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Max1mum
12-10-2009, 09:56
Would the Dark Angels and Blood Angels share a codex ?

...after all, the marine codex has several chapters sharing a dex as well...

-edit-

harry said "not angels of death"

Isn't Angels of death a collective term for -all- Space marines ? ...

So 'not angels of death' either rules out all marines or doesn't rule out anything...

Schlupp
12-10-2009, 10:11
Angels of death was the name of the 2.ed Dark/Blood Angels "combi" codex. This was coverd some pages ago.

Max1mum
12-10-2009, 10:19
o....i must have missed a post while skimming over this ...

My apoligy's ...i might have missed it because i was so darn hopefull that it might actualy be a new Dark Angels dex :P ;-)

On a different note, seeing Nids en Blood angels back to back seems kinda fair to me, with spacehulk out and all. It's a oppertunity that should not be missed.

~sets up camp in the rumour forum until the rest becomes clear

Brimstone
12-10-2009, 10:33
Just so we can end this discussion (although it will probably be repeated in a couple of pages).

No Angels of Death codex, this is a single Chapter codex and that is the Blood Angels.

Hankyaku
12-10-2009, 10:38
the inclusion of blood angels as an offical codex gives GW a reason to release a Spaze Mareen army every year until the edition's codex run is complete and they release a new set of core rules.

how many do we have after the inclusion of BA?

1. Main Codex Astartes
2. Dark Angels
3. Black Templar
4. Space Wolves
5. Blood Angels

One space marine codex a year for 5 years and a new core rulebook after that. makes sense economically.

Its all business guys, just business.

Putty: Remember, that the order wasn't like that. The DA were the last before the new SM codex (the "test" for numerous rules). Not to mention that the SW skipped an entire edition (4th), like BA. I think speculating the order of non astartes chapters is a bit early - BT or DA will follow BA? And of course when? IMHO if they take this pace of releasing new codices, then there'll be no new marine book until late 2011 (which is I think absolutely okay taking a look at the current book).

Putty
12-10-2009, 11:50
Putty: Remember, that the order wasn't like that. The DA were the last before the new SM codex (the "test" for numerous rules). Not to mention that the SW skipped an entire edition (4th), like BA. I think speculating the order of non astartes chapters is a bit early - BT or DA will follow BA? And of course when? IMHO if they take this pace of releasing new codices, then there'll be no new marine book until late 2011 (which is I think absolutely okay taking a look at the current book).

The list wasn't in according to order.

I'd say so if it was.

Benzan
12-10-2009, 12:18
Just wishlisting a bit.
in the 2nd ed. chaos codex Bloodangels got frenzy while within x" of Abbadon since he wields the talon of Horus (the weapon that slayed sanguinius) woulden't a similar rule be just sweet. for instance:

Slayer of the Angel
All bloodangel units within 6" of Abbadon the Despoiler (ref. Codex CSM) get the preferred enemy rule towards him and any black legion CSM. they also get furious charge and/or counterattack while in the same distance.
All Blood Angel units within 12" must pass a LD test or are forced to move as close to Abbadon as possible and must assault if they can.

Just for fun and they should be kinda mad at him for holding that weapon that surely must be destroyed.

Murphy's law
12-10-2009, 13:02
Just wishlisting a bit.
in the 2nd ed. chaos codex Bloodangels got frenzy while within x" of Abbadon since he wields the talon of Horus (the weapon that slayed sanguinius) woulden't a similar rule be just sweet. for instance:

Slayer of the Angel
All bloodangel units within 6" of Abbadon the Despoiler (ref. Codex CSM) get the preferred enemy rule towards him and any black legion CSM. they also get furious charge and/or counterattack while in the same distance.
All Blood Angel units within 12" must pass a LD test or are forced to move as close to Abbadon as possible and must assault if they can.

Just for fun and they should be kinda mad at him for holding that weapon that surely must be destroyed.

Sounds like fun, unfortunately it has been several years ago since i saw someone play Black Legion.

Odin
12-10-2009, 13:05
Oh no, someone else is going to start playing your codex and doing it differently? :eek:

tragic.



My Codex? Never played Blood Angels, never will. But I just don't like to see the fluff ignored in favour of gimmicky rules.

Darthvegeta800
12-10-2009, 13:15
Sounds like fun, unfortunately it has been several years ago since i saw someone play Black Legion.

Hey! *shakes fist* I play Abaddon's Legion!
I never saw an army of Space Wolves, Dark Eldar, Dark Angels,... and quite a few more in r/l. Local preferences are not indicative of how much a Legion is played. IW, WB, Black Legion and Death Guard are probably most played but it is hard to tell.

In any case, an Angels of Death codex or seperate release is fine by me. As long as the Necrons get their codex in 2011 and both Daemonhunters and Dark Eldar are allowed to pop up in 2012.

DeathTyrant
12-10-2009, 15:33
Just wishlisting a bit.
in the 2nd ed. chaos codex Bloodangels got frenzy while within x" of Abbadon since he wields the talon of Horus (the weapon that slayed sanguinius) woulden't a similar rule be just sweet. for instance:I absolutely LOVED that rule, even though I myself only played Orks at the time.

:D
2E Talon of Horus:
Causes TERROR in Imperial Forces, except for Blood Angel Space Marines, who are subject to HATRED instead.

I can imagine squads breaking before Abaddon's onslaught, only for a close by group of BA devastators to foam at the mouth and charge him, using Lascannons and Missile Launchers as clubs! :evilgrin:

Gray Hunter
12-10-2009, 16:38
Or, the release that closely follows/is released alongside Blood Angels is a Xenos book, thus following the Marine/Xenos/Marin/Xenos pattern. Your suggestion has it at Xeno (Tyranids)/Marine (Blood Angels)/Marine (other chapter) /Xeno, which is different!

Yes, I know it's different, which is why I thought it linked to Harry's "more or less" statement. My point was that there will still be equal numbers of Xenos and Marine codices this year, and the Xenos/Marine alternating pattern basically holds true except that one pair of Xenos/Marine is flipped.

It's academic now since Brimstone has clearly stated it will be a single Blood Angels release. So perhaps the order is:

Tyranids
Blood Angels
Xenos
Xenos
Marines

That would be a lot of releases in 2010, but they are getting out of the gate early with Tyranids in January. Blood Angels and some other Marine Chapter won't need that much work in terms of sculpts (if GW continues to follow the awesome Space Wolves plan for minis). Tau and Necrons have a pretty decent miniatures range too, so if they get codices this year I'd imagine they will be filling in gaps (plastic Immortals, etc.) rather than redoing Troops choices.

It seems to me that the recent slowing of the release schedule has been due to the designers being pulled off their Codex projects two or three years ago to focus most of their time on 5th edition. Now that that's been out of the way for a year or so, I think we will see more releases coming down the pipe next year. The other delaying factor seems to be that there are never enough sculptors, despite the team being bigger than ever. Considering that and the costs of making new moulds for plastics, I expect that GW will focus on armies that already have decent plastics which they can re-release alongside a couple of new kits.

Just my thoughts.

Darthvegeta800
12-10-2009, 16:53
I absolutely LOVED that rule, even though I myself only played Orks at the time.

:D
2E Talon of Horus:
Causes TERROR in Imperial Forces, except for Blood Angel Space Marines, who are subject to HATRED instead.

I can imagine squads breaking before Abaddon's onslaught, only for a close by group of BA devastators to foam at the mouth and charge him, using Lascannons and Missile Launchers as clubs! :evilgrin:

And be crushed by the might of the Warmaster! :D
But yes it is an interesting rule. Very fluffy.

Vegeta365
12-10-2009, 19:38
Ok, the latest rumor threads and especially this one got me thinking. I created an excel to understand the pattern and here's what it think, we have had SM, IG and SW in a row after 5th. That's 3 imperials, 2 marines. Tyranids are definitely next so we are left with BAs(who are also confirmed next) and according to Harry something else non-DA.

The armies left that need 5th edition update are BTs, DE, Tau, Crons, Sisters and DH (since Eldar, CSM, Orks, DAs where supposedly made with 5th in mind). So with BAs done we are left with zero marines to continue the pattern (marine/non-marine). If DAs are included, which is not fair IMHO, we will have something like: BAs, DE, DAs, Crons, Tau, DH. So, i think BTs are along BAs or take the place of DAs.

Judging however by the dedication of GW to marines (and the zeal of DA players who want a new dex) i don't think Dark Angels will wait for 6th like the other armies designed with 5th in mind. I also find it difficult to believe that they will release a xenos along with a marine codex. So the schedule will likely be:BAs+BTs, DE, DAs, Crons, DH, Tau leaving one slot before 6th edition comes summer 2012 which will most likely be Witch-hunters.

Then GW can start all over again updating marines :D

Believe it or not Eldar are earlier than you may think, and certainly earlier than some of the armies you list!

Cant wait for Blood Angels. My flesh tearers can't wait to get lots more use, and I may have to make another Blood Angels army and go realy old school on the colour scheme. As to what will be the oter half to the story, I guess we will find out soon enough ;-)

Far Seer
13-10-2009, 02:25
WOW new BA? awesome. i asked my local GW and they confirmed it. new BA codex next year. this is just too good to be true. space hulk models are so heavily detailed. i'm wondering if the BA stuff actually get cheaper? coz standard tactical squad, it's over 200 points for 10 man.

Frgt/10
13-10-2009, 03:36
WOW new BA? awesome. i asked my local GW and they confirmed it. new BA codex next year. this is just too good to be true. space hulk models are so heavily detailed. i'm wondering if the BA stuff actually get cheaper? coz standard tactical squad, it's over 200 points for 10 man.

11 actually, because the DC marine is included in the cost

im of the opinion that its going to be an apoc release alongside it. I cant see GW ever releasing 2 codex's simultaneously unless one is a WD list.
Im thinking a plastic thunderhawk/trygon. seems more likely than a new DA/BT dex honestly

Fanboy
13-10-2009, 07:24
Hello,

This is all good,................BA rumours, new codex, release date, etc, etc......

Any more info/rumours on the new BA dex? other than what is posted on BoLS?

I live in the ass end of Africa, Crime Central........South Africa. We have no Games Day as the rest of Europe, Aus, USA and UK, so we hear very little regarding GW releases. I thrive of info on this site, and any other. So it would be great if there was anymore news/rumours on the new BA codex......

Yours Thankfully

Fanboy

MajorWesJanson
13-10-2009, 07:34
Even learning about the existence of BA as the next dex is currently a pretty big coup (Though some people predicted it ;) ) . The rumor lockdown means that even Codex nids, the next one out, is still limited to the cover, prices for new kits, and a couple of pictures of repainted models and backgrounds.

Brimstone
13-10-2009, 09:06
A large amound of non Blood Angel discussion removed.

A reminder this is a thread for rumour discussion on the Blood Angels not Eldar, Forgeworld or Necron etc.

Further off topic discussion will be removed and potentially action taken against those who carry on despite reminders.

The Warseer Inquisition

Jaythulhu
13-10-2009, 09:49
Whilst I care little for the forces of the false-god, a BA / Death Company plastics box would be nice.

Sons of Sanguinius
13-10-2009, 10:16
Whilst I care little for the forces of the false-god, a BA / Death Company plastics box would be nice.
I agree. Someone said earlier that the Baal would likely end up as a 100% plastic kit because of GW's trend towards non-mixed kits. The plastic Death Company makes sense, and so does someone else's suggestion of plastic upgrade sprues a la the new SW sprues.

I guess technically this counts as wishlisting, but it seems the following are the most logical new model releases for BA:

Plastic Death Company (would include jump packs and normal backpacks)
Plastic Baal Predator
Plastic Furioso Dreadnought (would include Death Company upgrade bits)
New metal Characters
Plastic upgrade/specialty sprue(s) (tac marines/assault marines/generic BA gubbins)

Just my two cents.

wilsongrahams
13-10-2009, 10:48
I personally believe that assault marines and death company will be the same box with minor detail differences in optional parts. This may have the extra parts for adding to tac squads too.

The Baal and Furioso are also likely, Baal more so.

Would love new characters but want resculpts of the old ones, just better like in UM and SW.

As for Terminators there could be two options - the Space Hulk termies released as a box or an upgrade like the space wolves got.

Perfect Organism
13-10-2009, 11:08
I guess technically this counts as wishlisting, but it seems the following are the most logical new model releases for BA:

Plastic Death Company (would include jump packs and normal backpacks)
Plastic Baal Predator
Plastic Furioso Dreadnought (would include Death Company upgrade bits)
New metal Characters
Plastic upgrade/specialty sprue(s) (tac marines/assault marines/generic BA gubbins)

I very much doubt that BA will get more than a couple of sprues. SW got their troops box and terminators, DA got veterans and the ravenwing sprue, so I expect BA to get two plastic releases at most. If I had to guess, I'd say Death Company (five DC marines with plenty of spare bits to decorate several squads of normal BA) and a single vehicle box (probably the Baal Predator).

Lord_Dante
13-10-2009, 11:34
I think really it would be easy enough to include death company parts as a generic blood angel upgrade. Just throw in some crossed shoulder pads, shoulder pads with extra skulls and you're done. Other than colour scheme there isn't much difference in the models. I mix and match models in my army all the time.

aka_mythos
13-10-2009, 11:38
If their sprue is anything as packed as the space wolves sprue, the Death Company will likely just be the troop box but where you assemble them with a different set of shoulder pads off the one sprue.

The furioso could simply be done as part of a recut of them Space Marines dreadnought, or they could simply say to use an Ironclad, without certain options.

The Baal Predator could easily just switch out the weapon sprue in the predator kit for a new one.

At this point its reduced to two chapter specific sprues and a all marines recut.

shabbadoo
13-10-2009, 12:46
I believe we'll see a basic Blood Angels Squad sprue set similar to the SW Pack sprues, such that by blending it with other kits you can make any Blood Angels-specific unit: Honour Guard, Death Company, etc. One kit works for all of those. Whatever the set is named, it will work in that capacity.

And then some Blood Angels Terminators(yes, crazy I know).

Maybe a character model or two.

And the Vampire Bat Swarms. Gotta have the Vampire Bat Swarms.

(just kidding on that last one) ;)

Shibboleth
13-10-2009, 12:59
You could fit the Furioso bits and the Baal bits on a single sprue, like the BT vehicle sprue.

Ominous Anonymous
13-10-2009, 13:43
Couldn't you just use the Ironclad Kit instead? I mean, more kits for BA is good news for me as a player, but honestly I'd be fine is GW just said "Use this kit instead". For example, having shoulder pads with tons of skulls on them could be used to either build Death Company or represent 1st Company Veterans since the skull is their company symbol.

BugsOwn
13-10-2009, 14:10
I hope they improve the baal predators for the next dex

aka_mythos
13-10-2009, 14:18
Give the baal a punisher option?

I doubt we'll see BA terminators. Terminators are not as central to the blood angels like they are for some of the other chapters.

static grass
13-10-2009, 14:22
I very much doubt that BA will get more than a couple of sprues. SW got their troops box and terminators, DA got veterans and the ravenwing sprue, so I expect BA to get two plastic releases at most. If I had to guess, I'd say Death Company (five DC marines with plenty of spare bits to decorate several squads of normal BA) and a single vehicle box (probably the Baal Predator).


WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?? The space dogs got a guy riding a giant DOG.

I very much doubt we will be left out in the cold. Chaplain riding a bike? Techmarine riding a bike? Razorback options? There are lots of generic options that could still be done.

1 Termie sprue, 1 Marine Sprue and most things will be covered. These two are guaranteed to come.

Then we just need the bits for BA dreads and Baal and all of the essential stuff is covered.

If GW wants to chuck in new sculpts or units, metal veteran assault marines then they can.

Zanzibarthefirst
13-10-2009, 14:23
In theory shouldnt Death Company have the same armour as normal BA so a seperate box isnt needed at all and could combine with the assault squad box to get DC on jumppacks. The single sprue for the vehicles would porbbaly be the same size as the ravenwing one, remember that has bits for all the land speeder variants and maste rof the ravenwing along with some cool other bits.

I cannt wait till March. Do I wait til then and do my first love of 40k or do the army I should have started with, SW (since wolves are my favourite animal and im fond of Norse legends)?

Mojaco
13-10-2009, 14:55
I'll gladly jump on this bandwagon. Blood Angels are some of the coolest, and I love assault marine models.

m00ndust
13-10-2009, 14:57
Well, as long as this meant equality for all races, end of unneeded lists cluttering the release schedule, and BA and DA finally being up-to-date, I'd be quite happy actually. [...]

But yeah, as massey said, it's not going to happen because it's fair and sensible, not necessarily profitable.

The Lore in 40k is mostly about the Imperium of Man.

want proof ?

- Warhammer 40k Rulebook: besides a brief presentation of each forces, the fluff is about the Imperium of Man and a 10000 years + timeline of it's evolution.

- Space Marines chapters: obvious fluff
- Imperial Guard: as obvious...
- Tyranids: Fluff about the Battle of Maccrage and Inquisitor Kryptman
- Eldar: Fluff about Eldrad who defended Cadia against Chaos
- Dark Eldar: Fluff about them raiding Hive Cities
- Tau: Fluff about how they "steal" worlds from the Imperium and their half-honest alliance/cooperation with the Imperial Guard.
- Necrons: Mostly against Eldars but they do have fluff about the Adeptus Mechanicus worshipping a C'tan god (Machine Spirit)
- Chaos: Directly tied to the woes of the Imperium
- Inquisition: Obvious fluff
- Orks: Battle of Armageddon, Black Reach, many references of conflicts against the Imperium.

Basically, the Fluff of 40k is almost always in the Imperium's point of view. Even if you want deep, detailed fluff about a non-Imperium force... it's mostly going to be about conflicts against the Imperium.

You either are on the God-Emperor's Side or Not... having the Fluff made so that every Space Marine chapters are "ultramarines of different colors" would kill the franchise. I'd rather press that it would be ALOT better to have more "independant" codex from "new" Chapters.

I've read "Codex: Armageddon" and they had a really interesting force list for the Salamanders. Given how popular they are, I wouldn't be surprised that they'd get their own Codex in 6th Edition (since they're part of the smurf codex this edition).

