suggestion as well.

I think that grey knights issue should be tailored to solely fighting demons and so ideally rules for demons should be introduced if you are going to include them as they are probably going to be a little overpowered for fighting stealers. The main problem I can see with grey knights is that they are going to tip the balance if used alongside regular terminators.

Wickey the Viking
31-08-2009, 17:47
Some suggested changes:
Plasmagun kill on 4+
Meltagun rolls 1D6
Boltpistol lose sustained fire

The first two are pretty important and those weapons came off as being far too strong, much better then any of the heavy weapons!

Grey Knights should be pretty easy to adapt, a suggestion:
Stormbolter and Force Axe for all.
10 Psi-points shared between the entire squad and they get the offensive power, name slipped my mind right now.

The main problem lies in how good they are compared to a normal Terminator squad, maybe some tweaks are needed to make them even to one. Maybe drop the +1 from the Force Axe and call that a bonus for the real Hero Librarian. That might do it. What does others think?
I think they are all good idea's! Especialy the 10 psi-point for the whole squad would fit very well.
I don't think it matters them being a bit more powerfull then the normal Terminators as obviously they would face far more powerfull enemies then the stealers.

Worked out nicely, this could go a long way!

Patriarch
31-08-2009, 18:46
Suggestions:

Meltagun - drop to one dice (otherwise a stealer has a 1/36 chance of surviving, might as well make it auto-kill), lose overwatch (it's not a rapid fire weapon), increase to 12 squares.
Plasmagun - drop to 4+, overheats on any double when you take a sustained shot or in overwatch, but only fatal on a 5+. Still way too easy to kill the broodlord though.
Flamer - drop to 4+ (they aren't that good, otherwise termies would take them instead).
Make 90 degree turns free if they are combined with a movement action (as per genestealers). Powered armour marines are more manouvrable than terminators after all.
Heavy bolter - either drop the ammo/reloads (20 shots is fiddly to record considering they aren't much better than storm bolters), or say it runs out on a double 1. I'm assuming a heavy bolter is 1AP to fire, can't be combined with movement.
Missile launcher: range UL, 2APs to fire (no movement). Krak missile - kills stealer/door on a 2+; frag missile - instant section effect, kills stealers /blips on 5+.
The original rules had a suicide grenade option, 2APs allow you to hold a grenade which will kill the marine and his attacking stealer if he loses in CC.

doghouse
31-08-2009, 19:38
Got some nice stuff going here, cheers for the suggestions guys. :)

In regards to the heavy bolter that might be a good idea to do away with the ammo counter to simplify things a little. It's unlikely given the size of the ammo pack that they are going to be running out of ammo mid fight anyway.

I had concidered the free ninety degrees turn but was worried that it'd take something away from the movement and agility of the stealers. That's why I thought the sideways movement would make them a little more agile than terminators but not enough to rival the stealers.

In regards to the plasma gun might it be worth taking the kill down to 4+ as suggested and having the marine also wounded in the event of an overheat on 4+ as well. That way there is an element of risk involved in employing such a powerful weapon.

I wasn't sure about adding the missile launcher mainly because it doesn't really seem suited to a boarding action and gives the marines an additional area effect weapon when they really should be relying on the flamer in that respect and the melta for destroying doors.

snottlebocket
31-08-2009, 20:00
In regards to the heavy bolter that might be a good idea to do away with the ammo counter to simplify things a little. It's unlikely given the size of the ammo pack that they are going to be running out of ammo mid fight anyway.


Considering it's an automatic weapon for laying down covering fire it seems more likely that it'll be out of ammo in a few seconds of sustained fire.

Znail
31-08-2009, 20:38
Meltagun - drop to one dice (otherwise a stealer has a 1/36 chance of surviving, might as well make it auto-kill), lose overwatch (it's not a rapid fire weapon), increase to 12 squares.

Flamer - drop to 4+ (they aren't that good, otherwise termies would take them instead).

Missile launcher: range UL, 2APs to fire (no movement). Krak missile - kills stealer/door on a 2+; frag missile - instant section effect, kills stealers /blips on 5+.

The original rules had a suicide grenade option, 2APs allow you to hold a grenade which will kill the marine and his attacking stealer if he loses in CC.
I was just about to post about removing overwatch as I gave it some thought and realised that as it is so would it be almost impossible to get past a Meltagun on Overwatch. It will still be a very reliable offensive weapon.

I considered the Flamer change as well, just worried it will be too bad at 4+. But with the roll for each square you move through so will it atleast be good for blocking a floor section.

