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Tokugawa100
13-10-2009, 09:09
Hi all.
Its just a hypothetical question but if one day in the past whoever created the Space Marine idea did not think of it, Space Marines would not exist.
Now my question is if Space Marines did not exist which would probably mean the end of Chaos Marines as well, if they didnt exist who would be the top army.
We'd be kidding ourselves if we said Marines are not the poster boys of GW but I would like to know who would be the potential poster boy army if Marines didnt exist.
I personally think Imperial Guard.
Simply because, they are human, they have human emotions and they are the underdog.
What do you think.
Could it be Orks, Eldar, Tyranids or would GW not even exist due to poor sales.

Tringsh
13-10-2009, 09:20
I would agree with you there it would probably be some human substitute. However it would be inevitable that some form of space marine would come about.

genestealer_baldric
13-10-2009, 09:27
there will allways be some form of human due to customers identifying with them. And SM can be poster boys for all the hate they have to edure and my races can get along quite hapily.

Arakanis
13-10-2009, 09:37
Could it be Orks, Eldar, Tyranids or would GW not even exist due to poor sales.
You know, because in WHFB, Orcs, High Elves and Skaven don't exist either.

Squallish
13-10-2009, 10:28
You read that too fast, Arakanis.

It would be a human equivalent race, in this case Imperial Guard. People identify with humanity.. even in corrupt or zealous formats. Terran was the most played race in StarCraft. Human is one of the top races in World of Warcraft and other MMOs. Essentially, people like to play as heroes saving the "Earth". I personally do not like being human in everything.. as I play a human in real life and use games to escape to something I'm not.

Arakanis
13-10-2009, 10:37
You read that too fast, Arakanis.
I don't think so my fellow Seer. Observe:
Tokugawa posits that the absence of the Space Marines as an army in Warhammer 40,000 would mean that Eldar, Orkz and Tyranids would sell so poorly they would no longer have supported army lists or model ranges.

However, one can clearly look at the game known as Warhammer Fantasy Battle which has no Space Marines, or even a Space Marine analogue (Though rules-wise, you might be able to argue Bretonnians. Still, they're just better equipped humans in the background) to see that Elves, Orcs and Skaven (closest thing I could think of to Tyranids) exist quite well and even sell decently on their own without the existence of 5 different Ubermensch army lists.

Without Space Marines, 40,000 might be a very different beast, but I think you'd find that humans would be the heroes and that they would be opposed by the forces of Chaos, the real difference would be in the art work. And Imperial Guard would be teh ubers.

Narf
13-10-2009, 10:47
[quote] Could it be Orks, Eldar, Tyranids or would GW not even exist due to poor sales.[quote]

without space marines GW wouldnt have the money to support 3 core games and thosands of minitures, i think SM give GW somthing like 40-50% of there gross income per year, meaning that if one model range does that, and its a relativly elite model range at that, then there would unlikly be a GW without them - i think thats what he ment, and that WHFB wouldnt exist as GW would either not have the money to support it, or GW itself wouldnt exist.

thats right kids Space marines make WHFB possible ;)

Arakanis
13-10-2009, 10:52
without space marines GW wouldnt have the money to support 3 core games and thosands of minitures, i think SM give GW somthing like 40-50% of there gross income per year, meaning that if one model range does that, and its a relativly elite model range at that, then there would unlikly be a GW without them - i think thats what he ment, and that WHFB wouldnt exist

Think back to the 80s and the early 90s.

What other company made such badass miniatures and such a cool game? I can't think of one. If Space Marines didn't exist, they'd still have a following.

Surprisingly, for a long, long time, GW wasn't targetting little kids with rich parents. They were selling almost exclusively to wargaming fanatics. And guess what? Wargamers are going to spend their money on wargaming Space Marines or no.

Narf
13-10-2009, 10:57
and back in the 80's they barely had a working game (WHFB) and marines appeared in 1987.

Most people joined playing space crusade , space hulk, or warhammer quest

the minitures were good for the period in time, but have come on vastly since then due to large cash injections, from there flagship models.

anyway im not here to argue if GW would have existed but to point out things would be different without space marines

any i think that guard would probably be the good guys and top army, kinda starship troopers style ;)

Arakanis
13-10-2009, 11:05
and back in the 80's they barely had a working game (WHFB) and marines appeared in 1987.
Yes. Actually, 40k wouldn't even have existed or survived if WHFB hadn't been doing well enough. There's a reason that 40k shared a lot of the same rules, and was basically WHFB in space.



Most people joined playing space crusade , space hulk, or warhammer quest
Yes. And Space Crusade would be about the Imperial Army versus the Chaos Traitors and Space Hulk would be about an Imperial Army killteam versus the Genestealers, In Space No One Can Hear You Scream. etc




the minitures were good for the period in time, but have come on vastly since then due to large cash injections, from there flagship models.
Which would have been something else if there were No Space Marines. (Probably Imperial Guard)



anyway im not here to argue if GW would have existed but to point out things would be different without space marines
yes. but only in the sense that there would be no Space Marines.



any i think that guard would probably be the good guys and top army, kinda starship troopers style ;) It's funny that you say that, because Starship Troopers is what inspired Space Marines in the first place. The origin of Power Armor and all. Anyways, yes. Imperial Guard would be the good guys, the poster boys and probably the cash cows too.