TheDean
13-10-2009, 15:01
I believe we'll see a basic Blood Angels Squad sprue set similar to the SW Pack sprues, such that by blending it with other kits you can make any Blood Angels-specific unit: Honour Guard, Death Company, etc. One kit works for all of those. Whatever the set is named, it will work in that capacity.

And then some Blood Angels Terminators(yes, crazy I know).

Maybe a character model or two.

And the Vampire Bat Swarms. Gotta have the Vampire Bat Swarms.

(just kidding on that last one) ;)

This.
Most of you probably did see the SW-Sprue, and I can't think of anything BA that could not be done with it.

aka_mythos doubted the terminators. I am kinda on the fence there as well, as Termie-Pads on the "BA infantry Sprue" together with assorted bits and bobs might do the trick, and we have those beautiful SpaceHulk Termies already.

Though, given the uber-wolfy trend of the new SW, I could really see bat-warms happening, even though the Vampiry theme was never that strong in the BA as the wolvy thing was for SW.

Cadian144
13-10-2009, 15:15
Off topic a bit, and my apology to the mods. But I thought the idea of a Space Marine riding on a wolf, albeit a giant wolf as kinda out there:D
IMO;)

I mean...dont marines in gear weigh like 600-800 pounds??:wtf: Man....and i thought horses packing fully armored knights had it rough, what the hell for that poor wolf !

I degress, I had fun with that one, but the figure from the pictures looks very cool I will admit.

If they continue the trend for BA as they did with them in SH, then I agree they will look just as stunning. ( this coming from a non marine playing person :D)

static grass
13-10-2009, 15:26
I doubt we'll see BA terminators.

Didn't you buy space hulk? :D


The Lore in 40k is mostly about the Imperium of Man.

want proof ?

- Warhammer 40k Rulebook: besides a brief presentation of each forces, the fluff is about the Imperium of Man and a 10000 years + timeline of it's evolution.

- Space Marines chapters: obvious fluff
- Imperial Guard: as obvious...
- Tyranids: Fluff about the Battle of Maccrage and Inquisitor Kryptman
- Eldar: Fluff about Eldrad who defended Cadia against Chaos
- Dark Eldar: Fluff about them raiding Hive Cities
- Tau: Fluff about how they "steal" worlds from the Imperium and their half-honest alliance/cooperation with the Imperial Guard.
- Necrons: Mostly against Eldars but they do have fluff about the Adeptus Mechanicus worshipping a C'tan god (Machine Spirit)
- Chaos: Directly tied to the woes of the Imperium
- Inquisition: Obvious fluff
- Orks: Battle of Armageddon, Black Reach, many references of conflicts against the Imperium.

Basically, the Fluff of 40k is almost always in the Imperium's point of view. Even if you want deep, detailed fluff about a non-Imperium force... it's mostly going to be about conflicts against the Imperium.

You either are on the God-Emperor's Side or Not... having the Fluff made so that every Space Marine chapters are "ultramarines of different colors" would kill the franchise. I'd rather press that it would be ALOT better to have more "independant" codex from "new" Chapters.

I've read "Codex: Armageddon" and they had a really interesting force list for the Salamanders. Given how popular they are, I wouldn't be surprised that they'd get their own Codex in 6th Edition (since they're part of the smurf codex this edition).


Wow you didn't mention Blood Angels once in your post even after Brimmy issued everyone a warning.

brassangel
13-10-2009, 15:28
How did the Blood Angels, an army due for release after the Tyranids, get to keep an active rumore thread going that's full of nothing but speculation, but the Tyranid one has been shut down 987 times?

Scorcher505
13-10-2009, 15:28
I hope they improve the baal predators for the next dex

Baal Predators are already awesome... What would be nice is making overcharged engines work on a 3+ instead of a 4+. That would make me do a happy dance

Mojaco
13-10-2009, 15:34
How did the Blood Angels, an army due for release after the Tyranids, get to keep an active rumore thread going that's full of nothing but speculation, but the Tyranid one has been shut down 987 times?
My thoughts exactly. Maybe if we derail it enough this one gets closed too? :)

Just kidding, don't ban!

Ominous Anonymous
13-10-2009, 15:42
The only thing Baals really need is either to be a Fast vehicle all the time (unlikely; would be too costly as a result unless GW really wants to sell a bunch of kits) or to make Over-charged Engines go off on the 3+.

That said, it really doesn't need a buff.

EDIT: Isn't Gamesday Italy this weekend? Hopefully there's some new info there.

Shibboleth
13-10-2009, 15:46
In theory shouldnt Death Company have the same armour as normal BA so a seperate box isnt needed at all and could combine with the assault squad box to get DC on jumppacks... They may even include a fancied up Dante-style jump-pack on the sprue?
Which would be really helpful for Honour Guard, especially if it gets doubled up like the SW sprue.


WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?? The space dogs got a guy riding a giant DOG.
I very much doubt we will be left out in the cold... Careful what you wish for. There could be a psychic power that lets Tactical squads surf across the battlefield on a wave of blood. Modelled by a special red-plastic slotta-base in the shape of a wave, with every slot shaped into a psychic surfboard. :evilgrin: :cheese: :o

Poseidal
13-10-2009, 16:07
Since the Space Wolf book came with a few new units, does anyone have any idea what is likely for Blood Angels?

The last few books introduced some new model lines, so I would expect something new. (more than a few Special Characters anyway)

I hope Tycho gets a revamp, he hasn't really been the same since 2nd ed.

Zanzibarthefirst
13-10-2009, 17:00
They may even include a fancied up Dante-style jump-pack on the sprue?
Which would be really helpful for Honour Guard, especially if it gets doubled up like the SW sprue.



Ah I forgot about the honour guard. I wondewr if the techmarine option will disappear from the honour guard. 5 fancy jump packs could fit easily on any sprue tbh especially if its with the vehicle bitz as the only imporntant things woudl be bits for the furiso and baal

Black Hand
13-10-2009, 17:14
My only concern is that GW will just slap together the BA Codex. Although if the new SW codex is any indication, then they won't. I'm just happy that after so many years the BA are finally getting a redone Codex (now I just need my Inq to get an updated Codex).

As far as new models, I like the ideas floting around here about a BA Marine box set up for anything from tact squads to DC to assault marines. All with parts left over for customization. Will it happen though? Who knows? It might be too big of a box to produce. We'll just have too wait and see what the BA get. Here's hoping for 1 or 2 new special characters though.



I hope Tycho gets a revamp, he hasn't really been the same since 2nd ed.


Same here on this. But since he seemed to have pretty much died at Armageddon I doubt it. Maybe they'll bring him back in a Furioso Dreadnought? One can only dream.

aka_mythos
13-10-2009, 17:20
Didn't you buy space hulk? :D Yes I did... every edition... twice...

Just because they did those miniatures for that game doesn't mean they will do Terminators for 40k. If Blood Angels only get as much done for them as Space Wolves, it would be a shame to see Blood Angel terminiators instead of seeing a Baal Predator or a Furioso or updated Death Company. Thats why I'm doubtful of Blood Angels getting new terminators, there are just other things more worthwhile.

m00ndust
13-10-2009, 17:31
What I'd like to see in the new codex...

"Special Characters"

- Dante (keep as is)
- Mephiston (needs his "most powerful psyker after the emperor" status back)
- Corbulo (keep as is)
- Lemartes (never used, can't say)
* 1st Company Brother-Captain Raphael
* 1st Company Brother <forgot his name> who's the 600 years old sergeant in Space Hulk
* Death Company "upgrade character" (could be Tycho but I usually prefer dead people to... stay dead) with a unique ability of his own.

HQ
- Captain that can use Bikes...
- Chaplain with option of having a Death Mask (-1 Ld to opponents)
* Forgeworld's Veteran Chaplain Dreadnought
- Option for librarians to cast 2 spells per turn (Wings then add attacks on same turn.)
- Either give Furious Charge to Honour Guard or make the "special role" upgrades cheaper.

Elite
- Fix Assault Terminators
- Upgrade the Furioso so it has the Ironclad's armor value (only that)
- Give Furious Charge to Veteran Assault Marines

Troops
- Tactical Marines with options for 2nd Assault Weapon instead of a Heavy Weapon
- Assault Marines with options for 2 Assault Weapons and Furious Charge upgrade

Fast Attack
- Scouts as Fast Attack instead of Elites with Land Speeder Storm as transport
- Bike Squadrons with option of 1 Attack Bike

Heavy Support
- Land Raider Reedemer

Argastes
13-10-2009, 18:43
Why, why, why do people think that Assault Marines should be troops choices. Blood Angels don't have any more assault squads than the Ultramarines or any other chapter. The ability to equip Veteran squads with jump packs (veteran asslt. squads), and the ability to take turbocharged rhinos, do a fine job of representing their assault-driven tactics. They don't need to be fielding assault squads as the core of their army too.

Darthvegeta800
13-10-2009, 18:53
Why, why, why do people think that Assault Marines should be troops choices. Blood Angels don't have any more assault squads than the Ultramarines or any other chapter. The ability to equip Veteran squads with jump packs (veteran asslt. squads), and the ability to take turbocharged rhinos, do a fine job of representing their assault-driven tactics. They don't need to be fielding assault squads as the core of their army too.

Why not? Fluff is frequently retconned. And people like the idea.
So why not?

Prodigalson
13-10-2009, 19:06
Agreed, I wish they had taken a little more liberty with DA's instead of trying to fit them into the box. Let's let BA's out of their box, and let them play. Their gene seed is breaking down, their all going iNsAnE with the black rage. It's better then the (crud, I rolled a '1' I have to move my devestator's out of position) stuff they had. They try to be a codex chapter, they simply fail.

Also remember it's not just BA's it's all the sub chapters as well. I can easily see the Fleshtearers with all assault troops as scoring.

Space wolves have always had the assault troops in rhinos for the imperium cornered. Black Templars do it on foot without transports.

Flying.
That's how Sanquines did it.
That's how the Blood Angels do it.
And it's worked out pretty good so far.

Black Hand
13-10-2009, 19:09
What I'd like to see in the new codex...
"Special Characters"

- Dante (keep as is)
- Mephiston (needs his "most powerful psyker after the emperor" status back)
- Corbulo (keep as is)
- Lemartes (never used, can't say)
* 1st Company Brother-Captain Raphael
* 1st Company Brother <forgot his name> who's the 600 years old sergeant in Space Hulk
* Death Company "upgrade character" (could be Tycho but I usually prefer dead people to... stay dead) with a unique ability of his own.


Aside from the two Space Hulk characters I agree with you here. Chaplin Lemartes will be one to stay though. No one else feels right leading the Death Company. As for Tycho, as much as I love the character I doubt he will return. But sometimes in the 40K universe death is not a career ending injury. So who knows? We might see him return (in a Furioso Dreadnought I hope). My choices for new characters in the BA Codex would have to be Rafen and Arkio the Blessed from Deus Encarmine and Deus Sanguinius.



HQ
- Captain that can use Bikes...
- Chaplain with option of having a Death Mask (-1 Ld to opponents)
* Forgeworld's Veteran Chaplain Dreadnought
- Option for librarians to cast 2 spells per turn (Wings then add attacks on same turn.)
- Either give Furious Charge to Honour Guard or make the "special role" upgrades cheaper.


-Hopefully will happen
-Have this as an option or added as basic equipment.
-Havent seen this yet, but it sounds sweet.
-Probably not going to happen. They should have choice of two spells though.
-Furious Charge should be attached to certin units and fast attak/assault choices if not all BAs imo. Not so sure about the cheaper part though.



Elite
- Fix Assault Terminators
- Upgrade the Furioso so it has the Ironclad's armor value (only that)
- Give Furious Charge to Veteran Assault Marines


-Agreed
-For a small increase in points I dont see that as being a bad thing at all.
-As my statement above.



Troops
- Tactical Marines with options for 2nd Assault Weapon instead of a Heavy Weapon
- Assault Marines with options for 2 Assault Weapons and Furious Charge upgrade


-Or a choice of either 1 AW and 1 HW or 2 AW and 0 HW.
-Agreed and see previous statement about Furious Charge.



Fast Attack
- Scouts as Fast Attack instead of Elites with Land Speeder Storm as transport
- Bike Squadrons with option of 1 Attack Bike


Both are good ideas.



Heavy Support
- Land Raider Reedemer


Wouldn't it be there anyways?

Nice wish/hopes list. Let's see if GW will impliment these is some fasion.

Lion El Jason
13-10-2009, 19:10
I doubt BA will get a fully separate marine or terminator box and to be honest, terminators seem even less likely after the Space Hulk terminators.

I hope the Sgt with the TH&SS from space hulk will be a special character squad upgrade for BA shooty terminator squads though. If nothing else it just lets you use your two SH squads as they come.

I hope they get better sprues than DA did, maybe like BTs maybe, the DA sprues had nice stuff but it was badly organised. Only 3 shoulder pads on the terminator sprue for example and all right side.
But it's a learning experience and they improve each time.

I'm wondering if they'll emphasise the vampire thing again maybe with some fanged bare heads?

I think the main focus will be on making all current metal and hybrid kits into plastics then maybe some new metals for honour guard, vet assault squads (Or maybe they'll just become vanguard...lol) and...erm, whatever GWs new 8 year old designer adds. probably blood angels riding vampire bats or maybe Dante will become a giant or maybe an adversary section with Peter Cushing, my money is on the addition of a vegetarian vampire duck marine because on the sorting algorithm of silliness it's exactly as silly as space wolves riding wolves.

Darthvegeta800
13-10-2009, 19:11
Hadn't even thought about the Primarch connection. ^^ Quite astute!

Marshal2Crusaders
13-10-2009, 19:14
The New Codex will include Brother Edward Culln, Captain of the 8th Company, 'the Angels of Twilight', he is said to have such a beautiful appearance he shines in the sunlight.

Black Hand
13-10-2009, 19:21
I doubt BA will get a fully separate marine or terminator box and to be honest, terminators seem even less likely after the Space Hulk terminators.


I think with the BA Termies from SH it shows that they could potentially make a BA termie box set. They already made 2 so far (DA and SW) so why not a third?



I hope the Sgt with the TH&SS from space hulk will be a special character squad upgrade for BA shooty terminator squads though. If nothing else it just lets you use your two SH squads as they come.


Nice idea on that one.



I hope they get better sprues than DA did, maybe like BTs maybe, the DA sprues had nice stuff but it was badly organised. Only 3 shoulder pads on the terminator sprue for example and all right side.
But it's a learning experience and they improve each time.


Better designed and packed like SW sprues.



I'm wondering if they'll emphasise the vampire thing again maybe with some fanged bare heads?


Nice touch but the enlarged canines was purely a SW iirc. Longevity, Sanguination and the Black Rage is what BAs have.



I think the main focus will be on making all current metal and hybrid kits into plastics then maybe some new metals for honour guard, vet assault squads (Or maybe they'll just become vanguard...lol) and...erm, whatever GWs new 8 year old designer adds. probably blood angels riding vampire bats or maybe Dante will become a giant or maybe an adversary section with Peter Cushing, my money is on the addition of a vegetarian vampire duck marine because on the sorting algorithm of silliness it's exactly as silly as space wolves riding wolves.


We can only hope for all plastic, but even as far as GW have come I doubt it will happen. But I do like the Count Duckula idea. I'm all for it.

Prodigalson
13-10-2009, 19:24
I'm going to have to defend the DA sprue in general. There are some problems with it, but the guys in robes are just... wonderful. It's to bad they just didn't steal the DA should pads from forgeworld and stick them on the sprue. They effectively reinvented a square wheel by having the ones they did on the DA sprue for the terminators.

Sadly, it's a problem that is due to advanced in technology. Look at the space wolf sprue, they have what... five terminators on there? How nice would give Deathwing terminators in robes been... yeaaa... phat.

Let's see... you will probably get some vampire heads... baal predator upgrade, left handed P-fist for furioso, a bunch of BA shoulder pads, some chest pieces and bolters and what not. I would say some vampirism influenced pwoer armor, banner poles, that sort of thing.

Ohhh, and I had this thought. What if some of the characters aren't from the BA codex? For instance what if you had a Lamentors character that changed the trait type thing taht BA's get? Or some Fleshtearer ability that made it go insane. You could use them as BA characters for counts as, but it would be nice to see some of the other chapters as well.

Also... is Mephiston really the most powerful psyker? He's going going to be a beast in hth to begin with. If he is like Tigurious except with a better profile, he will be so expensive that no one will use him. The 200+ point characters are great and all... but it's the 100-200 pt characters that people are seeing these days, as their the most helpful in combat. Who cares if you can tell someone that 'my character can beat up your character' the question is is he worth using, is he helpful. If he is, he's great, if he's not... then he's not.

Black Hand
13-10-2009, 19:32
Also... is Mephiston really the most powerful psyker? He's going going to be a beast in hth to begin with. If he is like Tigurious except with a better profile, he will be so expensive that no one will use him. The 200+ point characters are great and all... but it's the 100-200 pt characters that people are seeing these days, as their the most helpful in combat. Who cares if you can tell someone that 'my character can beat up your character' the question is is he worth using, is he helpful. If he is, he's great, if he's not... then he's not.

Mephiston isn't the most powerful Psyker in existence. But he one onf the most powerful. IIRC he gained immense power after overcoming the Black Rage. Being burried for 7 days/nights at Armageddon with the balck rage will do that I guess. I think the it goes The Emperor, Tigurius, then Mephiston. But I could be wrong.

As for the usefull part, that's up to the player and his/her style. But I do like bringing him to the table once in a while.

my_name_is_tudor
13-10-2009, 20:13
Rather than Assault Marines as troops I'd prefer to see Tactical squads given the option to take chainswords. These mounted in Rhinos is a lot closer to the fluff I reckon.

Personally I'd expect metal Death Company models over plastics to make them more interesting pose wise, combined with a rerelease of the DC shoulder pads for converting up more.

As for other releases? My guess is plastic Blood Angels Pack, all-plastic Baal Predator and then metal Death Company, Honour Guard and characters obviously.

Maybe tied in to a metal vanilla Honour Guard squad sans Jump Packs? Vanguard Veterans don't look right representing Artificer Armour..

Argastes
13-10-2009, 20:14
Why not? Fluff is frequently retconned. And people like the idea.
So why not?

Well, I guess if this is your only criteria for whether or not to do something, there's no arguing with that.

