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Hellebore
09-09-2009, 11:31
Having used this to brutal efficiency I'm wondering if it's too good, or at least biasing marine behaviour.

It is a far better option for a marine to go on guard than to fight in melee in their own turn, especially if they're a combat character (sergeants and lightning claw guy).

I found myself always putting the lightning claw model on guard rather than moving forward and actually attacking because the advantage is so great.


So I was thinking, what advantage does shooting have that prevents overwatch being too good? Sustained Fire.

What if you give melee (for marines only of course) +1 for subsequent rounds of combat, sustained assault.

I don't know, but marine melee is really more rewarded on the defensive rather than offensive, which I find a little wierd with something like a lightning claw terminator.

Hellebore

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 13:32
I'm not so sure - I played mission six today, and for the first time used Guard as all other situations hadn't needed it before then.

I did find it odd that I was best left not moving and just going onto Guard when there was a genestealer right infront of me but nonetheless that was what I did. I assumed it was the Terminator getting into his stance or something like meditating.

Either way he copped it on the first round of combat after the genestealer rolled a six, so it certainly didn't seem too powerful to me.

Playing mission two right afterwards - to use the other guys and weapons - I managed to get Gideon to secure one half of the board after surviving two attacks on guard - though Block and his +2 CAB were most useful here!

On paper it may sound odd but play a few missions - or even level one with alternate forces as it's the easiest to play quickly, and you'll see what I mean.

Hellebore
09-09-2009, 13:49
Having played several games using it, both for and against, I'm finding it a very powerful ability.

But it means that an assault terminator is defending, not assaulting.

Hellebore

KroSha
09-09-2009, 15:21
Which is great if he's a rear guard, or perimeter defence. Then he's really solid. But if he's not advancing, you're stalled and are not progressing with the mission.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 15:42
I suppose you have to think of them as close combat terminators and not assault terminators. I have yet to use my new assualt terminator units in space hulk to see if a whole squad using the new rules stands a chance. In first ed you were pretty confident attacking a genestealer in close combat.

One advantage I can see is to attack from the side or rear if guarding a room by standing to the side of a doorway as an overwatching marine fires away. As the genestealer enters use a command point to attack the foe from the side - you get a free hit in then - plus the enemy will have to enter the room and then turn to face the marine giving the overwatcher that extra shot.

Znail
09-09-2009, 16:41
The two assault terminator loadouts lost +1 in CAB compared with 1st edition in return for getting guard. Personaly I dont think they was that unfair trade as the 1st edition ones was alot better for offensively. The sergeant with powerweapon got that boost for free tho, but as he can use overwatch so is it only sometimes more usefull then before. So I dont see guard as having a large impact on the game balance.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
09-09-2009, 16:46
Having played several games using it, both for and against, I'm finding it a very powerful ability.

But it means that an assault terminator is defending, not assaulting.

Hellebore

I think it makes sense complete sense. Genestealers are much faster and more maneuverable, especially in a cramped spaceship, so the marine is just getting into his combat stance prepared to fight. Moving up to attack a genestealer in terminator armor would leave the marine in a less prepared state to fight.

Scriboergosum
09-09-2009, 17:06
I think it makes sense complete sense. Genestealers are much faster and more maneuverable, especially in a cramped spaceship, so the marine is just getting into his combat stance prepared to fight. Moving up to attack a genestealer in terminator armor would leave the marine in a less prepared state to fight.

I agree. Some marines might be better suited for CC, but I still think they would take a defensive stance whenever possible. Genestealers are lightning fast killing machines, even with LCs or TH/SS I don't think you'd go looking for a fight with them. Better to choose where to make a stand and let them come to you.
If they were better suited for offensive actions they'd shift the balance in an unfortunate way. The way the rules are now you can use these guys to plug holes in your lines, not really to advance.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 17:19
True. Plus I suppose they make a tempting target for the genestealer player. Maybe I'm biased cod Claudius died the very first combat he ever got into and I haven't got onto the next mission yet!

Christine
09-09-2009, 22:12
Thing is if that marine is sitting there doing bupkiss and its causing the mission to stall for the marines the stealer playing should be using it as an opportunity to amass a horde of stealers. A horde rush has a pretty good chance of battering any marine down through sheer weight of numbers.

Hellebore
10-09-2009, 01:00
I have yet to have my missions stall whilst putting claudio on guard. When you've only got one assault model like that you don't have to worry about command points. If the squad was multiple LC models then guard might slow you down if you want to put them all on it.

