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CoolKidRoc
09-09-2009, 19:16
Ok, so Mission 2 seems to be a pretty rough thing for the Stealers, especially if the Marines back themselves in a hallway with overwatch. Played 2 games and both games I couldn't do anything because the marines would just wipe out 6 or so a turn there was not kind of rushing that could get past that.

Any Thoughts?

I was thinking of making that one where nids didn't have a limit and marine player would have to capture both entrance areas to win instead of just waiting for the nids to run out

Znail
09-09-2009, 19:21
Its not an easy mission for the stealers, but it sounds like you are doing it wrong too. There is no stress for the stealers to attack, so you can build up a sizeable force and then storm with overwhelming numbers! I still think the mission favors the marines, but not as badly as it does if you charge a blip at a time.

wilsongrahams
09-09-2009, 19:22
I agree. Marines always win now when i play. As for making it harder for them / easier for the stealers, try simply doubling the blips per turn and using the stack twice. No ammount of fire can constantly clear a corridor. Also try scrapping the securing area rule maybe? Though it's supposed to be easier and they do get harder. Mission 6 is a close call for example. Haven't played the later ones yet as want everything painting first.

CoolKidRoc
09-09-2009, 19:56
Yeah, I know Znail, but I build a force of prolly 12+ stealers and everytime I enter LOS they die, and as long as the SM player keeps comand points then they can get rid of Jams.

I'm not going to compain about it but until after I've played all the missions, just seems like that one is a no win for the stealers.

spaint2k
10-09-2009, 01:42
That mission is a tough one for the 'stealers, BUT once they manage to break through just one of the marines, the entire marine line begins to collapse.

I've played four games of this mission and each time it went right down to the last man. Great stuff!

szlachcic
10-09-2009, 02:40
I agree with the others that say it is harder for the 'stealers to win then the Terminators, but I don't think it is impossible. I played the mission the other day as the Genestealers and had some success by flooding the southern portion of the map. I was able to block LOS with one Genestealer when in position and run the rest across the hall to get into the corridor that "loops" around the southern-most room. The player had another marine guarding the approach, but it isn't that long of a hallway and sooner or later you will get through the overwatch fire. After that I was able to pick off two more Marines fairly quickly. I got them down to one more Marine, but my plan was put into motion too late (I am a noob at SH and this was my first time playing the mission). I am confident I could win it the next time I played.

So yeah, build up and attack in groups until you get luckly. Sometimes the dice will be with you and sometimes they won't. Just don't charge down long hallways at a marine in some lunatic assault and you should be good.

CoolKidRoc
10-09-2009, 02:55
I think that's the problem though, because that's the only option we give each other is to charge down a long hallway. And if that's how it get's played then there really isn't a chance for the Stealers.

szlachcic
10-09-2009, 03:21
I think that's the problem though, because that's the only option we give each other is to charge down a long hallway. And if that's how it get's played then there really isn't a chance for the Stealers.

But there are ways to bypass most of the long hallways. The only kink is if he starts blocking hallways with Gideon. The time I played it I got lucky and 2 shot Gideon so I was able to attack from two sides at once before the SM player could rearrange his defenses.

torn
10-09-2009, 05:56
there is one hallway, with the bulkhead piece at the back, which has no other way around, is about 9 spaces long, and if the marine gets down there the stealers have very little chance. every other part of the map has a way around the back except that one. i lost 18 stealers to 1 marine down that corridor, in the space of 3 turns.

i just think that personally its a flawed mission

Bassik
10-09-2009, 07:02
Remember, the Genestealers are not in a rush. They don't have to complete any objective. The Marines do.
What my brother did was turn the tables, he made it into a horrible stalemate where my only chance of victory wasto actually close their entry points. I allmost succeeded, but he already had a huge stack of genestealers on the board, and there was no way I could fight my way through.

nedius
10-09-2009, 07:26
A half decent marine player will almost always win this mission. It's almost a no brainer. There's no tactics to it for the stealer - just blind luck.

If the marine player runs all his guys to the central two rooms, which is quite easy as the stealers have so far to travel to get to the marines, and sets up two overlapping over watch fire lanes, then the mission is as good as won. Even if the stealers can take out one room, they've then got to get into the other...

Even if the marine player sticks to one guy per room, it's not hard for each marine to average 6 kills per lost terminator.

Once, when I was young and 1st ed was still out, this was my favourite mission, because it looks so hopeless for the marines. Now, it's my least favourite, as it is actually stupidly easy and boring to play. Get in a room, stand on overwatch. next turn? Overwatch. turn after that? Overwatch. The only time I've ever come close to loosing this mission is where in one turn I jammed three of my SBs, and lost half the squad. Still, the flamer and one SB marine were still capable of holding the horde off long enough to win.

xSuperioRx
10-09-2009, 07:32
Remember, the Genestealers are not in a rush.

Exactly... I'd happy play against marine players just sitting in the corner. The 'stealer player gets all their models on the board, and then the marines have to find a way to kill them off.

Znail
10-09-2009, 07:52
If the marine player runs all his guys to the central two rooms, which is quite easy as the stealers have so far to travel to get to the marines, and sets up two overlapping over watch fire lanes, then the mission is as good as won. Even if the stealers can take out one room, they've then got to get into the other...

All that gets you is a draw as the stealer player isnt forced to attack you and if you play as a match with alternating sides then all your opponent needs to do is kill 1 genestealer to win while either scoring a draw or win.

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 09:01
The trick to this mission is in the deployment rather than the gameplay which is left to chance as already mentioned. Sure you have to swarm them to even stand a chance, but to win as stealers you have to make the perfect choice when deploying two of the models.
Sure the marine player will place his sergeant or heavy where he wants them, but then you take the other and place him where you want him. And here you don't want to put him out of the way, but in a room where you DON'T want a marine with storm bolter placed next - this way you are already avoiding some O/W fire.
If the marine player places the assault cannon on the upper map then you really want to place gideon in the room with the longest view on the lower section. This should allow you to get between the two rooms where there will undoubtably be marines with storm bolters. Also - dividing your forces just delays your end - you will probably have the upper section secured so why bother delaying it - simply place all forces in the lower section and with the above tactic, once that corridor is denied, you can hang onto a corner and wait for the marines to come around it so are at close range.

IAMNOTHERE
10-09-2009, 09:07
Damn I've been playing this wrong! I actually try and get within 6 squares of the entrances and close them down that way.

shadow hunter
10-09-2009, 09:18
I've played this on my own - and I did that too. Tried to close down the entry points. I got the south one closed and left the assault cannon there. But advancing on the north one I ran into too many genestealers and lost everyone.

I then had 23 genestealers versus my lone assault cannon man with just 13 shots left. I gave in at that point.

I realised after the game not to advance so much onto the entry points.

torn
10-09-2009, 09:26
ive only played this as the stealers, and when it came to finish and swapping sides it was just like 'why bother im just going to do the same thing as you and hope i get lucky and not jam, lets try mission 3 instead'.

mission 2 sounds good on paper but its a bit boring without any real objective. would be much better if there was unlimited stealers as usual and the objective was to close off the entry points.

nedius
10-09-2009, 09:58
The corridors are too long for even massed attacks to work reliably. Get two or three over watch marines with their back to a wall in one room and the likely hood of all three jamming/failing to roll a 6/5 is negligable. Once the terminators are in place, all command points are spare for re-setting overwatch.

The only way the stealers can win is playing a boring game themselves. Refuse to attack. Just sit back. if the marines want to win, force them to come to you.

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 10:04
That would also be really easy too though, as the marine's can fairly easily hold off til they rearrange their forces, and once one side is blocked off they can leave a depleted assault cannon securing them or gideon whilst the rest cover the other end and will eventually get the other end closed. The marine's will easily close the northern end with one marine if he can get the assault cannon watching gideon's back - nothing can get him from behind if the assualt cannon is watching that corridor. Once the area is secure it's not too much risk to kill any others left on board. I agree it's less stressful and not so fun as some others though.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
10-09-2009, 16:13
This mission needed unlimited Genestealers or a requirement that the Marines seal the entry points within a certain number of turns. As it stands, its just a big stalemate...

