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wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 10:15
I know the 1st ed rules for these and never liked them - chaplains were too powerful and captains no different to a sergeant.

With no chance of changing the timer I have thought about a couple options for other wargear and character options. Let me kno which ones you like most please.

Chaplain
Option 1 - +1 Close Combat, Reroll CP (As Sergeant), Storm Bolter, Crozius

Option 2 - +1 Close Combat, +1 CP (Max 6), Storm Bolter Crozius

Crozius - As Power Fist or as Thunder Hammer? (No bonus, +1 Bonus)

Captain
Option 1 - +2 Close Combat, Reroll CP, Storm Bolter, Power Sword or Power Fist and Grenade Launcher

Option 2 - +2 Close Combat, +2 CP (Max 6), Storm Bolter, Power Sword or Power Fist and Grenade Launcher

Grenade Launcher - As Psychic Storm Area Effect, 6 Ammo. 12 Range. (Actually same as Flamer but not persistent and kills on 4+)

Cyclone Launcher - (personally I don't intend to use this but like to be complete!) As flamer but unlimited range, 12 shots, not persistent. Counts as two models - you replace the heavy and another model to have this model.

torn
10-09-2009, 10:56
i was going to have the captain add an extra minute to the timer, but i use a digital one. I wouldnt have extra command points as it would really unfavour the stealer, the marine player knowing he has 3 free moves every turn. I like the power fist and grenade launcher idea (very classic) but i would limit it to 1 or 2 shots. 6 might just be too powerful.

and the chaplain i would have just used as a sergeant, treating the crozius as a power weapon. if you want him to be better than a sergeant maybes giving him a 5+ or 6+ save to show a) he has a refractor shield and b)he just doesnt want to die.

AndrewGPaul
10-09-2009, 10:58
I know the 1st ed rules for these and never liked them - chaplains were too powerful and captains no different to a sergeant.

Were there rules for Chaplains in 1st edition?

IIRC, Captains gained +2CPs, +1 in melee and additional time, over and above a sergeant (so a Captain with power sword gained D6+2, parry in melee).

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 11:18
Yeah, I don't have them to hand right now but I believe they gave a ridiculous bonus such as any marine in an adjacent square could reroll any dice or something. Will post it again later.
I'm now thinking a Chaplain should be a cross between Gideon and Lorenzo, so maybe as Lorenzo but +2 and no parry. No reroll for CP though.
I am agreeing that extra CP is too much though.

AndrewGPaul
10-09-2009, 11:54
Do you recall where they were published?

grg3d
10-09-2009, 12:45
Hi at work :angel: have played SH since it first came out so I'm old and my mind is going.....

So

I don't ever remember getting to use a Chaplain

Captain's I do remember

+2 to CP's
+2 to Combat dice (only rolled 1)
parry due to power sword
grenade power fist with two kinds of ammo
crack 2+ to kill, 8 shots only range 12 or less
plasma 3+ to kill 8 shots only,range 12 or less stayed burning until end of turn
[*} added time 30 seconds

I'm pretty sure the plasma was a dice roll to see if it went away also it melted a hole in the floor and was treated like the ladder down was on a 1 the marine fell never to be seen again

AndrewGPaul
10-09-2009, 13:16
+2 to Combat dice (only rolled 1)

IIRC, it was +1 for being a Captain, and +1 for having a power sword. Sergeants got +1 if you upgraded them to a power sword, too.

KroSha
10-09-2009, 13:28
I'd say that a Crozius should count as a power sword and get Parry & +1; they're both big sticks with an energy field. So maybe give a Chaplain an additional +1 CP to represent his motivational qualities, along with +1 in CC (experienced, like a Captain?)

So: +1CP
+2 CC score
Parry due to Crozius
Storm Bolter

FerociousBeast
10-09-2009, 13:42
For the captain, how about "draw two command point counters, take highest." That's similar to the sergeant's re-roll but much more reliable.

Inquisitor Kallus
10-09-2009, 14:04
For the captain, how about "draw two command point counters, take highest." That's similar to the sergeant's re-roll but much more reliable.

Excellent idea, represents his greater tactical acumen extremely well. Chaplain could possibly allow all marines a re-roll in c.c as long as he is still alive. I dont see him being a better tactician though, and he should probably not get extra c.p.s . Also treat him as a sergeant, +1 to roll

GrogsnotPowwabomba
10-09-2009, 14:15
I like the idea of Captain giving more time to the timer. I agree CP should never go over 6, and I think the Crozius should be treated just like a power sword.

nedius
10-09-2009, 14:26
You could emulate the chaplains 'litinies of hate' by allowing an adjacent (or sharing board section) terminator who is not on guard to re-roll his CC dice in the first round of combat. A chaplain could do the same - so would get a re-roll in their first round of CC, whether on guard or not. Any subsiquent attacks are as normal. Models on guard are unaffected.

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 14:29
With only the standard timer I think for myself (You can do as you wish) I will use the 2 couters for CP as it isn't too powerful but is reliable.

I agree that the Chaplain should be similar to the Sergeant but don't want him the same or with a parry as he has no sword. I think maybe have +1 CC for Chaplain and +1 for Crozius for +2 total. The Crozius is therefore the same as a Thunder Hammer but he has a storm bolter instead of the shield. With no CP bonuses etc I think this doesn't make him too powerful - although using the 1st ed points system this would now make him equivalent to two marines - about right. Will think more on this. Keep up the ideas!

grimcrazy
10-09-2009, 14:39
the metal chaplain is such a great model. i was going to use him as a replacement sergent.

the old deathwing captain had a grenade launcher on his powerfist!
don't think they ever did an old chaplain model...

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 15:05
There was the 2nd ed 40k one but not a space hulk chaplain model. I have recently bought the new metal one for use in space hulk too, hence why i am now looking at rules that are balanced.

AndrewGPaul
10-09-2009, 15:19
the old deathwing captain had a grenade launcher on his powerfist!

That was a generic Captain, wasn't it? Not specifically Deathwing.

torn
10-09-2009, 15:49
yeah he came in the metal terminators box which was painted as blood angels. just a generic terminator.

goroul
10-09-2009, 17:30
Love the ideas, how does the attatchment look for a write up?

