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Sleby
02-09-2009, 11:14
Figured it would be nice to have a single thread for rules questions.

I have one...can a marine use command points during the stealers turn to go into overwatch or guard?

Narf
02-09-2009, 11:26
yes you can spend a command point in the stealers turn, each time they perform and action, you cannot go into overwatch though, just shoot em

ceimeifukan
02-09-2009, 14:10
just to tack onto this I have a couple of questions too.

Can a marine shoot a stealer in an adjacent square or does he have to perform a combat attack?

Can a marine intentionaly fall down a ladder? - I doubt he can but it'd love to accidentaly kill the almost indestructable broodlord by dropping a terminator on it.

Bookwrak
02-09-2009, 17:15
I'm pretty sure the rulebook says you 'have to' roll for making the ladder check.

mattjgilbert
02-09-2009, 17:29
Yes you can shoot a stealer in an adjacent square. You do not have to attack it in CC.

Sleby
02-09-2009, 18:47
yes you can spend a command point in the stealers turn, each time they perform and action, you cannot go into overwatch though, just shoot em

Could you tell me where it says this in rulebook? I searched through it last night and since we couldn't find it anywhere we were allowing marines to go into overwatch during the stealer turn! No wonder it was so easy for the marines to win. :p

mattjgilbert
02-09-2009, 19:10
When you spend command points in the stealers turn you can use them to perform a single action in response to an action. The action you can perform can be for more than one CP and doesn't have to be a shooting action.

Narf
02-09-2009, 20:59
yes but my point was you cant go into overwatch, but you can shoot them anyway using a command point instead - besides if you were that worried about them, why didnt you use the command points to go into overwatch in your own turn ;)

rev
02-09-2009, 21:02
Does the stealer get his blip reinforcements in his first turn?

i.e. is he moving 4 blips in his first turn as he 'starts' the game with 2 in hand already and then gets 2 'reinforcements' in his first turn?

Rev

IAMNOTHERE
02-09-2009, 21:09
Could you tell me where it says this in rulebook? I searched through it last night and since we couldn't find it anywhere we were allowing marines to go into overwatch during the stealer turn! No wonder it was so easy for the marines to win. :p

Pg 11 although it doesn't say anything about not being allowed to go into overwatch. It says you can perform an action.

Checking the "Action Point Table" on the back of the book lists the available actions and includes over watch. Ergo I'd say you could go into overwatch if you saw a stealer perform an action.

Then you could shoot it on it's next action as you wern't in over watch until it finished its action.

ceimeifukan
02-09-2009, 21:24
Does the stealer get his blip reinforcements in his first turn?

i.e. is he moving 4 blips in his first turn as he 'starts' the game with 2 in hand already and then gets 2 'reinforcements' in his first turn?

Rev

Thats how I read it

axabrax
03-09-2009, 01:08
Here's something I want confirmed rather than a question: If you fire the Heavy Flamer you may do absolutely nothing else: zero, nil, nada. No change of facing, no movement, no peeing your armor, etc. Even with the command points. You can however fire the flamer more than once if you have line of sight.

This is how I read the rules, but it's so freaking limiting I just wanted to confirm it.

(God that Suicide Mission is difficult to win if you're a marine!) :eek:

Hellebore
03-09-2009, 01:40
That's how it appears Axabrax. They cost 2 AP and cannot be used in the same action as a move or turn and can't go on overwatch.

Ok my question. It says marines cannot make 180 degree turns. But it says they can make 90 degree turns. So can I make 2 90 degree turns? They are each a seperate action but you end up having turned 180 degrees.

If yes then they should really simply list 180 as a 2AP action. If not then you're left with really weird rules where you cannot make 2 consecutive 90 degree turns (or 2 90 degree turns in the same direction during your turn), despite it not actually saying that.

Hellebore

Sleby
03-09-2009, 02:04
So you can go into overwatch during the genestealers turn?

Hellebore: Yeah you can make two 90 degree turns, they just can't do a 180 straight up like genestealers.

Hellebore
03-09-2009, 02:07
But why do they list 180 degrees as "-"? You can do a 180 degree turn, it just takes 2APs to do it. It lists 180 degrees as 1AP for a stealer, why couldn't they list it as 2AP for a terminator?

It's this particular point that made me wonder if you really could turn 180.

Hellebore

Sleby
03-09-2009, 02:13
I believe it's to represent that the terminators are nowhere near as agile as the genestealers who are able to complete the 180 for 1AP. Also remember that by doing two 90 degree turns you'll also be able to get in two free shots if you want them.

I really want some definitive answer on this overwatch thing though :p

Sleby
03-09-2009, 02:17
Here's something I want confirmed rather than a question: If you fire the Heavy Flamer you may do absolutely nothing else: zero, nil, nada. No change of facing, no movement, no peeing your armor, etc. Even with the command points. You can however fire the flamer more than once if you have line of sight.

This is how I read the rules, but it's so freaking limiting I just wanted to confirm it.

(God that Suicide Mission is difficult to win if you're a marine!) :eek:

I think what it means is that you cannot use the 'free shot' with a move or turn to fire the heavy flamer. My understanding is that you can still move and fire the heavy flamer but if you want to move 1 space and fire it would cost 3AP unlike the 1AP it would cost for a marine with stormbolter.

But I could be wrong and I probably am since I can't figure out this overwatch query :p

Hellebore
03-09-2009, 02:21
I believe it's to represent that the terminators are nowhere near as agile as the genestealers who are able to complete the 180 for 1AP. Also remember that by doing two 90 degree turns you'll also be able to get in two free shots if you want them.


Yeah sure. But they list 3 seperate actions a terminator can do as costing 2APs, but specifically list 180 degree turns as "-".



I really want some definitive answer on this overwatch thing though :p

I don't see why you can't. It's one of those 2AP actions. You can perform an action per genestealer action. If you've got command points left and a genestealer performs an action you can spend 1CPs and go on overwatch.

Hellebore

iluvatar18
03-09-2009, 02:46
Ok, you're all going to say this is a retarded question but here goes:

I got my Space Hulk literally an hour ago, and how many action points does each side get? It states genestealers get 6 and marines get 4. Is that per model? Or per side?

And the command points for the space marines, they can go to any marine as many times as you have right? So if you draw a six, you can theoretically get 10 actions on one marine?

And I ask because if it is per model, how can the marines get it done in 3 minutes. If it is per side, that is just not enough actions. So please help quick! (Me and my friend want to start soon)

Hellebore
03-09-2009, 02:52
Per model. Command Points can be used any way you want.

Yes it makes it hard for the marine player. That's the point of the timer.

Hellebore

iluvatar18
03-09-2009, 02:55
Wait, so won't it almost always be smarter for the genestealer player to flip "3" blips because that becomes 18 actions and can go other directions...

Which is my other question. If the genestealer players ops to reveal the blips, can the genestealers make actions the turn they flip (Since I know you can't move the blip than reveal)? Otherwise they are very open to kill...

Sleby
03-09-2009, 04:54
Wait, so won't it almost always be smarter for the genestealer player to flip "3" blips because that becomes 18 actions and can go other directions...

Which is my other question. If the genestealer players ops to reveal the blips, can the genestealers make actions the turn they flip (Since I know you can't move the blip than reveal)? Otherwise they are very open to kill...

Well that's where all the strategy comes in. It may be more beneficial to have the marine player worry about what number is under the blip, but if you're just want to run straight at him then yeah, it probably is better to reveal it.

AndrewGPaul
03-09-2009, 08:07
Plus, blips take up less space than 3 'stealers. Obvious, but I've seen someone get 15 'stealers out of a 3x3 room. :)

Hellebore, the reason a 180degree turn is not allowed is so that you can't turn right round if a 'stealer is sneaking up on you. As it stands, it takes 2 CPs and 2 'stealer actions for a Marine to turn right round. If a 180degree turn was a 2AP action, it would only take him 1 'stealer action.

iluvatar18, the Marine player should be doing all his planning in the 'stealer turn (as well as having a general strategy to begin with). That way, you spend those 3 mins moving models, not thinking about where they should be.

Hellebore
03-09-2009, 09:27
Plus, blips take up less space than 3 'stealers. Obvious, but I've seen someone get 15 'stealers out of a 3x3 room. :)

Hellebore, the reason a 180degree turn is not allowed is so that you can't turn right round if a 'stealer is sneaking up on you. As it stands, it takes 2 CPs and 2 'stealer actions for a Marine to turn right round. If a 180degree turn was a 2AP action, it would only take him 1 'stealer action.


Good a sensible explanation. I hadn't thought about actions being performed in the stealers' turn, nor the fact that an action is an action irrespective of the number of APs used. Thus a space marine MUST spend two ACTIONS to turn around.

Hellebore

boxjuggler
03-09-2009, 10:20
Lurking question.

If I read it right, the genestealer player can not activate a blip placed as a reinforcement that turn, if a terminator is within 6 squares of said entry point. However that blip can be activated the following turn even if there is still a terminator within 6 squares? Also any blips that happen to already be at an entry point may come on to the board as normal regardless of terminator presence?

mattjgilbert
03-09-2009, 11:21
Flamer can move and turn and fire all in the same turn. A flamer cannot however, move (or turn) and fire as part of the same action.

And yes...correct to the Lurking question.

nedius
03-09-2009, 11:38
Here's my interpretations of the rules questions so far. These are based on my readings of the 3rd ed rule books, and experience of the previous two versions!

Flamers: The flamer can move and fire in the same action phase, but not the same action (as mattjgilbert said). A flamer marine could move (1 AP) and then fire (2 APs), spending 3 APs. It could not Move and Fire for 2APs in the wasy a storm bolter can move and fire for 1AP. This is demonstrated in the WD battle report of suicide mission, where action and command points are spent to run the flamer marine forward so he can flame the objective room in the Marine's action phase.

Overwatch: I found nothing that said you could not set overwatch, or Guard, in the stealer phase if you had sufficient command points. It's part of the list of actions, therefore can be performed. It costing 2CMD points is neither here nor there. You could also use 2CMD points to fire a flamer in responce to a stealer move. The rules allow one action in responce to a genestealer action, not 1CMD point per action.


turning: can't beat AndrewGPaul's answer!

Lurking: this one is interesting, will have to check. in previous editions, being in 6 squares essentially 'sealed' the entry point. Will have to look at the rules more closely on Sat!

rev
03-09-2009, 11:42
Lurking question.

If I read it right, the genestealer player can not activate a blip placed as a reinforcement that turn

I think a stealer player can convert a blip off the board, and move stealers on rather than a blip?


Wait, so won't it almost always be smarter for the genestealer player to flip "3" blips because that becomes 18 actions and can go other directions...


Also, blips don't have a facing, so pay no APs to turn meaning that they move faster/more mobile even than regular stealers in some cases.

mattjgilbert
03-09-2009, 11:51
Lurking: this one is interesting, will have to check. in previous editions, being in 6 squares essentially 'sealed' the entry point.The lurking rule has not changed. "Sealing" an enty area was a new action introduced in one of the supplements (Deathwing possibly). Lurking was always for 1 turn only and then the stealer player was free to move.

Sleby
03-09-2009, 12:06
Hellebore, the reason a 180degree turn is not allowed is so that you can't turn right round if a 'stealer is sneaking up on you. As it stands, it takes 2 CPs and 2 'stealer actions for a Marine to turn right round. If a 180degree turn was a 2AP action, it would only take him 1 'stealer action.

But how can the marine turn at all if the stealer is sneaking up on him? Doesn't he need LOS to react during the stealers move? Or are you just talking about him turning around in his next marine turn and needing to use 1 more point than a stealer would?

Also, the 2nd mission in the book uses that sealing rule. Both my friend and I failed hard at that one but I managed to redeem myself in the rescue mission! :p

AndrewGPaul
03-09-2009, 12:10
I'd need to check the rules. IIRC, you can spend CPs on a Marine if a 'stealer ends an action in LOS of a Marine. However, the Marine on which the CPs are spent need not be the one with LOS.

Alternatively, it could just be an oddity in rules layout. :)

Succurso
03-09-2009, 12:29
I believe this question has already been asked. But no answer.

When the stealer player gets his initial blips (2 in the case of suicide mission) and in his first turn he places them at whatever entrnace point he wants, does he get to move them that turn?

And does he get his reinforcment blips in the first turn as well? (again 2 in the case of suicide mission)

And do these get to move in the first turn as well? Or do they have to wait at an entrance for a turn?

shadow hunter
03-09-2009, 14:19
I didn't have a lot of time to look over the game last night (never played the original, only space crusade which was different and cant remember that now anyway.)

I have a couple of questions which I didn't immediately understand,

On over watch, why shoot a door if it closes? Am I reading that right?

With the flamer, what counts as being hit? From the pictures i see its a round template. Is it any moving space (square) touched by the template or all spaces in that section. When moving around a burning room, same question (squares touched or whole room).

It might be clear in the rule book, but I read it late last night after footy training and was tired so might not have read it right.

IAMNOTHERE
03-09-2009, 14:36
I'll have a pop at these.

With the overwatch one it's to do with a marine reacting to movement in his field of view but otherwise annoying.

With the flamer it's everything in the section is hit. So if you fire it at a 3 square room you get a lot but if you fire it at a 2 square corridor you get a little.

JohnPublic
03-09-2009, 15:15
Hellebore, the reason a 180degree turn is not allowed is so that you can't turn right round if a 'stealer is sneaking up on you. As it stands, it takes 2 CPs and 2 'stealer actions for a Marine to turn right round. If a 180degree turn was a 2AP action, it would only take him 1 'stealer action.
Doesn't the marine have to have line of sight to the stealer performing the action to react to it with a CP? If so, you may not turn at all to try and face a stealer sneaking on you as you can not see him.

Also, just to be clear, the nid player does get reinforcements on the first turn? Or does he only have the amount of blips that he "begins the game with?" For example, in Mission 1 will the nid player have two or four blips on his very first turn?

AndrewGPaul
03-09-2009, 15:41
I think a Marine needs LOS to the 'stealer to spend CPs, but those CPs can be spent on any Marine, not necessarily the one watching the 'stealer move.

As for Overwatch, the 'stealer must be in LOS at the end of its action - if it closes a door, no shot, IIRC.

Regarding reinforcement blips, I'd need to read the rules again before answering that one. Does the mission report in the lated WD (US #356 IIRC) imply one way or the other?

x_ReepeR_x
03-09-2009, 15:53
Doesn't the marine have to have line of sight to the stealer performing the action to react to it with a CP? If so, you may not turn at all to try and face a stealer sneaking on you as you can not see him.



Also, just to be clear, the nid player does get reinforcements on the first turn? Or does he only have the amount of blips that he "begins the game with?" For example, in Mission 1 will the nid player have two or four blips on his very first turn?

yes a marine must have line of sight to a stealer performing an action to react to it, this was explained better in 1st edition.

You start the mission with 2 blips and then you get 2 in your reinforcements phase, so you would have 4 blips on you first turn.

twistinthunder
03-09-2009, 17:26
@reeper: yes you are completely right. white dwarf #357 (uk) shows this.

@andrewgpaul if a door closes you shot the door this explained in the rules.

@iamnothere how is it annoying i mean thats one less door you have to spend 1 ap opening.

@sleby why you need to turn i dont know you auto turn if you win the fight so there no point.

