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Revlid
15-10-2009, 18:10
Now, I know it's a bit early to talk about the next incarnation of the Daemon codex, what with it being one of the newer boys on the block, but it's always fun to discuss what we think should be in the next Codex. Whether themes you'd like to see explored, new special characters or units, or just basic rules tweaks.

Personally, I'd like to see:
* Greater integration with the 40k universe. That means more Daemon Engines in the actual list. Blight Drones and Bloodslaughterers from Forge World are a good start, as well as a Slaaneshi and a Tzeentchian counterpart - Changeflame Engines and Ecstatic Shriekers, maybe?

* I'd like to see Chariots changed from glorified bikes into actual vehicles, with AV values. Any models could reflect this - a Khornate Chariot is a hollowed-out Leman Russ, its crew staked to the armour, tugged by two Juggernauts, while a Tau Pirahna is fused with a Screamer to make a Tzeentchian Chariot.

* A Forge of Souls special character would be very cool. A Daemon Prince Dark Adeptus, perhaps, or The Obliterator King?

* I'd like to see Cultists added to the list as a very cheap Troops choice. Total fodder, maybe with magic shooting or poison or whatever depending on the icon they carry. They are deployed like a normal unit, and can either act as a Teleport Homer (with their Icon) from the start, or the unit can be 'possessed' (treat as killed) in order to bring down any chosen Troops unit without having to roll for it.

* To go along with this you could have a Cult Magus, who can be taken as multiple HQ slots like a Herald, grants bonuses to Cultists, can be 'possessed' by HQs, and is generally rather more formidable.

* Completing the "Cult Tagalong Trio" you'd have the Chaos Spawn as a slotless Fast Attack choice. Probably rather cheaper and slightly weaker than the Chaos Marine version, to properly distinguish them from Beasts of Nurgle.

Ozendorph
15-10-2009, 18:23
Cool ideas, but I'd rather see Cultists done as a separate list. Keep the Daemon list pure, if such a term could apply.

Latro_
15-10-2009, 18:24
A bit early!

come back in 10 years / ever. heh.

Nices ideas though

zeep
15-10-2009, 18:40
As each demon is lost, the ties that bind them to this plane go weaker.

Thus

Phase out.

Mojaco
15-10-2009, 18:43
A bit early!

come back in 10 years / ever. heh.

Nices ideas though
+1. Nice list, but incredible premature. 6th or 7th edition will be out by then.

TimLeeson
15-10-2009, 18:48
* More Doom influence would be good, more cyborg daemon stuff, undivided daemons, Forge of souls stuff.

* More techno-lovecraftian beasts

* less generic daemons in general

* get rid of the current lord of change and replace it with something thats not so laughable and cliche.

* More variety of units for mono-god lists, make mono-god lists more viable.

Hopefully in 12 years time when their updated, some of this sort of stuff will be implimented :D

Tonberry
15-10-2009, 18:49
I'd like them to give up on the big chaos cuddle fest and make the gods hate each other again.

jsullivanlaw
15-10-2009, 19:06
I'd like them to give up on the big chaos cuddle fest and make the gods hate each other again.

Nope, i hope the cuddlefest is here to stay. I just don't see the chaos gods hating each other more than they hate everything else.

Dark Primus
15-10-2009, 19:08
More cannon fodder daemons that seems to roam in between the four Chaos gods realm we see pictures and mentions of in the background but no stats for.

Shipmonkey
15-10-2009, 19:12
while a Tau Manta is fused with a Screamer to make a Tzeentchian Chariot..

You are aware of the fact a Tau Manta is a couple of feet across? Not the best chariot idea.


* I'd like to see Cultists added to the list as a very cheap Troops choice. Total fodder, maybe with magic shooting or poison or whatever depending on the icon they carry. They are deployed like a normal unit, and can either act as a Teleport Homer (with their Icon) from the start, or the unit can be 'possessed' (treat as killed) in order to bring down any chosen Troops unit without having to roll for it.

* To go along with this you could have a Cult Magus, who can be taken as multiple HQ slots like a Herald, grants bonuses to Cultists, can be 'possessed' by HQs, and is generally rather more formidable..

Cultist do not truly fit the army theme. The Chaos Daemon army isn't a cultist army releasing Daemons on it foes. If it was, they'ld get the watered down Chaos marine version of the Daemons. This codex is about a fullscale Daemonic assualt. This about what happens when the walls of reality break and the Warp in all it's splendor gets unleased into the material world.



