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Asymmetric
20-10-2009, 19:42
Well...think hard.;)

Is this going anwhere? Or do you have a valid criticism of the arguement that Guard have a large variety of competitve different mechanised lists.

Murphy's law
20-10-2009, 21:45
Is this going anwhere? Or do you have a valid criticism of the arguement that Guard have a large variety of competitve different mechanised lists.

You're Professor Guard, let's leave it that way.

Meriwether
21-10-2009, 01:49
It's ok, Asymmetric. *I* understand that you can understand what ML is saying, and yet still disagree with him.

Now will both of you quit this stupid quibbling so that we can get back to the fully on-topic stupid quibbling? ;)

Meri

PhalanxLord
21-10-2009, 03:59
I don't collect guard but I've faced them a couple of times with my nids. Their tanks are pretty annoying to crack, and thats considering that most guard armies I've faced had maybe 3-5. More than that would really suck as an army with little good anti-tank (and the CC anti-tank is very, very overrated).

As for platoon Chimeras looking at the codex I figured that a good idea would be to take some but mob up the units and give the chimeras to something else, like a heavy weapons squad or a special weapons squad. Sure the HWS would lose a turn of shooting... but now its firing its heavies out of the back of a chimera where they no longer fear S6+ weapons (until the chimera is destroyed). As for SWS, they can stack their flamers in a chimera to maximize their death and then you still have a nice 20+ unit of guard to use FR, SR on, though the strategy could easily be fouled up if you don't get to shoot first. Either way, the chimera seems like its guns alone are worth its cost. 3 S6 shots and 3 s5 shots for such low points? As a SW player I would love to trade in my rhinos for chimeras.

WLBjork
21-10-2009, 04:50
I've always considered Space Marines of all flavours undercosted since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Heavy changes to the core rules meant that Space Marines had effectively gained dramatically in survivability, so what happens? Everyone got their points chopped in half, then Guard got a point added ("they can field too many HWs" - so make the HWs more expensive, not the Guardsmen!).

This far down the line, and nothing much has changed. As basic troopers, point for point, Marines are still the best in the galaxy.

Meriwether
21-10-2009, 12:08
I've always considered Space Marines of all flavours undercosted since the beginning of 3rd edition.

When I wrote a review of the "new" 40K edition for InQuest Magazine back in the day, the thing I was most excited about was the new AP structure (as opposed to the save modifier structure used previously). What the new AP structure did was make power armor actually tough -- and it was designed to.

The buff to marines was intentional, as prior to that they were basically an unwinnable army in anything approaching competitive circles. As this was around the time of the birth of the GTs, Rick and Andy assured me, they deliberately wanted to see a power boost for power-armored models.

So I don't think it means that they were undercosted, but it's not like the rules change and marine buff was a mistake...

Meri

Bassik
21-10-2009, 12:16
I've always considered Space Marines of all flavours undercosted since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Heavy changes to the core rules meant that Space Marines had effectively gained dramatically in survivability, so what happens? Everyone got their points chopped in half, then Guard got a point added ("they can field too many HWs" - so make the HWs more expensive, not the Guardsmen!).

This far down the line, and nothing much has changed. As basic troopers, point for point, Marines are still the best in the galaxy.

That may be so, but that only makes it extra sweet when you blow them to tiny bits with your cannons:D

I love playing guard :D

Lord Solar Plexus
21-10-2009, 13:44
As basic troopers, point for point, Marines are still the best in the galaxy.

Perhaps. When however was the last time you had a basic trooper on basic trooper action, no powerswords, MC, Ini boost, PK Nob, plasma or other schmaaacking gun involved...?


When I wrote a review of the "new" 40K edition for InQuest Magazine back in the day

You are older than you appear on the interweb.

Meriwether
21-10-2009, 14:20
You are older than you appear on the interweb.

...um, thanks? (I have no idea how to take that... Am I young at heart, or like an obnoxious little kid? :D )

Meri

Ddraiglais
21-10-2009, 14:47
It has never been about troop X compared to troop Y. Most things in an army are costed with synergy in mind. Now the fact that IG can be almost as fast as Eldar (with valks) and as hard hitting as any army out there (points aside, the ability to field up to 18 ******* tanks and AFVs on top of that), means that having fairly worthless troops isn't that big of a deal. Let's not even touch on orders which make those worthless troops pretty deadly. This is the most powerful IG dex I can think of.

Badger[Fr]
21-10-2009, 15:00
Now the fact that IG can be almost as fast as Eldar (with valks)
A single fast Skimmer in the whole Codex hardly makes the IG as fast as the Eldar. If anything, the bulk of the army still consists of lumbering tanks, bog-standard troop transports, and foot-slogging infantrymen.