Goroul

AFnord
10-09-2009, 17:41
How about this for the chaplain:

+1 on all close combat rolls
Storm bolter/crozius arcanum
Crozius arcanum: Gives +1 on the close combat die roll
Every terminator on the same board section as him (not counting himself) gets a +1 on all close combat rolls. Thus the TH/SS terminator gets a +3 on all close combat rolls.

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 18:37
I think that would be a little too powerful with the bonus to other troops, but the rest is about perfect I'd say - it still leaves room for the captain to be a little better then. I'm going with +1 Chaplain, +1 Crozius, for now and will test that before deciding any more. One option I am considering for a Captain rather than +2 in combat which makes him too powerful is to say he's always on guard without spendingthe points? Makes him a little better to the front.

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 18:41
I like the reference sheet. Very happy with it. The only thing I'm not too sure about is the cost to fire the grenade launcher but it couldn't really be any less. Maybe 1ap to fire but cannot be fired on the move? Otherwise the marine is spending 2ap to turn 90 degrees. that way it still costs the same but the marine isn't moving in slow motion?

goroul
10-09-2009, 18:56
Yeah, I wasnt sure about the whole moving and firing idea.

I suppose the "slow motion" moving could account for dealing with recoil on your wrist mounted grenade launcher, or just careful aiming with the high explosive shot- the aim isnt to breach any potentially exterior walls after all!

Goroul

wilsongrahams
10-09-2009, 19:03
I suppose this could easily be solved by saying 1ap to fire, or fired on the move but costs 2ap to reload after each shot?

goroul
10-09-2009, 19:18
Hmm,

my only worry then is that the weapon begins to become too complex as you not only have to keep track of the number of shots fired but if it has been reloaded as well.

I know it doesnt sound like much, but I just feel it begins to detract from Space Hulk's basis of nice, simple rules.

Shall give the idea some thought though!

McPherson
10-09-2009, 19:34
I had another idea for the Chaplain.

Keep the basic stat's as a Sargeant with a powersword/stormbolter (Crozius is just a power weapon after all) And then modify the Broodlords tough to kill rule for close combat.

Refractor Field : When attacked the attacking genestealer must score 2 successes in a single attack to kill the chaplain.

It makes for a very tough to kill character that isnt going to be boosting the Marines squad that much more than a sarge, but it also encourages players to lead from the front with the chaplain, he's the one character your most expecting to survive a few rounds of close combat against stealers (parry + Guard + Refractor field = a slow moving block) However it isnt going to be attacking much more than a regular terminator.

If you want to balance it out slightly remove the sargeants ability to redraw the CP counter to represent the chaplain being more interested in sticking it to the enemies of the imperium rather than careful planning.

Math-hammer wise it should give the chaplain a much higher chance to 'survive' combat but not a higher chance of 'winning' as the stealer is swinging with 3 dice, if the stealer wins with one the combat is an effective win but with no casualties (better than regular terminator) If the stealer wins with 2 or 3 the chaplain dies (same as a regular terminator) However the only way the chaplain win is still if it beats all three of the stealers dice (same as a regular terminator) The +1 gives it an edge like any combat veteran (sarge) but thats already balanced out since GW thinks thats ok.

Way I see it a terminator chaplain woul dplant himself at a vital crossroads to stem the genestealer advance while the rest complete the mission, fighting against impossible odds to survive long enough for the mission to be achieved.

- McPherson

goroul
10-09-2009, 19:49
Nice idea, essentially a combat varient of the Broodlord's "Hard to Kill" (if I'm reading right!)

Does make him very hard to kill then though, I might be tempted to keep a +1 to the number of CPs each turn but to loose the Parry ability.

Any further thoughts?

McPherson
10-09-2009, 19:51
Essentially yes exactly that - its using an already established rule with very few modifications so its not really 'changing' space hulk much and it creates a new unique character for the marines.

As for the CP modification, thats entirely down to you - I figured if your getting a tough to kill melee veteran (something the marines lack in SH) there must be a flipside, loosing the reliability of their CP bonus seemed the easiest thing :)

- McPherson

goroul
10-09-2009, 20:45
A quick re-hash to include rules for the Chaplain's rosarius at the cost of the parry ability.


@McPherson, I can certainly see where you are coming from, I quite like the idea of using the Chaplain/Captain as a replacement for the Librarian in a mission or two, so I think keeping them as both hard in combat but also giving a benefit to the rest of the squad is fitting. :)

Goroul

Malakian
11-09-2009, 11:11
Chaplain

Storm Bolter
-Crozius +2 to combat rolls, 1dice
-Rosarius, Genestealer must beat Chaplain's score with two dice to kill him. If only one of the Genestealer's scores
is higher then the combat is a draw. Brood Lords mighty blow negates rosarius' powers.
-Zealous, Can't re-draw CP counter
-Litanies of Hate, All terminators including himself on same map section, count as being on guard*
*Guard affects on your own turn too and you don't benefit from spending AP to set marines on guard. Marines
affected by Litanies of Hate can be set on overwatch.

Captain

Storm Bolter
Power Sword +2 to combat rolls, parry
Grenade Launcher, range 12, 1Die, 4+kills, Section Effect, 6 Shots
Commander, Draw two command point counters, take highest

these guys need balancing

PeeKay
11-09-2009, 12:37
My thoughts are:

Captains - would replace a Sergeant (or 2 Sergeants to solve some balance issues?)
They need to provide extra tactical options and drawing 2 CP counts is a great idea.
Combat veteran so +2 to CC.
Armed with Power Sword (Parry), Storm Bolter and Grenade Launcher. It takes 2 AP to fire, effects section, range 12, auto kill and no reload. I don’t like the idea of giving a character 2 fire methods but providing a one shot auto kill is a balance and easy to track.

Chaplains – I do not know any of the 40K rules for them but I understand their place on the battle field.
He replaces and Marine with Storm Bolter and Power Fist
He is armed with Storm Bolter and Power Fist.
Does not provide tactical options (no CP changing).
Are not combat veterans so no CC modifiers.
No reason to be harder to kill.
They need to provide a boost to the squad so something like +1CC to all SM (bit too powerful) or Last Rites, should a Marine be killed by CC then that Marine may re-roll CC die (this can only be done once) for a last chance or Faith in the Emperor, reroll 1 die for Storm Bolter or Assault Cannon shot.