* Completing the "Cult Tagalong Trio" you'd have the Chaos Spawn as a slotless Fast Attack choice. Probably rather cheaper and slightly weaker than the Chaos Marine version, to properly distinguish them from Beasts of Nurgle.

No, Spawn aren't Daemons so they have no place in the army. They're just plain noormal Chaos infused mutants. Besides the current codex gives you the abilty to make them on the field with Boon of Mutation.

druchii
15-10-2009, 19:13
Now, I know it's a bit early to talk about the next incarnation of the Daemon codex, what with it being one of the newer boys on the block, but it's always fun to discuss what we think should be in the next Codex. Whether themes you'd like to see explored, new special characters or units, or just basic rules tweaks.

Personally, I'd like to see:
* Greater integration with the 40k universe. That means more Daemon Engines in the actual list. Blight Drones and Bloodslaughterers from Forge World are a good start, as well as a Slaaneshi and a Tzeentchian counterpart - Changeflame Engines and Ecstatic Shriekers, maybe?

* I'd like to see Chariots changed from glorified bikes into actual vehicles, with AV values. Any models could reflect this - a Khornate Chariot is a hollowed-out Leman Russ, its crew staked to the armour, tugged by two Juggernauts, while a Tau Manta is fused with a Screamer to make a Tzeentchian Chariot.

* A Forge of Souls special character would be very cool. A Daemon Prince Dark Adeptus, perhaps, or The Obliterator King?

* I'd like to see Cultists added to the list as a very cheap Troops choice. Total fodder, maybe with magic shooting or poison or whatever depending on the icon they carry. They are deployed like a normal unit, and can either act as a Teleport Homer (with their Icon) from the start, or the unit can be 'possessed' (treat as killed) in order to bring down any chosen Troops unit without having to roll for it.

* To go along with this you could have a Cult Magus, who can be taken as multiple HQ slots like a Herald, grants bonuses to Cultists, can be 'possessed' by HQs, and is generally rather more formidable.

* Completing the "Cult Tagalong Trio" you'd have the Chaos Spawn as a slotless Fast Attack choice. Probably rather cheaper and slightly weaker than the Chaos Marine version, to properly distinguish them from Beasts of Nurgle.

You've got interesting ideas. Unfortunately most of them completely bone the way the demons would play and their general feel (which I don't think needs to be changed).

More demons are always good, but at the moment the book is really packed with units that cover all the angles of the game very well. There are already redundant units that are overlooked for, not necessarily more useful but more mainstream choices, do we want to add more?

Few things:
Re-price demon princes. They're such cool models, and I think every demon army should feature atleast one, but as it stands Soul Grinders are stupidly better for what you pay.

Make beasts of nurgle not suck.

Re-do furies. I'd like to see more "mechanical" demons (c'mon, Doom anyone?) so you could even have the "undivided" demons get rolled into the whole mechanical Soul Forge style demons. That'd be cool.

I would also like to see an undivided herald/GD. Springboarding off the above mech-demon ideas they'd function, even without a patron god because of the power invested inthem by other demons.

Oh and I think making heralds vehicles would be an absolutely awful idea. At the moment chariots are fine! Nothing really needs to be changed about them at all, and giving them AV would feel very out of place.


* More Doom influence would be good, more cyborg daemon stuff, undivided daemons, Forge of souls stuff.

* More techno-lovecraftian beasts

* less generic daemons in general

* get rid of the current lord of change and replace it with something thats not so laughable and cliche.

* More variety of units for mono-god lists, make mono-god lists more viable.

Hopefully in 12 years time when their updated, some of this sort of stuff will be implimented :D

Mono-god lists don't need to be more viable. They're perfectly fine as they are. Nothing's stopping anyone from doing some "counts as" stuff (in fact there's a TON of great stuff right here on warseer). The gods should still have their roles, and stick to them relatively well.

Mozzamanx
15-10-2009, 19:14
I'd definitely like more Daemons for each God, whatever form that may take. Someone on here had the great idea of 'Banelings'- Khorne daemons who kill people through hilarious accidents. One or two species per God would be fantastic.

Durath
15-10-2009, 19:15
I wouldn't worry about pre-mature discussion on "next codex" threads. Seems to be the trend lately. (I'm waiting to see the "Next IG Codex" discussion).

Here's what I'd change about Codex: Daemons -

Several changes to the "Daemonic Assault" rules:
- Removal of the die roll for the "two groups" portion of the Daemonic Assault rule (i.e. you get to pick which "half" shows up on turn 1).

- A special rule for the army which prevents deepstrike mishaps on your turn 1force.