TheOneWithNoName
21-10-2009, 16:15
;4059034']A single fast Skimmer in the whole Codex hardly makes the IG as fast as the Eldar. If anything, the bulk of the army still consists of lumbering tanks, bog-standard troop transports, and foot-slogging infantrymen.

Don't let that get in the way of some good hyperbole.

fluffstalker
21-10-2009, 16:33
Don't let that get in the way of some good hyperbole.

Well said. Entertainment value from these IG is OP QQers brings me back to this thread over and over again. *munches popcorn*.

Ddraiglais
21-10-2009, 16:48
;4059034']A single fast Skimmer in the whole Codex hardly makes the IG as fast as the Eldar. If anything, the bulk of the army still consists of lumbering tanks, bog-standard troop transports, and foot-slogging infantrymen.

Depends on the build. You can take up to 9 valks/vend. If you use FW stuff, you can throw in some vultures. Taking that many aircraft will leave you with just enough points for transported troops and HQ. Al Rahim (sp) also speeds an army up considering they don't have to move across the entire table. So between the valks and Al Rahim, you don't have any foot-slogging infantry and probably don't have points left for any tanks.

Oh, and I did say almost, but don't let reading comprehension get in the way of your argument.

Badger[Fr]
21-10-2009, 17:34
You can take up to 9 valks/vend.
Indeed, but you will end up with what can only be called a parody of an Eldar mechanized army. Veterans are no match for mechanized Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers, Wave Serpents are much more durable than Valkyries, and eventually, your whole army depends on three Av 12 vehicle squadrons. The much-vaunted Air Cavalry IG army is a myth that hardly deserves the name of power list. The same goes for Al Rahem's build: it requires a considerable amount of list tailoring, at the expense of the rest of the army. These two builds are at best situational.

If anything, the previous Codex and its all infiltrating, all deep striking armies was far worse.

Juggalo
21-10-2009, 18:12
The codex is great and offers bloody good options and fantastic varity. But unfortunately that's not reflected on the tabletop in this part of the netherlands.

Netherlands?! That explains everything, your guard players are too high to deal with variety. :D

Ddraiglais
21-10-2009, 19:13
;4059479']Indeed, but you will end up with what can only be called a parody of an Eldar mechanized army. Veterans are no match for mechanized Fire Dragons and Dire Avengers, Wave Serpents are much more durable than Valkyries, and eventually, your whole army depends on three Av 12 vehicle squadrons. The much-vaunted Air Cavalry IG army is a myth that hardly deserves the name of power list. The same goes for Al Rahem's build: it requires a considerable amount of list tailoring, at the expense of the rest of the army. These two builds are at best situational.

If anything, the previous Codex and its all infiltrating, all deep striking armies was far worse.

I agree that it wouldn't be near as dangerous as an Eldar army. I just said that you could build an army almost as fast as the Eldar. Of course you could always do the GK ally thing and have fast moving termies (I think that's possible. I don't own the DH book, but I've seen the idea posted here).

ashc
21-10-2009, 19:17
I agree that it wouldn't be near as dangerous as an Eldar army. I just said that you could build an army almost as fast as the Eldar. Of course you could always do the GK ally thing and have fast moving termies (I think that's possible. I don't own the DH book, but I've seen the idea posted here).

That idea was stamped on in the FAQ, if i remember correctly?

Badger[Fr]
21-10-2009, 19:31
Indeed, it was.

Awilla the Hun
21-10-2009, 19:47
Lets recap, everyone: you can have theoretically 18 battle tanks. In practice, you won't in all bar Apocalypse (where they are practically worthless compared to Super Heavies), because they are expensive in points terms. In addition, this reduces the amount of scoring units available, and those tanks are squadroned up, and therefore more vulnerable to enemy fire. Space Marines have the ability to field sixty battle brothers in drop pods, raining doom and destruction on enemy lines, plus lots of assorted Veterans, Dreadnoughts, and suchlike. Tyranids are potentially capable of fielding cataclysmically huge numbers of gaunts, probably enough to sink the tabletop through the Earth's crust. Do they? Not that often.

Blizzinam
21-10-2009, 20:31
Great, now i want to whoop my local guard player AND buy enough gaunts to do that.

shin'keiro
21-10-2009, 21:42
Codex Creep passed over the IG?