Malakian
11-09-2009, 12:42
Intakilling grenade launcher is a bit off. Since librarians Psychic storm kills models on a section with 4+ and you can use it no more than 6 times in a scenario if you spend all your psi to that. So Captains grenade launcher shouldn't be any better than that.

You should read rules for Chaplains since they are the close combat monsters of space marine armies. They need to be harder and better in close combat holding their own.

Chaplains use rosarius, not Power fists.

Read the rules I say.

I feel that Librarian should be replacable by a captain or a chaplain

wilsongrahams
11-09-2009, 12:52
Ooh I had an idea for the chaplain after reading one of the above posts - and also from other thread about guard and close combat marines - maybe allow a marine within 6 squares to count as being on guard if he attacks a genestealer? Otherwise a close combat marine is always on the defensive ?

PeeKay
11-09-2009, 12:56
I don’t have access to the rules so I can not check.

However, I am coming more from game design view rather than the fluff that has been set out by GW. In reality, Chaplains are non combatants and provide church services (in the British Army). They are not even armed. I thought it would be more apt to bring that to Space Hulk. Instead of the church it would be faith in the Emperor

Malakian
11-09-2009, 13:05
This is no British Army. This is Adeptus Astartes where Chaplains are furious Melee combatants that inspire battlebrothers with fate of emperor. Better stick with the fluff.

goroul
11-09-2009, 13:20
Chaplain

Storm Bolter
-Crozius +2 to combat rolls, 1dice
-Rosarius, Genestealer must beat Chaplain's score with two dice to kill him. If only one of the Genestealer's scores
is higher then the combat is a draw. Brood Lords mighty blow negates rosarius' powers.
-Zealous, Can't re-draw CP counter
-Litanies of Hate, All terminators including himself on same map section, count as being on guard*
*Guard affects on your own turn too and you don't benefit from spending AP to set marines on guard. Marines
affected by Litanies of Hate can be set on overwatch.

Ok, so I like mighty blow negating the Rosarius,

Litanies of hate is also good, but I think it's too much if the Chaplain is D6+2 (with a gaurd re-roll) needing the stealer to beat his roll twice. Perhaps D6+1 and the Litanies?

Zealous, nice idea, suggesting the Chaplain overuling / putting some fire into any Sgts with him. Perhaps cant re-draw but does add +1 to total CPs(max 6)- representing them not exactly rethinking tactical decisions, but being inspired to more heroic deeds?

Goroul

Malakian
11-09-2009, 13:25
Ok, so I like mighty blow negating the Rosarius,

Litanies of hate is also good, but I think it's too much if the Chaplain is D6+2 (with a gaurd re-roll) needing the stealer to beat his roll twice. Perhaps D6+1 and the Litanies?

Zealous, nice idea, suggesting the Chaplain overuling / putting some fire into any Sgts with him. Perhaps cant re-draw but does add +1 to total CPs(max 6)- representing them not exactly rethinking tactical decisions, but being inspired to more heroic deeds?

Goroul
Yeah I'm not sure about the D6+2 neither, I wish some one could count the odds for chaplain with rosarius with no bonus against a stealer. And then again with +1 and +2 bonus and finally with guard + all the +1/+2 bonuses. It would help too if sum1 would tell me how to do it.

Yes, Chaplain would overrule all Sgts with him. I'm not into adding +1 to cp becouse I like to keep it as Librarians special ability, manipulating the CP pool.

goroul
11-09-2009, 13:29
I suppose another reason for keeping the Chaplain at only d6+1 is that it keeps the +2 for the Captain who (as master of the Chapter's first company) should be hard!

I like the reasoning for keeping the CP medling to the Librarian though, I hadn't thought of it like that.

Goroul

-edit, another thought is how about representing the rest of the Company's command staff, i.e. Apothecaries and the new Company Champion

Malakian
11-09-2009, 13:39
Hmm.. I was also thinking should we actually keep the old grenade launcher rules. They arn't stated in the new editions of 40k anyways. So Why not to modernize the captain wargear too?
How would blood angels captain be equipped? with a Pair of Lightning Claws?

goroul
11-09-2009, 13:51
I think I'm quite happy with the Captain's grenade launcher- feels like the Aux. Grenade launcher in Codex Space Marines.

As for other Captain equipment options I'm not sure, scaling everything along would mean a Captain would be 2d6+3 with lightning claws- but then again he is meant to be scary!

I suppose its just about getting the balance right, he needs to be hard enough to pose a threat to the Broodlord (esp. if he's designed to replace the librarian in missions), but at the same time not unbalance combat away from being the stealers' domain..

Goroul

wilsongrahams
11-09-2009, 14:33
Remember in 2nd ed 40k a Terminator Captain with lightning claws had 4 S8 Attacks against a Genestealers 4 S7 Attacks. The Captain then had 3+ on 2D6 Save against the genestealer -3 modifier and the stealer had 5+ 1D6 with a -5 modifier. The Captain totally owned stealers in combat. Plus he had three wounds to boot.

For this reason I am happy having a Captain being hard as nails whilst still in line with how easily terminators die in space hulk. Apothecaries etc are same stats as a terminator so would have no bonuses apart from a save marine maybe, a standard bearer would grant some other ability but also be the same in combat. A chaplain should +1 in combat like a sergeant, and a captain +2.

goroul
11-09-2009, 15:16
Ok, updated Reference Sheet including...
Captain (power sword+storm bolter)
Captain (power fist+storm bolter+aux. grenade launcher)
Captain (lightning claws)
Chaplain
Apothecary
Company Champion

Champion and Apothecary probably need some work, I agree the apothecary can try to save marines nearby, but lacks a proper power fist so is marginaly worse in combat. The Champion only uses a d6 in combat but thanks to his power sword and storm shield gains parry and block.

Thoughts?

Goroul

wilsongrahams
11-09-2009, 19:35
I agree with almost all of this. I may use the Rosarius a little differently like saying the stealer loses draws instead to make it a little weaker though.
Adding the grenade versus broodlord bit was a good choice too. I'm already planning my - assassinate mission..

I think it's a great idea to run these things by other players to get them more balanced and fair and to have a different perspective.

Any thoughts on a standard bearer now?

goroul
11-09-2009, 22:11
I'm still not sure about a standard bearer, I can't imagine a 12 foot banner is a very practical thing to drag into a Space Hulk!