Missile Launcher sounds ok. How about ammo count?

Suicide grenade sounds a bit too good. I guess we could let work if you use the new Guard option, ie, instead of rerolling the dice so can you choose to blow up.

eriochrome
31-08-2009, 21:12
I think the meltagun would be great at killing bulk heads but probably not so good against fast and nimble stealers. 2D6 4+ on stealers with autojam on overwatch(ie 1 overwatch shot), 2d6 2+ against bulkheads.

Mojaco
31-08-2009, 21:22
I did think about that but the problem is unbalancing it for the genestealer player and you start getting into the realms of them out performing the terminators themselves.
By restricting it to four you're limiting the player to the amount of ap points he can use a turn so he still has to rely on command points and twenty men is a lot to manage.
I didn't realise you meant you get twice the number of marines. 20 marines versus 10 termies seems like plenty of advantage.

doghouse
31-08-2009, 21:24
I'm not really sure that suicide grenades would be a good idea given the background concerning marines.
It seems a little out of character for them to blow themselves up rather than just go down fighting.

doghouse
31-08-2009, 21:25
I didn't realise you meant you get twice the number of marines. 20 marines versus 10 termies seems like plenty of advantage.

Yeah sorry about that mate, I should have really been a bit clearer on the number of marines involved. :)

El-Diablo
31-08-2009, 21:35
Found a possible typo in the Close Assault box, the bolter/bolt pistol looks like it needs swapping around.

Awesome work though mate.

dax
31-08-2009, 22:31
For Grey Knights these bits are from the Genestealer supplement:

Armed with Aegis Suit and Nemesis Force Weapon. There are rules for Nemesis force weapons I won't print them unless told I can but suffice to say they work like a Storm Bolter and a Force weapon but with additional close combat bonuses and rules for a Psychic Blast attack.

A Grey Knight squad consists of 1 Sergeant and 4 Grey Knights. A Grey knight sergeant is never less than a level 3 Pysker and gets an additional close combat bonus.

Working on the basis that a regular Terminator with a Storm Bolter and Power fist costs 1 point (original Deathwing force lists based on Psi points not force cards) a Level 2 Grey Knight costs 7 points (not taking into account the additional benefit of a Nemesis force weapon) and a Level 3 Sergeant costs 12 points. Therefore a Squad of Grey knights costs 40 points thats a lot of regular Terminators! ( a regular 5 man squad with 1 sergeant,1 heavy weapon and 3 with SB/PF is 10 points) so you need to seriously offset that somehow. Grey Knights can all be up to level 4 psykers but it just gets out of control at that stage.

I'm deliberately being a bit vague with the Grey Knight rules as I don't want to post anything to infringe on IP.

grimcrazy
31-08-2009, 22:39
I have two very old figures from the first game. They are:

Terminator inquisitor with digital weapons on a powerfist and a neddler combi-weapon

and an inquisitor with a force rod and a psyker-boltgun thingy

Were there ever any rules for them. The models are very cool...

WildAnimal
01-09-2009, 06:11
What does an "Power Armour Marine Tactical Squad" consist of?

10 marines with what weapons?

PS: Please post complete .PDF file when you are finish (high res/quality please). This looks good.

AndrewGPaul
01-09-2009, 07:26
I'm not really sure that suicide grenades would be a good idea given the background concerning marines.
It seems a little out of character for them to blow themselves up rather than just go down fighting.


They don't kill themselves with a grenade - they die, then the grenade goes off. So they do go down fighting.

The 1st ed. Power Armour rules are floating about the interwebs, by the way. IIRC, they had 4 AP, but could turn 90/180 for 0/1 AP, like 'stealers. Sergeants were D6-1 in cc, normal marines were D6-2 and the unfortunates with special/heavy weapons were D6-3.

precinctomega
01-09-2009, 07:50
I'm loving this stuff. I can't wait to see equivalent files for everything in 40k. I want Inquisition forces clearing Space Hulks of daemonic infestations, and Eldar infiltrating Necron tomb ships. I want IG performing desperate rear-guard actions against Orks on board Imperial vessels and Tau stumbling upon slumbering Chaos Marines in the heart of a broken battleship...

R.

Wickey the Viking
01-09-2009, 11:30
I'm loving this stuff. I can't wait to see equivalent files for everything in 40k. I want Inquisition forces clearing Space Hulks of daemonic infestations, and Eldar infiltrating Necron tomb ships. I want IG performing desperate rear-guard actions against Orks on board Imperial vessels and Tau stumbling upon slumbering Chaos Marines in the heart of a broken battleship...