Don't be silly.... ofcourse it wasn't

march10k
22-10-2009, 03:05
It didn't pass over the IG really. The army I field at 2000pts would be almost 600pts more under the previous codex, assuming that it had had vendettas and they were the same cost. I went from fielding 11 vehicles to fielding 15. :p



+1

Under the current IG codex, I can get four russes, two griffons, nine chimeras, six line squads with autocannons, and three command squads with dual meltas for 1750. That's pretty beastly. The griffons weren't available in the old dex and the rest of the list would have cost somewhere in the neighborhood of 2k without the griffons (so 2k versus the current 1.6k), and would have busted the force org chart, to boot. That's codex creep at its finest!

WLBjork
22-10-2009, 05:12
Perhaps. When however was the last time you had a basic trooper on basic trooper action, no powerswords, MC, Ini boost, PK Nob, plasma or other schmaaacking gun involved...?

Sunday 18th October 2009.

More or less - we didn't actually get past turn 2 :(

Opponent's Guard was 2 squads of Penal Troopers (1 Psychopaths,1 Knifefighters), 2 squads of Storm Troopers (1 Airborne, 1 Recon), 1 squad of 8 Ogryns and a Primaris Psyker. Total special weapons: 2 Grenade Launchers, 1 Melta Gunner and a Flamer.

My army consisted of a Wolf Guard Battle Leader, 10 Grey Hunters, 9 Grey Hunters in a Rhino with 2 melta guns, 10 Blood Claws in a Rhino, 5 Long Fangs with 4 Missile Launchers, 5 Wolf Scouts with Melta Bombs (what a waste - could've had another biker!), 3 Swifclaw Bikers and a Lone Wolf.


All told, I suffered 9 wounds and inflicted 15 (1.67:1) to 18* (2:1), despite playing too timidly which would probably have saved me at least 2 wounds, but probably would have saved my opponent the same (1.86:1 to 2.29:1).

*Can't actually remember how many Ogryns I killed, but they suffered the most wounds.

Adeptus Mechanicus
22-10-2009, 07:22
I don't know if I would call IG broken, but I play Orks and get my green ass handed to me everytime I play a mechanised guard. Why you say? Because IG are broken? No. Probably because Orks are horrible at handling armour, so horrible in fact that I would say they will struggle in 5th edition and its meq-trends. Just my observations and two cents, do with them as you see fit ladies and gents.

Zagdag
22-10-2009, 12:05
for my 2 cents:

guard have a tank, IIRC that is S6 AP 3 Ignore cover saves and Indirect Barrage. Thats a pretty good example of creep. Oh or the plasma cannon tank (exterminator?). Oh, or the russ getting to fire ordinace and normal weapons. So, yeah basically the tanks are awesomely broken now. (note that this may be a "I am Rock. Sizzors is ok. Nerf Paper" argument, but who cares, its just a forum).

I play guard btw, a tankless force with tons of infantry, ratlings, and orgryns. I won 1 of 9 games with the old dex. With the new i have won 5 of 6. love the new Orders.

And a final note to where this all started, Comparing SW to guard by points cost: This is a game about Space Marines as much as some of us (me) would like a bigger focus on other dudes. Guardsmen need to be weak to show that space marines are awesome, like, screaming Man-o-war athem awesome. so thats were we stand.

*two cents over

megamat008
22-10-2009, 12:32
Guard are amongst the Top 3 armies, maybe the best Mech army out there with the advent of their new Codex.

Off topic:
I don't know if I would call IG broken, but I play Orks and get my green ass handed to me everytime I play a mechanised guard. Why you say? Because IG are broken? No. Probably because Orks are horrible at handling armour, so horrible in fact that I would say they will struggle in 5th edition and its meq-trends. Just my observations and two cents, do with them as you see fit ladies and gents.
Try 30 or even 45 Lootas, and single Deffkoptaz with Buzzsaws which TurboScout and tear apart immobile vehicles on Turn 1.

Squadrons of Killa Kans with Rokkits protected by a KFF are also good anti armor and hard to get rid of.

SnakeWind
22-10-2009, 12:42
Netherlands?! That explains everything, your guard players are too high to deal with variety. :D

That joke has a beard the size of my joint :)

Malkov
22-10-2009, 14:27
I agree that it wouldn't be near as dangerous as an Eldar army. I just said that you could build an army almost as fast as the Eldar. Of course you could always do the GK ally thing and have fast moving termies (I think that's possible. I don't own the DH book, but I've seen the idea posted here).

Meh, have to settle for Chims there.

But, you could always put one group of PAGKs in each squadron. Mmmm Fast-Skimming + 48" range + Shrouding.

RCgothic
22-10-2009, 19:19
guard have a tank, IIRC that is S6 AP 3 Ignore cover saves and Indirect Barrage. Thats a pretty good example of creep. Oh or the plasma cannon tank (exterminator?). Oh, or the russ getting to fire ordinace and normal weapons. So, yeah basically the tanks are awesomely broken now.