What do you think would be a fair number of turns to require the Marines to close the entry points?

twistinthunder
10-09-2009, 16:58
This mission needed unlimited Genestealers or a requirement that the Marines seal the entry points within a certain number of turns. As it stands, its just a big stalemate...

What do you think would be a fair number of turns to require the Marines to close the entry points?

then the stealer player would just block up the corridor.

tbh mission 2 is really broken

CoolKidRoc
10-09-2009, 17:35
I think unlimited Stealers and forcing the marines to close off the entry points would turn this one around. It would force the marines to go on the offensive and make it actually fun and not a stalemate or a rush into overwatch for the stealers.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
10-09-2009, 17:49
When in doubt about how a balance change will effect the game, I'm a believer that it is always better to make it harder for the Marine player.

An easy mission for the Marines is the ultimate let-down in this game if you ask me.

bananaman
10-09-2009, 17:53
I think the problem with this missions is that as a direct port from 1st and 2nd ed the new overwatch rules make the biggest difference here as there is no onus on the marine player to move.

Having sustained fire on overwatch is what makes the mission so difficult, without that it would be the same as in 1st ed (though the sergeant and heavy are armed differently) where it was still weighted in the marin's favour, but not so much.

Maybe try playing this mission without sustained fire on overwatch?

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 18:31
True. I have always liked, if not enjoyed the mission as to me it represents what the marine's would usually be doing on a hulk - butchering genestealers in their hundreds. Remember that genestealer losses should be high according to fluff. I like the map too. Maybe you could try the same mission objective but using the map from mission six - that would be interesting.

Dexter099
11-09-2009, 00:23
I think that the main thing to do with the stealers here is to grab certain locations early on, and then just build up your forces.

Chaplain Severus
13-09-2009, 17:08
I just got done playing the scenario as the Stealers. I attempted to build up in the southern corridor where his assault cannon was. I move right up to the corner with 4 genestealers (and a blip of 3 more following behind). the marine turned the corner and used 4-5 command points to destroy everyone and reveal the blip, which was effectively destroyed the next turn.

After that it his marines controlled both the southern corridors meaning I had to charge a full move or more under overwatch.

I think if he had drawn less command points I might have been able to kill the genestealer. But after that it was a foregone conclusion. The marine player made questionable choices like

1. guarding a northern corridor with the sgt. who I managed to kill after he killed 6 or so genestealers with his TH/SS combo

2. moving closer to block off spawn points even though he had full overwatch command of the 4 hallways.

The mission needs an objective for the marines or more routes of approach for the stealers so that the marines cannot simply block up each advance point and mow down endless amounts of stealers.

sustained fire in overwatch has a 55% chance to kill and a 16% chance to jam. The genestealers usually have to charge over 4 squares to get into melee.

Not a fun scenario.

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

Znail
13-09-2009, 19:22
The mission gets alot more balanced if you let the stealers play cheap and not attack and thus score a draw if the marines just sit back and defend. If playing alternate sides then its pretty easy to kill 1 stealer and thus do better then someone who didnt move at all. Thus if you want to actualy win you have to atleast try and close the entries.

FerociousBeast
13-09-2009, 19:40
I think after Mission 1, Suicide Mission, Mission 2 is designed to keep the marine player from getting too discouraged and quitting the damn game. :p

The key to having a semblance of a chance at winning with stealers is in the deployment and first few turns. Once the marine player has a chance to get his fire groups together, controlling the corridors, the game is really pretty much over. So the stealer player has to place his marines in as tactically disadvantageous a position as possible, and has to really push hard in the first few turns as the marine player puts his defense together.

After that, I think the stealer player needs to mass all of his genestealers on one side of the board, leaving only two or three blips on the other side to make sure the marine player has to keep guarding it.

Even still, when both players are experienced with the mission, it would be hard for marines to lose.

wilsongrahams
13-09-2009, 20:25
Rushing the assualt cannon may sound like folly but once it's out of ammo, that's one corridor the marines can't watch and you can really ruin his day as he only has three bolter marines. Letting the marines secure one side will also tie up a marine permanently as he can't pull him off else you can use them again. That's two down effectively. Always concentrate on the southern corridors and use the northern ones for opportunity attacks.

antinice
13-09-2009, 20:32
Not every scenario has to be a 50-50 outcome. If you're playing to keep score of wins (versus playing to enjoy the ultraviolent fluff of WH40K) then play it twice, switching sides, and decide who did better.

Znail
13-09-2009, 20:37
Well, you can play peekaboo with the AC to make the most of your stealers ammo deplition and when he is getting close to out of ammo for the first time, then remember that if you rush so wont he be able to shoot for that long. It would require 6 command points to both reload and reset overwatch.

wilsongrahams
13-09-2009, 20:45
Also remember that if you only send one stealer in view at a time, that's three potential kills and one ammo he's using on one stealer. Don't give him the free extra kills by giving the extra targets to shoot at. The genestealers have to play a patient game in this one without just hiding forever. Watch the film aliens and see how they attack the sentry guns before trying something else... They learn and adapt. So must you.

FerociousBeast
13-09-2009, 21:47
Free extra kills isn't in 3rd edition. Didn't make the cut from 2nd ed :)

T10
13-09-2009, 22:02
Yeah, there is a very fixed limit to how many kills you can get with the assault cannon. :)

We too noticed the very real possibility of this scenario devolving into a stale-mate. Both players need to be the kind of players that like taking risks and rolling dice. Otherwise it's simply too easy to go on the defensive and get a "draw". :P

-T10

Sarah S
13-09-2009, 22:17
Anything that encourages inactivity is bad games design.

This scenario is horrible games design.

Znail
13-09-2009, 22:17
Well, a draw would be a moral victory for the stealer player I think as its far from impossible to do the agressive win for the marine player and just defending as the marine player is the easy way out.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
14-09-2009, 02:07
We too noticed the very real possibility of this scenario devolving into a stale-mate. Both players need to be the kind of players that like taking risks and rolling dice. Otherwise it's simply too easy to go on the defensive and get a "draw". :P

-T10

Which is why I think there should be a true objective for the Marine player other than just killing all the Genestealers. I think unlimited Genestealers and forcing the Marine to close off the entry points would make this a much more interesting (and balanced) scenario to play.

Milgram
14-09-2009, 07:39
mah, you should just get a turn limit (even 100 turns) and let the marines only win if they manage to kill all stealers within that period.

wilsongrahams
14-09-2009, 08:27
Free extra kills isn't in 3rd edition. Didn't make the cut from 2nd ed :)

Not with the storm bolter no - no overkill from 2nd ed, but the assualt cannon does score one kill per hit. That's why they also dropped the full auto mode.

wilsongrahams
14-09-2009, 08:30
Playing within the spirit of the game works here too. If the stealers have learnt that rushing down the corridor doesn't work, then you need to go flush them out - that's what the marine's would do in reality. Once the northern end is secured - easily done by turn four. You can get some covering fire and advance with your sergeant and assualt cannon into whatever you may find. Sometimes you may fail but at least it will get the game moving.

FerociousBeast
14-09-2009, 13:04
Not with the storm bolter no - no overkill from 2nd ed, but the assualt cannon does score one kill per hit. That's why they also dropped the full auto mode.
That's going to require a page number for the rule please. (Hint, you're not going to find it ;))

Don't get me wrong, I wish you were right and you can still play the rule if you want, of course. But I was looking for that when I read through the rules and didn't find it.

wilsongrahams
14-09-2009, 13:23
You're right, reading the letter of the rules, it does state that you roll three dice to hit the target and any that are a 5 or 6 score a hit on THAT TARGET.

I had first used the assualt cannon in store and had been shown it wrong and then missed it as i read the rules once i had my own copy. Checking my first ed rulebook my interpretation was a mix of the burst and full auto rules and this is probably where the store guy had gone wrong too.

Thinking about this, I actually PREFER how I originally believed it to be else the assault cannon will never be able to kill more than 20 stealers in a mission and most probably no more than eight. So much for Leon liking kill count!