R.
That sounds totaly awesome!!

Mojaco
01-09-2009, 12:19
Yea, and let's include rule for tanks and rules for open battlefields......

Patriarch
01-09-2009, 12:24
I didn't realise you meant you get twice the number of marines. 20 marines versus 10 termies seems like plenty of advantage.
It's not that good. Although its easier for PA marines to cover all directions (especially with cheaper turn actions), each corridor is still covered by a single marine, who now has only a regular bolter. Only having a single dice to defend your lines with is tough, even with the new sustained rules. Once they break in, the stealers have a field day, as the marines don't get even a fighting chance in CC.

Basically, PA marines are all about special weapons, and every marine being backed up by a second with bolter on overwatch for when (not if) the front man gets swamped. The mass of marines kind of shuffles forward on overwatch and loses its outlying members like an ablative shield.

Znail
01-09-2009, 14:33
The SH rules arent that suitable for shootouts between two shooty sides, so while the rules can be adapted so wont it be that fun. Alternative terrain with larger rooms and more complex terrain rules could help it out somewhat. But its still best with the basic melee vs shooty setup.

Powerarmors are pretty easy to make rules for as the idea is basicly to make 2 Powerarmor marines worth 1 Terminator. This is made easy by giving the Boltguns half the firepower of a Stormbolter. The greater numbers are both an advantage and a downside, but in the end I think its an interesting change to make for a bit of extra varity.

Grey Knights are also pretty easy as they are mostly like normal Terminators, but get the psi instead of heavy weapons and sergeant. I think it works out pretty well. They dont have to fight Daemons, but you can use the Genestealers or even use Daemon models, but with the Genestealer rules for simplicty.

Daemons could be interesting to add as opponents as they are fairly similar to Genestealers mostly. Some rough ideas:
You can choose wichever type of daemon you want when you reveal a blip (this is their main advantage).
Daemonettes - Genestealers but -1 in assault. (note that the above advantage is why they are worse).
Bloodletters - moves like Genestealers, but 5 AP and assaults for 2D6+1.
Plaguebearers - moves like Terminators (incl 4 AP), assaults for 1D6-2, 4+ save from death.
Horrors - moves like Genestealers, but 4 AP, 1D3 in assault, 1 Horror can use a psi-power for free each turn:
Warpblast - Shoot attack with unlimted range - roll 1D6 for each revealed (not blips) Horror on the board, kills Terminator for each 6 rolled (4+ or 5+ for Power armors?). Note that its one Horror that does the shooting and his LOS limits what he can kill.

I chose a psi-power instead of giving the horrors normal shooting weapons as it gets pretty difficult for the Terminators quickly if they get outshot by the blips. But this version of Horrors can be usefull if the Terminators are well entrenched. Plageubearers was also a bit difficult, but I think they will work out like this and they can be used to soak up bullets basicly. These rules are ment to be used for a mixed Daemon force and I think if you want to use only one kind then its probobly best to use counts-as Genestealers.

Kebabyuchenko
01-09-2009, 15:51
I've scanned an old WD containing the old power armour rules. I don't know how to make them available for everyone tho'. I'm going through all my old WD's for Space Hulk articles so I can do the same. I've already scanned two for Traitor Termies, I found Eldar, Harlequins and some extra missions and floor tiles etc. Any help in how to make them available for download would be awesome.

Kebabyuchenko xxx

Ben
01-09-2009, 16:46
I'm really liking this.

I agree the flamer should be 4+, and the meltagun should definitely be one dice on a 2+.

On the other hand how are the PA marines going to be able to kill the broodlord?

But double the number of marines also means you have to move them within the time limit, which is going to get tricky.

fiore hellheart
01-09-2009, 16:59
I'm really liking this.

I agree the flamer should be 4+, and the meltagun should definitely be one dice on a 2+.

On the other hand how are the PA marines going to be able to kill the broodlord?

But double the number of marines also means you have to move them within the time limit, which is going to get tricky.

Maybe you make it so that a second marine behind can shoot past one so two have to combine fire to kill it?

EG:

A-B-C F


A= PA Marine
B= PA Marine
C= PA Marine
F= Broodlord

So marine C shoots at F, marine B can also shoot at F but marine A can not. So combined marines B and C need to both get kills.

Could work.