Some people like the idea, some people don't. Let's not pretend that the Official 40K Wargaming Community Consensus is "Blood Angels should become the all-jump-pack chapter". I don't like the idea, it clashes with the fluff, so I don't want to see it. If you do like the idea, and think that the fluff should be changed to accommodate it, good for you.

On a semi-related note, I really really hope we don't see Vampire heads. Assault Marines as troops would be bad enough, turning BAs into the "vampire chapter" would be terrible. The vampiric aspect of their curse is supposed to be their deepest secret, hinted at only in the darkest rumors. Now people want to see it literally written on their faces? Shameful.


Rather than Assault Marines as troops I'd prefer to see Tactical squads given the option to take chainswords. These mounted in Rhinos is a lot closer to the fluff I reckon.

This would make much more sense.

rabblerouser
13-10-2009, 20:25
Tycho coming back as a dreadnought.... that would be SO awesome



On a semi-related note, I really really hope we don't see Vampire heads. Assault Marines as troops would be bad enough, turning BAs into the "vampire chapter" would be terrible. The vampiric aspect of their curse is supposed to be their deepest secret, hinted at only in the darkest rumors. Now people want to see it literally written on their faces? Shameful.

Agreed. I wouldn't want to see a repeat of space wolves with wolf heads, wolf markings, swinging wolf axes, wearing wolf cloaks, riding giant wolves to battle and howling at the moon. That's precisely why I hate that chapter. That, and the stupid hair on some models.

ps: sorry i should have combined those :S

twistinthunder
13-10-2009, 20:30
The New Codex will include Brother Edward Culln, Captain of the 8th Company, 'the Angels of Twilight', he is said to have such a beautiful appearance he shines in the sunlight.

this.. is.. best.. ever.

seriously nothings made me laugh so hard in a long time.

@rabble: are you being serious cause sound like you being sarcastic if your being serious then you wierd. lol kidding.

twistinthunder
13-10-2009, 20:35
Well, I guess if this is your only criteria for whether or not to do something, there's no arguing with that.

Some people like the idea, some people don't. Let's not pretend that the Official 40K Wargaming Community Consensus is "Blood Angels should become the all-jump-pack chapter". I don't like the idea, it clashes with the fluff, so I don't want to see it. If you do like the idea, and think that the fluff should be changed to accommodate it, good for you.

On a semi-related note, I really really hope we don't see Vampire heads. Assault Marines as troops would be bad enough, turning BAs into the "vampire chapter" would be terrible. The vampiric aspect of their curse is supposed to be their deepest secret, hinted at only in the darkest rumors. Now people want to see it literally written on their faces? Shameful.


This would make much more sense.

heres something: because they already are! i mean seriously i doubt they'd drastically change the current (updated .pdf file) troops options.

Argastes
13-10-2009, 20:46
heres something: because they already are! i mean seriously i doubt they'd drastically change the current (updated .pdf file) troops options.

Well, then I'd have to say your doubt might be misplaced, because when they made the .pdf codex, they did exactly that; they "drastically" changed the then-current troops options. In the previous BA dex, Assault Squads were FA choices and scouts were troops. So obviously GW is not averse to moving BA units around in the FOC. I'm hoping they switch them back to the way they were before the .pdf codex.

wilsongrahams
13-10-2009, 20:49
I'd love to see some metal models for Dante's honour guard, all in nice shining gold artificer armour sculpted to their greek styled bodies...

WokeUpDead
13-10-2009, 20:51
well, I like my blood angels of old..

but the cynic in me (well, after seeing the wolf-on-wolf, it doesn't have to be the cynic, just normal observation) predicts something like the 'ÜberVampireOfDeath'-from Underworld2 (oh, was that a horrible and lame movie) - only in termi-armour, with giant batlike wings, flying of course. or maybe tycho surfing a giant bat, or a mobile blood-bank vehicle.. something like that.
subtlety is in dire shortage these days at GWHQ. ;)

Ominous Anonymous
13-10-2009, 20:51
Tycho isn't going anywhere. He was one of the first Blood Angel special characters, he's part of not only the fluff history of 40k but also the history of the game itself. Getting rid of him would be like getting rid of Yarrick.

EDIT: I don't see RAS being removed as Troops, either.

wilsongrahams
13-10-2009, 20:54
They killed Eldrad Ulthran off. And Captain Gideon of Ravenwing. Wouldn't be the first time.
And I've not that long repainted my Tycho too - he can always become a reserve company captain maybe...

rabblerouser
13-10-2009, 20:58
Tycho isn't going anywhere. He was one of the first Blood Angel special characters, he's part of not only the fluff history of 40k but also the history of the game itself. Getting rid of him would be like getting rid of Yarrick.

EDIT: I don't see RAS being removed as Troops, either.

He's already dead. He succumbed to black rage, killed a bunch of orks, and eventually died himself.

Jackmojo
13-10-2009, 21:32
Be nice to see both Scouts and Assault Marines as troops (never quite understood why marines seem to often get stuck with only two troop choices), this will allow players who preferred any of the previous versions of the codex to field the army they like.

Plus always in favour of more options.

On that note it might be nice to have some characters from the successor chapters (perhaps with their own Blood Angel version of Chapter Tactics) for some expanded fluff.

Jack

unclejimbo827
13-10-2009, 21:51
The New Codex will include Brother Edward Culln, Captain of the 8th Company, 'the Angels of Twilight', he is said to have such a beautiful appearance he shines in the sunlight.

****. You. Don't even joke about that. That's even worse than Marines On Wolves (tm)

rabblerouser
13-10-2009, 22:27
The New Codex will include Brother Edward Culln, Captain of the 8th Company, 'the Angels of Twilight', he is said to have such a beautiful appearance he shines in the sunlight.

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Can i steal that for my signature? hahahaha

Marshal2Crusaders
13-10-2009, 22:56
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

Can i steal that for my signature? hahahaha

Feel free lol

Darthvegeta800
13-10-2009, 23:00
heres something: because they already are! i mean seriously i doubt they'd drastically change the current (updated .pdf file) troops options.

Yes. I currently associate Assault Marines with Blood Angels.
It's a nifty rule to differentiate them from the other chapters.

The Dude
13-10-2009, 23:17
How did the Blood Angels, an army due for release after the Tyranids, get to keep an active rumore thread going that's full of nothing but speculation, but the Tyranid one has been shut down 987 times?

This is being addressed now.

Please be patient.

cthorpe
13-10-2009, 23:18
No.. BA are not an all assault army and never should be..

Battle companies follow STANDARD marine codex patterns of 6 tactical, 2 assault and 2 devastator Squads..

There is of course the reserve assault companies.. but these are also found in codex chapters..

The only difference is in the the First company which is composed of ALL veteran Assault Marines..

This is what should be reflected in the new codex.. which is what I'm looking forward too.. The BA's noble struggle to maintain a STANDARD chapter against all the odds, including fighting the effects of their own geneseed..

Best wishes,

Carl

Ominous Anonymous
13-10-2009, 23:53
He's already dead. He succumbed to black rage, killed a bunch of orks, and eventually died himself.

Eldrad Ulthruan.


No.. BA are not an all assault army and never should be..

What?

Objectively wrong on the first part and subjectively wrong on the second (but that's my opinion).

The Blood Angels aren't Ultramarines for comparison's sake, they are Codex-adherent but not to the extent that you believe. Also, they have always been an assault army since the Great Crusade and even had a friendly rivalry with the World Eaters. Would you say that the World Eaters are also 'not an assault (legion)'?

The Dude
14-10-2009, 00:00
The Blood Angels aren't Ultramarines for comparison's sake, they are Codex-adherent but not to the extent that you believe. Also, they have always been an assault army since the Great Crusade and even had a friendly rivalry with the World Eaters. Would you say that the World Eaters are also 'not an assault (legion)'?

Being an Assault Army, doesn't require Assault Marines. You can Assault quite effectively with a Bolter and Bolt Pistol.

my_name_is_tudor
14-10-2009, 00:02
Objectively wrong on the first part and subjectively wrong on the second (but that's my opinion).

The Blood Angels aren't Ultramarines for comparison's sake, they are Codex-adherent but not to the extent that you believe. Also, they have always been an assault army since the Great Crusade and even had a friendly rivalry with the World Eaters. Would you say that the World Eaters are also 'not an assault (legion)'?

Fella said that they're not an ALL assault army. Which is true. Assault Marines as Troops tends to indicate otherwise. Which is bad.

They lean heavily towards assault tactics, hence Jump Pack Honour Guard, super charged Rhinos, jump packs for ALL Vanguard Vets and my suggestion of Bolt Pistol/CCW for Tacticals. Assault Marines as troops suggests a standard Blood Angels Battle Company could field six ten-man Assault Squads. It can't.

PS. Do Worldeaters get Raptors as Troops? (Genuine question, can't remember..)

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 00:17
Fella said that they're not an ALL assault army. Which is true.

I'm sure he was making the distinction as well as you are.


Assault Marines as Troops tends to indicate otherwise. Which is bad.

Why is that bad, though? From a fluff perspective there could be any number of reasons why they would have more Assault troops. Maybe the Blood Angels carry extra Jump Packs and the Tactical squads are trained to use them in any event, or maybe rather than just a single company a battleforce has been assembled under a Commander who uses more Assault troops from the reserve companies.

From a gaming perspective it also serves to distinguish Blood Angels from other marines by giving them something that they cannot. Not to mention I love Assault Squads and love fielding an entire army of them. :)


PS. Do Worldeaters get Raptors as Troops? (Genuine question, can't remember..)

No idea on what the old codex used to say, but the current one doesn't.


Being an Assault Army, doesn't require Assault Marines. You can Assault quite effectively with a Bolter and Bolt Pistol.

Why would you ever take Assault Marines, then?

And lastly in an attempt to salvage what has been a very off-topic post, can someone confirm that GD Italy is this weekend?

Supreme Archon Orlok
14-10-2009, 00:28
Hi I'm a Dark Eldar player and I have something to say....

Good for you Blood Angels players (I'm not being sarcastic),weren't expecting that were you?
Each codex that is released brings us closer to the xenos rereleasing.

Be optimistic and patient.

And in the the meantime I have Beasts of Chaos in Fantasy to look forward too!!!!

YAY!!!!

Scorcher505
14-10-2009, 00:32
And lastly in an attempt to salvage what has been a very off-topic post, can someone confirm that GD Italy is this weekend?

It is this Sunday. Got to the Italian GW site and it says so

ctsteel
14-10-2009, 00:57
The re-release of the Blood Angels and possibly Dark Angels as separate books (the DA idea wasn't outright refuted, Harry and Brimstone only said it wasn't a combined AoD codex and that BA is standalone), gives me personally a much more solid reason for why they've decided to release the Fortress of Redemption kit end of this year.

Releasing a big kit that was very 'angel'ised and targeted to a specific chapter is of course possible (given that they are doing just that) but it seemed odd to me to restrict the potential buying audience so much - I'm sure there are many marine players who don't use that imagery for their chapters. But winged angels would be a Blood Angel theme too I imagine what with Sanguinius looking as he did, so this broadens the audience, and will tie in nicely with the codex/new model release a couple of months later. Especially if both are re-released at similar time.

Joewrightgm
14-10-2009, 00:59
I have never played Blood Angels, but I really like their back ground story, and as light as the White Dwarf list is, I think it definitely give you a sense that you are playing a Blood Angels army.

The Dude
14-10-2009, 01:02
Why would you ever take Assault Marines, then?

Because you can assault better with Assault Marines. ;)

The point is the Blood Angels may favour close assault, but that doesn't mean they have more Assault Marines. They follow the Codex for their Chapter structure, meaning they have the same number of Assault Marines as the Ultramarines do.

If you want to charge the enemy and rip his head off, you'll do that regardless of what you're wielding. Therefore, if the Codex Astartes says you will be a Tactical Marine with a Bolter and Bolt Pistol, you will use those tools as best you can in an assault. If you and your brothers are good at close combat, that will be particularly evident if you’re not ideally equipped for it.

cthorpe's point is a valid one. The Blood Angels do not like their curse. They don't want to devolve into raving madmen. They do not embrace the Black Rage, and fight against its influence at every turn. There is only one Blood Angel who has ever recovered from it, so succumbing is a death sentence. Maintaining a Codex structure and forcing yourself to fight at arms length is the prefect way of keeping the Rage down. Dishing out the Jump Packs like they’re going out of style is the quickest way to lose half the Chapter.

If GW wants to retain the Blood Angels ability to take Assault Marines as Troops, I hope it becomes linked to Dante.

Brother Captain Alec
14-10-2009, 01:04
I can see assault marines staying as troops chocies for they would be emmulating their primarch just like all other chapters do so I really don't understand why a lot of you are saying that it isn't part of the fluff.

The Dude
14-10-2009, 01:08
I can see assault marines staying as troops chocies for they would be emmulating their primarch just like all other chapters do so I really don't understand why a lot of you are saying that it isn't part of the fluff.

It's never been part of their fluff. Even the fluff that accompanied the PDF didn't say that had more Assault Marines.

Emulating the Primarch is one thing, but putting your Chapter in danger is another entirely. There are plenty of other ways to emulate the Primarch other than flying.

Ivellis
14-10-2009, 01:08
I can see assault marines staying as troops chocies for they would be emmulating their primarch just like all other chapters do so I really don't understand why a lot of you are saying that it isn't part of the fluff.

This is how I see it, they're not raving madmen charging in psychotically. They're taking after their Primarch by taking to the skies. Blood Angels are supposed to be more in tune with their primarch than any other chapter so why wouldn't they want to fly?

Zanzibarthefirst
14-10-2009, 01:12
If GW wants to retain the Blood Angels ability to take Assault Marines as Troops, I hope it becomes linked to Dante.

THats not a bad idea. If Grimnar allows Wolf Guard to count as troops then Dante could allow assault marines to count as troops.

Brother Captain Alec
14-10-2009, 01:24
Yes I agree that it is dangerous but BA want to get into combat, they are drawn to kill their opponent face to face just because there is a chance that they will succomb to the black rage doesn't mean that they will. They train to supress the Black rage and would able to kill their opponent savagely but still regain their cool with help from their training.

Edit

I do see The Dude's and everyone else's views that BA shouldn't have assault marines as troop choices and it wouldn't bother me one way or another but I just want to say my view and I am also keeping in mind that if BA being geared toward assault aren't given assault marines as troop choices then what do the get?

Frep
14-10-2009, 01:41
I'm excited for new blood angels, I just hope some of the silly mistakes/oversights of the old codex aren't repeated. I found giving death company rending but dropping the ability to take special close combat weapons kind of odd, I know maybe you don't want to give the raving nutters the best gear. But GWs explanation for the change just felt silly, "to those of you death company models armed with special weapons may feel disappointed but rending makes up for it" Seems kind of lazy for a WYSIWYG game

The Dude
14-10-2009, 01:47
I could see Death Company returning to their original incarnation which was essentially an Uber Assault Squad. Give them options for Power Weapons, Power Fists and maybe the occasional Plasma Pistol, and they'll be sweet as.

Ideally I would like to see them as a Retinue option for Chaplains, or at least have Chaplains (possibly lower level ones) as a Squad Upgrade option for them.

Much better than having them forced down our throats.

prose.
14-10-2009, 01:48
I think it's important to remember that the Force Organization Chart, like all the other rules in 40k, is an abstraction. Yes you can take a proper company (6 tactical, 2 assault, 2 devastator) using the FOC and doubtless it was designed around space marines so that you could do exactly that. Nevertheless, all that 'troops' really means in 5th Edition is that they can hold objectives. Training your forward assault troops to hold objectives until reserve forces come in makes sense.

Although from the perspective of representing fluff in the rules, all Space Marines should probably be scoring so whatever...

Who really cares anyway? One codex or another had to make assault marines Troops so GW could sell more assault marine kits. If you don't think it's fluffy don't use 'em. Tactical marines are probably better anyway but it's nice to have the option there if you want it.

Brother Weasel
14-10-2009, 01:54
Having assault marines as a troop choice doesn't mean that they have more, just use them more. (not arguing if they should or shouldn't be in the troop FOC)

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 01:54
Who really cares anyway? One codex or another had to make assault marines Troops so GW could sell more assault marine kits. If you don't think it's fluffy don't use 'em. Tactical marines are probably better anyway but it's nice to have the option there if you want it.

This, really. Sure, if we wanted to adhere to the fluff as much as possible we'd be using Movie Marine rules. If you think 6 Assault Squads (though honestly you don't even see 6 Tactical squads in most lists) is too much for a single Company, then just fine a fluffy reason to support it, like the Battleforce idea I gave earlier.

I really hope they don't tie Assault Squads as troops to Dante. A generic HQ unit with a jump pack? Sure, and it's fluffy. Dante's expensive enough as it is and they're likely to give him Eternal Warrior, making him even more expensive...:(

Brother Captain Alec
14-10-2009, 01:58
I like the way the death company are now, they gain enough power from the memories of Sanguinius that they can litterally rip apart their enemies hence rending. Yes this means that they can't take out vehicles but it is more fluff and I am always more for fluff its why I started playing this game in the first place.

Frep
14-10-2009, 02:22
Oh the fluff of the death company having rending wasn't what bothered me it was the way GW invalidated a bunch of peoples models and then gave them the excuse that rending made up for it. Invalidating models isn't such a big deal but then telling people that because there are nice shiny rules WYSIWYG is thrown out the window for those same models, annoys the **** outta me

Kirasu
14-10-2009, 02:37
Oh the fluff of the death company having rending wasn't what bothered me it was the way GW invalidated a bunch of peoples models and then gave them the excuse that rending made up for it. Invalidating models isn't such a big deal but then telling people that because there are nice shiny rules WYSIWYG is thrown out the window for those same models, annoys the **** outta me


What? They arent invalidated. By your own logic GW gave an "excuse" thus not invalidating them

They have rending because the models have an assortment of power weapons, fists etc.. Every configuration is VALID .. how does that hurt WYSIWYG?

The Dude
14-10-2009, 02:56
What? They arent invalidated. By your own logic GW gave an "excuse" thus not invalidating them

They have rending because the models have an assortment of power weapons, fists etc.. Every configuration is VALID .. how does that hurt WYSIWYG?

