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goroul
16-09-2009, 17:42
As I slowly dig out my old Aliens themed kill team from a variety of boxes I was begining to think how to represent them in Space Hulk, just against the stealers for some nice cinematic games, maybe make a scenario or two for them at some point.

Anyway, I came up with the rules attatched and was wondering what others thought? Has anyone else been playing with guard yet?

Goroul

EDIT- UPDATED REFERENCE SHEETS IN POSTS 22+23

SneakyChris
16-09-2009, 18:16
Owch, D6-3 in combat, harsh but fair. That drilled formations may be a bit too good. especial if both models are in over watch. Shotguns must be the only choice. Lasguns just wont cut it.

goroul
16-09-2009, 18:25
Perhaps Drilled Formations should only give the benefit to lasgun armed vets?

From what i can gather a shotgun isnt so much an aimed weapon, perhaps not the best thing to have being fired from behind you!

goroul

grissom2006
16-09-2009, 18:29
Got to agree with the Shotguns being a must the Heavy Stubber seems a little harsh maybe a 5+ Kill, maybe allow a loader to for a Heavy Flamer so if could reload? Or even swap the Heavy Stubber for a Heavy Bolter. Your going to have major problems against jammed doors as well due to lack of models being able to take them out.

Shotguns can be a extremely aimable weapon Goroul US Military has one that has a huge shooting capacity and fully aimable to a darn good distance and gets worse when it take a special grenade round. Try this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c

goroul
16-09-2009, 18:37
Heavy Stubber could be made 5+ kill but loose sustained fire, keeping both just turns it into an assault cannon.

I hadnt considered jammed doors, perhaps melta bombs, 2aps, auto destroys doors in close assault?

Like I say removing the drilled formation rule from shotgun weilders might encourage more lasguns, teams of two with shotgun in front, followed by a lasgunner seems right.

goroul

-edit, I shall have to take your word on modern shotguns, my "expertise" of weapons ends with stuff that was around 1600 years ago! Still am I correct in thinking the shotgun is a "room breaching weapon" as opposed to the one you follow up with?

StefDa
16-09-2009, 19:27
When people go about making their own good guys for Space Hulk, where do they usually write what equipment they have? Such as how many models does the good player use, may you choose freely between lasguns and shotguns, things like that.

Oh, and drilled formations should definately be lasguns only.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
16-09-2009, 19:29
Perhaps Drilled Formations should only give the benefit to lasgun armed vets?

Yes, I think this balances it out well.

As to doors, allowing one man per squad to use a plasma/meltagun could solve this...you would need rules for those weapons but it would probably be good to have rules for them anyway.

Was also thinking there should be a sergeant for each team and he should have options for close combat weapons combined with his pistol or even the ability to take plasma pistols.

How big will these squads be? I guess you'll have to write up separate scenarios for them.

grissom2006
16-09-2009, 19:33
1st Edition rules pretty much allocated points to unit cost when they added in new units to the game.

goroul
16-09-2009, 19:38
I must admit I'm not a huge fan of point type games, although I can see the advantage. I'd rather create a set of rules that specific scenarios can be generated from.

In regards to sgts I think they should be Veteran Sergeants and possibly take on individual characteristics- I'm thinking of building a Ripley like character who can go broodlord hunting with a plasma gun!

Other special weapons, melta guns+plasma guns are certainly an option too, like I say though my orriginal inspiration was the Aliens marines so the rules began as just a method of representing them.

Doghouse made some great plasma / melta rules for his power armoured marines somewhere, shall have a dig for them

Goroul

nedius
16-09-2009, 20:02
We playtested something very similar to these rules when we played the 1st ed IG rules.

We found that being able to shoot two guys at the same time in over watch proved very potent. 2D6, kills on 6, but can't jam. That was better than teminators!

Now, you do lose sustained fire, but can't jam - a big plus! Terminators are pretty likely to die in CC anyway, so -3 just pretty much ensures what you'd expect to happen to a guy in CC with a 'stealer. So two IG are probably better than a terminator - especially since the second guy will get two shots at the stealer after the first is killed, if it has the APs to attack the following guy.

This makes IG very had to balance. A nice change of pace, but 10 guard are likely to have an easier time than 5 terminators.

grissom2006
16-09-2009, 20:08
Isn't so much a Points System you bidded to play the game upto 40pts and units cost from as little as 5pts (in the case a standard marine squad) the lowest bidder got to be Guard, Chaos, Eldar and had to not exceed the pts of their bid.