@shadow hunter yes you are reading that right its because the genestealer has done something and think of overwatch as making a marine REALLY twitchy.

@boxjuggler you may puposely lurk but only 3 blips at a time. you cant move onto the board if there is a terminator within 6 squares until your next turn. no if the blip is on a purple arrow already it CANNOT move onto the board.

@rev genestealers get free turning anyway

a marine may do any action during the genestealer player turn.

and remember folks you can ALWAYS move diagonally

Bookwrak
03-09-2009, 17:40
@sleby why you need to turn i dont know you auto turn if you win the fight so there no point.
Because you kill the stealer if you're already facing him and win the fight.

AndrewGPaul
03-09-2009, 18:35
yes a marine must have line of sight to a stealer performing an action to react to it, this was explained better in 1st edition.


Command points can only be spent in the Genestealer turn if a Space Marine model las line of sight to a Genestealer that has completed an action ...
Each action witnessed allows a Space Marine to perform one action...

No mention that the Space Marine performing the action has to be the one who witnessed the Genestealer's action.


@andrewgpaul if a door closes you shot the door this explained in the rules.

Where in the rules?
he must take one shoot action each time a Genestealer performs an action within his line of sight and within a range of 12 squares. The overwatch fire is resolved after the Genestealer has performed its action, so if this action takes the Genestealer out of the Space Marine's range or line of sight then there is no shooting.

IAMNOTHERE
03-09-2009, 18:50
@iamnothere how is it annoying i mean thats one less door you have to spend 1 ap opening.

It's annoying because you could jam. Then a closer stealer could jump you.
How about 6 APs spent opening and closeing the door to try and get you to jam?

twistinthunder
03-09-2009, 19:08
@andrewgpaul: the bit in either the weaponry , the shooting or the overwatch section under the title SHOOTING AT A DOOR. at the END (yes END) of that paragraph it clearly states:

"if a door closes and a space marine on overwatch sees it close he shoots at it."

read through your entire rulebook before trying to tell me im wrong next time.

twistinthunder
03-09-2009, 19:09
It's annoying because you could jam. Then a closer stealer could jump you.
How about 6 APs spent opening and closeing the door to try and get you to jam?

leave spare command points and you can unjam and shoot at it next time it moves.

AndrewGPaul
03-09-2009, 19:32
@andrewgpaul: the bit in either the weaponry , the shooting or the overwatch section under the title SHOOTING AT A DOOR. at the END (yes END) of that paragraph it clearly states:

"if a door closes and a space marine on overwatch sees it close he shoots at it."

read through your entire rulebook before trying to tell me im wrong next time.

:wtf: Please point out where in my post I said you were wrong. For those following along at home, it's on page 19, under the rules for storm bolters.

Interestingly enough, there is no similar section in the rules for Assault cannon; I assume they can still shoot doors, since page 11 states "Space Marines are armed with storm bolters and powerful heavy weapons. They may fire these at Genestealer models and closed doors."

mattjgilbert
03-09-2009, 19:39
It's annoying because you could jam. Then a closer stealer could jump you.
How about 6 APs spent opening and closeing the door to try and get you to jam?LOL, I tried that exact thing last night! Didn't work though...the door got blown up instead...doh.

IAMNOTHERE
03-09-2009, 20:16
Sometime it's going to work, just you keep trying it :)

Yes you can leave a spare command point lying around just incase you jam; but that's down to the stealer player making you spend CPs when you don't want to.

Don't forget that you can't spend that command point until that marine sees a stealer perform an action in his LOS. Not a door, a stealer. So the stealer moves into your LOS, you spend a CP to unjam, the stealer is a square closer without being shot at already.

AndrewGPaul
03-09-2009, 20:54
Don't forget that you can't spend that command point until that marine sees a stealer perform an action in his LOS.


That's not the case, as far as I can see; you can only spend CPs when a Marine sees a 'stealer activate, but the CPs can be spent on any Marine.

JohnPublic
03-09-2009, 21:19
That's not the case, as far as I can see; you can only spend CPs when a Marine sees a 'stealer activate, but the CPs can be spent on any Marine.

This is ambiguous at best. I certainly took upon my initial examination it to mean that the marine that you wanted to activate had to have line of sight. I smell a raivraw.

AndrewGPaul
03-09-2009, 23:35
IMO it's both. That's how it was done in 1st edition, so it seems fine to me to allow it here.

CPs represent instructions from the company captain, reviewing data from all Marines and other sensors in the area -if he sees 'stealer activity on one Marine's data feed, he can instruct another Marine accordingly.

iluvatar18
03-09-2009, 23:55
Hey just a quick question that is probably answered in the rulebook, but we can't find it.

Can you fire a storm bolter past an ally or enemy? Say you'd rather shoot the genestealer behind the broodlord? Can you shoot if your LC termi is in front of your storm bolter dude?

Can the assault cannon shoot past a friend?

Heavy Flamer? (I doubt it)

Patriarch
03-09-2009, 23:55
Starting blips answer:

Yes, you can use your starting blips in the first turn, in addition to your turns reinforcements.
e.g. the mission states "Stealers start with 3 blips and receive 2 reinforcement blips per turn".

Game set up: Marine player sets up marines at Marine entry point.
Stealer places 3 blips at stealer entry areas.
Game starts with marine player's turn: marine player moves all his models until timer ends.
Stealer player's turn: he places two additional blips. He now has a total of 5 blips to covert/move onto the board this turn.
Next turn, stealer player gets two more blips for a total of 7, etc, etc.

Hey just a quick question that is probably answered in the rulebook, but we can't find it.
Can you fire a storm bolter past an ally or enemy? Say you'd rather shoot the genestealer behind the broodlord? Can you shoot if your LC termi is in front of your storm bolter dude?
Can the assault cannon shoot past a friend?
Heavy Flamer? (I doubt it)
No, because models (friend or foe) block LOS.


Overwatch in stealer turn - possible for three reasons:
1) A stealer is in position to attack marines in either of two different directions, but there are only enough CPs to put one marine on overwatch
2)You ran out of time to put a marine on overwatch
3)You forgot to put a marine on overwatch

Khaunshar
04-09-2009, 02:20
Rules Question regarding the free 90 degree turn for a stealer while moving:

Lets assume I have a stealer running down a corridor, and want to turn him around and run the other way as efficiently as possible. Lets say the hallway goes North-South, my Stealer is facing North. Is the following possible?

Somewhere along the way, I have to turn around, but I dont want to spend any APs for turning, so I simply announce a SIDEWAYS move first. I then use my free turn to turn 90 degrees, now facing the wall, then take my Sideways move. Next Action, I announce either a sideway move, moving then turning to face South, or I just announce a normal move, turning the moving.
The thing is, nowhere in the rules does it say that when you make a sideways move, at the time when you announce that action you actually have to be capable of doing it. The only way you CAN do it is because you get a free turn that you may use before.

Now with this said, whats the point of having a 180 degree turn for a stealer? Aside from being pinned between 2 Space Marines and for some reason wanting to turn around and attack the other, I dont see a situation where I cant get my 180 degree turn by abusing sideway moves.

EDIT: Remember, doing anything while being in Overwatch (via CPs) that isnt unjamming your weapon removes Overwatch. Is it the same for the melee version though, or can a Space Marine in combat readiness (not sure how its called in the english version) use CPs to shoot at incoming stealers before using his advantage in melee?
Also, after a round of melee, can I answer with a melee-range shooting via CPs to the attack?

Sleby
04-09-2009, 02:31
@Khaunshar. Yeah I would say that you can do that even if it does sound a little silly :p

Has the C.A.T confused anyone else? We were playing rescue last night and the C.A.T rules says that when it isn't being held by a marine it is randomly controlled by one team. The thing is, it says it can't move into an occupied or flamed square but genestealers are allowed to move through it during their moves.

Seems kinda weird to me because a stealer player can effectively trap the C.A.T in a corridor or in the corner of a room. Is this how you guys play it?

twistinthunder
04-09-2009, 06:50
you cant move sideways so no.
you can move diagonally though

twistinthunder
04-09-2009, 07:15
@Khaunshar. Yeah I would say that you can do that even if it does sound a little silly :p

Has the C.A.T confused anyone else? We were playing rescue last night and the C.A.T rules says that when it isn't being held by a marine it is randomly controlled by one team. The thing is, it says it can't move into an occupied or flamed square but genestealers are allowed to move through it during their moves.

Seems kinda weird to me because a stealer player can effectively trap the C.A.T in a corridor or in the corner of a room. Is this how you guys play it?

yeah but you just tell who you playing against they cant do that because its unfair.

also its unlikely that theyd completely surround it

AndrewGPaul
04-09-2009, 07:18
you cant move sideways so no.
you can move diagonally though


'stealers can.

Patriarch
04-09-2009, 09:35
yeah but you just tell who you playing against they cant do that because its unfair.

also its unlikely that theyd completely surround it

I don't think it's unfair, its a legitimate tactic.

The stealers are aware that this thing is somehow important to the marines, and will therefore group around it to intercept them.
Not too big a disadvantage because there will always be stealers between the marines and the CAT, and at least the marines will know how long they will take to reach it. Otherwise sod's law says the CAT will start wandering off as soon as the marines are round the corner.

x_ReepeR_x
04-09-2009, 09:51
That's not the case, as far as I can see; you can only spend CPs when a Marine sees a 'stealer activate, but the CPs can be spent on any Marine.

The CPs can only be spent on the marine that witnessed the action.

this is the paragraph from 1st ed book

you can spend CPs on a Marine only after a Stealer in
his LOS has performed an action.If the Stealerís action takes it out of
your Marineís LOS (it closes a door in the Marineís face or steps
around a corner), you canít spend CPs on that Marine.

this is the paragraph from 3rd ed

command points can only be spent in the genestealer turn if a space marine model has line of sight to a genestealer that has completed an action. Each action witnessed allows a space marine to perform one action.

they are worded differently but boath interpret to the same thing.
this is not just my oppinion i also contacted GW for clarification.

waaghsplat
04-09-2009, 10:02
Quick question about the parry rule: you can make the 'stealer reroll their highest D6 when in combat, but what happens with the results? Does the stealer have to use the result of that rerolled dice, or can they switch to using one of the other two die if it's a bad rule?

twistinthunder
04-09-2009, 10:17
@waaghsplat: i will use an example to explain:

genestealer player rolls 6,4,1 in close combat. the player controlling lorenzo scores a 3 which is made a 4 because hes a sergeant he makes the genestealer player re-roll the 6. upon re-rolling the 6 changes to a 3. combat is drawn because the highest scores are now 4 for each player.

Patriarch
04-09-2009, 18:46
The stealer always uses his highest die roll after any re-rolls have taken place. So yes, they can swap about.

The marine player is stuck with the reroll though - e.g. the stealer's highest roll is a 5, which ties with the marine player. The marine takes a risk and parries...if the stealer rerolls and gets a 6, the marine is dead.

rev
04-09-2009, 20:37
ok here's one I couldnt find -

How many dice are thrown by each party if a marine manages to close assault a stealer from behind.

I.e. the stealer has his back to the marine attacking him.

Is it still stealer 3 dice, marine 1?

Rev

Dezartfox
04-09-2009, 20:44
ok here's one I couldnt find -

How many dice are thrown by each party if a marine manages to close assault a stealer from behind.

I.e. the stealer has his back to the marine attacking him.

Is it still stealer 3 dice, marine 1?

Rev

Yeah, but the stealer can't win combat? Or is that just terminators? Genestealers are more agile.. *shrug*

Patriarch
04-09-2009, 22:11
ok here's one I couldnt find -
How many dice are thrown by each party if a marine manages to close assault a stealer from behind.
I.e. the stealer has his back to the marine attacking him.
Is it still stealer 3 dice, marine 1?
Rev
Yes, 3 vs 1; if the stealer survives it can turn to face.

Stealers losing a die from being attacked from the side is from 1st ed.

destroyerlord
05-09-2009, 06:28
The change in wording for the CPs implies to me that any marine may make an action. The new wording specifically states a marine, not the marine. That along with the piece of fluff about the marines being able to read each other's tactical data and see from the other marines point of view.
Why change the wording if you aren't changing the rule? Using a ru;ling from an earlier edition is rather dangerous considering it is an earlier edition, not the current ruleset (which is what we are discussing).

mattjgilbert
05-09-2009, 09:12
You can only win a combat if you are fighting to your front. If you win a combat to the side or rear you effectvely draw it but can then turn to face your attacker should you wish to.

I'll start putting together a Warseer FAQ for SH later on based on what turns up in this thread :) We can break of any tricky issues (not that I expect any) into their own threads for resolution.

AndrewGPaul
05-09-2009, 09:32
The change in wording for the CPs implies to me that any marine may make an action. The new wording specifically states a marine, not the marine. That along with the piece of fluff about the marines being able to read each other's tactical data and see from the other marines point of view.
Why change the wording if you aren't changing the rule? Using a ru;ling from an earlier edition is rather dangerous considering it is an earlier edition, not the current ruleset (which is what we are discussing).

Plus, consider the other slight rule changes, such as getting overwatch shots against doors.

(although, I'd be wary of reading too much into the precise wording - by the letter of the rules, storm bolters shoot closing doors on overwatch, while the assault cannon do not. In fact, it's not clear whether the assault cannon can shoot at doors under any circumstances. :))

LostTemplar
05-09-2009, 10:20
I do not understand how the heavy flamer works. Does it flame an entire section (ie, a building block of the hulk)?

IAMNOTHERE
05-09-2009, 10:44
Yes, that's exactly how it works. So try and flame big sections if your a marine. If you're the stealer player though you should have your firt guy on a section by himself to reduce casualties.

mattjgilbert
05-09-2009, 11:37
Yep. So if you flame a room, you affect a lot more squares than if you flame a corridor section. All the squares in the section are "hit" though (unless there is a closed door to block the flames).

fiore hellheart
05-09-2009, 21:20
How does the parry rule work?

Sleby
05-09-2009, 21:22
How does the parry rule work?

It allows you to force the genestealer player to reroll his highest dice roll.

rev
05-09-2009, 21:30
Yes, 3 vs 1; if the stealer survives it can turn to face.



So still not a good idea :)

You're unlikely to win 2 rounds in a row...

fiore hellheart
05-09-2009, 22:41
It allows you to force the genestealer player to reroll his highest dice roll.

Thanks i had it confused with the one that reduce the stealers number of dice by one. But that must be block if that is parry.

Lothar Hex
06-09-2009, 06:01
Sorry for this basic question but what exactly is the flamer's area of effect in a corridor section? Does it sweep up through the entire corridor, or just the actual piece section it hits?

Also, if I fire the flamer at the centre square of a t-junction and there are two blips unrevealed at either side, will it effect the blips? Will they be revealed and swept with fire? It seems logical that it would.

Lothar Hex
06-09-2009, 06:04
Sorry again, stupid me. I just looked above and saw the answer. Still, what exactly is a section. Is it just one piece, even the 2 square part for example? Seems a bit ridiculous. that it would not cause more widespread damage.

Zingbaby
06-09-2009, 06:15
This is a LOS question.

In the 'Corners' section - it says he can see "round a corner if he is standing next to it". To me that implies that he can see round the corner and down the corridor, as long as he is next to it. In the image it shows the genestealer (g) in the very closest square [see 1).] ...but what about [2).] ?

