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daemonkin
16-09-2009, 11:19
Hi guys,

Anyone out there from 1st edition have any rules that could be adapted to use other races in Space Hulk?

Looking primarily for Tau, Eldar, Orks and Necrons. Just love the idea of a squad of stealth suits bolting down a corridor with 'stealers hot on their tails.

D.

grissom2006
16-09-2009, 11:30
Planning to work on sets for both Eldar and Tau. Tau will include steath suits, but the CC for Tau will be a big down. Eldar will be mostly Aspect Warrior based but restricted to Scorpions, Banshee's and Fire Dragons maybe dire Avengers. Currently working on new floor plans and and updates of the older missions first though.
Kind of can't help but want to put Tau in the game after all their doors are in the game. :D

Despoiler
16-09-2009, 11:44
i think necrons would be a cool adversary for termis. probably only warriors, scrabs and maybe tomb spyders tho. then we could do campaigns simulating boarding actions against a tombship.

also imperial guard storm troopers or vets just for that 'colonial marines feel' (it would also give me an excuse to convert some drones from the genestealers...)

azraelezekiel
16-09-2009, 12:39
Try this for necrons
http://www.necronhulk.co.uk/

Also a quick search on the web will bring up loads of rules for 1st ed other races.
Harlequins rock ;)

daemonkin
16-09-2009, 12:47
Yeah Azrael I have already done that a few times and Harlies do indeed rock. I was looking more for Tau and since they were not around back then someone may have come up with rules in between. I also imagined a squad of scorpions, maybe with a fire dragon backing them up entering a hulk.

Kinda cool.

Was thinking maybe 5AP for eldar instead of 4, 6 seems a little too much. Eldar could share the same abilities for 'free' firing as they move like marines. I don't think Tau should get that. Any thoughts?

D.

azraelezekiel
16-09-2009, 12:52
Another one
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~tezzajw/
But still no tau :<

azraelezekiel
16-09-2009, 12:54
Or this one
http://spacehulk.barsoom.cc/ressurected/eth/enter2.html
With tau :)

azraelezekiel
16-09-2009, 12:57
I do think GW are missing a trick here.
It would not take much effort to port over the existing races.
It then encourages people to buy bit of each race to play different type games in the hulk.
This might then lead on to people expanding those few squads into entire armies.
That is how I started and my mate has just done it with Dark Eldar.

Same goes for the old tilesets from 1st and 2nd edition not to mention ASC.
Having a tyranid vessel in the centre of a massive hulk is great fun.

daemonkin
16-09-2009, 13:03
That last one is a great site. Will look more into that tonight. Seems just a little tweak would be needed to play the other races using these rules.

D.

grissom2006
16-09-2009, 14:05
Or this one
http://spacehulk.barsoom.cc/ressurected/eth/enter2.html
With tau :)

Nice but Broadsides and Crisis battle suits seem a little to far as they are in a limited space.

daemonkin
16-09-2009, 14:13
Yup which is why I woud limit it in our games to stealth and fire warriors.

Also, stealth suits look far cooler, sort of imagine them to be Predator-esque when they go stealth.

D.

AndrewGPaul
16-09-2009, 14:13
There might be issues connecting the Advanced Space Crusade boards to the Space Hulk boards. the Space Hulk boards have the joins on the edges of squares, while the Advanced Space Crusade boards have the joins in the middle of squares. This means you can connect them to the Space Hulk boards by the edges with 2 joins, or by the edges with one join, but not both (at least, you can't link adjacent sides of the Advanced Space Crusade boards with Space Hulk board sections).

Znail
16-09-2009, 15:06
Was thinking maybe 5AP for eldar instead of 4, 6 seems a little too much. Eldar could share the same abilities for 'free' firing as they move like marines. I don't think Tau should get that. Any thoughts?
Actualy, Terminators get to shoot for free as they are stabilised even when moving, this isnt true for Eldar or even normal space marines. So I could see most other races losing out on that option. Its difficult to balance things out as it is as the Terminators die horribly to Genestealers in assault, so its not realy much of a balancing factor to make other races die even more horribly!

azraelezekiel
16-09-2009, 15:25
There might be issues connecting the Advanced Space Crusade boards to the Space Hulk boards. the Space Hulk boards have the joins on the edges of squares, while the Advanced Space Crusade boards have the joins in the middle of squares. This means you can connect them to the Space Hulk boards by the edges with 2 joins, or by the edges with one join, but not both (at least, you can't link adjacent sides of the Advanced Space Crusade boards with Space Hulk board sections).