A bid of 5 pts would of got a person 5 close assualt marines so the bidding process was more about saying i can do the mission with X number of men instead of your Y number of them.

StefDa
16-09-2009, 20:16
Why not just make a table over the contents of a strike team of the race one chooses? For example:

IG
10 Veterans with either a shotgun or a lasgun each
Two may have a stubber/flamer
One is a sarge with a plasma pistol and a close combat weapon of sorts

ELDAR
This and that ...

Wouldn't that be better? So you just select package solutions.

goroul
16-09-2009, 20:44
Isn't so much a Points System you bidded to play the game upto 40pts and units cost from as little as 5pts (in the case a standard marine squad) the lowest bidder got to be Guard, Chaos, Eldar and had to not exceed the pts of their bid.

A bid of 5 pts would of got a person 5 close assualt marines so the bidding process was more about saying i can do the mission with X number of men instead of your Y number of them.

Yeah, I think I understand how it worked- I was a little too young to be using the "more advanced" rules when I first played Space Hulk. I don't really have a problem with assigning such points systems to anything either I just don't think I'd use them much ;)


Why not just make a table over the contents of a strike team of the race one chooses?

More the kind of thing I'm leaning towards, but each to their own I suppose!

@nedius always great to hear how things have been playtested before, balancing the humble lasgun seems like it might be a bit of a pain! Im not sure if a jam/reload on the roll of a one would solve the problem, it may just make lasguns too poor (if thats possible...)

grissom2006
16-09-2009, 22:28
Yeah, I think I understand how it worked- I was a little too young to be using the "more advanced" rules when I first played Space Hulk. I don't really have a problem with assigning such points systems to anything either I just don't think I'd use them much ;)

Wasn't so much advance rules as they came out 6 months after the main release and fans of the game and cried out for new ways to play beyond a Terminator and a Genestealer was fun watching normal mairines get ripped to ribbons:p

Cpt. Drill
16-09-2009, 23:14
Hey gorul thanks for that document its very cool! We have been looking at the other races more recently to add some spice to our games and this is a great document.

One thing I might change is giving the gaurdsmen free 90 degree turns. Now please forgive me if that sounds like madness but it was either the rules used for humans in an old white dwarf or journal, or it was something that we made up. I just remember it working really well as it make them play very differently to terminators allowing them to be a bit more nimble than the sluggish behemoths. I think it will need playtesting as the mist of time or nostalgia of gaurdsmen fighting in the hulk are clouding my judgement.

Will be nice to see more work form the space hulk comminity availible online.

grissom2006
16-09-2009, 23:47
The Imperial Guard and Eldar lists we're published in the Journel.

FerociousBeast
17-09-2009, 14:02
I would revise the Imperial Guard list thus:

Lasgun -- Range=Unlimited; D6; Kill 6; Overwatch, Close Order Drill, Can't damage doors
Laspistol -- Range=12; D6; Kill 6; Can't damage doors
Shotgun -- Range=12; D6; Kill 5+; Can't damage doors
Heavy stubber -- Range=Unlimited; 3D6; Kill 6; Overwatch, Sustained fire, Jam (on triples)
Flamer -- Range=12; D6; Kill 4+; Area affect, persistent, 10 shots, Can't damage doors

Special Rules:
Drilled Formations -- as in reference sheet, plus the additional two formations:
-- Line Abreast -- Imperial Guardsmen can fit two models in each square if they are carrying the same weapon. When sharing a square, they must face the same direction, and they count as one model with two ranged weapons (thus 2D6 when shooting). In close combat, if a genestealer wins, both models are killed. If a model joins another model in Line Abreast formation, both models may make no further actions that turn, unless command points are used. The two models may leave Line Abreast formation only if they have performed no actions yet in that turn.
-- Close Order Drill -- Imperial Guard models in two adjacent squares (when combined with Line Abreast, up to four models total) wielding lasguns may combine their shooting in Overwatch when they enter into Close Order Drill and when the models in both squares can see the genestealer's move. 1 D6 is added for each model in Close Order Drill. Thus there is a maximum of 4D6 which can be fired by a formation in Close Order Drill at genestealers moving in line of sight.


Points costs:
4 Imperial Guardsmen with lasguns: 1 point
-- Heavy weapon (either flamer or heavy stubber) -- +1 point
-- Vox -- +1 point
4 Imperial Guardsmen with shotguns: 1 point
-- Heavy weapon (either flamer or heavy stubber) -- +1 point
-- Vox -- +1 point

grissom2006
17-09-2009, 20:51
Unlimited range not a good idea 10 shots on a flamer could be done but the old flames only got 6 and a free reload. Stubber jam on a triple nice, but still Guard are going to stuggle come missions with doors jammed in them. Take out the Stubbers on the force and mission over in some of the older missions and the current one.

goroul
17-09-2009, 22:11
For doors, as these are Veterans, I'm still liking the idea of equiping each model with melta bombs/cutting torches/over-ride kits to open locked/jammed doors. Essentially a close combat attack that auto destroys doors for 2 AP.