I am humbled by my earlier post, sorry!

GrogsnotPowwabomba
14-09-2009, 14:14
mah, you should just get a turn limit (even 100 turns) and let the marines only win if they manage to kill all stealers within that period.

Genestealers could too easily run away and hide using this approach. A simliar (and slightly better) way to do this is to force the marine player to seal off the entry points within a certain number of turns.

Either way, forcing the Marines to play aggressively, however it is done, is what would fix this mission.

wilsongrahams
14-09-2009, 15:13
Even without a turn limit, forcing the marine player to secure the entry areas but then allowing infinite stealers would work.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
14-09-2009, 15:17
Even without a turn limit, forcing the marine player to secure the entry areas but then allowing infinite stealers would work.

Yeah, this is my initial suggestion and I think the easiest fix to this mission...just give the Genestealer player unlimited blips and make the objective to secure the entry points...not to secure them or kill the limited Genestealers.

A simple fix. If anyone could playtest, I'd be curious how it goes down.

CoolKidRoc
14-09-2009, 15:47
Yeah, that was what my suggestion was when we first played a few games of this mission. We'll prolly play test it later, but it would make for a much more interesting game that's for sure, other then the Marine player just sitting in a room with 10 squares of empty space for the stealers to have to wade through.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
14-09-2009, 15:56
Low and behold you did actually suggest that in your first post. Here I thought I was being all creative and original and stuff...lol :(

wilsongrahams
14-09-2009, 15:57
It plays fine. I've completed this mission by securing both areas but before the blip stack ran out so there is no reason why it can't be done with infinite stealers.

The marine's can hold off one end whilst they secure the other, then bring the spares back and close on the rest. Not impossible even with a room of stealers. Three marines can stay on overwatch and have all routes covered indefinitley which leaves two to go in and secure the areas.

WildAnimal
14-09-2009, 18:25
Mission two is fine, its quick and dirty. Marines winning most of the time.

Which make you ready to play Mission 3 which is hard on the Marines i think.

CoolKidRoc
14-09-2009, 19:28
Anytime you can say one side will win 90% of the time (yes that's if marines just hunker down and force stealers to try to survive the overwatch sentrys) I would not call it fine.

FerociousBeast
14-09-2009, 19:40
I've no problem with marines having such an advantage in the mission. Overcoming the odds is what makes missions like that fun. The problem for me is that it drags on into an overwatch kill fest for the last half of the game.

scarletsquig
14-09-2009, 21:16
A change in corridor layout would improve the mission immensely. Anyone got any ideas on how to do this?

wilsongrahams
14-09-2009, 22:25
Take some board sections and put them in different places...

GrogsnotPowwabomba
14-09-2009, 22:39
I've no problem with marines having such an advantage in the mission. Overcoming the odds is what makes missions like that fun. The problem for me is that it drags on into an overwatch kill fest for the last half of the game.

Which is why forcing the Marines to take the entry points against unlimited Genestealers would immenseley improve this mission.

Any mission where the Marines have a distinct advantage is inherently lame. The Marines should always feel pressured to win. That is they whole point of Space Hulk. It would not be heroic or epic or even interesting if the Marines were just mowing down Genestealers with little or not threat of loss.

Kahadras
15-09-2009, 19:56
I would say that changing the lay out would be the best way forward. When I was playing the 'stealers I quickly ripped apart a couple of Termiantors that tried to block off the entry points but after that my opponant turtled in the middle section of the board and I had no answer for it. I ended up just throwing a ton of models at the Marines but even that didn't work.

Removing the bottleneck and the long corridors would really help IMHO and using sergeant Lorenzo's squad might make things a bit more balanced. The main reason I lost the last game was due to the assault cannon and sergeant Gideon.

Kahadras

DarkLordofDarkness
16-09-2009, 04:02
Having played this mission again today, I've come to a realization. There are three major defensive positions: the two southern corridors which are the best, the two green rooms which are the middle choice, and finally the mess of hallways and rooms that is the northern area.
I think the key for the genestealer player is to deny the marines their top two choices as best as possible, forcing them to deal with stealers in the twisty corridors that favour the bugs. Throwing two or even three turns with of blips at the southern corridors could make all the difference. Any marine coming down to try and block the entry points is going to have a serious fight on their hands to do so being assailed from front and back.

Lord Raneus
19-09-2009, 01:01
I just played this mission, and it was EXTREMELY frustrating as the stealer player. There is literally nothing you can do once the Marine player gets a firebase established; those corridors are murder. The 6-7 square long one near the top of the map saw 1 marine killing probably ~20 stealers single-handedly without one even getting within 3 squares of him.

As far as the two lanes on the bottom go, it was absurd. The Marine player jammed his SB 4 times and I still couldn't reach him the following turn.

In my opinion, two main changes should be made to this map. 1) Shorten the long vertical hallways by a couple of squares so the stealers can actually make it in somewhat close without getting murdered.
and
2) Make it so that, due to the confusion and their spread-out nature or w/e, Gideon does not grant his squad a Command point repick for this mission. The main killer for me was that the Marine player was ALWAYS able to unjam his SBs 3-4 times without fail. If there was less of a way to ensure high CP counts, and thus more jams, I think this mission would be easier on the 'stealers.

Chaplain Severus
20-09-2009, 03:09
Scenario 2 really is pointless.

As long as the marines do not do any thing stupid and control the 4 long halls with overwatch they can basically lay waste to all the genestealers.

We played it twice and the only marine to die was the sgt. It seems better to keep the Sgt. held back as a second line of defense (and to keep your re-pick of command points)

Shame that such an unbalanced scenario made it into the rules.

A better map with more attack routes would even fix it.


Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

CoolKidRoc
21-09-2009, 02:45
I totally agree with you guys, my friend and I have played a couple more games on different missions and I'm coming to believe that Overwatch is just to powerful. To often will one of us just move forward 2-4 squares and then go on overwatch and wait for any stealers to appear shoot them to hell and then next during do the same, it's very rinse and repeat and once you start doing that it makes for a monotonous game.

Mondobot
21-09-2009, 12:48
I have to say I dont see how people are allready complainin'. This is not 40k its not a balanced game. Mission one is for the stealers to win, mission 2 for the marines. The whole idea of the game is that everything dies and its fun. You have to play this game in the spirit of having a laugh. In mission 2 you get to put enemy marines facing walls at the back of rooms!!! The stealers are ment to run arround in the dark and eat people and the marines sre meant to at least try to seal the entry points to secure the hulk. The marines would have limited ammo in real life and dont know how many stealers are out there. If the marine player just sits in rooms and dosent try to seal the entrys then he's missing the point of the whole game.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
21-09-2009, 13:07
I have to say I dont see how people are allready complainin'. This is not 40k its not a balanced game. Mission one is for the stealers to win, mission 2 for the marines. The whole idea of the game is that everything dies and its fun. You have to play this game in the spirit of having a laugh. In mission 2 you get to put enemy marines facing walls at the back of rooms!!! The stealers are ment to run arround in the dark and eat people and the marines sre meant to at least try to seal the entry points to secure the hulk. The marines would have limited ammo in real life and dont know how many stealers are out there. If the marine player just sits in rooms and dosent try to seal the entrys then he's missing the point of the whole game.

So why not design the mission in a way to reflect this instead of assuming that players will play a certain way? By having unlimited Genestealers and specifically making the objective to seal the entry points, you force the Marine player to play exactly the way you just described.

Some people are competitive by nature, and will always try to win, which is why a better written scenario could easily have alleviated this problem.

And, if in time, people find Overwatch to be too powerful (beyond Mission 2) the best fix is probably to remove the Sustained Fire rule from it.

WildAnimal
21-09-2009, 13:30
Get your old 1st edition DeathWing rulebook, and read under the section

"HIDDEN BLIPS"
Use them for mission 2! this helps stalemates

here are a link http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/4ipd0ig4rk/SH-NewBlips.pdf
for hidden blips, 3rd edition style (the red ones).

AndrewGPaul
21-09-2009, 14:41
I have to say I dont see how people are allready complainin'. This is not 40k its not a balanced game. Mission one is for the stealers to win, mission 2 for the marines. The whole idea of the game is that everything dies and its fun.

