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Karhedron
13-10-2009, 10:32
OK, this thread will probably turn into blatant wishlisting but what the heck. :)

The rumours thread suggests that Eldar are in line for a revamp, probably the next codex or next but 1 after Blood Angels. So I thought I would have a thought about what I would like to see from a Eldar release both in terms of models and rules.

Eldar have always been my favourite army in 40K, ever since WD 127 and I have played with every incarnation since. The current codex is pretty good on the whole so I imagine this will be a revamp rather than a reboot. Here are some of my thoughts on rules that could do with a buff.

Falcons: The best vehicle in the codex in 4th edition became the worst in 5th due to changes in defensive weapons and glancing rules. It used to be a decent transport and a fearsome gunboat and was costed appropriately. Now it is a poorer transport than a Serpent and a poorer gunboat than the Fire Prism. I don't think that the rules need changing much but I would like to see the points reduced a bit to make it competative against the other tanks in the codex. Cheaper secondary weapons would be a good start since you have to move below 6" to fire any of them (apart from the missile launcher with plasma rounds).

Swooping Hawks: These guys are still an Aspect looking for a role. As anti-infantry shooters they are not as good as Dire Avengers in most cases and as tank-killers they struggle to compete with Fire Dragons. I think these guys need a rules tweak to allow them to use their grenade packs in some way in the normal shooting phase. The current rules are disappointing and lead to silly tricks like yo-yo Hawks which I am sure was not what the designers had in mind.

Phoenix Lords: I have never fielded one in 4th edition and I can't imagine doing so either. They are quite pricey and just struggle to compete options like Farseers, Autarchs and Avatars who enhance the rest of the army rather than just being powerhouses in their own right. One idea I like is to allow them to count their own Aspect as Troops if you take them (or at least as Scoring). This would go a long way to making them useful in an army as you can suddenly field aspect-themed armies.

Support Weapons: Again these rarely seem to be taken. The problem is that they compete for valuable HS slots against Wraithlords and tanks but lack their hitting power or speed. Vibro-cannons have been neutered by the changes to glancing hits. D-cannons are deadly but a bit too short-ranged. Spinners lack the punch to do real damage. Either reduce their costs or make them an add-on for Guardian units so that they are not in competition against superior Heavy options.

Vypers: Another vehicle that suffered in the switch to 5th edition. They are now too fragile and expensive for regular use. My suggestion would be to either reduce the cost or give them Av11 on the front. This would make them a bit tougher against basic weapons and mean that the enemy would need to at least dedicate heavy bolter equivelents to threatening them.

Farseers: With the recent power creep in psychic abilities, I think Farseers could do with a buff. Nothing major but maybe increasing the range of their powers slightly. At the moment you tend to end up with Eldar armies huddled around their Farseer who doles out bonuses rather than moving to engage the enemy. Give all powers and extra 6" range and I think we would be good to go.




OK I think that covers rules. Most of the other units are pretty solid and competative IMHO. Now I am considerng which models I woudl really like to see done or redone.

Jetbikes: The only 1st edition model left in the range. We have seen Jes Goodwin's concept sculpt of a very cool new Jetbike. Please just make this with riders to match the current Guardians and the job will be done. Upgrade Shining Spears to match.

Wraithguard: I would love to see these guys done in plastic. It would also be really cool to see a close combat version. These have been mentioned in the fluff but not yet developed. Give them Wraithblades like their big brothers. At the moment fielding a squad of 10 Wraithguard may be expensive in points but is physically hurts the wallet. :cries:

Seers: A kit for plastic Farseers and Warlocks would be fantastic. GW have shown they are good at plastic robes now so no reason why this should not be possible. It would also make building Jetlock councils much easier. :D



That somes up my ideas for a new codex. What do other people think?

Please try to keep ideas balanced and reasonable (no calls for Assault Ramps on Wave Serpents). ;)

Arakanis
13-10-2009, 10:57
The one thing that would fix a lot for me, is the concept that Eldar have to be fragile.

Bring back powerful IC exarchs, T4 Seers, survivable falcons, etc.

I guess I'd like something closer to the 2nd edition version of Eldar.
(Yes, I know a lot of people think it was overpowered. I don't care, everyone seems to get powerful rules now.)

Plebian
13-10-2009, 10:57
What rumours?

I personally (Eldar is my main army) think our codex is fine the way it is. There are at least half a dozen armies who need a revision more than us.

Karhedron
13-10-2009, 11:15
What rumours?

Someone dropped into the BA rumour thread to imply Eldar are actively being worked on and should be out fairly soon after Blood Angels.

No idea if it is true (traditional pinch of sodium chloride ;)) but it got me thinking. Eldar are not in need of a major update the way some armies are. On the other hand, this could work in their favour. A smattering of new models and some tweaking of the rules to update them to 5th edition and tey are good to go.

Karhedron
13-10-2009, 11:17
Bring back powerful IC exarchs, T4 Seers, survivable falcons, etc.
For a T4 Seer we do at least have Eldrad. IC Exarchs might be a bit over the top but I would like to see a 2-wound Autarch for smaller engagements. A Demiarch perhaps?

Tymell
13-10-2009, 11:25
The rumours thread suggests that Eldar are in line for a revamp, probably the next codex or next but 1 after Blood Angels.

They are? :confused: I hadn't seen, and it would surprise me a lot: the last Eldar update wasn't that long ago, and there are other races needing it more.

Arakanis
13-10-2009, 11:25
For a T4 Seer we do at least have Eldrad. IC Exarchs might be a bit over the top but I would like to see a 2-wound Autarch for smaller engagements. A Demiarch perhaps?

I don't think that Autarchs should even have three wounds. They should act more as commanders and advisers, perhaps leading the battle, but they really shouldn't be dueling against enemy heroes and such. That's what Exarchs are for.

genestealer_baldric
13-10-2009, 11:27
Almost every army is being "worked on" i would take that rumour with a side order of salt there are many more armys that infos being given out for so i would expect to see them for at least 2 years.

but glancing has made your tanks more surviable and dont destoyed as oftern.

but back to topic yeah i would like the phonix lords to be alot cheaper etc. but iam not sure i can see them being as resilent as orks and marines though.

i want a contuination of phsyic levels beacause if every army gets more powerfull powers i must just as well play fantsay they dont kid them selfs and call it the magic phase. yes the Sw ones were a glaring mistake.

Sorros
13-10-2009, 11:40
Make Guardians' shuriken catapults make sense...close range assault weapons with a group of 5+ I4 and (typically) a 36" heavy weapon? What?

Give swooping hawks something to do, instead of attempting to take the place of other aspects. Make phoenix lords not so expensive, or make them more powerful for their point cost.

I would also like to see some more HQs...give us Iyanna, or some Saim-Hann leader, etc.

Give Falcons at least a BS4. Honestly, the main gunboat of the Eldar army isn't as good as shooting weapons as the transports? Also, don't make brightlances so idiotic. Its about 40-45 points for a S8 AP2. Sure, it has the lance rule, but it still isn't that great. If it was a S8 AP1 lance, then it would be more viable, or if they lowered the cost. This is probably just me crying over darklance spam at my local gaming club....

I don't quite understand why Wolves got these powerful psychic abilities. The Eldar are supposed to be the strongest and most experienced psychers. Buff eldritch storm up to S4, considering that most armies are marines, which are all T4.


While on the topic of HQs and Autarchs...

If Autarchs did get scrapped from being a great combatant, then something should take his place. An autarch is, while being a great general, a walker of many paths, so he is a skilled fighter. It makes sense to me.

Karhedron
13-10-2009, 11:41
OK, obviously people have not read the BA rumour thread (for some odd reason it is not the first place most people would look for Eldar rumours ;)).

Let's skip the discussion about whether Eldar should be in line for a revamp or not. I am sure that everyone has their own ideas of what should be worked on next. Let's also skip the discussion about whether the rumour is reliable. Anything outside GWs current 6-month window should be taken with a hefty dose of salt.

Let us assume for the sake of this thread that the rumour is true and work from there.

Tymell
13-10-2009, 11:54
OK, obviously people have not read the BA rumour thread (for some odd reason it is not the first place most people would look for Eldar rumours ;)).

Let's skip the discussion about whether Eldar should be in line for a revamp or not. I am sure that everyone has their own ideas of what should be worked on next. Let's also skip the discussion about whether the rumour is reliable. Anything outside GWs current 6-month window should be taken with a hefty dose of salt.

Let us assume for the sake of this thread that the rumour is true and work from there.

A good intention, and it does always help to lay out clearly what a thread is for in advance. I commend you for that :) But at the same time, I can just see this veering off into just those areas you describe. I'll try not to though, so I shan't continue on here, since I myself don't have much in the way of suggestions for Eldar, beyond updating some of the aspects into plastic.

I suppose there is one point I could make: I do feel there's a bit too much of an "It's not the best at one particular area therefore there's something wrong with it" attitude to units these days. I see it all the time when discussing updates: folks will say "This unit doesn't do this job quite as well as this other one, so it's no good", which I feel ignores other points like flexibility, the flavour of the unit/army, the models, etc. I do agree things should be as balanced as possible, and not everyone who considers tactical power most is some kind of powegamer. I'm just saying not every unit has to be the very best at a specific area. Though with Eldar, this is less of an issue.

Arakanis
13-10-2009, 11:57
While on the topic of HQs and Autarchs...

If Autarchs did get scrapped from being a great combatant, then something should take his place. An autarch is, while being a great general, a walker of many paths, so he is a skilled fighter. It makes sense to me.

It's kind of stupid though. Think about it. Most aspect warriors have been on at least one other Way before. It just doesn't make sense that if say, your average Striking Scorpion has been a Swooping Hawk before and then he becomes a Dire Avenger later on he'll suddenly be WS 6 BS 6 and a master of strategy to boot.

The concept of Menshad Korum fits this much better. The Exarch of the Path rather than the Exarch of the Way. In any case, Exarchs were always the battle leaders, until the Autarch popped up out of no where. And then 3rd rolled around and Exarchs became Aspect Sergeants basically. :wtf:

Thud
13-10-2009, 12:04
I'm not very demanding, all I want is for them to fix the following units: Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Support Weapons, Falcon and the Phoenix Lords. All of them are over-costed and under-performing.

Also, I'd like to see some of the heavy weapons brought back to sane point levels. I mean, one Bright Lance costs as much as half a Fire Dragon squad. And that's just the Bright Lance, if you want something to carry it around you're starting to near 100-150 points for one shot that will probably miss anyway.

Poseidal
13-10-2009, 12:10
The one model that would REALLY benefit from Plastic is the Fire Prism.

At the moment, you have the light plastic Falcon Chassis and turret, with a massive and heavy gun on top at the back. This makes the model really unbalanced and constantly tipping backwards.

The Prism gun itself is also a pain to build, as the metal parts don't exactly go together well.

Are Eldar the only line left with models still from 1st edition (Rogue Trader?)

We can see:

Warlocks - mostly 1st (!) edition models, with one 3rd edition Warlock.
Warp Spiders - 2nd edition
Jetbikes - 2nd edition
Wraithguard - 2nd edition
Vyper - late 2nd edition
Falcon - late 2nd edition
Prism - late 2nd edition

The Warlocks are fantastic, and probably timeless. I don't think they ever need to be replaced.

Jetbikes, although I like the design clearly don't fit with the rest of the Eldar range with the 'classic' guardians riding them. They would be my main candidate for an upgrade, especially with the basic option of the Shuriken Cannon being a metal/plastic hybrid only.

Wraithguard and Spiders both look a bit 'static' now, I think Wraithguard could possibly be re imagined onto a Terminator size base.

Vyper, Falcon and Prism have stood up really well, the only problem one being the Prism as the metal parts don't fit well together and cause balance issues.

I think the Falcon turret can be easily remade, allowing for parts to make a plastic Prism turret and maybe a variation for the Night Spinner and Firestorm which could be really easily added to the list IG style. There would be one or two boxes with the parts for different turrets.

General Fishsticks
13-10-2009, 12:15
I'm not an eldar player, so my comments come as an observer :)

The obvious idea for me would be to change/improve guardians. At the moment they epitimise the weak unit; they're overpriced - and an expensive and fragile way to have a standard heavy weapon. Poor armour, poor toughness and a standard weapon ill-suited to their general role.

Shuriken catapults are just poorly stated; a 12" assault 2 weapon is of questionable value, especially on a unit with a mediocre close combat capacity.

By comparison with an ork slugga - which I believe is an 18" assault 2 weapon with the same strength, admittedly on a poorer shot, but on a more durable bod for 3 points less; or a tau firewarrrior with a substantially superior 30" str 5 rapid fire rifle for 2 points more (with more armour to boot). Whilst these comparisons are heavily reduced, both of these weapons compliment the unit using it, whereas the shuriken catapult feels distinctly at odds with the guardian.

It would seem reasonable to change or remove this weapon from guardians - either to improve its range and keep their current cost, or give them a lasgun analogue and reduce their price. In addition/alternatively the unit size requirement for a heavy weapon needs to be reduced; paying a base of 80 points in order to then have to pay out for a heavy weapon is excessive - especially when you consider that you can have an imperial guard squad - with similar (if not practically better ranged firepower, a comparible close combat ability, numbers, armour and heavy weapon) capabilities for 30 points less. True the guardian's heavy weapon is mobile; but considering the poor durability of the guardians, you'd want to be monopolising on cover and bunkers for guardians, minimising the usefulnes of that mobility.

Scott767
13-10-2009, 12:17
I agree with a change to guardians weaponry. I like guardians and feel that with tweaking they could become the staple of eldar armies. keep all the stats the same but increase the range of the catapults to 18'. thats all. some say that that would make dire avengers obselete, i disagree. DAs have better BS,WS and save, and can have an exarch.
Warlocks also need a points reduction to make them a more viable choice for guardians. An alternative to an increase of range for guardians' catapults (making them a threat at short to mid range) would be to make them better at long range shooting. not sure how this would be achieved without just giving the squad an option to have two support platforms. anyway i prefer the 18' range for guardian catapults!!

Scott767
13-10-2009, 12:21
lol just read the post above mine, all true. currently guardians are overpriced. if GW plans to do nothing to their stats and weapons then they should have a points reduction to 7 points or maybe even 6.

Thud
13-10-2009, 12:24
Oh, yeah, I forgot about Guardians. They're so underused that I don't even think about them as an Eldar unit anymore. They are definitely in need of some love.

Poseidal
13-10-2009, 12:28
I wouldn't advocate a points drop for Guardians, because they're not a horde of Gaunts.

My suggestions were: Guardians up to 9 or 10 points -> 18" catapult, 4+ Save
All Aspect Warriors minor points increase -> 3+ Save (unless they already have it)
Dire Avengers get CCW + Pistol along with the points increase, as they're the 'all round' aspect which all the aspects were based on.

The 18" goes on all Catapults, especially on vehicles.

Macragge
13-10-2009, 12:28
Blimey, seems like only yesterday I was in the GW Leicester store with my mate Dave (and Eldar player) getting a wee look at the pending codex that was behind the counter!

I think probably all they need is a drop in points cost on a few things, because I think their current codex is pretty darn good tbh.

Scott767
13-10-2009, 12:29
I have 20 of them and plan to use them. they look cool. despite being overpriced they are still a cheap way of getting boots on the ground.

Dwane Diblie
13-10-2009, 13:03
Eldar Guardians: Bring back the 2nd ed Guardians with lasguns, or should I say lasblasters.
Give the unit the option of taking all Lasblasters, Shuriken Catapults or Combat Weapons. Then give the unit a choice of 1 heavy weapon or 2 special weapons. Or go crazy and give the above option for every 10 modles in the unit. I have been fighting for this since the 3rd ed codex.

I love and use the swooping hawks in almost all games. So I disagree that they need to be re thought. But that being said I would like to see them get their 2nd ed Grenade pacs back.

Aspect warriors in general. I think they need to be taylored more for their roll on the battlefield in the form of a stat tweek. IE I beleave Howling Banshees should be WS5 BS2 S3 T3 W1 I6 A1 LD9. Next I would like to see the squad sizes return to 3 - 7 modles.

More Heavy Weapon options for Jetbikes? Maybe just an adative of EML in adition of the Shuriken Cannon.

Wraithguard. PLASTIC PLEASE. :D I say yes to Combat variant with Wraithsword and Create a Wraithshield as well. The shield could be 4+involnerable in combat?

After years of trying to come up with a viable new Aspect warrior I think I have come up with one. Furious Falcons? A unit dedicated to hunting Monsterous Creatures. Could have Prefered Enemy MC and do double wounds? Or somthing along the lines of Dwarf Troll Slayer abitlitys. I'll leat yous talk this one out.

That is all I can think of for now.

Grindgodgrind
13-10-2009, 13:21
I'd like to see a return for the Solitaire in units of Harlequins, that'd be pretty col. I think being able to buy different options for an Avatar would be pretty cool, like if he could project the power of the Wailing Doom into a flamer template or suchlike. I'd like to see a plastic kit for seers, for sure, and new models for the Warp Spiders/Spears/Wraithguard...

havokas
13-10-2009, 13:26
lol eldar after blood angels, let them do the codex's that need to be done first. there alot of older codexes.

SideshowLucifer
13-10-2009, 14:40
Where to begin...
First I'd love to see the Phoenix Warriors become a unit upgrade rather than IC's and match their power accordingly.
Next, I'd love for the Falcon to receive an Assault Ramp. Always bothered me the most advanced race couldn't manage a ramp.
I'd be thrilled to see the Eldar become the masters of Psychic powers once again. They have two good ones currently, but nothing with real wow factor like thy used to.
Plastic Artillery! Please, make plastic artillery. $100 for a unit of artilery is nerve wracking.
Last but not leas, bring back the glry day of the warp spiders and either give their mono wire web guns a decent ap or make them templates again. They are still suffering for their 2nd edition superiority.

Souleater
13-10-2009, 14:44
Someone dropped into the BA rumour thread to imply Eldar are actively being worked on and should be out fairly soon after Blood Angels.


If CWE get another codex before the True Kin I will post biting, caustic comments in the interweb. :cries:

Karhedron
13-10-2009, 15:42
I think that Invulnerable saves all round would certainly help the case for the Phoenix Lords a bit. In an age where every man and his (cybernetically enhanced) dog takes power weapons in their squads, T4 and a normal armour save just does not cut it in the survivability stakes.

Sildani
13-10-2009, 15:47
The person who posted the Eldar tidbit seems to have gotten some things right when the IG were the Next Big Thing.

Also, Brimstone didn't delete his post or refute it outright when he last cleaned up the BA thread, like he's done before.

Hmmm.

incarna
13-10-2009, 15:56
I looked around – where is the source for the rumor that the Eldar in line for a new codex?

Not that I’m complaining but our codex can still hold its own within the context of 5th ed and Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Tau are, in my opinion, more deserving.

Fixer
13-10-2009, 15:58
Well. Wishlisting here...

Current units that can fleet can now run and shoot in the same movement phase.
Starcannons discounted in price to make them a viable choice.
Brightlances made AP1 or likewise discounted to match their in-game value.
Vypers given the Eldar jetbike rule.
Holofields and Spiritstones made mutually exclusive.
Holofields do not work against glancing/penetrating hits from ramming when the Eldar player is the iniatiator of the ramming attack. "Fortunately the immobile bunker's jutting support beam was confused by the holographic field and merely glanced off the Falcon's hull!"
Swooping Hawks given weapons capable of actually harming the enemy.
Dark Reapers discounted.
Seer councils on bikes limited to 5 members or less.
Eldrad increased in price.

CoolKidRoc
13-10-2009, 16:22
I think Waveserpents should have an assault ramp. It already costs so much for the vehicle and the fact that it only has one exit makes it very easy for the enemy to block it and then you have to move again and try exiting the next turn, or exit with your fragile troops and deal with the enemies shooting phase.

Forgotmytea
13-10-2009, 17:51
Swooping Hawks given weapons capable of actually harming the enemy.
This would be my main hope :D

People have already mentioned it, but I'd like to add my vote to the pile for BS4 Falcons. As one of the main Eldar tanks, it does seem to suffer a bit with the BS. Makes taking a Heavy 1 Brightlance a bit risky, given that it's only going to hit 50% of the time.

And yes, a plastic sprue allowing us to upgrade the Falcon to a Fire Prism would be wonderful :)

Emeraldw
13-10-2009, 18:09
My own personal list:

Autarch:
Given access to exarch wargear to make him more flexible as opposed to basic aspect equipment (I.E. Executioner or mirror swords).

Possibly allow for some Aspects to be troops though this could be through Phoenix Lords.

Dire Avengers:
Price cut, they cost a lot for what they do in this current codex cycle.

Banshees:
please, for the love of god, give them furious charge!

Scorpions:
I would like to see Stealth as a base rule for them.

Hawks:
Instead of giving hawks more firepower, I would like to see something else done with them. Eldar mobility is good, but I also want a way to limit the enemies mobility. Hawks could have a pinning weapon that pins at a -ld to make it a reliable pinning weapon in a game with fearless and ld9-10 all over.

Haywire to work like Wraith cannons on vehicles.

WraithGuard:
cheaper maybe? Special character to make them troops?

Farseers:
Spirit stones and runes of warding standard. Choose 2 or 3 psychic powers?

New Psychic powers.

Wave Serpents:
Cheaper in general.

Falcons:
I would like to see an Assualt transport for the Eldar. The falcon isn't a gunboat, the Fire Prism is. It isn't only a transport, the Wave Serpent does that better. A land Raider type vehicle for eldar would be awesome :)

The other option would to make it a perfect anti vehicle long range weapon with bright lance shots. The fire prism is just a flexible weapon boat.

Dark Reapers:
Cheaper? More shots? Different heavy weapons? I was thinking long fangs if they were to be changed.

Shining Spears:
2 attacks Base, and potentially a price cut.


Finish:
I really just want Farseers improved and banshees to get furious charge. Some price reductions (especially on bright lances) and I would be a very happy camper.

Gwyidion
13-10-2009, 18:19
Phoenix lords all get a 4+ invulnerable. The swooping hawk one (which i care so little about i can't remember how to spell his name) needs a giant boost. Asurmen gets a 3+ invulnerable.

Guardians can exchange (for free) their shuricats for lasblasters. 1 platform for every 6 guardians.

Swooping hawks get fixed. Either this is exchanging their lasblasters for grenade launchers and giving them relentless, giving them a permanent 4+ cover save, something.

Brightlances get a small boost. Perhaps Str 9 ap2, Lance?

Farseers get a boost. creep in psyker powers is getting rediculous, and it seems like eldar need a psychic defense-defense. Wargear to add to rolls that determine if powers are nullified or not? Hell, get blatant, farseers can cast 3 powers a turn, two are the same, eldrad can cast 4.

powers:
eldritch storm. Str 4 Ap 4 large blast, pinning. specify it does not scatter, and ignores cover.

guide/fortune - every unit within 6"

mind war - only invulnerable saves may be taken. I can't think of another way to buff this without making it broken. Thoughts are - targets that lose the test take an invuln, and if they fail, are removed. Or, farseer rolls 2d6, chooses highest.

Autarch - reroll to seize initiative. If attached to an aspect squad, that squad counts as scoring (aspect only, or seer councils just got rediculous).

Hell - for waveserpents, just make them assault vehicles - their hatch point can remain the same.

These are things I view as 'fixes' to make units taken more often. As for things I would like to see...


HQ choices specialize armies in a way similar to C:SM choices. A sort of hybrid of craftworlds and SM hq choices.

I would love to see plastic wraithguard and a buff for them in options and power. However, it would be really easy to make wraithguard broken as all hell, especially when they can be taken with enhance. If given a 5+ invulnerable from some sort of wraithshield (and oh god, can we stop with the wraith______?) then they don't need conceal, and enhance will become the default choice. I would like to see a plethora of choices for the wraithguard, ranging from 18" wraithcannons, to shuricannons, to powerweapon/stormshield to executioners (the image of a wraithguard with an executioner is coooool). But thats all wishlisting, and seems really good, if current statline and rules stay constant (10-man T6 S5 unit with 3+ armor, 5+ invuln, power weapons, troops, WS 5, I 5 - suddenly 400 points doesn't seem so high a price to pay, considering how rediculously hard the unit becomes with fortune - they ignore 55%-88% of all wounds that get through T6).

Bunnahabhain
13-10-2009, 18:22
What I'd like to see as a Non Eldar player.
1: No codex for some time, the current one is very good, and others have much more need, both in model and rules terms.

Wraithguard. Plastic, mult-part, 40mm base models. Current weapons, and a CC varient- writhblades sound a great idea.

Guardians. Just fix them. Start with a sensible gun. Allow a squad of over X models to take the current support weapon platform instead of their existing platform, as they currently seem lost.

Release the plastic jetbikes, we know they exist!

Vypers. Either make them a bit better armoured- AV11 front and side? or make them a 2 wound heavy jetbike within jetbike units, ( a la marine bike units)

Swooping hawks. Decide on a role for them, and make them work for it.

Falcons. Plastic kit for falcon, fire prism, firestorm, death spinner in one box. BS4 as basic. look at costs

Phoniex lords made useful. They deserve EW if any man sized model does. Their aspect may also be taken as troops if they're present- charcterful, not game breaking!

Fix jet bike seer councils.

Wargear and weapons to fix and or recost.
Holofields
Starcannons
Bright lances

Virtually everything about the Eldar codex works well, and most of their models are timeless. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

hydra66
13-10-2009, 18:49
Just started putting together an eldar army. Surprised you peeps are talking about anoth codex when tau, necrons and dark eldar haven't had a codex since 3rd. A few points:

As has been said, standard guardians are naff. The fluff says they're called on to defend their homeworld. How many do you see in your typical eldar army currently? Give em better range and slightly more punch power (they still won't hit half the time). Keep the dire avengers range reasonbly crappy so players have to decide between range that hardly hits or short range weapons that hit but run the risk of being swamped/bottom whooped in close combat.

Swooping hawks have awesome models and they're the entire reason I wanted to go for this army. At the mo they're like the Raek in Hordes - cool model, crap stats. Give em a role please.

Some of the list needs souping up, on the otherhand some of the list needs expensifying :( With all the plays that 40k gets I'm surprised that GW hasn't balanced the codexes more instead of just producing more and more broken codexes

Harfaern
13-10-2009, 18:55
My ideas.

Adapt the Eldars to the 5th edition:

*Cheaper heavy weapons

*Cheaper vehicles

*IC (Phoenix Lords) powerful and making squads counting as Troops

*Better armour (and inv) saves

*Better psychic powers

*More Outflanking and Deep Strike, and special rules about it


And personal wishlist:

*Give to the army less dependency on Warlocks and (specially) Farseers, more prominence to Exarchs and Autarchs

*Revamp the Hawks, the Vypers and the shuriken catapults

*Close combat Wraithguards (something freak, a la TH/SS termies)

*War Walkers as Fast Attack

*Cheaper Reapers, Shining Spears & Harlies

*Wraithsight as 2nd edition

Emeraldw
13-10-2009, 18:57
What I'd like to see as a Non Eldar player.
1: No codex for some time, the current one is very good, and others have much more need, both in model and rules terms.

Virtually everything about the Eldar codex works well, and most of their models are timeless. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

Actually, if you think about it, Eldar make a perfect mid release. They don't need many models, their rules need adjustment, not overhaul and maybe some new options to play with. Further, it is a popular Xenos army, making it a decent money maker. Lower work and a decent return? Sounds like a good release to put in the middle of other codex's.

Necrons, Tau and Inquisition need a lot of work, this is a good place to throw something in that isn't so hard to do.


Just started putting together an eldar army. Surprised you peeps are talking about anoth codex when tau, necrons and dark eldar haven't had a codex since 3rd. A few points:

Some of the list needs souping up, on the otherhand some of the list needs expensifying :( With all the plays that 40k gets I'm surprised that GW hasn't balanced the codexes more instead of just producing more and more broken codexes

There was a rumor in the Blood Angels thread that Eldar might be sooner than we think. See above why it really isn't such a terrible idea.

As to Balance, it has been made clear that balance isn't exactly the goal of Warhammer. The goal is to create a fun, fluffy game, not a perfectly balanced one.

Badger[Fr]
13-10-2009, 18:57
The one thing that would fix a lot for me, is the concept that Eldar have to be fragile.
Erm, fragility has always been a defining feature of Eldar / Elven armies.



Bring back powerful IC exarchs, T4 Seers, survivable falcons, etc.
Are you joking? The Seer Council is currently the most resilient unit in the whole game, and if anything, Eldar Tanks are hardly fragile (thanks to their Force Fields and Holofields, not to mention cover saves).

Though, what never fails to make me laugh in such threads is the fact that nobody ever complains about the broken stuff. While Guardians and Swooping Hawks sorely need better rules, Fire Dragons, Seer Councils, and Eldrad deserve nothing but a nerf.


Jetbikes: The only 1st edition model left in the range. We have seen Jes Goodwin's concept sculpt of a very cool new Jetbike. Please just make this with riders to match the current Guardians and the job will be done. Upgrade Shining Spears to match.

