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LordLucan
09-10-2009, 15:47
Is he ever depicted as dying in the films or books? Or is he one of the orcs that seem to escape Mordor at the end of RotK?

Also, do Orcs still remain in middle earth during the fourth age? Or do they die off after the Dark Lord is banished?

Khorneguy
09-10-2009, 16:31
Aragorn kills him in the films on pellanor fields

not sure he's even in the book

LordLucan
09-10-2009, 16:53
I didn't mean Gothmog. I meant the Mordor Uruk Hai leader. The dude who nicks Frodo's mithril shirt.

Nuada
09-10-2009, 17:34
Yes Shagrat was in the books, he's the captain of the Tower of Cirith Ungol.

He brought the mithril shirt, an elf cloak and Sams sword as evidence of Frodo, he was then killed by Sauron.

Then the Mouth of Sauron took those items to show Aragorn and co. at the black gates.

Don't know how Sauron killed him, maybe just a glare in his direction.

LordLucan
09-10-2009, 17:42
Sauron killed him? I didn't realise that! Does it say so in the book?

C-Coen
09-10-2009, 21:33
I'm pretty sure it's said, yes, somewhere. Can't remember where, but I believe that's what happened and at the very least, I can't mix is up with the movies as it didn't happen there! Gah, it's such a shame those movies stay in my memories while the words of Tolkien don't.

On the subject of orcs, I think most fled to the dark places of the world, killing each other and slowly getting extinct.

LordLucan
09-10-2009, 21:38
Aww. I was thinking of having a post-sauron themed orc horde. Nevermind.

Erethor
09-10-2009, 22:29
Aww. I was thinking of having a post-sauron themed orc horde. Nevermind.

Well why not? I don't recall anywhere in the book saying that Shagrat was killed. Maybe he fought at the Black Gate, survived, and fled with the other orcs.

You could say the orcs took up residence in Mount Gram and Mount Gundabad, allowing them to raid Arnor and Rohavanion, while recruiting orcs from the misty mountains and the surrounding areas.

Just saying.

Nuada
10-10-2009, 08:13
Sauron killed him? I didn't realise that! Does it say so in the book?

It's one of those obscure ones. In RotK it says Shagrat runs away from Sam, and takes those items to Barad Dr. After that you never hear of Shagrat again. Then in either a Tolkien letter or Unfinished Tales it says Sauron killed him.

C-Coen
10-10-2009, 08:17
Well, the extinction of orcs was quite a slow process, I think.
I can see quite a bunch surviving and continue raiding villages and the like. The most important part of your 'background' would be some leader. The reason why the Orcs scattered after the Black Gate battle, was, or so I think, that they always need a strong leader. Not only did they lose Sauron, but the Nazgul also 'died'. You could either invent some intelligent/very brutal Orcish creature, or maybe better, a Black Numenorean. Good luck with it!

LordLucan
10-10-2009, 10:37
That was why I was asking about Shagrat to be honest, as he seemed like a good candidate for strong leader. However, A Black Numenorean or Easterling or something could work. Cheers C-Coen!

TheSmilingGoat
18-10-2009, 18:19
a black numenorean would work well, or a balrog or some form of dragon, being that there the strongest of Morgoths servents left, some would probly try and make a grab for power as sauron did after morgoths capture.

brightblade
19-10-2009, 21:01
There would also be a horde from Mount Gundabad that assailed the woodland kingdoms! They would not have been wiped out straight away. Plenty of opportunity for FA orc warbands.

Baggers
29-10-2009, 13:43
According to the Encyclopaedia of Arda; Shagrat gets Frodo's possessions to Barad Dur and thats all we know. As far as I am aware he is not mentioned as being killed, so we can safely assume that he died in the tower as it collapsed.

His Arda entry is here (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/s/shagrat.html)

On the subject of Orcs in the 4th age. I think you could do a themed 4th age Orc army, there are many places that Orcs lived. Misty Mountains for an example. So you could do it. Though I would recommend shying away from any named Orc heroes as they would be dead.

Also Gothmog is in the Book, he takes charge of the army at Pleannor after the death of the Witch King, though if he is an Orc, Man or something else. Professor Tolkien never says we don't know. PJ just interpreted him as an Orc.

Arda entry is here (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gothmog2.html)

Nuada
02-11-2009, 08:00
In JRR Tolkiens latest and only complete manuscript time-scheme (called Scheme for short) he mentions that Shagrat is slain by Sauron. So it's one of those obscure things that happens in Tolkiens letters. It's not in the RotK, that's probably why the Encyclopaedia of Arda doesn't mention it..... bit geeky of me to remember that, but there you go. I blame my Merp days :D

Nuada
02-11-2009, 08:06
Baggers that search engine misses a few things out, try this one http://www.tuckborough.net/peopleindex.html i think it's a very good search engine for LotR

Baggers
04-11-2009, 21:25
Yeah, Arda only uses the main three books as its sources - Lotr, Hobbit and Silmarillion, so it won't cover everything as the three books don't have all the things in the historys or his letters. I've never heard of this scheme any links?

Nuada
04-11-2009, 22:07
The letters are all in a book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Letters_of_J._R._R._Tolkien

Scheme is referred to often in a book i've got called "The Lord of the Rings, a reader's companion" . I got my copy off ebay, it's quite good. It has all the normal chapters of the three books, then gives more detail. For example when strider is first mentioned it says that originally Strider was going to be a hobbit that wore wooden shoes, and was nicknamed Trotter for the "clitter-clap" sound that his shoes made.

Another example... It also gives detailed accounts of where all the nazgul are in Bree. Khamul leaves one near the bridge to watch it, and sends two along the east road with orders to report to the Witch King. He himself with another passes secretly into Buckland by the north gate. But desiring to attract as little notice as possible he (mistakenly and against Sauron's orders) sacrifices speed to stealth...... I love extra details like that. I recommend that book :)

VeriNasti
16-11-2009, 07:06
Was reading one of the extra books and this is what I read -
Shagrat and Gorbag fight blah blah blah. Shagrat and all his mordor uruks are killed, and Gorbag lives with 3 other orcs. 2 orcs are sent off to expalin to Sauron. Sam comes in, kills the orc and then heads upstairs to kill Gorbag

Urath
18-11-2009, 16:38
Strange that the smaller and weaker Orcs were able to triumph over Uruks.

VeriNasti
22-11-2009, 09:08
There were more orcs than uruks if I remember correctly.

Nuada
22-11-2009, 10:58
Was reading one of the extra books and this is what I read -
Shagrat and Gorbag fight blah blah blah. Shagrat and all his mordor uruks are killed, and Gorbag lives with 3 other orcs. 2 orcs are sent off to expalin to Sauron. Sam comes in, kills the orc and then heads upstairs to kill Gorbag

Shagrat and Gorbag are both Uruks. In the film version, Gorbag is a small Orc while Shagrat remains a large Uruk.

In the Return of the King book Shagrat takes the mithril shirt to Barad dur, it's in the timeline section at the back. Shagrat kills Gorbag, then Sam runs upstairs with sting, lunges at Shagrat. Shagrat leaps to one side, avoids Sam, then runs with his new treasure to Barad Dur.



"He fought with Shagrat and wounded him with a knife, and Shagrat strangled Gorbag and left him for dead. But Gorbag was still alive and he lunged at Shagrat with a broken spear and tried to take the mithril shirt from him. Shagrat stabbed Gorbag in the throat and killed him and then stomped and slashed his body."