It might make a good objective though.

torn
11-09-2009, 22:29
I'm still not sure about a standard bearer, I can't imagine a 12 foot banner is a very practical thing to drag into a Space Hulk!

It might make a good objective though.

yeah i think its important to remember when coming up with new marines that they wont be bringing everything into the hulk. Reading the novel you find the the terminators have to go back to the breaching point to visit the techmarines and re-arm, so i imagine the apothecaries are there too.

Also in the cramped confined space some weaponry just isnt viable, like cyclone rocket launchers, and probably any heavy weapons for power armoured marines.

I do agree a banner, one that might have been lost on the old hulk they find or something like that, would be a pretty good objective.

Malakian
12-09-2009, 11:09
I don't think that terminators would bring apotecharies to the missions, even Chaplains and Captains are especially rare.

There is some balance issues with the characters though.

Librarian can beat broodlords ass, but only if it has enuff psi to do that. In Missions, Broodlord wont be used untill genestealer player is sure that librarian isn't a big threat. So Librarian is a counter for broodlord but can run out of fuel.

I think no character should have more than +2 bonus to CC, becouse it would make them pretty much untouchable by the stealers. +3 Cc bonus is ok to fight broodlord but it's overkill for stealers. We need to find balance.


I agree with almost all of this. I may use the Rosarius a little differently like saying the stealer loses draws instead to make it a little weaker though.


Problem with that rule is that it doesn't simulate protection at all. It's more like a boost to Chaplains combat skills rather than some energy shield.

wilsongrahams
12-09-2009, 11:24
I was thinking of using evry terminator i have in a campaign and therefore keeping track of losses and so i might have to use the characters - or assume the aliens breached the safe zone and they are havinbg to fight? Also apothecaries need to go to the fallen to retrieve the geneseed as they can't walk back!

What I want to make next is a large hangar section to use as a deployment area with maybe four of five doorways leading into corridors, and a 'shelf' outside the power field over the opening that could be used as an exit point? I'm thinking 15 squares by 8 at the moment to avoid being too large even if not big enough for most hangars. The open area will be just like the wide corridors in detahwing. Great fopr marines against loads of blips! I think it'd need breaking up into sections for when using the flamer though - 5 x 4 squares maybe?

Malakian
12-09-2009, 11:33
I have started thinking that Litanies of Hate with these rules don't actually reprecent the Chaplain. With these rules you want to have some better close combat specialist infront of him. Chaplians are the ones that go in first and never the last. They should give some benefits to others by leading the force with such religious fury.

goroul
12-09-2009, 11:45
Also apothecaries need to go to the fallen to retrieve the geneseed as they can't walk back!

Just why I thought Apothecaries may be needed, having rules for them even facilitates missions to collect geneseed from fallen terminators before the stealers can eat it. I was however thinking it should cost 1ap/cp to use the Apothecaries' narthecarium rule.

In regards to the litanies of hate I think they work well enough, perhaps the rule only applies when the Chaplain is involved in a close assault until the start of the next marine turn? I wouldnt want to make it too complex is all.

Goroul

FerociousBeast
12-09-2009, 16:32
I don't think apothecaries should be used in Space Hulk. A fight in a space hulk is too fast-paced for an apothecary to be able to get to downed terminators, remove armor, heal injured part... etc. Plus, if a genestealer topples a terminator, it's not going to stop ripping until the terminator is beyond an apothecary's help.

Champion's a good idea though. I always loves me some sword+shield action. But, to make him competitive with the sergeant, I'd give him D6+1. He doesn't have a storm bolter, after all.

wilsongrahams
12-09-2009, 16:54
An apothecary could always use the same rules for waking up brothers from misison six. Just state that he has to reach them in the turn after they fell else they become comatose or something? Then just lay them down as they die but allow movement over them - just like the disabled and fallen marines in the novel, but they are back up and fighting later.

goroul
12-09-2009, 21:14
Ok a quick update to the reference sheet.

Champions are now D6+1 Parry, Block- it seemed to work well in a test game, showing the Champion as an excellent fighter yet not a leader like the sgts.

Thinking about what has been said regarding taking the company Apothecary into the Hulk, I'm still not convinced he wouldn't join Terminator teams, but I do think it to be correct that he would be unable to administer any medical help to a Marine pulled down by a stealer the crampt confines of the Space Hulk whilst wearing terminator armour.

However I do think they would look to recover a fallen Marine's gene-seed. As such I propose a different rule to providing a save, namely that if a Marine is killed in the same segment as the Apothecary then the Marine player gains one command point (or moves the counter one space back).

I suggest this as it represents the Apothecary saving the gene-seed and bolstering the will/nerve of the squad with him by seeing this process, so engrained in a marine's psycology, still taking place.

What do you guys think?

FerociousBeast
14-09-2009, 15:09
Here's an idea for terminator characters and point costs (assume either 10 or 20 points per game):

Apothecary w/ Narthecium (reclaim fallen terminators' geneseed for special mission objectives), storm bolter, power glove -- 1

Captain w/ Commander (draw two, pick highest), storm bolter, power glove (D6+2), grenade launcher -- 6
Captain w/ Commander, storm bolter, power sword (D6+2, parry) -- 6
Captain w/ Commander, lightning claws (2D6+3) -- 6
Captain w/ Commander, thunder hammer & storm shield (D6+3, block) -- 6

Champion w/ power sword & storm shield (D6+1, parry, block) -- 4

Chaplain w/ Inspire (+1 CP, up to 6 max), storm bolter, crozius arcanum (D6+1, no parry) -- 4

Librarian w/ Psyker, storm bolter, force weapon -- 5

Sergeant w/ Sergeant (re-draw CP), storm bolter, power glove -- 3
Sergeant w/ Sergeant, storm bolter, power sword -- 4
Sergeant w/ Sergeant, thunder hammer & storm shield OR lightning claws -- 4

Terminator w/ storm bolter, power glove -- 1
Terminator w/ thunder hammer & storm shield OR lightning claws -- 1
Terminator w/ heavy weapon, power glove -- 3

Znail
14-09-2009, 18:18
Here's an idea for terminator characters and point costs (assume either 10 or 20 points per game):

Apothecary w/ Narthecium (reclaim fallen terminators' geneseed for special mission objectives), storm bolter, power glove -- 1