This! I would already be playing Eldar, if not for the horrible Jetbike model.

Ravenous
13-10-2009, 18:59
Phoenix Lords: I have never fielded one in 4th edition and I can't imagine doing so either. They are quite pricey and just struggle to compete options like Farseers, Autarchs and Avatars who enhance the rest of the army rather than just being powerhouses in their own right. One idea I like is to allow them to count their own Aspect as Troops if you take them (or at least as Scoring). This would go a long way to making them useful in an army as you can suddenly field aspect-themed armies.

Agreed, Phoenix lords should have let you take that aspect as troops since according to the fluff they wander around with a massive entourage of that aspect. For their points they are simpley "fluff" units.


Farseers: With the recent power creep in psychic abilities, I think Farseers could do with a buff. Nothing major but maybe increasing the range of their powers slightly. At the moment you tend to end up with Eldar armies huddled around their Farseer who doles out bonuses rather than moving to engage the enemy. Give all powers and extra 6" range and I think we would be good to go.

I also think we shouldnt be paying for powers, everyone else seems to get to choose 2 I think we should get to choose 3 and use three. Runes of Witnessing and Warding should just come stock.

It would be nice to see farseers take back the top spot of psykers in 40k, they dont need powerhouse things like the imperials but having tons of buff powers would be great.

Hell even make some of them passive so we dont get crippled by ******s like Njal.

For the most part the codex is good, Eldrad and seer councils are the only thing that seem to jiggle the bug in peoples asses. What I'd like to see:

Cheaper bikes: 18pts or less for a Bs3 S3 T4 3+ model seems good to me. New model would help out loads.
Cheaper Reapers: At 35pts each they are a little too expensive for what they do considering cover saves are everywhere. 25 to 30pts would be great
Wraithguard: They get one shot off before getting stuck in combat, very meh. Cheaper/longer range/CC options would be great.
Eldrad: make normal farseers better and him more expensive and you'll see less of him
Wraithlord: Give him 3 attacks again or some CC options more then the sword.
Pathfinders: Bs5 Ld10;) 24pts is way to huge for what they do.

incarna
13-10-2009, 19:11
I’d like to see Phoneix lords removed as, in my opinion, they’re similar to the Eldar version of a Space Marine Primarch. On that note, I would like to see more special characters (even though I don’t use any). I think a Wraithlord special character is called for considering their age and combat expertise.

I think there needs to be at least one more HQ option in addition to Farseers, Autarch, and Avitars. I’m not sure what though – maybe a “Guardian Arch-militant” that isn’t terribly great as an individual but twin links support weapons within guardian defender squads and allows Storm Guardians to re-roll to hit. Considering what’s available in Tyranid armies and Imperial Guard orders, I don’t think that’s too much to ask.

farseers need to be "the most powerfull psychers in the galaxy" as they were intended to be - currently they're close to the bottom tier of psychers.

Scorpions and Banshees need a slight point reduction.

Fire Dragons need an exarch power that provides the squad with immunity from wounds caused by vehicles that blow up within 6” of them.

Wraithguard need a point reduction or need their cannon’s range increased to 18”.

Guardians need an overhaul – an ability to take a support weapon for every 4 members of the squad.

Wave Serpents need to be assault vehicles.

Guardian jetbikes need a slight point reduction.

Vipers need to be severely reduced in point cost.

Swooping hawks need a complete makeover. I don’t have a suggestion – like any players, they are the unit that drew me to the Eldar in the first place.

Shining Spears need a serious point reduction or they need their weapons strength increased to 8 and their number of attacks increased.

Wraithlords need to have shields as wargear which gives them a 3+ invulnerable save… If terminators can have such a thing, I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a wraithlord to too. They also need the ability to take a dedicated Warlock as an upgrade so they can be used independently from the rest of the army.

Heavy Weapons platforms need some tweaking.

Falcons need an overhaul – I don’t have a suggestion, just something to make them usable.

Gwyidion
13-10-2009, 19:47
Heres an idea for a fix for shining spears - give them executioners and a point drop. Now they have slightly lower strength, but keep their effectiveness in combat past round 1. Increase squad size to 10, decrease points to 30, and give them furious charge, hit and run, and skilled rider via the exarch.

For reference, 10 banshees with exarch, executioner and a semi-tooled wave-serpent is about 312 points, here we are talking about a 10 man T4, ws 4, 3+ unit with S5 power weapons, and 30 attacks on the charge at S6, I6, so i don't know if 312+ points (if exarchs continue to buy powers) is appropriate or not, but its an idea.

Ideas for swooping hawks:

normal aspect statline, 1 attack, 5+ save


Special rules (via exarch):
Master of the Skies: cover saves may never be taken against wounds or damage results inflicted by swooping hawks during a phase in which swooping hawks moved.

Aerial Assault
Swooping hawks may assault after deepstriking.


Disruption rifle: As a wraithcannon vs. vehicles, at 24" (1-2 no effect, 3-4 glance, 5-6 pen) assault 1. Cannot wound infantry, a squad shot by any number of disruption rifles takes d3 (d6?) pinning tests.

may exchange their rifles for shuriken pistols and close combat weapons.

Swooping Hawk Fragmentation Grenade launcher: S4 ap 6, R24" assault 2

Swooping Hawk Wings: Move in a scintillating and disorienting blur of color and speed. The swooping hawks have a permanent 4+ cover save.

Exarch gear:
Disruption Lance, R30" assault 1, glance 2-3, pen 4-6.
or
executioner and shimmershield.


Just ideas. This squad won't ever be considered a melee powerhouse, but it can wreck hordes well enough. The rifles seem way too good, but again, just ideas.

Melchiah
13-10-2009, 19:48
First off, there is always 20 guardians im my list. They do as I ask and i get the same in return.



Anyways what I would like to see in the a new 'dex:

-The return of some of the old wargear (Eldar power fists, web of skulls, lasblasters on guardians...)
-Weapon upgrades lowered (their pretty much overpriced on every unit)
-Tweeks made to the Farseer. The best psyker in the game is getter worse by the creep.
- Something done to make the Wave Serpent more "effishant" (At basic upgrade coast it's till 100 points for a transport:eyebrows:)
- Up the range for shuriken Catapluts.
- Make Dire Avengers more well wounded for melee
- Lower point for rangers (seems like only bill gates can afford pathfinders)
-Bring back the old speacil charaters
- Everguard
-Warlock Seer Council
(Evergaurd and coucil could be 0-1 as an ellite choice depending on which you take as the "leader" of the army)

Plus what everyone else has said.

For new models i would like to see

-Plastic Autarch Kit (would be nice)
-Everguard
- Plastic Seer/warlock kit
-Eldrad
- New Avatar
-New Phoenix Lord
- New Wraithguard
-New Guardians (would be a second wave as their not "that bad a kit")
- Shinging Spears/jetbikes
-Warp Spiders (again second wave not "that" bad)
-Vypers
-Falcon (starting to show its age, second wave)

Ravenous
13-10-2009, 19:49
Just an add on to farseers, change the powers to be anytime in the movement phase, nothing is stupider then getting mauled because of a reserves game.

exsulis
13-10-2009, 20:08
The only point I disagree with the OP is the Falcon. The thing was too good for its points in 4th Ed. Anyone else remember the endless complaints about the unkillable status of that thing? Now I'm not saying its points shouldn't be reevaluated but we don't need unkillable tanks that can fly around the table, and drop off troops to any spot on the board. Without having to worry about even possibly lossing it.

Badger[Fr]
13-10-2009, 20:26
Wraithlords need to have shields as wargear which gives them a 3+ invulnerable save… If terminators can have such a thing, I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a wraithlord to too. They also need the ability to take a dedicated Warlock as an upgrade so they can be used independently from the rest of the army.
This must be the most ridiculous I ever read in a Wishlist thread on Warseer. Seriously, a 3+ Invulnerable save? On an already efficient T8 Monstruous creature? Because, you know, being vulnerable to Lascannons is so unfair?



farseers need to be "the most powerfull psychers in the galaxy" as they were intended to be - currently they're close to the bottom tier of psychers.
Are we even playing the same game? Most SM, Chaos, or IG play would happily trade their whole family for the ability to field an Eldar Farseer. Doom and Fortune are amongst the most potent psychic powers in the entire game.



Heres an idea for a fix for shining spears - give them executioners and a point drop. Now they have slightly lower strength, but keep their effectiveness in combat past round 1. Increase squad size to 10, decrease points to 30, and give them furious charge, hit and run, and skilled rider via the exarch.
Erm... You know there is a middle ground between "grossly overpriced" and "ridiculously efficient?"



- Something done to make the Wave Serpent more "effishant" (At basic upgrade coast it's till 100 points for a transport)
Arguably the best transport in the game, though.

Poseidal
13-10-2009, 20:34
;4035155']
Erm... You know there is a middle ground between "grossly overpriced" and "ridiculously efficient?"


That's still not actually very good. They're still 30 point models with one attack each.

Badger[Fr]
13-10-2009, 20:43
That's still not actually very good. They're still 30 point models with one attack each.
They're fast, well armoured, and wield a high strength, armour ignoring weapon at I5. Compared to, say, Assault Marines or Space Marine Bikers, they are ridiculously good. Plus, why would you ever field Banshees or Scorpions if you can get the benefits of both (high strenght, good I, armour ignoring weapons) for a relatively low price? Keep the Laser lance as it is, a point drop or an Exarch Power granting them an additional attack on the turn they charge should be enough: Shining Spears are a scalpel, not a sledgehamer.

Sons of Alaitoc v.2
13-10-2009, 20:51
I think the Farseers should have more psychic abilities, the wraithlord and all pheonix lords should have an invulnerable save

DeathTyrant
13-10-2009, 21:06
Not an Eldar player myself (though an admirer of the collection my brother has stored away), but I would like to see the Phoenix Lords made to be very 'beefy'.

Poseidal
13-10-2009, 21:19
;4035213']They're fast, well armoured, and wield a high strength, armour ignoring weapon at I5. Compared to, say, Assault Marines or Space Marine Bikers, they are ridiculously good. Plus, why would you ever field Banshees or Scorpions if you can get the benefits of both (high strenght, good I, armour ignoring weapons) for a relatively low price? Keep the Laser lance as it is, a point drop or an Exarch Power granting them an additional attack on the turn they charge should be enough: Shining Spears are a scalpel, not a sledgehamer.

With one attack. A unit of 5 charging gets 10 attacks, half hit, two thirds wound (against MEQ). 3.33 casualties. For more or less the same points, 10 Scorpions get the same casualties but have double the wounds (albeit at T3 rather than 4). They'll fare better in later rounds, as they're down 1/4 of their attacks, not 1/2. Banshees cause more wounds overall than both.

Against GEQ, both Scorpions and Banshees get better and those 'super spears' get worse.

On the other end of the scale, against a T6 Carnifex, Banshees cause 3.33 wounds, they cause 2.22 with the executioner. (though both fare better than Scorpions, who cause 1.4 or 0.7 depending on 3+ or 2+ save, but they'll have a Power Fist).

These are on the charge, where they are the most useful but taking out S6 on the charge to S5 all the time and a 5 point cut really doesn't bring them to top of the pile.

On the other hand, let's make them a cavalry unit that's S5 Power Weapon on the charge (let's make it once per game though) with two attacks each for 11 points per model (and take it down to WS3 though, as a drawback).

Mathshammer for these, equal points you get 14. Charging Marines, that's 42 attacks, 21 hits, 14 wounds. That's almost 3 times more than the Banshees could kill!

---

Anyway, I wouldn't give them an Executioner anyway; they've had Laser Lances since 2nd edition, so they're here to stay. The easiest thing to do is just give them an extra attack through a pistol or something like that so people consider them, no points changes needed.

Sorros
13-10-2009, 21:22
;4035213']They're fast, well armoured, and wield a high strength, armour ignoring weapon at I5. Compared to, say, Assault Marines or Space Marine Bikers, they are ridiculously good. Plus, why would you ever field Banshees or Scorpions if you can get the benefits of both (high strenght, good I, armour ignoring weapons) for a relatively low price? Keep the Laser lance as it is, a point drop or an Exarch Power granting them an additional attack on the turn they charge should be enough: Shining Spears are a scalpel, not a sledgehamer.

Make them a higher price. Shining spears are supposed to be the rarest but one of the most powerful aspects, so an expensive, small unit that is still quite strong makes sense.

CoolKidRoc
13-10-2009, 21:23
Make them a higher price. Shining spears are supposed to be the rarest but one of the most powerful aspects, so an expensive, small unit that is still quite strong makes sense.

If they're supposd to be rare, just make them 0-1 instead of raising the price for no reason :D

I mean there are more then one out there, but one Calgar, should we just increase his price cause he's rare.

incarna
13-10-2009, 21:45
;4035155']This must be the most ridiculous I ever read in a Wishlist thread on Warseer. Seriously, a 3+ Invulnerable save? On an already efficient T8 Monstruous creature? Because, you know, being vulnerable to Lascannons is so unfair?
You clearly haven’t thought through the idea very well than. The ideal incarnation of this idea would be for a wraithlord who purchases a wraithsword to forego the purchase of a ranged weapon to purchase a shield instead. The idea is not unreasonable considering the existence of storm shield terminators and would give the wraithlord added versatility against power-klaw nobs, greater daemons, and tyranid monstrous creatures… at the cost of range effectiveness.

Considering the power and value of a wraithlord on a fluff level, I don’t think it’s unreasonable for bonesingers to clad their greatest warrior constructs behind the same armor that a lowly boxing warlock wears.

But you’re totally right – ridiculous! What kind of dying race would bother to build an answer to the very things the harsh universe unfolds to deal with their military force – especially with the materials on hand. Silly me.



;4035155']
Are we even playing the same game? Most SM, Chaos, or IG play would happily trade their whole family for the ability to field an Eldar Farseer. Doom and Fortune are amongst the most potent psychic powers in the entire game.
Apparently we are NOT playing the same game since a Chaos sorcerer can MOVE AN OPPOSING UNIT as he sees fit – off objectives on the last turn of a game, into first turn assaults, etc. we have Space Wolves who can instant-kill monstrous creatures, imperial guard psycher squads who can, at full strength, drop AV 14 vehicles, and Space marines who can teleport around the battlefield neigh at-will… and god knows what’s hitting the game in the new Tyranid codex.

The farseer’s roll as a buffer is good, but nowhere near the top tier of psychers. Eldrich storm? Give me a break – even mind war isn’t versitile enough to be worth the points. So what does EVERY elder farseer on the tabletop have? Fortune, Doom, or both. The “most powerful psychers in the glaxy” are cookie cutters that amount to a unit upgrade.

Cornishman
13-10-2009, 22:04
I've played Eldar in a long time but from the couple of times I've played them here are my thoughts concerning the codex, overall the codex is solid but does have a few obvious issues:
Guardians: At present the Shuriken Catapult don't work with them, they are too expensive, and too vulnerable if in range to use them, 18" Assault 2 would differentiate them from the rapid fire weapons which are the mainstays of other armies, to option of re-introducing Las armed guardians would be an interesting option for longer ranged firepower.
Give Storm Guardians grenades as standard and I think they’re good to go.
I like the suggestions of allowing a Phoenix Lord to allow a single unit/units of the associated Aspect to either be taken as troops, unfortunately I’m not quite sure whether this is a good idea in practice both in terms of internal balance within the army, or in pricing them, Jain Zar and Scoring Banshees on the offence or Maugan Ra with scoring Reapers could be an interesting challenge to cost accurately.
The idea of having a dedicated CC version of the Wraithguard is a must say and interesting one, an inkeeping with the themes that the wraithbone grows according to the souls within it.
There is the usual range of possible price tweaks.
Personally I think some of the biggest thing’s I’d like to see aren’t to do with the codex would be the likely expansion of the Eldar Plastics to accompany the launch.

Emeraldw
13-10-2009, 22:06
I disagree with the 3++ option. A 5++ maybe, but honestly, a Wraithlord is already tough as he is Toughness, freaking 8. Even deamon princes need 6's to wound it. It is also str 10.

Wraithlords could use extra attacks in CC and with a decrease in cost of heavy weapons, they will still rock. Don't forget they can get cover saves! (even if it isn't easy)

Farseers have two, maybe three (guide) powers that are really amazing. Fortune is just amazing and is what makes the Seer council work, same with some Wraithguard builds.

I would like to see Farseers with a 3++. I also wouldn't mind seeing their Witchblades ignore armor but that might be a little much.

As to extra HQ's:
Heroic Exarchs ala Warp Spider Exarch from DoW2

A "War" seer instead of a farseer. Specializes in blasting the enemy apart and causing mayhem on the enemy.

Gwyidion
13-10-2009, 22:09
The shining spears changes i suggested are just ideas to start debate, hardly concrete or anything. The problem I have with their lances is how they turn to absolute crap on the 2nd round of fighting.

With hit and run, you want to stay through your opponent's phase, hit and run out, and then charge again in your own phase (thus avoiding getting ripped apart by fire). However, spears are designed to take out burly CC units. They almost ALWAYS lose combat in the 2nd phase, when they are attacking with a piddly 5 s3 non-power weapon attacks. If you leave after the first phase, you get shot to pieces.

A point drop won't make me take them, because they still just aren't that great.

And as to why-take-banshees - spears still can only attack 18 (12 + 6). They can't be protected while moving into position by a serpent. They have decent armor, but it still isn't that tough.


As to farseers/wraithlords.

3++ for lords is OTT. a 5++ CC-only seems like the way to go. Bump them back to 3 attacks (or 2+ 1 for wraithsword). Maybe a HQ wraithlord could get a 4+ invuln all around, but the idea of a T8 MC that can be fortuned to ignore 75% of all wounds that people manage to score on him is amazingly nasty.

For farseers, i agree with the sentiment that fortune and doom are amazing. They really are amazing. It turns fairly tough units into neigh-invulnerable units, and decent shooty units into units that can rip apart others. I think, buff the farseer, in terms of save and # of powers, change the mechanics of the psychic powers for eldar (cast in the movement phase, not before), increase the range, and make eldritch storm and mind war (and to some extent, guide) better, and you're fine.

mind war - no cover, no armor saves.
eldritch - doesn't scatter, s4, ap 4, large blast, rending, pinning
guide, all units within 6" (12"?)

Badger[Fr]
13-10-2009, 22:38
You clearly haven’t thought through the idea very well than. The ideal incarnation of this idea would be for a wraithlord who purchases a wraithsword to forego the purchase of a ranged weapon to purchase a shield instead. The idea is not unreasonable considering the existence of storm shield terminators and would give the wraithlord added versatility against power-klaw nobs, greater daemons, and tyranid monstrous creatures… at the cost of range effectiveness.
If the Wraithlord has to drop its ranged weapons (something you didn't mentioned in your first post), fair point then. Though, Assault terminators die to Lasguns and Bolters; Wraithlords do not. This is a *detail* you failed to take into account.


Apparently we are NOT playing the same game since a Chaos sorcerer can MOVE AN OPPOSING UNIT as he sees fit – off objectives on the last turn of a game, into first turn assaults, etc. we have Space Wolves who can instant-kill monstrous creatures,
Granted, these two psychic abilities are grossly overpowered. So? Your argument amounts to: "There are two overpowered psychic abilities in the whole game, so my Farseer should be ridiculously overpowered as well". You are mentioning two exceptions as if it they were the rule. Neither Space Marines nor Orks nor Daemons nor Guards nor the rest of the older Codices have these kind of game-breaking abilities, and it's actually a good thing.


imperial guard psycher squads who can, at full strength, drop AV 14 vehicles,
You don't even know what you're talking about. Sanctionned Psykers can, at best, throw a S9 template. Your oh-so-awesome IG Psykers are barely better than a glorified Lascannon.


The “most powerful psychers in the glaxy” are cookie cutters that amount to a unit upgrade.
I'd happily field that kind of unit upgrade, thanks. The ability to enhance a whole army is far more reliable and interesting to play than a one-trick pony such as JoTTW that doesn't even work against mechanized builds.



The farseer’s roll as a buffer is good, but nowhere near the top tier of psychers.
Well, I'd like to see the other amies awesome buffing psychic powers (except the obvious Lash), because I never heard of them before. Nightshroud? Rubbish. Null zone? Situational.



3++ for lords is OTT. a 5++ CC-only seems like the way to go.
The old Harlequin Wraithlord had a straight 4++ save. Sounds rather good to me, considering the only weapons that can hurt a Wraithlord are those that ignore its armour save.



With hit and run, you want to stay through your opponent's phase, hit and run out, and then charge again in your own phase (thus avoiding getting ripped apart by fire). However, spears are designed to take out burly CC units. They almost ALWAYS lose combat in the 2nd phase, when they are attacking with a piddly 5 s3 non-power weapon attacks. If you leave after the first phase, you get shot to pieces.
The emphasis should be put on the charge, IMHO. Keep the unit small and expensive, but make it strong enough to kill a low-model, Elite unit in a single blow.


I think, buff the farseer, in terms of save and # of powers, change the mechanics of the psychic powers for eldar (cast in the movement phase, not before), increase the range, and make eldritch storm and mind war (and to some extent, guide) better, and you're fine.
This is indeed reasonable, far more reasonable than the "Let's turn each Vanilla Farseer into Eldrad" rubbish I saw somewhere else.


mind war - no cover, no armor saves.
As long as the range is short enough, it looks balanced.


eldritch - doesn't scatter, s4, ap 4, large blast, rending, pinning
Rending seems weird. What about AP 1d6?


guide, all units within 6" (12"?)
Sounds a little too good IMHO. Guide's main issue is its unability to compete with Doom against most targets, but the power itself is far from being bad. Maybe twin-liking any weapon firing against a given target (instead of enhancing a single friendly unit)? Or make the enemy re-roll successful cover saves?

Erifnogard
13-10-2009, 22:46
For the most part I'm happy with the Eldar codex as is.

First and foremost I want plastic Wraithguard. It would be nice if they added new variants as well, but at this point I would accept just a plastic kit version of the current ones.

Second, do something with the guardians. Either give them enough platforms that their being armed with short range shuriken catapults isn't the waste that it currently is or give them lasblasters.

Plastic fire prism would be appreciated as well, though I don't use the GW version of the kit anyway.

Emeraldw
13-10-2009, 22:51
For the most part I'm happy with the Eldar codex as is.

First and foremost I want plastic Wraithguard. It would be nice if they added new variants as well, but at this point I would accept just a plastic kit version of the current ones.

Second, do something with the guardians. Either give them enough platforms that their being armed with short range shuriken catapults isn't the waste that it currently is or give them lasblasters.

Plastic fire prism would be appreciated as well, though I don't use the GW version of the kit anyway.

Agreeded on both points. Plastic Wraithguard would be wonderful.

Guardians to me seem like a good place to add long range heavy weapons. possibly 2 heavy weapons at BS4? Doesn't need to be assault thanks to how the weapon platforms work.

Lusall
13-10-2009, 22:53
I personaly thing the current Dex is quite fine, but I would love to see some changes made when the codex is finally re-done.

Mainly: Exodites. I'd -love- to see the Exodite Eldar made into an army list. The other thing is:

Bring back the Craftworld Eldar codex. (even if it's only added into the Eldar codex.) I think the current codex makes it easy to theme your Eldar army, but it leaves some things to be desired.

(i.e. Iyanden army.)

Paul Nexus
13-10-2009, 23:10
If attached to an aspect squad, that squad counts as scoring

Now that is what I am talking about. It emphasises the Autarch's tactical superiority in guiding units to achieve the objectives. Fluffy, effective and not game breaking.

The Autarch allowing one unit, per turn, to choose whether or not to pass/fail LD checks, or maybe just re-roll the result, pass or fail. The rule, of course, would be permenantly active on the Autarch and unit it has joined. Spac Marines need not get all the LD goodies, considering Eldar also live a long time and process information much faster.

Kalec
13-10-2009, 23:15
More special characters.
Buff phoenix Lords, toss in a Warp Spider pseudo-PL, let each PL make their aspect able to be taken as troops.
Move Mind War to the Warlock, buff Eldrich Storm. Doom, Guide, and Fortune are plenty powerful.
Give Autarchs access to all specialist exarch gear.
Seer Council on bikes limited to 3 members strong.
Give shurikan catapults 18" range, points drop for guardians, let them take support weapons as their heavy, let them take a second heavy at 20-strong.
Make Avengers a bit cheaper.
Make GJBs a bit cheaper, squad size of 6 to 12, 1 heavy per 4 members.
Scrops and Banshees and Warp Spiders slightly cheaper, buff biting blade and mirrorswords, change the WS exarch power that now does nothing to make it do something cool.
Move wraithguard to troops.
Make Vypers cheaper.
Make the Falcon cheaper, make its weapon options a bit cheaper, make the second weapon optional instead of mandatory.
Let the wraithsword give the WL an extra attack. Let the WL take heavy flamers instead of flamers, with the appropriate points hike.

Melchiah
13-10-2009, 23:15
It is fine and it wont be due out for sometime, what is really needed is an updated FAQ from GW.:angel:

Melchiah
13-10-2009, 23:25
Move Mind War to the Warlock, buff Eldrich Storm.
What would be interesting


Give Autarchs access to all specialist exarch gear.
Is this needed? some here and there might be nice.


Give shurikan catapults 18" range, points drop for guardians, let them take support weapons as their heavy, let them take a second heavy at 20-strong/
Make Avengers a bit cheaper.
The only thing i dont like about making all shuriken catapults 18", is thats kinda why you take Dires. making guide a radius power should be fine enough.

change the WS exarch power that now does nothing to make it do something cool.

Make the Falcon cheaper, make its weapon options a bit cheaper, make the second weapon optional instead of mandatory. make the falcon cheaper by making it mandatory, 115 is what it should cost after buying the secondary weapon but before the veheile upgrades.


Some ideas i had also to my other post was. Veheiles for an Assault ramp adn an "exarch spirit stone" allowing BS

Gwyidion
13-10-2009, 23:29
An alternative to the basically-unused heavy support weapon platforms, is to spread these weapons around the codex.

Falcons may exchange their pulse laser for a twin-linked HS weapon (at cost).

Wraithlords may select a single heavy support weapon, simultaneously gaining slow and purposeful.

Guardian squads may select regular heavy weapons OR heavy support platforms, at appropriate cost - the support weapons remain move or fire.

and then revamp all the weapons to make them more appealing.

This gets at the problem of crowded HS FoC slots in the codex - they now have reapers, wraithlords, prisms, falcons, platforms, and walkers.
Walkers -> fast attack (buff swooping hawks and bikes, and spiders a bit, and they have enough to compete with that they won't be the 'default' FA choice)

Reapers -> elites, combined with wraithguard -> troops (and make wraithguard 8-12/squad

Platforms - delete and spread about the codex

Now heavy support has Wraithlords, Prisms, and Falcons - it occurs to me that keeping Reapers here wouldn't be so bad, in order to give a HS option for every general type of unit (infantry, tank, MC).


On the guardian thing, i think the solution is to allow them more heavy weapons (1 per 6 or 7 guardians a squad) and to leave shuricats alone. Let guardians serve the role of tank/support weapon crew, as they should be sequestered away from front line combat. The shuricat then becomes more of a personal defense weapon, rather than intended to be an offensive gun. As it is now, it is basically for defending should an enemy squad get close, but with only 1 platform, their damage output is pitiful. Allow for more platforms in foot squads and make it clear guardians are the tank drivers, and i think guardians have their role for the next codex.

Splog
14-10-2009, 00:11
I'd like to see various points adjustments.

A few ideas here, some I'm more keen on than others:

'Wraithwardens' - Alternate wraithguard unit. Something like: Lose wraithcannons and gain glaive/polearm type weapon. Counts as a power weapon that can re-roll missed attacks, and for each unsaved wound a model suffers it must make a leadership roll, upon a failed roll the model dies and is removed from play. Dire-wraith-powerweapons. The idea is to make them good at taking out low numbers of powerful models (though not vehicles) in close combat, but be rubbish against swarms and at range.. so hopefully a CC wraithguard.

Guardians - I don't know, but Something Needs To Be Done. Semi obvious choice is to give them range 18", but then what to do with Dire Avengers? Rending is probably too much.

Wraithlords - duplicate weapons don't count as twin linked. Aside from the 'small arms' weapon selection is 1-3, with a maximum of two heavy weapons and two swords. An additional sword gives +1 A (and looks cool). [Possibly Aspected Wraithlords?]

Swooping Hawks - blah, Something Needs To Be Done.

Wave Serpents count as Assault vehicles? Or too powerful?

Webway - can 'gate in' reserves or give any (or nearly) any unit deepstrike for a set or % points cost.

A return of the Dark Reaper targeting vanes - perhaps ignore cover saves that are granted due to high speed, and/or Reapers count as having AA mounts.

Warp Spiders - 50/50 split between liking them as they and wanting to see their weapon changed back to its original spirit.. something like: Template S4 AP5 Assault 1, use target's I instead of T. Vs vehicles 4 + D6 with an additional D6 if you get a 6.

Harlequin character upgrades to be more characterful.

Return of the Executioner psychic power.

