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View Full Version : Black Dragon is built, here's what I have for support.



willowdark
21-09-2009, 16:15
My Carnosaur/Black Dragon conversion is done. Since I have him I'm going to use him, but I'm trying to find a nice balanced way to field his army.

I've imposed a few restrictions on myself to keep the powerlevel down. Please try to keep this in mind as you critique the list. I'm not going to take a Hydra. 1 fast, hugely destructive, nearly invincible Terror causer is enough for 2250. I also generally avoid ASF Black Guard. Not for any real tangible reason, I'm just really not inspired by them the way other people seem to be.

So here it is.


Lord of the Black Wyrm. (2250)


Dreadlord;
Armour of Darkness, Pendant, Crimson Death.
Black Dragon. (545)

Death Hag;
Battle Standard, Standard of Hag Graef.
Cauldron of Blood. (260)

Sorceress;
2 Dispel Scrolls. (150)


Core:

2 x 10 RxBs. (100 ea.)
2 x 5 Dark Riders w/ musicians. (92 ea.) Fixed ;)
20 Warriors w/ shields, full command and the Warbanner. (180)

Special:

14 Executioners. (168)
6 Cold One Knights w/ full command, Standard of Slaughter and the Ring of Hotek. (262.)

Rare:

RBT. (100)
RBT. (100)
RBT. (100)

Infantry and RxBs hold back defensively or advance conservatively while RBTs deal out long range damage, most likely on the refused flank. Dragon and CoKs advance aggressively on a weighted flank opposite the RBT base. Executioners provide a Stubborn anchor against anything that can get through my shooting, and will protect my flank after the RBTs have been dealt with.

I generally avoided the choices I did because I wanted to ensure there was some element of tactical challenge in the list. So again, no Hydra and ASF BG. I'm also feeling generous with the infantry and CoB BSB, since both represent good targets for the enemy to score heaps of VPs, since the Dragon can be such a huge Points Denial.

BUT, I don't consider this list soft in any way. If all the elements work this list should really devastate. I play in a very competitive environment so I'm not eager to give points away. I actually think these units will be something of a red herring, and if I play distances well and can ensure the charge, everything in the list will be effective offensively when needed to.

I think this is really a list about providing a lot of threats, with juicy but very inaccessible targets.

What do you think?

Draconian77
21-09-2009, 17:43
Mate, there isn't a single concession in that list...I mean, I admire the fact that you are trying to take the power level down, but it's like a 9.75/10 instead of a 10/10 in terms of points efficiency.

Your biggest concession, not taking a Hydra, is sort of blown out the window because of the third Bolt Thrower. (The Dragon+lots of Bolt Thrower list is considered beardy for High Elves so it's going to be considered the same or even worse with the Dark Elves.)

Now, if you want to try something different and if you don't mind playing by RAW, try the Armour of Living Death on the Dreadlord. It makes the Dragon T7 and W7 aswell...I know that sounds beardy, but the Armour of Living Death is useless otherwise so it's actually quite fair...(ish)

Ok, on the assumption that you won't do that:

The Dark Riders are either 92pts each or you forgot to type "Repeater Crossbows". ;)

The Rxbmen could do with Shields. (If the Executioners do manage to hold things down, being able to flank with the 4+ save could be handy.)

The Executioners could use a Champion. When fighting something like a fighty Lord, Dragon Rider, Bloodthirster or Treeman Ancient it's much better to lose the champion than the models as you're Stubborn anyway and it could buy you another turn.

You could even split the Executioners into two units and give each a Champion. (Better against some armies, worse against others, entirely optional, but considering that you could move them together it's almost always better as your opponent ends up wasting kills. Also, a single failed Stubborn check doesn't break through your flank as he just hits the other Executioner unit which was 1" behind the original one.)

That's about it really, you know yourself that it's a competitive list.

It is odd to see an army with so much shooting forgo Shades though.

If you need points, you could turn the Cold One Knights into 2 Chariots. (I prefer the Chariots) and give the Ring to the Caddy. Saves you 62pts.

willowdark
21-09-2009, 18:05
Your absolutely right. keeping the powerlevel down was not really my intention. I guess I didn't go about it the right way, I was just guarding against the inevitable comments like, "you need a Hydra, they're awesome," or "don't take Execs, they suck. Take ASF BG instead."

The point really is that the alternatives I've chosen require more tactical foresight and can be vulnerable to smart players, unlike the obvious choices which tend to just automatically be good.

I am concerned about being viewed as a gun line, but the absence of Shades seemed like an obvious concession in itself. My usual All-comers list would have 2 RBTs and 9 Shades. I think no Shades and the 3rd Bolt Thrower is a fair trade. Shooting generally yields to probabilities, so ebbs and flows more naturally than a Hydra or Black Guard. I tend to shrug off gun line accusations, especially since the list doesn't include Shades, Harpies or RxBs on my DRs.

And yes, 117 pts is a typo. They're 92 pts in the list, I just went on auto pilot when I was writing it. ;)

I like the idea of a Chariot in the list, and that would probably be my trade for the 3rd RBT if complaints grew too severe. I also like the idea about taking 2 units of Execs instead of 1. That's some nice 4 dimensional thinking there Drac. I don't think I can make room for the Champ though. Maybe 2 units of 6 with champs, or drop the one unit to 12 and a Champ. Either way, you've given me something to think about. Thanks.

Anything else?

willowdark
21-09-2009, 18:27
Just to say, I'm not married to this powerlevel. I'd be willing to consider any nerf that doesn't make me obviously vulnerable or unbalanced. it's going the other way that I'd object to.

Draconian77
21-09-2009, 20:07
Anything else? Nope, just the Executioner change, after that it looks solid as a brick. :)

To be honest, thinking about it there are more concessions that I originally thought(Ring on CoK's, no Shades, no ASF BG, no Assassin and so on), I didn't mean to come off as overly critical. It's certainly no gunline. :D

willowdark
21-09-2009, 22:01
Triple Bolt Throwers is a touchy subject. I expected to get called out on it when I posted the list, so no harm done.

I do think it's reasonable though since it gives me an extra defensive element to back up the frailty of the Execs.

Zarroc
21-09-2009, 22:12
4 bolt throwers is worst them 3 LOL

Even though it lacks duel hydra combo and ASF black gaurd, this list would be alright in friendly games, however i wouldnt take it to a tourn

willowdark
23-09-2009, 16:46
anyone else think this is too cheesy for a tourney, specifically in the North eastern U.S.?

As it stands I think it's pretty solid. I'm surprised that no one has argued against the ASF BSB on the CoB. The way I see it, the BSB is pretty necessary if I want to get the most out of the Execs, and since the ASF flag isn't anywhere else in the list, it seems useful to protect against the handful of lite fast cav, fliers and scouts that could threaten the BSB and try to get those easy VPs. I think it's something like 13 total attacks, ASF with Hatred and poison. That combined with the ward save should be more than enough protection against the few fast troops that could really threaten her. and if I encounter something like a Dragon or a Bloodthirster, or anything too tough to count on those attacks to deal with, I can just challenge my way through 3 turns.

Any thoughts?

I like the idea about splitting the Execs, but in truth, I want them to be able to break ranks if they can set up a flank charge. I think most smart players will see them as a trap and go after the Warriors instead, so I want them to be flexible enough if the enemy tries to get around their stubbornness.

Ignoring the idea that 3 RBTs could be viewed as cheesy, would trading the 3rd for a Chariot be a good idea? Chariots can be hugely effective, and the CoC is so tough that it can soak up a lot of missile fire, diverting it away from my fragile infantry. What about that?