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Cpt. Drill
28-09-2009, 23:37
Okay simply enough can marines shoot each other? Not like an accidental hit with a flamer but actually shoot another marine with a stormbolter.... The rules say you can target genestealers and doors... But as you can shoot your own guys with the flamer why not a stormbolter?


Let me explain. I have included a diagram of the situation.




We were playing the first mission, 'Space marine B' has used up all his action points and the squads one command point shooting genestealers and blowing up the door. 'Flamer Marine C' needs to fire his last flamer shot into 'objective room X' but his line of sight is blocked by 'Space marine B'. Can 'Sergeant marine A' shoot and kill 'Space marine B' so that 'Flamer Marine C' can take his last shot at 'objective room X' and win the game or is he doomed to be swarmed by 'Hordes of genestealers O'?


Although this isnt covered in the rules which would suggest otherwise as shooting is always referred to as targetting genestealers. But seeing as you can flame your own guys, why not be able to shoot them if victory relies upon it?

CRasterImage
28-09-2009, 23:58
It doesn't seem like Marines shooting Marines would be in keeping with the spirit of the game, or the fluff. At least, not if all they had to do was wait a second.

HsojVvad
29-09-2009, 00:20
Well fluff wise, I say yeah, they would, because they are programmed to complete the mission at all costs. Since they are suppose to fight to win, so their shame goes away, I think they would do exactly like what just happened in your scenario.

If you are just playing with friends, and not strangers, just house rule it, one way or the other. I don't know if it's legal or not.

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 00:30
Absolutely not! If you are using the fluff version, then surely the sergeant would tell him to move as they don't have AP's in reality.

Game wise, if you cannot complete your mission objective because you have a model in the way, that is poor execution and planning and you should think ahead and have moved him before going onto the next marine.

This is what Command Points are for.

Rules wise, you can flame your fellow marine's, but nothing else but an exploding assault cannon can harm them - except the stealers that is.

Gekiganger
29-09-2009, 00:36
Could argue that fluffwise they'd complete a mission at the expense of a marines life, but I'd argue shooting them in the back do get a line of sight isn't quite how such a circumstance would occur, having to explode / flame somwehere with marines is one thing, shooting them instead of telling them to move (albeit the ap in SH limits how much a marine can move, but as Wilsongrahams said - plan ahead).

Rulewise I don't think it says either way - so it's a houserule issue (unless errata is released, but I'm not sure how offten 'can I shoot one of my limited, precious terminators' comes up.

If the mission really comes down to LOS being blocked by a marine I'd generally be willing to lose the mission and laugh it off - it is a tad funny losing a mission because marine x wouldn't get the damn hell out of the line of fire.

thefan
29-09-2009, 04:31
Issue 142 white dwarf pg 19 under other questions and I quote

Can you flame a section containing other space marines??

" NO, although it doesn't mention it in the rules, you obviously can't attack your own models. We'd always assumed this to be the case and hadn't imagined that unscrupulous players might think of killing thier own models. "

" The same goes for pyshic section effects, self destructing thunder hammers, firing assault cannons on full auto when there's a friendly model in line of fire and so forth." end quote.

I know I know it's the 1st rules but where did the new rules come from? HMM

torn
29-09-2009, 15:54
the whole idea of shooting one of your own squad mates in the back is absurd. Fluff and game wise.

Fluff wise the marines would not under any circumstances sacrifice the lives of other marines. of themselves maybes they would, but the idea of one astartes killing another is abhorrent to them. Doing so for the sake of getting a shot in would be considered murder.

Game wise the point of space hulk is planning your moves in the limited time you have to not get into such a situation. the game from the marines point of view is to get the right men in the right places at the right times. If you arent doing that then you will lose.

as for your diagram you would just have to move all your men back a step, using whatever action and command points you have.

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 16:07
Exactly. If your flamer was already in position to fire, why did you stand still shooting when your marines could have moved out of the way. If they failed to kill all the stealers it wouldn't have mattered as you could flame the room and win anyway.

Grapeshot
29-09-2009, 17:32
You cannot shoot at fellow marines. At least this is how I interpret from the official Q&A, where your flamer cannot target a square occupied by a marine.

Cpt. Drill
29-09-2009, 17:39
the whole idea of shooting one of your own squad mates in the back is absurd. Fluff and game wise.

Fluff wise the marines would not under any circumstances sacrifice the lives of other marines. of themselves maybes they would, but the idea of one astartes killing another is abhorrent to them. Doing so for the sake of getting a shot in would be considered murder.