Warlock units as an Elite option.

'Battleseer' - Warlocks who have become stuck on their path. Squad leader upgrade. Boost to Warlock powers/new ones (with focus on daemon hunting?). Profile change something like LD+1, save becomes 3+, witch-weapons gain rending (last two due to development of psychic abilities).


Autarch - I feel the stats are too high for the concept. Drop points down (55 to match the Farseer?), change the stat line to an Exarch with 2 wounds and provide 'some other' strategy special ability.

'Proper' Exarchs - HQ option. Stats as current autarch. Swap force field for eternal warrior. As well as autarch equipment selection include all the exarch 'sergeant' options in the same way. Up to 3 exarch powers (any aspect).

Phoenix Lords - price drop (and harmonised?). Additional exarch power (see later). Their aspect counts as troops. Not sure what happens with Asurmen.

Make Phoenix Lords for Shining Spears and Warp Spiders.

Avatar - include immunity to plasma weapons. Torn 50/50 between wanting it to stay as is (+ plasma immunity), or make some changes to reflect the aspects (or rather reinforce that the Aspects are like aspects of Khaine), or at least the primary ones, though this would probably make it too expensive. e.g. give Fire Dragon exarch a power that provides the same immunities as the avatar has, give the Avatar Defend, etc.

'Sergeant' Exarchs - replace all of the non special / non unique exarch weapon options, allow them to pick up to two exarch powers out of a selection of four for their aspect. The third power is from the extra additional power their Phoenix Lord currently has. The fourth is new. Exarch powers to focus on the individual and not the squad.

(as examples)

Fire Dragon Exarch:
- Lose option to get the Dragon Breath Flamer.
- Gain option to replace meltagun for dual inferno pistols ; basically an asssault 2 inferno pistol and counts as 2x closecombat weapons.
- Gain option to replace equipment with 'dragon armature'; counts as flamer and in close combat as a power weapon that has 5 +2D6 armour penetration
- Gain option for power Feel No Pain
- Gain option for power 'Walk through fire' (has same immunities as the Avatar)

Striking Scorpion Exarch:
- Gain option for Stealth
- Gain option for +1 S to profile

Dark Reaper Exarch:
- Lose option for EML
- Lose option for Shuriken Cannon
- Some weapon or other
- Missile launcher variant with two firing modes both range 48":
Melta - Strength 6, AP 3, Heavy 2, Melta
Mono-filament Strength 2, AP -, Heavy 1, Large Blast
- Gain option for relentless (not the squad!)
- Gain option for Acute senses

Shining Spear Exarch:
- lose option for power weapon
- lose option for shuriken cannon
- Gain option for 'moonspear', as per laser lance but does not count as a power weapon, ignores invulnerable saves, counts as strength 10 for the purposes of instant death
- Some kind of shield giving a 5+ invulnerable save and reduces the chance to hit the exarch?
- new power (?)
- new power - Rampage; consolidation move is up to 6" may be used to move into assault, assault not fought that turn but the unit will count as charging in the next assault phase



And while I'm wishing... I'd really like to see Storm Shields change to be '+2 invulnerable' to a max of 3+ so that they're 3+ with terminator armour and otherwise 5+. Or at least make them much bigger in relation to the model.

jams86
14-10-2009, 00:26
i'd like to see plastic wraithguard first and foremost.

then i'd like the option to make said plastic wraithguard shooty or CC orientated

i'd like to bin the support platforms and make the weapons tank mounted. i'd love to see a falcon-sized cobra variant with a d-cannon that works in the same manner as the vindicator.

all plastic aspects, especially resculpts of the reapers. the current sculpts are hideous.

please for the love of god release goodwin's new jetbikes.

reduce the cost of the wave serpent. 100pts for what is effectively a floating razorback is a bit silly IMO. i'm not asking for a massive drop in points, ideally i'd like to see the basic WS armed with tl shurcannon at ~75-80 points.

improved BS for the falcon

3++ save on farseers

cheaper pheonix lords with FW resculpts and some sort of invulnerable save. also the aspect the PL belongs to becoming troops is interesting. however only allowing 1 PL per army or imposing a point threshold on when they can be chosen could be a good way of controlling spamming

i like the idea of the CC wraith lord. i think the option to tailor your 'lord to a specific aspect could be a fun idea too.

there's my tuppence worth :D

darker4308
14-10-2009, 00:35
I think it is going to be a very long time before eldar see a new codex. Like a 4 years plus or so. I've also heard rumors that 5th is intended to last for a decade. I mean we're iconic, but there are very few people that stopped playing eldar when 5th edition came along as to be honest ... we're still doing ok.

What I would actually like to see is maybe a reduction in the point cost of guardians and the return of a viable footslogging eldar force. I would also like to see options for an actual harlie centered force. Also ... fix the damn wraithcannon!

Gwyidion
14-10-2009, 00:39
I think most people here would agree that they don't think an eldar codex is likely - I can't disagree that it is a diverse and still fairly competitive codex, but I think that what sparked this discussion is some rumors going around over in the rumor codex of an eldar codex next year.

Bunnahabhain
14-10-2009, 00:43
To everyone who is suggesting changing wave serpents- DON'T

They are currently arguably the best transport in the game, and are sensibly priced, although the weapons costs might want tweaking.
If you give them assualt ramps, they would then need a massive price increase ie 60%, as the giving harliquins/banshees a guaranteed charge into combat without getting shot at would be so powerful. This would then make them too expense for any other use.

Absolutionis
14-10-2009, 01:32
I personaly thing the current Dex is quite fine, but I would love to see some changes made when the codex is finally re-done.

Mainly: Exodites. I'd -love- to see the Exodite Eldar made into an army list. The other thing is:

Bring back the Craftworld Eldar codex. (even if it's only added into the Eldar codex.) I think the current codex makes it easy to theme your Eldar army, but it leaves some things to be desired.

(i.e. Iyanden army.)Everything from Craftworld Eldar can be done right now except for the Court of the Young King and arguably, the Black Guardians.

For Iyanden, you can run Wraithguard as troops.
For Saim-Hann, you can run Jetbikes as troops and your HQ on Jetbikes.
For Ulthwe, you can run a Seer Council and perhaps even Avengers as Counts-as Black Guardians.
For Alaitoc, you can run Rangers and even Pathfinders.

Really, unless you really lament the loss of the Court of the Young King, everything from Craftworld Eldar can be done in the 4th edition codex. I never understood why people lament the loss of Craftworld Eldar that much.

Lusall
14-10-2009, 02:06
Everything from Craftworld Eldar can be done right now except for the Court of the Young King and arguably, the Black Guardians.

For Iyanden, you can run Wraithguard as troops.
For Saim-Hann, you can run Jetbikes as troops and your HQ on Jetbikes.
For Ulthwe, you can run a Seer Council and perhaps even Avengers as Counts-as Black Guardians.
For Alaitoc, you can run Rangers and even Pathfinders.

Really, unless you really lament the loss of the Court of the Young King, everything from Craftworld Eldar can be done in the 4th edition codex. I never understood why people lament the loss of Craftworld Eldar that much.


I had no clue you could take Wrathguard as troops. (Shows how much I read -that- codex.)
But I would say the court of the young king should come back. (And there's a few other things missing.) And the Avengers counting as Black Guardians really doesn't solve the problem of not having them. At least, not in my mind.

But to refine what I said; I'd rather have expanded fluff on each of the major craftworlds. (That could include expanding fluff for more recently added craftworlds.)

With that aside...I'd like to see Exodites. (That would be the major point of my post.) :)

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 02:14
Everything from Craftworld Eldar can be done right now except for the Court of the Young King and arguably, the Black Guardians.

For Iyanden, you can run Wraithguard as troops.
For Saim-Hann, you can run Jetbikes as troops and your HQ on Jetbikes.
For Ulthwe, you can run a Seer Council and perhaps even Avengers as Counts-as Black Guardians.
For Alaitoc, you can run Rangers and even Pathfinders.

Really, unless you really lament the loss of the Court of the Young King, everything from Craftworld Eldar can be done in the 4th edition codex. I never understood why people lament the loss of Craftworld Eldar that much.

Because it was pants on heads retarded broken cheesy goodness and it reminded our cold xenos hearts of the better days of 2nd edition.

jams86
14-10-2009, 02:26
isn't the court of the young king an apocalypse formation?

ETA: yes it is http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180091_Eldar_Datasheet_-_The_Great_Court_of_the_Young_King.pdf

Squallish
14-10-2009, 02:42
Ok, this may get long. If I don't say any changes, assume it's exactly as it is in the current codex.

HQ:

Farseer + 70 pts = 125pts base, includes 2 powers, Runes of Wit/Ward for free
Powers: Fortune = same, Guide = 6" bubble, Doom = same, Eldritch Storm = 24" S3 AP1, Mind War = 2d6 take highest
New Powers: Foresight: targets an ally unit, reduces the Cover save of their target unit by 2
Peril: 12" Shooting attack, hits automatically, inflicts a Perils of the Warp attack on a model on a 3+, if a 1 is rolled, the Farseer suffers the attack
Wargear: Spirit Stones = 25pts, Bike 30pts, Spear = free, Runes Stones = 3rd power, 25pts

Warlocks: 3-5, I5, Ld9, +5pts, 1 power/model is free; Standalone HQ choice (no seer needed), can split any number off to join any Guardian squads (like Wolfguard)
Powers: Enhance = Furious Charge; Embolden may reroll leadership tests, fail tests at will and regroup if below 50%; the rest as is
New Power: Augment = adds 12" to the shooting attack range (psychic or shooting weapon) of a single member of his squad
Wargear: Bikes = 30pts/model, Spears = free

Autarch: Can take any Wargear or powers that any Exarch can, powers only apply to squads of the aspect they're taken from. Prices too numerous to list, but appropriately costed for an IC. If on a bike, counts Jetbikes as Scoring.

Avatar: The Wailing Doom can be used as a Flamer or Melta in his shooting phase. Can take a Court (1 Scorpion, Dragon, Banshee, Reaper, Avenger Exarch) for 150pts. Exarch can take any upgrades they want from their entry.

Phoenix Lords: Their aspect squad counts as scoring unit. 4+ Invulnerable save. -30pts. Add a Spider and Shining Spear PLord.

Yriel: T4, +20pts

Eldrad: +40pts, Gives all Guardians either BS4 or WS4.

*New*
Solitaire: 3 wound Harlequin, 4+ Invulnerable, Kiss + Power Weapon, Eternal Warrior; if attached to a squad with a Shadowseer, can force the enemy to reroll their spotting distance for Veil. ~175pts

Iyanna Yriennal: 3 Wound Warlock profile. Has all 5 Warlock powers. Makes Wraithguard Troops. 1 Wraithlord may be taken as an Elite choice. ~190pts

Elites:

Fire Dragons: +2pts each, Firepike = free for Exarch, Crack Shot = whole squad reduces target Cover save by 1 = 30pts
Banshees: War Shout = Furious Charge, 20pts; Acrobatic, 10 pts; fix wording of masks to work 100% on cover
Scorpions: Scout, MtC for free, Fleet once per game as an Exarch power = 10pts
Harlequins: Fusion Pistols = 5 pts, Death Jester = can add an Executioner, +15pts
Wraithguard: -3pts, 15" Range, no longer Troops at 10+SSeer (see Iyanna)

Troops:
Guardian Defenders: 4+ Sv, 18" S3AP6 Assault 2 = Shuripults, can take 1 Heavy Weapon / 6 models.
Storm Guardians: I5, Plasma Grenades!!! 1 Flamer/Fusion Gun / 6 models @ 5pts.
Dire Avengers: 21" range, can replace with Shuripistol/CCW/Plasma Grenades for free
Guardian Jetbikes: moved back to Fast Attack
Rangers: -4pts, Pathfinders still +5pt upgrade, but gain BS5.
*New* Support Guardians: can take 1 Support Platform (35pts) / 6 models. S3 Lasblasters as weapons.

Fast Attack:
Guardian Jetbikes: (Troops with Autarch on a bike), otherwise the same
Shining Spears: -5 pts, Laser Lancers are power weapons.. double S on charge.
Swooping Hawks: S4 Lasblasters, Haywire Grenades = glance 2,3, pen 4+, Web of Skulls: Power Weapon, each 6 to hit rolled on the first set of attacks allows another attack
War Walkers: lower cost on Spirit Stones and most Heavy Weapons
Vypers: -15pts, CTM = 15pts/model, not open-topped anymore
Spiders: moved to Heavy Support

Heavy Support:
Dark Reapers: 5-10, 20pts, come with Shuricannons; can replace with Reaper Launchers for +5pts; Exarch can take Relentless for 25pts or Crack Shot (see Fire Dragons); no more Fast Shot
Warp Spiders: +3 pts/model, don't lose models on the 2nd jump, 2 models may upgrade their shots to AP1
Falcon: 8 person capacity, same price
Prism: fine as is, maybe add CTM for 30pts
Wraithlord: 2nd Wraithsword adds +1 Attack, Wraithshield = 4++ in CC for 15pts

General changes:
- Heavy Weapons (Brightlance, Starcannon, EML, Scatter Laser) should cost 15pts on BS3, 20pts on BS4; Shuricannons for 5pts/10pts on all platforms (reflected by BS)
- Exarch universal upgrade cost reduced to 10pts
- New Vehicle Upgrade: Gems of Stability (or whatever) allow you to count S6 or below weapons as Defensive, 5 pts
- Crystal Targeting Matrix: Allows you to fire during your movement phase

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 03:20
Why not have Warlocks operate like Wolf guard from Space Wolves? Highly customizable unit and can be added to various squads to enhance their effectiveness or at least allow for individual members of the unit to join other squads.

Edit:
I would also like to see Conceal made to be a 4+ cover save :P

Squallish
14-10-2009, 03:29
That's what I just said! :P

Gwyidion
14-10-2009, 03:30
I don't like so many of those changes....

Don't make ranges into weird ranges like 15" or 21" - for simplicity, if nothing else, the 6" incremental scale works very well.

Farseer - hmmm. you've increased the cost of a fortune/doomseer by 5 points, i believe. and I think the eldritch storm upgrade is too good. You'll kill half of anything T4 you hit without an invuln (because you will doom them, of course).


I can't see any reason at all to take an exarch court - all the units fight in completely different ways. the reaper exarch can't be used if any of the others want to fight, and vice versa. Not to mention none of them can fleet.

Iyanna should be a farseer, not a warlock, and the wraithlord should be an unlocked HQ/FoC-free choice, in my opinion, not an elite.

Scorpions - no 'fleet once a game'.

Solitaire - not exactly a harlequin fluff buff, but isn't this guy always, always, always alone? If so, I think it would be cool to make him a normal sized model, similar to a phoenix lord in stats, and then give him the MC rule, and no special weapons in combat (as you have it, he doesn't get +1 attack, because he has 2 special weapons)

wraithguard - 18", i think more bold changes could be made to wraithguard.

G. Defenders .... no 4+. they stay 5+, lasblaster default or 18" shuricat. in either case 1plat/6guardians

Dire Avengers - depends, if guardians go lasblaster, they remain as is, with a 2 pt drop. if guardians get 18" shuricat, DAs get rending on their shuricats (or 24")

G. Jetbikes remain troops in all cases.

Support guardians - merge with defender guardians, with the stipulation that the squad must select all heavy support weapons or all heavy weapon platforms

Fast Attack - not bad, get rid of web of skulls. and I have no idea why warp spiders would go to heavy support. move them back.

and, warp spiders - yes on the 2nd jump change, no on the ap1 change, no on the price change

reapers.... reaper launcher should be standard. maybe change its profile, but it should be standard. and 20 points... might be cheap.


edit for the conceal thing, random idea - 10 points for each improvement.

on the other hand... 50 points for a permanent 2+ cover save is just a wee bit too good.

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 03:53
That's what I just said! :P

Ah, you said guardians ;)

I meant anything. :D

I really want an assault vehicle for Eldar but Wave Serpents would be too common. Falcon Variant fits this the best in my mind.

Squallish
14-10-2009, 03:53
I don't like so many of those changes....

Don't make ranges into weird ranges like 15" or 21" - for simplicity, if nothing else, the 6" incremental scale works very well.

I like 3" increments for uniqueness.. and 24" Dire Avenegrs would be pretty broken.


Farseer - hmmm. you've increased the cost of a fortune/doomseer by 5 points, i believe. and I think the eldritch storm upgrade is too good. You'll kill half of anything T4 you hit without an invuln (because you will doom them, of course).

We all know that the Farseer with Doom and Fortune is the most efficient HQ in the list.. so he deserves a points increase. And actually he get Witnessing for free.. so he's 5 pts cheaper this way.
The enemy will get cover saves... and it still can scatter. I'm basically trying to buff up the other powers to be as powerful as Fortune or Doom on their own.


I can't see any reason at all to take an exarch court - all the units fight in completely different ways. the reaper exarch can't be used if any of the others want to fight, and vice versa. Not to mention none of them can fleet.

Mainly in there for Biel-tan fluff-nuts. But with special rules able to be used via special rule (which I didn't really explain, so I can see why you'd think it's bad).. imagine the unit with Shadowstrike to infiltrate, War Shout for Furious Charge, and Defend for -1 Attack. It would be pretty sexy, to be honest.


Iyanna should be a farseer, not a warlock, and the wraithlord should be an unlocked HQ/FoC-free choice, in my opinion, not an elite.

In the fluff she's a Spiritseer.. which is a warlock.


Scorpions - no 'fleet once a game'.

Just an idea to make them more versatile.


Solitaire - not exactly a harlequin fluff buff, but isn't this guy always, always, always alone? If so, I think it would be cool to make him a normal sized model, similar to a phoenix lord in stats, and then give him the MC rule, and no special weapons in combat (as you have it, he doesn't get +1 attack, because he has 2 special weapons)

True. Should make him more of a standalone character.


wraithguard - 18", i think more bold changes could be made to wraithguard.

I feel 18" on that strong a gun would make them pretty powerful for their price. They're effective now and only need a small buff or two to make them 100% viable.


G. Defenders .... no 4+. they stay 5+, lasblaster default or 18" shuricat. in either case 1plat/6guardians

Dire Avengers - depends, if guardians go lasblaster, they remain as is, with a 2 pt drop. if guardians get 18" shuricat, DAs get rending on their shuricats (or 24")

Support guardians - merge with defender guardians, with the stipulation that the squad must select all heavy support weapons or all heavy weapon platforms


I just wanted them to all be unique, with unique roles.


G. Jetbikes remain troops in all cases.

I'm a firm believer in Faster models being Fast Attack. You can take them as Troops with an Autarch on Bike (like SM Captain).. which is how they SHOULD be led.. not by a Seer Council on bikes like most people do now.


Fast Attack - not bad, get rid of web of skulls. and I have no idea why warp spiders would go to heavy support. move them back.

and, warp spiders - yes on the 2nd jump change, no on the ap1 change, no on the price change

Web of Skulls was a fun old weapon that many want to see return. Maybe just let Baharroth have it. Warp Spiders I moved to Heavy Support for three reasons. better # Aspect / FoC Slot balance. Currently Elite has 3, FA has 3, HS has 1. Second, to take away from Hawk Competition. Third, to add a different type of Heavy Support choice.. a moving infantry one.

I also wanted to move Scorpions or Banshees to Troops to make each slot have 2 Aspects. I'm thinking a -1A Scorpion choice at 14pts would be pretty solid as a secondary fluffy choice for Alaitoc.. and remove some of the CC competition from Elite. Would also allow a CC Eldar Army: Court, 3 Banshees, 6 Scorpions, Shining Spears or WeboSkull Hawks.


reapers.... reaper launcher should be standard. maybe change its profile, but it should be standard. and 20 points... might be cheap.

It's just an idea.. the shuricannon models let them take (expensive) ablative wound if you set them up as long range shooters. They also really suffer from cover in 5th edition, so making them cheaper with an expensive cover-negating power (new crack shot) lets them fit into their role as intended better, imo.

It's totally open to moving around.. I just wanted all Craftworlds to unlock with HQs (Ulthwe = Eldrad, Iyanden = Iyanna, Saim Hann = Autarch on bike, Alaitoc = ??? was still thinking on this one, Biel-tan = Court of the Young King or Phoenix Lords)... and each slot to be internally and externally competitive.

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 03:56
There is literally no reason why shuriken catapults shouldn't be brought into line with other basic weapons. Same statline 18"
Make Avenger Catapults AP 4 to account for their targetters. (Or rending. Or 24")

Guardians should have 4+ armour. It makes no sense that an advanced race that is trying to survive above all things puts their woodcutters and basket weavers in a full bodysuit that is the same protection as a flak vest and a helmet.
And it's really just a translation error from 2nd (Guardians had 5+, Guardsmen had 6+, Guardsmen got a boost but Guardians didn't?)

Aspect armour should be 3+ all around. It makes no sense that it isn't (again, Marine armour was 4+ and so was aspect armour. And Marine armour got pushed to 3+ but aspect armour didn't?)

I like the powers Foresight and Peril. Seems very Eldar.

I think Eldritch storm should cause all affected models to take difficult terrain tests next turn, either in addition to or in place of pinning (which is nearly useless these days)
It should definitely be Strength 4. I'd still allow armour saves though. (maybe AP 6)

I've been toying with the idea of removing the Autarch from a combat role and replacing him with an Menshad Korum (kind of a High Exarch) or a hero of some kind, who could be variously a Pirate Prince, a Wild Lord of Saim-hann, or something similar. Basically, they would be a kind of wandering hero/general kind of guy armed with relics (simple to the Spear of Twlight) and fated to do battle against the enemies of the Eldar.

I personally find the current Autarch fluff and role to be ridiculous and see him as two wound hero at best who is primarily meant to help assist a squad on any given front and hinder enemy reserves/special abilities while bolstering the cohesion of his own army.

Iyanna is a Spiritseer and always has been. End of discussion. (Three wounds though?) It would be nice if she had her Exarchlord with her.

Wraithguard could use some variety and generally should be re-worked. (They're not bad now, but they could be more interesting)

Oh, and I cannot agree with Enhance granting furious charge. The way it is now is just perfect.

As for the Warp Spiders in heavy support, I could see it. But they might need to gain something, either making them stronger in close combat against vehicles or monstrous creatures to really do them any good. Otherwise you're competing for space with the anti-infantry kings, the Dark Reapers and there's just no contest. Strength 5 ap 3 at 48" is always going to win out over deathspinners.

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 04:18
Actually, Scorpions could just gain fleet. I mean right now it is to balance out the fact they have "heavier" armor but Marines can now fleet with Shrike, so why not?

Gwyidion
14-10-2009, 04:21
I can't agree with the changes to make the future iyanden lists. Your forcing taking a 190 pt HQ which doesn't add much to the list to unlock taking overpriced units with a pitiful offensive punch (say what you want, wraithguard just don't hit that hard, even at range, its mediocre for a 300+ point investment). As it stands now, you are taking a 4ed wraith list, and making all of them play at -190 points, because the player needs to buy a warlock HQ (that doesn't really do anything) in addition to everything else they would normally buy.

For starters, drop the warlock powers, but allow her to choose 2 free of charge (destructor and embolden are useless in a wraith list).
Iyanna should negate wraithsight checks for all wraith models while she is on the table, and grant FNP to any wraith squad she is attached to. She should get the standard 'witchblade that ignores armor saves' upgrade for HQs. Ld10, not that it matters. Add +1 WS/BS, 1 attack because she is a character, and i think you have justified a 190 point warlock.


I think the way scorpions and banshees are now is good - they are close enough that threads abound on forums debating which is better - all of which never reach a conclusion other than 'scorpions vs horde, banshee vs doomed MEQ', which is the way it should be. Add fleet and you take away a reason to take banshees. Also, -1 A on scorpions and you take away a reason to take scorpions. Honestly, i think they are both fine.

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 04:25
This might sound crazy, but I think Autarchs should become Guardian squad upgrades instead of Warlocks. This assumes a 4+ armour save for guardians.

The Autarch has WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I5 A2 Ld9 sv4+
And a narrow range of equipment options. The number of Autarchs in your army then has an effect determined by a table - 2 Autarchs = X, 3 Autarchs = Y effect. A bit like Njal's Lord of Tempests rule.

The Menshad Kourum then becomes an HQ choice, an uber Exarch that can choose from any shrine's equipment and/or Exarch Wargear.

1 Farseers and 0-5 Warlocks are a single HQ choice. Warlocks are WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv4+ frontline fighters that are ICs and can join other units. Witchblades are 2+ to wound power weapons.

Aspect squads can take an Exarch and the Exarch can be upgraded with Spirit Armour. This represents the different power levels of Exarchs based on their age and 'oneness' with their armour. Some exarchs never get special exarch armour and so don't tap into exarch souls for power.

Just some crazy zany ideas from someone who likes the eldar but hates the eldar.

Hellebore

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 04:30
Just some crazy zany ideas from someone who likes the eldar but hates the eldar.

Hellebore

Why not, more Eldar fun for everyone!

I am not a fan of Autarchs being upgrades as I view them as being master strategists and their HQ slot makes sense, they just need access to some real exarch gear with possibly options for some of those Exarch skills and they would be really useful.

Also, warlocks as squad leaders make sense as they are more common but these are just my opinions.

I would love it if witchblades were power weapons but that would be so horribly broken with guide.

Edit: @Gwyidion
Taking a special character for unlocking troops seems to be a standard practice anymore. Or at least scoring.

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 04:37
Why not, more Eldar fun for everyone!

I am not a fan of Autarchs being upgrades as I view them as being master strategists and their HQ slot makes sense, they just need access to some real exarch gear with possibly options for some of those Exarch skills and they would be really useful.


How can someone that hasn't become an exarch do that? Not even normal aspect warriors can use exarch weapons or exarch powers and they are better at their aspect than an Autarch is.



I would love it if witchblades were power weapons but that would be so horribly broken with guide.


You mean having up to 5 IC warlocks with 4 attacks on the charge wounding on 2+ and ignoring armour is broken? Warlocks used to have stats that made space marines cry. It's only since 3rd ed that they've been relegated to sidekick. They used to be their own HQ choice.

Hellebore

Kelderaith
14-10-2009, 04:41
Oh well, I had this idea of creating a thread about "how to balance Eldar just a bit more" even though they are a good codex in itself. Seems this rumour just started such a threat, why not participate! Some of my ideas are similar/the same as other people but I will still list them.

Quick Edit : Warning, the following block of text could randomdly stun you for 2 to 4 seconds.

HQ:

-Farseer: improve guide a bit, eldritch storm and mind war a lot, maybe add 1-2 new power, make it more expensive but "free power" like most other psyckers.

-Autarch: Make it a lot less combat oriented and a lot more strategy oriented (think advisors in IG codex, only 2-3 buff by himself).

-Generic Exarch Type HQ: This would be the combat oriented HQ for eldars, make 1 of his shrine warrior squads scoring, just basically make him a 2 or 3 wounds exarch with maybe 1-2 more option.

-Avatar: Add plasma to immunity, change nothing else.

Elite:

Striking Scorpions: doesn't need change as far as I know.

Banshee: make their exarch power a bit more worthwhile, and change the wording on banshee mask to be more explicit

Fire Dragons: maybe add an option to choose before the game wether they are wielding Flamers or Meltas, I always seem to capture the image that they are the master of fire weapons, not only melta (they are the aspect of destruction, not vehicule destruction).

Wraithguard made more useful (my thought would be making their range 18", or keep 12" but make them assault 2 to make them threatening enough).
I also like the CC variant proposed by other people to be a really interesting idea. wouldn't go as far as making them as good as assault termies though, T6 and Str 5 are worth something (plus they can benefit from some eldar psychic power tremendiously).

Harlequin: I will make a general comment about them at the end of this "wishlist"

Troops:

Guardians (shooting version) made worthwhile either by changing their weapon (thinking of rapid fire 24" same stats to really differenciate from Dire Avenger) or by improving them a lot (as others have proposed) but making them a bit more pricier accordingly.

Storm Guardians are fine imho, taken either in large footslogging squads or minimal "template wielding" squad mounted in Wave Serpent, they are both very viable options.

Make Ranger and Pathfinder a bit more anti infantry oriented (more of a sniper problem in general than these particular units though).

Dire Avenger are fine as it is imho, they could be improved to be a lot more versatile but I think they would suffer a point increase if it were the case (not that I would mind really, I really see Eldar as being a low model count army anyway).

Eldar Jetbikes: just release the models, I think they are fine as it is (though I would change their catapult accordingly to their Guardian Counterpart).

Fast Attack:

Warp Spider: can't think of much, they seem rather good as it is.

Swooping Hawks: Need a major overhaul, was thinking of making them a fast response anti infantry unit by making their lasblaster str 4 pa 4 assault 3 weapons with 18 range, basically being a bit like dire avenger but a bit more specialised anti mid-infantry, not too much high str not to suffer comparison between them and warp spider. Could be another thing though, they just need a major change that works for them.

Viper: Change some weapon price, make it BS 4.

Heavy Support:

Falcon: Make it BS 4, ajust price tag of some weapons.

