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doghouse
05-09-2009, 18:32
I've got to wait till monday before I can get my hands on my copy but is the hulk still called the "Sin of Damnation" or is it something else?
I recall reading that it was something to do the original plotline but set after the Blood Angels were decimated.
Any pointers would be a massive help. :)

CRasterImage
05-09-2009, 18:57
Yup. It is still named that. Apparently it was found a long time ago and the first Blood Angels attempt to take it failed and many Astartes died.

One of the Sergeants (Lorenzo?) was actually a survivor from the first attempt.

doghouse
05-09-2009, 19:04
Nice one, thanks mate. I thought that was the case but wanted to be sure.

I think back in first ed it was something ridiculus like 950 casualties in the first attempt.

AndrewGPaul
06-09-2009, 10:36
Actually, the Sin Of Damnation is the Hulk featured in the game. The previous one, where 950 Blood Angels died, is unnamed, and not the Sin Of Damnation, IIRC.

AFnord
06-09-2009, 20:07
But the loss of 950 marines is still official (it's in the fluff in the new mission book).

AndrewGPaul
06-09-2009, 23:24
1st ed never explicitly mentioned the 950 casualties, IIRC. The mission report on page 1 of the rulebook only mentions 88 casualties out of 100 in the 1st Company.

shadow hunter
07-09-2009, 11:36
I read the 950 casualties in the new book. Seemed extremely high to me. I'm not a BA player (but brother is) and couldn't help but think it would surely have meant the end of a chapter.

To rebuild would surely take a very long time, and that's assuming that enough geneseed was recovered, and that there were still Apothecaries skilled enough to use it.

And I thought Dante was a 1000 years old and one of the greatest chapter masters of recent times..... doesn't sound like he's doing that great a job.

I think a death toll nearer 500 would have made more sense. From other backgrounds I've read, I cant believe a chapter down to 50 men wouldn't just be blended into other chapters, rather than left to rebuild.

Scriboergosum
07-09-2009, 12:33
The assault that decimated the chapter was around a thousand years ago. Dante might be tough, but I don't think he was leading the chapter in his infancy.
The fluff in the new edition names the commander, someone called Sangallo. Never heard of him before, and maybe this is why.

Concerning the casualties you should read the Index Astartes article about the Crimson Fists. After the Rynn's World incident, they were reduced to less than a company of marines, much like the Blood Angels.
It is said that having this few marines left (< 100) gives the chapter a 20-25 % chance of survival, but the Crimson Fists are saved by their superior gene-seed. We can probably assume the same fact saved the Blood Angels.
Finally, it is said that the Crimson Fists won't have numbers anywhere near full strength for many decades. Seeing as how the Blood Angels where decimated a thousand years ago, they'd probably be just fine by now.

The story fits perfectly, though it is something of a blow to the pride of the Blood Angels that they were beaten that thoroughly. At least it was a freak accident that destroyed the Crimson Fists, the Blood Angels just plain messed up.

KroSha
07-09-2009, 12:38
Always loved that story. What a way to use a vortex missile :D

snottlebocket
07-09-2009, 12:58
I think a death toll nearer 500 would have made more sense. From other backgrounds I've read, I cant believe a chapter down to 50 men wouldn't just be blended into other chapters, rather than left to rebuild.

Marine chapter's aren't like the guard where decimated companies get reabsorbed. Chapters go extinct when they fail.

shadow hunter
07-09-2009, 13:01
I knew there was a problem with crimson fists numbers too, but dont know the story. I'm not a marine fan to be honest.

Fair enough what you say. Although I was certain the article I read stated that Dante has been chapter master for over a thousand years, and not just that he is a thousand years old. I could be mistaken though, it was a long time ago that I read that article (8 years maybe)

I forgot they had a reputation for pride and being perfect. That is certainly a big black stain to their honour.

Kebabyuchenko
07-09-2009, 13:02
Wasn't it back in the days of Space Marine Legions? If so, then 950 wouldn't be too many to lose...

Should have sent the Deathwing in.

Kebabyuchenko xxx

grimcrazy
07-09-2009, 13:11
It was in WD 113 and I think back then they hadn't worked out the background about chapter numbers.

The background is odd and the terminators looked weird. Might be able to scan it.

pookie
07-09-2009, 13:19
And I thought Dante was a 1000 years old and one of the greatest chapter masters of recent times..... doesn't sound like he's doing that great a job.



hes lead them for over 1100 years ( or his over 1100 years old, i tend to get confused with this one ), this happend to the chapter 1500 years ago, ergo wasnt his fault, and may explain why he was made Chapter Master...


Wasn't it back in the days of Space Marine Legions? If so, then 950 wouldn't be too many to lose...

Should have sent the Deathwing in.

Kebabyuchenko xxx

no, the Legions exhisted 10.000 years ago, so it was mucm much after then.

shadow hunter
07-09-2009, 13:22
Sorry when I wrote that I actually meant led them for over 1000 years. That's always the impression I got anyway - so must have read sommet like it somewhere.

Didn't realise this happened over 1500years ago though. I must have missed that part.