I like the othered drilled formation ideas, I think they suit the nature of regular guard squads/platoons, who are used to standing and firing in mass formations as opposed to rapid advance combat teams.

Not 100% convinced yet tho...;)

GrogsnotPowwabomba
18-09-2009, 00:05
Maybe sergeant could have a Power Sword?

How about a Meltagun/Plasmagun trooper in the squad?

StefDa
18-09-2009, 09:55
They should definately have something capable of taking the Broodlord out (the heavy stubber isn't exactly well suited for this).

goroul
18-09-2009, 12:25
Both Heavy Stubber and Shotgun are capable of killing the Broodlord- not easy, but then this shouldnt be an easy feat for a Guardsman anyway!

Other than that I've been working on some Vet Sgt characters who either have the ability to kill the broodlord or at least allow the squad to take different weapons that can. The first, Sgt. Weaver, is attatched bellow.

I shall try and get an updated Combat teams reference sheet sorted soon too.

Goroul

goroul
18-09-2009, 14:24
aaaand here we go, a quick Combat team sheet update.

Changes are..
Shotguns no longer benefit from the drilled formation rule, they have stayed as 2d6, 6+, overwatch but I shall try and have a playtest with the suggested 1d6 5+, overwatch idea.

Heavy Stubbers now only jam on a tripple and dont run out of ammo, but remain 3d6, 6+, overwatch, sustained fire

Melta bombs added in for all team members, a 2ap close assault attack that automatically destroys doors.

I'm still not sure on the other Drilled formation rules suggested by FerociousBeast, but will have a play test of them. What does everyone else think?

Goroul

Znail
18-09-2009, 14:55
I dont think they need any improvements, but looks fine now. Looks pretty comparable to the power armor marines rules in another thread. Basicly lose sustained fire but gain the drilled formation rule and the option for shotguns. So I think it will work out fine to substitute 5 Terminators for 10 Veterans in existing missions.

Broodlord is only present in a few of the included missions and the Librarian is also included there as a counter. I dont think there is any need for the Veterans to be able to take him out by themselves as a normal Terminator squad cant do it easily either and needs the Libarian or the Assault Cannon to do it.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
18-09-2009, 15:05
Good point on the Librarian countering the Broodlord (like queens in chess).

Perhaps just remove the Broodlord rules when using IG? Let's face it, even the most veteran soldier would get hosed by the thing...

goroul
18-09-2009, 16:29
The broodlord is a nice scenario specific addition- I'm looking at writing a Guard one where it needs to be hunted down- but the stealer side takes the hit of only using the one Genestealer blips, and a single three that represents the broodlord.

For average games however I agree the broodlord is going to be a bit much for the Guard to handle- and rightly so!

Weasel-Fierce
18-09-2009, 21:48
Looks really good. Loving the Sgt Weaver rules. I happen to have an Aliens squad made up including Ripley and Newt to use as a stand in for 'find the CAT' missions. Over on Boardgame Geek there are some people working on Sentry Gun rules, too - you should check them out if you want to further add to the Aliens feel.

http://boardgame.geekdo.com/thread/443849

StefDa
18-09-2009, 22:15
How many veterans do you use? I assume 10, since that would make sense (missions only allow for a maximum of 10 to be placed :P)

Znail
18-09-2009, 22:35
That isnt a problem, just extend the deployment zone by adding corridors at each deployment spot.

goroul
18-09-2009, 23:24
How many veterans do you use? I assume 10, since that would make sense (missions only allow for a maximum of 10 to be placed :P)


That isnt a problem, just extend the deployment zone by adding corridors at each deployment spot.

Indeed 10 Vets makes a good swap for 5 terminators- with a little fiddling here and there.

For deployment zones in the existing missions it has indeed been a case of either adding an extra length of corridor ,as Znail suggests, or starting models off-board in a similar manner to lurking genestealer blips.

Goroul

StefDa
18-09-2009, 23:27
That would be nice to have on those sheets, methinks. What about other races, will you be doing those? I would specifically like to see Chaos, preferrably power armour but also tactical dreadnought! I think you are very good at this. I don't trust myself with making stuff like that.

goroul
19-09-2009, 13:56
Thanks very much,

I'm not sure about other races yet, there has been some fantastic work on Orks, Tau and Power Armoured Marines I've seen so far.