Fire Prism: Keep as such, maybe reduce the Holofield option cost a bit because it suffers twice as much as the falcon from a weapon destroyed result.

Wraithlord: Had nothing to propose here but I must admit I like the double sword or sword and shield option here. I would temper the shield option though, something like 5++ only works in CC, Wraithlord are quite good as they are presently too, wouldnt want them to be the no brainer choice of HS like they were before...

Reapers: hum... I am quite stuck on these one, I would probably reduce their cost and make them mobile fire support, or make them immobile (as they are) but a lot more devastating. As they are, I see them as barely a nuisance to most opponent, covers negating all their killing capacity except for the 80 points exarch of the squad.

Heavy Support platform: make them be troop that can be taken 1 per 2 squad of Guardian Defender taken or something similar (a bit akin to IG heavy weapon squad). I don't like the idea of making them alternative to the mobile heavy weapon of Guardian Defender because the whole disadvantage of them is being somewhat fragile, something they lose if they are hidden in 19+ bodies imho.

War Walker: Make them Bs 4, ajust price tag of some weapons.

Basically, as you probably noticed, I would like Eldar to be majorly BS 4 (except for Guardians and Jetbikes, which are both reservist/patrol unit imho). I hardly see why Eldars would give their precious warmachines to civilians who have undertaken just a basic military training, it makes no sense. Just explain in the fluff that there is a path for being a pilot, something like focusing on "feeling" the entire machine like the extension of your own body or something.

Also, on the note of Special Character, I would like (like so many others) to have Phoenix Lord be a much much better choice (albeit being 0-1 choice). As they are, they are utter rubbish (they don't even have grenades for ******* sakes, I've seen Maugan Ra dying to a space wolf scout sergeant...).

I would also like the return of many Special character that we had (or just new ones) for other main craftworld, as it is, we only have Eldrad and Yriel, and while they are quite good, I really miss Ariena and Nuadu (and would like a Alaitoc pathfinder one, who would put the oh so frequently seen Tellion to shame ^^)

As a side note for Harlequins, I would really really wish (but that's just blatant wishlist here, more than any other things out there) to have a "harlequin entry" on all of the slots availables. I think GW made a great job of integrating Craftworld into their basic codex, but I would really like to be able to build an all-out harlequin army without proxies and count as.

To sum it up:

-Great Harlequin and Shadow Seer as HQs
-Solitaire (0-1) and potentially another option here for elites
-Mimes (scoutish style of troop) and basic Troupe (what we have in elite right now) as Troops (can only be taken as troops instead of elite if lead by a great harlequin for example)
-Venom and Harlequin Jetbikes squad as Fast Attacks (Venom is a more lightly armed Viper that serves as transport for small harlequin units, think Land Speeder Storm).
-Wraithlords and Death Jester Squads as Heavy Support (with small rules twinkage to make them work well).

As a side note, I think like quite a few people that such a codex is unlikely to show up as quick as we think, as more armies need it more than us (and as such I am not holding my breath whatsoever) but at the same time I can understand the plausibility of such a rumor, it would indeed require very little work to do and would result in substantial income for GW.

All in all, let's wait and see (and wishlist while we do haha).

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 04:45
How can someone that hasn't become an exarch do that? Not even normal aspect warriors can use exarch weapons or exarch powers and they are better at their aspect than an Autarch is.


They are the master leaders and potentially expert warriors. Exarch gear to me, is just as shortcut to making them useful in battle. I would like to add an autarch if I want to add "hit" to a unit like dire avengers that don't normally have it and use Farseers to enhance effectiveness. Yriel is a good example of someone who does this.




You mean having up to 5 IC warlocks with 4 attacks on the charge wounding on 2+ and ignoring armour is broken? Warlocks used to have stats that made space marines cry. It's only since 3rd ed that they've been relegated to sidekick. They used to be their own HQ choice.

Hellebore

An HQ level Warlock would be awesome :)

Well, 6 (including farseer) is 18 attacks and with enhance are hitting on 3's and guide gives them a reroll so about 15 or so hits? Followed by wounding on 2's with only invul saves? Wouldn't the cost be really high for that option too?

Though, I really would like Farseers to have upgraded witchblades or the Warlock HQ though that might conflict with Autarch option if they went with what I was thinking.

Squallish
14-10-2009, 04:48
I can't agree with the changes to make the future iyanden lists. Your forcing taking a 190 pt HQ which doesn't add much to the list to unlock taking overpriced units with a pitiful offensive punch (say what you want, wraithguard just don't hit that hard, even at range, its mediocre for a 300+ point investment). As it stands now, you are taking a 4ed wraith list, and making all of them play at -190 points, because the player needs to buy a warlock HQ (that doesn't really do anything) in addition to everything else they would normally buy.

Well you're paying 190pts for a Warlock with all the powers. As solo models in my revision, that's 90 for the models.. so I agree to statline bumping.

Also, you don't have to put her in a Wraithguard squad... having all those powers can be used on a squad of Scorpions or Dire Avengers, for example. Also, Augment on a Wraithguard is a nice combo to help take out tanks!

Remember.. allowing 4 Wraithlords and smaller Wraithguard as Troops is a huge gain. You're not just stuck taking giant 10-man squads.. that's a lot for 190pts compared to say Pedro Kantor.

Imagine 4 Wraithlords = ~600pts, 4 x 5 Wraithguard = ~600pts, Iyanna + Avatar + 2 mounted Troops = ~650pts. That's a pretty solid and fluffy list.


For starters, drop the warlock powers, but allow her to choose 2 free of charge (destructor and embolden are useless in a wraith list).
Iyanna should negate wraithsight checks for all wraith models while she is on the table, and grant FNP to any wraith squad she is attached to. She should get the standard 'witchblade that ignores armor saves' upgrade for HQs. Ld10, not that it matters. Add +1 WS/BS, 1 attack because she is a character, and i think you have justified a 190 point warlock.

I agree with upping her statline/wargear to be in line with other Eldar SC HQs. And agree that eliminating Wraithsight would be a given. FNP may be over the top, as they're already quite resilient.


I think the way scorpions and banshees are now is good - they are close enough that threads abound on forums debating which is better - all of which never reach a conclusion other than 'scorpions vs horde, banshee vs doomed MEQ', which is the way it should be. Add fleet and you take away a reason to take banshees. Also, -1 A on scorpions and you take away a reason to take scorpions. Honestly, i think they are both fine.

It was an idea to balance Aspects across FoC slots.. allowing for fluffy Biel-tan lists without internal competition. The -1A for Fleet is a possible change to make them Troops.. because as they are now, they'd be too powerful to be scoring.

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 04:49
This might sound crazy, but I think Autarchs should become Guardian squad upgrades instead of Warlocks. This assumes a 4+ armour save for guardians.

The Autarch has WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I5 A2 Ld9 sv4+
And a narrow range of equipment options. The number of Autarchs in your army then has an effect determined by a table - 2 Autarchs = X, 3 Autarchs = Y effect. A bit like Njal's Lord of Tempests rule.

The Menshad Kourum then becomes an HQ choice, an uber Exarch that can choose from any shrine's equipment and/or Exarch Wargear.

1 Farseers and 0-5 Warlocks are a single HQ choice. Warlocks are WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W2 I5 A2 Ld8 Sv4+ frontline fighters that are ICs and can join other units. Witchblades are 2+ to wound power weapons.

Aspect squads can take an Exarch and the Exarch can be upgraded with Spirit Armour. This represents the different power levels of Exarchs based on their age and 'oneness' with their armour. Some exarchs never get special exarch armour and so don't tap into exarch souls for power.

Just some crazy zany ideas from someone who likes the eldar but hates the eldar.

Hellebore
Yes. All very good stuff.
I was thinking you could have some sort of squad leader upgrade for an aspect squad, with slightly improved stats and then the Exarchs become an IC that can be taken in addition, is powerful, specialized but expensive. Basically, you wouldn't have Exarchs on every squad, But the few Exarchs you would have would be a great boon.

Another thing, the Avatar is a really good model. It's incredibly cheap for what it does, I'd be happy if the price nearly doubled and it got put up to tricked out Carnifex/Greater Daemon levels (which suit it much better I think)

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 04:52
My standard rules for the Avatar are:

WS10 BS10 S7 T7 W4 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+

4++
Fleet
Monstrous creature
Inspiring

Suin Dellae
Choose to add +1 Attack or +1S in melee with each attack. Can fire like a heavy flamer or a meltagun.

And then a host of different abilities a little like Daemonic Gifts (things like increase meltagun range and S, conflagration that causes hits on enemy units in melee, etc).

EDIT: Costs as much as a bloodthirster

Hellebore

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 04:57
My standard rules for the Avatar are:

WS10 BS10 S7 T7 W4 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+

4++
Fleet
Monstrous creature
Inspiring

Suin Dellae
Choose to add +1 Attack or +1S in melee with each attack. Can fire like a heavy flamer or a meltagun.

And then a host of different abilities a little like Daemonic Gifts (things like increase meltagun range and S, conflagration that causes hits on enemy units in melee, etc).

EDIT: Costs as much as a bloodthirster

Hellebore

THAT Is an Avatar of WAR! :eek:

TheSanityAssassin
14-10-2009, 05:09
Not to get into the major swing of things, as I'm pretty happy with the general line of the codex...most things can find a use, while very little is "point+click=win".

Still, I'd like to see the BS 4 thing solved through some kind of upgrade, either a targeting array Tau style, or an Aspect pilot option. It always bugged me that Fire Prism's just...got BS 4 out of nowhere, with no explanation.

I'd also like some kind of Acute Senses or Nightvision rule for some of our stuff. For a race that apparently has not only the keenest senses, but the highest tech level, we have NO way of getting around Nightfight restrictions, which I think is a little odd.

I'd also like to see the Starcannon made viable again....It was painful in 4th ed with the 3rd Ed book I agree, but losing a shot AND going up in price has just made it useless, particularly with the mass cover increase compared to the MUCH cheaper Scatter Laser. Maybe a multi-mode firing system a-la Disintigrators? Possibly give Spiders the option to do that as well actually, either a Template, Blast or Straight shot (strength varying accordingly).

ReveredChaplainDrake
14-10-2009, 05:10
I haven't played Eldar since 3rd edition. (It was a model painting issue that hung me up on them.) When I saw the 4th codex, I was actually rather disappointed to the point where I abandoned my Eldar, sold what I could, and the rest is languishing in shoe boxes as I type this.

-3-Shot Starcannons. When the Assault Cannon went Heavy 4 Rending, I thought that would be the end of this sillyness about Starcannons being so broken (they always costed a fortune in points), as they both did similar stuff, depending on the race that wielded it. The Assault Cannon was the all-around gun to beat, just like the Marines, but the Starcannon was very good at killing a specific target (that being MEQs in this case) just like the Eldar. When the Starcannon got nerfed to 2 shots, that hurt, and when blast templates changed and turned the Plasma Cannon into a marine-killing nightmare gun, that just added insult to injury. 3 shot Starcannons ought to come back.

-Black Guardians. There are a lot of Guardian fixes, but my favorite is the Ulthwe fix: give Defenders BS4 and Storms WS4. Then, if this is too much, balance it out with the Ulthwe Strike Force rule, which I dubbed "And They Shall Know Fear", because it made you unable to rally, even if above 1/2 strength, exactly the opposite of the Space Marines' iconic ATSKNF. But, in a modern translation, if you run off the board, you won't give up a Kill Point because the Guardians have successfully preserved some of their numbers. Every Eldar counts.

-Crystal Targeting Matrix. No, not that pop-up thing, but it always bugged me that, for a targeting matrix, being equipped with one didn't make you any better at targeting. CTM = BS4 for tanks, and an auto-choice on Fire Prisms. Hey, Eldar and Tau swipe stuff from each other like Space Marines and Chaos Marines.

-Dark Reapers. Constantly overshadowed as the least mobile Eldar firebase (after support platforms, which I'm getting to), the Dark Reapers need to be less stand-back-and-shoot (which doesn't even work in 40k anymore) and more we-can-do-stuff-that-you-can't. My proposal: Relentless. C'mon, tell me that wouldn't give Fire Prisms a run for their FOC slot. At least make them Slow and Purposeful. Pillbox Reapers are why nobody likes Dark Reapers.

-Support Platforms as Elites. I know it's a bit out of place, but consider that there are Heavy Guardians (piloting Falcons and Fire Prisms), Fast Guardians (piloting Vypers and War Walkers, the latter of which should be a Fast Attack), but no Elite-choice for Guardians. Considering that weapons platform gunners are about as elite as Guardians get (and if you're running a Guardian-heavy army, it gives Aspect Warriors a run for their money) I think they'd fit the FOC slot nicely. Oh, and make them Relentless. While a stretch on Dark Reapers, I don't think Relentless Weapon Teams would at all be too much to ask for in an Eldar army.

-Aspect Warrior models. It bugged me so much that the Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks didn't get new models. This needed to be rectified a couple of editions ago. And the Jetbikes... would it kill them to (1) upgrade the models and (2) actually sell them in reasonably-priced squadrons of 3?

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 05:18
-Dark Reapers. Constantly overshadowed as the least mobile Eldar firebase (after support platforms, which I'm getting to), the Dark Reapers need to be less stand-back-and-shoot (which doesn't even work in 40k anymore) and more we-can-do-stuff-that-you-can't. My proposal: Relentless. C'mon, tell me that wouldn't give Fire Prisms a run for their FOC slot. At least make them Slow and Purposeful. Pillbox Reapers are why nobody likes Dark Reapers.


Honestly, the Reason Dark Reapers aren't that great, isn't because they are terrible as a firebase. It is more because they are a highly specialized firebase against a specific enemy. They work out great against MEQ's not in vehicles but in 5th they are in vehicles all the time and Dark Reapers can't hurt Vehicles.

Then there is the fact they are only 5 man strong and T3. 3+ save doesn't help really at that point. I have used them, I use to use them all the time in my mixed list, but they just slowly became less and less useful. Also, the heavy support section has a lot of good choices making them even less attractive.

To make Reapers useful, they need more guns than their Reaper Launchers. Bright Lances, BS 5, relentless, split fire, something to make them masters of dealing death from Afar.

1000th Post, yay :)

LususNaturae
14-10-2009, 05:25
Eh, I'm bored, I'll go through and name some things:

AUTARCH: Keep his killing power the same, give him more rules that demonstrate his tactical mastery.

FARSEER: Keep him the same, powers the same, upgrades the same, increase points cost by some amount. Add a rule that states "A Farseer's powers can NEVER be negated an enemy piece of wargear"....I mean, we're the most psychically advanced race in the galaxy, but some bearded screaming drunken fat boy with a stick can stop us 2/3's of the time? gtfo. Oh and 'wargear' is mentioned b/c I do believe Witch Hunters should have their 5+ save rule against powers. But Seers should brush aside any enemy psycher's efforts to get in their way.

WARLOCKS: Cheaper base cost, current is to much.

SCORPIONS: At least give us an option for Stealth...

JETBIKES: Release that prototype (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104363) gdi!

SPEARS: Cheaper, grenades plz.

SPIDERS: These guys are good, but I'd like to say that we eldar could use a unit of flamers (we're an army of specialists after all), and I think these would be a great candidate. The fluff behind the weapon always seemed like more of a template style-weapon (never envisioned death spinners blowing up lehman russes....)

HAWKS: Someone help these poor things....

VYPERS: Drop base points cost to like 25-30 each, weapon cost on some overcosted things (Looking at you Lances...)

FALCON: Some way to get BS 4 would be nice.

STARCANNON: Love this gun, needs a boost. Make it either Heavy 2, but lower the cost A LOT. Or, same cost, Heavy 3.

Um. That's my quick list, was bored decided to join the fun.

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 05:42
My standard rules for the Avatar are:

WS10 BS10 S7 T7 W4 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+

4++
Fleet
Monstrous creature
Inspiring

Suin Dellae
Choose to add +1 Attack or +1S in melee with each attack. Can fire like a heavy flamer or a meltagun.

And then a host of different abilities a little like Daemonic Gifts (things like increase meltagun range and S, conflagration that causes hits on enemy units in melee, etc).

EDIT: Costs as much as a bloodthirster

Hellebore

Beautiful. Just beautiful.

So when you say you like Eldar, but you don't like Eldar, what you mean is you Love Eldar? :P

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 05:58
Beautiful. Just beautiful.

So when you say you like Eldar, but you don't like Eldar, what you mean is you Love Eldar? :P

It's more that I like the eldar but hate the way GW chooses to portray them.

They create all sorts of great background and then pretend it doesn't exist when actually making an army of them.

The eldar are one of the biggest contradictions in 40k. Super advanced dying race ≠ horde of poorly armed and armoured civilians. And yet somehow we are made to believe it actually does. High quality products + low population = higher average standard of armament not lower.

Hellebore

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 06:04
It's more that I like the eldar but hate the way GW chooses to portray them.

They create all sorts of great background and then pretend it doesn't exist when actually making an army of them.

The eldar are one of the biggest contradictions in 40k. Super advanced dying race ≠ horde of poorly armed and armoured civilians. And yet somehow we are made to believe it actually does. High quality products + low population = higher average standard of armament not lower.

Hellebore

I know exactly how you feel. Sometimes I look at my lovingly modeled and painted black guardians and weep silently because I know they'll just be slaughtered and they're basically meat shields for a overpriced gunsled.

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 06:17
To invoke the right kind of atmosphere eldar players should be feeling bad about their casualties, not piling on the guardians as a means to protect a heavy weapon. That's guard tactics.

Small things like eldar armour having anti grav thrusters that allow them to escape assault faster (say re-roll the sweeping advance test) thus preventing them being slaughtered would go a ways towards invoking the right kind of feel. Even to the extremes of making each eldar unit count as TWO kill points in order to prevent the player consciously slaughtering his own troops through meatgrinder tactics.

hellebore

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 06:22
Even just making Eldar more expensive (but more capable) so that individual models are a larger part of the battle scheme. The way I see it, a single Eldar, be he a guardian or warrior is part of a grand battle plan, necessary and as essential as a Falcon or an Avatar. He should be powerful when used in concert with his fellows, and hard to bring down, but when lost should be painful to the army as a whole.

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 06:27
Unfortunately GW wants to sell lots of models so making guardians any more expensive than they already are is probably out of the question. :(

If GW would make BS an opposed test then we might be able to have BS5 or 6 base troops without people freaking out about it. But alas we are stuck with BS1-5 in a 1-10 based system.

Hellebore

Juggalo
14-10-2009, 06:29
New Eldar codex? Get in line... in the back of the line!

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 06:29
Unfortunately GW wants to sell lots of models so making guardians any more expensive than they already are is probably out of the question. :(

If GW would make BS an opposed test then we might be able to have BS5 or 6 base troops without people freaking out about it. But alas we are stuck with BS1-5 in a 1-10 based system.

Hellebore

What would you resolve BS again? Initiative? That might be interesting. I take it you have a specific idea for this?

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 06:32
What would you resolve BS again? Initiative? That might be interesting. I take it you have a specific idea for this?

In my D10 based system BS is resolved against Initiative and order of combat is determined by rolling against the opponent's Initiative to see who strikes first. Initiative is given a very different description and it's got nothing to do with dodging bullets.

But yes, just as WS is opposed, BS should be opposed too. The eldar might come into their own more if it's vs I as at the moment they are supposedly sacrificing armour for speed, but speed has no representation in the game and so all they do is suck.

hellebore

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 06:40
In my D10 based system BS is resolved against Initiative and order of combat is determined by rolling against the opponent's Initiative to see who strikes first. Initiative is given a very different description and it's got nothing to do with dodging bullets.

But yes, just as WS is opposed, BS should be opposed too. The eldar might come into their own more if it's vs I as at the moment they are supposedly sacrificing armour for speed, but speed has no representation in the game and so all they do is suck.

hellebore

Hmm. D10s are good times. A lot more freedom.
Initiative would be then, timing, agility and basically making yourself a hard target as your run from cover to cover?

I had a thought. What if BS was opposed by situational modifiers rather than a statline? Such as range, weather, intervening terrain, movement speed? They could add up to a number (10 being the highest likely) and BS could be against that.

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 06:46
Hmm. D10s are good times. A lot more freedom.
Initiative would be then, timing, agility and basically making yourself a hard target as your run from cover to cover?

I had a thought. What if BS was opposed by situational modifiers rather than a statline? Such as range, weather, intervening terrain, movement speed? They could add up to a number (10 being the highest likely) and BS could be against that.

That's part of it too. Just depends on how much detail you want in the game. 40k imo doesn't have enough.

The Sternguard are my favourite example. The stats are so constrained that they couldn't represent veteran tactical marines any other way except soopa speshul guns they've never had before. But all that does is make the GUN look special, not they guy carrying it. a ratling with those guns would be as dangerous.

hellebore

Arakanis
14-10-2009, 06:53
That's part of it too. Just depends on how much detail you want in the game. 40k imo doesn't have enough.

The Sternguard are my favourite example. The stats are so constrained that they couldn't represent veteran tactical marines any other way except soopa speshul guns they've never had before. But all that does is make the GUN look special, not they guy carrying it. a ratling with those guns would be as dangerous.

hellebore

You're sadly right. I'm playing Mage: The Awakening right now with some friends, and there are times I almost freeze up from the sheer amount of freedom I have in that game.

Juggalo
14-10-2009, 06:53
D10s would be terrible with the amount of dice you roll, and at the end of the day, wouldn't really make a huge difference.

Now a 2d6 system allows for a better bell-curve of results, but that's impossible with the current 40k system of buckets'o'dice.

Gwyidion
14-10-2009, 07:17
The big problems with reapers are: S5 ap3 in a world of 4+ cover, 3-5 unit size, when the unit is T3 and 3+, and they compete with wraithlords, falcons, fire prisms and war walkers.

I would love to see brightlances - change the role of the unit entirely.



And an idea for the entire list - In addition to the benefits of fleet described in the codex, all infantry, jump infantry, and monstrous creatures which have the 'fleet' special rule may move up to 6" in the assault phase instead of assaulting, taking difficult and dangerous terrain tests as normal.

Wraithsight - as before, and, this unit is not affected by night-fighting rules. (justification being, wraith units see the world differently, and while that can be a bad thing at times, night and day makes no difference to them)

Avatar (i like those changes proposed earlier) - inspiring aura also negates wraithsight checks within its radius.

Rangers on a to-hit roll of 6, cover saves cannot be taken against this wound. Pathfinders, 5+
Rangers rend on a 6, pathfinders 5+.
rangers and pathfinders wound on a 4+.

rangers/pathfinders both retain +1 stealth.
pathfinders 'masters of stealth' causes them to require spotting rolls to target them of 2d6x2.


Here's an idea for phoenix lords - they make their aspects troops, and unlock a non-FOC hq-style unit of exarchs of their aspect. This unit does not score, but is 1-5 exarchs of the specific aspect, with normal power and wargear options. --- this could be really good, but also not that amazing, as the exarchs don't have invuln saves. I could see Jain Zar and 5 banshee exarchs really ripping it up in CC, but they would suffer from being T3 3+ with no invuln (the exarchs would, JZ would be T4 2+/4++).

All in all, i think it would be tough to make a codex that wouldn't get really cheesy if GW included all the PLs and then all the HQs needed to make CW-themed armies. That is a ton of HQ units, especially with vanilla farseer, autarch, and the avatar (and a warlock HQ, if they go that way).

I'd rather have CW-theme HQ units than all the PLs, to be honest.

Badger[Fr]
14-10-2009, 08:26
My standard rules for the Avatar are:

WS10 BS10 S7 T7 W4 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+

4++
Fleet
Monstrous creature
Inspiring

Suin Dellae
Choose to add +1 Attack or +1S in melee with each attack. Can fire like a heavy flamer or a meltagun.

And then a host of different abilities a little like Daemonic Gifts (things like increase meltagun range and S, conflagration that causes hits on enemy units in melee, etc).

EDIT: Costs as much as a bloodthirster

Hellebore
One question remains: why should the Avatar be more powerful than any other Greater Daemon in the game? He's tougher than a Great Unclean (2+ save and T7), and stronger than a Blood Thirster (S8 by default). His current profile is in line with the other Codices. Whether Greater Daemons should be more powerful or not is a whole another issue, but at the moment, the only thing the Avatar sorely needs is Eternal Warrior. You'd expect the Eldar God of War to get such a rule...

Melchiah
14-10-2009, 08:29
The avatar isnt the god of war, its the "avatar" of the god of blood,murder, and war.

Squallish
14-10-2009, 08:30
Because of his T and super-high WS, I don't think he needs Eternal Warrior. The main things that can instant kill him is: Wraithguard on a 6 to wound, Force Weapons that hit on 4+, wound on 6+ and he fails on 3- i.e. doesn't happen often.. the exception being Nemesis Force Weapons, which are supposed to take him out as hes a Daemon.

Badger[Fr]
14-10-2009, 08:35
Because of his T and super-high WS, I don't think he needs Eternal Warrior. The main things that can instant kill him is: Wraithguard on a 6 to wound, Force Weapons that hit on 4+, wound on 6+ and he fails on 3- i.e. doesn't happen often..
Though, it would be coherent with the generic Daemon rules (Fearless, Invulnerable Save, and Eternal Warrior).


the exception being Nemesis Force Weapons, which are supposed to take him out as hes a Daemon.
Well, Nemesis Force Weapons ignore EW anyway.

Squallish
14-10-2009, 08:37
Never really read that codex ;)

Poseidal
14-10-2009, 09:22
The Avatar was the original Eternal Warrior. In his wd127 rules he reduced the amount of wounds he took from multiwound weapons so even a lascannon wouldn't be able to one shot him.

Doomseer
14-10-2009, 10:00
I really do hope that the next codex is handled in a way that returns the Eldar's spirit, no pun intended. There isn't a lot wrong with the current book beyond it not representing the true feel of the Eldar IMO.

Some army wide rules/restrictions should be imposed to represent them being a dying race and the importance of waystones. The Bonesinger could be a really good mechanism for representing this and many other ideas that have been knocking around for some time.

Jes Goodwin's sketches of an Assassin/Sniper in The Gothic and The Eldritch has never surfaced as an option, it could be something really interesting.

As for wishlisting I'd like to see:

Plastic Wraithguard with CC options, which GW has hinted at itself.

An Iyanna Arienal SC with the option of the Exarch Wraithlord.

Warp Spiders go back to having Template weapons.

Better costed Heavy Weapons across the whole codex.

plastic support weapons.

A review of all the Aspects and the effects of their powers to really benefit them in their roles, particularly after successfully completing their intended task, as at the moment they really get shafted for being efficient!

There are so many directions they can be taken, I just hope that their spirit is recaptured.

Thud
14-10-2009, 11:16
(snip)
There are so many directions they can be taken, I just hope that their spirit is recaptured.

In that alley, I hope they get the "direction options" that Space Wolves, Orks and, to an extent, Space Marines got (Wolfwing, Biker armies, Jump Pack armies etc).

IJW
14-10-2009, 11:34
I've not got around to reading the rest of the thread yet, but...

Jetbikes: The only 1st edition model left in the range.
Erm, what? The 2nd ed. Eldar codex still used the original metal RT Jetbikes. The plastic replacements came out a long way into 2nd ed.

If you want 1st ed. Eldar models you need to look at the older Warlocks, which still look fine.

Poseidal
14-10-2009, 11:42
I did a summary near the start of the thread on the old (2nd or earlier) models left, I might have missed some off.

Warlocks - mostly 1st (!) edition models, with one 3rd edition Warlock.
Warp Spiders - 2nd edition
Jetbikes - 2nd edition
Wraithguard - 2nd edition
Vyper - late 2nd edition
Falcon - late 2nd edition
Prism - late 2nd edition

Personally, I think a lot of the 1st ed models still look good today. Bug Eye Farseer, most of the Aspect Warrior scuplts and the Exarchs look great, and the Dire Avenger Exarch from that era is my favourite model.

IJW
14-10-2009, 11:46
I did a summary near the start of the thread on the old (2nd or earlier) models left
That'll teach me to post without reading the rest of the thread... ;)

P.S. I just noticed that the RT Scouts/Rangers are available again as Collector's models.

jams86
14-10-2009, 14:12
i wouldn't like to see the autarch nerfed to a squad upgrade, i like running non-psyker hq and atm only the autarch and avatar make sense as the pheonix lords are points prohibitive a lot of the time

Sildani
14-10-2009, 15:22
There's not much wrong with current Codex. It was written by an Eldar lover, for Eldar lovers. That said, the transition to 5th hurt, because although the Codex was writ with 5th in mind, stuff was introduced after the Codex was put to bed. And yes, it seems that the newer Codices have cheaper, shiner toys than the Eldar do. I like shiny toys, but they must be balanced - in fact, I like several of the ideas I've seen here, which I'll nick! With all that in mind, I'd like to present...

WHAT SILDANI WOULD DO WITH THE ELDAR CODEX

HQ:
Autarch: Loses the Strategy Rating thing, gains Tactical Mastery: The Autarch counts as a scoring unit. This ability is conferred to the squad the Autarch joins. Everything else remains the same.