Znail
01-09-2009, 17:09
Hehe, I realised something funny. You could play Grey Knights in power armor using the exact same rules as the normal ones for Terminators. They got the same Stormbolters after all, you could consider 1D6 in assault fair for them and Incinerator/Psycannon can be equalised with Heavy Flamer/Assault Cannon.

grimcrazy
01-09-2009, 17:16
I think grey knights were made for the first Space Hulk. dunno if they had missions though.

Patriarch
01-09-2009, 17:34
I think grey knights were made for the first Space Hulk. dunno if they had missions though.
They were an alternative force list for the final mission in "Genestealer". In the original, the marines have 10 terminators including 5 (!) librarians to kill the Patriarch. The GK alternative was the same mission, but with 5 GK terminators. Each terminator was basically a librarian with psychic blast, parry and an "autokill" CC ability; the brother-sergeant added +2 CPs and an extra +1 in CC.

Ben
01-09-2009, 19:48
I don't think combined fire would work. Would making the meltagun 2 dice on a 3+ work?

The problem is now balancing single dice weapons against tough to kill.

Cygnusmaximus
01-09-2009, 20:09
I'm loving this stuff. I can't wait to see [...] Eldar infiltrating Necron tomb ships...

That would be easy enough with the core rules. Just swap out the terminators for appropriate Necrons and the 'Stealers with Howling Banshees.

Though you probably wanted hordes of Necrons and only a few Eldar.

I suppose you could just use LOTS of Flayed Ones rather than Genestealers...

Souleater
01-09-2009, 20:35
Or, just say 'Hey, in Space Tomb, Flayed Ones are quite good in assault. Certainly man enough to take out your Dire Avengers!' :D

twig66
01-09-2009, 22:51
We sometimes used to play that less armoured troops could go on one knee by spending 1 or 2 AP. We put a marker by them and others could then fire over them from the square behind. They could not move and it cost 1 to stand up again.

Damocles8
02-09-2009, 02:43
I'd come up with rules for orks as replacements for genestealers.....

WildAnimal
02-09-2009, 05:18
Problem solving with the Power Armour marines vs the Broodlord:

Its easy. you need two '6' to kill the broodlord. Just make the power armoured marines (with boltguns) have to shoot twice in a row (1 AP + 1 AP). And both shoots should be a natural 6 in a row.

Hellebore
02-09-2009, 11:47
I would personally go with power armoured marines rolling D3s in combat, sergeant with chainsword getting D3+1 and Parry, and the powerfist guy getting D6.

You could give all non terminator sized creatures the ability to walk diagonally between a model and a wall which terminators and genestealers can't do.

With enemies with ranged weapons, I'd perhaps make them use the timer too.

Heavy bolters I'd just give 2 reloads instead of 20 shots.

For Space Wolf Wolf Guard I think treating them all as sergeants for melee would be a simple and effective way of representing their differences.


For alternate teams, I think aspect warriors would be cool. I think mixed squads would work best, more like Kill Teams than Codex squads. So an Aspect squad is 4 Dire Avengers, 2 Striking Scorpions, 2 Howling Banshees, and 1 dark reaper.

However, it would be easier to balance using pure squads.

Something like:

Eldar: Make 90 degree turn for free, 5 APs each.

Howling Banshee
Shuriken pistol 12 6+ Overwatch, Sustained Fire
Power Sword D6+1 Parry
Banshee Mask First Combat action taken against them reduces dice rolled by 1

Striking Scorpion
Shuriken pistol 12 6+ Overwatch, Sustained Fire
Scorpion Sword D6 Parry
Mandiblasters When ever an enemy spends a move action to get into a square in front of the model roll a D6, on a 6 they've been killed by the mandiblasters. This happens before any other actions are made.

Dire Avenger
Dire Catapult (As Storm Bolter)
Melee D3

Banshee Exarch
Shuriken pistol 12 6+ Overwatch, Sustained Fire
Executioner 3D6+1 Parry
Banshee Mask First Combat action taken against them reduces dice rolled by 1

Leap: Whilst the Exarch is alive any Banshee may move through an enemy square, so long as there is an empty square they may move into.

Scorpion Exarch
Shuriken pistol 12 6+ Overwatch, Sustained Fire
Biting Blade 2D6+2 Parry
Mandiblasters When ever an enemy spends a move action to get into a square in front of the model roll a D6, on a 6 they've been killed by the mandiblasters. This happens before any other actions are made.

Crushing Blow: Whilst the Exarch is alive all striking scorpions receive +1 to combat actions.

Avenger Exarch
2 Dire Catapults unlimited 2D6 5+ Overwatch sustainted fire
Dire Sword D6+1 Parry

Blade Storm: Whilst the Exarch is alive all Dire Avengers may reroll one of their dire catapult dice when firing.