You mean like this ;)
http://spacehulk.beckerf.de/
http://spacehulk.beckerf.de/assets/images/SH_Muroco1.jpg

eriochrome
16-09-2009, 15:37
What would Stealth suits get to roll in close combat 1d3, 1d6-1, 1d6-2? Burst cannons would be pretty nasty but how would you add the stealth affect since stealers have no shooting maybe have the tau be blips also that are only shown when the stealer gets within 6 spaces as a real tau or a dummy. Ofcourse if you shoot you will know that one is real.

azraelezekiel
17-09-2009, 20:25
A quick report on a termie v Dark Eldar V Stealer game.
So tonight due to time restrictions we played the mighty hulk instead of our usual warmaster game.
I made a roughly equally balanced 2 player hulk with entry points for stealers as a 3rd player.
I used every tile in the box with 2x5 entry points for players 1 & 2 at opposite ends of the hulk with 4 rooms in the centre.
I played 1 squad of termies with 1 lightning claw, 1 thunder hammer, 1 sgt, 1 AC and a standard termie.
My mate played 1 squad (10) of Dark Eldar warriors so he was outgunned points wise 2:1.

The objective was a treasure hunt, search the 4 rooms for a CAT and an ancient relic.
Other discoveries where stealers and nothing, determined via dice roll.

Each player could also use CP's to move blips (but this got cumbersome and needs modification) as our third player was busy putting monkeys to bed :)
The problem with this was that once I moved a blip towards my enemy he then moved it away using his CP's in his turn. When in fact once on the board the blip/stealer should have done it's upmost to move towards the nearest enemy. I will have to revisit the deathwing solo rules again.

The game was a blast with the termies getting wiped out just as they found both items.
The dark eldar managed to get to the room with 3 warriors still alive, but mounting stealer numbers sealed their fate.

Whilst the game stumbled a little to start with, once my mate got his head around the DE rules it really rolled along quickly and even though he didn't make it off of the ship with the items and had half the points that I did he did a great deal better than the Emperor's finest ???

Now off to try and source some cargo bays for our rescue the dreadnought mission next time :)

CRasterImage
18-09-2009, 22:37
Couple of quick questions for those with 40k rule books for 'Nids and Space Marines:

What are the win / loss odds for 40k close combat engagements between Terminators and Genestealers?

How do those odds compare to Space Hulk's odds?

(don't give too many details, since that would be illegal. Just the results)

Znail
18-09-2009, 23:12
Couple of quick questions for those with 40k rule books for 'Nids and Space Marines:

What are the win / loss odds for 40k close combat engagements between Terminators and Genestealers?

How do those odds compare to Space Hulk's odds?

(don't give too many details, since that would be illegal. Just the results)

40k has little relation to Space Hulk when it comes to balance. Terminators actualy beats Stealers in close combat in 40k. So its rather difficult to try and port the diffrent races as Space Hulk is balanced around being a fun game more then fitting in with 40k.

StefDa
18-09-2009, 23:26
On a basis of fluff, anything roughled man-sized should die if it gets mauled with a power fist, which is true in Space Hulk. Anything should die if a Genestealer gets its claws into it, which is true in Space Hulk. If you win, you kill the other dead. That way, it translates well. But with 40k balance in mind, not so much.

CRasterImage
19-09-2009, 00:06
Thanks for the replies. They confirmed what I suspected.

So, here are my thoughts:

Trying to cram Imperial Guard, Orks, Eldar, and whatnot into Space Hulk's rule set is not the best way to go about this.

Writing a whole new rule set would be the better way to go.

Space Hulk works because of this simple philosophy: Diametrically opposed tactics.