Farseer (125 pts): Gains Runes of Warding and Runes of Witnessing as standard equipment. May choose up to two psychic powers for free. Gains Psychic Potence: If a Farseer's successfully cast psychic power is stopped, negated etc. for any reason, the Eldar player may roll 1d6. On a 4+, the power is used normally. This may be done every time the power is stopped, negated, etc. Everything else, including the powers themselves, remains the same.

Warlocks: Remain the same.

Avatar: remains the same. I personally don't want to pay 200+ points for him. The current Avatar is one of the best deals going!

Phoenix Lords: Gain a blanket 5+ invulnerable save, except for Asurmen. Founders of the Shrines: A squad of their Aspect counts as Scoring as long as the Phoenix Lord is attached and the squad is at half strength or better. Tweaks to the various Lords are as follows:

-Asurmen: His Dire Catapults fire at AP 3. The Sword of Asur's bound spirit, Tethesis, is angry and actively wishes to harm the enemies of his brother Asurmen. The Sword will never need worse then a 4+ to wound, regardless of relative Str and T. All else remains the same.

Jain Zar: confers Furious Charge to the squad of Banshees she's attached to. All else remains the same.

Fuegan: Confers Feel No Pain to the squad of Dragons he's attached to. (that should help stop Dragons from getting killed by the vehicle they just killed!)

Karandras: No other changes.

Baharroth: Paragon of Flight: When Baharroth Deep Strikes, do not roll for scatter. This ability is conferred to the squad of Hawks he's joined.

Maugan Ra: Gains Targeting Vanes wargear, described below. All else remains the same.

Yriel: gains Tactical Mastery. All else remains the same.

Eldrad Ulthran (275 pts): Gains Psychic Puissance: Successfully cast psychic powers used by Eldrad may never be stopped, negated, etc. in addition, whenever an opponent's psychic power targets Eldrad and/or the unit he's attached to, the Eldar player may roll a 1d6. On a 4+, Eldrad may use that same power, immediately and without restriction on the number of shooting attacks he previously made, although all other restrictions must be obeyed. The original power is negated. (There! Master of psychics again!)

Iyanna Arienal (350 pts): Warlock statline, except it takes into account her Enhance Warlock power, and she has +1 Attack, +1 Wound, and +1 Leadership. Equipped with the Spear of Teuthlas (singing spear with 18" range) and the Armour of Vaul (invulnerable save if she makes a successful Leadership check). Warlock powers: Enhance, Destructor. Her Spiritseer "bubble" has an 18" range. Accompanied by Corellon, her former lover and the "mighty Wraith-construct" mentioned in the Codex. He has a Wraithlord statline, modified by her Enhance power, and two Wraithswords (+1 Attack, for free), two flamers or shuriken catapults, and up to two heavy weapons (which do not count as twin-linked if they are the same, and cost Wraithlord rates). Iyanna and Corellon have Fleet of Foot. They may join a unit of Wraithguard, although they then lose Fleet. (Phew! Impressive enough?)

Well, that's the HQs messed up. I'll post my ideas for the rest of Eldar list a bit later. Oh, the Reaper Targeting Vanes: +15 points per model, though Maugan Ra gets his for free. The Vanes allow the Reaper to actually see the missile's flight through his helmet sensors. Weapons fired by a model so equipped do not need LOS.

TROOPS:

Guardians: May take either one heavy Weapon platform or one support weapon platform for every ten members of the squad. If the squad takes one or more support weapons, the squad gains Slow and Purposeful. Gains Tactical Withdrawal: The Eldar know full well that a tactical retreat to preserve valuable Eldar lives is sometimes the only option, and make fighting withdrawals rather than dying where they stand. Guardians that fall back due to casualties inflicted will not rally and must continue to fall back even if above half strength. Any squad removed from play in this way that is above half strength does not award a kill point to the opponent.

Storm Guardians: become WS 4, gain Tactical Withdrawal. All else remains the same.

Dire Avengers: all gain shuriken pistol and CCW for free. This makes them a bit more useful in CC. All else remains the same.

Rangers/Pathfinders: Pathfinders may be given BS 5 for +5 points per model. All else remains the same.

Guardian Jetbikes: remains the same.

ELITES:

Howling Banshees: Banshee Mask allows equipped models to stike at I 10 in the first round of any assault, regardless of cover, grenades, or any other modifiers. All else remains the same.

Striking Scorpions: Remain the same.

Wraithguard: May exchange their wraithcannon for two CCWs for free. All else remains the same.

Fire Dragons: Exarch gains Burning Fist for +20 pts. The Exarch summons all his wrath and hatred and unleashes it in a devastating attack. In CC the Exarch may re-roll failed wounds and ignores armor saves. (Gives the Dragons just a bit of CC ability - perhaps enough to make the opponent think twice about assaulting.) All else remains the same.

Harlequins: gain the Solitaire (175 pts). This uses the normal Harlie statline and abilities, with the following additions: WS 7, BS 7, +1 Wound, I 7. Equipped with The Solitaire's Kiss, which is a matched pair of Harlequin's Kisses that confer +2 Attacks and have Rending on a 5+ to-Wound roll. Quicksilver: may Assault 12"; if the Solitaire only moves 6" or less to assault, gains +1 Attack in addition to the normal +1 Attack for charging. Also gains a 3+ invulnerable save. Touch of Misfortune: may not be moved in the Movement Phase within 6" of another Eldar unit, except for Wraithguard, Wraithlords, any HQ choice, Harlequins, and models with an Armor Value. If they start a Movement Phase within 6", they must be moved 6" or further away. (represents the dread they inspire in other Eldar). Independent Character. Dance of Death, flip belt, Fleet of Foot.
Death Jesters: If a Troupe Master is taken, than 0-3 Death Jesters may be taken and used as their own unit. They do not take up an Elite slot in the FOC.

Wave Serpent: No change. It's already the best transport in the game!

FAST ATTACK:
Warp Spiders: Exarch's Surprise Assault: the unit may assault after Deep Striking. Surprise! All else remains the same.

Swooping Hawks (+1 pt. each): Exarch gains Master of Flight (15 pts): when the Exarch's unit Deep Strikes, roll 1d6 for Scatter. This may be re-rolled, but the second result stands, even if it's worse! Lasblasters are Str 4. Haywire grenades ignore modifers on the Vehicle Damage Table, but suffer from their own modifier of -1, even if they penetrate! All else remains the same. (That should make them damaging against tanks and a bit more deadly against MEQs.)

Vypers: -10 points per model. A squadron may take a Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (described below). May take a Crystal Targeting Matirx. All else remains the same.

Shining Spears: Laser lances and star lances always count as power weapons in CC. All else remains the same.

War Walkers: yep, they're here. All else remains the same.

HEAVY SUPPROT:

Wraithlord: May buy a second Wraithsword for +15 points. This confers +1 Attack. All else remains the same. Note that having two Wraithswords precludes you from having

Dark Reapers: Gain Reaper Targeting Vanes for +15 points per model. Due to their grim nature, they gain Stubborn.

Falcon: May have a Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (described below). May take a Crystasl Targeting Matrix. May buy a second pulse laser for +35 points instead of a heavy weapon. May replace its pulse laser and secondary heavy weapon option with two d-cannon for +80 points, two vibro cannon for +70 points (which may contribute to support platform vibrocannon), or two shadow weavers for +40 points. All else remains the same.

Fire Prism: May take a Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (described below). Equipped with a Crystal Targeting Matrix. All else remains the same.

0-1 Firestorm (160 points): May take a Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (described below). As Falcon, but replace pulse laser and secondary heavy weapon option with Firestorm scatter lasers. Range 54", Str 6 AP 6, Heavy 7. Ignores cover saves.

Vehicle upgrades:
0-2 Star Eagle Aspect Pilot (+60 pts): These Aspect Warriors take their inspiration from Alean, the steed of Khaine. Theirs is the mantra of speed and surety of eye. Centuries spent in the sleek tanks of the Eldar allow them to know every nuance of their vehicles, and they can correlate data from their vehicle's targeters with lethal efficiency. A Star Eagle pilot confers +1 BS to their vehicle. They have also learned to coax every last pound of thrust form their vehicle's turbines and and manipulate its anti-grav field to the point that they can practically pirouette a Falcon! Charge of Alean: A vehicle piloted by a Star Eagle may be placed in Reserve. It comes out of Reserves when the controlling player wishes - no roll required. It then Deep Strikes onto the table - roll scatter as normal, but if it scatters off of the table, into terrain, or onto an enemy model it does not trigger a roll on the Deep Strike Mishap Table, nor is it destroyed. Instead, move it the minimum distance necessary to put it on the table. The vehicle counts as having moved more than 12" in its last Movement Phase, but may shoot as though it had been stationary. One Star Eagle may assigned per Vyper squadron, and all Vypers in that squadron benefit from the Charge of Alean, although only the Star Eagle's Vyper gains +1 BS.

Crystal Targeting Matrix: Counts weapons of Str 6 and lower as Defensive Weapons.

Heavy Weapons:
Bright Lance: AP 1. All else remains the same.
All other heavy weapons remain the same.

Well, what do you think? How badly is this broken (I'm mostly worried about the Solitaire).

Finally, on the subject of the starcannon being more expensive:
Delivery System: Third Ed. Codex: Fourth Ed. Codex:
Weapon Platform 90 pts. total 105 pts. total
Vyper 65 pts. total 70 pts. total
War Walker (two cannon) 100 pts. total 80 pts. total
Wraithlord (one cannon) 120 pts. total 120 pts. total
Falcon 155 pts. total 140 pts. total
Wave Serpent 125 pts. total 125 pts. total

In the case of the Wraithlord, the base cost went up, while the starcannon's cost was reduced. With the Guardians, the starcannon's price was reduced, but the minimum squad size increased to 10. For Vypers, base cost was reduced and the starcannon's cost increased. War Walkers, base cost remained the same, starcannon's cost reduced. Falcon, base cost and starcannon cost reduced. Wave Serpent, base cost reduced (though you no longer got the shuriken cannon for free) and starcannon increased. Starcannon still aren't that expensive. It's just that missile launchers, scatter lasers, and shuriken cannon got much cheaper, whereas starcannon got... a little cheaper.

incarna
14-10-2009, 15:37
;4035556']If the Wraithlord has to drop its ranged weapons (something you didn't mentioned in your first post), fair point then. Though, Assault terminators die to Lasguns and Bolters; Wraithlords do not. This is a *detail* you failed to take into account.
Because these are just ideas – wishlisting. I’ll try to keep in mind that, if I’m to throw an idea out there that I need to have finished, playable rules that can go straight from warseer into the new codex – my mistake, I’ll be sure to playtest my ideas for hours at a time before suggesting them. I didn’t fail to take into account that wraithlords are immune to bolters either. I’m aware of what an invulnerable save would provide to a wraithlord. In the context of a game where biker nobs walk through armies and template IG armies vaporize everything they touch - not to mention rumors of Carnefex broods coming out in the new nid codex - it’s not out of the realm of playability at all. You’re so quick to rudely snap at an idea you don’t like you didn’t bother to consider where the unit might fall in comparison to what else is out there.


;4035556']Granted, these two psychic abilities are grossly overpowered. So? Your argument amounts to: "There are two overpowered psychic abilities in the whole game, so my Farseer should be ridiculously overpowered as well". You are mentioning two exceptions as if it they were the rule. Neither Space Marines nor Orks nor Daemons nor Guards nor the rest of the older Codices have these kind of game-breaking abilities, and it's actually a good thing.


You don't even know what you're talking about. Sanctionned Psykers can, at best, throw a S9 template. Your oh-so-awesome IG Psykers are barely better than a glorified Lascannon.


I'd happily field that kind of unit upgrade, thanks. The ability to enhance a whole army is far more reliable and interesting to play than a one-trick pony such as JoTTW that doesn't even work against mechanized builds.


Well, I'd like to see the other amies awesome buffing psychic powers (except the obvious Lash), because I never heard of them before. Nightshroud? Rubbish. Null zone? Situational.

Nope, you misunderstood my argument – allow me to clarify before you take my position out of context… oh wait! Too late!

Farseers are supposed to be the most powerful psychers in the universe. Currently they’re incredibly expensive first-rate unit upgrades and third-rate as overall psychers.

For the same cost as a Farseer with powers, imperial guard armies can field Primaris Psychers which comes stock with Lightning Arc and Nightshroud – two powers which aren’t game breaking but Arc, considering average rolling over the course of the models life, is certainly more powerful than Eldrich Storm. Nightshroud isn’t anything spectacular but when synergized with Weaken Resolve, you have a power which is at least as good as Fortune… and the Primaris Psycher can use BOTH powers in a turn without purchasing spirit stones.

For slightly more than a farseer with powers you have psycher battle squads which are certainly NOT glorified lascannons as you describe – they’re up to strength 9 template weapons with a 36” range – with an AP that 1/3 of the time will be enough to wipe a space marine, chaos space marine, or necron squad off the table – and be enough to wipe orks and tyranid squads off the table the other 2/3 of the time… not to mention weaken resolve which, when combined with enough firepower from another squad to inflict ¼ casualties, is basically a squad killer provided the squad isn’t fearless – not to mention it’s a 10-wound entity which can’t be instant killed by str 6.

Librarians – If you think Gate of Infinity isn’t an amazing power than you’re smoking something. 24” mobility/applied firepower gives a player the ability to not only be in a position to contest nearly any objective he wants, but potentially enough firepower to push an opposing troop squad off that objective – game winning. The Avenger and Smite are shooting attacks that are at least as good as Eldrich Storm – but one might argue the added wounds Smite provides during a round of shooting is equivalent to to the added damage from Doom. Machine Curse is nice power because, in a world where Imperial Guard tanks with 5 plasma cannon shots can take an auto-glance it’s at LEAST as good a Fortune.

You already know my position on Chaos and Space Wolves.

I know the Farseer’s roll isn’t offensive and I’m not asking it to be. I agree with you that a Farseer’s support roll is where it SHOULD be but either at too high a point cost or too low an impact in comparison to the current incarnation of the game. Currently the Farseer is literally a unit upgrade – a costly one – one that can even be taken away with wound allocation/directed attacks. As I said before, the Farseer is good, but nowhere near the top tier of psychers in the game. I don’t expect to convince you, in fact, I only expect another snippy stubborn retort – but most good Eldar players feel that Farseers, particularly Eldard, are excellent linchpins to an army composition but have, as codex creep has taken its toll, diminished significantly in value for points in caparison to the other psychers in the game. This is particularly frustrating since Eldar psychers are sold as the most powerful psychers in the galaxy and even the lowly Eldar guardian has psychic potential.

incarna
14-10-2009, 15:45
Move Mind War to the Warlock, buff Eldrich Storm. Doom, Guide, and Fortune are plenty powerful.


I think that Mind War would have to be reworked before going to Warlocks. I can’t see up to 10 psychic attacks being directed at any individual model within range as being balanced. I think the whole mind war system could stand to be reworked anyway.

Eldrich storm needs a serious overhaul.

I believe the range of Guide and Fortune need to be increased to 24” or even 36”. The powers are good but pigeon-hole the Farseer into more of a unit upgrade as opposed to a support unit.

Karhedron
14-10-2009, 16:33
I’ll be sure to playtest my ideas for hours at a time before suggesting them.

Great! Any chance you could persuade GW to do the same while you are at it? ;)

Glad to see this topic has got everyone's creative juices going. While there are a load of interesting ideas being thrown about, it is interesting to note that certain ideas keep cropping up. Currently the recurring themes seem to be

Make Farseers better (various ideas)
Make PLs worth taking (I saves and making their Aspects Troops or Scoring seems a popular combination)
Shining Spears and Swooping Hawks both seem to need some love
People aren't happy with T3 5+ Guardians having a 12" range gun (I am one of the few people who regularly fields Guardian Defenders although never more than 1 squad).
Either rebalancing the points cost of the Falcon or giving it BS4.
CC Wraithguard.
Wraithcannons at 18" range.

I will keep taking the pulse of this thread to try and gauge other recurring trends. Please note that just because I have not included a particular idea in the above list does not mean it is not good. It is worth bearing in mind that some people seem to get good mileage out of units that others struggle with (I love my Warp Spiders for instance but never bother with Seer councils).

Badger[Fr]
14-10-2009, 16:35
Founders of the Shrines: A squad of their Aspect counts as Scoring as long as the Phoenix Lord is attached and the squad is at half strength or better.
Looks like a pointless restriction, to be honest. Considering how frail most Eldar units are, a single scoring squad is hardly overpowered. Plus, Phenix Lords are still far from being on par with other armies SC, even with your improvement.


: If a Farseer's successfully cast psychic power is stopped, negated etc. for any reason, the Eldar player may roll 1d6. On a 4+, the power is used normally. This may be done every time the power is stopped, negated, etc.
I fail to see why Eldar players are suddenly worried by psychic defences, as these have actually got worse with 5th Edition. In that regard, 4th Edition was plain horrible, considering the sheer number of a Ld10 Psychic Hoods with infinite range running around. Remember when each and every Space Marine army was led by a Librarian?

Plus, in terms of Psychic Defence, the current Eldar Codex is still unrivaled. Runes of Warding currently are the most potent psychic defense in the whole game: a Ld9 Psyker has a 62% chance of failing his test, a Ld10 Psyker, 50%. Plus, there is a 38% chance that the enemy Psyker will suffer a Peril of the Warp. And contrary to Psychic Hoods, Runes of Warding have unlimited range. Eldar Farseers are still the masters of the psychic phase, if there is such a thing.

The best way to counter psychic defences is to make the Eldar army less dependant on psychic powers. Better non-Psyker HQ choices would go a long way towards fixing this issue.



Eldrad Ulthran (275 pts): Gains Psychic Puissance: Successfully cast psychic powers used by Eldrad may never be stopped, negated, etc. in addition, whenever an opponent's psychic power targets Eldrad and/or the unit he's attached to, the Eldar player may roll a 1d6. On a 4+, Eldrad may use that same power, immediately and without restriction on the number of shooting attacks he previously made, although all other restrictions must be obeyed. The original power is negated. (There! Master of psychics again!)
Think about it twice: do Eldrad really deserve a boost? Plus, if Eldrad isn't the best psyker in the game, who is?


. Nightshroud isn’t anything spectacular but when synergized with Weaken Resolve, you have a power which is at least as good as Fortune… and the Primaris Psycher can use BOTH powers in a turn without purchasing spirit stones.
I don't want to sound agressive on this one, but it is pretty obvious you have never, ever read the IG Codex or played against IG Psykers once. Primaris Psykers can only cast a single psychic power per turn (like any unupgraded Psyker). The Nightshroud / Weaken Resolve pretended synergy is laughable: the weakened unit can still charge you, or shoot another unit with no penalties whatsoever. Suggesting that such a costly (at least 130 points) and inefficient (was it good, IG players would already be using it - but they don't!) combo could outperform Fortune reeks of Theoryhammer at its worse. Please, read the other armies rules and tactics before making such comments.


third-rate as overall psychers.
A third rate Psyker which provides unrivaled synergies, has the best Psychic Defence in the whole game, Ld 10, almost ignores Peril of the Warps, and can cast two powers a turn thanks to a dirt-cheap upgrade? Give me a break. I'm all in favour of extending the Farseer powers range (as it provides more tactical opportunities for the Eldar player) and improve the weakest powers (Eldritch Storm and Mind War), but there is no denying that, even with the current improvement of IG Psykers and Rune Priests (Librarians were nerfed IMHO; they're no longer the combat beasts they used to be, and the horribly broken Fear of Darkness and Furor of the Ancients are gone), the Eldar Farseer remains a very efficient HQ choice.


Njal Stormcaller, Lord of Tempests.
He can only cast two different psychic powers a turn (whereas Arhiman, Tiguris and Eldrad can cast three), and his Runic staff still has a 24" range. His Lord of Tempests ability is awesome, though.

Thud
14-10-2009, 16:54
;4037812']Think about it twice: do Eldrad really deserve a boost?

The boost (in points and abilities) Sildani suggested; yes. And I have thought about it. Twice. ;)


Plus, if Eldrad isn't the best psyker in the game, who is?

Njal Stormcaller, Lord of Tempests.



This is getting ridiculous. It is pretty obvious you have never, ever read the IG Codex or played against IG Psykers once. Primaris Psykers can only cast a single psychic power per turn (like any unupgraded Psyker). The Nightshroud / Weaken Resolve pretended synergy is laughable: the weakened unit can still charge you, or shoot another unit with no penalties whatsoever. Suggesting that such a costly (at least 130 points) and inefficient (was it good, IG players would already be using it) combo could outperform Fortune reeks of Theoryhammer at its worse. How am I supposed to take such an inaccurate and grossly exagerated statement seriously?

This is a wishlisting thread consisting of brainstorming and throwing out ideas, there's no need to turn it into a flamefest. I, for one, enjoy the stimulation this thread provides, so please don't get it locked because you're unable to voice your disagreement like an adult.

Ghal Maraz
14-10-2009, 17:21
One thing that's needed: Aspect warriors squads can regroup even when under 50%.

Shuricats reworking is a given, just to make Guardians and vehicles use them, sometimes.

Swooping Hawks heavily reworked. A return of the bombing run could work. Perhaps a greater movement range?

Spears improved. An always working power weapon, doubling the strenght only when assaulting is quite a good suggestion.

Reapers: the Launcher could be reworked, making it a real mini rocket launcher. Double profile as a missile launcher, but weaker. S3 plasma missiles and S7 krak ones? I think that another Aspect that works against Vehicles is needed and in 1st and 2nd, Reapers wielded real missile launchers.

I would like to see USR or specific rules given to Aspect squads even without Exarchs, with Warrior Powers being fighting ones that identify the battle prowess of the Exarch; something like that:
Scorpions: Infiltrate and Move Through Cover
Banshees: I'm not sure about Furious Charge, but they need a special rule for Fleet (roll 2D6 and choose highest? 3D6?)
Dragons: Tank Hunters or, better, something along the line of saga of the Beastslayer or the Lone Wolf special rule
Avengers: an Eldar variation of ATSKNF?
Hawks: no clue
Spears: Skillful Rider sure as sure; perhaps even Hit and Run
Spiders: no clue
Reapers: Relentless is a good idea
Obviously, rework all the points cost.

Falcons: we already know. At least, a point drop. Something must be done for the overcosted "secondary" weapon. Drop some points or make the turret weapons a "linked" system, always firing together (and perhaps, being hitten together from enemy fire).

Assault ramp, I really don't know. But I would like to see some of the Eldar mech in the vehicles disembarks (Serpents and Falcons have internal, all-around monitors showing the occupants what's happening outside).

Rebalance the list, overall. There are some really top, underpriced units and some useless ones.

incarna
14-10-2009, 17:31
;4037812']
I don't want to sound agressive on this one, but it is pretty obvious you have never, ever read the IG Codex or played against IG Psykers once. Primaris Psykers can only cast a single psychic power per turn (like any unupgraded Psyker). The Nightshroud / Weaken Resolve pretended synergy is laughable: the weakened unit can still charge you, or shoot another unit with no penalties whatsoever. Suggesting that such a costly (at least 130 points) and inefficient (was it good, IG players would already be using it - but they don't!) combo could outperform Fortune reeks of Theoryhammer at its worse. Please, read the other armies rules and tactics before making such comments.
Ah! So having missed a rule in the main rulebook pertaining to psychers being able to use only one power per turn somehow equates to me never having read the Imperial guard Codex or played against and Imperial Guard psycher – You’re obviously a detective of unrivaled deductive reasoning!

Unfortunately Sherlock, you’re wrong – I have done BOTH, but being an Eldar player and playing against space marines who commonly have Librarians who can use two psyichic powers per turn, I made a mistake… can the Warseer community and, indeed Jesus himself forgive me? I know *I* would be hard pressed to forgive such an unjustifiable trespass.

I personally wouldn’t use Nightshroud / Weaken Resolve as a primary army linchpin but it would certainly work if you wanted to protect an expensive unit attached to you HQ. the best, and, in my experience, most common use for Weaken Resolve is in inflicting ¼ casualties on a unit and almost forcing them to fail a morale check and then using a Chimera of Valkayre to escort the unit off the table.


;4037812']
A third rate Psyker which provides unrivaled synergies, has the best Psychic Defence in the whole game, Ld 10, almost ignores Peril of the Warps, and can cast two powers a turn thanks to a dirt-cheap upgrade? Give me a break. I'm all in favour of extending the Farseer powers range (as it provides more tactical opportunities for the Eldar player) and improve the weakest powers (Eldritch Storm and Mind War), but there is no denying that, even with the current improvement of IG Psykers and Rune Priests (Librarians were nerfed IMHO; they're no longer the combat beasts they used to be, and the horribly broken Fear of Darkness and Furor of the Ancients are gone), the Eldar Farseer remains a very efficient HQ choice.


The Eldar psycher is an efficient HQ choice within the out of date Eldar codex. It is, in my opinion, the MOST efficient HQ choice within the current Eldar codex. However, within the overall context of current codexes – the external balance/versatility/point efficiency is no longer there.

While Fortune combined with a jetbike council is still a powerful and competitive unit – the bulk of the Eldar army does not benefit, pound for psychic pound. The “fortuneseer” unit upgrade is so inefficient that it’s almost found exclusively on Wraithguard or Councils in order to accomodate its cost/benefit.

megatrons2nd
14-10-2009, 17:57
I like the Farseers and Autarchs the way they are. I think the Eldar need a more potent combat psycher. Something in between the Autarch, Farseer, and Warlock in status. Give them Psychic power choices stronger and more damaging than the Warlocks, but no multiple power uses per turn and only allow for one or two choices each.

Gwyidion
14-10-2009, 18:00
Eldar do not have the best psychic defense, as whats-his-face the SW character priest has a 3+ rune staff. It has a 24" range, which is mostly meaningless as the majority of psychic powers have a maximum range lower than 24".

The changes proposed above to eldrad has cemented his status as appearing in every single eldar army going - never having his powers denied and being able to use other people's powers? thats amazingly good, and probably too good.

The PLs i think should have a 4+ invuln. Its a fairly standard save applied to slightly-otherworldly characters.

the SH PL needs a boost. Everyone else has weapons which make them fearsome in CC or at range, his is... no good. However, its hard to dial in abilties/weapons for him when we don't know where hawks will be in the new codex.

I think hawks should become another anti-tank aspect. Every other role seems to have at least two aspects dedicated to it (anti horde: scorpions/avengers, anti MEQ: reapers banshees, anti vehicle: dragons, anti nothing: hawks). How about their grenade pack deepstrike ability instead allows them to attack any one vehicle target on the table with a number of haywire grenades equal to the number of hawks in the squad - hitting on a 2+ if the vehicle didn't move, a 4+ if the vehicle did move, and haywire grenades stay the same.

and an idea for their weapons, S8 ap6 R18" Assault 1 Lance
against infantry thats 7 hits (for 10 hawks), 6 wounds, and 2 dead MEQs or 1 dead termie, which isn't impressive. Against AV12 its 2-3 pens and 1-2 glances. On second thought, giving them 18" assault 'bright lances' seems really good.

Sildani
14-10-2009, 18:01
Thanks for the comments, Badger. I put up the rest of my ideas, please have a look!

For the Founders, it's to give a slight minus to the buff.

For the Farseer, it's because I want those powers to work, and an Eldar Farseer, of all psykers, ought to be able to use his millennia of practice to break thorough any interference and assert her will.

Eldrad: the only other psyker that should be able to touch him is the Emperor. Period. Gwydion: so 275 isn't enough? And remember, he needs a 4+ to use others' powers. As for Phoenix Lords getting a 4++, I didn't want to invalidate Asurmen's Battle Fate, and I also don't want to give him a 3++ to compensate. A 2+/3++ is just too good.

Emeraldw
14-10-2009, 18:05
Banshees: I'm not sure about Furious Charge, but they need a special rule for Fleet (roll 2D6 and choose highest? 3D6?)
Dragons: Tank Hunters or, better, something along the line of saga of the Beastslayer or the Lone Wolf special rule
Avengers: an Eldar variation of ATSKNF?


Fleet for banshees isn't really useful. Fast Skimmers makes it so they can get close as they need and if an assault ramp type vehicle is introduced, there would be little need for it.

Furious charge I feel is a necessity anymore for Banshees. Otherwise they rely on needing doom to really do their jobs.

Dragons don't need better tank killing skills. They already all come with mleta. Someone earlier had the idea of giving them more destruction based all around weapons like heavy flamers which I like as it emphasizes destruction, not vehicle killing.

What do you mean by a Lone wolf rule? You mean like if they die you get a kill point? Suicide units don't really fit in an eldar army though I admit that sometimes my dragons feel like that :(

I also dislike the idea of ATSKNF for Avengers. That is space Marines and Avengers are not utterly fearless. Avengers if anything should have the option to be shooter or Close Combat, perhaps both but if they stayed the same with a points decrease I see no issues.