1):
--[,,,,,]----
--[,,,,,]----
--[,,g,,]----
'''' .,,,,. ''''!''''
,t .,,,,.
'''' .,,,,. ''''!''''
--[,,,,,]----
--[,,,,,]----


2):
--[,,,,,]----
--[,,g,,]----
--[,,,,,]----
'''' .,,,,. ''''!''''
,t .,,,,.
'''' .,,,,. ''''!''''
--[,,,,,]----
--[,,,,,]----

Based on the writen rule I'd have to say - YES he can see the genestealer - because he is at the corner and can see round it.

Further in the 'Rooms' section it shows how a Termie at the corner/entrance can see everything in the room.

What do you guys think?

IAMNOTHERE
06-09-2009, 06:28
Check the LOS diagram, the one showing a 90 degree cone of vision. Then transpose it onto your diagram. If I'm reading it right then no he can't see the stealer in 2.

Hellebore
06-09-2009, 06:30
I would assume that seeing round corners is still subject to the LoS rules.

I've always read it as may see the square diagonally around the corner.

Otherwise you can use the same argument to allow them to see round other models in the same position.

Hellebore

twistinthunder
06-09-2009, 07:52
the terminator does not see the stealer in no.2 however if he turn to face the direction the that corridor he can

k2boarder21
06-09-2009, 08:21
how does the jamming in overwatch work? do you spend command points only to clear the jam or are you considered jammed the rest of that overwatch turn if youre out of cp?

the rules say that the player spends ap to clear the jam, but i was under the impression that ap wasnt used during the stealer turn.

Narius Phinshredder
06-09-2009, 09:47
I just want to clarify the wording a bit about Flamers range, It mentions targeting a section. Is a section literally 1 piece of the board or does it mean a whole section of corridor (Up to 12 squares)? Also, if you target a section that has a Marine in it, what happens to him, is he protected by his armor or do you have to roll a 1 for him to live??

xSuperioRx
06-09-2009, 10:07
how does the jamming in overwatch work? do you spend command points only to clear the jam or are you considered jammed the rest of that overwatch turn if youre out of cp?

the rules say that the player spends ap to clear the jam, but i was under the impression that ap wasnt used during the stealer turn.

You can use 1 CP to clear a jammed storm bolter, and once unjammed you can continue to fire on the stealers.

So if you dont have spare CPs you will stay jammed for the rest of the stealer turn, but you get automatically unjammed when the marine turn begins. (If you survive being jammed for that long time that is ;) )

It says you use an ap to clear the jam, as you use as many CPs as you would APs. But your right, you dont use APs during the stealer turn.



I just want to clarify the wording a bit about Flamers range, It mentions targeting a section. Is a section literally 1 piece of the board or does it mean a whole section of corridor (Up to 12 squares)? Also, if you target a section that has a Marine in it, what happens to him, is he protected by his armor or do you have to roll a 1 for him to live??

Its 1 piece of the board.

If theres a Marine in it you'll treat him in the same way as a genestealer, so you'll need a 1 for him to survive.

Lothar Hex
06-09-2009, 15:17
FLAMERS.

A number of people, including myself, have asked questions about how the flamer works. Could someone please clarify how the damn things works in terms of area of effect in corridors (does it just effect that exact piece of corridor, no matter how small?), the range of it and how that works and does it effect a marine on that section?

mattjgilbert
06-09-2009, 15:19
OK, here's v0.1 of a Q&A document based on the questions we have had so far (I avoided a couple of what I thought were too obvious). Let me know what you think.

mattjgilbert
06-09-2009, 15:22
Oops... I missed the question around doors in flamed sections and what happens if they are destroyed. What are people's thoughts on this? The options I see are:

1. You cannot destroy a door (just like you cannot open them).
2. The flames flood the rest of the section and you roll for any models now affected (like in 1st ed rules).

If we can come to a consensus, I'll add it to the next version of the document.

IAMNOTHERE
06-09-2009, 15:25
Looks like a solid start to me. It seems most people are wrestling with the basics before moving onto things like psy powers etc.

Hellebore
06-09-2009, 15:42
Does it say anywhere what happens to blips that are flamed?

Scenario from a game tonight. Two blips hiding in the corners of a room to either side of a door. Flamer fired down the corridor into the room. Can't see blips so not revealed.

Do you roll for each blip individually to kill it, or for the number of stealers on the blip, or are the immune, or are they autokilled or what?

A very rare happenstance but still an important rule to er rule on.

Hellebore

jullevi
06-09-2009, 15:54
Does it say anywhere what happens to blips that are flamed?

They are destroyed on a roll of 2+, as described on page 21 under "Area Effect" paragraph.

jullevi
06-09-2009, 16:09
You can use 1 CP to clear a jammed storm bolter, and once unjammed you can continue to fire on the stealers.

So if you dont have spare CPs you will stay jammed for the rest of the stealer turn, but you get automatically unjammed when the marine turn begins. (If you survive being jammed for that long time that is ;) )

It says you use an ap to clear the jam, as you use as many CPs as you would APs. But your right, you dont use APs during the stealer turn.


Can he remove the jam immediately after he has jammed the bolter (by using CP) or does overwatch shot count as the reaction to witnessed 'stealer action? Does the marine have to wait for genestealer to move again to be able to un-jam the bolter, thus giving 'stealer one safe movement action?

ie.

1. move-shoot : move-unjam : move-shoot
or
2. move-shoot-unjam : move-shoot: move-shoot

?

mattjgilbert
06-09-2009, 16:33
re blips/flamers: As jullevi says, blips are removed on a 2+. All models are too (including marines should the circumstance arise).
re: jam/reaction - good question although I'd guess RAI is that the shot you took on overwatch was your reaction. You'd therefore have to wait until the stealer performed another action before you could react by unjamming.

fiore hellheart
06-09-2009, 16:39
Righto. Flamethrowers. Flamethrowers can shoot any section with a square within 12 squares and in line of soght of the flamer. The section is the whole tile and every model is affected apart from those blocked by doors. Doors can not be destroyed by flamers. Any model inside a flamed section will die on a 2+, regerdless of los, This is indifferent to stealers, termis or blips but excludes the broodlord who can not be harmed by the flamer. The flamethrower is persistent so the template remains until the end of the stealers turn and any model that moves inside, out of or into a flamed section will die on a 2+.

Example
http://www.warseer.com/gallery/data/500/Flamer_Examples.jpg
Example A:
Presume only marine a or b is present at one time.

Marine A would not be able to shoot the section ith the stealers in, in this instance as although he has line of sight, the arrow shows he is out of range. He could however move forward two and be able to shoot as he would then be within 12 squares.

Marine B on the other hand is within 12 squares of the cross section so shoots it. He then places the template on the section and all models within that section are hit. That is the blip, stealer D and stealer E. Stealer F is not hit as he is in another different section. The marine player rolls his dice and kills stealer D, even though it is out of line of sight. He also kills the blip, the blip is then removed, So even if it had 3 stealers they are all killed with one single roll. As E survived, next turn it would have to survive a 2+ roll for each action it does within the section. If it stays there I think it also rolls a 2+ death.

Example B:
Here marine c shoots the section witha door and stealers G+H in. Stealer G is killed on a 2+ but stealer H is not hurt as he is behind the door which is not hurt by the flamethrower, and blocks stealer H.


I hope that cleared everything up involving the flamethrower.:)

xSuperioRx
06-09-2009, 17:08
re: jam/reaction - good question although I'd guess RAI is that the shot you took on overwatch was your reaction. You'd therefore have to wait until the stealer performed another action before you could react by unjamming.

Yes thats how we've played it.

Fluffy : "As it takes awhile to unjam the weapon, and the 'stealers moves so fast"

Also from what I've read, thats the RAW.


Edit:

Can a blip that is behind a door that is in LOS of a marine open the door so that the blip goes through a involuntary conversion?

Pg 17 , Under Involuntary Conversion :


Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's LOS, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip.

If they can, how many APs would the revealed genestealers have?

Lothar Hex
06-09-2009, 17:08
It clears up alot but still I would like to clarify that no matter how small the tile section, it is only that section that is effected, even of just the two square section?

xSuperioRx
06-09-2009, 17:16
It clears up alot but still I would like to clarify that no matter how small the tile section, it is only that section that is effected, even of just the two square section?


Even if its only a 1 square part, yes :)

Lothar Hex
06-09-2009, 17:20
Ignore last post.

I just read mattjgilbert's Q and A's and it confirms that it affects the area no matter how small. Thanks Matt.

However, the Q&A's have me confused on one issue, Jams on overwatch. I dont undertsand the issue of CPs and clearing jams. This was dealt with above. For clarification, you may shoot at a nid every time he makes an action in LOS. If you jam, you can clear the jam as a further responsive action and then shoot again as normal in response to nid actions in LOS. What have CPs got to do with that?

xSuperioRx
06-09-2009, 17:30
What have CPs got to do with that?


It costs 1 AP to clear a jam, but as you're in the 'stealers turn, you have to use CP's to clear it. This means that it costs 1 CP to clear a jam.

Lothar Hex
06-09-2009, 17:31
PG 13- "When in Overwatch, a Space Marine armed with a Storm Bolter or Assault Cannon can perform shoot actions in the Genestealer turn without expending any action points"


PG 19- "it costs one AP to clear a jam"

This is interesting as it seems to suggest that only shoot actions are responsively free in the Genestealers turn, not the clearing Jam action. This would indeed mean that CPs are needed to preform this extra action.

Sorry to have this dialogue with myself but could someone please put the nail in this.

Lothar Hex
06-09-2009, 17:32
Sorry xSuperioRx,

I didnt see your quick response. I type like a 90 year old. Cheers mate.

mattjgilbert
06-09-2009, 18:19
Can a blip that is behind a door that is in LOS of a marine open the door so that the blip goes through a involuntary conversion?No. The end of the action would result in the blip having "moved" into a marines LOS and that is not permitted. This has always been the case (the 1st ed wording may have been clearer on this, I'd have to check it).

A new one...

Q: Can a marine perform a move/fire or turn/fire action on a blip? e.g. the marine turns and fires as an action, as he turns he gets LOS to a blip which converts.

Proposed answer: Yes. Blips are automatically and immediatly revealed once a marine has LOS to them [see page 17]. The marine player declares his intention to shoot the blip before the turn. The free shooting action must be performed against the stealer occupying the square where the blip was positioned or, if LOS to that model is blocked, the first available model in LOS which was placed as a result of the blip being converted.


What do you think?

twistinthunder
06-09-2009, 18:53
how does the jamming in overwatch work? do you spend command points only to clear the jam or are you considered jammed the rest of that overwatch turn if youre out of cp?

the rules say that the player spends ap to clear the jam, but i was under the impression that ap wasnt used during the stealer turn.

if you have remaining AP then yes you can.

reasoning: at no point does it say that you CAN'T use AP in the stealer turn. it says you can use command points instead.

as proved here:
PG 13- "When in Overwatch, a Space Marine armed with a Storm Bolter or Assault Cannon CAN perform shoot actions in the Genestealer turn without expending any action points"

Sleby
06-09-2009, 19:05
No. The end of the action would result in the blip having "moved" into a marines LOS and that is not permitted. This has always been the case (the 1st ed wording may have been clearer on this, I'd have to check it).

A new one...

Q: Can a marine perform a move/fire or turn/fire action on a blip? e.g. the marine turns and fires as an action, as he turns he gets LOS to a blip which converts.

Proposed answer: Yes. Blips are automatically and immediatly revealed once a marine has LOS to them [see page 17]. The marine player declares his intention to shoot the blip before the turn. The free shooting action must be performed against the stealer occupying the square where the blip was positioned or, if LOS to that model is blocked, the first available model in LOS which was placed as a result of the blip being converted.


What do you think?

That's how my friend and I have been playing it.

I have a couple of questions though. If you have two marines in a line and a genestealer kills the first one but the second one is on overwatch and in los to the combat. Does he get a free shot at the genestealer after it has killed the first marine?

We have been playing that you can because the rules say you get a free shoot action if you have LOS to a stealer that has just completed an action.

Second one: If a marine on overwatch shoots at a stealer are you also able to spend CP's on another marine? It says you can spend CP's during the stealers turn if a marine has LOS to a stealer that has completed an action. I was just wondering if the overwatch shot counted as this action even though it's free.

Cheers

twistinthunder
06-09-2009, 19:19
1)no you dont have LOS as it attacks the marine (assuming you mean 1 behind the other)

assuming you mean they're swhoulder to shoulder then yes because you have LOS diagonally.

2) yes it doesnt say you only get get a certain amount of CP's so you can use as many as you like as long as you dont go over the amount you actually have.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
06-09-2009, 20:06
With the flamer it's everything in the section is hit. So if you fire it at a 3 square room you get a lot but if you fire it at a 2 square corridor you get a little.

Yeah, I didn't understand this rule (thought it was just the template size) and had three 3 Stealer blips and a stealer in a 5 square corridor. They were all roasted with a flamer shot... :(

GrogsnotPowwabomba
06-09-2009, 20:24
re: jam/reaction - good question although I'd guess RAI is that the shot you took on overwatch was your reaction. You'd therefore have to wait until the stealer performed another action before you could react by unjamming.

This is how I interpret it as well, but I'd like to hear more opinions. I think if you do not play it this way (and allow the Marine player to instantly unjam) it makes Overwatch a tad too powerful, especially if the Marine player has alot of extra CP to expend.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
06-09-2009, 20:32
No. The end of the action would result in the blip having "moved" into a marines LOS and that is not permitted. This has always been the case (the 1st ed wording may have been clearer on this, I'd have to check it).

A new one...

Q: Can a marine perform a move/fire or turn/fire action on a blip? e.g. the marine turns and fires as an action, as he turns he gets LOS to a blip which converts.

Proposed answer: Yes. Blips are automatically and immediatly revealed once a marine has LOS to them [see page 17]. The marine player declares his intention to shoot the blip before the turn. The free shooting action must be performed against the stealer occupying the square where the blip was positioned or, if LOS to that model is blocked, the first available model in LOS which was placed as a result of the blip being converted.


What do you think?

Makes complete sense to me. He'll definately have a legitimate target since Genestealers are "automatically and immediately revealed" at the time he draws LOS, I think it makes completely sense. And honestly, I can't see how this would not be the intention of the designers.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
06-09-2009, 20:37
No. The end of the action would result in the blip having "moved" into a marines LOS and that is not permitted. This has always been the case (the 1st ed wording may have been clearer on this, I'd have to check it).

I don't agree here. Reread the second paragraph in the "Involuntary Conversion" section.

It says "...a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's LOS; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's LOS, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip. This would be involuntary conversion."

To the original question, though, if the Blip opened the door the revealed Genestealers would not have any AP because the blip had already performed an action (opening the door) before they were revealed. But if another model opened the door for the Blip, the revealed Genestealers would be free to act with all 6 AP.

Bottom Line: A revealed Genestealer will either have 0 AP or 6 AP to use. There is no in between as far as I can tell.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
06-09-2009, 21:00
I have a question about diagonal moves and corners. The rules state:

"A model cannot move diagonally if this means it would pass between two squares containing a wall or a model."

I understand the example given just below this text, but I don't understand how it applies in other situations. Does this mean that you cannot make diagonal movements around corners?