YMMV, but the idea of a scenario that one player is "supposed" to win is not fun for me, or presumably for others.

As to "not being balanced", a boardgame, by its very nature, should be more balanced than a miniatures game. Especially for two scenarios with 20 years of playtesting time.

WildAnimal
21-09-2009, 14:52
As to "not being balanced", a boardgame, by its very nature, should be more balanced than a miniatures game. Especially for two scenarios with 20 years of playtesting time.

20 years? The new overwatch rules makes alot of earlier experince with the missions rather useless. in 1st edition, the sergeant had a storm bolter, plus it was a flamer rather then an Assault cannon for the heavy marine.

So Mission two is a whole new ballgame.... please don't compare missions that way the new overwatch system, makes a huge difference

GrogsnotPowwabomba
21-09-2009, 15:54
Get your old 1st edition DeathWing rulebook, and read under the section

"HIDDEN BLIPS"
Use them for mission 2! this helps stalemates

here are a link http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/4ipd0ig4rk/SH-NewBlips.pdf
for hidden blips, 3rd edition style (the red ones).

Link seems to not work anymore.

Mondobot
21-09-2009, 16:01
All I can say in response to the point of some people being competative is..Yes they are, so dont play a game like Space Hulk, try chess. And as for it being more balanced because its a board game think of chess, someone gets to go first which is a massive advantage. I'm sorry if my view of spacehulk upsets some people its just i see it as a nice change from 40k etc where the idea of winning tends to come second to enjoying blowing stuff up.

AndrewGPaul
21-09-2009, 16:28
Going first in chess is a minor advantage, true. Not a "massive" one; usually White has a 52-56% chance of winning.

I'm not meaning to have a go, if it came across like that I'm sorry. To be honest, I look at 40K as the game a play when I want to see "everything [die] and its fun. You have to play this game in the spirit of having a laugh".

On the other hand, the balance in Space Hulk comes, in a way, from the recommendation that you play each mission twice and swap sides.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
21-09-2009, 17:24
All I can say in response to the point of some people being competative is..Yes they are, so dont play a game like Space Hulk, try chess. And as for it being more balanced because its a board game think of chess, someone gets to go first which is a massive advantage. I'm sorry if my view of spacehulk upsets some people its just i see it as a nice change from 40k etc where the idea of winning tends to come second to enjoying blowing stuff up.

You are missing the point...missions should have some semblance of balance...if you can't understand why, I'm not sure what else to say.

And if the balance is to be swung in favor of one side or the other, it should definately be in the favor of the Genestealers.

Dexter099
22-09-2009, 01:50
This mission should actually be incredibly EASY for the stealers, since if you read the mission objectives, you'll realize that you just need to hide out near your spawn and let the terminators come to you, not the other way around.

However, most people don't realize this.

DarkLordofDarkness
22-09-2009, 02:00
the problem arises when there is a stalemate. Stealers are waiting for the marines and the marines are waiting for the stealers. I think a good compromise is to play it twice switching roles. If the marines win both times, declare the winner as the person who does it in the fewest turns. Nice and simple, and it encourages action.

Znail
22-09-2009, 02:06
This mission should actually be incredibly EASY for the stealers, since if you read the mission objectives, you'll realize that you just need to hide out near your spawn and let the terminators come to you, not the other way around.

However, most people don't realize this.

Quite true, people seem to think that because the marines CAN win by eliminating the stealers then the stealers are somehow forced to attack. The mission was diffrent in the older editions as then so was it quite possible for the stealers to overwhelm even a good defence by sheer numbers so it was actualy easier to win as marines by closing down the entries compared to letting the stealers mass up. This was also obvious in the old editions as closing the entires was more of a sidenote way of winning and not the main objective.


the problem arises when there is a stalemate. Stealers are waiting for the marines and the marines are waiting for the stealers. I think a good compromise is to play it twice switching roles. If the marines win both times, declare the winner as the person who does it in the fewest turns. Nice and simple, and it encourages action.

If you switch sides then its obvious that the marine player cant accept a stalemate as that would make him lose if the opponent after switching sides can manage to seal off the entries and score a win instead of a draw.

CoolKidRoc
22-09-2009, 03:52
Guess instinct just says Stealers should be the agressors and that is where the problem comes for me when playing this mission. Sitting back and waiting isn't that fun to me, and attacking is the only way a stealer can do damage where a marine can stand back and wait.

Also, I like to win as stealers and marines ;) I don't just play to win as Marines, I play to win everytime, even as stealers. I'm not there as a stealer player just to throw bodies into the fray to make the marine player feel good about how much he's killed.

Mondobot
22-09-2009, 21:54
Dont worry or say sorry AndrewGPaul, having reread my post I can see that maybee I was being a "bit" narky. Its just like I say, to me this is a rather mental game from my childhood, when rouge trader meant it took 27 days to play a game of 40k, so Hulk has always been a light hearted relief to me. I can apreciate some people want to play this as a properly competative game, and theres nothing wrong with that. So, in summary, it is I who must say sorry.

Chaplain Severus
23-09-2009, 00:36
First of all suggesting that the mission is fine the way it is, with one side having no chance of winning is just laughable. Plenty of other missions are balanced. Why can't this one be too? Even unbalanced scenarios can be fun, but mission 2 is just a slaughter, boring slaughter.

Mission 2 also does the game a grave disservice because it gives people the idea that overwatch is WAY too powerful, which it is not in well designed scenarios. Scenarios that have blind corners and multiple approaches for the genestealers to advance through.

So the genestealers can just lurk? As a marine I just stand at the end of the 14 space corridors on overwatch and wait myself. meaning the genestealers still have no way of winning and the game goes on for an infinite number of turns. Thrilling :(

It's a poorly thought out scenario. Stealers have no incentive to charge. Marines have no incentive to leave good defensive positions. Stupid.

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

Znail
23-09-2009, 00:48
So the genestealers can just lurk? As a marine I just stand at the end of the 14 space corridors on overwatch and wait myself. meaning the genestealers still have no way of winning and the game goes on for an infinite number of turns. Thrilling :(

It's a poorly thought out scenario. Stealers have no incentive to charge. Marines have no incentive to leave good defensive positions. Stupid.

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

The Marines can actualy do that in most of the missions as the general win condition for the stealers requires them to kill the marines, so setting up defences and staying put denies that pretty much indefinitly if you have a good defensive position.

Either way a stalemate would count as a draw in my book and that leads to the question if it can be considered an unbalanced mission if you actualy think that its in the best interest for the marine player to accept a draw?

Chaplain Severus
23-09-2009, 09:50
The Marines can actualy do that in most of the missions as the general win condition for the stealers requires them to kill the marines, so setting up defences and staying put denies that pretty much indefinitly if you have a good defensive position.


Not true. many missions require the marines to move to an area and kill something there, or recover something or activate something. Other missions also give stealers unlimited blips. Scenario two encourages the marines to do nothing but sit tight and shoot anything that moves on a map that is tactically unsuited for the stealers to attack on.


Either way a stalemate would count as a draw in my book and that leads to the question if it can be considered an unbalanced mission if you actualy think that its in the best interest for the marine player to accept a draw?

Best interest to accept a draw? Not sure what you mean by that statement. There are no rules for a draw or a tie. If the genestealers refuse to attack, the game devolves into a long boring waiting session until one person gets fed up with the total idiotic scenario and makes a tactically unsound move (Marines moving down the halls or genestealers moving up). To me that is not a scenario choice I want either player to make.

When I replayed the scenario I felt cheated out of 2 hours of my life :(

There was no joy in winning or losing this scenario, just disbelief at how lopsided it was.

So many better scenarios to play in Space Hulk . I hope to save people their 2 hours.

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

WildAnimal
23-09-2009, 10:13
Don't be so harsh. I've played it again with hidden blips rules and it was a whole other mission! it really worked out.

Hidden blips is the missing thing in 3rd edition. but the Deathwing rules for them works perfect.