Captain w/ Commander (draw two, pick highest), storm bolter, power glove (D6+2), grenade launcher -- 6
Captain w/ Commander, storm bolter, power sword (D6+2, parry) -- 6
Captain w/ Commander, lightning claws (2D6+3) -- 6
Captain w/ Commander, thunder hammer & storm shield (D6+3, block) -- 6

Champion w/ power sword & storm shield (D6+1, parry, block) -- 4

Chaplain w/ Inspire (+1 CP, up to 6 max), storm bolter, crozius arcanum (D6+1, no parry) -- 4

Librarian w/ Psyker, storm bolter, force weapon -- 5

Sergeant w/ Sergeant (re-draw CP), storm bolter, power glove -- 3
Sergeant w/ Sergeant, storm bolter, power sword -- 4
Sergeant w/ Sergeant, thunder hammer & storm shield OR lightning claws -- 4

Terminator w/ storm bolter, power glove -- 1
Terminator w/ thunder hammer & storm shield OR lightning claws -- 1
Terminator w/ heavy weapon, power glove -- 3

I think these numbers are pretty close to the my ideal, but some dissagreements still. Main ones are that the heavy weapons and Librarian is a undervalued and I think the heroes are slightly overvalued. I would also like to give the Apothecary some kind of rule that has a slight effect in the game. And the normal Apothecary has a tool that looks like a mini-chainfist to open up powerarmors so it makes sense for the Terminator one to have a chainfist to be able to open up Terminator armor. I think the Chaplain is not quite as good as a sergeant so he needs a bit of a boost to reach that. So I would modify those to be like this:


Modified terminator characters and point costs (assume either 10 or 20 points per game):

Apothecary w/ Narthecium (reclaim fallen terminators' geneseed for special mission objectives),(himself, adjecent or Terminators on same boardsection that lose close combat with 1 gets a draw instead), storm bolter, chain fist -- 2

Captain w/ Commander (draw two, pick highest), storm bolter, power glove (D6+2), grenade launcher -- 5
Captain w/ Commander, storm bolter, power sword (D6+2, parry) -- 5
Captain w/ Commander, lightning claws (2D6+3) -- 5
Captain w/ Commander, thunder hammer & storm shield (D6+3, block) -- 5

Champion w/ power sword & storm shield (D6+1, parry, block) -- 3

Chaplain w/ Inspire (+1 CP, up to 6 max), storm bolter, crozius arcanum (D6+2, no parry) -- 3

Librarian w/ Psyker, storm bolter, force weapon -- 10 (he realy is a monster!)

Sergeant w/ Sergeant (re-draw CP), storm bolter, power glove -- N/A
Sergeant w/ Sergeant, storm bolter, power sword -- 3
Sergeant w/ Sergeant, thunder hammer & storm shield OR lightning claws -- 3

Terminator w/ storm bolter, power glove -- 1
Terminator w/ thunder hammer & storm shield OR lightning claws -- 1
Terminator w/ heavy weapon, power glove -- 5
Obviously so wont everyone agree with me. There is also the diffrent maps and missions to consider as some may favor diffrent loadouts. Pure numbers also matters so in some missions so would the special equipment matter less and it would be alot better to field simply larger number of basic Terminators. So it might be a good idea to set a limit on how many bodies may be included. This would be simple for excisting missions as you can just say that you cant have more Terminators then the original force, but can use the points as you wish within that limit.

wilsongrahams
14-09-2009, 22:30
Any thoughts on Dreadnoughts then? Like Space Crusade maybe?

Weasel-Fierce
14-09-2009, 22:42
I really don't think the board sections are big enough to warrant the presence of a Dreadnought. Space Crusade had a much more open layout, so their presence was slightly more understandable, but I just don't think you could justify it here.

Don't get me wrong, I love Space Crusade, too (it's what got me into the hobby), I just think it would perhaps be stretching the limits a little.

wilsongrahams
15-09-2009, 07:24
Not necesarily, the deal is because I wanted to field my entire first company which has three dreadnoughts and I'm making a hangar section to use with space hulk. Dreads would be a good defence here. With an assault cannon, storm bolter and power fist the rules are halfway there. A dreadnought would occupy two or four squares I'd say, and with 4ap's, but apart from forward movement would be very slow to turn, say 2ap per 90 degrees. Using some kind of hard to kill as the broodlord it wouldn't be too tough either - needs to be made weaker than 40k to remain in balance with how easy to kill terminators are. I didn't want a super powerful unit, just a chance to use it full stop for completeness. I never had space crusade so don't know what the rules are in that.

Obviously a dreadnought would have plenty of ammo for it's assault cannon and has extra cooling so won't explode so I'd be tempted to just not worry about keeping track of ammo and say it'll never explode. They seme the perfect choice to hold the marine's landing zone.

Weasel-Fierce
15-09-2009, 10:23
Ah, I see - sounds much more feasible. Have you seen the Space Crusade board sections? They were 4 square shaped boards that combined together in different ways, but most had 2 square wide corridors and fairly sizeable rooms. Might give you some inspiration for your project.

grg3d
15-09-2009, 11:33
I like the lay out you have done for the summary sheet, were you planning on having / including the captian with a thunder hammer and storm sheild?

goroul
15-09-2009, 12:38
I like the lay out you have done for the summary sheet, were you planning on having / including the captian with a thunder hammer and storm sheild?

Sure, I shall add one in later.
"1D6+3, Command, Block" looks about right


Goroul

Znail
15-09-2009, 13:54
I think the main balancing thing for including a Dreadnaught would be limited access and that it cant be everywhere at once. A mission map could include some rooms and wide corridors that it can walk around in, but another part of the map should probobly be normal sized corridors that it cant reach. So it could protect a room and possibly peek into a small corridor as fire support.

Assault Cannon and Heavy Flamer (the Stormbolter wouldnt actualy do anything unless you used ammo for the AC) would make it realy nasty to even get close for stealers! Considering the wave of stealers needed to even get close so would 2D6 and Hard to Kill be quite sufficient close combat protection for it.

I guess the Heavy Flamer needs to hit 3x3 squares in any extra large rooms.

goroul
15-09-2009, 14:22
Updated Ref Sheet to include Thunder-Hammer+Storm Shield Captains.