Hellebore

Znail
02-09-2009, 12:27
Broodlord isnt realy a problem as he wont be present normaly. In the pre-made missions so is he only around when you also have the Librarian, so you would need something to match that anyway. Its overthinking it a bit to try and balance power armors against the Broodlord as they only need to face him if you chose to include him and then you can make sure they get something to balance that out.

nedius
02-09-2009, 14:32
Before I heard that they were releasing a new space hulk, a few of us at my local GW were working on a fan made 3rd edition.

It included rules for lots of different races, very simmilar to what you have suggested!

Anyway, I agree with a lot of the comments here that you need to make some of the weapons less effective. From the play-testing we did, we found that only rolling one D6 for overwatch did not noticeably reduce the SMs effectiveness in overwatch, whilst removing the threat of jams. This actually left us feeling that the SMs were slighly more effective than terminators!

The problem with replacing terminators is that they aren't that powerful to begin with, and so they're pretty hard to make less effective. The SMs may only roll one D6, but not being able to jam is a HUGE plus, which to my mind outweighs the reduced dice count. Essentially, we found 10 SMs were a stronger force than 5 terminators.

Has anyone else tried it out?

Znail
02-09-2009, 14:53
Jamming is somewhat less of an issue in 3rd edition thou as you can clear the jam and keep overwatch during the Stealer turn. Personaly I think it works out pretty well with the basic marines vs basic terminators. What could be a problem are the special/heavy weapons and those might need some tweaks in the end.

nedius
02-09-2009, 15:10
You could clear a jam in 1st ed too, but you're still relying on saving a good number of command points to get through a stealer phase. Jams are still a big danger in 3rd ed, and being jam-free is a big bonus.

AndrewGPaul
03-09-2009, 07:55
The difference is, in 1st edition, spending CPs on a Marine caused him to lose Overwatch. If he jams, the 'stealer gets 3 actions before the Marine can fire again, and he needs to spend 3 CP to do it;
'stealer action 0: Marine fires and jams.
'stealer action 1: spend CP to clear jam
'stealer action 2: spend 2 CPs to go back on Overwatch
'stealer action 3: fire

In addition, the jam persisted into the Marine's turn.
Now, you can spend a CP to clear the jam without losing overwatch, and you only miss 1 'stealer action, not 2.

Mind you, now that a 90degree turn isn't a separate action for 'stealers, that cuts down the number of shots a Marine gets on Overwatch (as well as removing the option of the "dance of death" moves to try to get the Marine to jam).

Znail
03-09-2009, 13:19
Exactly, AndrewGPaul! Overwatch has never been stronger and it may even be a bit problomatic to play 2nd edition missions with the new rules as losing Following Fire hardly makes up for sustained fire during Overwatch and using CP's during the Stealer turn. 1st edition atleast had the extra boost from no cap for sustained fire. Hmm, I guess the extra large blips for 2nd edition counts for some as well.

Some old missions looks fairly unplayable with the new rules. Long corridors are basicly impossible for the Stealers to get past. The new rules require shorter fire lanes for there to be a chance to get past Overwatch. Many of the old maps have long long corridors that in 2nd edition you could still not be totaly sure to hold against large numbers.

Hellebore
03-09-2009, 13:23
I found that jams were the marines' bane when on overwatch. It didn't matter if they had CPs to unjam, the sheer amount of shooting they were forced to do meant they'd just keep jamming.

I would lose 2 or 3 genestealers to a marine on overwatch but the 4th one would get him as he'd jammed his gun by that time without any CPs to unjam.

Hellebore

Znail
03-09-2009, 13:27
I found that jams were the marines' bane when on overwatch. It didn't matter if they had CPs to unjam, the sheer amount of shooting they were forced to do meant they'd just keep jamming.

I would lose 2 or 3 genestealers to a marine on overwatch but the 4th one would get him as he'd jammed his gun by that time without any CPs to unjam.

Hellebore

Are you talking about playing 2nd edition missions with the 3rd edition rules now? Or are you talking about the 3rd edition missions? From the little I have seen of 3rd edition so does the maps looks smaller with shorter fire lanes as they are obviously ment to be played with the new rules.

Hellebore
04-09-2009, 03:12
Are you talking about playing 2nd edition missions with the 3rd edition rules now? Or are you talking about the 3rd edition missions? From the little I have seen of 3rd edition so does the maps looks smaller with shorter fire lanes as they are obviously ment to be played with the new rules.