Starchild
14-10-2009, 18:14
Swooping Hawks: These guys are still an Aspect looking for a role. As anti-infantry shooters they are not as good as Dire Avengers in most cases and as tank-killers they struggle to compete with Fire Dragons. I think these guys need a rules tweak to allow them to use their grenade packs in some way in the normal shooting phase. The current rules are disappointing and lead to silly tricks like yo-yo Hawks which I am sure was not what the designers had in mind.
My thoughts exactly. In a previous letter to GW, I suggested that they bring back the old 1st edition bombing runs: the Hawks fly 24" and drop grenades on any unit under the flight path; not necessarily deadly in itself, but might offer some interesting possibilities as a supporting unit (Hawks drop plasma grenades, then any Eldar unit assaulting the Hawks' target that turn count as having assault grenades, etc. etc.)

New models for the Hawks wouldn't hurt either; personally I'd prefer them to be on flying stands and posed appropriately.

Warlocks are downright *wierd*, which is one reason I hesitate to use them. How come they can crack open Rhinos like tin cans, yet struggle to even wound a Terminator or a Meganob? :confused: Just another example of relic rules from 3rd ed., in which some units were different only for the sake of uniqueness... I think a change is in order, but I'm not sure what change that should be...

In regards to the Falcon, one way to make it worth taking would be to give it the Scout special rule. Eldar are supposed to be fastest army in the game. This advantage is being slightly eclipsed by the new SM 'dex and the new IG 'dex... the Imperium might have fast skimmers, but only the Eldar should have skimmer tanks that can outflank.

Kelderaith
14-10-2009, 18:51
Dragons don't need better tank killing skills. They already all come with mleta. Someone earlier had the idea of giving them more destruction based all around weapons like heavy flamers which I like as it emphasizes destruction, not vehicle killing.

Yah that was me, though I mentionned flamer not heavy flamer. I think giving them flamer would be enough, as fire dragon have meltas, not multi melta (also, it wouldn't invalidate their exarch having a heavy flamer option with crack shot).

Also, I forgot the Shining Spears in my analysis (I can't really figure how, they are my favorite aspect!). I think they should keep the same cost (they SHOULD feel elite), but give them either +1A (giving them pistols or whatnot) or giving them power weapons that double str when charging (like other people mentionned). Both ideas seem reasonable to me. Another thing though, what they need even more than this change is having grenade (or more likely, a special rules that count as assault grenade as launching grenade from a super fast jetbike doesn't make that much sense). Terminators can survive not having nades because they have a heavier armor and access to invulnerable saves, Shining spears have neither and are restricted by their number, I really fail to see how they ommited this point, it (imho) completely invalidate the option of taking them.

Badger[Fr]
14-10-2009, 19:09
Ah! So having missed a rule in the main rulebook pertaining to psychers being able to use only one power per turn somehow equates to me never having read the Imperial guard Codex or played against and Imperial Guard psycher – You’re obviously a detective of unrivaled deductive reasoning!
But the ability to cast two powers a turn do make a noticeable difference on the battlefield: as an exemple, it would allow a Psyker Battle Squad to cast Weaken Resolve then hit its target with Soul Storm in the same turn, which is downright nasty (as if Weaken Resolve by itself wasn't strong enough...). There's a reason Space Marine Librarians pay a hefty 50 points to get this option. If your opponents have cheated you by pretending their bog-standard HQ could cast two powers a turn, no wonder you thought Farseers were sub-par Psykers.



Also, I forgot the Shining Spears in my analysis (I can't really figure how, they are my favorite aspect!). I think they should keep the same cost (they SHOULD feel elite), but give them either +1A (giving them pistols or whatnot) or giving them power weapons that double str when charging (like other people mentionned).
My main grip with Shining Spears is the fact that they lack a defined role in the Eldar army. Striking Scorpions slaughter hordes, Banshees kill the heavily armoured stuff, but there are no Eldar unit strong enough to kill a MC or a Vehicle in CC. Shining Spears should get re-rolls against Monstruous Creatures and Vehicles. At the moment, they're far too unfocused for my liking.



My thoughts exactly. In a previous letter to GW, I suggested that they bring back the old 1st edition bombing runs: the Hawks fly 24" and drop grenades on any unit under the flight path; not necessarily deadly in itself, but might offer some interesting possibilities as a supporting unit (Hawks drop plasma grenades, then any Eldar unit assaulting the Hawks' target that turn count as having assault grenades, etc. etc.)
Ork Koptas have a similar rule, and I wouldn't be surpised if Swooping Hawks get this ability in the next book.


For the Farseer, it's because I want those powers to work, and an Eldar Farseer, of all psykers, ought to be able to use his millennia of practice to break thorough any interference and assert her will.

I see your point, but I fear such a change would end up like the Tyranid Synapse rule, which was designed to make Warriors less vulnerable to Instant Death, but eventually paved the way for the Eternal Warrior spam that made Force Weapons pointless. I understand the new Space Wolves Codex and its ability to field 4 Rune Priests generated justified fears amongst Eldar players, but keep in mind Runes of Warding will make a short work of this army as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the Space Wolves Psykers died to Perils of the Warp in a couple of turns, considering they have a 40% chance of suffering a wound each time they try to cast a power.

Kelderaith
14-10-2009, 19:48
My main grip with Shining Spears is the fact that they lack a defined role in the Eldar army. Striking Scorpions slaughter hordes, Banshees kill the heavily armoured stuff, but there are no Eldar unit strong enough to kill a MC or a Vehicle in CC. Shining Spears should get re-rolls against Monstruous Creatures and Vehicles. At the moment, they're far too unfocused for my liking.

What they could do to enforce a bit more the Monstrous Creature Bane "aspect" of shining spears is increase their base str modifier to str 8 on charge instead of 6. As such, they would really slaughter MC, while being relatively equivalent as they are right now against troop. It would also make their lance rule worthwhile as having str 6 lance really is worthless (yay I can glance raiders :eyebrows:). Such a change wouldnt require +1A or always powerweapon though, because they would be more precise/defined but the point is not to make them overpowered either. I still stand my point on a nade-like rules though, uber cc specialist in a specialist army definately should have nade equivalent.

incarna
14-10-2009, 19:48
Considering the roll of the aspect, I strongly feel Fire Dragons are perfect as they currently are with two exceptions – I think the Exarch upgrade should be cheaper and he should have an exarch power that makes Fire Dragons immune to wounds caused by vehicles that explode within 1d6”.

Easily 30% of my fire dragon casualties come as a result of them nuking a vehicle which in turn nukes them by exploding all over them.

Gwyidion
14-10-2009, 20:15
An idea for banshees, change war shout to confer furious charge, and change acrobatic to - this unit may assault on the same turn it disembarked from a transport.

brightblade
14-10-2009, 20:31
What a great thread!

Just to join in a little.

Vypers get higher AV. Slightly cheaper.

Shining Spears always having pwr weapon is sensible given their cost but I am not sure of the str upgrade of the spear from 6 to 8. The exarch has that (if you pay for it)and personally I have had no problem killing MC.

Dark Reapers should be relentless and slow and purposeful. (This I am very keen on, just seeing them stroll around a little firing would be cool and would not overpower them in my opinion. Right now, Reapers are deployed on a hill/ in a building/ cover and just pop away. Which is all good because they can do loads of damage but a bit of mobility would just be great fluffwise and for game character. )

I also really like the idea of improving guardian shuri's, range 24" rapid fire lasguns instead? Storm Guardians should be WS4, shooty guardians maybe BS4? Support Weapons and Falcons BS4?

Totally agree on the Fire Dragon dying in explosions issue, 3+ armour (loss of fleet) or fnp anyone? Fire Dragons do need to be slightly hardier.

Exarchs should be two wound upgrades.

Dire Avengers should also have 2ccw. That just makes sense, especially with Defend as a power and shimmershied suggesting that they often get into combat. Which they do.

edit; By using the word 'should' I am just thinking aloud, not being bossy! :D

Gwyidion
14-10-2009, 21:15
The fundamental problem with dark reapers is that their ap3 weapons don't matter when everything (pretty much) has a 4+ cover save. Giving them Slow and purposeful (which confers relentless) won't help matters (though its a cool ability).

An idea - make the reaper launcher a barrage weapon. Now cover is measured from the center of the blast (which means no cover except in area terrain), and it scatters 2d6-4 (5 for the exarch). Drop the price down somewhere around 25-30 points, and increase squad size to 3-8.

I still like the brightlance idea someone had.

25 points for a barrage reaper launcher (s5 ap3 small blast, barrage 1), entire unit may exchange their launchers for bright lances at +10 points a model?

That would be 280 points for 8 bs 4 bright lances, or 6 hits, 1 glance, and 2 pens vs AV12, each turn (not counting the exarch)

Hellebore
14-10-2009, 23:08
;4036732']One question remains: why should the Avatar be more powerful than any other Greater Daemon in the game? He's tougher than a Great Unclean (2+ save and T7), and stronger than a Blood Thirster (S8 by default). His current profile is in line with the other Codices. Whether Greater Daemons should be more powerful or not is a whole another issue, but at the moment, the only thing the Avatar sorely needs is Eternal Warrior. You'd expect the Eldar God of War to get such a rule...

Avatar
WS10 BS10 S7 T7 W4 I7 A4 Ld10 Sv2+
(Suin Dellae adding either +1S or +1A)
Bloodthirster
WS10 BS4 S7 T6 W4 I5 A5 Ld10 Sv3+
(Furious Charge)
Great Unclean One
WS6 BS4 S6 T6 W5 I2 A4 Ld10 Sv-
(Feel No Pain and poisoned (2+) attacks)
Keeper of Secrets
WS8 BS4 S6 T6 W4 I10 A5 Ld10 Sv-
(Aura of Acquiescence - defensive offensive grenades)

Those are the standard stats and abilities for greater daemons vs my proposed avatar. The Avatar will cost as much as the Bloodthirster (as I said), which is as much as a landraider, 25% more than a Keeper of Secrets and almost 66% more than a Great Unclean One.

The Avatar can either match the bloodthirster's A value or its S value, but not both at the same time. These don't include all the daemonic gifts either, which can put a Bloodthirster to S8 basic and S9 on the charge.

Compare this to the 2nd ed stats when greater daemons were more than just 'units' to be expended on the battlefield:

Bloodthirster
WS10 BS10 S8 T7 W10 I10 A10 Ld10
Avatar
WS10 BS10 S8 T8 W7 I10 A5 Ld10

EDIT: Might as well complain that a fleshy creature like the Carnifex can get a 2+ sv and T7 AND regeneration. It isn't that the avatar is better than the GUO, it's that the GUO should be better than it is. I was thoroughly disappointed with its stats when the chaos codex came out.



Hellebore

LususNaturae
15-10-2009, 01:18
WHAT SILDANI WOULD DO WITH THE ELDAR CODEX

HQ:
Autarch: Loses the Strategy Rating thing, gains Tactical Mastery: The Autarch counts as a scoring unit. This ability is conferred to the squad the Autarch joins. Everything else remains the same.

Love this.




Farseer (125 pts): Gains Runes of Warding and Runes of Witnessing as standard equipment. May choose up to two psychic powers for free. Gains Psychic Potence: If a Farseer's successfully cast psychic power is stopped, negated etc. for any reason, the Eldar player may roll 1d6. On a 4+, the power is used normally. This may be done every time the power is stopped, negated, etc. Everything else, including the powers themselves, remains the same.


Also love this.




Eldrad Ulthran (275 pts): Gains Psychic Puissance: Successfully cast psychic powers used by Eldrad may never be stopped, negated, etc. in addition, whenever an opponent's psychic power targets Eldrad and/or the unit he's attached to, the Eldar player may roll a 1d6. On a 4+, Eldrad may use that same power, immediately and without restriction on the number of shooting attacks he previously made, although all other restrictions must be obeyed. The original power is negated. (There! Master of psychics again!)


Possibly a bit OTT. I'd say drop the mirroring abilty and you'd be golden.






TROOPS:

Guardians: May take either one heavy Weapon platform or one support weapon platform for every ten members of the squad. If the squad takes one or more support weapons, the squad gains Slow and Purposeful. Gains Tactical Withdrawal: The Eldar know full well that a tactical retreat to preserve valuable Eldar lives is sometimes the only option, and make fighting withdrawals rather than dying where they stand. Guardians that fall back due to casualties inflicted will not rally and must continue to fall back even if above half strength. Any squad removed from play in this way that is above half strength does not award a kill point to the opponent.

Storm Guardians: become WS 4, gain Tactical Withdrawal. All else remains the same.

Dire Avengers: all gain shuriken pistol and CCW for free. This makes them a bit more useful in CC. All else remains the same.



I like the guardians rule, very fluffy. And CCW//Pistol on the Avenngers is a must have IMO.




Harlequins: gain the Solitaire (175 pts). This uses the normal Harlie statline and abilities, with the following additions: WS 7, BS 7, +1 Wound, I 7. Equipped with The Solitaire's Kiss, which is a matched pair of Harlequin's Kisses that confer +2 Attacks and have Rending on a 5+ to-Wound roll. Quicksilver: may Assault 12"; if the Solitaire only moves 6" or less to assault, gains +1 Attack in addition to the normal +1 Attack for charging. Also gains a 3+ invulnerable save. Touch of Misfortune: may not be moved in the Movement Phase within 6" of another Eldar unit, except for Wraithguard, Wraithlords, any HQ choice, Harlequins, and models with an Armor Value. If they start a Movement Phase within 6", they must be moved 6" or further away. (represents the dread they inspire in other Eldar). Independent Character. Dance of Death, flip belt, Fleet of Foot.


While I like these rules, I fully expect the solitare to be in the dark eldar codex.



Considering the roll of the aspect, I strongly feel Fire Dragons are perfect as they currently are with two exceptions – I think the Exarch upgrade should be cheaper and he should have an exarch power that makes Fire Dragons immune to wounds caused by vehicles that explode within 1d6”.

Easily 30% of my fire dragon casualties come as a result of them nuking a vehicle which in turn nukes them by exploding all over them.

This is a nice idea. You would think they'd be good at dodging shrapnel after blowing up two dozen tanks...


An idea for banshees, change war shout to confer furious charge, and change acrobatic to - this unit may assault on the same turn it disembarked from a transport.

I really don't like the idea of banshees getting Furious Charge, staying at S3 is one of the iconic difference between Scorps, Harlys and Banshees, and truly helps to assert their role on the battlefield.

Acrobatic though.....that's a good idea!

Gwyidion
15-10-2009, 01:44
On the autarch tactical mastery ability - specify that it specifically applies to aspect squads. Otherwise you could have scoring seer councils (assuming no major changes to warlocks/farseers).

farseer - enemies must reroll successful checks to negate eldar powers.
eldrad - powers cannot be negated, nullified, or in any other way negatively affected (275 pts +, just because of the certainty this gives a list dependent on farseer powers)

dragons - forged in flame - this unit is immune to the effects of destroyed-wrecked! and destroyed-explodes! results, in all cases.
This also allows them to climb out of the wreckage of their own tanks without problems.

Hellebore
15-10-2009, 01:49
I think that the Falcon should become more like a land raider and less like a Razorback. It should be a main battle tank, not a bad battle tank and a bad troop transport.

The problem is that the Wave Serpent does both the jobs of a Falcon, only better. Anti tank? Twinlinked brightlance better than pulse laser. Troop transport? 12 is better than 6.

However, the wave serpent would need a drastic retconn to become worse, as its forcefield etc are rather integral to the model.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Given the rather fudamental changes to moving fast and Armour, the artificially suppressed eldar AVs need to change. Now a Leman Russ can get the same protection a falcon gets from moving fast, except it does so with AV14 on the front and 13 on the side. And it doesn't need to give up its shooting to do so. This applies to all ground based tanks. The advantages for going flat out are virtually non existent. A falcon can receive the same cover save by moving 6" and ending up obscured without losing its ability to shoot.

However, it doesn't seem as though the moving fast = 4+ cover save will go away, so the artificially suppressed skimmmer armour values need to be completely redone. All skimmers traded armour for the skimmer glancing rule, but now that is no longer true. Now they trade armour for an ability any ground based vehicle gets by having their own troops in the way WITHOUT sacrificing an entire turn of shooting in the process.

Thus, eldar tanks (and skimmers in general) should receive armour boosts to make them as survivable as their ground based opponents.

So I would have the Falcon look something like this:

BS4 Front 13 Side 12 Rear 11

Fast, Tank, Skimmer

Two shuriken catapults (using the 18" range concept)

And one of the following Turret weapons:

Pulse Laser
60" S8 AP2 Heavy 2, Blast

Shuriken Blaster
48" S5 AP4 Heavy 8, Pinning

Star Fury
36" S7 AP2 Heavy 3, Blast

and so on.

You may attach an eldar heavy weapon as a pintel mount.

The Guard codex really set the bar for vehicular weaponry. That precedent means there is little you cannot do with such weaponry in other armies.

Note that my opinion of eldar heavy weapons is low at the moment. Each one should be a specific weapon for a specific job and equally valuable. The above superheavy weapons are based on my ideas of eldar heavy weaponry:

Shuriken cannon
30" S5 AP4 Assault 4
Scatter laser
36" S6 AP5 Heavy 6
Starcannon
36" S7 AP2 Heavy 1, Blast (still not sure about this one. I like the idea of rapid fire, but the plasma cannon is simply superior due to the blast rules and S. I'd be tempted to make it S6 blast 2 but I'm sure cheese cries would ensue. :cool:)
Brightlance
48" S10 AP1 Heavy 1
Missile Launcher
48" S8 AP2 Heavy 1
48" S5 AP3 Heavy 1, Blast, Pinning

Also:
Heavy weapon platforms should be counted as artillery pieces that can be destroyed and can move and fire. Eldar artillery can only be destroyed on a penetrating hit though. You should be able to take 2 in a unit of defenders (at max size of course). With greater power comes greater chance that they can be destroyed.

Support weapons.
These just aren't that good. They should have higher armour (say 11 or 12 all round) to make them more survivable.

Shadow Weavers should use the large blast template (yes, they should)
D-cannons should have a 36" range and be S10 (poisoned 2+) and ignore invulnerable saves (maybe on wound rolls of 6...)
Vibrocannons should cause enemy units to move in difficult terrain and shouldn't require a roll to hit. Simply draw a line ala Jaws of the World wolf. Combined shots cause additional hits AND strength (3 vibro cannons together would thus cause 1D6+2 S6 hits).



Hellebore

Badger[Fr]
15-10-2009, 09:02
Now a Leman Russ can get the same protection a falcon gets from moving fast, except it does so with AV14 on the front and 13 on the side.
Theorically, yes. However, hiding a Leman Russ without granting a cover save to its target as well is easier said than done.



Thus, eldar tanks (and skimmers in general) should receive armour boosts to make them as survivable as their ground based opponents.
Thanks to Holofields and Force fields, they already are. Anyway, High Av is overrated in 5th Edition, considering the sheer number of Melta weapons running around. There's a reason the most competitive IG builds don't bother with Av14 and spam Av12 instead.


A falcon can receive the same cover save by moving 6" and ending up obscured without losing its ability to shoot.
If you change the Holofield rule so that it always grant a 4+ cover save on the move, it would be fine. Though, I doubt Av13 would be needed: Fire Prisms are perfectly fine as they are, and they are only Av12.



The Guard codex really set the bar for vehicular weaponry. That precedent means there is little you cannot do with such weaponry in other armies.
The difference is that the Imperial Guard heavily rely on its Heavy Support choices, far more than any army. The Eldar, however, are supposed to favour mobility over raw firepower.

Poseidal
15-10-2009, 09:23
The difference is Guard do 75% of what Eldar do for 50% of the cost.

Also Eldar are about high mobility AND firepower but at high cost.

MajorWesJanson
15-10-2009, 10:49
4+ cover save in the open, heavier weapons, or higher armor all tread pretty heavily on the Tau arsenal. What I would do is simply make an upgrade or rule for Eldar vehicles (maybe not the Prism) that they can fire all weapons moving up to 12" or 1 weapon at faster speeds. It keeps their mobility up while not simply overlapping the Tau vehicles.

Poseidal
15-10-2009, 11:43
Thing is, all those things were Eldar things before Tau even hit the drawing board.

The static 4+ save is due to cover, which in the old rules were -1, -2 etc. to hit. The old Holofield did exactly that, as do the Titan holofields in Apocalypse. The current Holofield makes no sense, and isn't in line with other equipment of similar type.

As for Firepower, the Fire Prism was nerfed to a pathetic state. Compared to a Battlecannon in 2nd, it had +1 Strength and an additional -1 to armour saves and had the same blast. The only advantage the Battlecannon had was a longer range, exactly as it is now. For no reason, it became a Small Blast while the Battle Cannon kept the larger blast and gained the new Ordnance rules.

The Shuriken Catapult I don't even need to start on.

As for Armour, comparing the Fire Prism and Leman Russ, the Russ had superior (front) hull armour and (all round) Turret armour, but was equal to or sometimes even worse on the other facings. In fact, compare the Prism/Falcon with the Land Raider, only the LR Hull Armour was better than the Prism (albeit, it was hit most often on the hull), the other locations were the same or even inferior!

For worn armour, Eldar Aspects when they were introduced had 3/6 with 3+ saves, 2/6 with 4+ and 1/6 with 5+ (hawks) with no movement penalty. Compared with Space Marines at the time, who only had a 4+ save (3+ if combined with flak, which would give a movement penalty), Eldar actually had better saves on an Aspect heavy force.

If you look at Guardians, they wear full body suits that look a lot more protective (in an coverage and advanced way) than the Flak jackets on Guardsmen. I would say they should be equal to the less advanced Fire Warrior suit.

Eldar on the whole are meant to be low in numbers, no tougher than an average man for the troops (T3) but should have sophisticated and powerful gear and high points cost to make up for it. Since 3rd edition, we get hordes of guys with mediocre or even poor armour with sub-par weapons, the 'Guardian Meat Shield' was one of the biggest travesties for the background yet basically exists now as they're just ablaitive wounds for a heavy weapon due to their short ranged guns.

Karhedron
15-10-2009, 11:52
An idea for banshees, change acrobatic to - this unit may assault on the same turn it disembarked from a transport.

Nice though it might feel, I think this would just make CC units too powerful. GW got rid of assaulting from Transports in 4th edition for a reason, it was too powerful! Anyone remember horrors from 3rd edition like the Rhino Rush? Marines on skateboards. :rolleyes:

Space Marines get assault ramps because they are the poster boys of 40K and they have to buy a 250 point tank to do it. Allowing Eldar to do the same from a transport that costs half the points would just be too good IMHO. There is no strategy in just rushing your asault troops at the enemy in this way, it becomes a point-and-click tactic.

jams86
15-10-2009, 12:13
Space Marines get assault ramps because they are the poster boys of 40K and they have to buy a 250 point tank to do it. Allowing Eldar to do the same from a transport that costs half the points would just be too good IMHO. There is no strategy in just rushing your asault troops at the enemy in this way, it becomes a point-and-click tactic.

i'd like that option, at least i might win once in a while then :p

CoolKidRoc
15-10-2009, 13:49
i'd like that option, at least i might win once in a while then :p

Ditto, my usally oppponents have become way to accustemed to the banshee wave serpertent and usualy block the entrance so that I cannot exit the vehicle when I move it for next turn assault range.

Badger[Fr]
15-10-2009, 14:23
The difference is Guard do 75% of what Eldar do for 50% of the cost.
A commonly held misconception, as any seasoned IG player will show you that a Guard tournament army is widely different from an Eldar tournament army, but that's not the point of the thread anyway.



The static 4+ save is due to cover, which in the old rules were -1, -2 etc. to hit. The old Holofield did exactly that, as do the Titan holofields in Apocalypse. The current Holofield makes no sense, and isn't in line with other equipment of similar type.

As for Firepower, the Fire Prism was nerfed to a pathetic state. Compared to a Battlecannon in 2nd, it had +1 Strength and an additional -1 to armour saves and had the same blast. The only advantage the Battlecannon had was a longer range, exactly as it is now. For no reason, it became a Small Blast while the Battle Cannon kept the larger blast and gained the new Ordnance rules.

The Shuriken Catapult I don't even need to start on.

As for Armour, comparing the Fire Prism and Leman Russ, the Russ had superior (front) hull armour and (all round) Turret armour, but was equal to or sometimes even worse on the other facings. In fact, compare the Prism/Falcon with the Land Raider, only the LR Hull Armour was better than the Prism (albeit, it was hit most often on the hull), the other locations were the same or even inferior!

For worn armour, Eldar Aspects when they were introduced had 3/6 with 3+ saves, 2/6 with 4+ and 1/6 with 5+ (hawks) with no movement penalty. Compared with Space Marines at the time, who only had a 4+ save (3+ if combined with flak, which would give a movement penalty), Eldar actually had better saves on an Aspect heavy force.

If you look at Guardians, they wear full body suits that look a lot more protective (in an coverage and advanced way) than the Flak jackets on Guardsmen. I would say they should be equal to the less advanced Fire Warrior suit.

Eldar on the whole are meant to be low in numbers, no tougher than an average man for the troops (T3) but should have sophisticated and powerful gear and high points cost to make up for it. Since 3rd edition, we get hordes of guys with mediocre or even poor armour with sub-par weapons, the 'Guardian Meat Shield' was one of the biggest travesties for the background yet basically exists now as they're just ablaitive wounds for a heavy weapon due to their short ranged guns.
We know the Second Edition Eldar were insanely good (arguably too good, even by Second Edition standards), but how is it relevant to the current ruleset? Whether Eldar (and Space Marine, in that regard) armies should have a lower model count is an interesting question, but GW won't change its mind anyway.


GW got rid of assaulting from Transports in 4th edition for a reason, it was too powerful! Anyone remember horrors from 3rd edition like the Rhino Rush? Marines on skateboards.
The good old days of 3rd Edition, when a Marine vs Marine matchup was the most boring thing in the universe: both sides spent the whole game cowering in their transports while firing Meltaguns from the hatch in order to blow the opponent's Rhinos and charge him. Another reason to like 5th Edition, I suppose.

Bunnahabhain
15-10-2009, 15:12
Ditto, my usally oppponents have become way to accustemed to the banshee wave serpertent and usualy block the entrance so that I cannot exit the vehicle when I move it for next turn assault range.

So use this.

If you opponent wants to block the WS exit, then position a unit or two where they can shred the blocking unit with bladestorm or whatever. Force him to choose between losing the blocking unit,a nd having the WS move of next turn, or letting the banshees loose.

If there is a predictable sequence of actions, look at the end of it, and make it work for you

Poseidal
15-10-2009, 15:58
We know the Second Edition Eldar were insanely good (arguably too good, even by Second Edition standards), but how is it relevant to the current ruleset?
That misses the point of the statement. I was demonstrating how it was Tau that took a load of Eldar themes and ran with them, those things that were demonstrated were each originally Eldar concepts. Putting them back would not be 'infringing' on anything Tau, and could easily be pointed up to show the difference.

It's relevant to the current ruleset because the current list doesn't match well with the established fluff which has largely been the same since the Rogue Trader Craftworld list; most of the 2nd ed codex was reprinted word for word in the 4th edition one.

Things were relatively downgraded and downpointed for no reason, leading ultimately to Guardian Meatshields. The correct course of action would have been to up-point appropriately.

Emeraldw
15-10-2009, 16:12
;4040795']A commonly held misconception, as any seasoned IG player will show you that a Guard tournament army is widely different from an Eldar tournament army, but that's not the point of the thread anyway.



I think his point, is more that Guard are on par with current codex costs while Eldar are still very expensive.

Why did you bring up Tournament armies? Seer Councils on bikes are the Eldar tournament lists.

Sildani
15-10-2009, 16:18
I think I've just noticed a minor crisis here. What exactly do we want the Eldar to be?

Relatively few, elite models that are point-intensive? If so, I'm seeing quite a few people on this thread stating that Eldar are already expensive and seem to need cheapening. If an elite army is wanted, shouldn't we try to raise abilities of expensive units so that they reflect their current cost?

Or do the majority want cheaper Eldar to get more boots on the table? This needs to be resolved first. To each his or her own, but I'd rather fewer, elite Eldar, thus my Codex post awhile back.

CoolKidRoc
15-10-2009, 16:25
I would love small elite, but that would mean they would actually need to be elite, and not as fragile as they are now. But then I don't want to run into the problem where if i want to experience my codex and have multiple units on the board I need to play 2,500 pts or more. So lol... who knows :D

Emeraldw
15-10-2009, 16:39
I think I've just noticed a minor crisis here. What exactly do we want the Eldar to be?

Relatively few, elite models that are point-intensive? If so, I'm seeing quite a few people on this thread stating that Eldar are already expensive and seem to need cheapening. If an elite army is wanted, shouldn't we try to raise abilities of expensive units so that they reflect their current cost?

Or do the majority want cheaper Eldar to get more boots on the table? This needs to be resolved first. To each his or her own, but I'd rather fewer, elite Eldar, thus my Codex post awhile back.

Currently it is sorta the latter so it would be easier to just fine tune it to that.

To be more like what you purposing would need a large change to the army. Giving Eldar additional survivability (for the troops at least) doesn't fit the theme, so they need firepower. But how much firepower? Dire avengers with 24" Assault 3? Banshees with 2 attacks base?

