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BobtheInquisitor
28-09-2009, 03:50
So, I was playing a game with my wife tonight when we came across a couple stumpers.

First: if a Space Marine is in one of the spaces affected by the heavy flamer, does he die on a roll of 2+? How about if a Marine walks through a burning space?

Second: The rules state that Marines can turn 90 degrees for 1 action point, but lists the price for turning 180 degrees as "-". Does this mean that terminators can't turn around at all, or does it just take two separate 90 degree turns, which seems to be more logical?

Third: Can models use their diagonal move while going around a corner, or moving into a room through the door space?

Thanks for helping me out with some answers.

Cpt. Drill
28-09-2009, 04:46
I am sure these are right.


1. Yes and yes Remember a no model can enter a burning tile, only models already on the tile can move through the fire.

2. A marine has to perform two seperate 90 degree turns.

3. you can move diagonally around a corner and into rooms.

StefDa
28-09-2009, 11:52
I thought Terminators were immune to Zael's heavy flamer? In the background (Space Hulk: The Novel), Lorenzo even has a flashback to the first time he was aboard the Sin of Damnation where they used the flamers to burn Genestealers off of each others' backs.

precinctomega
28-09-2009, 13:35
There's nothing in the rules to suggest that marines are immune to their own weapons. The heavy flamer kills on a 2+, it doesn't specify that it only kills genestealers.

This came up in my last game when the marine player flamed a genestealer in the adjacent square (it was do or die at that point) and flamed himself to death in the process.

R.

grissom2006
28-09-2009, 13:42
I thought Terminators were immune to Zael's heavy flamer? In the background (Space Hulk: The Novel), Lorenzo even has a flashback to the first time he was aboard the Sin of Damnation where they used the flamers to burn Genestealers off of each others' backs.

It's a story and the last thing they are going to say is a Marine died due to a fellow Marine toasting him.

mattjgilbert
28-09-2009, 16:56
Cpt. Drill has the right answers. And yes models and blips are killed on a 2+ by the flamer - a model could be a marine or a stealer, the rules make no distinction as to type. Technically it means you could sacrifice marines (including the flamer himself) in order to win a mission.

IIRC, in the first ed. rules, the flamer could self-destruct :D

Patriarch
28-09-2009, 18:03
Third: Can models use their diagonal move while going around a corner, or moving into a room through the door space?
Yes - as long as neither square is obstructed (e.g. by a closed door or another model).

wilsongrahams
28-09-2009, 19:00
Yes - as long as neither square is obstructed (e.g. by a closed door or another model).

Wrong, as long as BOTH aren't obstructed. If one is blocked by say the wall it is still possible as in the diagram in the rules book.

StefDa
28-09-2009, 23:23
Then where the hell did I get that idea from? It seems stupid - the mission book states that Terminator armour can survive inside volcanoes...

grissom2006
28-09-2009, 23:26
Then where the hell did I get that idea from? It seems stupid - the mission book states that Terminator armour can survive inside volcanoes...

It's called the Fluff ie stories and background rarely reflect into GW games and when it does it has a habit of being ill thought out.

wilsongrahams
28-09-2009, 23:59
The book may very well state that the armour will survive but did it mention that the marine inside wouldn't be kentucky fried? A moot point, but as stated, these things are done for game play.

thefan
29-09-2009, 04:36
I go by old school

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Issue 142 white dwarf pg 19 under other questions and I quote

Can you flame a section containing other space marines??

" NO, although it doesn't mention it in the rules, you obviously can't attack your own models. We'd always assumed this to be the case and hadn't imagined that unscrupulous players might think of killing thier own models. "

" The same goes for pyshic section effects, self destructing thunder hammers, firing assault cannons on full auto when there's a friendly model in line of fire and so forth." end quote.

I know I know it's the 1st rules but where did the new rules come from? HMM

BobtheInquisitor
29-09-2009, 08:44
Hmmm.. Does that mean you can't use the flamer on a section if there is a model (marine or genestealer) between the marine and the space you want to flame?

beef5570
29-09-2009, 09:41
Check the Q+A
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=4600019a

BobtheInquisitor
29-09-2009, 15:26
They sure didn't answer a lot of my questions.