Think I will try and get a short campaign for the guard finished, then I'm really leaning towards some Eldar/Necron scenarios! Shall wait and see what the community produces and probably tag along with something ;)

I did like the idea of chaos daemons / grey knights too...

Goroul

FerociousBeast
19-09-2009, 16:14
I'd say 4 guardsmen for each terminator.

If you include the rules about two guardsmen in each square, then in one square you'd have either one terminator who rolls 2D6 and kills on a 5 with sustained fire, or two guardsmen who roll 2D6 and kill on a 6 only. Two guardsmen couldn't hope to do what 1 terminator can do.

If you allow four guardsmen for each terminator, however, and include the rule about close order drill, then you'd have 4D6 killing on a 6 (51.78% chance), which would end up being slightly better than a 2D6 kill 6 then kill 5. But they'd get torn up in CC much easier, and could only claim overlapping fields of fire in one direction, since it would take two adjacent squares.

So I'd say 20 guardsmen for each 5 terminators would make about the right balance.

FerociousBeast
19-09-2009, 16:31
Re: the new reference sheet.

- Meltabombs for everyone is too much. I'd allow only one guardsmen per 5 to have them (maybe sergeant). That's like giving every terminator a chainfist.

- The heavy stubber feels fiddly to me. The limited movement rules and all. How about removing the movement limitation, saying it doesn't jam, but on triples it runs out of ammo? Then perhaps let the guardsman carry one reload or something.

- The vox movement limitation also is the kind of thing that's just going to be forgotten. I'd consider dropping it.

- Laspistol and shotgun range... I think it should be 12 for consistency sake, and also because it seems silly to have a flamer with a longer range than a pistol.

- Shotgun killiness... Shotguns can't go full-auto, so overwatch feels conceptually wrong for them (and for pistols too). Also, 2D6 seems to me to better represent a fast firing weapon, like a storm bolter, so I still advocate making the shotgun 1D6 Kill 5+. Another bonus to this is that guardsman squads equipped with a flamer and shotgun could fill a seek and destroy role while lasgun + stubber squads would fill a hold and contain role. Makes variety! Makes fun!


Re: Sergeant Weaver

I like her. Looks fun. I'd only suggest correcting where it says plasma pistol once in the ref sheet.

goroul
19-09-2009, 16:56
Ok,

Melta bombs, I think this works with everyone in the squad being equipped for the simple fact that only the heavy stubber has the ability to damage doors at all, and having to run up to open every door, with a potentially nasty blip lurking behind it, would probably see said melta bomber die quite quickly. It seems silly that a Guard team could lose because they become unable to open blocked doors. Perhaps if the AP cost was increased to 3 to show its not an easy task to set the melta's up correctly.

Stubber / vox movement, you are right that this can perhaps become a little fiddly. I had wanted to represent the difficulty for a human to carry such bulky equipment around in the confines of the hulk. I don't think the stubber movement is too bad, the vox one is much more likely to be forgotten though, perhaps it should be removed.

Stubber shooting, I want to playtest this some more, but you may well be right about it!

laspistol / shotgun range, I was thinking about bumping this up for consistency's sake, but I'm not sure, 12 is only the base range due to comparison with the storm bolter/heavy flamer/ assault cannon. Perhaps the flamer's range should be toned down as opposed to these up...

shotgun killiness, the 2d6 was kept simply to make the shotgun a much more deadly close range weapon. It may not be a fast firing weapon, but does fire a blast of shot giving the user more chance to hit- if not kill the opponent. Similarly I dont see overwatch as being a full auto thing- that is surely more sustained fire- but rather being prepared to react with an easy to use (simple point and click interface ;)) gun.

Sgt. Weaver- DOH I missed that plasma pistol reference

Any other thoughts out there?

Goroul

Znail
19-09-2009, 17:21
I'd say 4 guardsmen for each terminator.

If you include the rules about two guardsmen in each square, then in one square you'd have either one terminator who rolls 2D6 and kills on a 5 with sustained fire, or two guardsmen who roll 2D6 and kill on a 6 only. Two guardsmen couldn't hope to do what 1 terminator can do.

If you allow four guardsmen for each terminator, however, and include the rule about close order drill, then you'd have 4D6 killing on a 6 (51.78% chance), which would end up being slightly better than a 2D6 kill 6 then kill 5. But they'd get torn up in CC much easier, and could only claim overlapping fields of fire in one direction, since it would take two adjacent squares.