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 13:26
It happened 1,003 years ago, according to the mission book; 996.M40

Scriboergosum
07-09-2009, 13:28
Although I was certain the article I read stated that Dante has been chapter master for over a thousand years, and not just that he is a thousand years old. I could be mistaken though, it was a long time ago that I read that article (8 years maybe)

I'm wrong and you're right, actually. Codex: Blood Angels says the following about Dante:

"Commander Dante is one of the most experienced and able Space Marine Chapter Masters and has ruled over the Blood Angels for over a thousand years"

Somewhat embarrasing for me, I play BA :) Haven't played them for a long time, though, just enjoying Orks too much. That's my excuse! Orks don't like da historee! Too many fings ta rememba!

Anyway, there is something of a problem with the timeline there, as the Sangallo disaster happened in 996.M40 and "current" time in WH40K is just around the final years of M41, right?

If Dante was Chapter Master back then and "The Chapter responded in full" as the SH fluff says, surely he would have been there?
Just another mistake in the 40K background, I suppose. Maybe the SH fluff was written by Black Library authors ;)

neXus6
07-09-2009, 13:33
Yep seems the background doesn't match up...or does it...
:p

Dante is apparantly about 1300 years old, and has lead the chapter for "over 1000 years" according to his description on the GW site.

I suppose it's possible that Dante was a survivor and took over immediatly after this guy got the Chapter annihilated that would be "over 1000 years."

pookie
07-09-2009, 13:39
It happened 1,003 years ago, according to the mission book; 996.M40

what he said, i hate GW dates, in my head i had 650M40 - but 650's the Sgts age aint it. doh!

Scriboergosum
07-09-2009, 13:43
Yep seems the background doesn't match up...or does it...
:p

Dante is apparantly about 1300 years old, and has lead the chapter for "over 1000 years" according to his description on the GW site.

I suppose it's possible that Dante was a survivor and took over immediatly after this guy got the Chapter annihilated that would be "over 1000 years."

Hah! :D

You are technically correct, the best kind of correct!

Everything falls into place hehe :)

Grimmeth
07-09-2009, 15:55
I do wonder if, being a first founding chapter it would be too much of a blow to the Imperium if the BA were lost at this point, so maybe successor chapters helped with the recruitment?

torn
07-09-2009, 20:42
successor chapters in theory have the same gene seed as the chapters hey succeeded, so i suppose there is no reason why the blood angels couldn't be helped by their successors. And as the founding chapter im sure the blood angels are revered in such a way by their successors that they wouldn't want them to die out.

Im not that big in space marine stuff though so i have no idea if a gene seed gets weaker the further down the pyramid it gets.

Scriboergosum
07-09-2009, 22:05
I do wonder if, being a first founding chapter it would be too much of a blow to the Imperium if the BA were lost at this point, so maybe successor chapters helped with the recruitment?

I think you're right about the Imperium not wanting the BA to disappear, but if we can trust the Index Astartes article on the Crimson Fists I referenced in an earlier post, it is apparently only a matter of decades, not even centuries, before a chapter as decimated as the BA and the CF have been, is back at something close to full strength.

The BA might have recieved help from successor chapters, but it doesn't seem at all necessary for them to have been able to recover fully in 1000 years.

blackbabyjesus
07-09-2009, 22:41
The original Blood Angels boarding action which cost the chapter 950 marines was six hundred years ago, says so under the Sergeant Lorenzo heading on page 42 of the 3rd edition Mission Book.

Ergo, Dante MUST have been in charge at the time and therefore MUST have been one of the 50 survivors.

torn
07-09-2009, 22:57
although chapter master isnt counted among the codex of 1000 . . . 10 companies of 10 squads of 10 marines = 1000.

Dante probably was in charge, and if anything he probably went in with the terminators at the end to help the retreat of the power armoured marines. If anyone could survive it would be him.

AndrewGPaul
07-09-2009, 23:27
The original Blood Angels boarding action which cost the chapter 950 marines was six hundred years ago, says so under the Sergeant Lorenzo heading on page 42 of the 3rd edition Mission Book.

Ergo, Dante MUST have been in charge at the time and therefore MUST have been one of the 50 survivors.

The mission book also states this disaster happened in 996.M40. It's 600 years before the events of the Mission book, not 600 years before the "present".

burning crome
07-09-2009, 23:28
After reading the new mission book today it doesn’t say the 950 marines died just that just over fifty got out alive. So even a full deployment might not have been every marine they had. Add to that that it talks about squads being rescued by brave gunship crews (more marines).

Scriboergosum
07-09-2009, 23:43
The original Blood Angels boarding action which cost the chapter 950 marines was six hundred years ago, says so under the Sergeant Lorenzo heading on page 42 of the 3rd edition Mission Book.

Ergo, Dante MUST have been in charge at the time and therefore MUST have been one of the 50 survivors.

This is a fluff discussion, so it's almost bound to be riddled with errors, conflicting stories and such, but here goes:

I assume you're saying that since Dante has been Chapter Master for over 1000 years (which is as close to a fact as you're going to get with fluff), he was most definately Chapter Master 650 years ago, and as such in charge of the BA at the time of the disastrous mission.
This assumes that "current" time is at the very end of M41, something like 999.M41, which is where time seems to have "stopped" in the 40k universe, most new fluff we're given in codices and rulebooks seems to stem from this point in time.
It also assumes that the Space Hulk Mission Book uses this version of current time, ie. that the new boarding action is taking place near the very end of M41.