You have a situation where one side:

- Has infinite units
- Has hidden movement / unit count
- Moves fast
- Has no ranged weapons
- Is superior at Close Combat

While the other side is the opposite:

- Has limited number of units
- Has transparent positioning
- Moves slowly
- Has, and prefers, ranged weapons
- Is inferior at Close Combat

The tactics that these two groups will use, will be completely opposite of the other. Which is why I called it "Diametrically opposed tactics". Both players are trying to play a different game than the other. They wrestle with the situation the units are in, in order to favor their side's tactics. This is where the "game" is, and why Space Hulk is so unique, successful and fun. (and, oddly, balanced)

Compare this design to other games where both sides have the exact same units. Both sides employ the exact same tactics agaisnt each other. The "game" is about who can do that better than the other.

Sure, the Space Hulk rules distort the units' capabilities (speed, attack abilities, etc..) to match the game mechanic paradigm that they had set up.

Which is fine.
For Space Hulk.

But if you want to bring in all of the Warhammer 40k races and units, you will be bringing in lots of different types of unit types available for each side, like tanks, glass cannons, glass daggers, healers, etc...

Which means you will be running into the limitations of Space Hulk's rule set. Limitations that were irrelevant to a fight between Terminators and Genestealers, will now start becoming more relevant.

Limitations such as:

- Low resolution for action points. (4 and 6 are not very large numbers)
- Low resolution for movement. (walking 10 feet is the same as turning 90 degrees?)
- Range is, with a couple of exceptions, infinite.
- Performance over range doesn't degrade.
- Ammo is, with a couple of exceptions, infinite.

To do justice to all the races and units of Warhammer 40k, you would be better off writing a new rule set that is more flexible.

Perhaps call it "Warhammer 40,000: Skirmish Rules" or something.

For inspiration, I suggest looking at video games like "X-Com" and "Silent Storm". Both are action point based and designed for two squads to go head-to-head against each other. Of course, both are more complex than a pen-and-paper game needs to be. Since they relied on the CPU to manage all the hard work. But they can still serve as inspirations.

They introduce things like:

- Combat stances effecting ranged combat success chances. (moving, standing, kneeling, prone)
- Weapon usage styles effecting ranged combat success chances and AP cost. (snap shot, normal shot, aimed shot, burst mode, full auto mode)
- Higher resolution action points which allow for a larger range of possible actions. For example, you could double the Terminator's APs to 8, but charge more for actions. Walking forward would cost 2. Walking diagonally would cost 3. Turning would cost 1. etc...

Anyway, I just thought I would throw some thoughts on the wall and see what sticks.

Znail
19-09-2009, 14:56
I am pretty much of the same oppinion as CRasterImage. I dont think the Space Hulk rules are realy suitable for opposing forces that shoot at eachother. It would most likely lead to standoffs where the first one to step forward will get shot by the opponent in his next turn. Both sides being melee capable isnt a problem thou as that is even in the game right now.

Its possible thou to bend things a little bit. Making Terminators Hard to Kill (Broodlord rule) would make it possible to toss in some shooty opponents as the Terminators would still be expected to mow them down most of the time. A small number of shooty guys added to the melee side would also work out so Hybrids with guns arent impossible. It would also work out to reverse the sides by making the 'terminator side' fast and melee oriented against blips of slow shooty enemies, like Harlequins vs Necrons.

So the thing that I dont think we should even try to do is to make Space Hulk a replacement for 40k as that isnt realy what the rules support. So no Space Marines in power armor vs Eldar guardians battles. If such battles is wanted then its probobly best to make a cross between 40k and SH, like use the SH rules for movement and when to shoot and the 40k rules for what happens to enemies shot.

There is still plenty of room for stuff that DO have a good chance of working out and be fun in SH. We already have suggested rules for:

Space Marines in power armor instead of the Terminators.
IG Veterans as the same.

Some tentative suggestions for:

Dreadnaughts.
Daemons.
Grey Knights.

Other things that are likely to work are:

Harlequins (or Banshees) vs Necron Warriors.
Hybrid additions to Genestealers.
Carnifiex and other Tyranid stuff.
Most shooty armies can be used as replacements for the Terminators.
And most melee ones could replace the Stealers.