So I'd say 20 guardsmen for each 5 terminators would make about the right balance.

I strongly dissagree! Terminators only kills on 5's with sustained fire, so dont get that all the time and Terminators on overwatch can also jam wich the Lasguns cant do. 2D6 killing on 6s and no jam is quite reliable at keeping a corridor clear. You can also get 3D6 by using a Shotgun(*) as the front man.

Terminators lose badly in close assault against Stealers, so its not realy that much of a downside to lose even more badly for the IG. It also takes more AP for the Stealers as theire is more of the IG to kill and the IG towards the rear can keep shooting for each AP spent on eating another IG as well.

I would gladly accept the challange of using 2 IG veterans using the pdf sheet and consider it a fair trade for 1 Terminator. You also get 2 times the special weapons and I think 2 Flamers for each 1 Heavy Flamer looks pretty fair while getting 4 Flamers would make it real easy by comparison.

(*)sidenote: Shouldnt Shotguns jam on doubles on overwatch? Would kind of make sense fluffwise as you may need to reload sometimes and it would make the internal balance a bit better I think.

[edit] I think a less fiddly special movement rule for the Heavy Stubber is simply to not alow it to get the free shot while moving other weapons do. I think that is enuff to make it less mobile as you will need to stand still to fire then. It already works like that in the pdf and I think that is enuff complexity. Its possible that it would also be easier to just give the Vox guy only a pistol instead of the movement limit.

[edit2] Did some math for probability and two Lasguns are better on overwatch then a Stormbolter IF you dont have CP's to clear jams. If you do have sufficient CP's to clear Jams then the a Shotgun plus Lasgun was very equal (asuming that the Shotgun is changed so that it can also jam) to a Stormbolter. The diffrence was 0.7% higher chance that a Stealer made it 5 overwatched squares, so pretty equal. Heavy Stubber plus Lasgun makes for a super Stormbolter basicly for overwatch without the ammo limit of an Assault Cannon.

Next up is a practical test I guess. I think I will try out mission 1 with Veterans! I guess I will try the rules from another thread for power armor Space Marines too later. I think mission 1 is a good testing ground as its tight quarters wich makes it difficult to use the numbers of the IG or SM well and the mission is also classified as difficult by many. So if they can manage that mission then they arent underpowered at the very least.

FerociousBeast
19-09-2009, 18:36
First, my comments on 4 guardsmen for 1 terminator should be read in light of my previous post on the matter. In that post, a genestealer kills both guardsmen standing together in a square if it wins a combat, and having two guardsmen in the square offers no bonus in combat at all. So the stealer doesn't have to do more work to kill the guardsmen... in fact it has to do less (once it actually gets to them).

Second, I don't think shotguns should have overwatch at all. I think they should be IG-turn only. Also, a shotgun shouldn't be combined with a lasgun in a square, and they roll only 1 D6 in my preference.

Znail
19-09-2009, 23:39
First, my comments on 4 guardsmen for 1 terminator should be read in light of my previous post on the matter. In that post, a genestealer kills both guardsmen standing together in a square if it wins a combat, and having two guardsmen in the square offers no bonus in combat at all. So the stealer doesn't have to do more work to kill the guardsmen... in fact it has to do less (once it actually gets to them).

Second, I don't think shotguns should have overwatch at all. I think they should be IG-turn only. Also, a shotgun shouldn't be combined with a lasgun in a square, and they roll only 1 D6 in my preference.
Killing 4 guardsmen would still take more effort then 1 Terminator as it would need to kill 2 'squares' instead of 1. But the main problem is that with your suggestion so would the IG have MUCH stronger overwatch then Terminators have and Terminators arent exactly bad in 3rd edition at that. Even as is in the pdf so are the IG somewhat better at overwatch then the Terminators, so no need to double that quality up to the extreme.

You suggested change to Shotgun only makes it an inferior choise to the Lasgun, but that doesnt balance out giving more then 2 Lasguns for every Terminator. Even using the pdf rules without jam so are the Lasgun the main weapon and Shotguns are best used in smaller numbers as you always want atleast one Lasgun behind every other guy.

FerociousBeast
20-09-2009, 00:52
I've run the numbers. IG overwatch would not be "MUCH stronger" than Terminator overwatch, even when 4 IG are combining fire. 51% chance to kill a genestealer with 4D6 kill 6 (4 guardsmen). 56% chance to kill a genestealer with 2D6 kill 5+ (1 terminator). But of course, sustained fire bonus required for the 5+ and jam possibility. So overall I'd say IG have a slight advantage in overwatch due to not having to worry about jamming. But they get mowed down much easier in combat, and actually getting that 4D6 will often be more difficult than it sounds. Remember it also means putting two of the guardsmen one square further down the corridor than a terminator would need to be.