There's a problem with that statement, however. The boarding action that cost 950 casualties was in 996.M40, p. 3 of the Mission Book tells us this quite clearly. That the action is later said to be 650 years ago means that the second boarding action, which Space Hulk 3. ed revolves around, happens around 646.M41, not that the first was around 350.M41 (where Dante was mos definately Chapter Master).

The game we're playing isn't taking place in the "current" 40k universe, it's some 350 years in the past. The disastrous boarding action was probably not undertaken during Dantes reign, otherwise he would almost definately have been mentioned, right? Even if he didn't lead the action, which is extremely unlikely given the entire chapter took part in it, he would have been mentioned as the failure would reflect very badly upon him.

Unless we're dealing with a plot hole in the history of the Blooad Angels, I'm with neXus6 on this one. This guy, Commander Sangallo, was Chapter Master at the time of the first boarding, got the Chapter almost completely wiped out, and was replaced by Dante, either because he died himself or because he left/got kicked out.

In any case I don't think Dante would be called one the most able Chapter Masters if he got 95 % of his Chapter killed in one go.

Edit: burning crome, it does say that, though not in the most direct way. Look at p. 6 in the Mission Book, we get an excerpt from Captain Raphaels log. The second entry we see contains the words: "The Blood Angels have returned. We avenge nine hundred-and-fifty dead. Time alone does not heal our wounds."

Assuming this Captain Raphael isn't full of it, they did lose 950 marines.

The Phazer
08-09-2009, 00:14
What Scriboergosum said. We also know it's a reasonable period before 941.M41 as that's when Calistarius becomes Mephiston.

Phazer

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 09:09
Well, Scriboergosum explains quite well why Dante was not chapter master then. I hadn't looked closely at the dates given to be honest and had assumed the current edition was based in the current time line.

Has anything ever been wrote how/why Dante took over as chapter master? I dont know BA history very well. It would certainly be a good addition to the background as how he became the successor to the previous chapter master. And would also add reason to him being a succesful chapter master (rebuilt chapter to full strength, and still has success on battlefields).

grimcrazy
08-09-2009, 09:22
GW was doing decimated chapter story themes at the time.

So why are Blood Angels back to strength and Scythes of the Emperor are still mopeing around with so few numbers?

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 09:28
Rubbish IVF treatment?

KroSha
08-09-2009, 09:53
Geneseed stocks. As an original Legion, the Adeptus Terra will have large stocks of the BA geneseed. Every chapter is required to submit geneseed for storage, testing and to help new Foundings. In addition, the fact that the BAs have a known stable mutation; the Red Thirst, means that their stock will be studied closer and is less likely to be used for Foundings. So there is enough to quickly grow the Chapter back to strength, assuming sufficient new recruits.

Even going the slow way, like the Scythes have, each recruit new recruit will have replaced himself and grow the Chapter after only 15 years service. The biggest issue is where recruits don't survive long enough to replicate the geneseed, but even then they can be grown in slaves.

blackbabyjesus
08-09-2009, 10:59
This assumes that "current" time is at the very end of M41, something like 999.M41, which is where time seems to have "stopped" in the 40k universe, most new fluff we're given in codices and rulebooks seems to stem from this point in time.
It also assumes that the Space Hulk Mission Book uses this version of current time, ie. that the new boarding action is taking place near the very end of M41.

There's a problem with that statement, however. The boarding action that cost 950 casualties was in 996.M40, p. 3 of the Mission Book tells us this quite clearly. That the action is later said to be 650 years ago means that the second boarding action, which Space Hulk 3. ed revolves around, happens around 646.M41, not that the first was around 350.M41 (where Dante was mos definately Chapter Master).


Since you're working on an assumption, and a pretty bold one, that 'current' fictional time is 999.M41 everything you've said there is pretty much moot, you've no accurate point of reference to state the current WH40k date at all. This in mind, I could counter argue, that the most recent fluff to be published (Space Hulk 3rd Edition) points to 646.M41 being the current date.

Regardless of what I've said previously, it's as close to 'fact' as could be that Dante has been chapter master for over 1,000 years, so even if it is 'now' 999.M41, that means Dante is still likely to have been chapter master in 996.M40 (only 1003 years previous). Though perhaps Dante was the successor to Commander Sangallo and has been chapter master for 1003 years.

It's an argument that could go either way for a very, very long time and since neither of us have any kind of conclusive evidence either way it'd probably never end.

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 11:23
Arguements that never end? Sounds like most of the rules questions on warseer.

Which ever way it ends up going I think that Dante should be wrote in to have took over at some point after that dreadful mission. I'm not a blood angel fan (or marine really) but think if he's supposed to have a good reputation, this should not be something that happened during his command.

1003 years is over a thousand, and would not alter the current history on the chapter, Dante or space hulk.

Scriboergosum
08-09-2009, 13:06
Since you're working on an assumption, and a pretty bold one, that 'current' fictional time is 999.M41 everything you've said there is pretty much moot, you've no accurate point of reference to state the current WH40k date at all. This in mind, I could counter argue, that the most recent fluff to be published (Space Hulk 3rd Edition) points to 646.M41 being the current date.

Regardless of what I've said previously, it's as close to 'fact' as could be that Dante has been chapter master for over 1,000 years, so even if it is 'now' 999.M41, that means Dante is still likely to have been chapter master in 996.M40 (only 1003 years previous). Though perhaps Dante was the successor to Commander Sangallo and has been chapter master for 1003 years.

