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TheSil
20-09-2009, 17:46
I played mission 8 twice so far and I really have to say I have no clue how this mission should be fair...

Is it really true that this damn Scriptor can carry the artifact? Because in both games it was almost impossible stopping him from reaching the room. After he ran right through in the first game, the Tyrannids imho played extremely well in the second one AND were lucky. They still could not stop him.

If he uses the command points to run forward he should easily reach the section with the last blocked door in turn 3. He can easily shoot all blocked doors on the run and should even be able to go on overwatch after that.
Even if the Tyrannids manage to close in on him, threaten him from the side or manage to move a few Stealers into the target room, there is not enough time left to stop him from spamming Psi-barriers blocking the stealers behind him from catching up while he shoots the ones in front. With so few blips as reinforcements in the first 6 turns there is simply not enough manpower left to stop him from marching to the room and spawning barriers behind him so that no Stealer can catch up...

I really tried everything to prevent that. I managed to stall him in turns 3-5 at the crossroads-tile with the blocked doors by moving single stealers from the sideway tunnels right in front of his nose.
This way I managed to sneak a few stealers from the long corridor into the target rooms, block his advance and catch up with reinforcements.
But even after recieving suspiciously low command points he managed to press forward and pass the crossroads soon enough. After that it was only a matter of shooting everything in front and Psi-blocking everything in the back. After drawing a 6 for command points (which he didn't even need) he was already in the target room, his psi-barrier right behind him. Game over, sadly the two stealers in the room could not delay him for the 5 turns until his barrier finally runs out.


I can't see anything that could be done differently, there are too few troops for any other options, you really need to take the sideway corridors first and then move troops through the long corridor hoping for the best, but everything is too little too late.
He simply gets so close to the objective in so little time that there are not enough troops in position to stop him. He will never use up all his 20 psi points before he covers the last few squares and you can effectively only attack him from the front, his team members will manage to cover some of the back anyway, if not the psi points make up for it.
The marine player instantly wins if he brings this one single Super-Marine through and no other mission seems that unfair to me...

The only thing a can imagine that would make this mission more playable is if the Scriptor could not carry the artifact and has to piggyback another Marine through.

Is it possible that I missed that the Scriptor can't be the carrier? The mission description says "one of these Marines carries the artifact", but on second glance it could be that one of the Marines with Stormbolter and Powerfist has to carry it, which would make the mission at least slightly better.
Although not really, he could always drop it and let the Scriptor pick it up right on turn one, I am out of options :(

I feel like doing something horribly wrong :(

Dangersaurus
21-09-2009, 01:54
We played it last week, with pretty much the same results. Taking out the center-most map pieces might help, or maybe making the blocked doors immune to sustained hits. Hmm, what if the blocked doors could only be destroyed by the lightning claws for this mission? That would make it a bit more tense...

Commiesalami
21-09-2009, 04:21
Remember that the Librarian cannot use Psi-points if attacked from the side or the back (Loses his +1 bonus as well). Leaving him the same strength as a storm bolter marine.
In fact all marines are left with nothing but an unmodified D6 and no parry or block ability if attacked from the side. (Apologies if you already know this, this was almost universal rules mistake with local players)

First Turn I had one Blip move to his spawning area and the other camp the center. This slowed down his advance + forces a Marine to stay behind. (1 Genestealer Lurking tying up a marine is a great deal.)

From there on store a blip or two in the room ACROSS the ending room, who will pop out at close range attacking the front marine if the marine player tries to rush to the room too fast.

The center is a good death trap, a few genestealers can out-manuver and get valuable back/side attacks. Mixed up hall ways like that are the places where genestealers shine.

TheSil
21-09-2009, 07:34
Ah, I forgot that he can only use Psi points when attacked from the front, that makes him at least a bit more balanced. Still it wouldn't have changed this mission since the Scriptor waited on the square of the crossroads where he could only be attacked from the front. The back entrances were covered by other Marines.

I had 2 Stealers in the room across the entrence area as you said. I also thought this would be a great idea, but it only worked in theory. The scriptor simply ran a few fields forward in the next turn, blocked the crossroads with a PSI barrier, went on overwatch. Now every assault or reinforcement from the long corridor was pretty useless. On the next turn he was already close enough to move directly into the room with the entrance area and blocked everyone else behind with his barrier. After that the game is finished.
Even though I managed to stall him two full turns at the crossroads with the few troops I had, I do not see how I could have won this. As soon as he draws a high number of command points there is not much you can do.


The fact that he can do this so early in the game makes it extremely annoying and I felt like sacrificing blips to distract one of the sidekick-Marines was even worse because there are even less troops left stop the running barrier-man from reaching his goal.
By the time the first blips reach the Marine deployment zone the Scriptor is already approaching the crossroads and from that moment on the Marine player should easily be able to ignore one of his more passive team members.


We played it last week, with pretty much the same results. Taking out the center-most map pieces might help, or maybe making the blocked doors immune to sustained hits. Hmm, what if the blocked doors could only be destroyed by the lightning claws for this mission? That would make it a bit more tense...

hmm, yes changing the map or rules might work. However I think this is always a drastic step.
I wonder what the designers thought when designing it this way - surely they must have tested it thoroughly?

I don't say it is completely impossible to win with the Stealers and admit that we are certainly not the best players around, but we fail to see how this one should be fair and balanced.

Mondobot
21-09-2009, 12:52
Why do people keep going on about unfairness and re-hashing missions. Its not 40k, its not balanced, kill everytjing and have fun!!