Shotgun would be inferior to the lasgun when trying to hold a corridor, but when a squad needed to move, the shotgun would be superior. Space Hulk is mostly about holding corridors, so the lasgun will be the preferred weapon for most squads, but the shotgun will be useful on the minority of squads who need to seek and destroy in order to complete their missions.

Znail
20-09-2009, 04:57
I've run the numbers. IG overwatch would not be "MUCH stronger" than Terminator overwatch, even when 4 IG are combining fire. 51% chance to kill a genestealer with 4D6 kill 6 (4 guardsmen). 56% chance to kill a genestealer with 2D6 kill 5+ (1 terminator). But of course, sustained fire bonus required for the 5+ and jam possibility. So overall I'd say IG have a slight advantage in overwatch due to not having to worry about jamming. But they get mowed down much easier in combat, and actually getting that 4D6 will often be more difficult than it sounds. Remember it also means putting two of the guardsmen one square further down the corridor than a terminator would need to be.

Yes it would be. You are ignoring both jam and that it requires a previous overwatch shot to get the sustained fire bonus. Here are the probabilities for a Stealer to survive overwatch from a Stormbolter with diffrent saved CP's to clear jams (stolen from BGG (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/443752)):



| 0 CP | 1 CP | 2 CP
**********|******|******|******
1 Square | 0.695| 0.695| 0.695
2 Squares | 0.386| 0.386| 0.386
3 Squares | 0.283| 0.241| 0.241
4 Squares | 0.249| 0.144| 0.144
5 Squares | 0.238| 0.093| 0.087


Here are the same for 4 Lasguns:


| 0 CP |
**********|******|
1 Square | 0.482|
2 Squares | 0.233|
3 Squares | 0.112|
4 Squares | 0.054|
5 Squares | 0.026|

I wouldnt want to play with or against IG using these rules as it would either be easy mode or hopeless, depending on side. Note that even if we asume the IG needs to stand closer so are they notable better. But this is a bit unfair as while the first IG is reach 1 AP earlier so are the second one 1 AP further away then a Terminator would be and the second line (and potentialy IG behind them) can fire both during the killing attack and the next step. A conga line of IG are realy strong due to this fact and this is true for either ruleset and a major advantage with playing them.

Here are the stats for 2 Lasguns wich I consider more balanced:


| 0 CP |
**********|******|
1 Square | 0.694|
2 Squares | 0.482|
3 Squares | 0.335|
4 Squares | 0.233|
5 Squares | 0.162|

Remember that its a pretty good advantage to have reliable overwatch without any need to save CP's to clear Jams.

And the bonus table for Shotgun(with Jams)+Lasgun, althou I only calculated for ample CP's as that was what I was most curious about how it compared with Stormbolter.



| 0 CP | 1 CP | 2 CP
**********|******|******|******
1 Square | *****|******| 0.579
2 Squares | *****|******| 0.406
3 Squares | *****|******| 0.249
4 Squares | *****|******| 0.153
5 Squares | *****|******| 0.094

For the curious, the reason that the numbers works out so similar to the Stormbolter, despite seemingly having less chance to hit, is because the Lasgun wont ever Jam and the Shotgun fires for full effect directly first square and also after cleared Jams. Just for the record so would the numbers most likely be somewhat better then Stormbolter for the fewer CP cases because Lasgun wont Jam.

goroul
20-09-2009, 14:15
I'm afraid I have to agree, statistics and probablilty were never my strongpoint, but a couple of playtests showed four lasgun groups to be too much for the stealers. Two still worked nicely though.

I certainly like the shotgun jam idea however! Something else to try out...


edit- Attatched the corrected Vet Sgt Weaver along with her colleagues, Sgt Dillon and Sgt Lanceson.

FerociousBeast
20-09-2009, 16:04
Yes it would be. You are ignoring both jam and that it requires a previous overwatch shot to get the sustained fire bonus. Here are the probabilities for a Stealer to survive overwatch from a Stormbolter with diffrent saved CP's to clear jams (stolen from BGG):
Your numbers for the stormbolter are inaccurate. The lasgun numbers are correct, however.