It's an argument that could go either way for a very, very long time and since neither of us have any kind of conclusive evidence either way it'd probably never end.

Of course it's moot, it's fluff! I stated as much in beginning of the post you quoted.

Saying that "current" 40k time is now 646.M41 because that's where the latest fluff is from is only going to make the concept of a "current" time useless, as there's released new stories, new fluff many times each month, and lots of these releases tell stories that aren't from around the end of M41. Just look at the Ravenor books. After going through some sort of portal he encounters a strange, as yet unknown, insect-like species that is described in a way that makes it only too clear that he's met the Tyranids. These stories, and therefore also the Eisenhorn novels take place long before late M41.

That being said, the concept of a "current" 40k time might be useless in itself, but when I refer to it the way I do, it's because the fluff being given to us in context of actual new releases for the 40k game (ie. codices and rule books) seems to be written with this version of present time in mind.

I disagree with your assertion that Dante most definately was Chapter Master back then. If he was and the whole Chapter went into the Hulk, why wasn't he in charge?
If he was Chapter Master at the time and allowed someone else to lead the entire Chapter into a meat grinder that squished most of them, why is he so revered?
Both of the above can be refuted in some convoluted way if you really want to, as can all fluff statements, but my point is this:
If we ever find a reliable information on exactly when Dante was made Chapter Master and we from this can see that he must have been Chapter Master at the time of Sangallos mission, I'm sure GW will either retcon it or pretend it isn't true.
Dante is, as most other Chapter Masters of the original Legions are, completely immaculate. I doubt they intended for this huge failure to be on his shoulders.

Anyway, discussing fluff like this is of course completely pointless. There's no way of proving anything, and even the most solid cases can simply be dismissed as propaganda from some source. This is actually one of the things I like about 40k fluff, it's often written in a very subjective way that makes wonder if you're not actually being lied to. The events you're reading about didn't turn out the way you're told, but in order to protect themselves and their honour, the ones doing the writing (most of Imperials, most stories are told from their perspective) change the facts and the outcome to cover their own short comings.
Much like what totalitarian systems do in the real world, who can forget the Iraqi information minister during the 2003 invasion?

"There are no american tanks in Baghdad!" *huge explosion* *M1 Abrams tanks roll by in the background*

Now that guy was funny :D

Edit: After re-reading your post, it occurs to me you didn't actually say you were sure Dante was CM at the time, only that it seems likely. Given the dates we're working with, I'll agree with that statement. Still don't think he was the CM, the reasons still being the ones I've outlined above.
Always great to find that you've responded completely inaccurately to someones post :) I will go somewhere, learn to read again.

pookie
08-09-2009, 15:02
GW was doing decimated chapter story themes at the time.

So why are Blood Angels back to strength and Scythes of the Emperor are still mopeing around with so few numbers?

beacsue the BA will have been able to recover some GS from the SH whilst both the Lamentors and Sythes had there Marines eaten by Nids.

Each Marine can create two Marines, it wouldnt take too long for 50 Marines and lets say 50 Bodies to be used to recreate 150 Marines, within 25 Years, those can double to 300, then again 15 years and it doubles etc etc.

**edit**
those nay sayers who think Dante was chapter master, so he was a CM at less than 100 Years old? i dont think so, as for what year we are in in the Time line, its FACT that we are in 999.M41, if we were not, why have fluff wrote at that date????

come on, be real, its a sad fact that the BA were almost wiped out, but they have grown since and recovered, get over it, its know part of GW History.

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 15:07
In the original space hulk, did they succeed then? What actually happened at the end? Was the hulk cleansed, allowing them to collect the dead? Was it destroyed when casualties got too high?

I dont know the original story, other than they made a bit of a boo-boo.

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 15:12
pookie - 08-09-2009, 16:02

**edit**
those nay sayers who think Dante was chapter master, so he was a CM at less than 100 Years old? i dont think so,

Not sure what you mean, I've not seen anything about Dante's actual age - only that he has lead the BA for over 1000years (therefore he must be much older) so he would definantly have been around at the time of the first incident. I dont agree he would have been a chapter master at the time simply because he is supposedly one of their greatest chapter masters. (which can happen. Incident was 1003 years ago - so he could have took control over the decimated chapter immediatly afterwards).

pookie
08-09-2009, 15:17
In the original space hulk, did they succeed then? What actually happened at the end? Was the hulk cleansed, allowing them to collect the dead? Was it destroyed when casualties got too high?

I dont know the original story, other than they made a bit of a boo-boo.

do you mean 1st Ed Sh - IIRC it wasnt a named hulk then, theres other threads about this tho, so might want to look for them.


Not sure what you mean, I've not seen anything about Dante's actual age - only that he has lead the BA for over 1000years (therefore he must be much older) so he would definantly have been around at the time of the first incident. I dont agree he would have been a chapter master at the time simply because he is supposedly one of their greatest chapter masters. (which can happen. Incident was 1003 years ago - so he could have took control over the decimated chapter immediatly afterwards).

check out post 17 - he has led them for over a 1000 years, but in my mind, if he was leading them at the time of this Incedent ( which according to SH info he wasnt, there was a diffrent named CM ) then he would have had to have been a fairly young Chapter Master.