Dreadnaughts sound interesting
I like the idea of them being 2d6, Hard to kill in combat- perhaps add mighty blow as well?
4aps
Can't benefit from Command Points as they are big lumbering machines,
assault cannon (10-20shots?, cant reload) overwatch+sustained fire, storm bolter.
Cant move backwards or sideways.
Move forward 1ap
Turn 90 degrees 1ap
overwatch/guard 2aps
close assault 1ap
fire weapon 1ap
Cant open doors- auto destroys in close assualt

Probably something else I have missed...

Goroul

AndrewGPaul
15-09-2009, 14:36
Obviously a dreadnought would have plenty of ammo for it's assault cannon and has extra cooling so won't explode so I'd be tempted to just not worry about keeping track of ammo and say it'll never explode. They seme the perfect choice to hold the marine's landing zone.

That seems reasonable. In fact, in 2nd edition, Dreadnoughts got ro re-roll jams on sustined fire dice for precisely that reason.

grimcrazy
15-09-2009, 15:28
There were special rules for dreadnaughts in Space Crusade 'mission drednaught' when they got extra huge.

Something like they had to hydrollically lower themselves to fit through doors and couldn't shoot.

grimcrazy
15-09-2009, 15:29
'Hydraulics' :)

Znail
15-09-2009, 15:33
I like the idea of them being 2d6, Hard to kill in combat- perhaps add mighty blow as well?

Ah, my mistake, Mighty Blow was the rule I was thinking of. Would probobly need some new rule instead of Hard to Kill if enemy shooting is included.

goroul
15-09-2009, 15:50
Being a vehicle its tricky to think how hard the Dread should be. If he had the hard to kill and mighty blow rules in combat then the stealers would effectively be needing to beat the Dread's average of 7 twice!

Then again removing the hard to kill rule in combat (and keeping it just for shooting) makes the Dread less survivable in combat and just as vulnerable to shooting as the Broodlord. I think this is probably the way to go- a dread might be a fearsome close combat machine on the battlefield, but it really isnt suited to corridor fighting.

So 2d6, mighty blow, regular (non-combat) hard to kill?

I still think the assualt cannon should have ammo, but double the capacity of a terminator's cannon (so 20 shots) with no reload/jam/explode rule. Along with a storm bolter- for overwatch the player would have to state which weapon is going on overwatch. A heavy flamer would be a lil overkill, but certainly an option.

Other than that I think the limited movement ability and inabilty to use CPs that I suggested earlier demonstrates the Dread's significantly hampered, and allready inferior, agility aboard a hulk.

Goroul

Znail
15-09-2009, 16:08
Ah, Hard to Kill only works against shooting for the Broodlord, so it would be the same for the Dreadnaught. A Dreadnaught should probobly be more durable then that, but it depends on what kind of shooting that can show up on the stealer side. It would be immune to basic boltguns, so those are ok. Its only somewhat wierd that Stormbolters and Assault Cannons could kill it relatively easily, but thats only a problem if those are the weapons that it could face in the first place. Personaly so do I think that any stealer (or any replacement opponents) shooting should be rare if ever.

An idea if the Dreadnaught needs to be more durable is to give any opponents a -1 penalty to any dice rolls when trying to harm the Dreadnaught. That means that Stormbolters would be unable to harm it without Sustained fire and then only a 1 in 36. It would also give it an effective +1 in close combat and +2 vs the Broodlord. This might work out fine too as I dont think the Dreadnaught should realy be afraid, but rather be limited in what it can see and shoot in a turn.

goroul
15-09-2009, 16:12
What if shooting attacks against the dreadnought had to add one to the required kill roll? i.e. a 5+ would become a 6+ etc. A storm bolter could therefore only destroy a dread whilst on sustained fire with a double 6.

Goroul

FerociousBeast
15-09-2009, 16:18
I didn't get much comment when I posted before, but I disagree with the apothecary and chaplain as they are in goroul's reference sheet.

I would make the apothecary a normal terminator (i.e. not D6-1), and use his narthecium only for special mission objectives. For example, "Squad of terminators wiped out deep in the hulk; apothecary, retrieve their geneseed!" Anything else just doesn't jive to me with the fast-paced, brutal combat in a space hulk.

The chaplain I would make very similar to the sergeant, but he wouldn't get parry and would instead add +1 to the CP draw. This can be used in conjunction with the sergeant or captain bonus, so it would really make including a chaplain worth it! In conjunction with a captain, you'd be guaranteed of scoring at least 3 per turn. I like the rosarius rule, but I would drop the zealous and litanies of hate rules.

goroul
15-09-2009, 16:25
I would make the apothecary a normal terminator (i.e. not D6-1), and use his narthecium only for special mission objectives. For example, "Squad of terminators wiped out deep in the hulk; apothecary, retrieve their geneseed!" Anything else just doesn't jive to me with the fast-paced, brutal combat in a space hulk.

The chaplain I would make very similar to the sergeant, but he wouldn't get parry and would instead add +1 to the CP draw. This can be used in conjunction with the sergeant or captain bonus, so it would really make including a chaplain worth it! In conjunction with a captain, you'd be guaranteed of scoring at least 3 per turn. I like the rosarius rule, but I would drop the zealous and litanies of hate rules.

Fair comments, I'm not 100% sold on the Apothecary as he is either, I certainly like the notion of using him as a special objective completing model-but think he should certainly remain at d6-1 for combat, after all he isnt toting a powerfist but a glove adapted for removing gene-seed. As for a secondary special rule I'm still undecided.

The chaplain went through a couple of re-writes, I too like the rosarius rule and was orriginaly sold on the idea to allow him to +1 to the CP draw. This was eventually removed and replaced by litanies and zealous to differenciate him from the librarian a little more- who has the CP meddling precognition rule.

I'm certainly open to further debate however. What is it that you don't like about zealous and the litanies?

Goroul

Znail
15-09-2009, 16:26
What if shooting attacks against the dreadnought had to add one to the required kill roll? i.e. a 5+ would become a 6+ etc. A storm bolter could therefore only destroy a dread whilst on sustained fire with a double 6.

Goroul

That would be pretty much the same as what I mentioned as giving opponents rolls -1 works out the same as raising the needed number +1. It wouldnt affect close assault, but thats ok as that may not be needed anyway. I think it (either way we formulate it) is a good idea to simulate the Dreadnaught being difficult to kill with 'weak' weapons. A Carnifex would work well using the exact same rule too.