Here is the real comparison (not counting jams at this point):
__________________v. Terminator___v. 4 Guardsmen___v. 2 Guardsmen
Survive 1 Square ---- 69.44% --------- 48.22% -------- 69.44%
Survive 2 Squares --- 30.86% --------- 23.26% -------- 48.23%
Survive 3 Squares --- 13.71% --------- 11.21% -------- 33.48%
Survive 4 Squares --- 06.04% --------- 05.40% -------- 23.25%

I really do think you need to pay close attention to that 2 Guardsmen column. This game is balanced around 1 terminator holding a corridor. And we all know how difficult that can be. Well, the numbers for 2 guardsmen make it even more difficult. So the best is 4 guardsmen, and the worst is clearly 2 guardsmen. Sure, given a long enough corridor, say 12 squares, the 2 guardsmen could probably hold it, but any of the other two possibilities could hold it better. If we're in a typical hulk mission with winding passages, races to the corner, I just don't see how only 2 guardsmen per terminator could hope to win. Well, unless they're all using the shotgun rules in the reference sheet right now (which as you know I don't agree with). But lasguns certainly couldn't pull it off.

I have always granted that 4 lasguns have a better chance versus 1 storm bolter, but I've also always contended that the other limitations would somewhat offset this. Not to mention the fact that the IG player would have to find some way to cram his army into twice the number of squares that a terminator player would. 20 guardsmen in a mission designed for 5 terminators would mean at best taking up twice the space. That equals a target rich environment for the genestealers.

I really can't see how 10 guardsmen wouldn't just get eaten up. It would be interesting to playtest a full mission to see. (Without the special characters, of course. They would muddy the waters too much.)

Ideally, the balance in my mind would be 5 terminators = 10 space marines = 20 Imperial Guardsmen. If the 4 guardsmen formation I've written up would be too much, and perhaps it would, I think the guardsmen should be rebalanced to make the 5/10/20 ratio work. This might mean something drastic like removing command points from guardsmen (which honestly would make fluff sense).

IncrediSteve
20-09-2009, 17:59
... Shotguns can't go full-auto

Modern Combat Shotguns most certainly can! And that's what IG vets are going to have, not a double barreled or a pump or something fiddly like that. I'll throw in a chip for the shotguns being okay as is.


One thing I feel is missing right off the bat is an ability to run! Terminators can't do this of course, but there are plenty of situations where IG can and should.

Here's how I think running should be represented in the actions table:



Action AP
Move Forwards 1 Square 1*
Move Forwards 2 Squares 1


I think a good trade for running is to be able to move [only] forward 2 squares for 1ap, and obviously not be able to shoot as part of the same action. This would give the IG a bit of a boost when they need to get somewhere for an objective, but I feel this is how they should play. More maneuverable and able to get something done, but oh so much more fragile and super easy to shred.

As for the guard entering in missions, I think you should simply have Guardsman Entry Points! Where regular space hulk missions have the caution striped end caps, you could just leave them off and use them as entry points, easily marked with the game's already provided arrow-like Aquila tokens. For each mission I think you should start with a certain amount, and then be able to expend Command Points to call in reinforcements. Or perhaps roll for reserves each turn? Either way, this would be a good part for the Vox to interact with.

Znail
20-09-2009, 18:12
Your numbers for the stormbolter are inaccurate. The lasgun numbers are correct, however.

Here is the real comparison (not counting jams at this point):
__________________v. Terminator___v. 4 Guardsmen___v. 2 Guardsmen
Survive 1 Square ---- 69.44% --------- 48.22% -------- 69.44%
Survive 2 Squares --- 30.86% --------- 23.26% -------- 48.23%
Survive 3 Squares --- 13.71% --------- 11.21% -------- 33.48%
Survive 4 Squares --- 06.04% --------- 05.40% -------- 23.25%

You are actualy correct in that they were wrong as I now double checked the numbers I used from the BGG source and they were incorrect. But you cant just ignore Jams as they have a rather large effect on the game. The first one asumes enuff CP's to clear all Jams:

__________________v. Terminator____v. T no CP___v. 4 Guardsmen___v. 2 Guardsmen___Shotgun+Lasgun no Jams
Survive 1 Square ---- 69.44% --------- 69.44% --------- 48.22% -------- 69.44% --------- 57.87%
Survive 2 Squares --- 37.29% --------- 37.29% --------- 23.26% -------- 48.23% --------- 33.49%
Survive 3 Squares --- 21.01% --------- 22.91% --------- 11.21% -------- 33.48% --------- 19.38%
Survive 4 Squares --- 11.74% --------- 15.54% --------- 05.40% -------- 23.25% --------- 11.22%
Survive 5 Squares --- 06.57% --------- 11.38% --------- 02.61% -------- 16.15% --------- 06.49%

With the recalculated odds so may it be better to leave the Shotgun without Jams. But there are on the other hand lots of other things that can be added for fun to balance out the shotgun jams, as I kind of like them, like a Sergeant with some nice weapon options. The above suggested run option could also be considered. I would think that neither special nor vox can run thou.