Because it means 2 different models in the army can wield the exact same weapon with 2 different rules. People see a Power Fist and expect them to strike at I1, not at I5. By definition, I am not getting what I see ;)

What we may see is something like Thunderwolves, where Death Company have Rending standard, can take additional Special Close Combat Weapons, but the effects don't stack.

Frep
14-10-2009, 02:56
Becaise this marine with red armour and a powerfist is strength 8, but this one in black with red crosses is strength four rending. Though you are right invalidating was a poor word choice on my part

EDIT: Ninja'd by the Dude

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 03:23
Agreeing with Dude on how they'll handle having Rending and special weapons in the same squad, it seems like the most rational way to do it.

CKO
14-10-2009, 03:38
I will be trying on power armor for the first time if Blood Angels get a new codex, sad I thought such a thing would never happen.

HsojVvad
14-10-2009, 04:10
Ok, so GD Italy is coming this Sunday. I wouldn't expect any rumours for BA at GD this Sunday. Tyranids, yes, we can hear rumours about but not BA, or at least Officially from GW.

Since BA release is more than 3 months away I guess GW will not be releasing anything officially, but maybe they will leak some stuff "unofficially" to get Marnie players excited for it, but not "officially" Of course I can be wrong, but I am just going by the new pattern that GW does of not releasing anything officially till 3 months before release.

What am I trying to say? Don't get too excited for rumours being released and then pissed, if nothing is officially said. Tyranids, Yes, BA no. That is what I think.

Frgt/10
14-10-2009, 04:12
one thing i would really like to see is the option for scout bikers...i cant understand why they were left out of the WD list
also; having dante make assault squads troops is a brilliant idea, and certainly better than having them as troops as standard. Having a minor chaplain as an upgrade to the DC would also be cool.
what about the sanguinary high priest? anyone see them returning as a hq choice again? or will they just stick to corbulo...similarly a chaplain upgrade for a dreadnought would also be interesting...

The Dude
14-10-2009, 04:13
what about the sanguinary high priest? anyone see them returning as a hq choice again? or will they just stick to corbulo

There is only one Sanguinary High Priest, so I see them sticking with just Corbulo.

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 04:23
Ok, so GD Italy is coming this Sunday. I wouldn't expect any rumours for BA at GD this Sunday. Tyranids, yes, we can hear rumours about but not BA, or at least Officially from GW.

Since BA release is more than 3 months away I guess GW will not be releasing anything officially, but maybe they will leak some stuff "unofficially" to get Marnie players excited for it, but not "officially" Of course I can be wrong, but I am just going by the new pattern that GW does of not releasing anything officially till 3 months before release.

What am I trying to say? Don't get too excited for rumours being released and then pissed, if nothing is officially said. Tyranids, Yes, BA no. That is what I think.

Honestly I thought GDUK was supposed to be all about the Space Wolves, and out of nowhere we had a Tyranid codex cover and release date dropped on us. I agree that we shouldn't expect anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if something comes from it.


There is only one Sanguinary High Priest, so I see them sticking with just Corbulo.

They could still bring back Sanguinary Priests as an HQ unit.

The Dude
14-10-2009, 04:27
They could still bring back Sanguinary Priests as an HQ unit.

The regular Sanguinary Priest was never an HQ choice. I think the generic SHP was there for Successor Chapters before the idea of Counting the Named Characters as the successor equivalent was the norm.

I could handle maybe Veteran squads having the option for Sanguinary Priests to have a slightly higher number of them, but there should really only be one HQ level Sanguinary Priest.

havik110
14-10-2009, 04:32
judging from my observation...that the dude has posted more in this thread than any other rumor thread ever (that ive paid attention to) me thinks he likes the BA...

I still think daunte needs Eternal warrior...a lucky melta or laz cannon should not kill the oldest marine not in a dread...

Jackmojo
14-10-2009, 04:40
The regular Sanguinary Priest was never an HQ choice. I think the generic SHP was there for Successor Chapters before the idea of Counting the Named Characters as the successor equivalent was the norm.

I could handle maybe Veteran squads having the option for Sanguinary Priests to have a slightly higher number of them, but there should really only be one HQ level Sanguinary Priest.

Given how much they down powered support HQs, a 2 wound chaplain equivalent is hardly beyond the pale...but then I'm always in favour of more HQ (and troop) choices since you're required to take them :)

Jack.

P.S. I was looking at the BA mini dex the other day...boy would I love a 30 point super cheap HQ again :)

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 04:42
The regular Sanguinary Priest was never an HQ choice. I think the generic SHP was there for Successor Chapters before the idea of Counting the Named Characters as the successor equivalent was the norm.

I could handle maybe Veteran squads having the option for Sanguinary Priests to have a slightly higher number of them, but there should really only be one HQ level Sanguinary Priest.

3rd Edition still has SHP as an HQ choice, even Corbulo was just considered the best of them.


I still think daunte needs Eternal warrior...a lucky melta or laz cannon should not kill the oldest marine not in a dread...

I agree, though technically I think Sergeant Cleutin is the oldest Space Marine in the Blood Angels, as he's still alive and was Dante's scout squad sergeant.

The Dude
14-10-2009, 04:59
judging from my observation...that the dude has posted more in this thread than any other rumor thread ever (that ive paid attention to) me thinks he likes the BA...

We all have a soft spot for our first army ;)


3rd Edition still has SHP as an HQ choice, even Corbulo was just considered the best of them.

3rd edition was the only Dex to have generic SHPs. It is, IMO, an anomaly.

Sgt John Keel
14-10-2009, 05:30
The point is the Blood Angels may favour close assault, but that doesn't mean they have more Assault Marines. They follow the Codex for their Chapter structure, meaning they have the same number of Assault Marines as the Ultramarines do.

I'm not exactly sure how Vanguard/Sternguard veterans fit the Codex Astartes, but historically the Blood Angels First Company were exclusively equipped with either jump packs or TDA in contrast to other chapters' tactical veterans. This increases the potential assault marine contingent with a hundred marines, or over 50% more compared to other chapters. One might point out that this is because of a widespread personal preference for close combat, not chapter doctrine.


There is only one Sanguinary High Priest, so I see them sticking with just Corbulo.

Do you have a source for this? The 3rd edition codex mentions that the Blood Angel Sanguinary Priests are ruled over by Sanguinary High Priests, in plural form. (Pages 5 and 17)

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 06:12
3rd edition was the only Dex to have generic SHPs. It is, IMO, an anomaly.

Too bad that's, just...like...your opinion, man.

That and Blood Angels not being an assault-oriented (though Codex-adherent) Chapter. :wtf:

The Dude
14-10-2009, 06:15
I'm not exactly sure how Vanguard/Sternguard veterans fit the Codex Astartes, but historically the Blood Angels First Company were exclusively equipped with either jump packs or TDA in contrast to other chapters' tactical veterans. This increases the potential assault marine contingent with a hundred marines, or over 50% more compared to other chapters. One might point out that this is because of a widespread personal preference for close combat, not chapter doctrine.

Veteran Assault Squads are not Assault Squads. They are separate Codex entries, which is why I specifically said Assault Marines, not Jump Packs. ;)

Yes, Blood Angels have Veteran Assault Marines, but thay are Elite choices, whereas Assault Marines are currently Troops Choices. IMO, simply having Veteran Assault Marines indicated the Blood Angels predeliction for close combat without making regular Assault Marines Troops. If it is simply meant to be a matter of being a scoring unit, it's easy enough to add a special rule saying one or the other is a Scoring Unit.

The basic unit of Blood Angels armies should be the Tactical Squad.


Do you have a source for this? The 3rd edition codex mentions that the Blood Angel Sanguinary Priests are ruled over by Sanguinary High Priests, in plural form. (Pages 5 and 17)

Possibly the 3rd edition Codex justifying the existance of generic SHPs, possibly it means multiple SHPs through the ages (I'll check when I get home). Now my copy of AoD was stolen years ago, so I can't be sure, but I'm fairly certain Corbulo was the only SHP. There certainly wasn't a generic entry.

To my way of thinking, you can only have one "High" Priest, can't you?


That and Blood Angels not being an assault-oriented (though Codex-adherent) Chapter. :wtf:

I never said the Blood Angels weren't Assault Oriented (although I would prefer the term close combat inclined), just that you don't need a butt-load of Assault Marines to represent that. You can have a preference for Close Combat without strapping a rocket to your back and swinging a chainsaw around.

Jon_Irenicus
14-10-2009, 06:30
If memory serves me right, there was only Corbulo as SHP. Anyway, as a old BA fan (I also owned the AoD codex), the current status doesn't put me off playing BA, but I must confess I frown upon the direction they started taking with them since 3rd edition.

The older stories were well made enough that you had an idea of what was going on, without entering the whole "Space Vampire" thingie - noble yet tragic, they don't need big vampire fangs. Elegant, and codex astartes abiding. In my humble opinion, poor writing skills and lack of imagination dilluted the BA imagery and made it so obvious it screams at you.

Actually it's frustrating that I can't word it, but it's like comparing the Interview with a Vampire to a Van Hellsing.

P.S. I don't even want to get started on Assault Squads as troops. I pretend they're only there for Flesh Tearers or something.

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 06:53
If this comes across as insensitive and offensive then I apologize in advance, but:

Dude, what you want to play is not Codex: Blood Angels, but Codex: Space Marines. If you find that GW has changed your first army beyond recognition then I argue it's because they cannot simply have a carbon copy of one codex with a few extra units thrown in. At some point they have to give Blood Angels that flair, that unique characteristic that makes you say "I want to play these guys over the others." If for you that only comes down to fluff (or your interpretation of it for that matter) then you are no different from an Ultramarines or Avenging Sons or Iron Snakes player.

To deprive the codex of that would only serve to justify getting rid of the codex in return for a paragraph in the next catch-all Space Marines codex.

twistinthunder
14-10-2009, 07:08
No.. BA are not an all assault army and never should be..

Battle companies follow STANDARD marine codex patterns of 6 tactical, 2 assault and 2 devastator Squads..

Carl



yes but the reason gw do codexes for chapters like space wolves , black templars and BLOOD ANGELS is BECAUSE they AREN'T a CODEX CHAPTER.

The Dude
14-10-2009, 07:13
If this comes across as insensitive and offensive then I apologize in advance, but:

I always find it amusing when people recognise something they are saying may cause offence, but say it anyway ;)

Might I suggest that what you want to play isn't Codex Blood Angels, it's Codex Chaos Space Marines? ;)

To be honest, a bunch of special Characters and unique units are all it would take. It's unfortunate that Vanguard were included in Codex Space Marines, but I don't see that as a reason to radically alter how the Blood Angels are organised.

There are many other ways to encourage a close assault force without making Assault Squads Troops. All of the unique Blood Angels units are close quarters units. The Baal Predator, the Furioso Dread, The Death Company, Honour Guard and Vet Assault Units. Not to mention the Named Characters are all close assault guys. Throw in some more awesome Combat enhancing Psychic Powers and you're squared away.

I'm not saying there should be no ability to take Assault Marines as Troops. That's a cool divergant list. Just do what should have been done in the first place and tie it to a Special Character.

wilsongrahams
14-10-2009, 07:51
All this mention of sanguinary high priests needs to refer back to when blood angels had apothecaries, and sanguinary priests, and they were different. Corbulo was Sanguinary high priest - so the top priest. The difference between an apothecary and a sanguinary priest is that the priests have sanguinius's blood in their veins and it is there blood that is drunk as part of insanguination etc.

Therefore, if the term apothecary is to be dropped in favour of sanguinary priest, you should then count sanuinary priests as sanguinary high priests and allow more than one, but corbulo is still considered the most senior of them - they are a collection with no superior but that does not stop superiority.

I'd like a cheaper HQ again, just for more options for smaller games and extra characters. I'd also like Death Company to be an optional unit not already paid for so I can send my tormented souls off to the tower of Amareo if I wish an all red force.

I also believe that tactical squads should be prevalent, but assault squads do make up the majority of the front line assault force in fluff, so maybe allow one assault squad per tactical squad to count as troops? On the FOC I mean, not as a scoring unit, to make everyone happy.

For Sanguinius!

vahouth
14-10-2009, 08:13
Ok, here's a suggestion:

A force of BA leaded by Captain with jump packs, counts Assault Marines as troops.
A force of BA leaded by Dante, counts Veteran Assault Marines as troops.;)

Alfonzo
14-10-2009, 08:32
I'm fairly certain BA could take Assault Squads as troops in the basic list in the pre-codex 3e core.

The Dude
14-10-2009, 08:49
I'm fairly certain BA could take Assault Squads as troops in the basic list in the pre-codex 3e core.

Indeed they could (funny, I'd never read that page :p), but my reading of that paragraph is that they're meant to represent the Death Company, rather than actual Assault Squads, and that the bit about giving Vets JPs is meant to represent the extra Assault Troops.

Either way, I'm not enamoured of it, and would prefer it to change.

shabbadoo
14-10-2009, 10:48
Veterans and Honour Guard with jump packs is enough to represent an Assault orientation for Blood Angels, and is the only different between them and a standard codex chapter organization anyways. They can take an Honour Guard Squad with jump packs as part of an HQ choice, 3 Veteran Assault Squads as ELITES choices, and 3 Assault Squads as FAST ATTACK choices, and all in one FOC. No other Space Marine army can do that(heck, maybe Space Wolves can do that too; I'm not sure :p), yet that is still not enough to represent a "tendency" to take Assault units?

Well, I'll give you one more. Seeing that Death Company are a completely ad hoc unit(yes, they are), they ought to count as ELITES for scenario purposes, but take up no slot on the FOC. That would add up to a possible total of *eight* jump pack-equipped units in single FOC. How would that work for you? Even without that, the capability to field *seven* units of flying death in single FOC still isn't enough?

Sons of Sanguinius
14-10-2009, 10:56
Veterans and Honour Guard with jump packs is enough to represent an Assault orientation for Blood Angels, and is the only different between them and a standard codex chapter organization anyways. They can take an Honour Guard Squad with jump packs as part of an HQ choice, 3 Veteran Assault Squads as ELITES choices, and 3 Assault Squads as FAST ATTACK choices, and all in one FOC. No other Space Marine army can do that(heck, maybe Space Wolves can do that too; I'm not sure :p), yet that is still not enough to represent a "tendency" to take Assault units?

Well, I'll give you one more. Seeing that Death Company are a completely ad hoc unit(yes, they are), they ought to count as ELITES for scenario purposes, but take up no slot on the FOC. That would add up to a possible total of *eight* jump pack-equipped units in single FOC. How would that work for you? Even without that, the capability to field *seven* units of flying death in single FOC still isn't enough?
FYI, Assault Squads are currently a troops choice and NOT a Fast Attack choice (per the PDF-dex). This means they can currently have TWELVE Jump Pack-equipped squads in one army list.

aka_mythos
14-10-2009, 11:13
I think codex Space Marines really stole a bit of every non-codex marine chapters thunder, but this is probably why SW were done in a characteful way. GW effectively diluted the superficial differences between the codex and non-codex chapters, now they have to do more with the new books or they're pointless.

cochise
14-10-2009, 11:18
Jump Packs as troops make sense ruleswise. Other codecies have other options to adjust their FOC. And until now BA are the only ones (SW aside...) able to field them.
It may not make sense fluffwise, but is a nice way to differentiate them from other codecies ruleswise.
At the end what you see on the table is what you identify as the army, and fluff can be adjusted around it. 5th edition brought the "troops only" scoring thing and it is affecting every codex published after it.
I doubt that anyone complained that much about RAS becoming troops in 4th edition. People would still minimize troop choices and take veterans as, as they stand now, are a far superior choice.
Nevertheless, I guess having a character as a requirement to fielding them would be ok for everyone. But I really don´t like the idea of mandatory HQ options. Speceially with BA, who already need a SC to take care of the DC.
It makes making lists a boring and automatic process.

shabbadoo
14-10-2009, 11:22
FYI, Assault Squads are currently a troops choice and NOT a Fast Attack choice (per the PDF-dex). This means they can currently have TWELVE Jump Pack-equipped squads in one army list.

Yes, I know, which is of course irrelevant to the point I am making. :eyebrows:

Souleater
14-10-2009, 11:27
I think GW do need to make BA more characterful if they are to justify them having their own dex.

Otherwise...they should've dumped them in with the Vanilla's.

The 'desire to get to grips with the enemy' is a bit odd, IMO. BA want to get there fast but arent' tooling up for it. I would have thought that giving your Tac guys a combat knife each and doubling their CC prowess would make sense for guys eager to get up close and personal. Obviously BA have very stingy quartermasters.

Still, I hope that BA get figures similar to the SH ones (yeah, I know, probably wont' be as good since they will be multipart, but I can dream)

wilsongrahams
14-10-2009, 11:46
Hmmm, not sure what to make of assault marines.

I currently have one ten man squad of the death company painted as assault marines without jump packs (the sarg is my avatar).
I had ten of the old metal guys that have been stripped of paint and need rebuilding.
I had ten plastic assault marines, hated them and sold them.
If all I get offered is parts to the plastic men and nothing much more I think I will cry.

Sons of Sanguinius
14-10-2009, 11:56
I think Ominous Anonymous' point sums up the existence of Codex: Blood Angels quite well. @ Ominous Anonymous - You're opinions on this are almost mine word for word haha. :D

@ The Dude: I know you've defended Blood Angels as being organized index astartes fluff-wise many times on many different threads. Your opinion is that Blood Angels need Tactical Squads to be their base Troops FOC unit. That's great (and on a side note, they DO have Tac marines as troops also), but your opinion is contrary to Blood Angels codexes since 2nd Edition RULES-WISE.

Fluff-wise, you're absolutely correct about their organization (excluding that their vet company in fact prefers jump packs over TDA). Your opinion (that you're forcing on everyone because of your beliefs) is not shared by thousands of other Blood Angels players. You can't honestly believe that GW keeps to the fluff of 40k when they design codexes. Since they don't there's no reason to not allow Assault Squads as troops (without a special character to do so) because it's not a 100% reflection of the fluff anyways.

