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torn
07-09-2009, 23:09
I have come up with some basic rules for custom squad design for the space marines in space hulk. This is geared mostly towards playing bigger multiplay battles with more varied objectives and where certain marines wont be needed to actually complete the scenario.

The basic idea is that there is a squad limit of 5 men and 200pts. You may only have 1 hero and 4 terminator veterans. Everyone is assumed to be equipped with storm bolter and power fist as starting equipment, except the librarian who comes as per the rulebook and may not swap weapons. Everyone else can purchase new weapons from the weapons list.

Squad Members

20 marines
30 sergeant
40 librarian
40 captain (as rules per sergeant, +1 minute extra time limit)

Weapons List

weapons can only be equipped one per right arm and one per left arm, replacing the original weapons. No more than 2 marines may carry heavy weapons, and only hero's can carry the power weapon.

Right Arm

20 heavy flamer
50 assault cannon
10 thunder hammer

left arm

30 power weapon
20 storm shield
10 chain fist

both arms

10 lightning claws


this list is just a basic starting point at the moment. If i have missed any weapons off please let me know. I would also like to add wargear in the future once i have tried out the rules such as the energy shield generators and a player controlled C.A.T which uncovers blips.

any suggestions are more than welcome, but please note i dont want to at this time add new weapons into the game, or non terminator armoured marines. I want to leave the gameplay as is. I think i have worked it out so the starting squads in the mission book can be made under these rules.

Znail
08-09-2009, 02:17
Those points arent realy connected to the actual quality of things. Most importantly so do you undervalue the heavy weapons and Librarian and overvalue the close combat weapon upgrades.

torn
08-09-2009, 12:33
Ive valued the weapons based on how well they do in games ive played. the flamer is low, as yes it is useful but by a marine taking it he automatically loses his overwatch ability. It is the same reason why some close combat weapons have lower values. the power weapon may be to high at 30, although it is nearly as good as a thunder hammer and storm sheild in combat, and the bearer still gets to keep his storm bolter.

The assault cannon at fifty allowes to to take 1 and then still arm your sergeant, but doesnt allow you to take 2. Remember in big games the limited ammo of 20 shots really isnt a lot. same goes with 6 shots from the flamer.

The way i have worked the numbers is not as a 'the sergeant is twice as good as a marine so should be double the cost' but more of a 'the librarian costs those extra 10 points so it still lets me take an assault cannon but then i cant equip a guy with TH/SS and a guy with a chain fist'.

I might move the librarians cost up to 50

Odin
08-09-2009, 13:18
You definitely underestimate the flamer. I have won several games simply because of its ability to block corridor sections.

precinctomega
08-09-2009, 13:28
Given that every points value ends in a 0, why not remove it entirely?

R.

torn
08-09-2009, 13:52
You definitely underestimate the flamer. I have won several games simply because of its ability to block corridor sections.

As i said this list is for big games. And i do mean big. Yes the flamer is very good up to a point but it does have a lot of weaknesses especially on larger maps. I also wanted it to be possibly for a squad to take an assault cannon and a flamer, or even 2 flamers if they wished. The marines biggest strength in my opinion is overwatch, and taking the flamer negates that.


Given that every points value ends in a 0, why not remove it entirely?

R.

because in the future some things might be changed to end with a 5.

i do appreciate the comments and i am taking all opinions into consideration. how about this for a revised list?

++++

Squad Members

20 marines
30 sergeant
50 librarian
40 captain (as rules per sergeant, +1 minute extra time limit)

Weapons List

weapons can only be equipped one per right arm and one per left arm, replacing the original weapons. No more than 2 marines may carry heavy weapons, and only hero's can carry the power weapon.

Right Arm

25 heavy flamer
50 assault cannon
10 thunder hammer

left arm

25 power weapon
20 storm shield
10 chain fist

both arms

10 lightning claws

++++

pookie
08-09-2009, 14:54
i cant see how points work in SH? whats your points value for Stealers?

personally id say that for each 5 man sqd you can have 1 heavy wep, they can forfit there SB/PF for either LC or TH/SS. ( same for Sgt )

For every 10 Terminators you can have either a Captain or Libby, but the Stealers get one Broodlord for each Cpt/Libby.

Znail
08-09-2009, 15:05
Do you define a large battle as a genestealer shooting gallery where the biggest danger to the Terminators are running out of ammo? I guess that would put a bit of a diffrent perspective on things, but its hardly the norm as far as missions go, even custom ones. In missions where time is important then the Flamer can be worth quite alot more then in a mission like Exterminate.

