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Farsot
13-10-2009, 19:55
Also, to the "Weapons Team Whiners", I will continue to use my nerfed Ratling Guns the same way I continued to use my nerfed Fanatics, Gobbo Chariots, Ork Choppas and Looted Wagons...

So :p thpppppbt!



Ok, uhm, why shouldent you? I will too, but to not point out where GW actually do mess up is not very productive is it? Constructive criticism and it's for every ones enjoyment so the games development do progress in a as fair and balanced way possible.

And I gather you never did shoot into clan rat units befor then, good for you.

loveless
13-10-2009, 19:59
Constructive criticism

Eh...it's criticism, at least...not sure about the constructive part...


and it's for every ones enjoyment

Actually, it's getting old...remarkably old...like 2nd Generation Slann old.


so the games development do progress in a as fair and balanced way possible.


So...you're sending a copy of this thread to games development? Cuz I don't really think you can count on them to be reading this...:eyebrows:

The topic of Weapons Teams in 7th Edition Skaven: Too Horrible to Die.

decker_cky
13-10-2009, 19:59
BTW, something to consider a boost for weapons teams it the fact that for the first turn or two, you can hide them behind the large target bells and furnaces, meaning you can even hide them from units on hills. As the lines approach, move them to a shooting position and use the storm banner, then open up.

Ratling guns I'm not huge on, but WFT are now unit killers (and do flaming D3 wounds, good for many dangerous targets) and mortars seem great and can shoot out of LoS.

Farsot
13-10-2009, 20:09
Eh...it's criticism, at least...not sure about the constructive part....

How is it not constructive?


Actually, it's getting old...remarkably old...like 2nd Generation Slann old.

I agree, ppl really should stop calling it whining.


So...you're sending a copy of this thread to games development? Cuz I don't really think you can count on them to be reading this...:eyebrows:

Nope. Make the opinion resonate and spread, then mail the finer points, yes.


The topic of Weapons Teams in 7th Edition Skaven: Too Horrible to Die.

Yes I see, exaggeration is clearly beter and more mature and constructive then being critical and to the point about one of the oldest and most defining elements of the skaven army through the years of its existance and its place in the current rules.

macejase
13-10-2009, 20:09
If weapon teams are move-or-fire, what's to stop you from having them first positioned within 3'' of the unit but staying ahead of it. If this is a 5 deep unit of clanrats, you can then march a good 10" and still be within 3" of the weapons team, which is now a few inches behind your unit. Hey presto, the unit has moved, the weapon team hasn't, the gun can Fire!

Or did I miss something?

loveless
13-10-2009, 20:19
How is it not constructive?

Whining to people who have no power over the situation at hand tends not to produce results. It's not like if WarSeer has enough posts on "I don't like Ratling Guns" that the Ratling Gun is suddenly going to get different rules in the already-printed Army Books :p


Yes I see, exaggeration is clearly beter and more mature and constructive then being critical and to the point about one of the oldest and most defining elements of the skaven army through the years of its existance and its place in the current rules.

"Too Horrible to Die" means just that...the topic has no resolution, but people keep poking at it, never letting it "die". It's like the cut on the roof of your mouth that would heal if you could just stop tonguing it.

Complaining about it is practically pointless at this time - you won't see another Skaven update for a few years.

I also suggest trying a few games with it to see how it works. Something that's bad on paper is not necessarily bad in practice. (As a related note, something good on paper is not necessarily good in practice, either)

loveless
13-10-2009, 22:27
(living and ever changeing rulebooks would be the most optional but we all know that's far far away if even an ever for GW).


That's far from optimal for reasons that are irrelevant to this thread - this pops up in Other GW Discussion from time to time. If you would like to continue that train of thought, I'll be happy to follow you there :p



Weapon Teams is just one, currently relevant, example of where GW dropped the ball.

Except that weapon teams don't really have an analog elsewhere - they're a mix of Warmachine, Detachment, and Fanatic (mainly due to the potentially self-destructive nature of them). The thing they've done is make them easier to kill than before - armour and ward saves be damned. At least, that seems to be what I'm hearing. The complaints on changes are all moot, however, since the changes haven't been "player-tested" (note: different from playtested) sufficiently yet.


One thing that we do indeed have to play and see is the new (?) take on the warmachines and their "chariotesque" approach of one statline and haveing T6.

Actually, having thought back properly on this, isn't this how the Warp-Lightning Cannon is handled now? One statline? I don't have my book handy, but that seems very familiar.

Farsot
13-10-2009, 22:43
Except that weapon teams don't really have an analog elsewhere - they're a mix of Warmachine, Detachment, and Fanatic (mainly due to the potentially self-destructive nature of them). The thing they've done is make them easier to kill than before - armour and ward saves be damned. At least, that seems to be what I'm hearing. The complaints on changes are all moot, however, since the changes haven't been "player-tested" (note: different from playtested) sufficiently yet.

Leadbelchers, Flamers, Razor/Slamanders are they three closets to the WFT and RG. The PWM has atleast an indirect fire style rule, which makes movement less a factor, but still, coherency is the real question. The two melee teams well, that don't really matter, they don't shoot.


Actually, having thought back properly on this, isn't this how the Warp-Lightning Cannon is handled now? One statline? I don't have my book handy, but that seems very familiar.

It allways had to flee, it never engaged in close combat (could be shot though and such had a ward save, a force field, never where a fan of that). It'll be interesting.



Warptone Tokens

You may pass the normal limit of power dice that you may roll depending on your power level.

Ah! I was really wondering about that one. Thank you, thank you for the list.

Ward.
14-10-2009, 03:42
If weapon teams are move-or-fire, what's to stop you from having them first positioned within 3'' of the unit but staying ahead of it. If this is a 5 deep unit of clanrats, you can then march a good 10" and still be within 3" of the weapons team, which is now a few inches behind your unit. Hey presto, the unit has moved, the weapon team hasn't, the gun can Fire!

Or did I miss something?

Nothing will stop you from positioning it "3 inches ahead of your unit, it's just a bad idea.
The point was made that it still only takes 1 units shooting or one magic missile to kill a weapons team with the ward/armour save.
Move and shoot would have been a much better option, encouraging both the disposable/ sacrificial/ maniacal nature of skaven play and would have followed suit of bringing the ratling gun in line with similar units.



Except that weapon teams don't really have an analog elsewhere - they're a mix of Warmachine, Detachment, and Fanatic (mainly due to the potentially self-destructive nature of them). The thing they've done is make them easier to kill than before - armour and ward saves be damned. At least, that seems to be what I'm hearing. The complaints on changes are all moot, however, since the changes haven't been "player-tested" (note: different from playtested) sufficiently yet.


They're harder to kill then before, what they did is make the rattling gun worse then it already is.

loveless
14-10-2009, 04:43
They're harder to kill then before, what they did is make the rattling gun worse then it already is.

I was comparing editions as opposed to books - 6th to 7th. The 7th ed book didn't alter the targeting rules *shrugs*

Ward.
14-10-2009, 06:13
I was comparing editions as opposed to books - 6th to 7th. The 7th ed book didn't alter the targeting rules *shrugs*

Strange thing to do in a 7th edition army books thread :eyebrows:

The SkaerKrow
14-10-2009, 13:46
Cripes, guys. The book isn't even out yet. Can we at least pretend to have a legitimate cause for griping, or have we now ventured into the cloying morass of Speculative Whinehammer?

Malorian
14-10-2009, 15:05
...or have we now ventured into the cloying morass of Speculative Whinehammer?

Seems to be most peoples specialty around here...