Rules-wise, the 2nd Edition AoD Codex allowed the Blood Angels to field nearly an entire army's worth of death company since the unit had no maximum size (of course you'd still need the core choices), and there's that thing you guys were just talking about where they COULD have AS as troops. Sounds like Jump Packs galore to me. 3rd Edition Blood Angels had the Rhino Rush for Tac marines, and ways to get copious amounts of Death Company as well (I think I could field roughly 20 DC marines regularly with a certain build). Then they had Fast Attack Assault Marines and Elite Choice Vet Assault Marines. And then there's the 4th/5th ed PDF that has Assault Squads as troops and STILL has Vet Assault Marines as elites and honor guards that can take jump packs. My point here is that the Blood Angels codexes have all, since 2nd ed, tried to differentiate Blood Angels from Index Astartes marines by allowing the RULES to let them field more Close-Combat Phase themed units.

I'm tired of the opinion that BA should only be C:SM + Baal Preds + Furiosos + DC + Special Characters, etc. What's the point? Go play C:SM and field 30 fast attack Assault Squads and two 5-man tac squad units. Doesn't that represent an assault-themed army by your logic? You know what, Blood Angels were my first army too. I started them back in 1996. From day one, I remember Assault Marines (guys with jump packs) as the iconic unit for the army. So why is your opinion more valid than mine?

Moral of the story (and actually on topic!), the Blood Angels codex will likely have rules or FOC alterations to represent RULES-WISE how the Blood Angels prefer hand-to-hand over ranged combat, as per their fluff. Whether that's in the form of X independent character granting AS as troops, or some other crafty GW mechanic, who knows. Blood Angels hold a special place in my heart as THE ASSAULT ARMY in the imperium. Sanguinius didn't fire bolters at the Greater Daemons he killed, he carved them new waste disposal points in hand-to-hand. Yes, let's reflect our Primarch's preference towards HTH with medium range bolter fire as our army-wide tactica. :wtf::rolleyes:

wilsongrahams
14-10-2009, 12:22
Well said.

The rules shouldn't force you to take tactical squads, however you can if you wish and I usually will. The force list should be flexible enough to allow you to take an all assault army if you wish however, and in time I intend to do that too!

Using fluff as an argument doesn't work for example DA and Deathwing - how many Deathwing only armies are there when that is only one tenth of their chapter? Surely you should force them to have nine other squads using your reasoning?

Personally I would prefer to be allowed to take whatever forces I wanted out of say the second company plus the elites etc. All Tac, Assault and Dev troops should all count as troops in my opinion as all are the basic marines and should all hold ground - you really think a devastator squad can't hold terrain? They do it best!

Leave armour to support, bikes and speeders to fast, and veterans, termies and death company to elites.

Following fluff, this is also true as usually companies are deployed as a whole with maybe some vets accompanying them for the ride.

Also I can imagine when Dante leads the chapter, every assault squad and veteran squad grabs their jump packs and follows him in for one giant assault wave - thus you could have dante allowing you to take more than the companies' worth of assault squads and have as many as you want which is 18 in the chapter i believe... (2 per battle company and a whole 8th company), plus up to ten vet assault squads.

inq.covenant
14-10-2009, 12:59
Whoa. It seems better men than I have got in with their opinions first but I'll comment anyway.

I personally don't think Blood Angels need to have Assault Squads as Troops. It is their gene-curse that makes them feared and highly effective assault troops, not their preference of equipment. If you need an example from background fluff: Index Astartes II, page 35. "Perhaps the most notable exception that the Blood Angels exhibit in their ranks is a preponderance of close combat troops. The chance to become one of the Blood Angels' Assault Marines is much sought after, as it is in close combat that these Space Marines can exorcise the ghosts of their ancestral memory." Now granted, the first line of that blurb would suggest that there are a higher number of Assault Squads in BA company organisation than normal... However, how can the chance to become an Assault marine be highly sought after if Assault Squads are as common as Tactical Squads?!

To me it seems like BA company organisation follows standard codex guidelines (6 Tactical, 2 Assault, 2 Devastator) and that there is fierce competition amongst Blood Angels to join the 2 available squads. I also believe that Blood Angel Assault Squads are probably maintained at full strength of 10 men, even on prolonged campaigns, as casualties are quickly replaced by marines from other squads, eager to 'exorcise their ghosts'.

The first line of that blurb therefore refers to Veteran marines choosing to utilise assault orientated equipment over tactical, i.e. Vanguard not Sternguard, and the presence of the jump-pack equipped Honour Guard. Furthermore the Furioso Dreadnought is equipped for close combat and I believe was the first Space Marine Dread to be so.

In short, keep Tactical Squads as the main Troops choice and keep Assault Marines in Fast Attack. You can still create an assault heavy army but using Vanguard Veterans (or whatever they're going to be in the new codex), Terminators and the Death Company.

Just a few of my thoughts. Ultimately whatever the new Blood Angels codex allows or does not allow won't please everyone. One thing I think we can all agree on is that (like Space Wolves), new Blood Angels have been a long time coming. I'm looking forward to it!

Ghal Maraz
14-10-2009, 13:00
Moral of the story (and actually on topic!), the Blood Angels codex will likely have rules or FOC alterations to represent RULES-WISE how the Blood Angels prefer hand-to-hand over ranged combat, as per their fluff. Whether that's in the form of X independent character granting AS as troops, or some other crafty GW mechanic, who knows. Blood Angels hold a special place in my heart as THE ASSAULT ARMY in the imperium. Sanguinius didn't fire bolters at the Greater Daemons he killed, he carved them new waste disposal points in hand-to-hand. Yes, let's reflect our Primarch's preference towards HTH with medium range bolter fire as our army-wide tactica. :wtf::rolleyes:

Oh, yes. And please, explain me, my dear sir, how having 44 Tactical Squads and 18 Devastator Squads against 10 Veteran Squads and 18 Assault Squads plus Death Company represent their precedence for hand-to-hand combat over ranged one, in fluff. BA are more assault than other Chapters, that's granted, but in Force Organization that's only represented by the 1st Company; Death Company being an ad hoc force, used only when necessary (i.e., when there are Marines afflicted by the gene-seed flaw). That almost never means, in battlefield terms, an entire Jump Packs force.

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 13:14
I always find it amusing when people recognise something they are saying may cause offence, but say it anyway ;)

I didn't mean to particularly offensive, only to admit that I had gone through a few more insulting versions before ending up with what I posted. I wasn't sure if any bile had leaked through. :P


Might I suggest that what you want to play isn't Codex Blood Angels, it's Codex Chaos Space Marines? ;)

If CSM could field Raptors as troops choices (and had an awesome plastic kit for them) then you'd bet I'd play it. As it stands, Blood Angels is the only codex that can do this. ;)


That almost never means, in battlefield terms, an entire Jump Packs force.

And I still say that you guys have no imagination about all this. Perhaps the game you're playing could be part of a speartip assault headed by a combination of the 1st, 2nd, and 5th Companies composed of their Assault troops, making drops out of Thunderhawks into battle. That would be a good excuse to only be using Assault Squads as troops, wouldn't it?

And besides all that, what if you don't even care about the fluff? Maybe you (like me, though I also love the BA fluff) really like Assault Squads, and the prospect of an entire army of them appeals to you? Smaller in number than other footslogger lists, but fast and comes with tactical flexibility due to the ability to Deep Strike your entire army.

Lastly, just because you can field X number of Jump Infantry squads doesn't mean you always do, like Guard players who can field eighteen Basilisks as the Defender in Planetstrike, because even basic RAS are more expensive than Tactical Squads and between them and the Vets (and Honour Guard if you feel like taking them) you won't have a lot of room for all of it.

Just a thought, my good sir...:cool:

wilsongrahams
14-10-2009, 13:26
Yep, same point I was trying to make. I have a full company of marines plus all the extras and like to field variations each time I play. Sometimes I will use only tactical units for the feel of holding the line, sometimes I will want to use all my assualt units. I should be allowed some flexibility. Maybe an option to take an assault only army could replace the support choices so you are penalised in game too? I doubt too many people would complain about that? I want options, not restrictions.

aka_mythos
14-10-2009, 13:31
I don't see a problem with Assault Marines as troops. Every marine codex needs to have at least two troop choices or every army list really ends up very similar. Space Marines have Tactical Squads and Scouts with the possibility of bikes as troops. Space Wolves, have Bloodclaw and Grey Hunters, with the possibility of fenrisian wolves as troops. Following that line, Blood Angels should be Tactical Squads and Assault Squads as troops with the possibility for Death Company as troops.

There also isn't anything to say that Assault Squads as troops need to have jump packs.

The SkaerKrow
14-10-2009, 13:33
Oh, yes. And please, explain me, my dear sir, how having 44 Tactical Squads and 18 Devastator Squads against 10 Veteran Squads and 18 Assault Squads plus Death Company represent their precedence for hand-to-hand combat over ranged one, in fluff.Here's a simple answer: Change the outdated lore that contradicts with the rules. Not like the Blood Angels' Chapter Organization Chart is the most compelling piece of fiction that GW's ever churned out.

inq.covenant
14-10-2009, 13:42
And I still say that you guys have no imagination about all this. Perhaps the game you're playing could be part of a speartip assault headed by a combination of the 1st, 2nd, and 5th Companies composed of their Assault troops, making drops out of Thunderhawks into battle. That would be a good excuse to only be using Assault Squads as troops, wouldn't it?

That's a really good point actually...

static grass
14-10-2009, 13:45
I think the Dude and inq.convenant make good points about tactical only for Troop choices.

I quite torn about having assault troops as tactical, yes it would give the BA something different, but I am quite repelled by the idea that BA players would run with only assault troops claiming "BAs are an assault army". Yes BAs are good at assaulting but they are not zerkers. The tactical marine is still the mainstay of a chapter. BAs struggle with their inner demons but they do not all succum to them. The battle against the Black rage and the red thirst is only to be contrasted against their nobility and craftmanship.

I love the new termies from space hulk but reprenting with facies suitable as extras for Buffy doesn't fit.

Regardless of where in the FOC they end up I would like to see them only available in Full 10 man squads as suggested by inq.covenant.

Scenarios are something else completely. You are free to do what you want. Nothing to stop you having a game of planet strike.

Doomseer
14-10-2009, 13:51
I can well imagine a Jump Pack force unlockable by taking Dante or a similar mechanism, it will give every player options and hopefully keep everyone happy.

What I think/hope will happen is that Tactical Squads will have Bolter/Bolt Pistol/Chainsword/Grenade loadout the same as Grey Hunters. This is the best of both worlds and definitely reflects chapter structure and their penchant for CC.

Ghal Maraz
14-10-2009, 13:52
Here's a simple answer: Change the outdated lore that contradicts with the rules. Not like the Blood Angels' Chapter Organization Chart is the most compelling piece of fiction that GW's ever churned out.

Outdated because you don't like it? And, between, you really didn't answer my question...

Please notice: I'm not saying GW wouldn't change the fluff, nor I'm saying "leave Assault Squads out of Troop choice"! But, as someone already said, make them Troops with the right Special character, which is the same thing as with the Master of the Ravenwing/Master of the Deathwing. In fact, there are more DW squads, in the DA Chapter than Assault Marine squads in the BA Chapter, and normally, DW are Elites.

And yes, I understand that an assault oriented Force Organization chart could be easily implemented, even more so for the small scale engagements of WH40K, but I was merely contesting the fluff aspect which Sons of Sanguinius stated (had he simply said "a preference, in respect to other Chapters", I would have easily agreed). Moreover, I'm actually in favour of divergent force org. charts in the Codices, having the right tools to implement them (whicm means, quite simply, balance issues).

Moreover, I think that GW really made a mistake with the Vanguards in C: SM. Now, as it stands, not counting the "hidden" Death Company, BA are almost a standard Codex Astartes chapter (unless they change something in the new Codex book).

inq.covenant
14-10-2009, 13:59
I can well imagine a Jump Pack force unlockable by taking Dante or a similar mechanism, it will give every player options and hopefully keep everyone happy.

What I think/hope will happen is that Tactical Squads will have Bolter/Bolt Pistol/Chainsword/Grenade loadout the same as Grey Hunters. This is the best of both worlds and definitely reflects chapter structure and their penchant for CC.

Sorry have to step in here and say NO. Do not make Blood Angels Tactical Squads like Grey Hunters. Grey Hunters are Grey Hunters and Tactical Squads are Tactical Squads. Blood Angels strive to emulate the Codex Astartes (but cannot perfectly because of the Red Thirst) and giving Tactical Squads that equipment does not reflect chapter structure.

gitburna
14-10-2009, 14:02
with 20-odd pages to read though i have no idea if this may or may not have been mentioned already... On principle i have no issue with assault squads as troops. The current codex allows it. No big deal.
If anyones worried about assault squad armies not looking "right" as per the blood angels prvious background, perhaps they might have a rule that a particular character allows one assault squad to be a troops choice a la Warboss. Or some sort of "take the fight to them" rule where the assault squads can't hold objectives because they're too bloodthirsty.

Given that the BA codex should also represent the Fleshtearers and other descendant chapters with their almost berzerker-like approach, maybe just a plain old tac/assault mix is ok, with scouts being either elite or fast attack (if a chapters understrength and desperately needs to rebuild its strength, does make the scouts more valuable and hence elites...or much more carefully used therefore fast attack? )

pjklan
14-10-2009, 14:07
@ the dude:
do you think BA scouts are more common than assault marines?
do you think BA scouts are more fluffy than assault marines?
if your answer is NO (and obviously it is) why do you think that fielding scout only as troops is more fluffy for BA than fielding assault marines only?
tac squads as troops are OK in any SM chapter.
in some you have bikes, termies, scouts, veterans and so on.
why not assault squads?
there is no army capable of fielding all jump packs.
i see BA only are fit for it.

junglesnake
14-10-2009, 14:16
Always thought that the DA's and BA's logically went in the same dex simply because although they both like to think they are the most loyal chapters they hide secrets that would otherwise have them thrown out of the imperium.

aka_mythos
14-10-2009, 14:17
Now, as it stands, not counting the "hidden" Death Company, BA are almost a standard Codex Astartes chapter (unless they change something in the new Codex book). This why I think we will see assault squads as troops, without a number of changes like that, they end up as too similar to the main space marines codex. If the idea of taking bikes as troops isn't crazy why is the idea of assault squads.

Also, I still think there is alot of discussion revolving around assault squads solely as jump pack troops... they can always be assault squads without jump packs but with rhinos as troops. This doesn't need to be a black and white discussion.

The BA codex needs to be extensively different than the Codex Space Marines to be worth while. That means there need a to be a number of small but characterful and sensible differences.

Jon_Irenicus
14-10-2009, 14:25
The moment I see people justifying the presense of assault squads as Troops as to differentiate a codex (originally a codex-adherent one, save for the DC) is the moment I say they should be put in vanilla with a special unit representing DC.

Well, except for the Red Thirst and a few special units, 3rd edition BA 'dex referred to the 3rd edition Space Marine Codex for a reason.

While I certainly don't like the direction taken, given that every Blood Angels is a nutcase and holding by a string, I can't argue that all the complications that come from the NEED (notice the emphasis) for special rules, especially when the game designers are unsure of how to apply or make them stick (really, look at C:SW - lots of stuff there that are taken from norse mythology and work great with the army) and it could've been handled better with the current BA.

Flypaper
14-10-2009, 14:55
The moment I see people justifying the presense of assault squads as Troops as to differentiate a codex (originally a codex-adherent one, save for the DC) is the moment I say they should be put in vanilla with a special unit representing DC.Huh? Isn't that the wrong way around? No RAS means you're only an Assault Cannon Predator turret away from being 100% Codex: Space Marines compatible via counts-as. There's even a "special unit representing DC" in there already - they're called Vanguard Veterans.

Or are you just saying that you'd rather have no codex at all rather than one that contradicts your reading of the fluff? :eyebrows:

...Now, personally, my disinterest in Blood Angel fluff is like unto an all-consuming void which even light cannot escape. But I am intensely interested in a list with Assault Marines as Troops for my DIY. RAS stay without having to be hobbled to a special character - I buy. Otherwise - I do not buy. My needs are uncomplicated. :cool:

HsojVvad
14-10-2009, 14:58
Shouldn't we be having a discussion of assault troops or what not in the general forums? I thought it was suppose to be news and rumours here. While I do enjoy the topic and debate, I am trying to find rumours for the upcoming release of the BA codex.

Please make a new topic in general, I will gladly fallow it there.

aka_mythos
14-10-2009, 15:00
The simple fact is Blood Angels have too many special rules and characters to be just another Codex Space Marine army. GW is doing Blood Angels. That leaves only two possibilities, A) they make them Codex Space Marine light, with Death Company, Furioso, Baal Predator, and special characters added in exchange for leaving out other units or B) they are done in a more characterful way that further distinguishes them from the Codex chapters.

"A" is what the pdf is. "B" is the more worth while way to go since its a whole book.

SW have shown us what we should expect from these other marine codices. To want anything less than that level of effort is a waste.

gorgon
14-10-2009, 15:10
The point is the Blood Angels may favour close assault, but that doesn't mean they have more Assault Marines. They follow the Codex for their Chapter structure, meaning they have the same number of Assault Marines as the Ultramarines do.

cthorpe's point is a valid one. The Blood Angels do not like their curse. They don't want to devolve into raving madmen. They do not embrace the Black Rage, and fight against its influence at every turn. There is only one Blood Angel who has ever recovered from it, so succumbing is a death sentence. Maintaining a Codex structure and forcing yourself to fight at arms length is the prefect way of keeping the Rage down. Dishing out the Jump Packs like they’re going out of style is the quickest way to lose half the Chapter.

Dude, I have your back on this one. IMO, vampires with jump packs just isn't much of a concept. I know that's what Gav set up in the 3rd edition codex. But although Gav's a good writer, I'm not sure he's the strongest conceptual designer they've had.

BA need a concept and hook that involves more than fangs and rockets strapped to backs. Here's what I wrote in a similar thread on Dakka:


If I was writing it I'd downplay the vampiric stuff and play up the general sense of BA being a chapter slowly descending into madness. I just have this mental image of a sun setting on fading heroes in baroque armor that I think could be really powerful. I'd play up the sense of creeping doom, but also show them as heroically raging (if you will) against the dying of the light...even though the end is inevitable. I also think there's some room there to do something interesting with the Flesh Tearers and show them as the ultimate expression of this doom.

Not saying this is THE answer, just that maybe the vampirism and bloody bloody blood blood stuff is really overdone and simplistic. Those are trappings of the BA, but they don't really get to the bottom of what the chapter's about. I mean, SW aren't just about their beards and axes, right? The new codex really evokes the sense of the Nordic hero. I think BA deserve something similarly evocative beyond just jump packs. And I think the struggle against madness is a good place to start.