Both. Overwatch has a range of 12 squares. If I'm causing jams in 3rd ed so that their guns are useless then 2nd ed games with longer halls shouldn't be a problem because the same limitation will apply.

EDIT: Also, the first I think 5 missions in 3rd ed are the same as 2nd ed (which may or may not have taken them from 1st, I don't own it). So at least initially there isn't any bias due to the rules.


Hellebore

Patriarch
04-09-2009, 18:49
Both. Overwatch has a range of 12 squares. If I'm causing jams in 3rd ed so that their guns are useless then 2nd ed games with longer halls shouldn't be a problem because the same limitation will apply.
EDIT: Also, the first I think 5 missions in 3rd ed are the same as 2nd ed (which may or may not have taken them from 1st, I don't own it). So at least initially there isn't any bias due to the rules.
Hellebore

Yep, they are all from 1st ed one way or another. In many cases the Captain from the Deathwing missions is replaced by the new Librarian.

doghouse
04-09-2009, 19:23
I've taken everything on board and am currently putting together a campaign using the power armoured marines. I'll post a link when it's done.

Space Hulk is very much scenario driven so what I'm doing is basing it around the Blood Angels marines of the second company to tie in with the Terminator scenarios.
So as the Terminators are off deep in the hulk power armoured squads are securing secondary objectives with a narrative to go with it. This should address some of the balance issues and you won't have to worry so much about running into the Brood Lord because he's off fighting the Terminators.

Cygnusmaximus
04-09-2009, 19:39
Awesome! I'm looking forward to seeing the end result.

I have to say that I get all excited when the advertisement above a thread is an ad trying to sell me dog houses!

mrt181
04-09-2009, 19:42
Regarding GK,
instead of all the hassle with psi points for the squad or every marine just apply the normal terminator rules.

Don't forget that GK are

...immune to fear and sights that would blast the sanity of even 'normal' Space Marines

So basically normal marines would be penalized while fighting daemons, GK not.

Replace the flamer with the incinerator and the assault cannon with the psycannon.

An idea for the psycannon in SH.
Range: unlimited
Dice: 2W6
Kills: 5+
Special: Overwatch, 10 Shots, Reload, Penetrating

Penetrating means that if you manage to kill an enemy and there is in the line of fire another enemy behind the first one, not necessarily adjacent, you can kill the second enemy on 6+. The psycannon does not malfunction.

dahli.llama
04-09-2009, 19:46
Good stuff. I can't wait to see the final results and am especially interested in rules for other races (Eldar specifically).

neXus6
04-09-2009, 19:51
The ability to crouch a model, or basicly allowing one model behind to fire through another model, was something I had thought about for Storm Troopers to bring them up a little in strength so you wouldn't need a whole platoon of them.

Naturally if Power Armoured marines were going to be the "weakest" thing you were using then if you felt they needed a little boost then giving this abillity to them would be fine.

doghouse
04-09-2009, 21:16
Right I think I got everything now.

The following attachment will be the reference sheet for the power armoured marines representing squad Decimus and squad Titus for the campaign but you probably could use them in the standard scenarios if you wanted.
The weapons load I've gone for is to represent the gear carried by the two squads but there is nothing to stop you using this as the basis of your own power armoured marines rules and including other weapons.

They are as yet untested so I'll probably refine them when I get a few test cames under my belt.
In the meantime here's the reference sheet. Each Tactical squad has one sergeant armed with either of the two options available, seven bolter marines, one special weapon marine and a heavy bolter marine.

The campaign itself is set as the events of the main campaign are unfolding. The two tactical squads are sent to secure secondary objects but uncover something slightly more sinister lurking in the darkness...

neXus6
04-09-2009, 23:05
I like it, pretty much exactly what I had in mind myself but layed out in a neat propper way rather than floating around in my head or scribbled down on scraps of paper.

Great work. :D

doghouse
04-09-2009, 23:39
Thanks mate, with everyone on here's imput it's coming along nicely and hopefully people will post their own variations on here as well.
Maybe some other chapters would be cool with different squad weapon options.
For those that are interested I've started a second thread tackling the Tau here in the space hulk forums. ;)

ml2sjw
05-09-2009, 14:30
Don't forget Tactical marines major advantage in 1st ed Frag grenades. the Space hulk bible has full details but they could be thrown up to 12 squares. Affected an area the same way as a flamer and killed on a 4 plus(IIRC) added a new level to the game allowing for room clearence drills and all sorts of fun.

Helped to make up for the limited firepower of the bolter and flamer when facing large hordes of stealers.