Zenithfleet
23-09-2009, 11:20
I've only played this mission once, as the Genestealers, and I didn't find it too bad, but it's the only one out of the first five missions I'm not looking forward to playing again. The others were all nail-bitingly tense every step of the way, even without the timer (we haven't started using that yet as we're still learning the rules), but mission two was frankly dull.

I don't think I did too badly as the 'stealers though, considering I'm still a rank amateur at SH. I threw away a lot of them trying to wear down the assault cannon for no better reason than that it was the first time I'd seen it in a game and I wanted to try and make it explode. :D But I managed to get a good-sized force amassed in a side corridor and break through the Marine's perimeter. Managed to bust six Stealers into a room with Gideon and Goriel. Which Goriel then mowed down in the Marines' turn (he hit with every single shot).

I agree that infinite 'stealers would work better, to force the Marines to seal the entry points, but I haven't played enough SH to be sure yet.

Gdolkin
23-09-2009, 13:46
Hang on, I'm confused here..
I've not played any of the missions yet, in fact I've never played any edition of Space Hulk before, but I've got it and I've been trying to familiarise myself with the rules and missions etc while gradually cutting and cleaning the pieces..
The basic premise and layout of Mission II doesn't seem to make sense to me. If the objective for the marines is to "cover the junction and kill all aliens attempting to pass", why are both ends of the otherwise closed-off map ENTRY points for the Genestealers rather than one being Entry and one being Exit?
Where are the genestealers trying to get to if they're just bottling up the marines from both ends of the map?
How are the marines stopping them from getting anywhere if the genestealers already have access to both open ends of the map?
Presumably the genestealer entry points at both ends of the map would be connected off-map by mazes of corridors etc, so why don't they all rush off to the landing site leaving Gideon and friends guarding deserted corridors?
Even if the two ends of the map where genestealers enter aren't connected off-map, and represent two seperate/seperated 'sources' of genestealers, why isn't there any exit point somewhere on the map, between the two 'sources' of genestealers, which the marines could be guarding against them?
See how the whole mission and layout doesn't seem to match it's initial background description of being about the marines trying to hold genestealers back from crossing a crucial junction, i.e preventing genestealers from getting from somewhere they already are to somewhere they as yet are not? Am I missing something?

Besides that, I don't see how the imperative ISN'T on the marines to rush down the corridors and get within 6 spaces of the GS entry points, as that would enact the Mission-specific Area Secure rule whereby any GS or blips that would normally be forced to lurk for a turn are instead destroyed, which seems to me to be what "block all of the GS entry areas or destroy all the GS" calls for.. This seems a more sure way of achieving the objective than standing on Overwatch at the end of a long corridor, as surely some genestealers might well get through and tear you up? Don't let them get onto the board in the first place, right? Block up the source, then chase down any that got through in the process, right?
Is it because the GS player is limited to (IIRC) 9x1GS blips plus 9x3GS blips (so, maximum 36 genestealers for the whole mission) that marine players are choosing to just sit back and spray, when it seems to me they could be killing x-amount of GS per turn for no threat just by fighting their way to and then standing on the square that is 6 spaces from all 5 GS entry points, at each end of the map..?
Someone please explain all this to me, i'm a noob..

CoolKidRoc
23-09-2009, 14:16
Hang on, I'm confused here..
I've not played any of the missions yet, in fact I've never played any edition of Space Hulk before, but I've got it and I've been trying to familiarise myself with the rules and missions etc while gradually cutting and cleaning the pieces..
The basic premise and layout of Mission II doesn't seem to make sense to me. If the objective for the marines is to "cover the junction and kill all aliens attempting to pass", why are both ends of the otherwise closed-off map ENTRY points for the Genestealers rather than one being Entry and one being Exit?
Where are the genestealers trying to get to if they're just bottling up the marines from both ends of the map?
How are the marines stopping them from getting anywhere if the genestealers already have access to both open ends of the map?
Presumably the genestealer entry points at both ends of the map would be connected off-map by mazes of corridors etc, so why don't they all rush off to the landing site leaving Gideon and friends guarding deserted corridors?
Even if the two ends of the map where genestealers enter aren't connected off-map, and represent two seperate/seperated 'sources' of genestealers, why isn't there any exit point somewhere on the map, between the two 'sources' of genestealers, which the marines could be guarding against them?
See how the whole mission and layout doesn't seem to match it's initial background description of being about the marines trying to hold genestealers back from crossing a crucial junction, i.e preventing genestealers from getting from somewhere they already are to somewhere they as yet are not? Am I missing something?

Besides that, I don't see how the imperative ISN'T on the marines to rush down the corridors and get within 6 spaces of the GS entry points, as that would enact the Mission-specific Area Secure rule whereby any GS or blips that would normally be forced to lurk for a turn are instead destroyed, which seems to me to be what "block all of the GS entry areas or destroy all the GS" calls for.. This seems a more sure way of achieving the objective than standing on Overwatch at the end of a long corridor, as surely some genestealers might well get through and tear you up? Don't let them get onto the board in the first place, right? Block up the source, then chase down any that got through in the process, right?
Is it because the GS player is limited to (IIRC) 9x1GS blips plus 9x3GS blips (so, maximum 36 genestealers for the whole mission) that marine players are choosing to just sit back and spray, when it seems to me they could be killing x-amount of GS per turn for no threat just by fighting their way to and then standing on the square that is 6 spaces from all 5 GS entry points, at each end of the map..?
Someone please explain all this to me, i'm a noob..

I'd explain it, but you pretty much summed it up, without a real objective the marines can just sit there. That's why it's been suggested that the marines have to take the Stealer spawn areas and give the stealers unlimited numbers to help balance the mission.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-09-2009, 14:37
First of all suggesting that the mission is fine the way it is, with one side having no chance of winning is just laughable. Plenty of other missions are balanced. Why can't this one be too? Even unbalanced scenarios can be fun, but mission 2 is just a slaughter, boring slaughter.

Mission 2 also does the game a grave disservice because it gives people the idea that overwatch is WAY too powerful, which it is not in well designed scenarios. Scenarios that have blind corners and multiple approaches for the genestealers to advance through.

So the genestealers can just lurk? As a marine I just stand at the end of the 14 space corridors on overwatch and wait myself. meaning the genestealers still have no way of winning and the game goes on for an infinite number of turns. Thrilling :(

It's a poorly thought out scenario. Stealers have no incentive to charge. Marines have no incentive to leave good defensive positions. Stupid.

Interrogator-Chaplain Severus

What if you make the small change (rules-wise) of giving unlimited Genestealers and make the Marine's objective to seal the entry points?

Has anyone playtested this? Is it improving the mission?

eriochrome
23-09-2009, 14:40
I think the map has l2 lift like things(half circle tiles or those could just be dead ends) on it which might be where the stealers are trying to get access to.

Gdolkin
23-09-2009, 14:42
I'd explain it, but you pretty much summed it up, without a real objective the marines can just sit there. That's why it's been suggested that the marines have to take the Stealer spawn areas and give the stealers unlimited numbers to help balance the mission.
But, isn't that the stated objective for the marines? To block the entry points? Given the presence of the special Area Secure rule for this mission, whereby Genestealers cannot lurk and so any that are by an entry point that a marine enters within 6 spaces of are destroyed instead of being forced to lurk for a turn, isn't it intended that the marines need to close down the entry points in this way? Isn't that the point of the Area Secure rule? Is everyone really using the "or failing that, destroy all of the genestealers" option in the stated objective to hang back like cowards hosing down the corridors? ;) Seems counter-intuitive, counter-narrative, counter-productive and counter-fun to me..