Shibboleth
14-10-2009, 15:13
It's a bit late to be arguing what GW should or shouldn't do in the BA Codex really.
It would've already been decided months ago and is probably on the way to the printers by now.

Jon_Irenicus
14-10-2009, 15:18
Huh? Isn't that the wrong way around? No RAS means you're only an Assault Cannon Predator turret away from being 100% Codex: Space Marines compatible via counts-as. There's even a "special unit representing DC" in there already - they're called Vanguard Veterans.

As they were. And no, Death Company aren't Vanguard Veterans. Vanguard Veterans = Veteran Assault Marines. So, yes, I'd go with the "No-RAS" approach.



Or are you just saying that you'd rather have no codex at all rather than one that contradicts your reading of the fluff? :eyebrows:

Which I must say is an opinion, which I am entitled to ;) As a BA fan, I'm saying that I am displeased with the way the fluff has been handled, and I think I made my point on this in another post, while comparing vampire movies.


...Now, personally, my disinterest in Blood Angel fluff is like unto an all-consuming void which even light cannot escape. But I am intensely interested in a list with Assault Marines as Troops for my DIY. RAS stay without having to be hobbled to a special character - I buy. Otherwise - I do not buy. My needs are uncomplicated. :cool:

So you criticize me yet your interest isn't even BA. Smooth :cool:

I respect your opinion as a fellow gamer/hobbyist, and surely nobody forces me to play with the new BA 'dex. I just think that BA are being released to fill a gap, and I'd prefer them to be released because they deserve it - like the Space Wolves. Or the Black Templars, or the Dark Angels - given a set of rules that aren't badly handled or the result of poor brainstorming.

gorgon
14-10-2009, 15:24
It's a bit late to be arguing what GW should or shouldn't do in the BA Codex really.
It would've already been decided months ago and is probably on the way to the printers by now.

Assuming a March or April release, it's extremely unlikely it's been sent to the printers. The writing might be done.

demonnick
14-10-2009, 15:35
The removal or not of the Assualt Squad from the troop choice menu is not so big a deal. What needs to be done, is change Sarpedon a bit since he is the most powerfull Librarian alive and others have gone ahead of him(exe: Jaws of the World Wolf) and aside from some cool sprues have an option of taking Dante without a jump pack.

prose.
14-10-2009, 16:00
OK enough about Assault Squads already. Take it to another thread. Does anyone have any actual rumours or should we start talking about Tyranids here since this thread apparently wont get closed down for wishlisting?

aka_mythos
14-10-2009, 16:03
I think they could do a lot more with their fluff and execution and there is no reson that they can't retcon. some fluff to make something more interesting. Vampire marines, as cool as they are leave much to be desired. They just deserve more than some peoples desire that they become cookie cutter to Codex Space Marines.

Ghal Maraz
14-10-2009, 16:16
The removal or not of the Assualt Squad from the troop choice menu is not so big a deal. What needs to be done, is change Sarpedon a bit since he is the most powerfull Librarian alive and others have gone ahead of him(exe: Jaws of the World Wolf) and aside from some cool sprues have an option of taking Dante without a jump pack.

Sarpedon? I guess that means Mephiston, right? Who, I guess, is at the very best the strongest loyalist Space Marine psyker (traitors have Ahriman and that's until we go in Daemon Prince territory, where probably nobody beats Magnus the Red) alive, not certainly the strongest psyker. Remember that there are Alpha psykers, Eldar Farseers and THE Hive Mind, out there. Not counting the Emperor. And, perhaps I'm wrong, but it's suggested that the most powerful Chief Librarian is Tigurius, counting on his psychic feats (he has premonitions and it seems he has penetrated the Hive Mind itself). Or at least Tiggy and Mephy are on par.

But if you are talking physically, yes, the strongest sure is Mephiston. And I think that would be quite clearly shown in the Codex.

pookie
14-10-2009, 17:07
The removal or not of the Assualt Squad from the troop choice menu is not so big a deal. What needs to be done, is change Sarpedon a bit since he is the most powerfull Librarian alive and others have gone ahead of him(exe: Jaws of the World Wolf) and aside from some cool sprues have an option of taking Dante without a jump pack.

no he isnt. plus he's a mutant tratorous scum, so he should never be mentioned in a thread about the Nobel BA's.

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 17:54
Two things:

1-I've made a thread to discuss RAS as troops or not in General Discussion, found here (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4038022#post4038022).

2-On the vampirism influence, didn't Angels of Death have a full-page illustration of Mephiston wiping his mouth with bats flying above him, giving a vampire look? Really the only time I saw such influence in Space Hulk was Sergeant Lorenzo, and only because of his fangs. There was no reference to it in the Missions book.

aka_mythos
14-10-2009, 18:15
I think the common thread for Angels of Death was that both Blood Angels and Dark Angels have this sinster aspect to them. Something dark lurking beneath the surface. Like a horror movie when you've seen the killer, or darker thing it loses the mystique. Unfortunately the over use of the vampire motif for BA has done that to them. GW should consider adding more to them or portray some aspect to their habitual blood fetish that isn't vampiric.

Fobster
14-10-2009, 19:26
Sweetness. I was going to proxy a wolfwing as a my redone BA's. I'm assuming of course that the new codex will allow tac terminators to have a opshield and hammer option. Though now im going to be stuck with a single lightning claw terminator?

I hope that death company aren't mandatory anymore. Considering BA are supposed to be the longest lived marines but have a 10% chance of turning into lunies every battle. Not good for your longevity.

As for there being more BA assault squads. Very likely. They have a preference for close combat and positions in the assault squads are highly valued. As squads take casualties it seems most likely that the assault squads would be at full str while the others were depleted.

In the original fluff that some people here cherish they had access to 10 more assault squads than vanilla chapters in the form of power armored veterans. They also had access to an extra 4 combat squads worth in the form of honor guards for their captains.

Where was it mentioned that mephiston was the 2/3 most powerful psyker? I always thought of him as a psychically augmented warrior. The bloodlust he had in 2nd ed and the crappy refractor field put me off fielding him. Hopefully he gets a kickass combat profile and some useful wargear.

Anyway im off to convert my winged marine on radscorpion.

Black Hand
14-10-2009, 19:33
@ Sons of Sanguinius

Well said SoS. Well said indeed.

Ominous Anonymous
14-10-2009, 19:40
Hopefully he gets a kickass combat profile and some useful wargear.

He's already I6 with a Strength and Toughness of 5 each, all he really needs (and by extension the regular Librarian) is some good powers and maybe an invulnerable save.

Jackmojo
14-10-2009, 20:13
He's already I6 with a Strength and Toughness of 5 each, all he really needs (and by extension the regular Librarian) is some good powers and maybe an invulnerable save.

I'd like to see him back at the 'all 6s' statline he had in 2nd (or at least the lower stat 3.x version of that WS6, BS6, S6, T6, I6,), and I'd be willing to have him be slightly less impressive as a psyker to make that affordable personally.

Sort of a Monstrous creature since he's all dracula-like.

Jack

Murphy's law
14-10-2009, 20:37
I think Blood Angels should use giant coffins instead of drop pods.

Israfael
14-10-2009, 20:45
I think Blood Angels should use giant coffins instead of drop pods.

They should also have a rule that makes them move six inches towards the nearest teenage, love-interest per turn as well.

Perhaps a rule that reflects them sparking in sunlight; a version of the night-fight rules but during the day. ;)

Marshal2Crusaders
14-10-2009, 20:57
They should also have a rule that makes them move six inches towards the nearest teenage, love-interest per turn as well.

Perhaps a rule that reflects them sparking in sunlight; a version of the night-fight rules but during the day. ;)

Only if you take Apothecary Carlisle.

Bloodspeaker
14-10-2009, 21:12
On a different note does anyone know the writer of the codex?

Furthermore i remember reading somewhere that the BA hold in the dugeons of their keep on Baal some of their brothers that have fully succumbed to the red thirst but they haven't died, of course they are little more than ravening beasts but imagine how cool it would be to see a squad like this on the field.
They are essentially fully fledged beast vampires maybe kinda like the vargulf from fantasy ( i don't mean in apperance) i hope they expand more on them.

Finally don't get me wrong i like BA i get that they should be portrayed as tragic doomed heroes fighting against themselves as well against the enemies of man but what i really wanna is their monstrous side fleshed out and represented more on the tt, i really wanna see a truly monstrous special character ala vampire counts and some monstrous and unsual new units.

GideonRavenor
14-10-2009, 21:18
Strange point, but I would love to see a Chapter Master option for successors; it would allow me to stop messing around with counts as and special characters.

Alfonzo
14-10-2009, 21:50
Indeed they could (funny, I'd never read that page :p), but my reading of that paragraph is that they're meant to represent the Death Company, rather than actual Assault Squads, and that the bit about giving Vets JPs is meant to represent the extra Assault Troops.

Either way, I'm not enamoured of it, and would prefer it to change.

I really have no opinion on the matter, but as long as we were discussing precedent I thought I'd throw that out there, however tenuous it may be.

Marshal2Crusaders
14-10-2009, 22:24
The Blood Angels Codex would be an excellent place to set a precedent for 'successor' Characters.

DaSpaceAsians
14-10-2009, 22:25
Umm sorry to derail the discussion but who's writing this codex?

Marshal2Crusaders
14-10-2009, 22:30
Umm sorry to derail the discussion but who's writing this codex?

James Swallow

DaSpaceAsians
14-10-2009, 22:32
James Swallow

good or bad?

Israfael
14-10-2009, 22:42
good or bad?

No good can come of this.

Kaldanesh
14-10-2009, 23:18
good or bad?

James Swallow is a black library author who has been writing the BA novels. He is not a codex writer.

dienekes96
15-10-2009, 00:02
They should also have a rule that makes them move six inches towards the nearest teenage, love-interest per turn as well.I'm with Team Jacob.

DaSpaceAsians
15-10-2009, 00:18
James Swallow is a black library author who has been writing the BA novels. He is not a codex writer.

That means very bad then?

The Dude
15-10-2009, 00:49
Veterans and Honour Guard with jump packs is enough to represent an Assault orientation for Blood Angels, and is the only different between them and a standard codex chapter organization anyways. They can take an Honour Guard Squad with jump packs as part of an HQ choice, 3 Veteran Assault Squads as ELITES choices, and 3 Assault Squads as FAST ATTACK choices, and all in one FOC. No other Space Marine army can do that(heck, maybe Space Wolves can do that too; I'm not sure :p), yet that is still not enough to represent a "tendency" to take Assault units?


Space Wolves can technically do 9 if they take Logan and equip all their Wolf Guard with JPs.


Fluff-wise, you're absolutely correct about their organization (excluding that their vet company in fact prefers jump packs over TDA). Your opinion (that you're forcing on everyone because of your beliefs) is not shared by thousands of other Blood Angels players.

I am not forcing anything on anyone.


You can't honestly believe that GW keeps to the fluff of 40k when they design codexes. Since they don't there's no reason to not allow Assault Squads as troops (without a special character to do so) because it's not a 100% reflection of the fluff anyways.

This statement is rather silly. Of course GW stick to the fluff when designing armies, even if that means they have to change the fluff. Since they haven’t changed the fluff of the BA’s organisational structure, I don’t see why Assault Squads should be Troops.


Rules-wise, the 2nd Edition AoD Codex allowed the Blood Angels to field nearly an entire army's worth of death company since the unit had no maximum size (of course you'd still need the core choices), and there's that thing you guys were just talking about where they COULD have AS as troops. Sounds like Jump Packs galore to me.

IIRC, in second edition any Space Marine army could field an entire army of Jump Packs because there were only 3 categories of units. You could also use up to half your points cost on Characters if you wanted. Second edition is far from the ideal method to make this point.


3rd Edition Blood Angels had the Rhino Rush for Tac marines, and ways to get copious amounts of Death Company as well (I think I could field roughly 20 DC marines regularly with a certain build). Then they had Fast Attack Assault Marines and Elite Choice Vet Assault Marines.

What’s your point here? There’s not Assault Squads as Troops here. This approach is close to what I’m advocating (apart from the way Death Company are chosen *shudders*)


And then there's the 4th/5th ed PDF that has Assault Squads as troops and STILL has Vet Assault Marines as elites and honor guards that can take jump packs. My point here is that the Blood Angels codexes have all, since 2nd ed, tried to differentiate Blood Angels from Index Astartes marines by allowing the RULES to let them field more Close-Combat Phase themed units.

*sigh* And I’m not saying they shouldn’t, just that Honourt Guard and Vet Assault Squads are MORE THAN ENOUGH without adding Assault Squads as Troops FOR ALL BUILDS.


I'm tired of the opinion that BA should only be C:SM + Baal Preds + Furiosos + DC + Special Characters, etc. What's the point? Go play C:SM and field 30 fast attack Assault Squads and two 5-man tac squad units. Doesn't that represent an assault-themed army by your logic?

It does, but without an appropriate Death Company, Honour Guard and Special Characters, it doesn’t represent a Blood Angels army ;)


You know what, Blood Angels were my first army too. I started them back in 1996. From day one, I remember Assault Marines (guys with jump packs) as the iconic unit for the army. So why is your opinion more valid than mine?

It’s not, but you are stubbornly refusing to understand my point. Blood Angels have enough of a close combat bent without making Assault Squads Troops.


Moral of the story (and actually on topic!), the Blood Angels codex will likely have rules or FOC alterations to represent RULES-WISE how the Blood Angels prefer hand-to-hand over ranged combat, as per their fluff. Whether that's in the form of X independent character granting AS as troops, or some other crafty GW mechanic, who knows.

I have never ever said that Assault Squads should NEVER be troops. I was, in fact, the first person in this thread to suggest it should be linked to Dante.


Using fluff as an argument doesn't work for example DA and Deathwing - how many Deathwing only armies are there when that is only one tenth of their chapter? Surely you should force them to have nine other squads using your reasoning? [snip]
Also I can imagine when Dante leads the chapter, every assault squad and veteran squad grabs their jump packs and follows him in for one giant assault wave - thus you could have dante allowing you to take more than the companies' worth of assault squads and have as many as you want which is 18 in the chapter i believe... (2 per battle company and a whole 8th company), plus up to ten vet assault squads.

All of those Deathwing only armies are lead by the appropriate special Character. All I’m suggesting is that this divergent build for Blood Angels ALSO be attached to an appropriate Special Character.


If CSM could field Raptors as troops choices (and had an awesome plastic kit for them) then you'd bet I'd play it. As it stands, Blood Angels is the only codex that can do this. ;)

Well, Space Wolves can too now… for a price.

As I have explained MANY times now, I am not saying you should NEVER be allowed to take Assault Squads as Troops, just that it should be limited to a Special Character.


@ the dude:
do you think BA scouts are more common than assault marines?
do you think BA scouts are more fluffy than assault marines?
if your answer is NO (and obviously it is) why do you think that fielding scout only as troops is more fluffy for BA than fielding assault marines only?

[David Attenborough]
Here we see a prime example of the elusive Strawman. See how it puffs itself up, creating an imposing presence and appearing to pose a significant threat. It may look impressive, but for all its pomp and noise, if challenged, it falls apart.
[/David Attenborough]

When did I say Blood Angels should have Scouts as Troops? :rolleyes:

Anyway, I see this thread getting moved (which is probably my fault) but as there won’t be any rumour for Blood Angels for some time, I don’t imagine that to be too much of an issue.

Sons of Sanguinius
15-10-2009, 00:57
Anyway, I see this thread getting moved (which is probably my fault) but as there won’t be any rumour for Blood Angels for some time, I don’t imagine that to be too much of an issue.
I agree, unless GD Italy says ANYTHING about BA (which IMO it will be a purely Tyranid preview event) then this thread has exceeded it's life expectancy. And on a side note, your post has some good points in it. I also huff and puff when it comes to defending BA as an actual separate and "jump-pack filled" dex, but I guess overall we have zero say in what goes on at GW.

Anywyas, is there any truth in James Swallow taking a shot at writing the dex, or was that a joke?

Melchiah
15-10-2009, 01:06
Sorry for the ingorance but im asking on behalf of a friend whom is not a member but plays BA. Is there any "rumours" about the codex other then its after the 'nids?

The Dude
15-10-2009, 01:12
Sorry for the ingorance but im asking on behalf of a friend whom is not a member but plays BA. Is there any "rumours" about the codex other then its after the 'nids?

No, and I wouldn't expect anything solid until after Nids come out.

Unless GW has a change of heart, that is... ;)

Frgt/10
15-10-2009, 01:47
Anywyas, is there any truth in James Swallow taking a shot at writing the dex, or was that a joke?

thankfully it was a joke...

Anarnaxe
15-10-2009, 02:10
Apparently, James Swallow is more evil then Chuckie, Micheal Myers, Jason Vorhees, The Scream Guy and the Devil combined!

He wrote a series of Black Library novels concerning the Blood Angels, the novels are almost universally hated.

I presume the author of the Blood Angels might be either Phil Kelly or Robin Cruddace, they seem to be the most likely developers to do so.....Although Mat Ward could be just as likely.

MadDoc
15-10-2009, 02:21
I presume the author of the Blood Angels might be either Phil Kelly or Robin Cruddace, they seem to be the most likely developers to do so.....

Either of whom would likely do a reasonable job.


Although Mat Ward could be just as likely.

:eek: Wash your mouth/mind out with soap! That person should not be allowed within spitting distance of Codex/Army Book design ever again. :skull:

On a side note, if at some point they give him the DA to redo, I'll hunt down the person responsible and make them wish they were never born... :evilgrin:

Wolf Scout Ewan
15-10-2009, 02:30
I'm kinda expecting Tac squads with bolt pistols and CCW but without jumpacks. But these will moderated by the requirement of at least 1+ Tac squads, for every tac squad you may take a assault squad without jumppacks as troops.

Raven guard maybe would have jumppack tac marines but jumppack assault squads as assault FOC choices.

Jumppack assault squads as troops? I cant see it personally.

Anarnaxe
15-10-2009, 02:34
MadDoc, your halfway around the world, by the time you would get to the UK, I would have already taken care of buisness if they ever gave him the DA codex.