On a CC front D3 means marines will never make it when they are attacked. Period D6-1 as per the 1st ed rules is enough of a handicap believe me. D3 is best saved for mission specalists (scientists astropaths and the like) civilians Who aren't meant to fight, or coming in very large numbers as in the case of a personal favorite from back in the day zombies!

doghouse
05-09-2009, 15:09
Yeah, back in first ed they used to have access to frag and crack with close assault squad sergeants allowed melta bombs and devastator sergeants plasma grenades as well.
I did think about including grenades but it was giving the marines too great an advantage, it's much more fun in my opinion to struggle on with the mission with the basic gear.


I think the main failing of the first edition space hulk was the introduction of the army lists where you'd pay 6pts for a tactical squad and then be allowed upgrades at an additional cost.
Both players made a secret bid and who ever wrote the lowest points total got to be the marine player with that number of points to spend on his force.

It sounded like a good idea but took the game in the wrong direction I feel. I think space hulk should be best kept as a narrative scenario driven campaign system.

doghouse
06-09-2009, 16:53
http://i30.tinypic.com/2ih42.jpg

doghouse
06-09-2009, 17:39
http://i28.tinypic.com/2uesitj.jpg

http://i25.tinypic.com/6nqgl0.jpg

Malakian
06-09-2009, 17:51
Having 20 marines in a small mission is really going to make the corridors overcrowded. It looks dumb and it doesn't feel right.

What I would do is just replacing the termiantors with PA marines combat squad style.

1 sergeant 1hvy weapon 1special weapon 7 cannon fodders

just my 2cents

doghouse
06-09-2009, 18:23
That's intentional. This is just the first mission in the campaign and is a build up to the rest of the missions.
The idea is to introduce the players to the power armoured marines with a relatively straight forward mission before moving onto the rest of the campaign.
So when you get to the later bigger missions and the storyline progresses you will find yourself more thinly spread out and have to adapt your tactics in order to survive.

Malakian
06-09-2009, 18:28
Never the less, 1 full squad would do the introducing just fine. And I feel that you would want to have 2 tile sets to play crowded missions.

I started playing space hulk from the first edition and thats just how my play testings have been.

AndrewGPaul
06-09-2009, 18:44
Chucking 20 marines onto a relatively small map like that means the Marine player gets to practise moving all those guys about without getting in each others' way.

doghouse
06-09-2009, 19:07
AndrewGPaul: You hit the nail on the head mate. :)

You don't have to worry about spreading out and get to try out the special, heavy and sergeant options in a fairly short mission.
It's still competitive for the stealer player because he has two options for stopping the marines.

Malakian: Speaking from my own first ed experience games with lots of models can work fine. We used to play with guard platoons back in the day and never had any problems. :)
I can honestly see your point for having one squad but it's important to the narrative at this point to have two and the player needs to get used to handling a larger number of troops. :)

Malakian
06-09-2009, 19:10
I can see your point but..
Just a matter of taste :)

I want to have a word about the Power Armour rules...

doghouse
06-09-2009, 19:17
Yeah I can see yours as well mate. :)

That's why I've been careful to say that this was supposed to represent marines in my campaign rather than generic marines and gone with a strong narrative.

I think a lot of us Space hulk vets have different views due to the number of fan based versions that have sprung up over the years due to lack of support. And at some point or another us first ed guys have all had a bash at expanding the rule set.

It is such a simple system to adapt but everyone is going to have an opinion on the best way of doing things.

Hopefully my campaign turns out to be just one of many that others create to show their support for the game. :)

Malakian
06-09-2009, 19:40
Have you thought about reducing the cost of 90* turns to 0
also Moving backwards to 1?


And some math hammer
Plasma kills a genestealer 100% of times with cost of 1 AP, sustained bonus is useless
Melta kills only with 83,33% of times with a cost of 1 AP with no overwatch capabilites

so Plasma is alot better it's actually better than an assault cannon. I would have plasma over assaultcannon anyday with these rules. Chance of melting the plasma is only 3% :D. Ok Assaultcannon
kills the target even more likely, but Plasma has no ammunition :)

The problem here is that the Dice you roll to shoot is to show how easy it is to hit a genestealer.
Assaultcannon shoots more bullets in shorter period of time, so its easier to hit, naturally.

It's quite hard to fit plasma and melta to these rules becouse they are made to penetrate armour
and there is no armour modifier in the game.