Gdolkin
23-09-2009, 14:55
I think the map has l2 lift like things(half circle tiles or those could just be dead ends) on it which might be where the stealers are trying to get access to.
Aye, thanks, but we all know those are just dead ends.. Like I say, this mission still doesn't really conform to it's narrative of being about holding back the genestealers from passing through an area. The genestealers are converging on and bottling up the marines from both sides to kill them, not trying to get past them to anywhere they're trying to get to. Unless one of the 2 end-of-map entry areas represents a small advance scout force of Genestealers who have doubled back to help the main force of their brood fight through the marines trying to seal off their route i guess, but there's nothing in the background or setup or rules for this mission that suggests this interpretation. Sigh.

wilsongrahams
23-09-2009, 14:59
The marine's objective is to survive long enough to achieve their own, and with limited stealers, they can simply hang back and then achieve their own objective afterwards. The marine's have to either survive or seal the areas which allows them to survive. They do not HAVE to seal the entry areas. Playtesting of making this their objective has been done by myself over two battkes where I swapped sides so played from both, and I won as marines and as stealers so would say that this makes the mission fairer for both sides as long as you aren't a suicidal tactician!

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-09-2009, 18:39
Playtesting of making this their objective has been done by myself over two battkes where I swapped sides so played from both, and I won as marines and as stealers so would say that this makes the mission fairer for both sides as long as you aren't a suicidal tactician!

So you believe that unlimited Genetealers in this mission fixes it? If so, that's how I'll play from now on (haven't had a chance since this discussion started, although looking at the scenario the issues with it are very apparent).

Dexter099
23-09-2009, 23:39
Unlimited Genestealers does NOT fix the problem.

The thing with the marines is, they have to rush the Genestealer spawn points, but they need at least 3 guys to wipe a genestealer spawn area due to the number of twists and turns in them, so they have to set up a block-off on one side of the map with two or one of their marines with stormbolters, and move their guys from one side of the map to the other without leaving a large gap for the genestealers to break through while they are shifting about positions.

So it's very tactical, as you have to balance out falling back on one side of the map without losing a terminator there, so that you have enough to reduce casualties when you assault the spawn point there.

This makes mission 2 very tactical if you play it right.

Here's a tip for the genestealers- if you can, deploy the seargent in the room that is most separated from the others. Then, run your genestealers up there and try to take him out. If you don't get the chance to take him out, then at least you will be able to flank the marines when they come back to that side of the board to wipe the stealers out.

CoolKidRoc
24-09-2009, 03:53
It actually only takes one guy, I've run the left side with the autocannon by himself and then just sat him there. You can get there very fast and with so almost 100% kill rates per shot he is very lethal.

Then you can just send other four to the other location.

But all of that doesn't matter as currently the mission does not require the marines to even take the locations but to turtle and kill the stealers as they come to them.

Or turtle and because a draw be default of no one moving to be combative.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
24-09-2009, 16:12
Unlimited Genestealers does NOT fix the problem.

The thing with the marines is, they have to rush the Genestealer spawn points, but they need at least 3 guys to wipe a genestealer spawn area due to the number of twists and turns in them, so they have to set up a block-off on one side of the map with two or one of their marines with stormbolters, and move their guys from one side of the map to the other without leaving a large gap for the genestealers to break through while they are shifting about positions.

So it's very tactical, as you have to balance out falling back on one side of the map without losing a terminator there, so that you have enough to reduce casualties when you assault the spawn point there.

This makes mission 2 very tactical if you play it right.

You didn't explain why it doesn't fix things. I'm curious, since so far most people seem to think it DOES fix the problem. Why do you disagree?

wilsongrahams
24-09-2009, 16:47
So you believe that unlimited Genetealers in this mission fixes it? If so, that's how I'll play from now on (haven't had a chance since this discussion started, although looking at the scenario the issues with it are very apparent).

In my play test I used unlimited Genestealers and made the marine's objective to secure the entry points as sitting around all day won't work with unlimited stealers. This worked for me, whether others disagree is up to them.

Also, the Assault Cannon can't hold a corridor all on his own for the whole game as he'll run out of ammo. With only three Storm Bolter Marines, this is what makes this misison fun - with the extra stealers at least.

CoolKidRoc
24-09-2009, 17:22
Well not a corridor, but the assault cannon can take off and block one set of the entrances. :D

WildAnimal
25-09-2009, 10:16
Unlimited stealers will swarm the marines. while they secure the one end, they will mass up on the other, Really try yourself to play the mission with unlimited stealers... Atleast they should only get one blip per turn, not two.

But try the mission with unlimited stealer before sounding to smart.

CoolKidRoc
25-09-2009, 16:37
Unlimited stealers will swarm the marines. while they secure the one end, they will mass up on the other, Really try yourself to play the mission with unlimited stealers... Atleast they should only get one blip per turn, not two.

But try the mission with unlimited stealer before sounding to smart.

As it is now, it only takes 3 turns to secure one side and only 2 marines to do it if you push hard at the very beginning, which leaves 3 marines going after the other side, and more then enough turns before the unlimited stealers would even kick in. So saying that would make a difference doesn't really mean anything as you can mass stealers on one side all day long as it is now.

TheSil
25-09-2009, 17:12
We have always tried to seal the entry areas. Have played the map three times now. The Genestealers always won. If they manage to kill only one Marine (which is not that unlikely if you have to advance fast) your plans of sealing both areas are in great jeopardy and the Stealer player can always slow your advance down by blocking Gideon, threatening the Bolter Marines or simply draining ammo from the Assault Cannon.
If they manage to halt your advance on one of the two sides, you are in big trouble as the survivors on the other usually fail to fight off attackers from both sides... or hold one entry area with attackers swarming over you from the other.

One of the three games ended in a draw however as the last 4 Genestealers wouldn't attack the last surviving bolter Marine and vice versa

So I guess if the Marines try to seal at least one of the areas the game should be interesting and tight. Unlimited Stealers and the objective to seal both of them at all costs seems a bit harsh to me.


I guess playing in the spirit of the game and "trying to seal" but "if failing killing all Stealers instead" should be more than enough to have an entertaining mission.
After all if the sealing fails you are in trouble anyway, so why make it even harder for the Marine?

/edit: deleted that part.... now its back again...

If your Marine player can't be motivated to do so you can always change the victory conditions in another way...

example:
2 areas sealed -> marine victory
1 area sealed, all stealers dead -> marine victory
1 area sealed, mexican stand off -> draw (or: dice roll 1-2 Stealers win, 3-6 Marines win)
no area sealed mexican stand off -> Stealer victory, draw, dice roll, whatever you fancy
no area sealed all stealers dead -> draw (or: dice roll 1-2 Marines win, 3-6 Stealers win)
all Marines dead -> Stealer victory


that way the best the Marine can achieve without an area is a draw or a lucky dice roll, while he still doesn't HAVE to go suicidal through an unlimited wave of Stealers

GrogsnotPowwabomba
25-09-2009, 17:15
Unlimited stealers will swarm the marines. while they secure the one end, they will mass up on the other, Really try yourself to play the mission with unlimited stealers... Atleast they should only get one blip per turn, not two.

But try the mission with unlimited stealer before sounding to smart.

I'm just trying to propose ways to change the mission, not to "sound smart".

WTF is your problem? You can say you don't think it would work without coming across as an ass in the process.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
25-09-2009, 17:19
We have always tried to seal the entry areas. Have played the map three times now. The Genestealers always won. If they manage to kill only one Marine (which is not that unlikely if you have to advance fast) your plans of sealing both areas are in great jeopardy and the Stealer player can always slow your advance down by blocking Gideon, threatening the Bolter Marines or simply draining ammo from the Assault Cannon.
If they manage to halt your advance on one of the two sides, you are in big trouble as the survivors on the other usually fail to fight off attackers from both sides... or hold one entry area with attackers swarming over you from the other.

One of the three games ended in a draw however as the last 4 Genestealers wouldn't attack the last surviving bolter Marine and vice versa

So I guess if the Marines try to seal at least one of the areas the game should be interesting and tight. Unlimited Stealers and the objective to seal both off them at all costs seems a bit harsh to me.


I guess playing in the spirit of the game and "trying to seal" but "if failing killing all Stealers instead" should be more than enough to have an entertaining mission.
After all if the sealing fails you are in trouble anyway, so why make it even harder for the Marine?