Anyway, to clarify some more dissagreements. The Librarian is easily as strong as an entire squad of Terminators, Sergeant and heavy weapon included. With your pricing so is he cheaper then a basic Sergeant with Power Weapon, making him the easy no-brain choise.

And if you favor Overwatch greatly, then why is there a cost for the Lightning Claws at all? I dont think they qualify as an actual upgrade over the standard Terminators, even if you dont always do 'large' battles.

Its also worth noting something that isnt mentioned in the 3rd edition rules as its not needed and that is that the Sergeants has a +1 bonus in close combat. This is included in the weapon profiles in 3rd edition, but if you are going to swap gear around, then that bonus should stay with the sergeants. Incidentaly, captains had +2 in the 1st edition.

torn
08-09-2009, 16:04
I assumed the +1 bonus stayed on the sergeant, which is how the thunder hammer sergeant gets +2. (page 14 rulebook under sergeants, it is him not his weapon that gives him +1 in combat).

In my opinion the librarian isnt as good as a whole squad because he cant watch his own back, but i do agree he is better than the sergeant with power sword and storm bolter. then again the force axe concurs you no real close combat bonus, allows you no parry etc, without spending psi points. Also the librarian doesnt allow you to re-draw your command points, which is a very nice thing to have available. I dont see it as a no brainer at all, as the sergeant is just as useful in his own way.

lightning claws can be really useful in close combat, and when you think the only way a stealer can kill a marine is in close combat then the close combat weapons become a lot more useful.

when i say big missions im trying to imply using more than one box worth of tiles, and having multiple objectives, possibly going from one side of the board and back again. I also think it would be a good way of creating a squad for a kind of linked campaign.

pookie - this in no way refers to the stealers, as they are pretty much as per the missions. This list is not to create pitched battles of a warhammer style.

pookie
08-09-2009, 16:21
pookie - this in no way refers to the stealers, as they are pretty much as per the missions. This list is not to create pitched battles of a warhammer style.

no, but at the same time, points imo dont work in SH.

yes to being able to Tailor your sqds a little, but for example, if you give up your SB/PF then to me a straight swop for LC is fair, after all the LC Temrinator cannot shoot, he has to actually risk Combat to beat a Stealer, where as with a SB and PF you get to do a lot of shooting and over watch so it evens its self out.

i in no way dislike your ideas, i just dont think its a game that should use points, thats all.

torn
08-09-2009, 17:06
the only thing is other than using points values what is there to stop everyone taking a squad led by a librarian and having 2 assault cannons etc. I just cant think of a better way to have customisable squads but up to a certain limit.

Znail
08-09-2009, 17:14
I assumed the +1 bonus stayed on the sergeant, which is how the thunder hammer sergeant gets +2. (page 14 rulebook under sergeants, it is him not his weapon that gives him +1 in combat).
Then your points make even less sense. Parry alone isnt worth 25-30 points, nor is Th/Sh much better then dual LC. So a sergeant would get the most worth from no weapon upgrades or dual LC.


In my opinion the librarian isnt as good as a whole squad because he cant watch his own back, but i do agree he is better than the sergeant with power sword and storm bolter. then again the force axe concurs you no real close combat bonus, allows you no parry etc, without spending psi points. Also the librarian doesnt allow you to re-draw your command points, which is a very nice thing to have available. I dont see it as a no brainer at all, as the sergeant is just as useful in his own way.Actualy, he can watch his own back as he can block that with a psi-power and overwatch/guard to his front. Well, I will try later to play a mission that normaly lets you use a squad and replace them with the Librarian and see how it goes. Or maybe someone else will beat me to it.


lightning claws can be really useful in close combat, and when you think the only way a stealer can kill a marine is in close combat then the close combat weapons become a lot more useful.
The problem is that even if LC have a larger chance of winning then a basic Terminator so doesnt that say alot as genestealers eat normal terminators. LC's basicly have even chance of winning against a stealer, althou better then even when on guard. Thus a LC terminator can win some, but its unlikely that he will last for long . A Terminator on overwatch has a much better then even chance of taking out a stealer trying to get to him and will thus in general perform better then the LC one. This goes tripple for large missions! LC is still usefull in tight maps, but its at best a sidegrade from the normal loadout.


when i say big missions im trying to imply using more than one box worth of tiles, and having multiple objectives, possibly going from one side of the board and back again. I also think it would be a good way of creating a squad for a kind of linked campaign.