Ideally, the balance in my mind would be 5 terminators = 10 space marines = 20 Imperial Guardsmen. If the 4 guardsmen formation I've written up would be too much, and perhaps it would, I think the guardsmen should be rebalanced to make the 5/10/20 ratio work. This might mean something drastic like removing command points from guardsmen (which honestly would make fluff sense).
I can understand that idea, but this is Veteran IG, so that may be more suited for normal IG. There is also a rather big problem with your idea!

The problem is that the extra formation rules actualy improves the IG rather then the other way around, so if you want them to be worse and only worth 1/4th of a Terminator then I think those rules have to go totaly. Thus you get 4 IG, but only 1D6 and kill on 6 and no rule for shooting past or standing in the same square. It would make the game rather diffrent as you would basicly swarm ahead and take horrible losses as your overwatch outside of rooms would be abyssmal. I think you will have to only use 1 special for each 10 men too as 4 specials for each Terminator squad would still be far too good.

Removing CP's totaly or disalowing the free shot when moving are other options to limit the IG, but I dont think those are enuff to get you all the perks suggested and still get the 4 IG, possibly get the shoot past rule.

goroul
20-09-2009, 18:16
Running, hmm, nice idea. The only problem with being able to move 2 for 1AP is that the Guard would be faster than stealers!

Also I think we are beginning to develop two sets of ideas for how the Guard should work. I admit I first started playing around with the idea of keeping the small team nature of the game to represnt Veteran (even storm trooper) kill teams/ combat squads.

However some really excellent ideas- like having two guard to a space, and this notion of having guard "spawn points" to call in reinforcements have emerged which, at least to my mind, fit less with this elite special forces team and more with regular Guard platoons. As such might we use both themes and create a different set of Guard rules to represent those who might be less well equipped/trained but have far greater numbers to throw away and put into more complex formations?

goroul

Znail
20-09-2009, 18:39
The problem is that the complex formations help them and thus makes them too strong to be alowed in large numbers. The current pdf is pretty well balanced. Thus if you want larger numbers so would you have to take away something to balance things and that makes it hard to add in another advantageous formation rule as well as then even more downsides needs to be added.

Then there is the problem of actualy playing with these rules as it would be rather messy trying to fit normal 40k bases two on each square. Would work fine perhaps with custom models with 2 on each base and make the rules treat them as a single model basicly.

I think its worth testing if its possible to play with lots (4 for each Terminator) of basic IG that has no formation rules. It would obviously be messy and alot of them will die, but there will be quite alot of them. The Run rule might be a good idea as it helps the horde spread out faster. My only problem with the running is the possible combination with CP's as that could be one fast IG! On the other hand, those hyper active IG only have flashlights to defend themselves so its not such a big deal :evilgrin:

goroul
20-09-2009, 18:47
My only problem with the running is the possible combination with CP's as that could be one fast IG! On the other hand, those hyper active IG only have flashlights to defend themselves so its not such a big deal :evilgrin:

*Goes looking for Benny Hill theme*...

Nkari
21-09-2009, 17:08
I have allways used IG with ranked fire, 5 AP, lasgun 6+ on 1 dice, caps out at 5+ instead of 4+ as with stormbolters.. Flamers with 6 in ammo, same kill chance as normal flamers, 1 reload, heavy bolter/heavy stubber as 6+ on 2 dice, caps out sustained at 3+ jams on dubble 1-2 ammo 10.. Sarge can choose to be armed with melta gun or plasma pistol instead of a lasgun. (Both melta and pistol destroy bulkheads/doors on 4+, range 8)

Vox caster gives more time and being able to call in a remnant squad of 5 IG to reinforce after atleast half the original IG squad are dead (reinforcements move in from normal marine deployment) 1 special weapon instead of 2 as in the normal squad, no vox, no sarge..

Everyone has crack grenades, kills doors/bulkheads on 5+ for 2ap at range, auto for 3ap in btb.

So your looking at about 3 IG per Terminator, but they are not all on the board from the start.

Weasel-Fierce
27-09-2009, 08:39
So, has anyone tried to combine these rules with some Aliens themed missions yet? I've just finished painting up my USCM squad and am keen to try them out on some different kinds of missions.