If your Marine player can't be motivated to do so you can always change the victory conditions in another way...

example:
2 areas sealed -> marine victory
1 area sealed, all stealers dead -> marine victory
1 area sealed, mexican stand off -> draw (or: dice roll 1-2 Stealers win, 3-6 Marines win)
no area sealed mexican stand off -> Stealer victory
no area sealed all stealers dead -> draw (or: dice roll 1-2 Marines win, 3-6 Stealers win)
all Marines dead -> Stealer victory


that way the best the Marine can achieve without an area is a draw or a lucky dice roll, while he still doesn't HAVE to go suicidal through an unlimited wave of Stealers

Interesting. This might be a better way to do it, although I never like having dice rolls to determine who wins.

Hmmm....there has to be a way to fix this mission. lol :p

TheSil
25-09-2009, 17:24
yah, you know I edited it out shortly afterwards as it didn't seem that bulletproof to me anyway :D

but maybe someone can come up with something more sophisticated

might still work though

in the meantime I still say: at least try honestly to seal one area (as it is intended by the creators) and there should be no big problem with this mission

/edit: I think dice rolls are a bit dodgy too, but half the missions have them anyway, so... :P ^^

blagmasterg
25-09-2009, 18:27
I played this mission last night with a freind and we had to pause and finish it off today. I was marines and won, although I was down to my last 2 guys. I basially selaed off one end early on with Leon and Gideon. Meanwhile the GS all swarmed out the other end and killed off 2 marines in quick succession. The third (Noctis) held off a shedload of them valiantly before Gideon finally dashed up to help and get some more CC (he had been an absolute monster in the first half) only to get walooped by the second stealer he faced. Leon ended up finishing it with his AC. Was a damned good game tho, and I have to say that I love this mission.

torn
26-09-2009, 00:07
i found playing this as stealers even though by the end i knew i was going to lose simply because there was nothing i could do but run my guys at an overwatching marine, i still enjoyed playing the mission and taking down the marines one by one, knowing my resources were limited, added a challenge for me. I would not change it to unlimited stealers, but to have different marine victory conditions, or even alter the map so there are no long dead end corridors the marines can hide down.

Znail
26-09-2009, 01:12
2 areas sealed -> marine victory
1 area sealed, all stealers dead -> marine victory
1 area sealed, mexican stand off -> draw (or: dice roll 1-2 Stealers win, 3-6 Marines win)
no area sealed mexican stand off -> Stealer victory, draw, dice roll, whatever you fancy
no area sealed all stealers dead -> draw (or: dice roll 1-2 Marines win, 3-6 Stealers win)
all Marines dead -> Stealer victory

Good concept. But I think it should be somewhat simplified:

2 areas sealed -> marine victory
1 area sealed, mexican stand off -> draw
no area sealed, mexican stand off -> Stealer victory

all Marines dead -> Stealer victory
all Stealers dead-> marine victory

This is basicly how it works out if you switch sides as just defending as Marines despite being a 'draw' so would the other player have a pretty good chance of doing better at his turn as marines. Sealing one side is pretty easy for the Marines.

wilsongrahams
26-09-2009, 06:30
People didn't seem to agree with me that unlimited stealers is a simple fix so I have tried a different way of playing this mission and after my usual two play tests, swapping sides to see, it is just as effective.

Keep the standard limited Stealers and option to block entry areas but not a requisite, and deploy ALL marines in the central room, not spread out. This makes their job of getting good fire lanes much harder but if they can hold off long enough the stealer reinforcements stop.

What does everyone else think? BTW, has anyone else actually tried playtesting these options or just commenting without trying?

CoolKidRoc
26-09-2009, 14:52
Not yet, but I will be on Monday when I can get together with my friend again. For me I can see in my head how unlimited will be more fun, playing as marine or not because then you actually have an objective instead of rolling the dice again and again while the genestealers walk into your overwatch zone.

torn
26-09-2009, 18:23
Not yet, but I will be on Monday when I can get together with my friend again. For me I can see in my head how unlimited will be more fun, playing as marine or not because then you actually have an objective instead of rolling the dice again and again while the genestealers walk into your overwatch zone.

i think you make a very good point. this is a pretty boring mission for the marine player, as there isnt really any tactics involved other than getting into your firing lane and going onto overwatch. certainly not very much fun and quite a let down ofter mission 1 was so good.

Dexter099
26-09-2009, 19:21
You didn't explain why it doesn't fix things. I'm curious, since so far most people seem to think it DOES fix the problem. Why do you disagree?

Well, I was thinking that the Marines kinda have to complete their objective. After all, it is their mission, and the chapter master won't let them just sit around in the Space Hulk playing leapfrog.

wilsongrahams
26-09-2009, 19:50
The mission actually IS the marine's sitting around waiting for their next objective in the novel. Holding the perimeter would be boring work in reality.

torn
26-09-2009, 21:32
Holding the perimeter would be boring work in reality.

Unless you have just been conscripted into the imperial guards 47th Istvaanian Sun Chasers because of committing some lowly traffic violation and the line you happen to be holding is indeed very thin with genestealers on the other side.

CoolKidRoc
27-09-2009, 02:36
But the fact of the matter is I'm rolling dice and not looking down the barrel of a Bolter or Lasgun, which would make the mission much much more dramatic ;)

Grumblebelly
27-09-2009, 14:14
I think the best way to fix this mission would be to redesign the board. Perhaps a corridor between the isolated east room and the northern extension with the dead end which could extend further north to create a double corridor from the top section (sorry hard to explain these things)

I doubt they gave much play-testing to this mission, or perhaps they made it intentionally easy so bad marine players could feel good about themselves.

wilsongrahams
28-09-2009, 18:15
The mission was imported from 1st edition, and must have been played hundreds of times since then by the designers, and is actually harder now than in either of the previous editions, believe it or not. It's mission Two, yes it's easy - test your Stealer Abilities with it, or play another mission or just alter the victory conditions a little if your opponent agrees. I personally find Mission Ten just as easy as Two with just a little juggling of units as ammo is used up.

grg3d
28-09-2009, 21:03
Hi it was a whole lot different playing that scenario when the genestealers received the upgrades and got hybrids with range weapons,
no more just sitting their in overwatch as you could get shot before you got to take your overwatch shot....if you were in range

I really hope they redo "Deathwing and Genestealer"
I would prefer they didn't redo the psychic phase as that was soooooo broken

I'm sure if people look around the Internet they can find rules for the hybrids with ranged weapons I did :p

Then you will see there is no such thing as a boring scenarios :eek:

Glabro
29-09-2009, 07:46
We played this last night with me as the Marines. My friend got so pissed about the mission and my way of playing it (regrouping my disorganized marines in the middle rooms under the cover of assault cannon fire, while Gideon pushed on himself to secure the north entryways) that he doesn't remember when he ever got angrier. And no, he isn't the kind of player who gets pissed off often - it's very rare. And no, not for losing ( he probably wouldn't have even lost if we had played it to the end) but because it'd take a hell of a long time for the scenario to play out, and because he'd have to "camp out" and wait for it (he detests Mexican standoffs).

The sad thing is, I even remarked before the scenario started that this scenario seems bad for not having a time limit, but finite stealers. My intention was to attack, but my instinct made me want to regroup first...

A scenario that causes this much sadness is truly a horrible failure for the game designer. My friend told me that nine players out of ten would play it differently and attack outright without setting up overwatch, but I'm not too sure.

Anyway, the biggest failure of the mission is that the designers replaced the original mission's winning requirement of killing 30 stealers with a finite number of blips totalling 30 stealers. I think everyone can see what a major difference this is and a huge handicap to them.

Of course, replacing the flamer with the assault cannon is problematic as well, but is balanced out by having Gideon, who can't shoot, replace a sergeant. Even though getting through Gideon on Guard might be murder, it might be worth it to simply charge him with ten stealers as killing him is really useful for opening up attack lanes and reducing command points.

So, I think the best way of changing the mission is simply to do as Leon would do: make it all about the kill count. With infinite stealers, either end the mission at 30 kills or keep on playing until the marines die, and record the kills. Whoever kills more 'stealers wins the mirror match.

You could turn the mission background around while you do this. Here's the 1st ed setup:
"The Marine player is clearly doomed. It is only a matter of time before it is destroyed by the numberless forces of rampaging Genestealers. To a man, the Marines have one overriding desire: to take out as many Stealers they can before they go down. The Stealers merely wish to destroy the Marines with minimal casualties."