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 15:21
But there's nothing I've seen to say how old he was when he took over as chapter master. He could have succeeded the previous failed/dead Chapter Master after the first space hulk incident at the age of 300 (for example) and has now led them for over 1000 years (since it is 1003 years later - according to others workings out).

I dont see why you think he was only 100. Unless it mentions how old he is somewhere. I dont know blood angel history that well.

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 15:27
OK - according to these two posts


AndrewGPaul - 07-09-2009, 14:26
It happened 1,003 years ago, according to the mission book; 996.M40



neXus6 - 07-09-2009, 14:33
Yep seems the background doesn't match up...or does it...


Dante is apparantly about 1300 years old, and has lead the chapter for "over 1000 years" according to his description on the GW site.

I suppose it's possible that Dante was a survivor and took over immediatly after this guy got the Chapter annihilated that would be "over 1000 years."


He is 1300 years old (ish) and has led them for over 1000years. So as I said earlier (wild guess) he was approximately 300 years old when he became chapter master (and about the at the time of the first space hulk incident)

Or at least that is how I am reading it.

I'm not sure on space marine background - but 300 years seems ok to become a chapter master - especially if theres only 49 other blokes to beat.

KroSha
08-09-2009, 15:49
300 is a little young for Chapter Master. Captain, OK. Even then, there would normally be a pool of other Veterans ready to take on more of a leadership role. Being made Master at a relatively young age is more plausible if there are no other Veterans to contest with.

pookie
08-09-2009, 15:53
OK - according to these two posts





He is 1300 years old (ish) and has led them for over 1000years. So as I said earlier (wild guess) he was approximately 300 years old when he became chapter master (and about the at the time of the first space hulk incident)

Or at least that is how I am reading it.

I'm not sure on space marine background - but 300 years seems ok to become a chapter master - especially if theres only 49 other blokes to beat.

no where does it say he is 1300 years old, the most you will get is over 1100, he could be 1110, find the 1300 and i'l go with that age, but it isnt stated anywhere, thats a number pulled out of a hat imo.

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 15:55
With only around another 50 marines, I dont see it being too much of a strecth for him to have become chapter master - especially if all the veterans (or was it 1st company - i cant remember what i read now) were lost in the boarding actions in the first space hulk.

It could be that the chapter was left with mostly novices (would they send scouts in on boarding actions like that) techmarines, apothecaries, and the odd captain/crew left onboard any orbiting battle barges.

grimcrazy
08-09-2009, 16:06
how did they loose so many men fighting genestealers!!

at least the Scythes got destroyed when a entire Hive Fleet attacked their planet

(I know I'm taking this too seriosly :))

shadow hunter
08-09-2009, 16:06
I was taking someone else post stating him to be 1300 years old. I dont know the history- so took that post as a basis.

If indeed nothing states he is 1300 - but does state he is older than 1100 years, then I dont see the problem. GW can decide his age at any point to make it believable. If its a problem that he could become a chapter master at 100 years old or 300 years old or 233 years old, then all we have to do is assume he is older.

With no definitive answer on his age - its not a problem. He has lead the chapter for over 1000 years. He became chapter master (we assume) after the 1st space hulk. We dont know how old he was at that point. There's no problem.

pookie
08-09-2009, 16:14
how did they loose so many men fighting genestealers!!

at least the Scythes got destroyed when a entire Hive Fleet attacked their planet

(I know I'm taking this too seriosly :))

the hive fleet didnt, the whole chapter dropped into a war zone.


I was taking someone else post stating him to be 1300 years old. I dont know the history- so took that post as a basis.

If indeed nothing states he is 1300 - but does state he is older than 1100 years, then I dont see the problem. GW can decide his age at any point to make it believable. If its a problem that he could become a chapter master at 100 years old or 300 years old or 233 years old, then all we have to do is assume he is older.

With no definitive answer on his age - its not a problem. He has lead the chapter for over 1000 years. He became chapter master (we assume) after the 1st space hulk. We dont know how old he was at that point. There's no problem.

oh i know you did, but just wanted to point out its not stated anywhere that he anything other than 1100 years old.

see this thread were this conversations already happened/ing:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=215339&page=11

neXus6
08-09-2009, 16:44
Well from my delvings into the subject it appears that in the 2nd edition Angels of Death Codex there is one location where it states that he has ruled the chapter for over 1100 years, and another where it states that he is over 1100 years old.

So it can go either way.

Seems Dante's background was already a mess long before this edition of Space Hulk.
:D

AndrewGPaul
08-09-2009, 23:01
Well from my delvings into the subject it appears that in the 2nd edition Angels of Death Codex there is one location where it states that he has ruled the chapter for over 1100 years, and another where it states that he is over 1100 years old.

So it can go either way.
:D

Of course, those two statements are not contradictory. :)

neXus6
09-09-2009, 03:32
True, just makes his age variable between about 1150 and 1500ish.
:D

KroSha
09-09-2009, 11:44
how did they loose so many men fighting genestealers!!

The new books sates that they killed approx 12,000 stealer. That's a lot of bugs, and a 12:1 ratio in SH is pretty good.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 13:24
People seemed to have missed something here. Having entered all Blood Angels information into a timeline, read the new novel and all codexes since angels of death 15 years ago, it's pretty easy to figure out.