For example, if a Genestealer was positioned at a corridor corner (one square wide) with the following layout (^=genestealer's position and facing, x=one map square), what is the quickest way for him to turn the corner?

A B
^
x

Could he just spend 1 AP to move diagonally up/right to square B and then use his free 90 degree turn to face right? Or would he have to spend 1 AP to move up to square A (turn right for free), and then a second AP to move to square B?

The corner rules were the only thing my friend and I could not figure out last night. Any help would be appreciated.

AndrewGPaul
06-09-2009, 23:18
It means you can only make a diagonal move if it is also possible to make the same move by moving forward then sideways.

In your example, the 'stealer could move from ^ directly to B, as it is not moving between two occupied squares (A is free). if there were another 'stelaer in square A, the one at ^ could not move, since the diagonal is blocked.

Sleby
06-09-2009, 23:52
1)no you dont have LOS as it attacks the marine (assuming you mean 1 behind the other)

assuming you mean they're swhoulder to shoulder then yes because you have LOS diagonally.

I mean like this


(G)(M)<<<<<<<<<(M)

The 2nd marine is on overwatch. The genestealer kills the first marine. Can the 2nd marine now take a shot at the genestealer as it has completed a close combat action which resulted in the first marine dying and LOS being granted to the 2nd marine.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
07-09-2009, 01:17
It means you can only make a diagonal move if it is also possible to make the same move by moving forward then sideways.

In your example, the 'stealer could move from ^ directly to B, as it is not moving between two occupied squares (A is free). if there were another 'stelaer in square A, the one at ^ could not move, since the diagonal is blocked.

Excellent, this is what I thought, and your first sentence is the perfect way to explain it (I wish the rulebook did as much).

Thanks!

slayerofmen
07-09-2009, 08:39
i have to say having played three games in one night, i'm thinking GW may have to FAQ the rule book as somethings just aren't that clear....it all.

example: the rule book makes reference to the marine player loosing the game if they go over their allotted CP's for that turn, but how is this possible if the marine player gets to see the number before placing it face down?

also can overwatch be set in the stealers turn? if so does it have to be done in reaction to a stealer move? after having read the answer in the FAQ my question is now changed to. what the hell is the point in not just setting overwatch in the stealer turn with CP
s as opposed to wasting them with "normal" shooting?

shadow hunter
07-09-2009, 09:15
I've now played missions 1 and 2 (on my own) trying to learn the game. I've just got a couple of queries that I am unsure about. (if you're interested, the marines lost both missions)

1a) If a blip opens a door in a corridoor within LOS of a marine, do the genestealer(s) still have ap's to use?

1b) Also, where would I place 3 genestealers in the above situation? On on the square the blip was on, one behind, and one in front (past the door they opened)?

2) Can you attack diagonally in hth?

3) If a marine survives a combat(s) can he, in his turn, shoot his assailants? Or are they locked in hth?

4) Do I get the benefits of block from an assault from behind (and parry)


Some of these might be explained clearly, but playing on my own, I am probably missing the parts in the rules. I am trying to get the game clear in my head ready for going to Nottingham HQ on saturday to have a few games with my mates.

Hellebore
07-09-2009, 09:33
i have to say having played three games in one night, i'm thinking GW may have to FAQ the rule book as somethings just aren't that clear....it all.

example: the rule book makes reference to the marine player loosing the game if they go over their allotted CP's for that turn, but how is this possible if the marine player gets to see the number before placing it face down?

also can overwatch be set in the stealers turn? if so does it have to be done in reaction to a stealer move? after having read the answer in the FAQ my question is now changed to. what the hell is the point in not just setting overwatch in the stealer turn with CP
s as opposed to wasting them with "normal" shooting?

You can't look at it again after picking it up. I've had my opponent freaking out being unable to remember the number because of all the other things they've been keeping track of. But then it's not supposed to be a dangerous rule, it's not there as a real threat to the game.

Well you can spend CP in your own turn too. There's really no reason to wait to the stealer turn to go on overwatch. If you go on overwatch in your own turn you get that one extra shot that you'd otherwise waste on going into overwatch in the first place.

Overwatch is good, but jams and being inactive take their toll. You can't stop in the middle of the game. You have to keep moving. Overwatch doesn't support a dynamic playstyle so you've really got to balance it against moving to the objective.

Hellebore

slayerofmen
07-09-2009, 09:54
another question is are the CP points cycled back into the pile after each turn or are they disgarded?

and can the assault cannon always jam or is it only after reloading?

as an addition: the ammo counter, is each firing a single ammo useage or is it per dice, ie: it fires with three so you would go from ten to seven

Sleby
07-09-2009, 10:18
I've now played missions 1 and 2 (on my own) trying to learn the game. I've just got a couple of queries that I am unsure about. (if you're interested, the marines lost both missions)

1a) If a blip opens a door in a corridoor within LOS of a marine, do the genestealer(s) still have ap's to use?

1b) Also, where would I place 3 genestealers in the above situation? On on the square the blip was on, one behind, and one in front (past the door they opened)?

2) Can you attack diagonally in hth?

3) If a marine survives a combat(s) can he, in his turn, shoot his assailants? Or are they locked in hth?

4) Do I get the benefits of block from an assault from behind (and parry)

1a. No, once a blip is revealed the only way the genestealers can be activated is if the blip hadn't been moved before they were revealed.

1b. Yes

2. No

3. Yes he can.

4. Block you don't. Parry I can't remember at the moment...but I know it says so under the rules for parry, just like it does for block ;)


another question is are the CP points cycled back into the pile after each turn or are they disgarded?

and can the assault cannon always jam or is it only after reloading?

as an addition: the ammo counter, is each firing a single ammo useage or is it per dice, ie: it fires with three so you would go from ten to seven

Unused CP's are discarded. The assault cannon can't jam, it can however blow up if you roll triples once it's been reloaded and the assault cannon ammo track goes down one slot per shot. It rolls 3 dice each time you fire it. Each dice is not a shot.

Pretty simple things to look up guys :p

shadow hunter
07-09-2009, 11:02
I know that if I look I'll find most of the answers, but I dont want to waste my time during the turn, and then forget to look it up afterwards. I then started reading this thread (while I am at work) and remembered the things I was gonna look up after the game.

Playing on my own at the moment also, I never had anyone to confer with. And when I meet my mates at GWHQ I wanted to be as sure with the rules as possible (as they are even further along the Alzheimer's than me ).

Thanks for clearing it all up.

Also, I had been checking the CP during the marines turn. Didn't know I couldn't look at it after selecting it. But as I am doing both marines and genestealers, I find it hard to remember what I had planned for each side.

One thing I was surprised about - the maps are bloomin big. I played mission 2 on the living room floor last night. I wasn't sure it would all fit on my table.

I think I might try mission 2 again and see if i can win this time.

Zenithfleet
07-09-2009, 11:08
Only played one game so far... two rules Q's:

1. Can the marine player target his own marines (or squares with marines in them)? My opponent's last-ditch tactic for Suicide Mission was to send a storm-bolter marine to open the door to the objective room and with his last remaining AP take one step inside (onto the entry square), then have the flamer burninate him from behind, thus winning the mission. Seemed fair to me, but a bit heartless...

2. On p14 of the rulebook it states that if a stealer makes an action within the fire arc of multiple marines on overwatch, all the marines must shoot. What happens if two marines are facing one another, both set to overwatch, and a stealer moves between them? The rulebook actually has a photo of this as an example, and it says that both marines must shoot (and hence risk a jam) even if the first one kills the stealer. But would this mean that the second marine's shots would then zoom past the stealer's corpse and hit the first marine? Or are they considered to fire simultaneously, so if both marines hit, their shots are assumed to have hit the stealer from both sides at the same moment?

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 11:48
after having read the answer in the FAQ my question is now changed to. what the hell is the point in not just setting overwatch in the stealer turn with CP
s as opposed to wasting them with "normal" shooting?

1) you only have 1 CP; setting overwatch takes 2CPs.

2) you wish to fire Brother Zael's flamer.

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 11:53
I mean like this


(G)(M)<<<<<<<<<(M)

The 2nd marine is on overwatch. The genestealer kills the first marine. Can the 2nd marine now take a shot at the genestealer as it has completed a close combat action which resulted in the first marine dying and LOS being granted to the 2nd marine.

Yes.


Only played one game so far... two rules Q's:

1. Can the marine player target his own marines (or squares with marines in them)? My opponent's last-ditch tactic for Suicide Mission was to send a storm-bolter marine to open the door to the objective room and with his last remaining AP take one step inside (onto the entry square), then have the flamer burninate him from behind, thus winning the mission. Seemed fair to me, but a bit heartless...

2. On p14 of the rulebook it states that if a stealer makes an action within the fire arc of multiple marines on overwatch, all the marines must shoot. What happens if two marines are facing one another, both set to overwatch, and a stealer moves between them? The rulebook actually has a photo of this as an example, and it says that both marines must shoot (and hence risk a jam) even if the first one kills the stealer. But would this mean that the second marine's shots would then zoom past the stealer's corpse and hit the first marine? Or are they considered to fire simultaneously, so if both marines hit, their shots are assumed to have hit the stealer from both sides at the same moment?


I've now played missions 1 and 2 (on my own) trying to learn the game. I've just got a couple of queries that I am unsure about. (if you're interested, the marines lost both missions)

1a) If a blip opens a door in a corridoor within LOS of a marine, do the genestealer(s) still have ap's to use?

This has already been answered in post #107 by GrogsnotPowwabomba.


1b) Also, where would I place 3 genestealers in the above situation? On on the square the blip was on, one behind, and one in front (past the door they opened)?

Yes, as those are the only three possible places to put the 'stealers, assuming they're in a corridor.


2) Can you attack diagonally in hth?

This is in the rulebook, complete with pretty diagram. No.


3) If a marine survives a combat(s) can he, in his turn, shoot his assailants? Or are they locked in hth?

The rulebook mentions nothing about being locked in combat. You're erroneously carrying over concepts from 40K. There is in fact, no such thing as "combat" to be locked in.


Only played one game so far... two rules Q's:

1. Can the marine player target his own marines (or squares with marines in them)? My opponent's last-ditch tactic for Suicide Mission was to send a storm-bolter marine to open the door to the objective room and with his last remaining AP take one step inside (onto the entry square), then have the flamer burninate him from behind, thus winning the mission. Seemed fair to me, but a bit heartless...

I don't think they can shoot one another with storm bolters or assault cannons, or attack each other in melee (although I'd need to check the rules to confirm). I think you can target sections containing Marines with the flamer, as it gives the die score needed to kill one. If that were prohibited, there'd be no need for that.


2. On p14 of the rulebook it states that if a stealer makes an action within the fire arc of multiple marines on overwatch, all the marines must shoot. What happens if two marines are facing one another, both set to overwatch, and a stealer moves between them? The rulebook actually has a photo of this as an example, and it says that both marines must shoot (and hence risk a jam) even if the first one kills the stealer. But would this mean that the second marine's shots would then zoom past the stealer's corpse and hit the first marine? Or are they considered to fire simultaneously, so if both marines hit, their shots are assumed to have hit the stealer from both sides at the same moment?

Both shoot. The rules make no mention of friendly fire from Storm Bolters.

nedius
07-09-2009, 11:57
I have a couple of questions though. If you have two marines in a line and a genestealer kills the first one but the second one is on overwatch and in los to the combat. Does he get a free shot at the genestealer after it has killed the first marine?

Cheers




I believe that you will get a shot. As the overwatch shots are taken after the action (hence genestealers moving out of LOS don't get shot at), the action of CC removing the interveaning model means you now get a shot, just as if a stealer opens a door - it would then be shot at. My other reason for this is that this very question was answered this way in an FAQ for the first edition, for which this edition strongly based it's rules.

Another question: will a marine attacked in CC lose overwatch? If not, will they get to fire at the stealer if they survive?

mattjgilbert
07-09-2009, 12:04
Pretty sure marines attacked on overwatch lose overwatch. Marines on guard do not lose guard though.
No rulebook to hand to confirm though (I'm at work :( ).

xSuperioRx
07-09-2009, 12:17
Pretty sure marines attacked on overwatch lose overwatch. Marines on guard do not lose guard though.
No rulebook to hand to confirm though (I'm at work :( ).

Correct,

Page 13, under Overwatch Actions, 3rd Paragraph:
"If a Space Marine is attacked in close assault or .... he immediately loses his overwatch status."

Patriarch
07-09-2009, 12:19
A clarification is that flamer templates do NOT act like they do in WH40k. The flamer blast is simply a marker to show the section has been hit. It doesn't matter if you can cover some models but not others.

I have a couple of questions though. If you have two marines in a line and a genestealer kills the first one but the second one is on overwatch and in los to the combat. Does he get a free shot at the genestealer after it has killed the first marine?
Yes - the marine gets an overwatch shot at the victorious stealer (the stealer has just completed an action which ended with the ctreature in the 2nd marines LOS.

Second one: If a marine on overwatch shoots at a stealer are you also able to spend CP's on another marine? It says you can spend CP's during the stealers turn if a marine has LOS to a stealer that has completed an action. I was just wondering if the overwatch shot counted as this action even though it's free.
No it doesn't count (you can have several OW shots at a stealer if several marines see it perform an action). For example, 2 marines OW shoot with storm bolters, and a flamer marine pays 2CPs to flame it.

I've now played missions 1 and 2 (on my own) trying to learn the game. I've just got a couple of queries that I am unsure about. (if you're interested, the marines lost both missions)


1a) If a blip opens a door in a corridoor within LOS of a marine, do the genestealer(s) still have ap's to use?
Blips can't open doors or deliberately reveal themselves into a marines LOS. You have to covert them first.

1b) Also, where would I place 3 genestealers in the above situation? On on the square the blip was on, one behind, and one in front (past the door they opened)?
N/A - can't happen (see above).

2) Can you attack diagonally in hth?
No.

3) If a marine survives a combat(s) can he, in his turn, shoot his assailants? Or are they locked in hth?
There is no "locked" in CC like WH40k. Feel free to pump bolter rounds point blank at stealers.

4) Do I get the benefits of block from an assault from behind (and parry)
No, in fact you are stuffed if you are attacked from behind as there are no benefits from who you are and what you carry - Sergeants and Librarians don't get the +1 or Psi Points, lightning claws don't get 2D6+1 etc. If you are facing a room of stealers without a gun, don't stop in the middle of the room!

OK, questions of my own:
In missions which say "a marine must do such-and-such" does this include the Librarian or Sergeant? In "Unknown Lifeforms" it specifically excludes them, but in the other missions it does not.

In Pitfall, can the Librarian use his powers on the lower level - does going down a ladder count as one square in this case?
Also, RAI should the mission read "If all 4 marines survive, the marines win. If no marines survive, the stealers win. Otherwise roll off as follows..." as at present the marines can lose despite saving all their models.

Ladders generally - can a marine "choose" to fall down a ladder rather than pay 2APs?


1. Can the marine player target his own marines (or squares with marines in them)? My opponent's last-ditch tactic for Suicide Mission was to send a storm-bolter marine to open the door to the objective room and with his last remaining AP take one step inside (onto the entry square), then have the flamer burninate him from behind, thus winning the mission. Seemed fair to me, but a bit heartless...
Very, very dodgy. It was specifically outlawed in previous editions, but the 3rd ed doesn't forbid it, so I'd say you can do it. You would be executed by the chapter though...