Melta/ and Plasma could negate the Broodlords Hard to kill trait?

doghouse
06-09-2009, 19:55
Yeah I originally thought about the ninety degree thing but felt that it took something away from the stealer's manuverability.
I like the one point to move backwards thing though as it does create a distinction between the terminators and the marines.
What do you suggest for the plasma and melta gun?

I was thinking maybe dropping a D6 for the plasma gun to tone it down. Increasing the AP
might cause problems for the plasma gun bu might work for the melta.

Malakian
06-09-2009, 20:02
Yeah you could drop the d6 for plasma but then you would lose the overheat ability, and really you should add that plasma or melta or both would negate the hard to kill rule, it would really give PA marines something against Broodlord. Something for Broodlord to be afraid of!




How about something like this
..............dice...kill...notes
Plasma.....1d6....4+...Overheat on roll of 1, ?Overwatch?, Sustained Fire, Negates BroodLords Hard to kill rule

Overheat: Gun Overheats, and you can't use it until end of turn. a bit too punishing isnt it?

OR

just the same as Storm Bolter but with antibroodlord bonus and overheat AND the second edition overkill
rule

//sry i keep updating my post check the overkill suggestion :)

doghouse
06-09-2009, 20:17
Sounds good to me mate. :)

The one D6 rule brings it more in line with the bolter and negate hard to kill like you say makes the weapon an ideal boss killer.

I think that the 40k mindset comes into play with the wounded in the event of an overheat action.
I quite like the idea of it not being able to fire again untill the end of the turn, it keeps it simple which is what you want when moving a lot of miniatures around in a limited time span.

What about increasing the AP on the melta by 1 and adding the negates the hard to kill rule?

Malakian
06-09-2009, 20:48
then melta would kill broodlord 166% and plasma would do the job better with chance
to jam with the roll1 66%. which is better? both would instakill broodlord anyways so I would pick plasma coz i have the chance to shoot 4 times with some luck.

I need some more time to think :)

Be aware i will update my post in 10mins ;)

----------

I just read your post.. this what i had in mind is just the opposite but I will post it anyways.. Gives something to think about.


........dice....kill...notes
Plasma..2d6......5+....Sustained Fire, Overwatch, Overheat*, Overkill**
Melta...1d6......2+....Melta***

*Overheat, on a roll of double 1's Marine Melts
**Overkill, if you score hit Plasma kills the target and any 1 adjacent/diagonal Model next to the target in LoS
***Melta, negates Hard to Kill trait

I like your Melta range reduction

doghouse
06-09-2009, 20:51
Ok mate.

Here's an updated list taking into account your suggestion for the plasma gun and I've reduced the melta range to 8.
Ideally the melta should really be there for taking out bulkheads and doors rather than the Broodlord.

http://i29.tinypic.com/2ijlmky.jpg

Malakian
06-09-2009, 21:09
Something inside me still says that Plasma needs to kill the bearer if overheated :)
(check my last post if you didnt already)
. Gives nice taste of risk blasting away with your gun. If you add it to Overwatch you will think twise to do so!

Ramius4
07-09-2009, 00:04
check out this site for the old rules on power armored marines as well as other races. In fact... ALL the old rules in one handy PDF.

http://www.mediafire.com/?wvzntezzwwm

Much of it is similar enough for easy conversion (or direct translation) since they haven't changed the essential game mechanics from the previous two editions.

Malakian
07-09-2009, 10:44
The rules in bible are really old and needs to be simplified and modernizised IMO,

doghouse
08-09-2009, 21:48
After some rigorous play testing I now have a final set of rules I'm happy with.

The plasma gun was pretty lethal but the overheat rules did come into play several times resulting in his death in one instance through overheat and getting mauled by a stealer because he couldn't fire again that turn.

The melta was effective but it's limited range stopped it from being too overpowered. I also removed the move and fire similtaniously because although it's technically an assault weapon it didn't feel right. Removing it made it feel more balanced rather than having the guy increase the range with every move he made.

The free ninety degree turn took something away from the stealers, the marines felt far too agile compared to the stealers.

The heavy bolter performed well but two reloads was too much. Only once in four test games did it use them both.

Overall I'm happy with the final rules for this campaign as they are now as seen below.

http://i32.tinypic.com/24zhxtz.jpg

goroul
08-09-2009, 23:05
Looks ace! I shall look forward to using them.

It does however seem that you have missed the "overheat" in the plasma gun's "notes" section- at least compared to the earlier rule set.

Again, great work.

doghouse
09-09-2009, 16:36
Thanks mate. Oh yeah never noticed that. :D

I'll change it asap. ;)