As stated, Commander Sangallo was responsible for the massacre where 950 blood angels died. However, nowhere does it state that he was Chapter Master. Dante does hold the rank of Commander too but so does the Commander of the Fleet, Ordnance, Recruits etc - Original codex calls them commanders, not masters. Also it is possible to take the timelines for quotes from the second edition space hulk and use them too. That then has Commander Borgia in charge for the sin of Damnation campaign, AND Captain Michaelus Raphael - assume Borgia is on the strike cruiser still and just not actually mentioned in the new fluff.

You can also have the Sergeant Tycho and Sergeant Lorenzo from the first two campaigns in the second edition as the same guy in the third edition - and ignore the names of sergeants changing for each squad in second ed. Using the timeline you will then see that sergeant tycho has plenty of time to get to armageddon in time to be promoted to captain etc. That is also the time that Callistarius becomes Mephiston. Armageddon happens after the third campaign in second edition though.

The Blood Angels massacre would have happened when Dante had been in command around 100 years. This doesn't mean he was even there though as he may have still been on Ball etc and left the chapter in command of this Sangallo. Also the fighting strength of a chapter is 1000 marines but does not include support personel, death company, recruits in sarcophogai etc.

Some comments also seem to imply that Lorenzo did not escape the Sin of Damnation alive - however he does, right after Calistarius, and assumedly so do a lot of other terminators back at the main defensive perimeter.

Also note that in quotes in the second ed mission book, one statement borgia makes is post dated - as he is looking back on the campaign - 'in the rashness of his youth' he states so he also survives for a long time after.

Any questions feel free to ask. Having named all my captain models and commanders based on history etc it is easier for me to remember as I have the models to visualize.

Scriboergosum
09-09-2009, 14:18
The Blood Angels massacre would have happened when Dante had been in command around 100 years. This doesn't mean he was even there though as he may have still been on Ball etc and left the chapter in command of this Sangallo. Also the fighting strength of a chapter is 1000 marines but does not include support personel, death company, recruits in sarcophogai etc.

I've read that Dante has ruled the Blood Angels for 1100 years, but always from unofficial sources, so to speak. Lexicanum gives this information, for example.

All the sources I have seen concerning Dante that could be regarded as 40k canon say otherwise. The current Codex: Blood Angels, the information given in which must be considered "true", says two things about him:

p. 3: "... the current Commander of the Chapter, Dante, was born nearly 1,100 years ago."

and

p. 6: "Commander Dante is one of the most experienced and able Space Marine Chapter Masters and has ruled over the Blood Angels for over a thousand years."

If we take this to be the truth about Dante, here's my take on how his story unfolded (this has been presented earlier in the thread by myself and others, but no matter):

If Dante is only around 1,100 years old, he must have been around 100 years at the time of Sangallo's mission, and as such it seems most likely that he was not Chapter Master back then. A Chapter Master is supposed to be experienced, one would think, having earned the title through centuries of service and combat.
Who the Chapter Master was is unclear, but seeing as how the whole Chapter went to war all together, smart money is on the Chapter Master being mission commander, meaning Sangallo was probably Chapter Master at the time. In any case it most likely was not Dante, he was only 100 years of age at the time of the mission. The mission that almost destroyed the Blood Angels.

However, we also know that he has actually been Chapter Master for over 1,000 years, so he was around 100 at the time he was made Chapter Master. This seems to be a very convenient coincidence, probably because it isn't a coincidence at all.

The normal expectations for a Chapter Master (wise, grizzled, old veteran) are turned upside down after the decimation of the Chapter. With only 50 marines left to choose from, they have to make do with what they've got. They choose Dante for reasons unknown, but it seems to have been a good choice.

Sangallo messes up, he either dies in the fighting or steps down and the very young, but very noble Dante takes up the mantle.

If you have canon quotes saying Dante has ruled for 1,100 years, I'd love to see them, but the current version of BA fluff is different and, luckily, fits with SH fluff. Only just, mind you, as the whole "has ruled for over 1,000 years" is actually 1,003 years, but technically it is correct. And that's the best kind of correct :)

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 15:30
My source is the original codex - angels of death. Page 92, his special character page states 'Commander Dante is one of the most experienced and able Space Marine Commanders. In no small part this is due to the quite extraordinary longevity of the Blood Angels, which has meant that he has ruled the Chapter for over 1,100 years! ...etc' Part of this comment in particular the 'ruled' part is repeated in the 'eavy metal pages by the painted mini. The third ed codex does however state is over 1100 years old, but that is not contradictory and he must be over that if he has ruled for that length of time.

It does only state OVER 1100 years old and not IS 1100 years old though, otherwise I would agree that he is unlikely to have been master at that time. There is no official birth date or exact age though.

I have always used the original codex as the original canon source, which in my mind doesn't necesarily contradict newer fluff. As my previous thread stated, I believe more than one marine may hold the rank of commander. The codex says so alongside the force organisation chart. 'Although the codex describes a number of ranks and responsibilities within the headquarters staff only a very few of these officewrs actually accompany the chapter to war. many are non-combatants of advanced years whose roles are to find and train recruits or administrate the chapter. some ranks described by the codex include the chapter's standard bearer, the master's secretarius, the lord of the household, the chapter's armourer, the commander of the fleet, victuallers, the commander of the arsenal, commander of the recruits and commander of the watch.' This is from page 48 of the angels of death codex. Many of these ranks now have models under the name masters, but different chapters use different names for rank - indeed Dante is names Lord Dante, Commander of the Blood Angels and in a way commander may not be his rank in that description, and he is Chapter Master nonetheless.