That said, I think the current makeup is ok. Marines should be technically even smaller in size than Eldar but we don't see that. The only "horde" unit is Guardians and that is more about costing appropriately. Boosting them would be fine but what happens when you over boost to compete with Avengers? Guardians to me should be there as a standard unit to sit in one spot with 1 or 2 heavy weapons (at BS4 please!). Avengers are meant to be transported into battle. I would love it if they came with a CCW/SP but that might not fit the goal of Dire Avengers.

Personally, I see little reason to reinvent the wheel. Some boosts here and there with some cost cuts and Eldar are good to go.

the_picto
15-10-2009, 17:03
I'd like a small elite army. Perhaps make aspect warriors on par with berserkers, plague marines, sternguard etc. They should be better armoured and slightly better at what they do, but cost more. Banshees, scorpions, avengers and dragons for 20-25pts and the rest costing appropriately more.

How about giving the avatar prefered enemy against everyone? I feel he should be the most skilled warrior in the game, but currently has to share that spot with the bloodthirster. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about the thirster, I just feel he should he about brute strength and the avatar about skill. So the avatar gets prefered enemy and better iniative, the thirster gets higher strength and furious charge.

If people want to change acrobatic, maybe it could make the banshees ignore terrain when they charge. useful and solves the problem of banshee mask not working with terrain anymore. What's wrong with counter attack though?

marv335
15-10-2009, 17:04
I'm sorry, but I don't see any justification for Bs4 guardians.
They're citizen levy, not warriors.
Also assault ramps on transports?
Not without a significant price rise. They'd be badly broken, I can't see it.

Dhevan
15-10-2009, 17:42
Hi there. I've been lurking in the background for quite a while now, so this is my first time posting.

I've been playing Eldar on and off for quite a while now (since 2nd or there abouts). I really like 5th, and I think for the most part the current Codex is quite serviceable.

I've read through the suggestions so far, and most are quite reasonable. The one thing I noticed that we lack are new army-wide rules, like ATSKNF.

I would like to see something that fixes what "run" took away: the advantage of Fleet. It could be something that would allow roll 2D6 and pick the best for our run. Or maybe certain units can shoot AND run.

The army-wide rules would help define what makes the Eldar unique.

The other thing that I would like is more tank options. I like the falcon, but it would also make sense to mount some of the heavier options on a tank (vibro cannon, etc).

I'll post more later, I'm sure.

Gwyidion
15-10-2009, 18:31
Options for fleet - running is 2d6, choose highest, and retains the run & assault bonus.

Or, fleet allows the unit to make a 6" move in the assault phase, even if it doesn't assault (like jetbikes).

and i can't think of a name, but - any eldar unit may regroup even if below 50% starting strength (based off the assumption that eldar fight only battles they simply must win, and ever eldar warrior knows this - they are so dedicated to the craftworld that they will sacrifice their own life for its survival).

Psychic perception - all eldar are inherently psychic beings, and so have enhanced senses well beyond the acuity of any other race. All eldar add 6" to any spotting roll they must take, and fight with one additional initiative, added after all other initiative bonuses have been applied.

Badger[Fr]
15-10-2009, 19:10
I would like to see something that fixes what "run" took away: the advantage of Fleet. It could be something that would allow roll 2D6 and pick the best for our run. Or maybe certain units can shoot AND run.
This sounds reasonable and would favour foot-slogging builds without being overpowered.



and i can't think of a name, but - any eldar unit may regroup even if below 50% starting strength (based off the assumption that eldar fight only battles they simply must win, and ever eldar warrior knows this - they are so dedicated to the craftworld that they will sacrifice their own life for its survival).
Well, the Avatar of Khaine already provides a 12" Fearless aura. Plus, I don't think each and every army should ignore the moral rules. It's getting tedious. If anything, an Aspect Warrior value his life far more than a fanatical, endoctrined Guardsman or Space Marine, because he knows what awaits him after death. Maybe units who have LoS on the Avatar should be able regroup, even under 50% starting strength?



Psychic perception - all eldar are inherently psychic beings, and so have enhanced senses well beyond the acuity of any other race. All eldar add 6" to any spotting roll they must take, and fight with one additional initiative, added after all other initiative bonuses have been applied.
The Acute Senses USR comes to mind here.

Gwyidion
15-10-2009, 19:21
;4041711']. If anything, an Aspect Warrior value his life far more than a fanatical, endoctrined Guardsman or Space Marine, because he knows what awaits him after death.


What, being put in a super-awesome badass wraith construct!? That doesn't sound so bad.

Emeraldw
15-10-2009, 19:52
I'm sorry, but I don't see any justification for Bs4 guardians.
They're citizen levy, not warriors.
Also assault ramps on transports?
Not without a significant price rise. They'd be badly broken, I can't see it.

I personally just want BS 4 on the heavy weapons guardians have, not BS 4 flat out. If they get 2 Heavy weapons, ok but with only one, I think BS4 is necessary.

Why do you think assault ramps are broken? Orks use open top vehicles all the time with far better CC power than Eldar. Right now, Only elite units can really utilize assault ramp vehicles and I don't think they mean have them on wave serpents all around, just some select vehicles.

Dhevan
15-10-2009, 19:55
Had another thought with regards to the Phoenix Lords. I actually really like the concept, but I can rarely justify taking up one of the two HQ slots for one of these characters. I'd rather have an Avatar, Farseer or even one of the new suggestions I saw on this thread (a combat psychic Warseer).

Instead, what if the PL's were simply a character add on, similar to the Exarch, only better. Kind of like Zagstrukk for the Orks, he would confer a bonus to the squad he joined. They would be unique (one per type per army, so no taking two Maugan-Ra's) and only make the squad they join scoring (instead of all units of the same type). They would have to be balanced as such (power level wise), and confer some type of bonus to the squad, but would be essentially super-exarchs instead of independent characters.

Re: Psychers - As I look through our gear there's really nothing that shuts down other Psychic powers. Runes can make it dangerous for other Psychers to use their powers, but nothing just says "sorry, no Psychic powers for you today" that I've seen in other armies.

Karhedron
15-10-2009, 20:03
Re: Psychers - As I look through our gear there's really nothing that shuts down other Psychic powers. Runes can make it dangerous for other Psychers to use their powers, but nothing just says "sorry, no Psychic powers for you today" that I've seen in other armies.
I beg to differ. Runes of Warding cause psychic test to be taken on 3D6. Average of 3D6 = 10.5 and the best psychers in the game are only LD10. This means Runes will block more than 50% of all enemy psychic powers.

They can affect the whole battlefield and can be used against any and all powers. I would say they are better than psychic Hoods. Only SW Runic weapons come close and their only advantage is that they can stack.

Runes of Witnessing rock!

P.S. They are great fun against Thousand Sons. My regular opponent usually kills at least a third of his own sorcerers during any given game and occasionally his own Daemon Princes. :D

Dhevan
15-10-2009, 20:10
I beg to differ. Runes of Warding cause psychic test to be taken on 3D6. Average of 3D6 = 10.5 and the best psychers in the game are only LD10. This means Runes will block more than 50% of all enemy psychic powers.


I agree, but I was thinking something more like the bubble of no Psychic powers, maybe something like a psychic hood for the Warlocks. For me it's just for a race of super-psychers, they don't feel like they have the market quite cornered as much as I would expect.

You're right. They are certainly better than psychic hoods. Maybe it's just a case of a slightly lesser power for the Warlocks so that it's not all up to the Farseer.

Badger[Fr]
15-10-2009, 20:11
Why do you think assault ramps are broken? Orks use open top vehicles all the time with far better CC power than Eldar.
Av 10 Open Topped Trukks and slow Battlewagons are hardly comparable to a Fast Av 12 Skimmer with a Force Field, though.



They can affect the whole battlefield and can be used against any and all powers. I would say they are better than psychic Hoods. Only SW Runic weapons come close and their only advantage is that they can stack.
But Runic Weapons won't cause Perils of the Warp, contrary to Runes of Warding (a 40% chance to suffer an unsavable wound is rather intimidating).

CoolKidRoc
15-10-2009, 20:46
Ok so my thoughts for real this time :D

Farseer:
Toughness 4 - If just from the shear stamina growth of centuries of battling with Psykic Abilities
Doom 36" Range
Guide and Fortune 18" Range - I'm tired of him having to baby sit whoever I want him to enhance.
Mind War 18" Range - May be used in either shooting or assault phase of controlling player. If in assault phase Farseer gives up close combat that turn. May target any model even those in combat. Roll off of LD, If Farseer Ties or Wins model is removed from play as there mind is sucked into the warp.
Eldrich Storm - 36" Range - Str6 AP 6 Pinning

Wraithsword and Spear: as is but wounds caused by the weapons can not have a save better then 4+ (invulsaves can be better then 4+)

Warlocks:
Base 2 Attacks, these guys are supposed to be Master Warriors of many paths.
Maybe 2 Wounds (increase in points by 5-10)
All powers are good, but make Conceal 4+ cover save.

Autarchs:
Never played with really so I don't know, but toughness 4 would make since for these guys.

Dire Avengers:
Give them Pistol and CC or make Avengers Cats 30" Range, as an Eldar player it's very annoying having to get into assault range just to be able to shoot my enemy - Nids eat me alive when I'm on foot.

Banshees:
I love these girls, but they should have armor 3+ and Furious Charge and of course Banshee Mask worded correctly.

Fire Dragons
Increase Points Slightly and give FNP (being in the direct path of exploding tanks FDs no longer feel pain)
Increase save to 3+ (that should deal with exploding tank debris as I'm sure every dragon expects it they would wear armor to help)
Exarch needs close combat weapon along with his other weapons.

Striking Scorpions
So far these guys are really good, but I think they should have Fleet.

Dark Reapers
Way to expensive, give slow and purposeful so I can move on from reserve games and shoot.

Hawks
You guess is as good as mine.

Warp Spiders
These guys seem pretty good I used them to pretty good effect once. Maybe go with the blast template some have mentioned or give the gun an AP value 4 or 5 and increase range to 18-24"s

Shining Spears
Lower cost, keep power weapon at Str through out combat.

Rangers
Lower the point cost down to scout costs. Right now they cost way to much.

Guardians
All should have 4+ save
Shurikan Cats go to 24" range (they're defending, you should be able to shoot the guy before they charge you close combat)

Defenders - can have 1 weapon platform per 5 guys and shoots at BS 4 as they have targeting equipment or whatever to help the normal citizens aim straight.
If they don't take normal weapon platforms they may take Support Platforms (fired at BS 4), 1 per 6 Defenders (Increase range and adjust so Support Platforms are useful)

Storm - Keep as is, give WS 4 and assault and defensive grenades

Guardian Jetbikes
Perfect as Is, but give BS 4 same reason as Weapon Platforms)

Vypers
Make BS 4 T5 2 Wound Bikes <-- Fixed and Done

Wraithguard
Increase range of weapon to 24"s, this way they can get off more then 1 shot before charged

Make and option for CC version, Dual CC wraith swords

Wraithlord
Get rid of twin-link dual weapon
Make base 3 attacks
Allow Dual Swords for +1 A +1 WS
Add 5++ Save

WarWalkers
Move to Fast Attack Slot
Make 11 | 10 | 10
That is all, unless increase points cost to 45 base and BS 4

WaveSerpents
Lower cost to 70 pts base
Add option for Assault Ramp 25-50 pts increase

Falcon
Keep Cost but lower cost of Holo-Fields
Make 13 | 12 | 11
Allow to shoot all weapons moving less the flat-out, and one weapon when moving flat out.

Fire Prism
Make 13 | 12 | 11

Phoenix Lords
Lower cost by like 25%
Allow them to be unit upgrades, 1 of each type per army.


Oh so these are my ideas, I'd type more but time to get back to working ;)

Emeraldw
15-10-2009, 22:01
;4041928']Av 10 Open Topped Trukks and slow Battlewagons are hardly comparable to a Fast Av 12 Skimmer with a Force Field, though.


Trukks are Fast, cheap as chips and hold a squad with better CC ability than most aspects. Battlewagons are mini landraiders which are cheaper and almost as good. Skimmers are paying a lot (perhaps too much atm) for their abilities. The OPTION to have SOME kind of assault transport I believe would be worthwhile and hardly game breaking.

As it currently is, I can assault who I like, but one Turn later, assuming I don't get said transport blown up on the turn I am waiting. It has happened before. Also, pretty much any unit inside said transport has the fear of being gunned down horribly and unlike above orks, there aren't a bunch more to take my place and Eldar aren't tough.

Now on Wave Serpents in general I think that it just isn't necessary, not overpowering, but I would like the Option for the highly mobile race to have an Assault vehicle.

marv335
15-10-2009, 22:08
Why do you think assault ramps are broken? Orks use open top vehicles all the time with far better CC power than Eldar. Right now, Only elite units can really utilize assault ramp vehicles and I don't think they mean have them on wave serpents all around, just some select vehicles.

With the defensive upgrades available on falcons and waveserpents (re-rollable saves from moving flat out with farseer assistance), and the armour 12 they are very hard to kill.
You can't really compare that to an Av10 open topped vehicle, arguably the easiest vehicle in 40k to kill.
Battlewagons are not fast, and are still open topped.
Plus a truuk only holds 12 boys, who almost everyone hits first in combat, and who only have a 6+ save.

Durath
15-10-2009, 22:14
Eldar Fleet needs an update because everyone gets run now, or because it's not "eldar only"?

Ahh... what a good hearty chuckle.

Maybe in the next Daemon's codex Daemons should get a special "Daemonic Fearlessness" update because other armies have Fearless units too.

Cognitave
15-10-2009, 22:15
CoolKidRoc, if you'd like to avoid disappointment in regards to your wishlist, play Space Marines. You're removing the essential fragility that's meant to accompany the Eldar. It's moved from "tactical precision" to "stupid broken".

The army doesn't need huge improvements as much as it needs some slight tweaking. Making it stupidly overpowered isn't the objective.

Emeraldw
15-10-2009, 22:17
Swooping Hawks:

Right now, they serve no function that another thing in the army doesn't do better. This isn't an issue per se, as that is true for many fast attack optoins. Spiders do anti horde, Spears do anti marine in CC. Vypers are fast moving weapon platforms.

What are Hawks? As of now, they are kinda anti infantry and kinda tank hunters. But don't do either role very well. They have about the best mobility there is for infantry with jump packs and fleet. Their guns are 24" range but are str 3 Assault 2, making spiders the superior choice here. Haywire grenades glance on a 2-5 but glances are not that strong anymore and many vehicles move at 12" or at least 6" making it not automatic for those 1 attacks per guy, intercept helps but they are still glances. They are T3, 4+ save making them easy to kill. They are expensive at 20+ points per model to do not very much other than a gimmky large blast template which has never done a whole lot in the few times I have ran them. What do you do?

First they need a role. I personally want to see Pinning be a useful option. The reason for this is that I feel like too many things in the game ignore what I would like to see is a useful way to deal with a crazy strong threat (Something that isn't fearless but LD 10 and crazy strong) without having to blow it away. I would also like to have a way to get the enemy to "dance" to my tune, get them to move a little at my bidding.

Lash of Submission is a good example of something like this but it is over the top. Pinning on the other hand locks down a unit, but you don't cause it harm. I would like it if Hawks got a grenade launcher that caused pinning checks at a -ld (like -3) or had to take multiple checks. Something that makes a pinning check RELIABLE or at least somewhat likely. I would love it if it got around Fearless for some reason, but that might be over the top to pin a large ork mob.

The other option is to make it so they can threaten anything on the board. Str 4 guns would help first. Second accurate deep strike would help followed by assaulting the turn they arrived. Masterful hit and run on a threat in the area. That Weapon team in the back causing issues? Hawks show up and get them. Leman Russ causing problems? Hawks dive out of the sky and make it have a bad day. I see no reason this would be horribly broken as they are far from being an extremely strong unit in CC and str 4, 2 shot guns is not going to annihilate a havoc squad though Lootas might have something to watch out for!

Both suggestions meet with what I see for hawks being. There are other ways I am sure but these would be useful and fit what I think Hawks are.

Edit: Harlequins:

I realized they they haven't been talked about so I will input my thoughts.

They are a great Counter attack unit. I would like to see them stay at 18 points a model but have the Kiss standard. Keeps their role, makes them more effective.

Emeraldw
15-10-2009, 22:26
With the defensive upgrades available on falcons and waveserpents (re-rollable saves from moving flat out with farseer assistance), and the armour 12 they are very hard to kill.
You can't really compare that to an Av10 open topped vehicle, arguably the easiest vehicle in 40k to kill.
Battlewagons are not fast, and are still open topped.
Plus a truuk only holds 12 boys, who almost everyone hits first in combat, and who only have a 6+ save.

They are also Str 4, have 3 attacks in assault, a Nob with a PK, fearless and there are usually more right behind them. But they are a different army in design so perhaps it isn't the best comparison.

In fact comparisons don't help get my point across. In the eldar list, I do not see how having ONE transport option with assault capabilities is game breaking. Having it on all of them is not the eldar way. Eldar aren't a CC army, Dark Eldar make more sense here. I still believe a heavy support option assault transport would be a nice addition to the army.

CoolKidRoc
15-10-2009, 22:27
CoolKidRoc, if you'd like to avoid disappointment in regards to your wishlist, play Space Marines. You're removing the essential fragility that's meant to accompany the Eldar. It's moved from "tactical precision" to "stupid broken".

The army doesn't need huge improvements as much as it needs some slight tweaking. Making it stupidly overpowered isn't the objective.

You're saying those are slight tweaks ;)

Well I know I didn't put point increases in there for everything, but some of those things would need them, I just don't know by how much. But I think alot of that, along with slight increases here and decreases there would make them tactical precise again, and give a new flair for what they can do and handle with maybe a smaller unit count.

And besides, I play 40k, it's disappointment all over the place :D

Cognitave
15-10-2009, 22:27
Perhaps a Special Operations rule, which allows them to select between S4 AP3 weapons, CCW and pistols, or Tank Hunters and some Anti tank 'nades?

Sorros
15-10-2009, 22:43
Perhaps a Special Operations rule, which allows them to select between S4 AP3 weapons, CCW and pistols, or Tank Hunters and some Anti tank 'nades?

AP3 assault weapons on guys that deep strike, are jump infantry, and have fleet? Cries of cheese abound.

Maybe AP4. Would make more sense. Also, Shuri cats should be AP4, and longer range as said before.

Hawks do need a S4 gun, though. For the...what, 21? 22? pts a model, they are an expensive unit that is outdone by cheaper units at specific roles.

Badger[Fr]
15-10-2009, 22:49
Skimmers are paying a lot (perhaps too much atm) for their abilities.
Do they? Compared to the much vaunted Valkyrie, the Wave Serpent is still a solid choice - it lacks Scout and the free Multilaser, but doesn't take a FA choice, has a lower profile and an awesome Force field, the latter being unvaluable against the current Melta plague. Not to mention the fact that a mechanized Aspect squad is much more threatening than a mechanized IG squad (or a Veteran squad, in that regard)...


In the eldar list, I do not see how having ONE transport option with assault capabilities is game breaking.
Is it game-breaking? Maybe not, it's hard to tell without play testing. But in terms gameplay, it's just plain uninteresting. There's a reason 4th Edition get rid of Rhino Rush. If anything, mechanized builds hardly need any boost at the moment. An improved Fleet move should be enough to give mechanized CC squads the slight edge they currently lack.



Eldar Fleet needs an update because everyone gets run now, or because it's not "eldar only"?
The issue is, mobility has always been a mainstay of Eldar armies, but the current Fleet rule doesn't make sense, as only the CC-dedicated Aspects will ever benefit from it.

Durath
15-10-2009, 23:09
;4042394']The issue is, mobility has always been a mainstay of Eldar armies, but the current Fleet rule doesn't make sense, as only the CC-dedicated Aspects will ever benefit from it.

Pah.... BS... since the whole army gets it, how can you say the other units can't benefit from it too?

Let's say you're an Eldar player tied with 3 objectives each against a Daemon player. There is an objective that a Pink Horror squad is sitting next to and shooting from. You've got the second turn, and its turn five.

Now... you've got a banshee squad, but it's 17" away from the horrors, and a Guardian squad 13" away and it's the bottom of turn 5. Neither unit is next to an existing objective, and can contest the Pink Horror objective, granting a win.

Do you risk moving JUST the Banshees? Or do you move them both and attempt to launch an assault? It's a no brainer... you move them both, because the Banshees might not make it, and the Guardians can go toe to toe with the Horrors and might actually win on a charge. At the least, they will be able to contest it.

There... guardians benefited from Fleet, even though they are a shooting squad. This same scenario could be played out with Dire Avengers.

Dhevan
15-10-2009, 23:25
Pah.... BS... since the whole army gets it, how can you say the other units can't benefit from it too?

I don't think it's about units not benefiting from Fleet. I'm pretty sure you can find a use for Fleet for any unit that has it.

The issue is how movement differs from 4th to 5th. We know Run is not Fleet, but in 4th only units with Fleet could Run. That made Eldar and Tyranids foot sloggers FAST. (Faster than any other army). Now, with Run, that's not the case. Everyone is FAST, not just units with Fleet.
And not the whole army gets Fleet: Scorpions don't, for example, and they probably should.

This is more of an idea to bring back the idea that foot based Eldar move FAST, not just mechanized.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Run rule is fantastic. But I would like to see something that would make the footslogging Eldar more viable. I mean, more than just a Wraithwall...

Badger[Fr]
15-10-2009, 23:31
And not the whole army gets Fleet: Scorpions don't, for example, and they probably should.
They shouldn't, actually. Scorpions favour armour over mobility, it has always been part of their fluff. However, their Exarch should get a 2+ armour save. If the Dire Avenger and Howling Banshee Exarchs get a 3+ save instead of the standard 4+, why shouldn't Scorpion Exarchs get an improved save as well?

CoolKidRoc
15-10-2009, 23:36
;4042490']They shouldn't, actually. Scorpions favour armour over mobility, it has always been part of their fluff. However, their Exarch should get a 2+ armour save. If the Dire Avenger and Howling Banshee Exarchs get a 3+ save instead of the standard 4+, why shouldn't Scorpion Exarchs get an improved save as well?

I'd rather they have fleet ;)

Dhevan
15-10-2009, 23:45
;4042490']They shouldn't, actually. Scorpions favour armour over mobility, it has always been part of their fluff. However, their Exarch should get a 2+ armour save. If the Dire Avenger and Howling Banshee Exarchs get a 3+ save instead of the standard 4+, why shouldn't Scorpion Exarchs get an improved save as well?

Good point. I just see the Banshees fleeting in and wish the same for the Scorpions. And the 2+ Armour save makes sense for the Exarch.

Sometimes I worry that some of these suggestions might try and fix things that are deliberate weaknesses, and Badger has a good point in bringing up the fluff. Some units are meant to have those limitations and for the player to work around/with them.

Dr.Clock
16-10-2009, 00:31
I think, Dhevan, that the lack of fleet on scorpions is absolutely intentional. If they had fleet AND Mover Through Cover, they would outpace Banshees.

I use scorpions in cover, and banshees sprinting from departing serpents. The two units have VERY different roles in my lists...

I like to think of the lack of fleet being due to a strange, low way of moving that the scorpions perfect as part of their Way. It allows them, at times, to move unseen from enemy eyes and flow through cover very rapidly, but their heavy armour slows them down in the open.

Outflank and fleet would be pretty crazy on these guys.

While I really like the existing eldar list, I understand the apparent desire to ramp up the skill of units in general in order to emphasize the 'elite' nature of the list that dates back to 2nd.

I think a massaging of exarch powers would probably be the fastest and most effective way of achieving that result.

This might be done by attaching the exarchs to the autarch in a way similar to both the seer council and current wolf-guard rules.

A Court of the Young King could be selected from amongst the temples that the autarch's weapons are drawn from. Equipment costs for the autarch are given premiums that and attached to the 'second level' unit upgrades that the Phoenix Lords grant currently through the disciples rule. In addition, one exarch in each of those temples gain an extra Wound.

Phoenix Lords get a points drop. One of my favourite things about Phoenix Lords is that they are kind of MEANT to get killed all the time. They are not 'individuals' like Yriel or Marneus that have limited lives. They are ancient suits of armour that serve as source and repository of the Paths of the Warrior. As long as you win the game, you can be sure that an exarch will be on his way to get possessed by the Phoenix.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Gwyidion
16-10-2009, 00:33
One option for fleet - models with Fleet always run up to 6".

Sildani
16-10-2009, 01:40
I dunno about that. A random Fleet roll adds some tension to the game that I like. Someone suggested 2d6 and pick the highest, which I think is a very elegant fix.

Rlyehable
16-10-2009, 04:32
What would I do if I were writing a new Eldar Codex?

1. Make all aspect armor 4+/4+i. This includes scorpions, dark reapers, and warp spiders. Shining Spears should have 3+/4+i.
2. All aspect warriors have fleet.
3. Add an aspect warrior that represents the use of warmachines. They would be an upgrade for vehicles (all models in a squad would have to take the upgrade). 1 exarch per army.
a. BS4 (BS5 for exarch)
b. WS4 (WS5 for exarch) for walker
c. Skillful rider/Move through cover ability for vehicles
d. Exarch power: Allows skimmers in unit to have up to S:6 weapons count as defensive weapons
e. Exarch power: Allows skimmers in unit to outflank or deepstrike
f. Exarch power: Close combat attacks count as power weapons.
4. Change Vyper to 2 wound T:6 Sv:3+ eldar jetbike. May be upgraded to be piloted by shining spear aspect (BS:4), if there is also a unit of shining spears. If piloted by shining spear, then may join shining spears unit.
5. Change Autarch to be a "leader exarch". Should allow refoll of 1 reserves roll per turn. Has exarch stats and powers. 3 wounds. Makes matching aspect troops. Dire Avenger aspect Autarch allows dire avengers to be taken in any slot. Shining Spear aspect allows Shining Spears and Jetbikes as troops.
6. Make exarch powers standard (not upgrades). Make all exarch powers effect the whole unit, not just the exarch.
7. Support platform:
a. Allow Conceal warlock power to give 5+ cover save to gun.
b. Extend range.
c. Have weaver to cause units under the template to "go to ground"
e. Allow up to 3 units (of up to 3) per HS slot
8. Swooping Hawks:
a. Change weapon to R:48" S:3 AP:5 Assault-2
b. Grenade pack: R:12" S:4 Assault-1, blast
Note: This will make a unique jump-troop unit (long range shooting)
9. Shuriken Catapults: 18"
10. Dire Avengers:
a. True-grit like ability
b. Change bladestorm to cannot assault on turn used, instead of cannot shoot next turn.
11. Farseer Wargear
a. Runes of Warding adds 1d6 to result of any psychic test
b. Runes of Witnessing extra d6 for psychic test, ignore largest die. Reduces Perils of the Warp to S:3 for the Farseer.
c. Witchblade: S:9 force weapon.
d. Singing Spear: Witchblade that can be thrown 12" (counts as power weapon, not force weapon if thrown).
12: Warp Spiders
a. Spinner: Change to S:6 AP:6 Template
b. Hit and run (I don't remember if they get this currently)

big squig
16-10-2009, 04:41
I don't know of any rumors but ok...

The autarch needs a boost. I don't know what, but he needs something.
The avatar needs a new mini.
The Farseer needs a couple new powers, but other than that he's perfect.

Fire dragons should be able to fire their fusion guns as flamers.
Harlequins need a boost.
Banshees ad scorpions and wraithguard are perfect.

Guardian catapults should be 18" just like dire avenger catapults.
Rangers should be BS5.
Jet bikes are perfect

Warwalkers should be fast attack.
Vipers should be a bit cheaper.
Warp spiders need new minis, better, more flexible movement, and a decent gun.
Swooping Hawks need a bit more punch. nothing major.

Fire Prisms should just be ordinance weapons.
Falcons, Wraithlords, Dark Reapers, and Wave Serpents are perfect.

The exarch powers should judt be in one list that all exarchs can pull from.

Cognitave
16-10-2009, 05:20
S4 would make a world of a difference on an Autarch.

Sildani
16-10-2009, 14:29
Give him a scorpion chainsword. Done.

Gee, did no one like my Star Eagle Aspect?

SideshowLucifer
16-10-2009, 16:21
I would still very much like the Phoenix Lords to be a unit upgrade for ther units and not take up a force organization slot. I'd also like al the exarch abilities confered to the unit they are with and costed appropreatly for that ability. I don't understand why the most advanced race can not put a freaking assault ramp on their Heavier Grav Tank. I think it would go miles towards helping them as a whole to be abe to field one or two.
I realy don't know what to do about the current running rules. I know it seemed to be takin away from teeldar, but I don't know if I would replace it or not. I'd actualy rather see an ability army wide that made the eldar move 8 instead of 6 I think.

Badger[Fr]
16-10-2009, 17:29
I like to think of the lack of fleet being due to a strange, low way of moving that the scorpions perfect as part of their Way. It allows them, at times, to move unseen from enemy eyes and flow through cover very rapidly, but their heavy armour slows them down in the open.
Indeed. That's why they get Move Through Cover, after all.