I wouldn't mind Robin Cruddace working on the Blood Angels codex, he made the Imperial Guard a fair and balanced force again (Why, yes I do play Guard). Both he and Phil Kelly have made unique codexes, taking what was around before, adding to it and creating something that has gotten people back into the respective armies.

Troop Assault Squads could be upgraded Tactical Squads (+4pts, the squad could get rid of its bolters and gain jumppacks, and for-going heavy weapons).

ElChad
15-10-2009, 03:39
I'm kinda expecting Tac squads with bolt pistols and CCW but without jumpacks. But these will moderated by the requirement of at least 1+ Tac squads, for every tac squad you may take a assault squad without jumppacks as troops.

Raven guard maybe would have jumppack tac marines but jumppack assault squads as assault FOC choices.

Jumppack assault squads as troops? I cant see it personally.

Thats more like it Ewan. IMO Id like to see tac squads having the option of taking bolters or boltpistols & CCWs, dispensing with heavy weapons & allowing +1 special weapon (they'll still have devastators).

Id also like to see an assaulty army wide special rule like in the 3rd ed Dex. All BA used to have furious charge or similar I think? Maybe not as potent as that but something to set them apart from their less bloodthirsty Astartes brethren.

Scouts as troops would also be nice. Only wolf scouts should be elites.

The Dude
15-10-2009, 03:52
Thats more like it Ewan. IMO Id like to see tac squads having the option of taking bolters or boltpistols & CCWs, dispensing with heavy weapons & allowing +1 special weapon (they'll still have devastators).

Id also like to see an assaulty army wide special rule like in the 3rd ed Dex. All BA used to have furious charge or similar I think? Maybe not as potent as that but something to set them apart from their less bloodthirsty Astartes brethren.

Scouts as troops would also be nice. Only wolf scouts should be elites.

:cries::cries::cries::cries::cries:

Hellebore
15-10-2009, 04:18
:cries::cries::cries::cries:

Heh heh. It's ok, it's nothing less than GW will do. I have a bad feeling that they will retcon both DA and BA heavily in order to distinguish them from ultramarines and space wolves. Whether there is precedent or not.

I mean, we got sternguard and vanguard despite them never existing before and that's messing with the codex astartes.

Hopefully Blood Bloodson won't show up with his piggyback brigade.

Hellebore

The Dude
15-10-2009, 04:21
I mean, we got sternguard and vanguard despite them never existing before and that's messing with the codex astartes.

Well at a stretch that's just 2 different names for the same thing. They could have done them as a single unit entry and called them Veterans still.

Either way, I may simply repaint all my old BAs as Champions of Ma'at

Hellebore
15-10-2009, 04:25
It's the soopapspecial guns that the sternguard got that sticks in my craw. Entirely as a result of being incapable of representing veterns in the current 40k rules without gear. A ratling would be just as nasty carrying that gun.*remembers fondly 2nd ed veterans as WS5 BS5 I5 ... and then remembers Mephiston and Kharn :eek::cries:*

Wolf Wolfson and his unnatural love parade I think prove GW really don't seem to care about what came before... :(

Hellebore

ElChad
15-10-2009, 04:29
I mean, we got sternguard and vanguard despite them never existing before and that's messing with the codex astartes.

Not to mention Legion of the Damned ;)

Hellebore
15-10-2009, 04:30
Not to mention Legion of the Damned ;)

What about them? They were in the 2nd ed Ultramarines codex printed in ~1995...

Hellebore

ElChad
15-10-2009, 04:41
What about them? They were in the 2nd ed Ultramarines codex printed in ~1995...

Hellebore

I was unaware of that. Even so they are Codex SM Specific now which was kind of my point.

Brother Captain Alec
15-10-2009, 05:00
Either of whom would likely do a reasonable job.



:eek: Wash your mouth/mind out with soap! That person should not be allowed within spitting distance of Codex/Army Book design ever again.

What is so bad about this writer? What codex did he write?

Marshal2Crusaders
15-10-2009, 05:41
I was unaware of that. Even so they are Codex SM Specific now which was kind of my point.

It became obvious you don't have access to much second edition resources when you suggested that the Blood Angels get close combat weapons and chainswords or bolters on tactical squads. They wont do that because it would make them far to similar to Black Templars. If we are going to see GW streamline the 'poster' army of each Chapter is going to be:

Space Wolves: Lots of Wolf Stuff/Characters
Blood Angels: Assault Marines
Dark Angels: Death/Raven Wings
Black Templars: Tactical Squads with CC stuff

Where to build a 'normal' army, you have to focus what your forces around those things.

ElChad
15-10-2009, 06:00
I own Codex Black Templars so I know all about that. What I suggested for Blood Angles was just my own personal opinion of what I want them to be like. I get a tad excited when I think about red power armour.

Hey Ive got another idea, how about replacing chaplains with Sanguinary high priests :eek: (braces for impact)...

slingersam
15-10-2009, 06:19
The Dude your avatar reminds me of Shagorath from oblivion.

Anyway I just started painting my blood angels, and have gotten 2 battleforces, now should I wait for the codex to come out or should I just build them. I would like to use the upgrade sprue so maybe I should leave a couple of guys untouched?

Also is the Italian GD this sunday?

Sons of Sanguinius
15-10-2009, 06:26
The Dude your avatar reminds me of Shagorath from oblivion.
Just letting you know (don't know if you know) it's The Dude from The Big Lebowski. If you knew that, disregard. :P

Anyway I just started painting my blood angels, and have gotten 2 battleforces, now should I wait for the codex to come out or should I just build them. I would like to use the upgrade sprue so maybe I should leave a couple of guys untouched? Yes, absolutely. I myself was about to start converting and building new BA marines but when I saw this thread I stopped. We all know that the odds of getting an upgrade type of sprue are very high, so I'm holding out. If it doesn't happen, then at least having the codex in hand will give me enough motivation to finish them. Heck, I might even paint a few.


Also is the Italian GD this sunday?
Yes, but again, expect more Tyranid related previews if anything new at all is shown (besides regular forgeworld stuff).

Brimstone
15-10-2009, 07:21
Oh well no use been in news & rumours anymore so off too 40K General we go.

The Warseer Inquisition

MajorWesJanson
15-10-2009, 07:30
Last I heard, Cruddice is doing Tyranids, which is a very good thing I think, as his IG codex was great, and Mat Ward was working on Necrons, which means they will finally get new units and their fluff will be OTT, exactly in line with their previous dex :p

Blood Angels, I can see adding Vanguard Veterans to them with the heroic intervention option, maybe splicing that rule onto the Honor Guard. Command squads getting Jump pack option instead of bikes. Assault squads getting a few more weapon options beyond just flamers and plasma pistols, and becoming troops with a character or captain with jump pack. Turbochargers as an upgrade on all rhino chassis vehicles. Tac squads set up like blood claws in BP/CCW and 1 assault weapon per 5, plus some CCW options for the rest. Furioso Dreadnoughts will be just the ability to take 2 CCWs on a normal or venerable dreadnought. Death company as a mark you can give to one model per squad, or taking a character or chaplain lets you run full units of them. For characters, probably the current ones redone, plus one to three more, including a terminaotr character as a tiein to Space Hulk
Maybe one of the characters from Space Hulk itself, converting the plastic character in question to a metal character model.

They can do a lot to the BA while keeping the formation as Codex.

Flypaper
15-10-2009, 07:44
So you criticize me yet your interest isn't even BA. Smooth No criticism intended, I was just having trouble following your logic. And I'm profoundly interested in Blood Angels, in that they may provide me with rules I like enough to spend ~$500 on a new Space Marine army. That's the kind of interest Games Workshop can really get behind! It merely happens to be the case that I intend to paint them Scaly Green and cover them with Xenos gubbinz. :evilgrin:


And no, Death Company aren't Vanguard Veterans. Vanguard Veterans = Veteran Assault Marines.Um, not really. Vanguard Veterans = elite marines with an assault profile and a range of wargear options (including optional jump packs). Everything else is in the mind of the player. Paint 'em red with yellow helmets and they're VAS. Paint 'em black and they're Death Company - and if you want to be even fluffier, you can roleplay them as always charging the nearest enemy!

...Equip them differently and throw in some modelling variation, and they can be both within the same army!

This is offtopic anyway - but my point was that you can come pretty close to fully C:SM compliant Blood Angels with a little counts-as imagination.

I just think that BA are being released to fill a gap, and I'd prefer them to be released because they deserve it - like the Space Wolves. Or the Black Templars, or the Dark Angels I ... don't follow. At all. It sounds like your criteria are for deciding who "deserves" a novel, not a codex - when the key difference is that you need some honest-to-goodness gameplay variation in the latter.

Otherwise, we're just asking for exactly the same thing with a red coat of paint and a side-order of poorly written fan-fiction; and the people complaining about too many marine releases will have been right all along... :eek:

Brother Captain Alec
15-10-2009, 07:53
Yes, absolutely. I myself was about to start converting and building new BA marines but when I saw this thread I stopped. We all know that the odds of getting an upgrade type of sprue are very high, so I'm holding out. If it doesn't happen, then at least having the codex in hand will give me enough motivation to finish them. Heck, I might even paint a few.

I unfortunately have built and painting almost an entire company so my normal marines won't look totally Blood angely:cries: If they don't make sprues I will just use them as veterans and make them all look awesome.

Eulenspiegel
15-10-2009, 08:28
Whether there is precedent or not.
GW sets new precedents in every edition. It´s the need of the codex author to make the new army "his own", putting a stamp on it. Or, more cynically, the need of GW to sell models even to people who already have a full army for that new codex.

Some of those "precedents" can be justified as recent developments:
Tyranids evolve new subspecies (like the Tyrant Guard, Lictors), Tau and Imperial Guard develop new wargear or variants on their stuff. The Thunderfire Cannon could be a fairly recent invention that has just been passed along from the Mechanicum ...

Some are clearly retcons:
Suddenly Space Wolves ride their pets, and it is implied that they always have. Blood Angels have such a high number of Assault Squads that they can field them as troops (i.e. the mainstay of their armies).

You know what, I can live with both. I like how my army changes. I remember cutting hands off my painted Blood Angels in 3rd edition and glueing on plastic plasma pistols, or ripping off whole sergeant arms in order to replace them with power fists.
I don´t just want a "Codex updated for recent edition", I want someting new - at least a bit.


Hopefully Blood Bloodson won't show up with his piggyback brigade.
So that was you who came up with this some time ago ... I hate you for it! ;):cool:
One thing I would absolutely HATE would be the flanderisation of Blood Angels into 40K vampires. And ridiculous mounts.

slingersam
15-10-2009, 09:32
Are their going to be any safe models to build, as I would like to get started on them while I wait. I was thinking maybe the rhinos and scouts are good idea but after that I'm not sure. I still need to buy my death company and my baal pred, are any of those safe buys now?

Now I have a personal question for all the Blood angel fanatics out their, how did you guys get interested in BA?

I got interested when I went to 48 hours at the Chicago battle bunker. I had won the Space Marine Omnibus in one of the raffle draws. A kid comes up to me and asks me to trade him for his BA Omnibus since he had it already at home, I was a bit reluctant at first but after a while I traded him. So I read the book, and I'm thinking Rafen is bad ass, and so is his brother Arkio. Arkio taking down the greater daemon with a chainsword I was like WOW, just utter destruction. I am making a unit of Rafens old squad.

Eulenspiegel
15-10-2009, 10:20
Are their going to be any safe models to build, as I would like to get started on them while I wait. I was thinking maybe the rhinos and scouts are good idea but after that I'm not sure. I still need to buy my death company and my baal pred, are any of those safe buys now?

The Baal Predator kit will almost surely not be altered at all.
As for everything else ... there WILL be a Blood Angels addon sprue (even if it´s just the customisation bitz on the Tactical / Assault sprue) that will be invaluable to BAify your marines.

If you like your marines basic or are content with the current Blood Angels bitz, then you can go ahead and build/paint some Tacical and Assault Marines, Rhinos, Land Speeders and bikes right away.

As for the characters, I´m almost sure Mephiston will get a revamp (hehe), and maybe even Dante and Corbulo´s models will be updated.

wilsongrahams
15-10-2009, 10:28
I agree that you may want to wait for the bulk of the infantry, but the baal predator at most will only get a plastic turret but won't change at all, just like when they updated the bikes, attack bikes and landspeeder.

If you like the Death company models, do what I did and build them as regular assault troops and wait and see if new ones are released later for death company - and you can keep the pads for plastics if you want too. The reason I'd say wait to build death company is we don't know what weapons, options and rules they will have.

My avatar is a death company marine painted as a blood angels trooper. In fact my tactical troops are the older metal death company just cos i want every model in my army to be BA all the way!

SideshowLucifer
15-10-2009, 10:38
Ok, what about giving the blood angles furious charge rmy wide and maybe one of thoses annoying rules like blood claws have that maes the marines want to assault rather then hold ground or shoot with a stipulation on how they must resist it? Would that not portray the feeling of a close combat army witout making assault marines troop choices? Add in characters who are good at assault and vehicles and wargear andpowers that can speed up getting into assault or increasing assault potential and you hav a very different army then the nilla marines.

AmasNagol
15-10-2009, 10:43
FC army wide would make BA far too expensive to be a competitive army. They work fine as they are now, they just need access to a second special weapon in the Tac Squads, or any special weapons in RAS squads. They don't need much else besides.

MajorWesJanson
15-10-2009, 10:56
FC army wide would make BA far too expensive to be a competitive army. They work fine as they are now, they just need access to a second special weapon in the Tac Squads, or any special weapons in RAS squads. They don't need much else besides.

Orks do it, and include a ton of attacks for very low price.

Baal pred will probably be replaced by a full plastic version (maybe a recut pred to include the option, or some plastic upgrade parts on a BA frame to convert it), as it is currently a hybrid kit, which is a bad thing these days. Only a few left to go to be rid of them all. Some tau suits, Fire prisms, Baal preds, and I think the Exorcist.

AmasNagol
15-10-2009, 11:20
Orks ha I 2 and soggy toilet paper for armour.

Karhedron
15-10-2009, 11:44
The Thunderfire Cannon could be a fairly recent invention that has just been passed along from the Mechanicum ...

Nah, the Thunderfire is just a pimped-up Thudd gun (Space Marines are trying to hide the fact they still buy their light artillery from the Squats). :D Now where is my quad-barrelled Rapier multi-laser?


Now I have a personal question for all the Blood angel fanatics out their, how did you guys get interested in BA?

WD 139. I was just getting into 40K and space Marines and I saw these beautifully painted orange/red models. The regaulr Marines were nice but it was the Terminator squad that captured my imagination. I have been trying to emulate that level of painting ever since.

I have managed to get pretty close now although I think that NMM will forever be beyond me.

Darnok
15-10-2009, 12:02
WD 139. I was just getting into 40K and space Marines and I saw these beautifully painted orange/red models. The regaulr Marines were nice but it was the Terminator squad that captured my imagination.

Was that the one with the battle report shortly after 40K 3rd Ed. came out? That one against Eldar? A true classic that was... ah, memories. :D

I think I liked them ever since then too.

Karhedron
15-10-2009, 12:04
Was that the one with the battle report shortly after 40K 3rd Ed. came out? That one against Eldar? A true classic that was... ah, memories. :D

I think I liked them ever since then too.

No, much earlier than that. The start of third edition battle was around the start of 1999. WD 139 came out about 10 years earlier in the middle of 1st edition.

I can remember the early batreps for Blood Angels in 1st, 2nd and 3rd ed. ;)

pookie
15-10-2009, 12:11
Was that the one with the battle report shortly after 40K 3rd Ed. came out? That one against Eldar? A true classic that was... ah, memories. :D

I think I liked them ever since then too.

nope, WD 139 was prior to 2nd edition! ( the BA Battle Report you maybe thinking is 141 - BA v Alotic Eldar, although still before 2nd edition - there was also BA v Biel Tan too, where they fought over a wrecked Chimera in 2nd edition )

funny because i only just had another read through that edition, which is pretty much dedicated to Space Fleet! very nice articale on the BA too.

although it was the BA TAc sqd that first got me into them, tho in those days i also had a UM Dev Sqd and a LR painted in IG Colours :eek:

SideshowLucifer
15-10-2009, 12:51
...back in the days when the only difference int he Chapters where the colors you painted them.
I remember Blood Angles from my first time encountering Mephiston. He was my favorite character for a very long time. BA's have always been my scond favorite chapter just because they had such a trial they constantly had to overcome in the Thirst.
I honstly believe balancing a mechanic for the Thirst that included the desire to charge in for better or for worse and a very brutal close combat mechanic like Furious Charge would make the Chapter feel more like then BA's I know and love.

Bazzmundo
15-10-2009, 13:02
Second edition boxed set for me.

Darnok
15-10-2009, 13:21
No, much earlier than that. The start of third edition battle was around the start of 1999. WD 139 came out about 10 years earlier in the middle of 1st edition.

Nice. :D

Well, I'm highly unfamiliar with the WD UK numbers.

MajorWesJanson
15-10-2009, 13:29
Orks ha I 2 and soggy toilet paper for armour.

True, but they can buy nearly 3 orks for the cost of one marine :D

The SkaerKrow
15-10-2009, 13:40
Now I have a personal question for all the Blood angel fanatics out their, how did you guys get interested in BA?Interested in Blood Angels: I originally took note of them back in 2nd Edition thanks for my fondness for vampiric things. Later, reading about the history of Sanguinius and his exploits during the Heresy did a significant job of capturing my imagination (and making all of the other Primarchs look like lollygagging pansies ;)).

Playing Blood Angels: Free PDF Codex does wonders for a gamer on a tight budget.

pookie
15-10-2009, 13:48
Nice. :D

Well, I'm highly unfamiliar with the WD UK numbers.

i know the one you mean, fought around a oil plant? had the BA devs doing more moving than shooting in that game, and didnt the DC have 11 members, so couldnt fit into there free Rhino?

ThePope
15-10-2009, 13:49
Second edition boxed set for me.

Word, with those horrible horrible static mini's but it had a bloody cool box cover!

Darnok
15-10-2009, 13:55
i know the one you mean, fought around a oil plant? had the BA devs doing more moving than shooting in that game, and didnt the DC have 11 members, so couldnt fit into there free Rhino?