Any thoughts? You're all welcome to disagree as I use the original sources and not new ones that may contradict and therefore overwrite them. I'm happy to learn of new sources however and as usual I will find a way to fot it in somehow, especially when I find a loophole!

Scriboergosum
09-09-2009, 16:50
I haven't been in the hobby long enough to own the Angels of Death codex. Very interesting to hear what that contains :)

Anyway, if that's what Angels of Death says, then the new C: BA contradicts it, as it says he was born "nearly 1,100 years ago", making his age definately less than 1,100 years per new fluff.
Seems a strange thing to change, especially considering they made him younger. Changing his age to make him older, more revered and respected, that I might understand, but this just seems weird.

Perhaps it was the SH fluff that got in the way. Realising he would have been the CM at the time, and therefore partly responsible, they changed his age to clear his name. Don't know when the Sangallo disaster was first written, if it was before or after the new codex, but if it was before that might be the reason for the change in Dante's age.

I recognize the possibility that Dante was Chapter Master at the time and that Sangallo was simply a Commander of some sort who was in charge of the mission, I just really don't like the idea :D
More than that, though, I don't think it fits. Dante is presented as almost immaculate, a master of strategy and tactics, widely respected and so on and so forth. A blemish such as this one doesn't fit with that image, doesn't fit the character, you know?
Even if it did happen very early on in his CM-career and he might have been forgiven by now, it's a big failure, not something you'd just forget.
If Dante was described as a melancholic character, always searching for redemption for past failures, this would fit perfectly. Someone like the Chapter Master of the Flesh Tearers, Seth, a gloomy fella who seeks redemption in battle. Not Dante, though.

Considering the way GW normally writes the fluff for characters such as Dante, I'm just not for the idea and therefore the new fluff suits me better. The characters are very often one-sided. You get one trait and that more or less completely defines their personality, and when it comes to the original Legions (or rather the Chapters that retained the names of the Legions) this is especially true.
The most prominent character of each Chapter is almost a copy of their particular Primarch, at least when it comes to their personality.
Dante is not nearly as charming, but is very widely respected and adored, is a very elegant and talented fighter, fights from the front etc. He's basically a much less powerful version of Sanguinius, and failure such as this doesn't fit the Angel (I know Sanguinius did experience defeats, not least when he got killed :) but still).

The same could be said about most other such characters. Calgar is as proud, efficient and boring as Guilliman, Shrike is as sneaky and taciturn as Corax, Khan strikes swiftly and without mercy, Vulkan Hestan... really likes fire, I guess...
Anyway, many members of a Chapter share properties with the primarch, but the most prominent ones, ie. the ones we hear about, are almost exact copies.

The above is just my opinion, of course, I have nothing to base this on, but this is basically why I don't think GW wanted Dante to be in charge of this, it wouldn't fit his character.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 17:14
Yeah I can see where you are coming from there. As for realising the fluff was contradicted - that would maybe depend on whether the 1st ed mentioned the 950 dead - i don't own 1st ed space hulk and many people have stated it does and others that it doesn't mention the massacre. I can't say whether it's new or old fluff. The 2nd ed certainly didn't mention a previous massacre of any kind, but did mention that the chapter helped in the cleansing of grachia iv after the spawn of execration campaign.

I still like having more named characters - as i name all my sergeants and characters in my army and the ones from canon fluff the better, but i would also prefer dante was in no way to blame. I'd also love to know who the dead guy is from the Wrath of Ball - I want a name for him! Admittedly any names from 10000 years ago are unlikely to come to light ...

Ramius4
09-09-2009, 17:18
Honestly I doubt that GW people were intending in any way to write the current SH storyline in a manner that contradicted something that went before it. My bet is that whoever wrote the fluff for SH simply wasn't very familiar with the BA history and characters.

There's no big mystery to be solved here. Inconsistencies like this happen all the time when you've got a sprawling universe full of characters and they are represented in multiple sources by multiple writers (who may or may not have ever read all the background material that has been done previously).

Much in the way that the 3rd ed codex stated that Dante was over 1100 years old, when the 2nd edition (always canon in my mind) clearly stated he had ruled the chapter for over 1100 years. I thought that must've been a case of the 3rd ed codex writer having read the 2nd ed codex and drawing from memory rather than having it in front of him as a reference. Somewhere along the line the word 'rule' was swapped with 'lived'.

Simple as that.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 17:25
Yeah. Or execute all the librarians in your army for recording history inaccurately... Except Calistarius cos harming that excellent miniature qould be a crime...

Ramius4
09-09-2009, 17:27
Yeah. Or execute all the librarians in your army for recording history inaccurately... Except Calistarius cos harming that excellent miniature qould be a crime...

Callistarius has two LL's heretic!!! lol

Scriboergosum
09-09-2009, 17:31
Honestly I doubt that GW people were intending in any way to write the current SH storyline in a manner that contradicted something that went before it. My bet is that whoever wrote the fluff for SH simply wasn't very familiar with the BA history and characters.

There's no big mystery to be solved here. Inconsistencies like this happen all the time when you've got a sprawling universe full of characters and they are represented in multiple sources by multiple writers (who may or may not have ever read all the background material that has been done previously).