1. Make all aspect armor 4+/4+i. This includes scorpions, dark reapers, and warp spiders. Shining Spears should have 3+/4+i.
But why would they get an Invulnerable Save in the first place? There are no fluff nor gameplay issues that support such a change.


Makes matching aspect troops.
Scoring Aspects is a nice and balanced thing to have, but Troops? The current Eldar troop choices are varied enough as they are, even compared to other Codices (Space Marines and Space Wolves only have 3 or 4 Troop choices, after all).


3. Add an aspect warrior that represents the use of warmachines. They would be an upgrade for vehicles (all models in a squad would have to take the upgrade). 1 exarch per army.
a. BS4 (BS5 for exarch)
b. WS4 (WS5 for exarch) for walker
c. Skillful rider/Move through cover ability for vehicles
d. Exarch power: Allows skimmers in unit to have up to S:6 weapons count as defensive weapons
e. Exarch power: Allows skimmers in unit to outflank or deepstrike
f. Exarch power: Close combat attacks count as power weapons.
That's a nice idea, but considering most Eldar vehicles are either too fragile to justify a costly upgrade or already have BS 4 (the Falcon should be BS 4, by the way; BS 3 Walkers or Vypers make sense, but a Main Battle Tank should have the right targeting upgrades) / twin linked weapons, an Aspect Version is hardly needed. Though, an Exarch Special Character may come in handy. What about a Wraith tank that ignore Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken results, as an unique vehicle upgrade?



b. Change bladestorm to cannot assault on turn used, instead of cannot shoot next turn.
That would make Bladestorm even more of a no-brainer than it already is. DA are fine as they are. Though, giving them 2 CC weapons would be useful indeed, without throwing game balance down the drain.



a. Runes of Warding adds 1d6 to result of any psychic test
Isn't it how they work currently, anyway?


c. Witchblade: S:9 force weapon.
A Powerfist that strikes at initiative and inflicts Instant Death is clearly OOT, considering each and every Warlock in the army has one. The current Witchblade is hardly underpowered, but doesn't make sense in terms of background. A Master-Crafted Force Weapon that rolls 2D6 against armour would be far fluffier IMHO.



a. Spinner: Change to S:6 AP:6 Template
Sounds far too strong against horde armies, or even MEQ, in that regard. I know few units that could survive being hit by 8 S6 template in a single turn. Maybe units struck by a Warp Spider should count as being in difficult terain during the next movement phase, as the survivors struggle to free themselves from the deadly web.


b. Hit and run (I don't remember if they get this currently)
They do, it's an Exarch Power.



I would still very much like the Phoenix Lords to be a unit upgrade for ther units and not take up a force organization slot.
Considering the current design trend, I think the next Eldar Codex will indeed feature Phoenix Lords as an unit upgrade.


Falcons, Wraithlords, Dark Reapers, and Wave Serpents are perfect.
Dark Reapers are amongst the most overcosted models in 40k, and the prevalence of cover of 5th Edition negate their armour-ignoring abilities because they are not mobile enough. These guys should get Eldar Missile Launchers, and Relentless as an Exarch Power. Wave Serpents and Wraithlords are indeed fine, though. A better Wraithsword would be cool, and I like the 5+ Invulnerable save idea a lot.

Bunnahabhain
16-10-2009, 17:40
I don't understand why the most advanced race can not put a freaking assault ramp on their Heavier Grav Tank.

Because a fast skimmer tank that is very, very hard to stop, with good assualt troops, quite possibly farseer enhanced ones at that, that are able to assault from it would be game breaking, or stupidly expensive.

If they are cheap, then they're game breaking, and we get a return to 3rd ed Rhino rush, but this time terrains not stopping them.

If they are appropriately priced, then all the Eldar players complain they can't use all their tanks, as they're too expensive.

I suppose you could give them assault ramps, but give them awful armour and weapons, so they're not too expensive... People must be tired of complaining about how giving thin armour and poor weapons to Guardians makes no sense by now.

We have to strike a balance between game balance and background, otherwise we end up with movie marine rules

incarna
16-10-2009, 20:44
A couple more ideas:

All vehicles can upgrade their pilots to aspect warriors – which will give the vehicle BS4 and provide the same benefit that Spirit Stones do now.

All vehicles can purchase Spirit Stones which allow the vehicle to fire a second non-defensive weapon if it moves 12” or less.

incarna
16-10-2009, 20:54
Because a fast skimmer tank that is very, very hard to stop, with good assualt troops, quite possibly farseer enhanced ones at that, that are able to assault from it would be game breaking, or stupidly expensive.

If they are cheap, then they're game breaking, and we get a return to 3rd ed Rhino rush, but this time terrains not stopping them.

If they are appropriately priced, then all the Eldar players complain they can't use all their tanks, as they're too expensive.

I suppose you could give them assault ramps, but give them awful armour and weapons, so they're not too expensive... People must be tired of complaining about how giving thin armour and poor weapons to Guardians makes no sense by now.

We have to strike a balance between game balance and background, otherwise we end up with movie marine rules

I think I’d prefer to pay a bit more for my Wave Serpants provided they become assault vehicles - the way the current game dynamic works where Eldar players are caught in one of several positions with their assault vehicles just doesn’t seem right.

1. Move up with the front of your skimmer facing the enemy and hope that, in the following round, your move + fleet + assault will give you the assault.

2. Move up with the back of your skimmer facing the enemy and hope that the skimmer survives to deploy it’s cargo and your opponent isn’t in a position to move + run to block the exit point.

3. Move up and deploy your unit and hope that it survives to make it into assault on your next turn.

Bunnahabhain
16-10-2009, 21:33
Well, you could have something like:
Wave serpent ~110 pts depending on what weapons and BS it gets a standard.
Upgrade to assualt ramps + ~70 pts
They really are that valuable.

I just can't think of a good justification for why only some would wave serpents would be assualt capable, other than game balance...

Dr.Clock
16-10-2009, 22:02
Bunnahabhain pretty much spells this out for me...

It seems to me that the maneuverability and excellent protection that our current tanks provide is really sufficient.

Having to rely on units to work together and achieve objectives has ALSO been a traditional 'aspect' of the eldar way of war.

Being able to simply FLY your storm guardians/banshees/dragons/DA directly through 12" of heavy cover and into assault even after a destructor+flamers/bladestorm/melta-gunning would give you very little reason to have them supported/ing other mechanized units.

It would also detract from the need for eldar to think turns in advance and use timing to our advantage. For me, coordinating the movement and deployment of numerous transports is part of the fun and challenge of the list.

Remember that these aren't lightning fast raiding platforms (a la Dark Eldar), these are fully pressurized aircraft capable of operating from low orbit. Being able to pull off charges of up to 12" immediately upon setting down is way out of order... especially when you consider the toughness of these vehicles... way more than a raider or a trukk.

In sum, leave the assault vehicles to the Dark Eldar and the orks...

The falcon got horribly nerfed - even though I've found that dropping most of the upgrades I used to take and using serpents as cover gives you decent-priced units that can be used to hold reserves for DAVU and provide some limited harassment fire... I'd be willing to pay a premium to be able to up the BS and/or use more than one main weapon... on that note: pulse lasers should really be lances IMO.

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Ravenous
17-10-2009, 04:41
I'd like to see the re-roll difficult terrian for vehicles to re-appear, its getting frustrating as hell when I crash them into the sides of buildings....

Hellebore
17-10-2009, 07:58
I think I've just noticed a minor crisis here. What exactly do we want the Eldar to be?

Relatively few, elite models that are point-intensive? If so, I'm seeing quite a few people on this thread stating that Eldar are already expensive and seem to need cheapening. If an elite army is wanted, shouldn't we try to raise abilities of expensive units so that they reflect their current cost?

Or do the majority want cheaper Eldar to get more boots on the table? This needs to be resolved first. To each his or her own, but I'd rather fewer, elite Eldar, thus my Codex post awhile back.


Realitively small and definitely elite. In fact, similar in size to Tau armies, where battlesuits = aspect warriors and fire warriors = guardians.

Differentiating between guardians and aspects for example:

Guardian armour: 4+ save, When falling back roll 2D6 against sweeping advance and pick the highest.

Guardian squads can take up to two weapon platforms, or ccw pistol and two special weapons (including a star rifle).

Guardian squads have their own upgrade characters. When organising their units they need SOMEONE to do it, the Autarchs aren't going to be performing noncom duties.

With 4+ armour, they rely on Warlocks less. Warlocks can then be independent characters that can join any unit. It always struck me as stupid that you could never put a warlock in a banshee unit, but you could put a farseer in one. The warlocks even get their helmets out of the aspect shrines and have far more of a connection to them than a farseer.

Aspect armour: 3+. All aspects get it. Aspect warriors can regroup under 50%. Guardians can't - perhaps even the tactical withdrawl rule from the black guardian EOT list.

Exarchs are Stubborn and convey it to their unit.

Shuriken catapults are 18" range.
Dire avengers have a ccw and pistol.

Rangers are the only unit in the army with a 5+ save (mesh armour).

Farseers are more expensive (say 150 points) and come with at least two psychic powers as standard with the option to buy more. Either those powers that buff eldar units have an extended range, or they have the ability to affect two units, or an aura of 6". At the moment the space wolves can take rune priests with the ability to grant 5+ cover saves to EVERY unit within 6" and that's for 3+sv T4 space marines not 4+ sv T3 eldar.

The standard army leader would be an autarch, with less reliance on farseers.


These sorts of things would make the army work imo more like the background. Small but powerful forces with the mainstay aspect warriors backed up by the guardians. But the guardians wouldn't simply be meat shields, rather well armoured and armed militia used for a supporting role.

If one of the best tactics is a 20 man guardian squad strung out in front of the army to grant cover saves, then there is something seriously wrong. You should be rewarded for trying to avoid the deaths of your warriors, not by getting as many cheap cannon fodder into the army as you can...

Hellebore

Doomseer
17-10-2009, 12:39
@Hellebore, you make some great suggestions there.

Eldar really need their limited numbers and mobile/elite status to be represented better. Careful consideration of every single model is paramount.

There could be a way of having a Seer character that functions silmilarly to a Space Marine Apothecary. You could ignore casualties from shooting if he/she is within a certain distance as they recover Waystones from the fallen Eldar.

Hellebore
17-10-2009, 13:46
In the codex I wrote a few years ago I gave Warlocks an ability called Restore which gave their unit Feel no Pain (as at the time that was the standard 'apothecary' upgrade). However I don't think it's particularly appropriate for Warlocks as they are supposed to be martial psykers, not defensive ones.

I would go so far as to rejig psychic powers and give conceal to farseers and Executioner (psychic projection of warlock into combat) to warlocks. They are all without exception offensive battle psykers and should be treated like it.

I feel that both the Exarch and the Warlock have been getting the short end of the stick since 3rd edition, relegated to upgrade characters rather than the powerful independent characters they should be.

With some slight modifications to the army list you can both remove the overreliance on warlocks and also boost them at the same time. The same applies to Exarchs.

I was thinking of there being a triumvirate of councils available for Eldar HQ choices.

Seer Council - 0-1 Farseer and 0-6 Warlocks/bonesingers
Warlocks WS5 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv4+
Farseers WS5 BS5 S3 T4 W3 I4 A1 Ld10 Sv4+
Bonesinger WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I4 A1 Ld9 Sv3+

Strategic Council - 0-3 Autarchs
Autarchs WS5 BS5 S3 T3 W2 I5 A2 Ld10 Sv4+

Tactical Mastery: Each Autarch is a master of strategy and tactics, capable of directing eldar army elements in a breathtaking synergy.

Each Autarch can choose to call upon a Tactical asset every turn by passing a Ld test:

1: +1 to Reserve Rolls
2: One enemy squad suffers both difficult and dangerous terrain
3: One friendly squad may run twice
4: One friendly squad may shoot and run in the same shooting phase
etc. These all represent elements the Autarch had prepared for the battle to be released at the right time - air dropped tanglefoot grenades, reordering reserves, activating a unit's additional ammo etc.

And perhaps a synergy rule (idea suggested by Arakanis). They are supposed to be able to get the eldar units to work in harmony together, perhaps when a unit is fired at by one aspect unit and then assaulted by another, the assaulting unit counts as I10 for that round, or the enemy count the casualties caused by shooting in the combat.

War Council 0-3 Exarch Lords
WS6 BS6 S4 T4 W3 I7 A3 Ld10 Sv2+
Must be attached to a squad of their aspect (so you can't take these guys unless you've already got squads of their aspect in the army). Receive more individualised Exarch powers like those seen in 2nd ed.


Hellebore

Lord Of The Avatars
17-10-2009, 14:55
hellebore really excellent work i agree 1000% with your suggestions. I just cannot wait for the new codex! Long Live Helllebore! lol jokes

Oldguny
17-10-2009, 15:45
what?^^^^^^^^^^^

Calixtus
16-04-2010, 02:31
What is this power Tactical Withdrawal that is mentioned? Anyway I can get rules on that?

Rlyehable
16-04-2010, 03:16
What is this power Tactical Withdrawal that is mentioned? Anyway I can get rules on that?

Codex: Eye of Terror (2003), p. 46, under Ulthwe Strike Force.

Paraphrased:
A unit with this rule that falls back may not rally, even if over 50%. If it falls off the table while above 50% only counts half for victory conditions.

jesusjohn
16-04-2010, 17:10
Plastic wraith guard and a way to take them as troops and i'll start an Eldar army, promise.

LususNaturae
16-04-2010, 17:16
Plastic wraith guard and a way to take them as troops and i'll start an Eldar army, promise.

Well, you have one of the two already...

jesusjohn
16-04-2010, 17:21
Ah, but i'd like to mount them up and have them as troops..i'd also like my cake and eat it.

LususNaturae
16-04-2010, 17:36
lol, yea, You're asking for a bit much :p

jesusjohn
16-04-2010, 18:14
I think that also with the current codex's giving changes in force org with SC's, this could be added to the Eldar..however i would rather not have it as special characters, maybe Autarch/Farseer upgrades. The problem with this is that GW couldn't sell more metal. Now it would work well to get more Pheonix Lords sold/on the table and also some of the less popular ones, however i don't think that all Eldar players want to use them.

I like the idea of a more CC orientated Wraith Guard/Wraith Lord.

I like the suggestion of Vipers as 'Heavy bikes'

I think web way portals should be an interesting alternative to transports/Deep Strike and really play to the hard hitting fragile nature of the army.

One worry of course is that you will get 'Pheonix missiles, Pheonix Claws, Pheonix Swords' etc...

If Matt Ward writes Codex Eldar will an Avatar Punch out Dorn?

ajmetal
16-04-2010, 22:45
My wishlist for a new eldar codex

In basic design:

Id like for GW to not reduce the costs of eldar units, as having fewer models on the board than other armies is both fluffy and fits their style of play, instead...
Id like GW to make every overcosted unit in the codex actually worth its cost. change rules to fit the points values they already have.

Id like to see eldrads stats and rules converted into a standard HQ choice farseer, and eldrad removed as a special character and replaced with eldrad as a Farseer Wraithlord

Id like the standard farseer to be taken to an IC elites choice with a 1-3 limit per FOC. also limit the farseers wargear options and only allow them to take one power, for only their standard 55 point cost.

The idea of this is that, most units already in the codex require farseer rupport in order to be viable in 5th (in some cases back in 4th) but with the current limitations on farseer availability, and with the ease of including table wide psychic hoods in what like HALF the armies in the game? You cant stretch their powers far enough to make taking alot of these units worth it. with this change, you up the viability of units like howling banshees with doomseers, guided war walkers, fortuned meatshields/screening units etc. and the limitation of one power keeps these units from being standalone deathstars.

at least make deathspinners ap 6

give wraithlords an invul save.

either allow dark reapers the option of taking all EML's, or move them out of the heavy support section. currently they are not a heavy weapons team. a tactical squad makes a better heavy weapons team than they do, they're way more shooty elites than anything. also giving them the option for slow and purposeful would be immensely helpful, and also fits them way better into the eldar playstyle.

make footdar more viable. Id like to see Special deployment options like webway gates. not the old ulthwe strike force ones, Id like to see something like a hidden deployment rule that allows you to decide where the webway gates are before the battle starts by nominating terrain etc. then as your units arrive from reserve you start "revealing" the locations of your webways gates, as if they had already been there before the battle started. pretty fluffy imo. (also note Im talking about MULTIPLE gates!)

Id say making units more versatile would be cool, but its sorta against the standing eldar design. maybe if there were special rules for how different aspects could interact... cuz as it stands units liek full bladestorm avengers dont see much action cuz well, they cant kill vehicles, aaaand almost everyone is in one.

Id like an option to somehow change the FOC to allow aspect warriors as troops, with some limitations. like it can only be your two compulsory choices or something.

More exarch abilities that dont just apply special rules or passive effects. I LOVE the idea of actually using special abilities exarchs have to get more favorable effects in certain situations, and with limitations so you have to use them tactically. more bladestorm abilities essentially. (I know I just knocked on bladestorm, but its really fun when it is usable)

Those are a lot of my main ones...

Spell_of_Destruction
25-04-2010, 11:34
My guess is that we'll see a new Eldar codex sometime next year. The current model line needs very little updating - I reckon all we need is a new Avatar model, new jetbikes (apparently already done) and perhaps updates to a few of the older Aspect Warriors.

As for the list itself, it's still very strong but suffers in 5th ed because a large number of points must be invested in Troops which isn't exactly the hardest hitting element of the Eldar list. Eldar tend to do better in larger games as a result (I find that it's much easier to make a strong 2,000 points list than a strong 1,500 points list). All armies have to employ this focus on Troops but it is particularly harmful to Eldar because of their strength is in the combined arms of their Elite specialists. Most Eldar players in 5th ed spend many more points on Troops than they otherwise would and I think that some of the units should come down in cost to compensate for that.

Here's my take on what should be done with each unit:-

HQ

Avatar: Very effective for his points so I don't really have many genuine complaints but part of me still wishes he was more of a beast. I'd pay around 200 pts if he had S7 T7 A5. Another idea I've thought about is something along the lines of 'Essence of the Young King'. The fluff would be that the spirit of the most recent Young King is the most dominant and therefore the Aspect of Khaine to which the Young King belonged is emphasised. This would allow you to buy a single 'Aspect' upgrade for your Avatar. I haven't really developed the idea fully but I thought it might be interesting.

Farseer: Nothing much to be done here. Frankly I'd be happy enough to see the end of Farseers/Warlocks on Jetbikes if the rest of the list is brought up to par. I'd like to see Eldritch Storm receive a power boost.

Autarch: I'd like to see him become a bit cheaper with a stat reduction so that he's similar to a Dracon. I think there should be greater emphasis on his tactical abilities (they're supposed to be the greatest strategists in the galaxy) so for example he could confer an ability that lets you manipulate the dice roll for flanking reserves.

Warlocks: I'd like to see the reintroduction of 'Warlock Masters' as a mid level HQ choice (perhaps 1-3). They'd have similar stats to an exarch but with 2 wounds and would have access to two warlock powers. I'd like to see 'Executioner' return as a power - could be used in the assault phase to make an assault move. The Warlock returns to his original spot after he has made his attacks. Again, they could perhaps lost the Jetbikes.

High Exarchs: Let's keep the existing exarchs but also have a return to the exarchs of old. These are the exarchs who form part of the Craftworld's military council with the Farseers. They could be a 1-3 HQ choice. Stat line as follows: WS6 BS6 S3 T3 W2 I6 A3 Ld10. They would have access to all of the powers and weapons that a normal exarch has but they also get a 'Master Exarch Power' only available to High Exarchs. Maybe give them the option of an invulnerable save.

Troops

Guardians: These guys need a hand as they are a poor choice for their cost. Lowering the points cost is not desirable as any less than their current cost is moving into horde territory. I sincerely believe that 18" range would make a world of difference. Give them access to special weapons too. I'd like to see them have access to a redone star rifle with the following stats: range 18" S6 AP2. I'd also like to see them get a 4+ save but maybe that's stepping on DA's toes.

Dire Avengers: These guys are okay although I still feel that they need a transport to be fully effective. I'll come on the the Wave Serpent later. I've never been fully convinced by Bladestorm - I have to pay to gain half of my next turn's shooting this turn at the expense of next turn's shooting? If it doubles the current turn's shooting for next turn's shooting it would be a bit more appealling.

Jetbikes: Maybe bring these guys down to around 20 points? Otherwise fine.

Rangers: I never really use them but they seem okay to me.

Wave Serpent: I'd like to see the basic Wave Serpent come down in cost to 100pts with TL Shuriken Cannons and Spirit Stones. They're very good transports but are an absolute points sink if you go mechanised particularly in 1500pts or less games.

Elites

Striking Scorpions: I'd like to see these guys come down to 15 points. Other than that I think they're fine.

Howling Banshees: I'd like to see 'War Shout' replaced with a power that gives them Furious Charge (would make them formidable!) - perhaps that could be an option for the Banshee 'High Exarch'.

Fire Dragons: I'd like to see them get their 3+ save back. Given their battlefield role it would make a lot of sense and they had a 3+ save in 2nd ed (the list hasn't changed much since then) so there is a precedent. To balance they could go up to 18pts per model.

Wraithguard: Haven't used them since 2nd ed so can't really comment.

Fast Attack

War Spiders: I really like these guys and I think they have a role in the army but perhaps they're a little pricey. 20pts per model seems fair.

Swooping Hawks: A lot of people ask what can be done about Swooping Hawks. I actually think they have a worthwile role in the list (they're a harrasment unit) but they're simply far too expensive when you take into account the fact that they don't do much damage and are pretty fragile. If they were 16pts a pop I might give them a shot. I'd also like them to have a permanent 5+ cover save.

Shining Spears: Still maligned despite a massive boost in the last codex (shows just how atrocious they were before!). They're not bad but the problem is that they don't have the attacks to be a dedicated assault unit but they are too expensive to be a harrasment unit. I've had some joy in larger games using them in conjunction with other units but at 1,500pts there just isn't enough space to fit them in and give them a decent role. I'd keep them as they are and make them 30pts a model. That would allow you to buy 3 for under 100pts - could be very useful picking off small units of MEQs. Give them assault launchers too!

Vyper: The Vyper needs a boost of some sort as the defensive weapons rule has made it an expensive weapons platform with crappy BS. It could do with being a lot cheaper for a start. It might also help if Eldar are given a vehicle upgrade that allows for BS4 vehicles (return of the Crystal Targetting Matrix?).

Heavy Support

Wraithlord: Think they got the balance about right in the 4th ed book. Weapons costs possibly need a bit of work though (see below).

Falcon: Still hard as nails but role now seem to be restricted to transporting small units of Dire Avengers to objectives. As a start I'd allow the second turret weapon to always be fired as a defensive weapon. I'd also make the pule laser a 'lance' weapon.

Fire Prism: Excellent as it is.

Dark Reapers: Prevalence of cover saves has hit these guys hard. I'd bring back rules for their targetting systems which reduce the enemies' cover saves by 1. I'd also bring them down to 30pts a model to address the fact that low AP weapons are no longer as powerful as they were in 4th ed. I've always thought they were overcosted - priced like Devastators but without the weapon options and ablative wounds.

Weapons Platforms: I'm not sure what to do with these. The rules seem okay but they've got too much competition in the Heavy Support slot. Perhaps they could be taken out of Heavy Support and taken as an 'add-on' for Guardian squads (they won't form part of the Guardian squad but will use the same slot on the force org chart). They're also fragile for their existing cost.

General:

They Heavy Weapons balance could do with some work. The Starcannon is too expensive - it either needs to get its Heavy 3 back or go down to about the same cost as a Scatter Laser. Fears that a return to Heavy 3 would see a return to Starcannon Armies of Doom are unfounded - Guardians now have a min squad size of 10 as opposed to 5 in the 3rd ed codex. Furthermore long range AP2 weapons are no longer the game winner they were in previous editions with the current prevalence of cover saves.

GW seem convinced that the Brightlance is the greatest heavy weapon in the game. It isn't - it's only advantage is the lance rule. Most of the time I'd rather have a lascannon. It needs to come down by 10 points right across the board as Eldar currently have problems with reliable anti-tank. Yes we have Fire Dragons, Wraithguard and Fire Prisms but unlike other armies we don't have cheap squads with anti tank weapons, dedicated long range anti tank specialists or CC hordes with hidden power fists (*cough*Orks*cough).

There would be other changes but those are the ones I came up with off the top of my head.

Towelie
25-04-2010, 11:47
Considering the new prices of monsterous creatures from the Nids book we can expect to see a increase in the cost of the wraithlord. Apart from that all I really want is for the 'best psykers in the galaxy' label to be proven.

Spell_of_Destruction
25-04-2010, 12:00
Considering the new prices of monsterous creatures from the Nids book we can expect to see a increase in the cost of the wraithlord. Apart from that all I really want is for the 'best psykers in the galaxy' label to be proven.

I don't think it's necessarily a sign that the Wraithlord will be nerfed.

The Wraithlord wasn't quite 'nerfed' in the 4th ed codex but it was certainly toned down. We were given the impression that it was improved with the ability to take two heavy weapons and a wraithsword but the basic Wraithlord now is worse and more expensive than the Wraithlord from the 3rd ed codex.

I think the changes in the Nid book were possibly a reaction to the prevalence of the Nidzilla list. I don't find that Wraithlords are particularly common these days (they're not rare but in previous editions every army had at least two!) as there's more of a focus on mechanised Eldar. I don't hear too many complaints about the Wraithlord these days. Hidden powerfists ended their previous dominance.

As for Farseers - it has always been the way that their powers are more subtle. Eldar could use far more powerful psychic attacks but to do so would be akin to a man jumping into a Shark tank with bloody steaks tied to his limbs.

Their role is to augment the Eldar army, not to crush the enemy and I think they fulfill that role well.

Plebian
25-04-2010, 13:02
I would like the regular Farseers to be boosted to around Eldrads ability, with Junior Farseers becoming the current farseer. This will reinforce the "best psyker in the galaxy" fluff without 5 Eldrads running around a tournament. Also more offensive powers for warlocks, and let them join aspect squads. Things like S6 Ap 3 12" Shooting attacks, or ignoring saves in close combat would be fluffy and fun powers.

Sorros
25-04-2010, 14:29
^^Agreed with Plebian, stop making all these named chars who are supposed to be ridiculously powerful and then seem a hella lot weaker. Make Eldar psychers a LOT better. Increase their points cost if absolutely necessary, but seriously, they are THE masters of psychic powers in the universe.

Make Craftworlds come back, but not necessarily the old craftworld book itself. Few cheesy options in there...

Aspect warriors need a 3+ invul, especially fire dragons. They have an annoying tendency to kill themselves from the ensuing blast when they roast a vehicle...T3 getting hit by S3 isn't too bad of an odd. Allow Guardians to take 1 heavy support platform or heavy weapons platform for every 5 guardians, give them a 4+ save, and an 18"-24" rifle. They should be units that sit back and use heavy weapons to support their aspect warrior brethren, not suicidal militia wearing cardboard and rushing in a horde with shotguns.

Make Dire Avengers more well-rounded with a CCW+pistol. Reduce point costs on swooping hawks, shining spears, possibly reapers. Give reapers slow+purposeful, maybe move them to elites. Give Eldar the option to take more elite slots--Space Wolves get 4 HQs, why can't Eldar have more than 3 elites? Aspect warriors are common, elite fighters, if Dire Avengers can be a troop, why can't other aspects? Make all aspects stronger in general, but for more points.

Vypers become a 2-wound T5 eldar jetbike. Give falcons either BS4 or the ability to fire more than 1 weapon while moving, or possibly both. Prisms are fire, serpents are fine, maybe lower upgrade pts a little. Lower price on brightlances and starcannons, or make them better. Give Eldar more reliable long-range anti-tank, I noticed we have very little aside from brigtlances (not reliable, considering every platform aside from a wraithlord is only BS3, and generally on a weak unit. Wrathlords are also a heavy support slot, which Eldar have a content going on in), and fire prisms (which, while very good, can scatter, and are not a lance. I still like them, but thats only ONE real long-range anti tank.)

Buzz_Kill
25-04-2010, 20:49
I think it would be good to get a new edition of the Eldar Codex out there, GW May release a few new models into the codex that no-one may no about, and with the Eldar army, any model could be created in there range!

Max_Killfactor
26-04-2010, 02:02
I would like to see:

Phoenix Lords with invulnerable saves
Wraithlords with 3 attacks and/or wraithblade standard
All of the harlies back (mime, solitaire, great harlie)
Costs adjusted or abilities improved on some of the aspects (shining spears mainly)
Autarchs giving better weapon options
Plastic Wraithguard, with some CC weapon options

chaos0xomega
26-04-2010, 04:53
Something needs to be done to make the eldar more survivable as a whole (survivable, to me, is a seperate concept from fragile). Alternatively, there needs to be a point reduction across the board (in keeping in line with other recent releases...)