It would require very light opposition for the Terminators to go across a multiple boards map and back. I would classify that as a walk in the park compared to the normal missions. Its usualy a race against time with the Terminators running out of bodies while trying to complete the mission. SH is a two player game, not a single player game against strawmen.

torn
08-09-2009, 17:36
Your probably right that is too much cost for just parry. I also think reducing the storm shield as well, probably 20 for power weapon and 10 for storm shield.

Lightning claws should be a free upgrade for marines but cost 10 for sergeants who would make them instantly more useful.

As far as playing a mission solely with the librarian, you can only really do missions 1 and 2, as they are the only ones to use 1 squad. Remember he cant re-draw CP's and when he runs out of psi points he isnt as good as a sergeant. I think he has a chance at mission 1 (saying he can smite the objective room to win), but i think mission 2 he would just get surrounded and a good stealer player would take him out easily. If you could do either of these and let me know how it goes i wouldnt mind the input.

As far as a bigger map being a walk in the park i doubt it. There will still be mission objectives, and as a primarily stealer player, i dont think the terminators will find they are going up against straw men. bigger maps mean more junctions and corners and generally more hiding places and blip entry areas. A good stealer player will take advantage if this to make a very challenging game.

honestly any ideas are welcome, and my sole intention is for multiplayer games where everyone can take a 5 man squad, which will all be suited to the player yet equal.

Znail
08-09-2009, 21:34
As far as a bigger map being a walk in the park i doubt it. There will still be mission objectives, and as a primarily stealer player, i dont think the terminators will find they are going up against straw men. bigger maps mean more junctions and corners and generally more hiding places and blip entry areas. A good stealer player will take advantage if this to make a very challenging game.

I am not saying a bigger map is a easy, just that HAS to be easy for the terminators to have a chance to survive that long. If a normal mission would say take 6-7 turns to finnish the objective, then there can be plenty of stealers attacking as long as you can keep the important terminators alive long enuff. If you instead plan for a mission to take 30+ turns, then you cant have that strong stealer opposition as then the terminators cant last that long.

pookie
09-09-2009, 12:30
the only thing is other than using points values what is there to stop everyone taking a squad led by a librarian and having 2 assault cannons etc. I just cant think of a better way to have customisable squads but up to a certain limit.

the cap it like i suggested before.

for each 5 man sqd only one can have a HF or AC, you need to have two sqds to have either a Cpt or Libby ( but not both )

For each Cpt/Libby the stealer gets a BL.

again i suggest dropping points, it simply will not work, when one side doesnt use them. the only way around this is if you allocated Stealers points, but then that removes the randomness of Blips.

Maybe each 1 Blip cost 10 pts, each 2 Blip 20 pts and each 3 Blip 30 Pts. and the stealer player gets to spend 200 points on Blips before the mission, they then get d3 per Stealer turn in addition to the avavilable ones within the mission.

i do like your idea, please dont think im just trying to disuade you, i just cant see how you can have a 'fair/fun' game unless both sides get points

Leftenant Gashrog
09-09-2009, 15:07
again i suggest dropping points, it simply will not work, when one side doesnt use them.

I don't see why not, it worked okay for (expanded) 1st edition. Although it wasn't just about customising your squad, the rule was that players would bid how many points to use and whoever bid lowest would play the marines for that mission, so it gave a sense of accomplishment - it wasn't beating the mission X times, it was how few points you could manage it with.

pookie
09-09-2009, 15:24
I don't see why not, it worked okay for (expanded) 1st edition. Although it wasn't just about customising your squad, the rule was that players would bid how many points to use and whoever bid lowest would play the marines for that mission, so it gave a sense of accomplishment - it wasn't beating the mission X times, it was how few points you could manage it with.

True, but it just doesnt 'feel' right imo.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 15:37
An alternative option is to gather all your forces - I have several Terminator squads so can do this - if not, just write them down... - then assign forces to each of the first few missions, and then pick forces from the survivors for the later missions. The only exception would be having to replace a marine with a heavy weapon if you need one for the mission.

This has produced interesting results many moons ago when I was stuck with a terminator assualt squad and heavy flamer marine to reach an objective. As you can guess, with no ranged firepower they were slaughtered, but that was my folly for not mixing my units early in my allocation - eg one cc marine per squad.

Anyone else tried something similar? I know it's paperwork heavy but works well once you get into it - I've even managed a three company campaign in 40k using only my one company of marines and a handful of spares to fill the gaps. one hq per company makes them important too - hq's are an option i want to add to space hulk too but not using the first ed rules - chaplains were too powerful...