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 16:12
You can't always just use 1st ed answers to questions though as the wording in the rules has changed a lot. As stated in that link the flamer cannot target a marine, but can target the section including the marine - imagine he is not INTENDING to target the marine, but the marine is caught in the flames anyway - the flamer marine is not in control of combustibles laying on the floor affecting how many squares he sets on fire!

Also in that link, why do blips block line of sight when a blip is always converted so will never be left to block line of sight?

Wintertooth
29-09-2009, 16:39
If they didn't block line of sight, you could reveal multiple blips at once if they were in a row. As it is, only the first is considered to have been seen and the Genestealer player doesn't have to convert the rest.

Patriarch
29-09-2009, 19:10
Wrong, as long as BOTH aren't obstructed. If one is blocked by say the wall it is still possible as in the diagram in the rules book.

The question is about going around a corner or at a doorway - both squares must be empty as per the diagram. If either Squares A or B are blocked, the marine may not walk diagonally to Square B.

In open space (e.g a large room) then the marine can get past a blockage as you say.

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 19:39
Square B isn't the one in question, it's the two that are blocking the diagonal which are Square A and Square C which is beneath Square B. Those were the two that are classed as being able to block the diagonal as B is the destination square, although you are correct, I think we were labelling the squares differently and so are both right.

BobtheInquisitor
30-09-2009, 03:44
So, can you flame past a square blocked by a model, or flame a room if the hallway leading up to it is blocked by a genestealer?

AndrewGPaul
30-09-2009, 08:39
You can't always just use 1st ed answers to questions though as the wording in the rules has changed a lot. As stated in that link the flamer cannot target a marine, but can target the section including the marine - imagine he is not INTENDING to target the marine, but the marine is caught in the flames anyway - the flamer marine is not in control of combustibles laying on the floor affecting how many squares he sets on fire!

Also in that link, why do blips block line of sight when a blip is always converted so will never be left to block line of sight?


Imagine you have 3 or 4 blips in a corridor, with a couple of spaces between them. If blips did not block LOS, as soon as a Marine got LOS down the corridor (perhaps by shooting a door), he would gain LOS to all the blips, forcing them all to convert. Since blips do block LOS, he only sees and forces conversion on the first one.

Patriarch
30-09-2009, 19:23
Imagine you have 3 or 4 blips in a corridor, with a couple of spaces between them. If blips did not block LOS, as soon as a Marine got LOS down the corridor (perhaps by shooting a door), he would gain LOS to all the blips, forcing them all to convert. Since blips do block LOS, he only sees and forces conversion on the first one.

No, it's the fact that the first blip must be instantly converted to models that the rest of the corridor remains out of LoS. The new models block LoS, the blips do not. If the first blip represented "invisible" models (i dunno, Tau Stealth troopers or whatever) then the next blip would be instantaneously revealed, and so on. The marine never actually "sees" a blip, he only rounds the corner and sees the stealers which had appeared as a blip on his sensorium.

The only way this rule could make sense is if you have e.g. armed hybrids - they couldn't shoot through their own blip to hit a marine in the back.

Wintertooth
30-09-2009, 23:01
Blips DO block line of sight, because Jervis says they do. The triggering condition for involuntary conversion is drawing line of sight to a blip. If Marines never see blips, blips are never involuntarily converted.

It's pedantic, but making it explicit means nobody can misinterpret the order things happen.

There are no invisible blips, Tau Stealth Suits or Genestealer Hybrids in Space Hulk 3rd Edition.

AndrewGPaul
30-09-2009, 23:19
No, it's the fact that the first blip must be instantly converted to models that the rest of the corridor remains out of LoS. The new models block LoS, the blips do not. If the first blip represented "invisible" models (i dunno, Tau Stealth troopers or whatever) then the next blip would be instantaneously revealed, and so on. The marine never actually "sees" a blip, he only rounds the corner and sees the stealers which had appeared as a blip on his sensorium.