Note: Yes, I play Daemons, so yes, I am biased about the Deep Strike requirement for the army. Mostly because it has turned out to be such a handicap. To be honest, I'd prefer that Daemons could either Deep Strike and assault the turn they arrive, or Deep Strike with no scatter all the time. However I realize people would whine and cry and say either of those suggestions are over-powered, so, the suggestion above is my compromise. Because the current setup is just plain stupid and makes the army uncompetative and rely way too much on dice rolls due to multiple downsides to "Daemonic Assault".

- Some more reliable Anti-Tank shooting options. Daemons have ONE unit that can punch AV14 somewhat reliably with shooting attacks (Soulgrinder with Tongue attack upgrade... and even then it's one shot at only BS3). They have a few close combat anti-tank options, but if you are trying to bring down Land Raiders, chances are you are going to need a 6 to hit, which makes CC options very unreliable.

- Some actual Chariot models from GW.

- A re-look at the points costs for some units (Like Beasts of Nurgle... 35 points... for a slow and purposeful close combat unit, which is INT-2 WS3, doesn't get an Icon option, and has a random number of attacks? Yes, they have T5, and Feel no pain, but what good does that do you if your opponent ignores them because they moved 10 inches the entire game?)

Shipmonkey
15-10-2009, 19:20
I'd definitely like more Daemons for each God, whatever form that may take. Someone on here had the great idea of 'Banelings'- Khorne daemons who kill people through hilarious accidents. One or two species per God would be fantastic.

That Baneling idea in near identical to the Gravelings from tv show Dead Like Me.


I'd like them to give up on the big chaos cuddle fest and make the gods hate each other again.

The cuddlefest is more interesting. Besides if they really hated each other why have the banded together before in the old fluff? Remember them trying to give Horus the keys to the kingdom?

Dark Primus
15-10-2009, 19:43
I think Tzeentch Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes should have access to more powers to choose from. Maybe a list of more greater powers then just booring shooting powers. An upgrade that boost up all Tzeenthch aligned Daemons with +1 BS if they stay within 12" from the GD or DP.

I think they should be given more powers that allows them to boost the entire army one way or the other.

Another one could be that you can nominate one Daemon unit in your army a +2 cover save.

It doesn't has to be just shooty powers. But I also think they do need better shooty weapons then what they have.

Corrode
15-10-2009, 19:54
Daemons need better shooting powers than Breath of Awesome? Really?

I do like the idea for 'Forge of Souls' undivided Daemons. Furies always seemed kinda tacked on to me, and having a cyberpunk mech-daemon slant would be interesting juxtaposed with the very Judeo-Christian 'traditional' Daemons of the 4 Gods. It would also mean lots of lovely new sculpts to support the book ;)

RampagingRavener
15-10-2009, 20:08
I think the biggest thing I'd like to see added to the Daemons codex is, simply, more options. Mostly in terms of Gifts/Wargear; as it is, most Greater Daemons, Heralds, and Daemon Princes are almost exactly the same as each other. And it's not as if this would be particularly hard to do; the Fantasy army book has a big list of Gifts, Weapons, and abilities, some of which I think could easily be replicated in 40k. The Daemon Prince entry, for example, looks like it's really variable. But since you can only access a quarter of that list of upgrades based on whatever Mark you have, really, there isn't a whole lot of versatility.

General recosting/rebalancing of some units, the Elite ones especially, is of course taken for granted. Something needs to be done to make Furies useful, Screamers could do with having a secondary ability so they're not wasted if the opponent has no tanks. Flesh Hounds and Beasts of Nurgle also seem a bit aimless, with no real role that isn't filled by other units.

More Daemon Engines would be a good idea, though I think just cribbing the Forge World ones wouldn't work. The Bloodslaughterer for example is pretty damn big, and probably wouldn't add much to the list that isn't already covered by the Soulgrinder. But squadrons of smaller, AV10/11 ones, to pad out the barren Fast Attack and Heavy Support options, would be ideal. It'd be especially interesting if they weren't all assault units as well. Plague Catapults for Nurgle, floating Tzeentchian obelisks, all sorts of things.

As far as fluff goes, I don't really think it needs to be changed much. Anyone who's actually read it properly will know that the idea of the Chaos Gods liking one another is, always has been, and always will be, nothing less than utter codswallop. But the fact that the Chaos Gods are now intelligent and willing to temporarily work alongside each other, as well as individual Daemons having their own agendas, actually makes them seem like a credible threat instead of a bunch of squabbling children.