Much in the way that the 3rd ed codex stated that Dante was over 1100 years old, when the 2nd edition (always canon in my mind) clearly stated he had ruled the chapter for over 1100 years. I thought that must've been a case of the 3rd ed codex writer having read the 2nd ed codex and drawing from memory rather than having it in front of him as a reference. Somewhere along the line the word 'rule' was swapped with 'lived'.

Simple as that.

You're very right, this is what happens, and when you start looking for things like this, you realise it happens a lot! :D
I don't think anyone is trying to solve any mysteries, but when new fluff is released and it conflicts to some degree with what went before, it's always fun to try and make everything fit together. That often leads to some very sketchy inferences and assumptions, but fluff is just there for the hell of it, to make the context of the game more vibrant and entertaining, so as long as it works for you it doesn't matter how weird and out there your explanation is.
Basically, whatever floats your boat :)

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 17:33
Oops sorry, also WOULD has no q - blame the scribe.

I guess I'm just one of those that like to fill in the blanks!

Grapeshot
09-09-2009, 17:48
I have almost read halfway through the new Space Hulk novel.

One of the marines (Lorenzo i think) recalled how the Blood Angels lost their numbers due to a mistake during their expedition into the first Space Hulk, which resulted in high deaths.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 17:49
Hey guys, just some info from the fluff in a timeline for Blood Angels only, taken from 2nd ed 40k codices, and 2nd and 3rd ed Space Hulks.

Format is Millenium, then year in the standard date format, then the information for that date.

899.M40 39,899 Commander Dante is promoted to Chapter Master - roughly 1100 years
996.M40 39,996 The Space Hulk Massacre at Secoris: 950 Blood Angels perish in an assualt on a Space Hulk led by Commander Sangallo.
589.M41 40,589 Commander Bellisario, Captain Michaelus Raphael and Lexicanium Calistarius enter the Space Hulk Sin of Damnation. Sergeant Lorenzo is the last squad to fight to safety. Calistarius is the last unwounded man to leave the Hulk.
5.2.701.M41 40,701 Commander Borgia, Captain Statice and Sergeant Lorenzo enter the Space Hulk Spawn of Execration.
6.26.736.M41 40,736 Captain Lorenzo leads the Blood Angels against the Space Hulk Harbinger of Despair, including Sergeant Tycho.
7.15.736.M41 40,736 First every download of a Space Hulks archives made from the Space Hulk Harbinger of Despair.
7.3.736.M41 40,736 Sergeant Zariah kills the dormant Genestealer Patriarch aboard the Space Hulk Harbinger of Despair.
736.M41 40,736 The Blood Angels Chapter eliminate the Genestealer threat in the Scourging of Grazarch XXIV.
745.M41 40,745 First encounter with Tyranids. Hivefleet Behemoth invades Adeptus Mechanicus Explorator station at Tyran. Battle of Macragge. Ultramarine's first company wiped out.
941.M41 40,941 The Second War for Armageddon. Ghazkhull Thraka invades, repelled by Lord Dante's Blood Angels, Salamanders and Ultramarines. Librarian Calistarius is reborn as Mephiston, Lord of Death. Sergeant Tycho is promoted to Captain and suffers a Psychic Attack which leaves him disfigured.
943.M41 40,943 The Second War for Armageddon comes to an end. Fighting will ocntinue for another twenty years however.
958.M41 40,958 Commander Borgia reminices on the Space Hulk Spawn of Execration.
991.M41 40,991 The Third War for Armageddon. Ghazkhull invades a second time but is again repelled. Chaplain Vermento reports Tycho fallen to the Black Rage and is assigned to permanent active duty. Tycho is inducted into the Death Company. Entire Third Company wiped out.

shadow hunter
10-09-2009, 09:49
Thanks for that timeline. My brother plays blood angels so I know little bits about them. I didn't realise Tycho had fallen to the black rage. I thought he had been killed. I could have swore I read sommet in white dwarf about him being found dead ontop of a pile of Orks after defending a breach or something.

If he's fallen to the black rage now though - I do hope they do rules for him as such. Even though it'll mean me fighting against him

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 10:07
Sorry, I should have made that clearer - he succumbed to the black rage during the third war for armageddon and was also killed there. You may have seen him painted up by 'eavy metal in black instead of gold.

I've been a blood angels player since 1997. I still mainly play 2nd ed rules though as I've always been a fair player - and kept the wargear to a minimum. I play campaigns mostly and when keeping track of kills you need a hard ass captain to stay alive over several missions when you have just the one to the whole company!

shadow hunter
10-09-2009, 11:01
2ND Ed is when I started this hobby. I do miss those days, but I could be misremembering. At that time I never knew other players, so it was my Eldar versus my brothers blood angels. We enjoyed it - but we knew very little at the time. We rarely used over the top builds though, purely as we were new to the game and just kept everything basic.

I enjoy playing necromunda now and again, and remembering the good old days of some of the rules.

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 11:33
I play necro too when i can. they're the basis for my campaign rules - the serius injuries table anyway.
Power gaming was the term used in ages past and all versions of the rules are open to it but less today. I always used themed armies and my favourite models rather than what was best. Learningto play with what you have, not what is best is the trick. It is true in Space Hulk too as your forces are already chosen for you.