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Warlord Nazgred
03-09-2009, 20:17
Well with the release of space hulk I thought to my self "how long will it be until space hulk is played competetivly" well the answer to that my friends is soon. Anyway this thread is going to be a place were you can discusss tactics with fellow broodlords and sergeants and mabye even discuss house rules to introduce other races and miniatures into the game

Enjoy

snottlebocket
04-09-2009, 10:47
Can space hulk even be played competetively? From what I've seen so far suggests that if both the space marine and the genestealer player try even just a little to play decently it mostly comes down to luck.

Either of the players would have to grossly misplace their models out of formation to actually give the other a tactical win rather than one that just relies on a lucky diceroll or badly timed jam.

Khaunshar
04-09-2009, 12:55
I have played the very first mission in the book twice now, and in both cases it wasnt abnormal dice luck that caused the Space Marines to lose, but tactical decisions and smart use of blips by the Genestealers.

Which actually brings me to the first thing I d love to discuss: Said first mission. Now, I am not sure if we are allowed to post pictures of the layout here, but those who got the box already, I am talking about the first one, aptly named Suicide mission.
I am a veteran tabletop player and also play a lot of cardboard games, plus a LOT of Blood Bowl, so I am not unfamiliar to tactical thinking, but that first mission is already a tough nut to crack.

My Stealer opponent went for very different setups in the two games, and we havent had abnormal dice luck in either game, nor frequent jams etc., but I just cant figure out how to proceed well.

My approach is as follows: My setup is Sergeant up front, then a Stormbolter/Powerfist Termi, then the Flamer, followed by the last two Storm Bolter/PFs.

I use the first SB/PF Termi to peel off and cover the southern hallway by opening/blasting both doors and going into Overwatch. This basically seals the southern approach by the Stealers, as they cannot get through the hallway in a single turn, and cannot gather that many bodies in the small room anyway.

I use the Sergeant to clear ahead, trying to rush as far as I can to the first split in the hallways. I then took the northern route, figuring that the sergeant stands the best chances in that area since its a bit more close quarters, have the Flamer marine follow him, and cover the main hallway with a terminator from the rear. Which leaves me with one terminator that doesnt really got much of a job to do, but works as backup because its pretty vital the overwatch terminator doesnt get killed.

However, at that point, the hatch just around the corner where my Sergeant went is usually the only thing keeping about half a dozen stealers away. Also, the Stealer usually has a blip in the last hallway towards the target room already, and the rest of the hallways begin filling up.

I just cant find a way to clear out the stealers once I get to the last crossing right before the mission room hallway. At that point, they are on all sides, the sergeant can take down 2, maybe 3, and I got really lucky on CP both rounds anyway. But if I clear out the hallway to the mission room, that leaves him getting killed by stealers from sides and back.

Do I make a crucial mistake? I never ran out of time, I had a lot of CPs, no bad luck on dice, but I am basically stuck in that tarpit of Stealers at the last crossing, just lacking the firepower and time to clear out a way for my flamer marine AND cover his back for one more round while he storms down the hallway, opens the door and burns the room. My Overwatch held just fine until I was swamped with stealers, and once the Sergeant goes down, my Flamer marine is a sitting duck.

Advice would be much appreciated.

commandergabriel
04-09-2009, 13:26
I haven't gotten my 3rd edition yet, but my key to winning this mission in 2nd ed. (which I'm glad made it back into 3rd) was to get 1 terminator down the main corridor for cover fire and then quickly get 2 terminators to the door (and open it) at the elbow (a storm bolter should be leading and the marine with flamer right behind him). Once this door is open I found that I had to move down that second corridor just as quickly as I had gotten to the door (at the elbow).

I always found that I had to sacrifice the lead terminator with storm bolter (in that second corridor) when I was in position to get the marine with the flamer into the intersection just outside the control room. Then turn and burn!

Its easier said than done and I've lost this mission with the marines more times than I can count. The funny thing for me is that as anxious as I get about this mission; I always find myself wanting to replay it. To me this mission (in second edition) was the most stressful.

I'm thinking it will be just as stressful in 3rd.

Khaunshar
04-09-2009, 13:43
Did the 2nd edition version have a door closing the mission room? Because the 3rd Ed. does, and that means you either have to turn+shoot with your stormbolter marine at the intersection, praying for a 6 to destroy the door, or you need at least one more round for the flamer marine to walk down the hallway, open and burn. Mind you, if the genestealer was sneaky enough to put a blip into the mission room, and then charges your flamer marine while he is going down the corridor, its pretty nasty.