2. On p14 of the rulebook it states that if a stealer makes an action within the fire arc of multiple marines on overwatch, all the marines must shoot. What happens if two marines are facing one another, both set to overwatch, and a stealer moves between them? The rulebook actually has a photo of this as an example, and it says that both marines must shoot (and hence risk a jam) even if the first one kills the stealer. But would this mean that the second marine's shots would then zoom past the stealer's corpse and hit the first marine? Or are they considered to fire simultaneously, so if both marines hit, their shots are assumed to have hit the stealer from both sides at the same moment?
No effect - bullets don't travel further than the target in SH.

xerxeshavelock
07-09-2009, 12:36
Questions:

Objects - are they models, therefore destroyed by a Flamer shot (pg21 rulebook - roll a dice for each model or blip...)?

Objects - just to clarify, a Genestealer HAS TO pick up an object, although they can chose to drop it as soon as they move away?

Psychic powers - Prescience. Does the marine player have the choice to burn more than one PSI Point for more than one CP move? I read no, but the Force Axe allows something similar. How do you read it?

slayerofmen
07-09-2009, 12:49
im aware that any left over CP are wasted if you dont use them my question (slightly rephrased is)

the tile itself once drawn, is it put back into circulation, thus being able to be draw again. or after it is used is it then gone leaving them with the other five;

ie: 1,2,3,4,5,6... i draw the "6" tile use it that turn, does it go back in the pile or removed completely

shadow hunter
07-09-2009, 12:49
GrogsnotPowwabomba
I don't agree here. Reread the second paragraph in the "Involuntary Conversion" section.

It says "...a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's LOS; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's LOS, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip. This would be involuntary conversion."

To the original question, though, if the Blip opened the door the revealed Genestealers would not have any AP because the blip had already performed an action (opening the door) before they were revealed. But if another model opened the door for the Blip, the revealed Genestealers would be free to act with all 6 AP.

Bottom Line: A revealed Genestealer will either have 0 AP or 6 AP to use. There is no in between as far as I can tell.

AndrewGPaul
This has already been answered in post #107 by GrogsnotPowwabomba.


Patriarch
Originally Posted by shadow hunter I've now played missions 1 and 2 (on my own) trying to learn the game. I've just got a couple of queries that I am unsure about. (if you're interested, the marines lost both missions)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow hunter 1a) If a blip opens a door in a corridoor within LOS of a marine, do the genestealer(s) still have ap's to use?
Blips can't open doors or deliberately reveal themselves into a marines LOS. You have to covert them first.


The post AndrewGPaul refers to seems to sound like blips can open doors, but you say you cant. I'm at work so cant check my rule book. Which is right?

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 12:57
im aware that any left over CP are wasted if you dont use them my question (slightly rephrased is)

the tile itself once drawn, is it put back into circulation, thus being able to be draw again. or after it is used is it then gone leaving them with the other five;

ie: 1,2,3,4,5,6... i draw the "6" tile use it that turn, does it go back in the pile or removed completely

Back in the pile. Otherwise, how would you play a game lasting more than 6 turns? :)

As to shadow hunter's question about doors, this is my take on it (unsupported by the rules for now);

Ignore the following - it's incorrect:

blips may indeed open doors. However, they are not permitted to make an action that would reveal themselves to the Marines' LOS. Thus, they may not open a door with a Marine on the other side of it. you would need to convert the blip, then get one of the newly revealed 'stealers to do it.

nedius
07-09-2009, 13:01
blips can open doors, but only if this would not bring them into LOS. If opening a door would bring them into LOS, it must convert first, then a genestealer open the door.

the_picto
07-09-2009, 13:24
Blips cannot move into los of a terminator. Opening a door is not movement and so the blip can open a door and become visible. The blip is then immediately converted and the genestealers may do nothing else that turn, as they came from an already activated blip.

xSuperioRx
07-09-2009, 13:55
Blips cannot move into los of a terminator. Opening a door is not movement and so the blip can open a door and become visible. The blip is then immediately converted and the genestealers may do nothing else that turn, as they came from an already activated blip.

Yes this is how we've been playing it :)

Again, it says :


Remember that a blip cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight; however, the Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking a Space Marine's line of sight, allowing the Space Marine to see a blip.

Can someone find a place where it says you can't do it? As this seems to be a case of specific > general. I could be wrong however :)

Also, it might have change since 1st edition... so if the wording is different the rule might be as well.

shadow hunter
07-09-2009, 14:52
The quote of the rules above is why i was allowing blips to open doors revealing themselves to a marine. I haven't played other versions (which may have clearer rules) so was going by how I read the new version.

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 15:00
Yes this is how we've been playing it :)

Again, it says :



Can someone find a place where it says you can't do it? As this seems to be a case of specific > general. I could be wrong however :)

If that's a quote from the 3rd edition rulebook, then it looks like I was wrong.

twistinthunder
07-09-2009, 16:50
1) you only have 1 CP; setting overwatch takes 2CPs.

2) you wish to fire Brother Zael's flamer.


WRONG!

page 11 states:


each action witnessed allows a space marine to perform one action (THIS ACTION MAY BE AN ACTION THAT COSTS 2 ACTION/COMMAND POINTS).

Evilmop
07-09-2009, 16:55
An easy one for someone I guess...

Do I get the sustained fire bonus when shooting at doors?

If so, I think i have thesuicide mission cracked.

twistinthunder
07-09-2009, 16:55
back in the pile. Otherwise, how would you play a game lasting more than 6 turns? :)

as to shadow hunter's question about doors, this is my take on it (unsupported by the rules for now);

blips may indeed open doors. However, they are not permitted to make an action that would reveal themselves to the marines' los. Thus, they may not open a door with a marine on the other side of it. You would need to convert the blip, then get one of the newly revealed 'stealers to do it.


read page 17.

IAMNOTHERE
07-09-2009, 18:11
An easy one for someone I guess...

Do I get the sustained fire bonus when shooting at doors?

If so, I think i have thesuicide mission cracked.

Yes you do.

jullevi
07-09-2009, 18:34
A quickie: Can Assault Cannon shoot at doors? I had a quick look at the rulebook and didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

TheClosedFist
07-09-2009, 18:45
Re. Firing during Overwatch

If i have a Genestealer who is, for arguements sake, 4 squares away from a marine on overwatch and i want to move the stealer forward and attack - does the marine get to take shot at the stealer for every square he moves or is the whole move considered one Action and the attack a second action?

S

mattjgilbert
07-09-2009, 18:58
A quickie: Can Assault Cannon shoot at doors? I had a quick look at the rulebook and didn't see it mentioned anywhere.

Yes it can. It requires a 5+ as normal (or 4+ on sustained fire bonus) to destroy the door.


I don't agree here. Reread the second paragraph in the "Involuntary Conversion" section.
Oops you are right. I think that's a change :)


You can't look at it again after picking it up. Interesting. I've never interpreted it like that before. The counter is revelaed to the stelaer player in the mission status phase. I never considered that the marine player couldn't check his own command points whenever he wanted.



I just requested that once the Q&A is a bit more fleshed out, whether it can have its own sticky thread. That should make it a bit easier to find :)

I'll give it another day and then put a v0.2 together tomorrow evening after rounding up the latest questions.

nedius
07-09-2009, 19:49
Interesting. I've never interpreted it like that before. The counter is revelaed to the stelaer player in the mission status phase. I never considered that the marine player couldn't check his own command points whenever he wanted.



I believe that the rule is in place not to put extra pressure on the marine player, but to prevent him 'cheating' - by which I mean using more CPs than he actually drew. I've always played that the marine player can check the CPs.

I think this is to prevent situtions where a marine player forgets (accidentally or otherwise) that he only had 3CPs and uses 4. The whole stealer player turn is played before it turns out the marine player has over-used his CPs, a bit late to go back and take back one action as it could have had a significant impact on the stealer turn.

The rule is harsh, but I think it would only ever be an isue in competative play. In any normal game I'm sure a compromise of using one CP less the following turn, letting it pass as an accident (as long as it wasn't a regular accident!), or even replaying the turn would be the norm.

fiore hellheart
07-09-2009, 21:20
I believe that the rule is in place not to put extra pressure on the marine player, but to prevent him 'cheating' - by which I mean using more CPs than he actually drew. I've always played that the marine player can check the CPs.

I think this is to prevent situtions where a marine player forgets (accidentally or otherwise) that he only had 3CPs and uses 4. The whole stealer player turn is played before it turns out the marine player has over-used his CPs, a bit late to go back and take back one action as it could have had a significant impact on the stealer turn.

The rule is harsh, but I think it would only ever be an isue in competative play. In any normal game I'm sure a compromise of using one CP less the following turn, letting it pass as an accident (as long as it wasn't a regular accident!), or even replaying the turn would be the norm.

Well when using that rule in normal games instead of doing a stealer win simply deduct one from the next turns amount or if he was more than one over stop him from repicking next time he choses to even if it is the turn after that turn.

TheClosedFist
07-09-2009, 21:29
Re. Firing during Overwatch

If i have a Genestealer who is, for arguements sake, 4 squares away from a marine on overwatch and i want to move the stealer forward and attack - does the marine get to take shot at the stealer for every square he moves or is the whole move considered one Action and the attack a second action?

S

Nevermind! After rereading the rule book I've answered my own question!

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 22:06
WRONG!

page 11 states:

So? He asked for reasons why you might wish to spend CPs on a Shoot action, rather than setting overwatch. I provided two (different) reasons.

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 22:08
read page 17.

I couldn't; I was at work. :) Now that I'm not, I see I was wrong.

Patriarch
07-09-2009, 22:48
Can someone find a place where it says you can't do it? As this seems to be a case of specific > general. I could be wrong however :) Also, it might have change since 1st edition... so if the wording is different the rule might be as well.
A case of RAI v RAW here.
I read the the para on p17 as blip or genestealer can open a door to reveal another blip, which is then subject to involuntary conversion. Certainly the case with previous versions, the alternative is rather messy.
However the book isn't clear, so you could read it the other way. Definately needs a FAQ.

LostTemplar
07-09-2009, 23:42
When on overwatch, if the storm bolter jams, does the marine pay any additional cost to get back on overwatch? It seems he only spends a point to clear the bolter and then coems to overwatch automatically on the genestealer's turn.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
08-09-2009, 01:04
A case of RAI v RAW here.
I read the the para on p17 as blip or genestealer can open a door to reveal another blip, which is then subject to involuntary conversion. Certainly the case with previous versions, the alternative is rather messy.
However the book isn't clear, so you could read it the other way. Definately needs a FAQ.

Are you saying that in previous versions, Blips could not open doors that would grant LOS to a Terminator?

Trekari
08-09-2009, 01:04
Some of you need to read the RULES before responding to rules questions.

An Assault Cannon may NOT shoot at a door. Nowhere does it state this is possible to do, so it is not. A Storm Bolter may shoot at doors because it says so. Assault Cannons may not, because it does NOT say so.


A case of RAI v RAW here.
I read the the para on p17 as blip or genestealer can open a door to reveal another blip

You are applying a limitation which does not exist in the rules.

The Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking LOS to a blip. Nowhere do you have grounds for RAI other than previous editions of the rules, which are entirely irrelevant.

"Blips cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight." This is not saying the same thing as "Blips may not take actions which result in being in LOS to a Space Marine."

GrogsnotPowwabomba
08-09-2009, 03:26
Some of you need to read the RULES before responding to rules questions.

First of all, you need to relax. Many of us have read the rules numerous times and still have questions, which is the point of this thread.


An Assault Cannon may NOT shoot at a door. Nowhere does it state this is possible to do, so it is not. A Storm Bolter may shoot at doors because it says so. Assault Cannons may not, because it does NOT say so.

I think it could easily be argued that it was the intent of the designers but forgotten. I certainly wouldn't have an issue with someone wasting their Assault Cannon ammo on a door, and I think it is pretty obvious that if a Stormbolter can blow open a door, an Assault Cannon can. Its not like its a game breaking thing in the first place...


Nowhere do you have grounds for RAI other than previous editions of the rules, which are entirely irrelevant.

But when a rule is not clear, the best we can do is look to previous editions of the game. And the rule is obviously not clear because even those of us who have read the passage multiple times are still not sure.

Colt3840
08-09-2009, 03:32
Re. Firing during Overwatch

If i have a Genestealer who is, for arguements sake, 4 squares away from a marine on overwatch and i want to move the stealer forward and attack - does the marine get to take shot at the stealer for every square he moves or is the whole move considered one Action and the attack a second action?

S

I have a friend who has the game and this was an issue tha came up! What is the rule and were is it in the rule book so I can show him next time we play.

Thanks in advance!:D

GrogsnotPowwabomba
08-09-2009, 06:39
I have a friend who has the game and this was an issue tha came up! What is the rule and were is it in the rule book so I can show him next time we play.

Thanks in advance!:D

Every square of movement counts as an action. This is in the "Action Points" section on page 10. Just look at the action point table and you'll see what counts as an "action". The Marines wouldn't have a chance in hell in this game if they only got one Overwatch shot per corridor...

AndrewGPaul
08-09-2009, 07:25
Some of you need to read the RULES before responding to rules questions.

An Assault Cannon may NOT shoot at a door. Nowhere does it state this is possible to do, so it is not. A Storm Bolter may shoot at doors because it says so. Assault Cannons may not, because it does NOT say so.



You are applying a limitation which does not exist in the rules.

The Genestealer player can move a model or open a door that was blocking LOS to a blip. Nowhere do you have grounds for RAI other than previous editions of the rules, which are entirely irrelevant.

"Blips cannot move into a Space Marine's line of sight." This is not saying the same thing as "Blips may not take actions which result in being in LOS to a Space Marine."

The first paragraph of the shooting rules implies every weapon may shoot at a door. The rules for individual weapons then say:

a) Marines with storm bolters shoot at closing doors on overwatch

b) flamers have no effect on doors.

By my understanding, RaW, the Assault Cannon may shoot at doors, but not on overwatch. Whether this is what's intended, I have no idea. Certainly, I personally try to avoid RaW arguments in 40K and Warhammer because the wuality of writing simply isn't there. I'm as yet undecided whether this is true of Space Hulk. I can't think of a reason why the Assault Cannon would ignore closing doors while on Overwatch, but if that's how someone wishes to play it, fair enough.

SurgeMaster
08-09-2009, 07:28
I think we are getting a bit held up on this blip opening a door issue!

If a genestealers player wants too, let them! After all the blip will use 1 AP and so when converted, the genestealers will be sitting ducks with 0 AP.

Any sane person would either convert first.
OR
Let another model open the door, this would cause involuntery conversion but the genestealers would still have AP's.

Narius Phinshredder
08-09-2009, 09:52
Has anyone else spotted a possible mistake in the pitfall mission. If you count the number of marines available for the mission it's 4. But there are 5 starting points on the map! Does this mean there is a marine missing? Seems like a big mission for just 4 marines!

Zenithfleet
08-09-2009, 10:04
I think we are getting a bit held up on this blip opening a door issue!

If a genestealers player wants too, let them! After all the blip will use 1 AP and so when converted, the genestealers will be sitting ducks with 0 AP.

Any sane person would either convert first.
OR
Let another model open the door, this would cause involuntery conversion but the genestealers would still have AP's.