If Dreadnaughts (and other big uns) needs more durability in close combat so would I be inclined to make up new rule like it needs to lose by an extra +1 or +2 to be destroyed and we get a tie else. Ofcourse, it may just be easiest to give them extra close combat bonuses.

goroul
15-09-2009, 16:31
That would be pretty much the same as what I mentioned as giving opponents rolls -1 works out the same as raising the needed number +1. It wouldnt affect close assault, but thats ok as that may not be needed anyway. I think it (either way we formulate it) is a good idea to simulate the Dreadnaught being difficult to kill with 'weak' weapons. A Carnifex would work well using the exact same rule too.

If Dreadnaughts (and other big uns) needs more durability in close combat so would I be inclined to make up new rule like it needs to lose by an extra +1 or +2 to be destroyed and we get a tie else. Ofcourse, it may just be easiest to give them extra close combat bonuses.

Hah, I suppose you are right with the +1/-1 bit, for some reason it didnt click in my head!

Durability in close combat i think is fine being left with 2d6 mighty blow, I'd rather that the Dread was a lil more vulnerable in combat as, once a stealer/whatever is on him, crawling over, under,round etc and ripping out vital cables/rending clawing him I don't imagine the dread would have much chance, espcially in the close confines of the Hulk.

Goroul

FerociousBeast
15-09-2009, 17:47
I'm not sure why being able to kill a dreadnought with a shooting attack is being discussed here... genestealers don't have shooting attacks! :p

@goroul, RE: zealous and litanies.

Zealous conflicts with adding +1 to the CP roll, and I don't quite see the fluff justification either. As far as comparisons to the libby goes, the libby's CP bonus requires use of a psychic ability, of which he can use only one per turn. If he doesn't have psy points, or if he uses the barrier or storm, then he can't use the CP bonus. So I see them as similar but different enough to warrant both.

Litanies I think is beginning to stray too far into making the chaplain into the 40k chaplain. Plus it seems pretty overpowered to me. You wouldn't need to put those terminators on guard, and they'd get the benefit of guard even when attacking.

Space Hulk to me is a game of individual terminators facing down hordes of aliens, rather than a squad-based game like 40k, and so I don't really think the chaplain's squad buffs are completely appropriate. Which incidentally also relates to my thoughts concerning the apothecary.

Oh yeah, and about the apothecary... a Deathwing terminator with apothecary upgrade retains his power fist (if he was equipped with one to begin with).

Here's one final idea for the apothecary: make him a normal terminator, but with the addition of the narthecium. If he can make it to an adjacent square of a terminator killed in the genestealer turn, roll a D6 for 2 AP. On a 6 the terminator is healed and back in action. If the next turn goes without a heal attempt, or if anything other than a 6 is rolled, remove the terminator from play. He might not be dead, but he isn't fighting again any time soon! Apothecary costs 1 point (same as a normal terminator), but can only be taken if the Captain is in the mission.

goroul
15-09-2009, 18:11
@ FerociousBeast

Ok, sort of going for the Devils Advocate role then lol..

Zealous, disallowing the squad to re-pick CP tokens- in effect over-riding the Sgt's ability.
Fluff justification: The Chaplain, a figure of religious fervour, not necessarily intent upon sound tactical positoning as much as fiercly engaging the enemy at all costs, preferably in the thick of things where he can beat the Emperor's fury into his enemies. Not only does this affect him, but those around him, perhaps clouding otherwise sound tactical decisons, perhaps even the Chaplain's status would overide the squad Sgt.
Game Affect: Provides a significant downside to the Chaplain's other abilities, notably the Litanies rule.

Litanies of Hate, basically giving the Guard ability to Marines around the Chaplain.
Fluff justification: Linked to the Chaplain's zealous nature marines are imbided with righteous fury, smighting the Emperor's enemies with renewed wrath.
Game Affect: Hopefully inspires a more combat orientated style of play (compared to normal) from the Marine player, something that seemed important to differentiate between a Chaplain leading the mission as opposed to the Librarian. It may seem overpowered, but the intent after all is for the Chaplain to be a viable alternative to taking the Librarian or Captain.

I agree entirely that Space Hulk is more a game of individuals than of squads, but these individuals must still work as a team to achieve their mission- particularly evident if you play with one player per marine.

In regards to the Apothecary, yeah the Deathwing one does keep his powerfist, but the aim of giving the Apothecary a combat difference just seems to help differenciate him from a normal marine making him more of an individual, and perhaps justifies why he needs significant protection during any gene-seed recovery mission.

For a compromise on the Chaplain, the Litanies could be removed and replaced with the Inspire (+1 to CPs), so a Chaplain lead mission couldnt re-draw CP tokens but does get a bonus to what they do draw.

goroul

-edit, just saw your Apothecary idea edit, I definatly like the only being usable if the captain is around. As for healing Terminators in the Marine turn it becomes a little tricky if the stealer has moved into the fallen Marine's square / whatever. It could be done for Command Points in the stealers turn however, as opposed to Action Points in the following Marine's turn.

Znail
15-09-2009, 20:42
You obviously needs to clear away any Stealers guarding their catch to do it. I dont see that as a problem realy. Obviously, if you can manage to do it during the stealer turn with CP's so would that also work.

I still like the idea of chainfist for the Apothecary as he needs his can-opener to do his work :angel: and I think he should be 2 points.

A bit of a sidetrack from the thread of closecombat odds so have I noted that the Th/Sh is notably worse then dual LC's if used by the same person, ie, a private, sergeant or captain will do alot better with LC compared to Th/Sh. So there needs to be a points cost difference.

wilsongrahams
16-09-2009, 13:17
I think a Dread is hard enough with mighty blow and 2d6 attacks as it can pretty much keep most of the stealers away as it is and any that can get close should stand a reasonable chance of pulling the plug on it.

The stormbolter can be ignored i think, as having negligible benefit. It helps to simplify too. If the dread can only go in it's room or hangar anyway, then you could say with it's height it cannot see down the corridors and so has no effect on the rest of the hulk, but can stand in the open holding one area pretty well.

I think an apothecary should have a chainfist as the power armoured one has a smaller version. With the powerfist bonus and maybe a special mission to recover the geneseed this would make the apothecary a mission specific model rather than an extra powerful marine for any mission.

wilsongrahams
16-09-2009, 13:19
the block of a storm shield versus the extra attack of lightning claws - both depend on the actual dice rolls. A storm shield is better for attacking in your own turn, butlightning claws are best used on guard in my experience.