Either way, you confirm my suspicions that I am basically on the right track, but I may have to use my superfluos/backup Stormbolter Termi in front and move with a total of 3 teminators, sergeant, stormbolter and flamer, along the elbow and to the mission room, while having my remaining two cover the south approach near my entrance, and the long hallway to the east. I ll try that next time.

twistinthunder
04-09-2009, 13:46
@khaunshar you know you can use the heavy flamer right.

what i do is(using the same setup as you) leave a guy in the first room on overwatch looking down that corridor.

lorenzo covers the hallway(on overwatch) just past the split in the road. keep moving him up 2 squares and put him on over watch each turn.

the remaining 2 stormbolter armed marines escort zael to the mission room. leaving the guy behind zael in the crossroads or near the crossroad (lorenzo should be moving his way there to cover.) the guy in front opens the door and moves in and out the way of zael.

if worst comes to worst flame the crossroads then the mission room the following turn. (because genestealer likely wont survive the flames.

suicide is all about giving zael a bodyguard right up until the door of the mission room.

Khaunshar
04-09-2009, 14:26
How do you set up the 2 bodyguards für Zael? Both in front, or one front one back?

I know I can use the flamer, I actually have done so to buy myself time both times, but when going the route of the smaller corridor, the only real target I can flame is either the intersection, which also blocks my route eventually, or the corridor directly behind it near the stealer spawn. If I do that, which I tried once, the stealer player rerouted the entire bunch towards lorenzos line of fire. I had not moved him up each turn, so he didnt get quite as many shots, but after taking down a rush of 4, he jammed on 5th, and the stealers flooded the intersection I had to pass through by crossing from the southeast spawn area past Lorenzos (now jammed) Overwatch.

Shooting with Zael has the big disadvantage of easily leaving him without guard as he doesnt have line of sight. Though, I guess I could just take the risk and barbecue one of my own marines if its really close to winning. Hmm....

Either way, thanks for the good ideas. I hope this shows that already the very first mission is quite a tactical challenge even with average rolls. Tomorrow we will start the entire campaign (fixed roles though, I get to play Blood Angels all the way through, then we write down total results, and reverse roles next month or so) so no more practicing for me I guess. I am already intimidated by some of the later missions, esp. those with the big Broodlord.

twistinthunder
04-09-2009, 17:59
1 front one back that way you can leave one behind and zael can still complete his mission and he doesnt get attacked by the front

dont worry only the last levels use the broodlord :) :(

rev
04-09-2009, 18:04
The trick with suicide mission is deciding in advance how to take the only L shaped corner piece. If you can take it as planned you're laughing.

I peel off and leave 1st man to cover the rear.

Next in line is Sgt who advances.

Flamer is behind, using cmnd points he flames either corner section or 3 way beyond to secure a safe turn.

Its then fairly academic - flame and move on until you can safely nest yourself in the corridor near the objective. The final 2 guys overwatch the long corridor.

A variation on this is to lead the flamer with the sgt around the L bend, but I've always had more luck being aggressive with the flamer.

If you worry to much about him, you'll loose. If you worry to little, you'll loose. Find the middle ground!

Rev

destroyerlord
05-09-2009, 04:24
Being aggressive with the flamer has the added problem of limited ammunition. He only gets 5 shots (sixth has to hit the control room), and if any stealers survive with the flamer taking the lead, expect to loose next turn.

mattjgilbert
05-09-2009, 09:10
rev has nailed it. You need to act fast and use the flamer to create a moving block he can walk behind while you clear out the other path.

ml2sjw
05-09-2009, 15:09
Old things to remember from back in the day.

For Marines

1.) The Rule of 6. Blips and stealers have 6APs that means if you marine is more than 6 squares away from any blip or stealer he is safe until the next turn. This is key when low on CPs and deciding who gets those vital last few shots.

2.) Keep moving! its tempting as a marine player to hunker down and rely on Over Watch in a lot of missions. Although there are some defensive missions where this can work for anything with an objective you need to keep moving otherwise the smart stealer player will simply hunker down and the swarm will reach unmanageable levels. Move and shoot is invaluable.

3.) When acting defensively Rooms are your Friends Corridors your Enemy. Set up defensive positions in Rooms so that you can have overlapping fields of fire to maximise the number of shots you get

4.) Some will disagree on this on but its a personal preference thing and it worked for Napoleon!. Have more than one line of attack. Stealers already have the numbers advantage and the boards are set up so that you generally cannot use choke points to even the score all of the time. When advancing if you have two possible routes to get to the objective. Use two teams and split up. This splits the forces of the stealer player which is always to your advantage.