If your going on fluff... The mission is about stopping genestealers being able to escape the space hulk and infect countless worlds. I would sacrifice one man to do that... Maybe thats why they wont let me be a space marine.



as for your diagram you would just have to move all your men back a step, using whatever action and command points you have.


Exactly. If your flamer was already in position to fire, why did you stand still shooting when your marines could have moved out of the way. If they failed to kill all the stealers it wouldn't have mattered as you could flame the room and win anyway.

I was playing the stealers on this mission my opponent had to destroy two genestealers and a door that were blocking LOS to the room, he only picked up one command point despite having a sergeant still alive. The plan he had looked great but without the extra command points he was screwed. This was the last turn for the marines as all of them were surrounded and each man had several stealers in range to charge each guy in the side and rear.


At first I was not so convinced but now I think you should be able to... Most of the time there will be no advantage what so ever. Shooting your own guys is suicide right? But in those few times when it is win or lose time for a mission, I believe that marines would have to make those hard decisions.

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 19:45
If things have gone that badly wrong then sure they would be desperate, but I'd still think the marines would try to fight and survive rather than kill each other.

In your example surely the flamer could have fired at one junction, turned and used last ap and cp to fire again blocking two lines of attack. The stealers killing the others should still be over a turn away so next turn you can flame the target.

It just really doesn't feel right to shoot your own men, plus other than as a game mechanic it would never happen - the time taken to shoot and get through the armour the marine could just step forwards or jump or something.

torn
29-09-2009, 21:26
its true storm bolter vs terminator armour isnt a good fight for the storm bolter. going back to 2nd ed terminator armour was 3+ on 2d6, and storm bolter was -2 save i think (despite being strength 4), 1 sustained fire dice, i think odd were that you wouldnt kill a terminator with a storm bolter.

In the space hulk rules there is nothing for marines to shoot at each other (or for any xenos at all to shoot marines). I personally would not allow it. The marine player should use better planning and strategy. that is the point of the game.

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 21:58
In first ed rules, a Storm Bolter required a 6 to kill a terminator. However you were not allowed to target your own models. It was added to their weapon charts as they had hybrids with bolters. As you should know a Terminator has tougher armour than a stealer so make of that what you will. I still believe you shouldn't, but do as you will traitor!

Cpt. Drill
29-09-2009, 22:30
If things have gone that badly wrong then sure they would be desperate, but I'd still think the marines would try to fight and survive rather than kill each other.

In your example surely the flamer could have fired at one junction, turned and used last ap and cp to fire again blocking two lines of attack. The stealers killing the others should still be over a turn away so next turn you can flame the target.

It just really doesn't feel right to shoot your own men, plus other than as a game mechanic it would never happen - the time taken to shoot and get through the armour the marine could just step forwards or jump or something.

The flamer had one shot left....

wilsongrahams
29-09-2009, 23:03
Ah... you really were in a pickle. You didn't mention whether you followed the correct protocol at this point.

Close your eyes. Make the sign of the Aquila, and say 'The Emperor Protects'...

Despoiler
29-09-2009, 23:38
i see where your coming from but quoting out of date rules for a game thats been updated is well... flawed... to a point anyway.

lets see...


Issue 142 white dwarf pg 19 under other questions and I quote

Can you flame a section containing other space marines??

" NO, although it doesn't mention it in the rules, you obviously can't attack your own models. We'd always assumed this to be the case and hadn't imagined that unscrupulous players might think of killing thier own models. "

3rd ed allows you to flame sections containing spacemarines 'as long as there is an empty square or a genestealer' (from the FAQ (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222791))


" The same goes for pyshic section effects, self destructing thunder hammers, firing assault cannons on full auto when there's a friendly model in line of fire and so forth." end quote.

well actually i agree on all points here (except for the thunder hammer which is due to the fact that doesn't happen anymore).

AndrewGPaul
30-09-2009, 08:42
Full Auto fire from the assault cannon doesn't happen any more either.

chromedog
30-09-2009, 10:33
In first ed rules, a Storm Bolter required a 6 to kill a terminator. However you were not allowed to target your own models. It was added to their weapon charts as they had hybrids with bolters. As you should know a Terminator has tougher armour than a stealer so make of that what you will. I still believe you shouldn't, but do as you will traitor!

Ah, but they also had traitor (CSM) terminators, which explains the kill score for terminators. We used to have terminator v terminator games and they were cool.