Absolutely agree. In my first game I wondered 'there's a door between my blip and that Marine, can I open it and thus cause the blip to be converted'? Rules seemed to say yes. Cue smug chuckle from me... til I realised that the 'stealers would have zero AP if I tried it. :rolleyes:

PS, thanks AndrewGPaul and Patriarch for the answers to my own Q's :)

xSuperioRx
08-09-2009, 11:34
I think we are getting a bit held up on this blip opening a door issue!

If a genestealers player wants too, let them! After all the blip will use 1 AP and so when converted, the genestealers will be sitting ducks with 0 AP.

Any sane person would either convert first.
OR
Let another model open the door, this would cause involuntery conversion but the genestealers would still have AP's.

There might be several reasons for opening a door to convert the blip.

Example :

If your not at the door, you can move 5 squares and open the door to reveal yourself, all with 6APs. Sure you are in LOS of a marine, but if you surround him with other stuff as well, he might not even fire that much at you.

The door might be inside a corridor, so opening it with another blip/model is out of the question.

If you'd convert him first, you'd have to stay still for a turn, next turn run to the door, turn after that run towards the marine with 1 ap less to use than if you'd reveal yourself in the door (As you'd have to open the door with 1AP).

If I'm "sane" or not, well I guess thats up to you to decide :p

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 11:46
Where I found it useful, was I had a 3 blip move 5 to a door and then open it with the last AP. Then as it was a corridoor, they way I had to reveal my genestealers meant I got one even closer to the marines (one placed where the blip was at the door, one behind and one in front) so kind of a free move.

As I was playing myself - I let me do it.

xsamx
08-09-2009, 11:55
Hi, sorry if this has been answered but i stopped reading around page 7.

Quick and perhaps naive question relating to HtH. If a Stealer has 6 AP and takes say for example, 2 AP to successfully close into HtH with a Terminator, can he then continue to use AP to attack the terminator in HtH until he kills it, or is he limited to one single attempt per Stealer turn? Also, if he is able to attack multiple times until he kills/is killed, and successfully kills the termie and still has AP remaining (eg, moves 2AP, attacks termie and kills him with 1 AP and still has 3AP left) can he then use those to say, move again and attack a second terminator? Or does a successful kill in combat finish that individual Stealers turn.

As far as the rulebook goes i see nothing stopping a single stealer unleashing bloody murder on a whole mob of marines in one turn, so long as he kills them quick enough?

precinctomega
08-09-2009, 13:34
The stealer can use as many APs as he has left to keep attacking the terminator.

If he kills the termie and has APs, left, then he can move on and potentially attack another termie. I've had stealers kill three termies in one turn before now.

R.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
08-09-2009, 16:54
I think we are getting a bit held up on this blip opening a door issue!

If a genestealers player wants too, let them! After all the blip will use 1 AP and so when converted, the genestealers will be sitting ducks with 0 AP.

Any sane person would either convert first.
OR
Let another model open the door, this would cause involuntery conversion but the genestealers would still have AP's.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I think its ok for a blip to open a door. It was my original inclination anyway, and I don't see the big deal in allowing it...

twistinthunder
08-09-2009, 18:31
So? He asked for reasons why you might wish to spend CPs on a Shoot action, rather than setting overwatch. I provided two (different) reasons.

you said he had 1 AC/CP my point was to show you he could do ANY action regardless of AC/CP as long as he had the AC/CP's to do so.

twistinthunder
08-09-2009, 18:39
Some of you need to read the RULES before responding to rules questions.

An Assault Cannon may NOT shoot at a door. Nowhere does it state this is possible to do, so it is not. A Storm Bolter may shoot at doors because it says so. Assault Cannons may not, because it does NOT say so.


nor does it say it cant.

I'm going to argue that an assault cannon MAY shoot at a door because it DOES NOT say in the rules that they may not shoot at doors.


also ive read the rules thank you very much.

AndrewGPaul
08-09-2009, 21:56
you said he had 1 AC/CP my point was to show you he could do ANY action regardless of AC/CP as long as he had the AC/CP's to do so.

I may have not worded it well. The original question was "why would you do a Shoot action in the 'stealer's turn using CPs instead of going on overwatch?" My two answers were: either he only has 1 CP left, in which case he can't go on overwatch, or he wants to fire the flamer. That's got nothing to do with the fact that you can perform any action using CPs - I never claimed otherwise.

AndrewGPaul
08-09-2009, 22:02
Page 12: "Space Marines are armed with ... powerful heavy weapons. They may fire these at ... closed doors"

shows Marines can, in general, shoot closed doors.

Page 19 (Storm Bolter, shooting at doors): "If a door closes ... in the ine of sight of a Space Marine on overwatch, he will shoot at the door"

Page 21 (Heavy Flamer, Flamers and Doors): "Flamers cannot destroy or shoot through closed doors."

So, IMO, taking the rules as written;

A marine, in his own turn, may fire any weapon at a door. A Storm Bolter will affect it normally. An assault cannon will affect it normally (page 12 says you can, the Assault Cannon rules do not contradict this). A Storm Bolter will affect it normally. A Flamer will have no effect on the door (but will set the door square and the rest of the section on the same side of the door alight).

On overwatch, only the storm bolter will fire at a door that has been closed. That's a special rule of the storm bolter.

That's how I see it. That may not be the original intent, but that seems to be what's written.

fiore hellheart
09-09-2009, 06:26
Just thinking right, it says you can perform an action using command points after a stealer action ends in line of sight, does that mean you can step back usipoints when ang two action stealer steps towards you? and would you be able to shoot as part of that action. (I know for sure you can if you move forwards but can you if you step backwards)

On the same vein could you shoot using the assault cannon at long ranges by not putting it on overwatch but by using command points to shoot anything that gets in line of sight, at even more than 12 squares away.

destroyerlord
09-09-2009, 06:30
I agree with AndrewGPaul on assault cannons and doors. The marine player certainly gets little benefit from the wasted ammo, and it makes sense that he wont shoot at closing doors when on overwatch as he is trained not to waster that ammo needlessly!
I don't understand any of the confusion on blips and doors. The rule specifically allows it. If you are claiming you can't open a door that gives line of sight to a blip, you should probably try reading the rules again.
The CP rule is simply to stop the marine player from using more points than he has available, while still keeping the number secret from the genestealer player. If you cheat, you loose. Simple. I'm not sure if you can check the number during your turn or not though...

shadow hunter
09-09-2009, 08:37
fiore hellheart - 09-09-2009, 07:26
Just thinking right, it says you can perform an action using command points after a stealer action ends in line of sight, does that mean you can step back usipoints when ang two action stealer steps towards you? and would you be able to shoot as part of that action. (I know for sure you can if you move forwards but can you if you step backwards)

On the same vein could you shoot using the assault cannon at long ranges by not putting it on overwatch but by using command points to shoot anything that gets in line of sight, at even more than 12 squares away.

As far as I know - you cant move backwards at all anyway.

destroyerlord
09-09-2009, 08:41
Of course you can. 2AP move backwards. There is even a summary on the back of the rulebook people!

shadow hunter
09-09-2009, 09:02
Sorry - at work. I could have swore i'd read that marines couldn't walk backwards. Ignore me then. :p

I tried to get another practise game in last night to learn the rules, but the girlfriend decided I would have more fun mowing the lawns.

mattjgilbert
09-09-2009, 09:06
Work has got in the way. I'll round things up and do a v0.2 of the Q&A on the weekend (I hope!)

Patriarch
09-09-2009, 11:26
Of course you can. 2AP move backwards. There is even a summary on the back of the rulebook people!

Yep. And fire as part of the action. So spending 2CPs to step back and shoot at an approaching stealer (using a bolter or assault cannon) is a legit response.

fiore hellheart
09-09-2009, 13:58
Awsome, crazy run close then run away tactics are forming in my head.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 15:09
There still seems to be some issue with the Assault cannon shooting at doors.

The rules state it fires like a storm bolter but with three dice and needing a different score to hit. Then it details the ammo etc. I would say this clearly states that you can shoot at doors - as this section does not say by storm bolter only - though it does say on a '6'.

As for shooting on overwatch, I agree that this would not be the case with the assualt cannon as it would be far too easy to use up it's ammo in this way and can be assumed that the marine was told to check his target first.

Having played mission 2 yesterday and almost exhausted the ammo and reload I don't think that shooting doors other than as overkill from a shot against an adjacent target is a viable option anyway.

The only rule I ever needed clarifying was whether the genestealers had reinforcements on their first turn as well as the starting blips but this has long been cleared up now. I have come across no other issues except whether or not Prescience can be used more than onve per turn - it does state one power per turn if I recall but not how many times. Any thoughts?

Personally I'd allow it as any mission using the librarian really needs the psi points to be conserved and a reckless spender of those points will only end up failing anyway. I only just managed mission 6 with four survivors having used the very last two psi poits on the last turn as he fled the board.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
09-09-2009, 16:21
Awsome, crazy run close then run away tactics are forming in my head.

Seems like a waste of CP in most situations to be honest, but eat your heart out if thats how you want to use them.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 16:24
I agree, your marines are too slow to be able to run away and get onto overwatch again in time to make this effective.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
09-09-2009, 16:26
Here's a quick one I wasn't sure about. When exactly does the Genestealer player place his starting Blips? Is it before or after the Marine player has placed his forces?

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 16:32
Hmm, a good point. The rules don't mention it. In second ed I placed them in order of whomever had first turn placed their starting forces first. With marines always moving first now i guess you could deploy them first, but then the whole point of starting forces versus reinforcements is so the marine player may be able to position his men differently from what is ahead.

Maybe dice off for it or just do it and not worry about what the player is doing - when playing with another. Personally how I deploy my marines is dependent on the mission and my tactics and nothing to do with the genestealers blips.

fiore hellheart
09-09-2009, 17:04
Seems like a waste of CP in most situations to be honest, but eat your heart out if thats how you want to use them.
Well it makes the game seem more interesting i suppose.

rev
10-09-2009, 12:08
I play:

Marine deploys > Stealer deploys 2 blips to Lurk > Marine Turn 1 > Stealer recieves 2 more reinforcement blips > Stealer turn 1 (2 blips already deployed, 2 blips come on from wherever stealer player chooses)

rev

vodski
10-09-2009, 21:24
A point to ponder ,
Does the stealer player get reinforcements first turn . On reading the rules for the first time I thought no. i.e. on the mission I played it states that the stealers start with two blips. Looking at the white dwarf game they played they only had 2 blips on for turn one.

twistinthunder
11-09-2009, 06:01
wow, vodski read the thread.

this question has been answered yes if i have 2 blips to start with and 2 blips reinforcement per turn the first turn i get 4 blips.

in WD they didnt start with any blips and got 2 blips reinforcement each turn

precinctomega
11-09-2009, 07:16
Indeed. The stealers have different starting conditions, depending on the mission being played.

R.

Frozen Yakman
11-09-2009, 15:21
Say you have a genestealer around a corner from a terminator in overwatch. Does the terminator get a shot at the genestealer when the genestealer round the corner in view or does overwatch only trigger if the genestealer began his action in LOS?

vodski
11-09-2009, 17:09
wow, vodski read the thread.

this question has been answered yes if i have 2 blips to start with and 2 blips reinforcement per turn the first turn i get 4 blips.

in WD they didnt start with any blips and got 2 blips reinforcement each turn

Hey! I did read the thread. Altough I must say as I was halfway through a bottle of wine, and I didn't check the mission rules, which are of course different, ( kids, drinking is not big and its not clever). What an idiot.:o

AndrewGPaul
11-09-2009, 17:11
Rulebook is a little vague; "He must take one shoot action each time a Genestealer performs an action within his line of sight ... fire is resolved after the Genestealer has performed its action..."
(page 13)

So, yes, you shoot. No, it doesn't need to start in LOS.

The only exception is if the 'stealer closes a door to block LOS. In this case, a Marine with a storm bolter shoots the door (page 19)

Patriarch
11-09-2009, 18:46
Hey! I did read the thread. Altough I must say as I was halfway through a bottle of wine, and I didn't check the mission rules, which are of course different, ( kids, drinking is not big and its not clever). What an idiot.:o
Nothing wrong with a bottle of wine...you are probably safer having a drink on Warseer than on eBay...!

You always get to shoot at the stealer as long as it ends the action within 12 squares and your LOS. The only exception is if the stealer closes a door to block your LOS, in which case you can try and shoot the door. This might be an idea if you are trying to get the assault cannon to use up ammo.

Edit: Ninja'd!

wilsongrahams
11-09-2009, 19:25
A good point here - don't put the assualt cannon on overwatch if there is there is a good chance he will be able to open fire using command points and kill the closer target that triggered it and also other targets further down the hulk in his view. I had this in misison ten and the extra shots were able to rip down the corridor not wasting those extra hits. A clever stealer will move the closest stealer first before moving the furthest ones where they are now out of sight though.

fe2mike
11-09-2009, 20:16
Here's a quick one I wasn't sure about. When exactly does the Genestealer player place his starting Blips? Is it before or after the Marine player has placed his forces?

the genestealer player places his after the marine player has deployed. (as in mission briefing on page 9 of mission book)

my question is, does the sustained fire bonus reset if during overwatch the genestealer moves out of view and back into view?

eek107
11-09-2009, 21:57
my question is, does the sustained fire bonus reset if during overwatch the genestealer moves out of view and back into view?

No. As long as he is firing at the same target, without him taking any other actions between shots, then he receives the bonus.

wilsongrahams
12-09-2009, 11:04
I have played it that it is a newly emerging target and so losed the bonus.

I do have a new question though. On mission Eleven, it describes dmaaging and destroying the power field generators, but doesn't state whether the ap's have to all be spent in the same turn or not.

Eg 1, Stealer runs up to power field, wastes extra points, spends two turns destroying it then can move off next turn,

Or

Eg 2, Stealer runs up to power field and spends his remaining points attacking, next turn enough are caused to damage and partially destroy, then the next turn destroys and uses the remaining points to run forwards.

Apart from keeping track of damage this could mean there is a whole turn difference in the delay of the stealer. I'm tempted to say all ap's have to be spent in the same turn like Eg 1, as most actions of this type including reloading, accessing a computer etc are usually done this way.

What does everyone else think?

Patriarch
12-09-2009, 21:29
I have played it that it is a newly emerging target and so losed the bonus.

I do have a new question though. On mission Eleven, it describes dmaaging and destroying the power field generators, but doesn't state whether the ap's have to all be spent in the same turn or not.

Eg 1, Stealer runs up to power field, wastes extra points, spends two turns destroying it then can move off next turn,

Or

Eg 2, Stealer runs up to power field and spends his remaining points attacking, next turn enough are caused to damage and partially destroy, then the next turn destroys and uses the remaining points to run forwards.

Apart from keeping track of damage this could mean there is a whole turn difference in the delay of the stealer. I'm tempted to say all ap's have to be spent in the same turn like Eg 1, as most actions of this type including reloading, accessing a computer etc are usually done this way.

What does everyone else think?

All in one go. Basically your stealer will waste one turn getting to the field, two entire turns attacking it and doing nothing else (6APs), and finally the fourth turn moving through the now-empty square. By that time the marines should have moved on. Always found that frustrating with that mission, it used to be an auto-win using a captain - can't imagine it's any harder with a "psychic blocking" librarian.

wilsongrahams
12-09-2009, 21:40
Thanks for that. It was how I thought it read but wanted to make sure. I haven't played the mission yet but with the limited ammo and weapons surely it won't be all that easy? Or does it just look harder than it is like mission seven and eight?