5.) Remember you can blow doors up to ensure your LOS remains clear. May not always be the best plan though!

For Stealers.

Crustal vs layered defence. Again a personal preference thing but there are generally two ways to defend your hulk. 1.) Crustal. A wall of stealers right up against the marines with all reinforcements rushed straight into the fray. 2. Layered set up a series of choke points that the marines have to fight their way through. Both have their advantages an disadvantages.

2.) Keep to the edges of rooms to stop marines down the corridor shooting you.

3.) Don't be afraid to retreat to a better position.

Khaunshar
05-09-2009, 15:29
I think due to the more deadly Overwatch in 3rd Edition that corridors are not deathtraps anymore. As long as the Space Marine holds back 1 or 2 CPs to clear jammed Stormbolters, Overwatch is deadly due to the rapid fire rules (killing on 5s after the first shot).

At the same time, with most missions now having a somewhat decent melee marine (Lorenzo is quite good at taking out stealers) you now have one point man who makes advances a lot more safe. Its very tempting to just use Lorenzo (or depending on mission Mr. Hammer or Mr. Claws) to forge ahead, since splitting up leaves one group without a melee-capable marine, making them much slower (lots of overwatch needed, little risk-taking advisable)

On a sidenote, I heavily recommend blasting doors if in doubt. Its very rare to get much use out of a door as a Marine.

doghouse
05-09-2009, 15:37
I agree with the blasting doors, it opens up fire corridors that can hinder genestealer advances if at the end of a corridor on overwatch.

Wicksy
05-09-2009, 23:02
I've noticed that the tactics have changed slightly compared to 1st ed (which has been the only edition i played prior to 3rd). The sgts are far better in close combat. We were playing mission 3 and the sgt with the TH and SS took out 10 stealers before dieing. This allowed the other termies with the CAT to make it past that entry point and complete the mission. That was shear luck but even so the sgts seem a lot better in combat now allowing more flexibility. I think GW have made things fairer as the stealers had a massive advantage pre 3rd ed. It seems to be all about initial deployment of those squads. Getting them in the right order is key!

torn
05-09-2009, 23:32
the thunder hammer sergeant is pretty good, 1d6 +2 vs 2d6, he always drawn on a 4 and wins on a 5 or 6, unless, you get behind him :) i find on the bigger maps taking the risks to jump across intersections to get behind the combat powerhouses is a very very good idea. no marine can protect himself from 2 sides at once!

iluvatar18
06-09-2009, 02:51
Alright, so my tactic question actually comes from the other side of the spectrum.

In the second mission, how are the genestealers suppose to win? The space marines just need to survive, which with an assault cannon and a very long corridor on overwatch=total victory. And just cover his back with the thunder hammer or another overwatch marine.

So how is the Genestealer player suppose to win? because there are just too many long corridors without a way of hiding.

neXus6
07-09-2009, 07:30
I agree with the blasting doors, it opens up fire corridors that can hinder genestealer advances if at the end of a corridor on overwatch.

I'm actually getting the worrying feeling that shooting doors makes the game FAR to easy for the marine player.

While I would accept the Assault Cannon and Chainfist being able to take out doors, simple Storm Bolters shots is pushing it a bit.

The doors are supposed to be there to reduce line of sight, it doesn't work very well if you can just remove it with 1 or 2 AP.

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 07:47
Sometimes, the 'stealer just needs to overwhelm the Marine player - fill that corridor with 'stealers, and he'll jam eventually. :) Remember, in most missions, you're not restricted to a limited blip count. Even if you can't get to the Marine, you're forcing extra decisions on him during his turn - does he ignore them and carry on to the objective, or does he stay there on overwatch, slowing his advance?

Mojaco
07-09-2009, 09:05
Alright, so my tactic question actually comes from the other side of the spectrum.

In the second mission, how are the genestealers suppose to win? The space marines just need to survive, which with an assault cannon and a very long corridor on overwatch=total victory. And just cover his back with the thunder hammer or another overwatch marine.

So how is the Genestealer player suppose to win? because there are just too many long corridors without a way of hiding.
Simple; if the marines player just sits there on overwatch, don't attack. He might think it's lame, but so is sitting on overwatch 24/7. Either side will have to work for a victory, not just sit it out while genestealer bodies throw themselves at the terminator guns.

This mission has a good chance of becoming a stalemate if either player refuses to take initiative.