The Anarchist
13-10-2009, 11:10
i expect here would have been soem sort of Ad-Mech army, including things like knights walkers and such to appeal to the kids. alternativly something like a storm trooper legion amry dosn't sound unlikley if there ahd never been space marines.

this topic does spark in me the idea of a story written in 40k but with divergent history of what if following the HH most space marines had been killed, leaving the entire 40k universe with less than a thousand Marines....

Corrode
13-10-2009, 11:11
I don't imagine Guard would be in the same position as Marines. Marines have a certain appeal which the Guard simply lacks - the super-super-human aspect, the relatively elite feel, the bright and easy-to-paint colours, the solid 4 statline. There's no Guard equivalent to that - unless you make it all about the Stormtroopers (and even then they're not really MEQ).

The more likely situation is that there would be armies who were more popular and armies which were less popular, much like in WHFB (Empire are analogous to the Imperial Guard, and even though they're popular they're not OMGSPESSMEHREENZ popular). I also think it would be likely that a lower number of people overall would be playing - even if you simply discount the 50% Marine sales figure as 'well they would have gamed anyway', how many of them are kids who only play Marines because SPESS MEHREENZ ARE TEH BESTEST, or people for whom the only appeal is Marines? I imagine there's a fair number who'd turn their noses up at painting their 5th Guard platoon to get to 100pts of plastic blokes.

Arakanis
13-10-2009, 11:33
I don't imagine Guard would be in the same position as Marines. Marines have a certain appeal which the Guard simply lacks - the super-super-human aspect, the relatively elite feel, the bright and easy-to-paint colours, the solid 4 statline. There's no Guard equivalent to that - unless you make it all about the Stormtroopers (and even then they're not really MEQ).
Well, there would probably be something that takes the place of an Elite Imperium army, it wouldn't be super-humans, but maybe Admech as the guy above suggested or something else entirely.



The more likely situation is that there would be armies who were more popular and armies which were less popular, much like in WHFB (Empire are analogous to the Imperial Guard, and even though they're popular they're not OMGSPESSMEHREENZ popular). I also think it would be likely that a lower number of people overall would be playing - even if you simply discount the 50% Marine sales figure as 'well they would have gamed anyway', how many of them are kids who only play Marines because SPESS MEHREENZ ARE TEH BESTEST, or people for whom the only appeal is Marines? I imagine there's a fair number who'd turn their noses up at painting their 5th Guard platoon to get to 100pts of plastic blokes.
Well, here's the thing. I actually know a couple people who I tried to get into 40k, and when they saw the trend of SPESS MEHREEZN ARE TEH BESTEST AN ULTAASMURFS IS TEH BESTEST BESTEST they said "Ugh. No thanks. I want to play a game where MY army gets equal attention as everyone else." and promptly went to play FoW and Warmachine. I think even though Space Marines DO sell great to the tykes A) it's a short term thing, they get bored and stop buying (they are kids after all) and B) if they focused on promoting OTHER factions, those might sell TOO! *gasp*

I don't think Space Marines sell well and so they are promoted, I think they are promoted and thus sell well. Case in point: The Background is such that Space Marine are the winners. Kids want to win. Erego, they play the winners (Space Marines)

loveless
13-10-2009, 15:23
Look at it this way.

Back when 40K was young, it came about due to the success of Fantasy - Fantasy settings were huge back in the 80s. Fantasy cared for 40K until 40K was strong enough to care for itself.

Now we come to this century, where science fiction seems to be the preferred fictional universe of choice. 40K is now striving and cares for Fantasy, which can get along fine on its own, but still benefits from the help its "son" provides.

It's the basic parent-child relationship - they raise you when you're young, you help them out when they start getting elderly. :p

----

On topic - If Marines were gone, the Imperial Guard would be the primary faction. As has been said, the humans always win out in overall popularity contests.

The better question would be - what if the primary event of the 40K storyline was not the Horus Heresy, but the Fall of the Eldar? What if the stories were all told from the Eldar point of view? Would Marines still be the top seller?

Of course not - change the "main character" and you change the popularity balance.

The Orange
13-10-2009, 15:38
Completely agree with you Tokugawa100, without SM the focus of 40k would no doubt be on the IG simply because their human. The 40k universe (somewhat sadly) is focused primarily on the human struggle with all the other races providing a backdrop.

TheOverlord
13-10-2009, 15:45
On topic - If Marines were gone, the Imperial Guard would be the primary faction. As has been said, the humans always win out in overall popularity contests.

Unless said race were humongous, muscular, barely clad man-wolves of awesome :D

Sorry off topic.

If you hadn't guessed it by now I mean Wulfen.