The only way this rule could make sense is if you have e.g. armed hybrids - they couldn't shoot through their own blip to hit a marine in the back.

This might be an issue with interpretation. The way I saw it, if blips didn't block LOS, if the Marine moved into a position where he could see a line of blips, he would have LOS to all the blips, in the "instant" before the first one converts.

The difference in our interpretation comes down to this; is the involuntary conversion instantanous and simultaneous with the Marine gaining LOS to the blip, or are there two events:
1) Marine gains LOS to a blip
2) Blip converts
If the latter, there's room for
1.5) Marine can see through blip to the next one, etc.

This is what, I think, the FAQ item prohibits.

Patriarch
01-10-2009, 12:37
Blips DO block line of sight, because Jervis says they do. The triggering condition for involuntary conversion is drawing line of sight to a blip. If Marines never see blips, blips are never involuntarily converted.
Jervis' chum (credited on the FAQ) says they do, and I think it's a mistake, or needs further clarification of the kind we are sorting out here.


It's pedantic, but making it explicit means nobody can misinterpret the order things happen.
I think it isn't pedantic enough - rather than the poorly phrased and answered question, they should have put something like "when a marine comes across a line of blips along a corridor, are they all converted?" An explicit question with an explicit answer.


There are no invisible blips, Tau Stealth Suits or Genestealer Hybrids in Space Hulk 3rd Edition.
I was being hypothetical - in the core rules we have, I'm arguing there is never an opportunity when a blip would block LOS to anything. And there are hybrids in my 3rd edition Space Hulk:p, and they can't see or shoot through blips.


This might be an issue with interpretation. The way I saw it, if blips didn't block LOS, if the Marine moved into a position where he could see a line of blips, he would have LOS to all the blips, in the "instant" before the first one converts.
The difference in our interpretation comes down to this; is the involuntary conversion instantanous and simultaneous with the Marine gaining LOS to the blip, or are there two events:
1) Marine gains LOS to a blip
2) Blip converts
If the latter, there's room for
1.5) Marine can see through blip to the next one, etc.
This is what, I think, the FAQ item prohibits.
I think this is one of those wierd situations (like "what is the exact instant a king becomes a king?"...one of the old Terry Pratchett footnotes). The FAQ is supposed to make things clearer, and I think that particular Q&A has muddied things for new players. They should have spelled out the problem and solution as you have above.

AndrewGPaul
01-10-2009, 15:03
I was being hypothetical - in the core rules we have, I'm arguing there is never an opportunity when a blip would block LOS to anything. And there are hybrids in my 3rd edition Space Hulk:p, and they can't see or shoot through blips.

Well, that's the thing - the game designer's FAQ doesn't need to include other people's house rules. :)

I agree, if the game included hybrids or whatever, it might need more explanation. However, since it's unlikely that there'll be any expansions, they don't need to give an explanation for a general case that will never exist.

(This is also my opinion regarding the thread on clarifying the LOS rules in the Space Hulk 3rd ed entry on BGG; the arguement seems to be that the rules are unclear when a Marine is on an offset corssroads piece. Since such a piece does not exist in the game, that's not a fault in the rules. :) )

In any case, the FAQ states blips block LOS. Not sure how that's muddying the waters for new players. I had to sit down and consider whether there was ever a condition where this would come into play. I would suggest most players would simply accept the ruling, and never bother worrying if it would ever be necessary.

As to wierd timing issues, I think I've been hanging around the Privateer Press boards for too long - over there, "taking sufficient damage to be destroyed", "being destroyed" and "being removed from the table" are all separate conditions. The full flow chart for resolving an attack takes up half a page. :)