Khaunshar
07-09-2009, 12:05
If the Space Marine hoards his CP, rushing will not work either. However, Sergeants are not unbeatable, and they have to chose whether they go for ranged overwatch or melee. Charging the Assault Cannon in Overwatch is only useful though if you think you can deplete its ammo, which probably isnt the case.

Kebabyuchenko
07-09-2009, 13:06
I've always found that playing as Marines, never try to change or alter your original plan. No matter how flawed it may be, I always lose most of my guys trying to re-arrange a plan.

Maybe the dice-gods hatred of me is a factor as well though.

Kebabyuchenko xxx

fiore hellheart
07-09-2009, 16:02
rushing is easy, simply move one forward a space or two and then stop beffore he gets blasted and move lots up behind him, he blocks line of sight so the marine cant shoot and next turn you will have plenty of stealers to use. works well running from room to room.

quatrofromageo
07-09-2009, 16:24
There's nothing funnier than a Genestealer with a door switch :D

Kahadras
07-09-2009, 17:20
Well I played my first couple of game yeasterday. The first was Suicide Mission with me as the Space Marines. I'd watched a cou[pld of games being played and had come up with the best strategy that I could think of. I started with a stormbolter armed Terminator, then the Sergeant followed by the two remaining stormbolter Terminators and finaly the flamer. I moves the first Terminator up and then right to cover the closest spawn points. My Sergeant pushed up around the L section while another Marine covered the corridor. I then pushed up to the crossroad while my final storm bolter armed Terminator pushed up to support the Sergeant.

My opponant did try a bit of sneaky stuff but was slightly hobbled by not getting enough Genestealers out onto the table. He did manage to pull a Terminator down (due to bad luck on my part, 4 chances at sustained fire and not a single 5 or 6) but I quickly moved to cover the gap in my defences and I was never really in any danger of losing the mission.

The second game I played was Exterminate with me as the Genestealers. This mission looked nails for the Tyranids on paper and I got beaten pretty easily. I managed to pull down two stormbolter armed Terminators but my opponant managed to block off one of my spawn points and then placed the Assault cannon Terminator and Thunderhammer Sergeant in the middle of the board which gave me no chance to flank him. I just simply got chewed up by assault cannon fire and then the remaining few 'stealers were mashed in close combat.

Kahadras

primarch
08-09-2009, 00:34
Alright, so my tactic question actually comes from the other side of the spectrum.

In the second mission, how are the genestealers suppose to win? The space marines just need to survive, which with an assault cannon and a very long corridor on overwatch=total victory. And just cover his back with the thunder hammer or another overwatch marine.

So how is the Genestealer player suppose to win? because there are just too many long corridors without a way of hiding.

Hi!

Since you have a finite amount of blips for this game, delay attacking for as long as the marine player permits. If he sits back, let him. Start filling as much of the corridors out of their line of sight with genestealers.

Just be careful that the marine player doesn't slowly advance on you to close off the access points.

Once you can muster a dozen genestealers in certain areas (the northeastern part is probably the best), just rush him. Note even if you don't reach him, its okay, just pack as many in a straight line that you can.

Avoid the zone of fire that has the assault cannon terminator, concentrate on the regular ones armed with storm bolters, one at a time.

Quite frankly I would not even bother attacking until I had all the genestealer models on the table, converted, and ready to go, with more blips behind.

If you attack piecemeal, your toast and can never win. The only chance the genestealer has in this scenario is to must an overwhelming force and then attack specific points.

Primarch

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 11:42
I played mission 2 against myself (learnign the game) and to be honest the genestealers won pretty easily. All I had left was the assault cannon terminator at the south entry points stopping stealers entering. Everyone else had been killed.

I had him on overwatch, but he only had 13 shots left, and I had 23 genestealers (including the numbers from blips) ready to come from the north. So as it was late I ended it there.

I think my mistake was splitting my marines too much and trying to block both entry points as soon as possible. The genestealers kept managing to get behind my men and assault them. Its hard to be too tactical playing yourself though - as you know what the otehr side is gonna do in their turn.

torn
08-09-2009, 12:14
i played this as the stealers and thought i had won. the trick i found was to jump accross corridors, allowing the marines 1 overwatch shot but when you get through your a threat to the back. I did lose, despite taking down 4 marines, because the last was at the end of a long corridor with no way behind and all i could do was run down it. He also had all the CP's to unblock jams. I got close but never close enough. Mission III is much more fun and tactical for both sides.

Mojaco
08-09-2009, 12:29
Yep, that final marine is always a b*tch with full CP's juicing him up.