Znail
16-09-2009, 13:34
the block of a storm shield versus the extra attack of lightning claws - both depend on the actual dice rolls. A storm shield is better for attacking in your own turn, butlightning claws are best used on guard in my experience.

Its actualy the other way around! Th/Sh is rather poor when attacking as only rolling one dice makes unfortunate deaths rather likely. But dual LC is better on guard or not thou. Note that we got a sergeant with Th/Sh and a private with dual LC, so the sergeant is still better in the default game. But its not be that large margin. The dual LC sergeant is about twize as good as the Th/Sh one, so its not a small margin I am talking bout here. So I would reconsider the costs of Sergeants like this (need to think about captains):

Sergeant w/ Sergeant, thunder hammer & storm shield -- 2
Sergeant w/ Sergeant, storm bolter, power sword -- 3
Sergeant w/ Sergeant, lightning claws -- 4

Hmm, Th/Sh might be too cheap due to the redraw of CP option. But I havent checked out the probabilities of the power sword yet and I suspect its not much worse off then the Th/Sh.

WildAnimal
16-09-2009, 15:51
Why Chaplains? Captains are enough I think.

But how are you going to get Captains and Chaplain into the game? Force list? or replace sergeants?

And please, if the captain need to have an Grenade launcher, then nerf it ALOT. maybe 2 shots, Flamer rules, 4+ kill or something. Anyway, it should not be a super weapon just an add-on.

goroul
16-09-2009, 17:33
You obviously needs to clear away any Stealers guarding their catch to do it. I dont see that as a problem realy. Obviously, if you can manage to do it during the stealer turn with CP's so would that also work.

Makes sense, how should the rule be worded? Proof-reading my dissertation is slowly... hurting my.. word.. making.. ness!


But how are you going to get Captains and Chaplain into the game? Force list? or replace sergeants?

The idea with Captains/Chaplains is to allow for some custom scenarios to be built up around them, or even to replace the Librarian in the regular campaign. As such they need to be at least as capable as the Libby with all his powers, the Captain possibly even harder- he is the master of the first company after all!

Goroul

FerociousBeast
16-09-2009, 18:03
You can do custom scenarios built around the characters, or you can use the point system I advocated earlier. Which is inspired by GW's point system for SP way back in the day (from the Deathwing supplement I think?), though I don't remember its details.

Basically you can play 10 or 20 point games. 10 points boils down to one squad; 20 is two squads. Or, you can mix and match the different terminator types using the point values provided.

You could bring to a 20 point game:
- two classic squads [Sergeant w/ sword (4 pts), 3 terminators w/ PF, SB (3 pts), 1 terminator w/ PF, HW (3 pts) = 10 pts]
- a classic squad and a couple characters [Captain (6 pts) and Chaplain (4 pts)]
- a retinue squad [Captain (6), 3 terminators (3 pts), 1 terminator w/ HW (3)] and a storm bolter squad [1 sergeant (4), 4 terminators (4)]
- a single command squad [Captain (6), Chaplain (4), Librarian (5), Company Champion (4), Apothecary (1)
- etc.

wilsongrahams
17-09-2009, 17:28
Chaplians because I have a model for one and want to use it! Same for all the rest as I have half of a blood angels first company.

These are either for points value swaps using suggestions here and the 1st ed points system with tweaks, or with newly created misisons I intend to make and test before printing out etc.

I'd never say that a thunder hammer is half as good as lightning claws. My reasoning here is that both have basically the same effect on chance. Lightning claws give a marine two dice against three, but a thunder hammer gives one against two. This makes a thunder hammer 67% chance of winning whereas the lightning claws is 54%. This is because whilst a thunder hammer marine reduces the odds of the genestealer beating him, a lightning claw marine does not reduce this but only increases his own chance, but against three dice this bonus to the marine is less than the seemingly equivalent bonus the thunder hammer marine has.

I agree that when guarding, this then makes the lightning claws up to 71% but does not actually change the thunder hammer marine's chances of winning as he can also roll worse or the same as his previous roll. I got the guarding part wrong...

Despite this, I'd still have a captain armed with power sword and storm bolter over the other options available. Just because it feels right to me.

FerociousBeast
17-09-2009, 17:44
It's very complicated to compute the probabilities of the TH v. the LCs, but it can be done. I don't remember the exact figures, but it boils down to something like 58% chance of a thunder hammer terminator (NOT sergeant) of surviving a round of combat (either by winning or drawing), and 71% chance of a lightning claw terminator surviving. Those numbers don't take guard into account, because guard hopelessly muddies the waters. It's still possible to compute, but more difficult than I want to do. You can approximate it by just saying LC has three dice and TH has two, but that's not strictly accurate.

The number of dice the genestealer can throw doesn't matter if the terminator rolls either a 5 or 6 (remember the +1). Genies can throw 1,000,000 dice, but he still loses if I roll a 6 and draws if I roll a 5. So the number of genie dice aren't as important as the number of chances I get to make that 5 or 6. With a thunder hammer this is 1/3, with a lightning claw it's 5/9.

This doesn't take into account the possibility of not rolling either a 5 or 6 yet still winning, although those 58% and 71% figures do. This is just meant to demonstrate that the extra D6 the LC gives makes it superior to the block ability the TH/SS gives.

Znail
18-09-2009, 00:10
As FerociousBeast said, probability does quite work out like its even, althou those two weapons arent realy that difficult. The real challange lies with Powerweapon and Guard! Then you have two not always obvious choises to make and as a bonus so doesnt only the highest stealer dice count, but the second highest can come in as it can be higher then the forced reroll from parry.

As for the problem with inequality so can we either make some rules modification or adjust costs/force makeups with the quality in mind. Adjusting costs are easiest I think althou it does make for a bit of trouble in that you realy need to get more then 1 Th/Sh terminator as replacement for 1 stormbolter one. Atleast so should you get 3 for 2. If a rules change is wanted then I would suggest a change to Block to make it better. I actualy thought it first was an improved Parry and you could cancel the highest roll from the stealer and that change should make Th/Sh alot better. I could calculate the effect of that rules change if people want to consider that option.