Yup, that's the one. Gordon Davidsons BA against the Eldar of John-Paul Brisigotti (pictured with a sign saying "Hello Mum" :D). That battle report was a good one, and both armies were quite impressive, the Eldar even more than the BA.

pookie
15-10-2009, 14:02
Yup, that's the one. Gordon Davidsons BA against the Eldar of John-Paul Brisigotti (pictured with a sign saying "Hello Mum" :D). That battle report was a good one, and both armies were quite impressive, the Eldar even more than the BA.

well yep, that one deff was 3rd edition.

aka_mythos
15-10-2009, 14:22
Turbochargers as an upgrade on all rhino chassis vehicles.
...
For characters, probably the current ones redone, plus one to three more, including a terminator character as a tie-in to Space Hulk
Maybe one of the characters from Space Hulk itself, converting the plastic character in question to a metal character model.
I think Turbochargers will end up as built-in on a slightly more expensive rhino chassis. GW has move towards just including "everyone takes it" upgrades to the basic profiles. I never knew any BA player not to slap on Turbochargers, and if they did I'd wonder why the BA would go to the effort of equiping so many vehicles with turbocharged engines just to leave one undone.

I think Lemartes, is the only character that needs to be redone, while the others do show their age and would benefit from a redo, Lemartes is just a poor sculpt.

GW has never really liked the idea of tie-ins to other games or books. They've really only tried it once and that was the Last Chancers, they were never happy with them. I don't see them doing a Terminator character or anything that ties back to Space Hulk. A lot of people assume that just because blood angels were featured in this edition of space hulk and got some awesome miniatures, that GW will want do again, what was already done. GW design studio are far more likely to say, "Blood Angel terminators, thats been done, if you want that play space hulk."

Frgt/10
15-10-2009, 14:39
I don't see them doing a Terminator character or anything that ties back to Space Hulk. A lot of people assume that just because blood angels were featured in this edition of space hulk and got some awesome miniatures, that GW will want do again, what was already done. GW design studio are far more likely to say, "Blood Angel terminators, thats been done, if you want that play space hulk."

given that the librarian in space hulk went on to become mephiston i can see them doing a character to tie in with it actually ;)

Karhedron
15-10-2009, 15:46
I am seriously hoping for some Termie models that combine the detailed lovliness of the Space Hulk models with the flexibility and customization of the new Wolf Guard. After, Marines are GWs golden boys and I am sure they would ont miss out the chance to give them another new plastic kit.

Or am I raising my hopes too much? :angel:

megatrons2nd
15-10-2009, 17:18
Has anyone figured out what the other half of the story is? I was curious and don't have the time to go through 10 pages of should they get or not get jump troops as a troops choice.

Fobster
15-10-2009, 17:24
On a different note does anyone know the writer of the codex?

Furthermore i remember reading somewhere that the BA hold in the dugeons of their keep on Baal some of their brothers that have fully succumbed to the red thirst but they haven't died, of course they are little more than ravening beasts but imagine how cool it would be to see a squad like this on the field.
They are essentially fully fledged beast vampires maybe kinda like the vargulf from fantasy ( i don't mean in apperance) i hope they expand more on them.

Finally don't get me wrong i like BA i get that they should be portrayed as tragic doomed heroes fighting against themselves as well against the enemies of man but what i really wanna is their monstrous side fleshed out and represented more on the tt, i really wanna see a truly monstrous special character ala vampire counts and some monstrous and unsual new units.

Mephiston originally had the exact same profile as a vampire from fantasy in 2nd. As well as the vampire ability of hypnotic gaze and hunger, meaning he had to take a leadership test after killing someone or spend a turn feeding.

Hypnotic gaze would make a good psychic power, working something like lash but balanced. Angelic flight, movement boost. Blood rage, grants the squad an extra attack.

Sinisterfence
15-10-2009, 17:50
I think your hopes are raised way too much :D
I highly doubt we'll get BA specific terminators, they can be done fine with shoulder pads and dangly accessories/ banner tops, which we'll no doubt get plenty of!
I can see them doing a tactical box with terminator pads, 10 shoulder pads with winged blood drops, maybe 10 with X's for DC, not sure about the company pads like how SW got enough parts for full squads as not all companies have the single blood drop...
pretty sure we'll definitely get what all BA players have always wanted... chest pieces with blood drop shaped jewels! and probably a jump pack or 2 for commanders...
as for characters, the Lemartes sculpt is terrible... for an aesthetically proud chapter their named Chaplain looks crap! The only other character I feel needs a resculpt is Dante, purely because he's tiny! Tycho's dead, Mephiston's perfect in my opinion and would only be ruined by a resculpt, and Corbulo's pretty darn nice

Dangersaurus
15-10-2009, 18:37
Tycho's dead

Only very "late" in the fluff. There are other special characters who are dead (Eldrad) or too old to fight (Harker) as of 999.M41 in current codices.

tcraigen
15-10-2009, 19:25
I don't know about everyone but I was thinking the other day how I'd love to see an interesting twist in this next codex. Since this isnt a rumour thread anymore Im going to voice my interest. I hope they try and give some thing new and different like they did with the marine dex and the two vet squads. They clearly are the result of evolution of the old vet squad and the heavy upgrades they were aloud. I want to see something in character with the chapter but a curve ball in choices, heck it could be a character that changes your selection style, like allows tactical marines jump packs if they have no heavy. Think of a highly mobile objective scoring unit that can lay down ranged weapons fire. Not mind blowing or out of character, just a newly developed tactic. It would be a good option since at the moment they seem to want BA to have Elite scouts. I would just like like the possibilit for a new style of combat, like when they introduced drop pod deployment. Rather then headlong charges with jump troops directly at the enemy for assault maybe itd force you to rapidly move towards objectives to then try and defend them.

I would love to see interesting weapons variations as well, while the Blood Angels books seem to be loathed by many it did have the odd interesting idea, like the Telestro spear. What if the Company Champion carried a spear, change the title to avartar of sanguinis or some such title and make him similar to the Emperors champion to the templars. The old chaplain banner depicted a winged skeliton with a spear if I remember correctly so why not?

I hope that in the plastics upgrade kits we get a unique BA head, templars have knight like helmets, DA got robed heads and winged helms, Ultras have those cool eagle face plates on the honour guard, give BA something cool; a death mask, used to be an opton why not bring it back, could be a skull face, but a masked head like the old BA comander(model Tycho was based on)/ or dante's head or even tycho's gead would be awesome. I would love to have a head like the lepper Prince from the Movie Kingdome of Heaven. A beautiul emotionless face mask with a blood drop tear would be behond cool. And since the recent them in space hulk was to give them the kind of tussled wavy hair I hope to see a head like that on the sprue as well. A muscle styled torsoe and legs would be cool but not necesary.

Also a Mephiston styled power sword, like they used in space hulk is a cool new feature, I think it would be cool to see that in there.

I'd love to see Moriar come back he was a cool idea. But a cool other option for armoured charcter would be a speeder chariot like the artwork of the heresy art books had.

They had better have a plastic furioso arm in a box some where thats all I can say

Sgt John Keel
15-10-2009, 20:06
Veteran Assault Squads are not Assault Squads. They are separate Codex entries, which is why I specifically said Assault Marines, not Jump Packs. ;)

Yes, Blood Angels have Veteran Assault Marines, but thay are Elite choices, whereas Assault Marines are currently Troops Choices. IMO, simply having Veteran Assault Marines indicated the Blood Angels predeliction for close combat without making regular Assault Marines Troops. If it is simply meant to be a matter of being a scoring unit, it's easy enough to add a special rule saying one or the other is a Scoring Unit.

The basic unit of Blood Angels armies should be the Tactical Squad.

Certainly, I just don't think it's as clear cut in the fluff as it is in the rules. Veteran Assaults Marines are probably used for the same missions as regular Assault Marines. I also believe that Assault Marines shouldn't be troops, they are, after all, a Codex chapter. Tactical Marines are the mainstay. Edit: And goddamit, no CCW + BP combo.




Possibly the 3rd edition Codex justifying the existance of generic SHPs, possibly it means multiple SHPs through the ages (I'll check when I get home). Now my copy of AoD was stolen years ago, so I can't be sure, but I'm fairly certain Corbulo was the only SHP. There certainly wasn't a generic entry.

Particularly page 17 leaves no room for a temporal collection of the High Priests, in my opinion.


To my way of thinking, you can only have one "High" Priest, can't you

Depends. There are many bishops and cardinals in the Catholic Church. One could see the Angel as the highest in rank in the cult sanguine.

HsojVvad
15-10-2009, 20:38
Has anyone figured out what the other half of the story is? I was curious and don't have the time to go through 10 pages of should they get or not get jump troops as a troops choice.

Nobody has yet. Actually it isn't even been brought up much. It's all wishlisting in here right now.

Rioghan Murchadha
15-10-2009, 22:21
This is nonsense.
Blood Angels are very different to the standard marine codex.
Baal predators, Rhino's with overcharged engines, Death Company, special characters furioso dreadnought, Assaultmarines as troops.

Your point is? Thousand Sons are 'even more extra specially very different' from a standard chaos marine army. Every person in the legion is either a soulbound suit of empty armour, or a powerful sorcerer. Sorry, that's a hell of a lot more unique than pimped rhinos, a unit of crazies, and a dreadnought with an extra claw.

Where's my standalone codex? Hell, where's my .pdf?

Cognitave
15-10-2009, 22:22
Your point is? Thousand Sons are 'even more extra specially very different' from a standard chaos marine army. Every person in the legion is either a soulbound suit of empty armour, or a powerful sorcerer. Sorry, that's a hell of a lot more unique than pimped rhinos, a unit of crazies, and a dreadnought with an extra claw.

Where's my standalone codex? Hell, where's my .pdf?

Seriously. We get it. The Chaos Codex sucks. Can we get on with our lives now?

Rioghan Murchadha
15-10-2009, 23:59
Seriously. We get it. The Chaos Codex sucks. Can we get on with our lives now?

Only if the players of 'slightly different marines who paint their armour a different colour' stop whining and insisting that they're such special unique little snowflakes that they just absolutely must have their own codex or else they'll go cut themselves in the washroom at Hot Topic.

Dexter099
16-10-2009, 00:14
These rumors seem like they could have easily been made up. The 'rumors' that were stated as essentially cut and paste rules from the Space Wolf Codex.

The rest of the rumors were pretty general and non-descript.

And as for the poster claiming that they were in a foreign language, it doesn't seem very likely considering certain levels of detail he got from them. Try translating 'number of attacks equal to number of models in base to base' from Italian. That's really hard, compared to the other things that could have easily been discerned from the codex.

Methinks that this is just as phony as the wishlisting for a new race thread that we had on here.

We'll see.

Marshal2Crusaders
16-10-2009, 00:35
Personally, I would love it if the gave the Blood Angels some of those Mk. II heads you see in the HH artbooks. Those things are sexy to the maxx.

I don't think that we will see any characters riding bats, but I am worried that several character may sprout angel wings....

Emeraldw
16-10-2009, 01:31
Personally, I would love it if the gave the Blood Angels some of those Mk. II heads you see in the HH artbooks. Those things are sexy to the maxx.

I don't think that we will see any characters riding bats, but I am worried that several character may sprout BAT wings....


Fixed that for you :D

Seriously though, why not? Play up the vampiric theme a little (a little) could be fun!

Karhedron
16-10-2009, 09:19
I don't think that we will see any characters riding bats, but I am worried that several character may sprout angel wings....

I could see that actually. How about using pre-heresy Raptor-style jump packs but instead of being curropte to look like tattered wings they look like angel wings instead?

OK, probably getting carried away there. ;)

slingersam
16-10-2009, 09:33
Personally, I would love it if the gave the Blood Angels some of those Mk. II heads you see in the HH artbooks. Those things are sexy to the maxx.

I don't think that we will see any characters riding bats, but I am worried that several character may sprout angel wings....

HERE COMES ARKIO, and maybe Rafen ( but he only had them for a short time.) Honestly I do hope we get at least Rafen as a SC.

Doomseer
16-10-2009, 09:44
I can't really see that much will change to be honest. We'll get some resculpts, maybe a boxset or two and an upgrade sprue but beyond that the current Marine range is pretty complete and easily customisable. With this in mind, how many of us would be completely blown away to discover that the Blood Angels are the other half of the Tyranid release?

Yeah I know, dream on!:D

WookieeGunner
17-10-2009, 04:27
Now that this isn't a rumor thread I thought I would post a stray thought I had. I remember that GW's official word on Space Hulk was that it was a side project that one or more staff built. Now I don't know about you guys but it would make a lot more sense to me if SH was a side project that the models were conversions of prototypes laying around than if they were all new sculpts, so maybe there is a chance for the SH models after all or at least a slightly less nice version (for example maybe it doesn't actually hold tyranid pieces).

Urath
17-10-2009, 20:32
Certainly, I just don't think it's as clear cut in the fluff as it is in the rules. Veteran Assaults Marines are probably used for the same missions as regular Assault Marines. I also believe that Assault Marines shouldn't be troops, they are, after all, a Codex chapter. Tactical Marines are the mainstay. Edit: And goddamit, no CCW + BP combo.

I think you seem to be confusing fielding Marines in a company system, for adhering totally to a Codex.

Yeah, they're a Codex chapter with unique command positions, unique vehicle/walker variants*, the Death Company, customised Rhinos, squads comprised soley of Veterans of Assault*, unique philosophies and their general tactics and strategic planning revolve around an assault.

Their tactics are not Codex, because they will always play to their strengths and engage at close range whenever possible. This is why they have Rhinos customised with overcharged engines and they developed the CC Dreadnought.

They should have Assault Squads as troops or give Tactical Marines the option to take close combat weapons instead of bolters, giving them a USR like Counter Attack; Tactical Assault Squads, if you will. Remove the option for heavy weapons and give them two assault weapons, or the option for two power weapons, like a power sword or power fist, without the option for Jump Packs. Keep those for the Elites and a seperate Fast Attack entry. Space Wolves have Blood Claws, why shouldn't the Blood Angels have something akin in Troops?

So, in this, you have Tactical Assault Squads, Veteran Assault Squads, Assault Squads and the Devestators have the heavy ranged firepower. The Blood Angels still have Tactical Marines for troops, with the option for bolters or cc weapons, but with the focus on close range attack. But, Assault Marines are not made redundant via their ability to take Jump Packs and Plasma Pistols.

Elites:
Veteran Assault Squad

Troops:
Tactical Assault Squad

Fast Attack:
Assault Squad

As such, it may be that a return to the old codex may be needed. As in, "Blood Angel" units, so Captains, Space Marines, Terminators etc, benefit from the Counter Attack and Red Thirst special rules.

That was just an example, but it would bring all the other units down into the primarily, but with the ranged support options, CC theme of the army, like Terminators.

I am, as many are, worried that ridiculous bat riding units and the like will be implemented.

*Vanguards and the Ironclad were ripped straight out of Codex Blood Angels, Veteran Assault Squads and the Furioso.


Your point is? Thousand Sons are 'even more extra specially very different' from a standard chaos marine army. Every person in the legion is either a soulbound suit of empty armour, or a powerful sorcerer. Sorry, that's a hell of a lot more unique than pimped rhinos, a unit of crazies, and a dreadnought with an extra claw.

Where's my standalone codex? Hell, where's my .pdf?

Only if the players of 'slightly different marines who paint their armour a different colour' stop whining and insisting that they're such special unique little snowflakes that they just absolutely must have their own codex or else they'll go cut themselves in the washroom at Hot Topic.

Haha, Hot Topic makes me laugh.

But yeah, I get your point (as a Chaos player myself) but they're going to get a Codex anyway, it may as well be done to the best standard, with enough unique stuff to actually warrant it.

Unlike the current Dark Angel codex which, tbh, should never have existed.

wilsongrahams
17-10-2009, 20:32
Hey, just wanted to say that the BA Codex has been delayed by a couple months according to a chat with a store manager friday morning. Whilst discussing internet and it's unreliability he pointed out that my 'march-april' date was out cos it didn't incorporate 'the couple month put back on all releases' as he put it. I'd say probably a may to june release date, however his comment was almost a certain that the codex is coming out just that it isn't accurate when.

massey
17-10-2009, 21:20
We already know it's coming out, per Brimstone and Harry. So it's as dead set certain as it gets that they're coming out. Forgive me for not believing some generic store manager, but there's been no mention of a "two or three month delay" that anyone has heard so far.

Juggalo
17-10-2009, 21:21
Your point is? Thousand Sons are 'even more extra specially very different' from a standard chaos marine army. Every person in the legion is either a soulbound suit of empty armour, or a powerful sorcerer. Sorry, that's a hell of a lot more unique than pimped rhinos, a unit of crazies, and a dreadnought with an extra claw.

Where's my standalone codex? Hell, where's my .pdf?
While I'm no fan of the current Chaos codex, you could say the current rules let you represent just that. A 4++ save and Slow&Purposeful is a good way to represent soulbound suits of empty armor, and all the characters and unit leaders are sorcerers. Pick up some Defilers and Obliterators to represent various 'sorcerous experiments with weapons gone wrong' and voila, Tzeench army. :P

Anyway, I think every chapter has their own combat doctrine preferences (black templar), secret rituals (dark angels), and hidden agendas (blood ravens), but as far as we know, only the Space Wolves openly sneer at the Codex Astartes (and open fire at Ecclesiarchy delegations, haha), and even they follow the same rough guidelines in their combat organization.

Blood Angels have a few variations on standard equipment, but they are still very much a Codex chapter. That said, there is no reason why GW can't follow the current trend of tying different army configurations to special characters. For example, if you take Dante, now Veteran Assault Squads can be taken as troops. If you take Lemartes, Death Company is cheaper. Et al.

They can already take regular Assault Squads as troops. What's the problem here?

TimLeeson
17-10-2009, 21:22
well, they could do with the update really.

so far, visually they are the least interesting chapter thath as its own codex...dark angels have the robes and gothic imagery, wolves have the tribal/wolf thing going on and black templars have the whole knights templar imagery...blood angels just have red and some black marines with blood-drop symbols and little else. Very visually boring.

Mephiston and dante however are great, and id like to see them take imagery from those two figures...more of the greek imagery from generic BA's, the mephiston look would work for death company ect. If they get that kind of stuff im sure they could be a cool chapter!