IAMNOTHERE
13-09-2009, 08:28
I've a question about passing the CAT. Do the passer and the reciever need to be facing each other or just in adjacent squares?

I did mission 3? last night and had a 6 termy relay going in 1 turn! Just wondered if it's legal.

wilsongrahams
13-09-2009, 10:00
The rules do not say the reciever has to be facing the giver so no. Feel free to pass forwards. I believe the CAT still counts as an object and the giver can only pass to somebody to his front space though.

IAMNOTHERE
13-09-2009, 11:02
That's fine, relay race training for my termies it is then.

strewart
13-09-2009, 14:28
What happens if a flamer marine fires at a section containing blips that are out of line of sight? Do they just get revealed and torched?

wilsongrahams
13-09-2009, 15:03
They are not revealed, but destroyed on a 2+ as normal for anything in a space. All genestealers are killed in the one hit.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
14-09-2009, 01:58
the genestealer player places his after the marine player has deployed. (as in mission briefing on page 9 of mission book)


Nice find there. Didn't expect it on that page. Thanks!

Daemonslave
14-09-2009, 17:08
Sorry if these have already been asked but I have a few questions.

1. If a genestealer engages a marine in CC but the result is a tie, what can the Marine do in his following phase. Can he move away, shoot, etc, or does he have to fight on.

2. Overwatch. I have a few issues with this. If two (or more) genestealers are charging a marine on overwatch, what happens. Say the first genestealer made it three squares before being gunned down, does the second genestealer start to take fire from this square or does the genestealer take fire from all of the squares it moves through (even though it had a genestealer blocking it off for a lot of its move).

GrogsnotPowwabomba
14-09-2009, 18:18
1. If a genestealer engages a marine in CC but the result is a tie, what can the Marine do in his following phase. Can he move away, shoot, etc, or does he have to fight on.

The Marine is free to make any legal moves/actions in his turn. The previous combat has no consequence.


2. Overwatch. I have a few issues with this. If two (or more) genestealers are charging a marine on overwatch, what happens. Say the first genestealer made it three squares before being gunned down, does the second genestealer start to take fire from this square or does the genestealer take fire from all of the squares it moves through (even though it had a genestealer blocking it off for a lot of its move).

The second Genestealer will take fire from all squares it moves through, because the first Genestealer must begin and complete its action in its entirety before the second Genestealer can begin. Since the first Genestealer is dead and gone before the second one is moving, it is not blocking LOS in any way. Knowing this, it is best to first advance Genestealers in the rear of a group when possible as they will be shielded by the ones in the front and thus not come under fire from Overwatch.

Colt3840
14-09-2009, 21:14
1. If a genestealer engages a marine in CC but the result is a tie, what can the Marine do in his following phase. Can he move away, shoot, etc, or does he have to fight on.

The Marine is free to make any legal moves/actions in his turn. The previous combat has no consequence.



The only way it can be a draw is if the Marine has his back or side to the Geenstealer. If the outcome is a tie the Marine can turn to face the 'stealer so on the next attack a roll higher or tie he would kill the 'stealer. That is how i read Pg 15.

Daemonslave
14-09-2009, 21:51
The only way it can be a draw is if the Marine has his back or side to the Geenstealer. If the outcome is a tie the Marine can turn to face the 'stealer so on the next attack a roll higher or tie he would kill the 'stealer. That is how i read Pg 15.

Nope, the Genestealer rolls 3 dice and picks the highest, the marine has one dice. If they are the same score the combat is a tie.

The facing issue is only to do with killing your opponent. If you win the combat but are not facing him (i.e. you have been attacked from the side or behind) then instead of killing him you simply tie the combat instead.

Thanks for the replies guys, though I personally don't agree with how my second question was answered. I think I'll make a house rule that trailing genestealers charging in groups cannot be shot in overwatch until they reach the square where the one is front was killed. Because, let's face it, they woudn't run one at a time at the Astartes, but all together, the first one taking all the bullets whilst the others are protected up the rear.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
14-09-2009, 22:35
Nope, the Genestealer rolls 3 dice and picks the highest, the marine has one dice. If they are the same score the combat is a tie.

The facing issue is only to do with killing your opponent. If you win the combat but are not facing him (i.e. you have been attacked from the side or behind) then instead of killing him you simply tie the combat instead.

I'm not sure why you are attempting to correct him, because he said the same thing as you.


Thanks for the replies guys, though I personally don't agree with how my second question was answered. I think I'll make a house rule that trailing genestealers charging in groups cannot be shot in overwatch until they reach the square where the one is front was killed. Because, let's face it, they woudn't run one at a time at the Astartes, but all together, the first one taking all the bullets whilst the others are protected up the rear.

This is how it has always worked, and the rule has never been an issue. You have to think of it as a continuous hail of shots going down the corridor, and not as it actually plays out in the game mechanics. Overwatch is fine as it is and I think you would tip the balance too much in the favor of the Genestealers by altering this fundamental rule. But its your game in the end, so whatever floats your boat...

AndrewGPaul
14-09-2009, 23:19
The only way it can be a draw is if the Marine has his back or side to the Genestealer. If the outcome is a tie the Marine can turn to face the 'stealer so on the next attack a roll higher or tie he would kill the 'stealer. That is how i read Pg 15.


Nope, the Genestealer rolls 3 dice and picks the highest, the marine has one dice. If they are the same score the combat is a tie.

The facing issue is only to do with killing your opponent. If you win the combat but are not facing him (i.e. you have been attacked from the side or behind) then instead of killing him you simply tie the combat instead.


I'm not sure why you are attempting to correct him, because he said the same thing as you.

Not quite; Colt3480 appears to be saying that you cannot get a tie if both combatants are facing each other, and that Marines win ties in close combat. This is not the case.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
15-09-2009, 01:27
Not quite; Colt3480 appears to be saying that you cannot get a tie if both combatants are facing each other, and that Marines win ties in close combat. This is not the case.

Oh you are right, I missed that small point. My bad and my apologies.

My point on not altering Overwatch stands though. :p

mattjgilbert
15-09-2009, 09:49
OK, it's slightly later than I hoped but here is v0.2 of the Q&A. I might not have captured all the questions but in some cases that's because they haven't been answered yet!

Let me know what you think.

mattjgilbert
15-09-2009, 16:35
I'd like feedback on the question of whether the marine player is allowed to look at his command points once his action phase has started. I've currently worded the answer so that he cannot (as per a suggestion here) but is this right? I always played that the player could check at any time - plus there is nothing to stop the player writing it down somewhere or hiding a die to remind him of the number...

Thoughts?

Patriarch
15-09-2009, 18:52
Thanks for the replies guys, though I personally don't agree with how my second question was answered. I think I'll make a house rule that trailing genestealers charging in groups cannot be shot in overwatch until they reach the square where the one is front was killed. Because, let's face it, they woudn't run one at a time at the Astartes, but all together, the first one taking all the bullets whilst the others are protected up the rear.
That is how we played 1st ed for the first few games. Needless to say, the marines got slaughtered every single time (until we checked the rules properly).
Personally, I'm not sold on the sustained fire for overwatch, but that's the rule. If you think OW makes the marines too powerful, try losing SF.

I'd like feedback on the question of whether the marine player is allowed to look at his command points once his action phase has started. I've currently worded the answer so that he cannot (as per a suggestion here) but is this right? I always played that the player could check at any time - plus there is nothing to stop the player writing it down somewhere or hiding a die to remind him of the number...
Thoughts?
I think the marine should be able to check his CPs at any time. It's not like you keep the ammo expenditure secret. The only reason the stealer player even looks after these is to give him something to do during the marine turn (apart from remove dead stealers) and means the marine doesn't use up the timer on bookkeeping.
Keeping it secret is just forcing the marine to remember a number or lose the game - he's got enough things to be worried about.

P6: 1st question on P6 is not a "yes or no" question - the answer should be a little clearer ("yes he can shoot.").
Don't agree that assault cannon do not shoot at doors on OW.

mattjgilbert
15-09-2009, 19:18
I think the marine should be able to check his CPs at any time. It's not like you keep the ammo expenditure secret. The only reason the stealer player even looks after these is to give him something to do during the marine turn (apart from remove dead stealers) and means the marine doesn't use up the timer on bookkeeping.
Keeping it secret is just forcing the marine to remember a number or lose the game - he's got enough things to be worried about.I'd prefer it to work this way. The secrecy thing seems a little strange to me too. If we get more votes for the marines being able to check the number... I'll amend the answer.


P6: 1st question on P6 is not a "yes or no" question - the answer should be a little clearer ("yes he can shoot.").OK, I'll check that one and do that. Thanks.

Don't agree that assault cannon do not shoot at doors on OW.Yeah I'm personally still undecided. Let's see if we can get a concensus and agree what the answer should be.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
15-09-2009, 21:35
Yeah I'm personally still undecided. Let's see if we can get a concensus and agree what the answer should be.

It doesn't say that the Assault Cannon must fire at the door, so they don't. I think this is because the ammunition is finite.

Patriarch
16-09-2009, 12:10
It doesn't say that the Assault Cannon must fire at the door, so they don't. I think this is because the ammunition is finite.
It doesn't say that they can shoot at doors at all. Since we are equating the AC with the SB because it is common sense/RAI, seems only fair you get the bad with the good.

Overwatch is essentially the same process no matter what you are using to shoot with - its a quick reaction shot towards sudden movement, without stopping to think if the shot is worth the ammo/risk of jamming.

AndrewGPaul
16-09-2009, 13:11
The general rules for shooting imply any weapon can target a door. The specific rules for storm bolters say they fire at closing doors on overwatch. The specific rules for the flamer says it has no effect. Thus, the rules say the assault cannon can shoot doors, but that it cannot do so on overwatch.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
16-09-2009, 14:51
The general rules for shooting imply any weapon can target a door. The specific rules for storm bolters say they fire at closing doors on overwatch. The specific rules for the flamer says it has no effect. Thus, the rules say the assault cannon can shoot doors, but that it cannot do so on overwatch.

Thank you for saying it better than me. This is exactly how I interpret it. :)

destroyerlord
17-09-2009, 07:38
I vote marines can check CPs at any time. I do it all the time, and like I said earlier, I don't believe loosing the game is meant to be a memory test, more like a cheating test.
I doubt we will get a consensus on the assault cannon rule, the problem being that overwatch and doors rule is in the storm bolter rules not in the general rules. SBs and flamers get specific mentions in the rules, but the AC does not. Thus the best we can do is interpret it how we feel it should be played, and everyone interprets things differently.

TheSil
17-09-2009, 10:43
I also vote for the checking of CP for the marine, same reasons as stated above.

I also have a few questions of my own, I recently unpacked my Space Hulk and played the first missions and the following things came up:

In mission 4 it says that the Space Marine player needs to "Fire into a room twice with his AC to clense it" and that he "can target empty spaces" to achieve this.
So what if he fires at a Genestealer in this room? Does this count toward the cleansing? I would naturally say it doesn't, but the rules explicitly stay "can" and not "must" target empty spaces. Additionally the flame thrower isn't limited in this way either and any Flame shot at a Genestealer will cleanse the room. However the Flamer is Area of Effect while the AC is not.


About the heavy flamer:
I was also wondering what a section was and the examples in the FAQ only partly answered my questions.
I am not sure how it works in corridors. You say a "corridor piece" can be from 1 up to 5 squares long, so I assume the intention is truly that it directly refers to the individual cardboard pieces that make up the map. Therefore in a corridor that consists of a 4 square and 5 square piece I could set only one of them on fire with a shot and not both right?
However it seems to me that the cardboard pieces are sometimes assembled in a unrepresentative way (probably to the fact that there is only a limited number of each)
The best example would be a 5 square long corridor that is assembled with a 2 square and 3 square piece (such as in map 4). Now you should theoretically be able to light a 5 square corridor, but if you take the individual cardboard pieces as natural boarders then you could only light either 2 or 3 fields, simply because you assembled it this way. (Which doesn't make any sense to me)
So is the answer that it can simply light "up to 5 squares of any corridor" no matter how long the corridor is? This way the 5 squares would have to be center of the template (which would have to be centered on the first Genestealer in LOS) and the two squares behind and in front of it. Can Brother Zael light himself on fire if he shoots a flamer into a corridor and the next Genestealer is 1 square away then?


Is there any reason why the weapons list on page 20 includes a storm bolter with sniper upgrade as 2.? Because I cannot see any rules for a sniper rifle anywhere. This weapon brings Brother Deino no advantage whatsoever right?


Finally I have a question about the lurking bit. It says that models have to lurk if a marine is "at least 6 squares away". How does this work with corners or other diagonal fields? A model is able to move diagonally, so let's say if you count movement steps it is 6 squares away. However if you count all squares on the way to the entry point you would include the square on the corner and suddenly the marine is 7 squares away. (I would say squares that can be jumped are discarded, but a confirmation would be nice)
Could you say that as soon as a Genestealer can theoretically enter the board and attack the marine (5 squares to move + 1 AP to attack = marine 6 squares away) in the first turn it has to lurk, otherwise it can attack. (I guess this is the purpose of the rule)
So the marine on page 16 of the rulebook would need to be two squares closer in order to block the second entry point as well?

AndrewGPaul
17-09-2009, 10:55
If the rules say "can target an empty square", this means exactly what it says - can, not must. It's only there so the 'stealer player can't force a loss by never putting a 'stealer into the target room.

The flamer affects one board section, precisely as written in the rules. Yes, this can be a single square (or 13 squares, if you fire into the 4x3 room or the room with 4 exits). The map should always be assembled precisely as shown in the diagrams (well, using the same shaped pieces - you don't have to slavishly use the same pieces with the same artwork), for exactly this reason.

By "weapons list on page 20", do you mean the picture? That's fluff, not rules. Deino fires the same as Goriel, Optio or Lorenzo do.

You mean 'stealers have to lurk if a Marine is 6 squares or less away. :) you can always count diagonally when measuring a distance.

Patriarch
17-09-2009, 12:26
The general rules for shooting imply any weapon can target a door. The specific rules for storm bolters say they fire at closing doors on overwatch. The specific rules for the flamer says it has no effect. Thus, the rules say the assault cannon can shoot doors, but that it cannot do so on overwatch.
Just to go to VERY silly RAW lengths here, I reread the rule in the Storm Bolter section. It actually states that a Marine on overwatch must shoot at doors which are closed in range and LOS.

What it specifically doesn't say is "a Marine with a Storm Bolter". It doesn't talk about what the marine is armed with; we are inferring that from the section its written in.

I think its a general rule they stuck in a not-quite-the-right-place, or forgot to cross-reference properly in the AC section. Doubtless this will be sorted with an official FAQ (and I'll be proved right :p), in the meantime we'll all play the way we interpret it as per Destroyerlord.

Either way I can't imagine it changing many games, so I guess the unofficial FAQ to help players out it could be either way.

Still no answer on the "Marine" = Librarian/Seargeant question from the missions book!



In mission 4 it says that the Space Marine player needs to "Fire into a room twice with his AC to clense it" and that he "can target empty spaces" to achieve this.
So what if he fires at a Genestealer in this room? Does this count toward the cleansing?
No. Think of it as having to shoot the Techmarine - if you do this, you can't also be shooting a stealer except with an area weapon like the flamer.