That's quite different. With this in mind, you could give the Genestealers infinite blips (with 2s in), but a time limit of 25 turns to kill all Marines or lose.
(Ignore kill count if the Genestealers time out for mirror match purposes: nobody wants to see the Stealer player camp out the whole game to avoid losing a single Stealer)


So in summary, infinite blips with 2s in, marines need to kill 30 to win, but play out until either all the marines die or 25 turns pass. Swap sides and compare kills to see who won. If the Stealers ran out of time, treat the kill count as 100.

It is, as one poster thought the mission was, quick and brutal, favouring the marines, but certainly not as frustrating as the original.

Znail
29-09-2009, 12:32
(...) while Gideon pushed on himself to secure the north entryways (...)
Gideon is rather bad at that so you either was very lucky or your opponent made a mistake. Gideon is ok while using Guard, but he needs alot of luck to bash his way through Genestealers.

The Assault Cannon is alot better at clearing a path.

Glabro
29-09-2009, 12:53
He made a mistake in not sending enough stealers there, yes. Only two. However, that was hardly the point of my post. And let me re-iterate that he didn't get angry over losing, because he didn't.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
29-09-2009, 13:22
My friend told me that nine players out of ten would play it differently and attack outright without setting up overwatch, but I'm not too sure.

If 9 out of 10 players are playing to lose, then yes, this is true. But a smart Marine player will not do this, and that is where the mission fails.

torn
29-09-2009, 14:59
the way this mission was written originally yes it is all about overwatch and i would think 9/10 players would make firing lanes and set themselves up defensively.

glabro i like your ideas. Putting more objectives onto the stealers is a good idea. The only thing is even having 25 turns to kill all the marines doesnt change the fact that a marine can get into a practically unkillable overwatch position.

CoolKidRoc
29-09-2009, 15:31
the way this mission was written originally yes it is all about overwatch and i would think 9/10 players would make firing lanes and set themselves up defensively.

glabro i like your ideas. Putting more objectives onto the stealers is a good idea. The only thing is even having 25 turns to kill all the marines doesnt change the fact that a marine can get into a practically unkillable overwatch position.

exactly, it's the marines that need a reason to actually move out of the 12+ space firing lanes that makes it impossible for a stealer to get to them in a turn, but instead takes 2+ turns if they survive to reach a marine

Glabro
29-09-2009, 17:32
Don't forget that this was in 1st ed too, but with the 30 kills goal. It was liked back then. The real problem is the improved overwatch rules, and that's why the Stealers simply need more Stealers. Maybe more blips per turn? 2 per each side?

The idea was that the Marines are swamped by Stealers on all sides and prepare to die with honour.

torn
29-09-2009, 17:53
i think upping the blips might help, 3 to start and 3 per turn, with all the blips being used (not just the 1's and 3's) might put a bit more pressure on the marines and make them want to come out of hiding.

Glabro
29-09-2009, 18:21
Errr....so you think that upping the number of blips but keeping them finite would make the marines attack? Isn't it the opposite?

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 18:41
The idea was that the Marines are swamped by Stealers on all sides and prepare to die with honour.

Was it? I thought the objective of 'Exterminate' was to go and kill all the genestealers.

torn
29-09-2009, 18:48
Errr....so you think that upping the number of blips but keeping them finite would make the marines attack? Isn't it the opposite?

lets face it the marines are a defensive force in space hulk, and mission 2 is a defensive mission. the only way i can see them becoming an offensive force would be to say they had so many turns to seal off the bulkheads or they lose.

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 19:26
A turn limit wouldn't matter there as the Marine's don't want to hang about anyway, as every turn the A-cannon is running out of ammo and making their job harder. As I stated earlier, making the stealers infinite and making the marine's seal the entry areas solves this mission fairly. Imposing a turn limit as well just makes it harder for them.

Glabro
29-09-2009, 21:57
Was it? I thought the objective of 'Exterminate' was to go and kill all the genestealers.

Well, the background text for 1st ed is on the last page. Read into it what you will.

Grumblebelly
01-10-2009, 14:07
The bottom line is that if the marines do not have to move they have a massive advantage. The marines should definitely be forced to close off the stealer entry area.

gitburna
01-10-2009, 15:54
Why not just accept that its a mission that "the marines" will normally win, and play by the double header method... decide the winner by whichever player can kill the stealers faster / can seal off the most entry areas / can kill the most terminators or whatever way is mutually agreeable.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
01-10-2009, 17:38
Why not just accept that its a mission that "the marines" will normally win, and play by the double header method... decide the winner by whichever player can kill the stealers faster / can seal off the most entry areas / can kill the most terminators or whatever way is mutually agreeable.

Because there is nothing lamer in Space Hulk than a mission that is easy for the Marines...

Grumblebelly
03-10-2009, 00:31
I agree the whole point of space hulk is to create a feeling of tension and impending doom for the marine player.

wilsongrahams
04-10-2009, 08:19
Play with one marine and you will feel doomed...

Grumblebelly
05-10-2009, 05:43
You would be able to win this mission with 1 marine with a storm bolter if you put him in the isolated room and over-watched the corridor.

Thoth
05-10-2009, 06:52
You would be able to win this mission with 1 marine with a storm bolter if you put him in the isolated room and over-watched the corridor.

If there were even a couple of genestealers left, that lone marine would be slaughtered once he's been turned to one side or the other with a single attack. Even if he rolls a 6, and you triple-1 your attack roll, you just took his eyes (and gun) off the entrance.

CoolKidRoc
05-10-2009, 13:50
If there were even a couple of genestealers left, that lone marine would be slaughtered once he's been turned to one side or the other with a single attack. Even if he rolls a 6, and you triple-1 your attack roll, you just took his eyes (and gun) off the entrance.

that'll never happen because you'll never get close enough to him, lol

wilsongrahams
05-10-2009, 14:18
You sure? A continuous swarm of stealers? Marine's would be hard pressed to kill six stealers a turn even with full command points (no repick) and so the horde will slowly close on him each turn until he's torn apart...

btw, the isolated room is the one with only one entrance so the marine would not need to turn to face other models as seems to have been implied above.

I'm playing this tonight to see how it goes, just because it sounds like an amazing last stand...

CoolKidRoc
05-10-2009, 20:26
You sure? A continuous swarm of stealers? Marine's would be hard pressed to kill six stealers a turn even with full command points (no repick) and so the horde will slowly close on him each turn until he's torn apart...

btw, the isolated room is the one with only one entrance so the marine would not need to turn to face other models as seems to have been implied above.

I'm playing this tonight to see how it goes, just because it sounds like an amazing last stand...

haha, that does sound like a good last stand, but I know a couple of the rooms have 10 plus squares of LOS to get to them which would give you plenty of time to kill those stealers before they reached you.

wilsongrahams
06-10-2009, 10:03
Hey, as I said, I tried the one lone marine idea just to see. Sure enough the Stealers stayed away until they were swarmed up ready to charge up. Most turns the Marine blasted them on overwatch even when jamming as he had plenty of cp's to clear it.
However, when he did not kill the stealer, the others got up behind him, and then in the marine turn he failed to clear them all and so the next overwatch round was even more desperate. They still never reached him, but after five turns of this, one got through and killed him - Kill tally nineteen to one. Not bad for the marine with the longest field of fire. However he did have all the command points to himself - I'd drop this if you want to try it yourselves.

CoolKidRoc
06-10-2009, 19:48
Lol that's pretty funny.... was pretty much the way the games went when I played this mission with 5 guys, there would be one covering one hallway and one covering the other, with 12+ stealers lined up and them just being blown to bits.

Maybe next time you should set the marine goal at 20 kills and if so he wins ;)

:D

wilsongrahams
07-10-2009, 18:22
Better idea - use Brother Leon and set the kills needed to win at twenty one...

Thoth
10-10-2009, 09:19
that'll never happen because you'll never get close enough to him, lol

Funny, I won this mission as the Genestealer player just the other day by doing exactly this.