GrogsnotPowwabomba
21-09-2009, 14:32
Why do people keep going on about unfairness and re-hashing missions. Its not 40k, its not balanced, kill everytjing and have fun!!

Because the missions should still have some semblance of balance, or its a worthless game to play. Perfect balance is not necessary, but cakewalks (especially for the Marines) are the most anti-climactic thing possible.

I'm all for missions that are imbalanced in favor of the Genestealers, but imbalance in the favor of the Marines is just lame and boring...

BTW, what are these "Tyranids" everyone keeps mentioning? They are GENESTEALERS people! This game is older than all that Tyranid silliness... :p

Dangersaurus
21-09-2009, 16:06
Why do people keep going on about unfairness and re-hashing missions. Its not 40k, its not balanced, kill everytjing and have fun!!

"This is the Space Hulk forum, stop talking about Space Hulk!"

:wtf:

We're talking about a game. Don't take it personally. I doubt I would play any of the missions against the same person twice without altering the rules, regardless of their initial balance.

wilsongrahams
23-09-2009, 15:31
The trick is to wait at a corner and make the librarian come to you. He can only place one barrier per turn and every turn he is not moving due to using a barrier becasue he doesn't trust one overwatch shot before combat, is a turn you get more forces on the board. Slow him down and he will run out of psi points. If you can engage him in combat, that will use even more psi points. It is easier for the marines but not impossible. Whilst there is still the jammed doors blocking the main central corridor, you need to fill the top of the board up before he can shoot at them, THEN use the middle entry areas. Plan ahead and don't try to stop him by attacking from the closest entry point first as you need to deploy ahead before he had cleared the corridor. He will barely have got to the middle junctions then anyway, and with forces ahead, he will have to move slowly to be careful not to be attacked from behind. Any marine's hanging backl to cover his rear will be best taken out by a few lone stealers brought on from the rear.

wilsongrahams
23-09-2009, 15:34
Once I've won every misison as the marines, I find it more fun to have the challenge of winning as the stealers and then tend to play them almost all the time. This has allowed me to perfect how to play as stealers in the hard missions - you need to do one or two things or face certain failure, and always need some luck on your side. It's never fun having a sb and pf marine kill your broodlord in combat afterall...

ecurtz
15-10-2009, 00:12
++[Hi everyone - I just joined up for the Space Hulk discussions since it dragged me back into buying GW stuff after about 15 years.]++

I posted a couple solo runs of this mission over on Board Game Geek, using some minor rules changes which I think are enough to make it a lot more balanced.

1) Use the original bulkhead rules instead of the lame, new "jammed doors". Bulkheads can only be destroyed by close assault, a marine with chain fist using 2 AP, or assault cannon fire.

2) Charge the Librarian AP equal to the psi points for using his psychic powers.

These two small changes went a long way toward fixing this mission, and they'll definitely be used in my house rules.

Patriarch
15-10-2009, 16:44
1) Use the original bulkhead rules instead of the lame, new "jammed doors". Bulkheads can only be destroyed by close assault, a marine with chain fist using 2 AP, or assault cannon fire.
2) Charge the Librarian AP equal to the psi points for using his psychic powers.

That's an interesting take on it. If the Librarian has to spend APs, does that mean he can use multiple powers per turn, or use them in the genestealer turn with CPs?

I'd make the chainfist work with 1AP (otherwise it's only slightly better than a powerfist at its main job); since the AC is essentially a souped up stormbolter I'd make bulkheads immune to all shooting - it's CC/chainfist or nothing!

ecurtz
15-10-2009, 18:01
That's an interesting take on it. If the Librarian has to spend APs, does that mean he can use multiple powers per turn, or use them in the genestealer turn with CPs?
Hmmm, I hadn't considered that. I'd certainly stay with one power per turn, but I don't see why he couldn't use it during the genestealer turn with CP. Although it does make him a bit more flexible, and I was trying to power him down.


I'd make the chainfist work with 1AP (otherwise it's only slightly better than a powerfist at its main job); since the AC is essentially a souped up stormbolter I'd make bulkheads immune to all shooting - it's CC/chainfist or nothing!
I was going back to the original 1st edition rules for bulkheads. Note that the chainfist is paying 2 AP to automatically destroy the bulkhead without the roll.


BULKHEADS
Bulkheads are similar to closed doors, except they cannot be opened. They are fixed in place and must be broken through. A Marine armed with a chain fist can break through a bulkhead by paying 2 APs. Other Marines must make close combat assault attacks against them, succeeding if they roll a 6 or higher. Any CAB a Marine is entitled to applies, as do any psi points a Librarian spends. Genestealers also need to roll a 6 to break a bulkhead. A bulkhead can only be shot open by an assault cannon firing a burst at it (full auto fire has no effect - it's not focused enough). Roll three dice for the assault cannon as normal. The bulkhead is destroyed if any of the dice come up with a 6. A bulkhead can be destroyed by a self-destructing flamer, a thunder hammer, or a malfunctioning assault cannon. In any of these cases, the bulkhead is destroyed on a roll or 5 or better. Bulkheads are not affected by grenades or flamer fire.

grg3d
15-10-2009, 18:11
Add hybrids with ranged weapons....its the only way to be sure.

The only dumbing down that I see from first to third is...

Clear jam for free at the start of the turn
double dipping for command points
sustain fire in overwatch

Change those 3 things back to first and see what happens :D
of course sustain fire bonus should also be changed back to first edition, then you would be playing 1st instead of 3rd