About the heavy flamer:
I was also wondering what a section was and the examples in the FAQ only partly answered my questions.
I am not sure how it works in corridors. You say a "corridor piece" can be from 1 up to 5 squares long, so I assume the intention is truly that it directly refers to the individual cardboard pieces that make up the map. Therefore in a corridor that consists of a 4 square and 5 square piece I could set only one of them on fire with a shot and not both right?
It's entirely on the physical size of the board piece. A 2+3 corridor would take 2 shots to fill with flames, a 5-corridor would take only 1 shot. It's one of the abstractions of the game. You get the precise layout from the map; a 2+3 corridor is not a substitute for a 5 corridor.


Is there any reason why the weapons list on page 20 includes a storm bolter with sniper upgrade as 2.? Because I cannot see any rules for a sniper rifle anywhere. This weapon brings Brother Deino no advantage whatsoever right?

Correct, no advantage.


Finally I have a question about the lurking bit....
The easiest way to think of this is: could a stealer move onto the board and occupy a space currently occupied by a marine (assuming no barriers to movement). If yes, the stealer is within 6 squares and must lurk. Basically, there is no chance of a new stealer coming on to the board and attacking a marine in close combat; the marine always gets a chance to move away or set overwatch or whatever.

TheSil
17-09-2009, 14:35
No. Think of it as having to shoot the Techmarine - if you do this, you can't also be shooting a stealer except with an area weapon like the flamer.

Yes I thought so as well, on the other hand maybe you could say that the AC fires so many shots that it hits the Techmarine behind the stealer as well...
But if you are sure about this than a am very happy because its the much more logical solution.

Leeman Russ
17-09-2009, 15:22
Still no answer on the "Marine" = Librarian/Seargeant question from the missions book!

One way of answering this, in any situation, is that All Librarians/Sergeants etc. are Marines, but not all Marines are Librarians/Sergeants.

A Marine Sergeant still had to do his Marine training etc before he became a sergeant, ergo all Sergeants/Librarians are 'Marines with Storm Bolters', albeit with different abilities.

Patriarch
17-09-2009, 17:34
One way of answering this, in any situation, is that All Librarians/Sergeants etc. are Marines, but not all Marines are Librarians/Sergeants.

A Marine Sergeant still had to do his Marine training etc before he became a sergeant, ergo all Sergeants/Librarians are 'Marines with Storm Bolters', albeit with different abilities.
This is the logical answer BUT in Mission 11 (Unknown Lifeforms), the sample is extracted by "A Space Marine other than the Librarian or Seargeant must spend their entire turn....etc". Fluff-wise there is no logical argument for this ("I got promoted, therefore I am now incapable of using a syringe"), it is just for game balance (sending the Librarian off to complete the mission makes it way too easy). Is this mission unique in this respect, or are some of the others where "a Marine must do X" also supposed to mean "a basic marine"? I'm thinking specifically of Mission 8 ("one of the marines is carrying the artefact").

AndrewGPaul
17-09-2009, 17:47
As you note, that mission specifically states "A Space Marine other than the Librarian or Sergeant...". This implies that in all other cases, Gideon, Lorenzo and Calistarius are Space Marines, for the purposes of firing storm bolters, objectives, etc.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-09-2009, 19:36
Another question I saw in another thread and didn't know the answer to:

If a Marine is physically blocking an entry point, are Genestealers able to attack him from the entry point waiting area or are they effectively taken out of the game by this action until the Marine is killed or moves?

mattjgilbert
17-09-2009, 19:39
IIRC, in 1st ed all models in the entry area could attack. There are no such rules in 3rd edition though but it sounds like there should be.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-09-2009, 22:27
IIRC, in 1st ed all models in the entry area could attack. There are no such rules in 3rd edition though but it sounds like there should be.

Just an oversight it seems and it makes total sense. Until I see a FAQ of some sort, I will play that Genestealers who have lurked for the required turn due to the Marine being within 6 squares can attack the Marine adjacent to the entry point as normal.

RFT
18-09-2009, 22:31
That is how we played 1st ed for the first few games. Needless to say, the marines got slaughtered every single time (until we checked the rules properly).

Same here. only without the "checking the rules properly" part. I only realised that we'd been playing the rules wrong years later when playing a computer implementation of the 1st ed rules.

destroyerlord
19-09-2009, 02:10
It makes sense to let them attack, although RAW (if you play that way, which I prefer not to) states something along the lines of "stealers at an entry point are not yet considered in play" (paraphrased). It takes an action point to move on to the board, and from that point on the model is considered in play. By that rule the model could not attack while it was "not in play". Although the section on revealing stealers before you move them on to the map may contradict this, I'm not sure. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, this is just going from memory.
So I would play yes they can attack, although (from memory) the rules sort of prevent this.

Brother Constantine
19-09-2009, 04:15
I have a question about the Heavy Flamer.

If Brother Zael fires his flamer into a room that has an unconverted blip in it which is not in his line of sight do you roll once to see if the blip is killed on a 2+, or do you involuntarily convert the blip and roll to wound all of the 'stealers?

Leeman Russ
19-09-2009, 07:58
I'm pretty sure you just kill the blip on a 2+.

mattjgilbert
19-09-2009, 08:09
Roll for each model or blip in the flamed section, in LOS or not. Each is killed on a 2+. You do not convert blips.



As you note, that mission specifically states "A Space Marine other than the Librarian or Sergeant...". This implies that in all other cases, Gideon, Lorenzo and Calistarius are Space MarinesAbsolutly. They do not stop being Space Marines due to promotion/different skills :) That fist part of the sentance makes that clear.
So unless the mission specifically calls out models which cannot do something, the rules for marines apply to them all.

TheSil
19-09-2009, 09:13
Hi, just a quick clarification about the artifact mission.

Is it true that the Stealers can carry the artifact from the beginning?

I found it a bit odd that you have this awesome room with a dead Space Marine and the Marines seem pretty unlikely to ever enter it...
Since the Stealers are faster they should be able to reach the room first, snatch the artifact and play a little runaway game with the marines, pass it from stealer to stealer and let the marines catch them.

Besides, why should the real Genestealers have any interest in stealing a worthless holy cup from a dead space marine when they would rather attack the living space marines at the other side of the corridor

Is this really how the mission is intended? Or is there something I have missed and the Stealers can only carry the artifact once the Marines recovered it or not carry it at all?

Brother Constantine
19-09-2009, 17:09
Thank you for the Heavy Flamer clarification :evilgrin: I like that I don't have to convert a blip to kill it!

@ TheSil

The rules about objects on pg 18 of the rules doesn't say that 'Stealers can't carry objects, but my impression is that they would leave it alone in favour of concentrating on ripping terminators appart.

In mission III pg 14 even if the CAT is in the same square as a 'Stealer it moves off in a random direction, implying that the 'Stealers can't or don't care to pick it up.

I would be inclined to think the same in the artifact mission...'Stealers wouldn't carry the cup around.

fiore hellheart
19-09-2009, 17:41
The rules about objects on pg 18 of the rules doesn't say that 'Stealers can't carry objects, but my impression is that they would leave it alone in favour of concentrating on ripping terminators appart.

Well this is all a case of rules as written or rules as intended. I believe fully that the designers inteded for 'stealers to be unable to pick up objects and this is how i play the game, hhowever should you wish to act like you have a brick up yer **** you should feel free to abuse the rules unfairly against the marine player.

TheSil
19-09-2009, 18:20
If the intention of the designers was that Stealers can't carry any objects, why does mission 3 then specify in full detail that stealers can not pick up the CAT object and have to leave it behind when moving on?
If this would be a general rule for objects it would be in the object section, which on the other hand clearly states that any model can pick up an object.

I think Stealers should not be able to carry the cup around. But so far I see no clue in the rules, nor any hint for a designer intention that indicates that they cannot do so...

/edit: apart from the clue that the mission gets kindof stupid for the marines if the stealers can run away with the cup of course :p

fiore hellheart
19-09-2009, 19:39
If the intention of the designers was that Stealers can't carry any objects, why does mission 3 then specify in full detail that stealers can not pick up the CAT object and have to leave it behind when moving on?
If this would be a general rule for objects it would be in the object section, which on the other hand clearly states that any model can pick up an object.

I think Stealers should not be able to carry the cup around. But so far I see no clue in the rules, nor any hint for a designer intention that indicates that they cannot do so...

/edit: apart from the clue that the mission gets kindof stupid for the marines if the stealers can run away with the cup of course :p

Hmm, good point, however i think it is to make the point that the stealer can not be on the same square as the cat scanner but may be on the same square as the goblet, yet does not take it when it moves. I think that satisfies both rules as written and rules as intended.

TheSil
19-09-2009, 19:53
the stealer can not be on the same square as the cat scanner
afaik the stealer can be on the same square as the CAT, just can't take it with him

fiore hellheart
19-09-2009, 23:47
afaik the stealer can be on the same square as the CAT, just can't take it with him

o yea, i read it as having to move off automatically when it steps on the squre but having a second look it does mean when it usually moves. Hmm odd then.

hereticdave
22-09-2009, 13:58
Further on the artifact it's been there for millenia since the heresy in an untouched sealed room [though the story makes no mention of the dead marine] they're not interested in objects just the drive to kill and procreate.

That said judging by the models they do seem to have an unhealthy obsession with collecting skulls and helmets :P

GrogsnotPowwabomba
22-09-2009, 16:52
Genestealers cannot carry the artifact. I know this because the mission would be completely and utterly broken otherwise, and its obviously an oversight in the rules.

TheSil
22-09-2009, 16:57
Thought so, good then :)

Zenithfleet
23-09-2009, 11:38
Sorry if these questions have already been answered--I didn't see them on a quick skim through the thread...

1. When you place Genestealers after revealing a blip, can they be placed on diagonally adjacent squares? (I'm pretty sure the answer is yes, as the movement diagram earlier in the rulebook shows 'adjacent squares' as including diagonals, but my opponent was a bit grouchy about it as he found himself one square closer to my 'stealers than he'd expected and ended up losing a Marine...:p)

2. If a blip is near a Marine but out of his LOS (e.g. to his left), and he makes a turn action to bring it into his LOS, thus causing the 'stealers to be involuntarily revealed, can he combine that turn action with the free shoot action and blast one of the newly revealed 'stealers? In other words, can he declare 'I'm turning and shooting at that blip' even though he doesn't know what he's shooting at til after he's turned?

3. We currently play that CPs used in the 'stealer turn can be played on any Marine, not necessarily the one who saw the 'stealer do something (since he's communicating with his team). But if a 'stealer makes an action within LOS of a Marine on overwatch, does that mean that he shoots AND that the Marine player can use a CP to respond to the 'stealer? If so, is this considered simultaneous, or could he perform the overwatch shoot action first, then use the CP to unjam if necessary, before the 'stealer does another action?

AndrewGPaul
23-09-2009, 12:20
1) Yes. As you say, diagonals are always adjacent. Your opponent should be more careful. :)

2) Yes, I belive he can.

3) The rules as written state that CPs can be spent on any Marine, not just the one witnessing the 'stealer action. This may mean one Marine fires on overwatch and another also does something.

However, you may not fire on Overwatch, jam and immediately spend a CP to unjam. If a Marine jams on Overwatch, the 'stealer needs to make another action before he can unjam his gun. A model may either fire on Overwatch or spend a CP to make an action in response to a 'stealer making an action, but not both.

wilsongrahams
23-09-2009, 14:56
l'd not let the same marine fire on overwatch AND use the command point even though this is not specifically denied in the rules but it is against the intention of the rules. Using the CP on another marine whilst the spotting marine fires his overwatch is fine though 'Marius help me I'm under attack' for example!

eriochrome
23-09-2009, 15:03
I think that a marine on overwatch cannot make any other actions without lossing overwatch status so while you could do something you would probably need a good reason since you will lose your overwatch. Order might be interesting since both the action and overwatch happen after the stealer moves but order is not defined.

I do not think you can clear a jam since the gun is not jammed til after your overwatach shot which is past the point you would say you are doing the action. You would probably have to say you are clearing the jam before the jam and have to spend the command point whether or not it actually jams.

wilsongrahams
23-09-2009, 15:19
The overwatch shot is still a response to the movement and so the same marine cannot use the o/w and the cp in response to one stealer action, however i would say that you would be allowed to use a cp instead of the overwatch shot - the cp overriding the overwatch, but you do lose overwatch. You may wish to use the cp to turn instead to face a stealer attack you are expecting next from a different direction and that you have cp's to use again to set overwatch after.

Cp's are very useful for use with the assault cannon instead of overwatch fire as you will save your ammo for when you want to shoot instead. There is more reason than clearing jams to use cp's in the stealer turn.

eriochrome
23-09-2009, 15:39
Like turning you CC specialists to face the stealer so they do not go from 70% survival to like 20% to the attack.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-09-2009, 18:35
The overwatch shot is still a response to the movement and so the same marine cannot use the o/w and the cp in response to one stealer action, however i would say that you would be allowed to use a cp instead of the overwatch shot - the cp overriding the overwatch, but you do lose overwatch. You may wish to use the cp to turn instead to face a stealer attack you are expecting next from a different direction and that you have cp's to use again to set overwatch after.

Cp's are very useful for use with the assault cannon instead of overwatch fire as you will save your ammo for when you want to shoot instead. There is more reason than clearing jams to use cp's in the stealer turn.

I agree completely, although this is definately a grey area and a FAQ would be welcome.

reapy
24-09-2009, 14:30
I had some questions regarding using of command points.

I wish I had the rulebook on me to double check this, but anyway, ok so in the case of a marine getting close assaulted by a genestealer. Say the genestealer has 3 AP left to attack with.

Genestealer attacks, ends in draw. Now, can the marine player use a command point to make a stormbolter attack, from the guy who was just assaulted, at that same genestealer?

The genestealer may continue close assaulting until he runs out of AP? (just double checking that).

Also, is it pretty much the consensus that once one marine sees a genestealer action, a single action can be taken with command points on ANY squad member, not limited to the viewer of the action?

reapy
24-09-2009, 14:58
Sorry one more question to ask in regards to the flamer.

If you flame a room, and a genestealer wins the check (ie roll 1), if, on the genestealers turn, he takes no action with the guy in the middle of the flamed room...there is no additional fire check, and he can hang out there?

Also, if that guy is on the edge of the section being flamed, can he walk out and/or attack an adjacent figure with no additional flame check?

wilsongrahams
24-09-2009, 16:43
"Genestealer attacks, ends in draw. Now, can the marine player use a command point to make a stormbolter attack, from the guy who was just assaulted, at that same genestealer?"

Yes, nothing says he can't - but he can't shoot if he was on overwatch as he loses overwatch when he is close assaulted.

"If you flame a room, and a genestealer wins the check (ie roll 1), if, on the genestealers turn, he takes no action with the guy in the middle of the flamed room...there is no additional fire check, and he can hang out there?

Also, if that guy is on the edge of the section being flamed, can he walk out and/or attack an adjacent figure with no additional flame check?"

Absolutely right, he doesn't have to roll again - not as you would expect as he is still in the fire, but the rules say not to.

And yes, he can move away from the flames with no roll. It may be worth flaming again if one survives and is close to you. Just to kill the sod ...