And they pay for it by being either expensive or more expensive. An executioner is 40 points more than a standard russ for a cannon that is only really an improvement against terminators or monstrous creatures.

Variety, properly costed, is the spice of life.

Jayden63
22-10-2009, 20:37
Guard are amongst the Top 3 armies, maybe the best Mech army out there with the advent of their new Codex.

Off topic:
Try 30 or even 45 Lootas, and single Deffkoptaz with Buzzsaws which TurboScout and tear apart immobile vehicles on Turn 1.

Squadrons of Killa Kans with Rokkits protected by a KFF are also good anti armor and hard to get rid of.

So to beat any number of Guard builds the Orks have to bring 45 of one specific model. Some of us, don't play with Lootas because they don't fit our speed freek lists. Also what are Tau supposed to do against 12 or such vehicles. Take 9 broadsides?

Cognitave
22-10-2009, 20:44
Maybe you ought to ask the tactics forum that. :rolleyes:

Vaktathi
22-10-2009, 21:16
Also what are Tau supposed to do against 12 or such vehicles. Take 9 broadsides?
You don't need enough AT to kill every single tank on the table, you just need enough to keep the big elements quiet and the scoring units hamstrung. 3 railguns and deep striking crisis suits works wonders.

Bloodknight
23-10-2009, 01:00
guard have a tank, IIRC that is S6 AP 3 Ignore cover saves and Indirect Barrage. Thats a pretty good example of creep. Oh or the plasma cannon tank (exterminator?). Oh, or the russ getting to fire ordinace and normal weapons. So, yeah basically the tanks are awesomely broken now.

I haven't actually seen a Colossus on the table yet. Most people find it too expensive and inflexible to be worthwhile. And the Leman Russ Executioner is barely something new on the battlefield. Dark Eldar have been able to fire 3 Plasma Cannon shots from one Vehicle for ages. For the points of one tricked out Executioner you get 2 Ravagers that have one Plasma blast more, better BS, more speed (the Disintegrator can even switch to a defensive mode that is S4 AP3) and most importantly: offering 2 targets and being able to target 2 units. I am not saying the Executioner isn't awesome, but as both a DE and Guard player, it's not new at all.

Bunnahabhain
23-10-2009, 01:13
I've tried a Collussus, and was less than impressed.

There is a very neat synergy between the Artillery that makes sense to have close to the front, and the artillery that performs well at the front. ie Heavy mortars and MRLS. The rest should be hidden away in Epic, or behind the lines artillery. I am very glad of the option (finally) to have infantry called in fire missions.

PapaDoc
23-10-2009, 23:09
[QUOTE=Bloodknight;4063853]Executioner= 2 Delfdar tanxQUOTE]

Well the Executioner takes autocannon shots lika manly man and not a wimpy elf :]. Hurting AV14/13 across the table is not very easy unless you field 3 hammerheads or ask Jiggaboo Jones to roll your dice. This is a big problem, as most common guns with range 36 or higher have enough strength to actually hurt the ravager. To hurt AV14 you need Str 9 to bother.

You also need some close combat antitank weapons to actually hurt the exectioner in hth. Not so with the wet paper armour tank.

Guard is very good codex and in my personal opinion the most best one today. You can do many fluffy lists that doen't loose every battle, you can do fun lists that are balanced, or you various rock hard list.

The only real drawback is the huge cost for an IG army and the daunting task of painting everything up.

On topic:

Space Wolves are just marines on foot. They can do chaos"ish" mech lists but its still marine flavour.

Purge the Heretic
30-10-2009, 06:17
Been gone for awhile wanted to get in my answer to the WON conscripts have no use...take 50 of em, put em in a straight line 2" apart across the table at the furthest part of your deployment zone= instant cover save for your entire footslogging force

Squallish
30-10-2009, 09:20
And a 6" deployment zone for your opponent in DoW scenarios!

EmperorEternalXIX
07-11-2009, 16:07
Been away from the forum for about 4 weeks. Back now. Wow this thread is still alive.

I am amazed that anyone even gave this thought process the slightest justification. Just last night I was having a talk with my guard friend, about whether I should take a troops choice or powerful elites choice for CC usage in my new Wolves list. We were talking about volume of scoring units, and he said, "Well 4 is definitely better. I only have 4."

I said, "Don't you take a platoon?"

He said "Yeah. But I only use four troops slots." He proceeded to mention everything in his army that was scoring; 2x heavy weapons teams, a special weapons team in a vendetta, 3x squads of Veterans, his platoon command squad, and 4 squads of basic infantry, almost all of which was mounted in chimeras. That is 11 scoring units.

Yeah. Codex Creep sure passed this army over...