Gdolkin
16-10-2009, 13:02
Um, there is an offset crossroads tile in the new SH, and I can see how it's tempting to think one should have LOS in certain positions, but the rulebook is clear on what is LOS and what isn't. It's all about the 3/5/7/etc triangle in front of the model: If any of those squares between the model and his target is blocked by anything, he has no LOS. I agree that certain setups LOOK like they should give LOS from our God's-eye perspective, but the rules and the diagrams are clear. As for blips, I'm with Patriarch. It's not like a marine turns a corner and what was a blip slowly shimmers into a solid genestealer like in a star trek teleporter or something, allowing him to see any other blips behind the first one. Blips are not what a marine sees with his eyes, they are readings on his sensorium. There are not actually green lights travelling along the corridors which spawn genestealers when they enter a marine's LOS. The green lights were genestealers all along, the marines just couldn't see them until they could see them..The map represents both the actual physical corridors and the map of them the marines have of their sensoriums. The instant he 'sees' a blip in his LOS, it is no longer a blip, it is a big dirty opaque genestealer or two or three. There was indeed no need to specify that blips block LOS, as they cease to be blips as soon as they enter LOS. jeez... is this a bit too philosophical for some people? In fact, I'd say blips cannot block LOS as they cannot BE in LOS, for the instant they are, they are not blips, see?

AndrewGPaul
16-10-2009, 14:49
That's the difference between game rules and reality. That FAQ entry was, IMO, required just to eliminate any possible loophole that could be exploited.

As for the offset crossroads, I don't remember punching one of those out - I thought there were only regular crossroads and rooms. My mistake.

wilsongrahams
16-10-2009, 21:38
As for LOS, does anybody else have the PC game Vengeance of the Blood Angels? In the Mission Grand Hall, how would you define LOS from a marine in the hall to a genestealer in one of the corners along the wall? From some angles you'd be struggling to call on yes or no. This doesn't apply to the usual rooms etc in space hulk but LOS at funny angles could make a difference.

ttsgosadow
25-10-2009, 12:33
Then where the hell did I get that idea from? It seems stupid - the mission book states that Terminator armour can survive inside volcanoes...
The book also states that power fists are terrible weapons, capable of tearing through any material with ease. Somehow these terrible weapons of destruction, wielded by the Emperor's finest, fail to roll more then 1 die at close combat.
Its a GW product, meaning that fluff and game rules are very distinct, and dont have to make sense.

carlisimo
25-10-2009, 22:28
That makes sense... like in 40k, power fists are powerful but slow. If you land a blow, great, but it's a big if.

Znail
26-10-2009, 06:36
No, it's the fact that the first blip must be instantly converted to models that the rest of the corridor remains out of LoS. The new models block LoS, the blips do not. If the first blip represented "invisible" models (i dunno, Tau Stealth troopers or whatever) then the next blip would be instantaneously revealed, and so on. The marine never actually "sees" a blip, he only rounds the corner and sees the stealers which had appeared as a blip on his sensorium.

The only way this rule could make sense is if you have e.g. armed hybrids - they couldn't shoot through their own blip to hit a marine in the back.

There is no rule that says that the blip closest to a marine is the one converted first. So without the clarification that blips blocks LOS so would it be perfectly legal to convert the one furthest away first and so on.

wilsongrahams
26-10-2009, 20:16
I just used common sense and never ever had an issue with that - a blip represents genestealers - they are supposed to have been there all along, and they block line of sight, so a blip does. I just think some people were trying to use the letter of the rules to twist it to gain an advantage and so it needed FAQing. Muppets, I say... Genestealers aren't shipped into combat in cardboard discs before jumping out when marines are in sight. Common snese answers most issues on the FAQ but the really tricky Q's aren't covered for some reason. I think they took the easy route.

Kenzaburo
27-10-2009, 11:22
So, can you flame past a square blocked by a model, or flame a room if the hallway leading up to it is blocked by a genestealer?

I'd also really like to know. Do you need LoS for the heavy flamer?

Patriarch
27-10-2009, 13:40
I'd also really like to know. Do you need LoS for the heavy flamer?

Yes, BUT...

Although it affects a whole section, the flamer still needs LOS to one square on that section to fire at it. However, that one square may be occupied by a model.

So no, you can shoot "through" a stealer in a corridor to flame the room behind him if he blocks LOS to the room. However, if the stealer is stood in the doorway (i.e. is still on the room section) then you can flame the room.