But one model with lightning claws moving up the front and going on guard takes little out of your speed.

The thing is that Overwatch is something you'll want to do with multiple models because they are far better at shooting than melee, making it a tradeoff.

But during the marine turn you can agressively shoot. The sustained fire ability means you are rewarded for shooting in your own turn as well as on overwatch.

But there is no such rule for rewarding marines assaulting on their own turn.


Hellebore

Dexter099
10-09-2009, 01:41
Think about it this way. A Space Marine, especially one in terminator armor, is nowhere near as quick as a genestealer. So if he lunges forward to make the first strike, the genestealer can easily jump out of the way and then claw him apart, while if he was watching and preparing for the genestealer's every move, he would have a better chance of not overreaching himself and leaving himself exposed.

Hellebore
10-09-2009, 02:08
It just makes Claudio worse than a normal marine. He has absolutely NO ranged attacks. So his only use is in melee. Which he's only good at in the genestealer turn.

Having him is like having 0.75% of a marine.

Hellebore

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 08:54
I agree there Hellebore, I'd rather have a normal sb and pf marine than claudio. The extra dice and +1 is not really that amazing when your opponents get to roll three dice so aren't hurt by one of them being bad.

It is a model that requires different tactics though but you simply can't rely on him to hold a section for more than a turn or so whereas a marine with sb can overwatch a corridor all game.

Znail
10-09-2009, 12:10
So we have gone from Guard being too good, to Lightning Claws being to weak?
I am somewhat inclinded to agree, althou the LC dude does have his uses so I only consider him a very marginal downgrade in general. I think it would be interesting to field only assault terminators and see how that works out for some missions. You could even run mission 1 by including the old rule for selfdestruct for Thunder Hammers and have that as means to complete the mission.

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 14:42
Sorry if I changed the topic slightly... I had inteneded to mention my use of guard in a game situation which was with claudio mainly.

I have just finished another game today - one a day so far, and it was my second time using claudio and third time on guard. Gideon served me well in mission 2 on guard but his block and +2 are far more powerful than the bonus from guard I'd say.

The other times I have used guard was once yesterday and once today, both with claudio who has failed his very first combat of each game both times despite being on guard.

I feel guard should have more benefit for a cc terminator such as extra dice or something - guard is certainly weaker than overwatch in my opinion. It's a last chance save really.

IncrediSteve
10-09-2009, 19:04
For Guard in general, most of the time it is a fair trade off. You can still die pretty easily when on guard, and as mentioned that's AP not spent advancing on the objective. Unless I had no other choice going on guard was never an easy decision, so to me that would say it's not overpowered.

As for the lightning claws, they've done me quite well, whereas I'm coming to consider it a redletter day if the TH/SS sergeant survives past one stealer.

Where he shines is standing in the way of a chokepoint, blocking the stealers off from the rest of your squad. Even if they don't attack or take a long way around he's done his job.

precinctomega
10-09-2009, 19:08
I think Guard represents the strength and slowness of the power fist.

I'm toying with rules for other races (specifically, Imperial Guard squads*) and one thing I've taken away is the ability to go on Guard except for officers equipped with power fists.

*Yes, so far they are mostly minced by stealers, which is about the right thing to happen, IMO. I'm trying to design missions that might offer them a fighting chance.

R.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
10-09-2009, 19:46
As for the lightning claws, they've done me quite well, whereas I'm coming to consider it a redletter day if the TH/SS sergeant survives past one stealer.

Really? I would think the math plays out in Gideon's favor over Claudio.

FerociousBeast
10-09-2009, 19:50
If a marine player tried to spam Guard on me (by spam I mean just going on guard and not attacking in his own turn) I'd just fill the corridor up with genestealers. You might kill two or three, but you won't get them all.

Edit: yeah the TH/SS is better than the LCs, especially on guard. On guard, Gideon gets to roll two dice (effectively) just like the genestealer. But he has a +2 to go along with it. The LCs, on guard, give three dice (effectively), just like the genestealers, but add only +1 to the roll.

torn
10-09-2009, 20:01
yeah i much prefer gideon on guard. he is an immense powerhouse, better than a stealer, and has quite a good chance even against the broodlord.

guard can be usefull, but i find even if the stealer is only 2 spaces away you have a better chance of coming out alive on overwatch. 1 space away then im not too sure lol.