Daemons need better shooting powers than Breath of Awesome? Really?

Yup. Breath doesn't have a hope in hell of damaging a vehicle. For trying to deal with heavier vehicles, especially ones fast enough to keep away from Princes and Greater Daemons, a Daemon army generally only has a few Bolts of Tzeentch or Soulgrinder Tongue/Phlegm shots - and that's if they're lucky.

Sceleris82
15-10-2009, 20:13
Drop the chariots, its a stupid concept. Instead give me some cyborg demons.

Corrode
15-10-2009, 20:39
Yup. Breath doesn't have a hope in hell of damaging a vehicle. For trying to deal with heavier vehicles, especially ones fast enough to keep away from Princes and Greater Daemons, a Daemon army generally only has a few Bolts of Tzeentch or Soulgrinder Tongue/Phlegm shots - and that's if they're lucky.

I wouldn't say 'hope in hell' - it might not blow up a tank very easily, but 4+ always glancing beats the hell out of the Ork list for example. I can see where you're coming from though - given the nature of Daemons it might not hurt for there to be a Tzeentchian unit at least which has a melta weapon of some kind. Maybe make it a Gift, call it Stream of Change or Warpmelt or something.


Drop the chariots, its a stupid concept. Instead give me some cyborg demons.

Chariots stay because of the crossover to Fantasy - remember that Daemons essentially exist so that GW can have an extra army in each system which requires little or no work to update for both simultaneously. That doesn't mean cyborg daemons can't appear, though.

DuskRaider
15-10-2009, 21:26
I actually really like the Chaos Daemons codex (believe it or not, it's written by the same guys who did the CSM 'dex... 180 right there!), and I really don't think much has to change. Mainly just the official inclusion of the Blight Drone, Blood Slaughterer, and Plague Hulk (maybe other god equivalents to match the PH, too). Other then that, I think it does it's job quite well.

veteransergeant
15-10-2009, 21:56
Soul Forge/Undivided Daemons? yes please

Update BoN... please (yes I run mono-Nurgle)

Give me Nurgle's Rot!

make the game not be like this: if I don't roll well in the first turn I'm going to lose.
It would actually be in GW interests to update this. Making it a competitive army will increase sales.

Sceleris82
15-10-2009, 22:12
Its just silly to have chariots in a 40universe. Instead create a giant scarab demon hybrid killing machine to function as a warmachine. Besides the soulgrinder the demon codex feels like a fantasy army, which i find silly.

Revlid
15-10-2009, 23:42
The Bloodslaughterer's not that big - it's about the size of a Dreadnought. I'd recommend for it to be an Elites choice, personally.

A new idea I've had is sort of a revival of an old one from the older Chaos books - retinues. Heralds can take retinues of elite versions of their god's Troop choice. For example, a Herald of Khorne would take a retinue of Bloodletters that are equipped with brass armour that gives them a 4+ Armour Saves, while a Herald of Tzeentch might get Horrors more sorcerously accomplished, resulting in +1BS. Call them "Favoured Horrors/Daemonettes/Bloodletters/Plaguebearers".
A Herald's retinue could accompany him on his Chariot, but would of course cost more and have lower max unit-sizes than regular units of their breed.


Its just silly to have chariots in a 40universe. Instead create a giant scarab demon hybrid killing machine to function as a warmachine. Besides the soulgrinder the demon codex feels like a fantasy army, which i find silly.

That's what I'm saying, though - Chariot can just be a poetic term for a daemon transport, they don't even need to be pulled by anything. It's not as though GW has Chariot models, anyway. Just give the 'chariots' vehicle stats, with attacks, and make them more mechanical so they'll fit.

A Khorne Chariot is a hollowed-out Chimera, with a Juggernaut head set on either side of the front, between the tracks, snapping at the enemies ahead of them. On top, standing before a metal-and-bone throne hammered from the remains of the chasis and its crew, is the Herald, gesturing with his burning sword while his retinue growl and leer behind him.
A Tzeentch Chariot is a Tau Pirahna, its jet-engines warped into actual wings, its crew long gone, a single eye twitching on its hull between two Screamer-like tusks, while Horrors caper along the newly-railed sides and the Herald hurls warpfire from his seat in the cockpit.
A Slaanesh Chariot is an Eldar Vyper, heavily modified with gold chain, filigreed platfroms and leering faces. The Herald luxuriates on a sofa where proud gunners once stood, while her retinue fans hir and beckon to the mortals they pass.

KHORNE CHARIOT (badly done example)

AV
WS BS S Ft Sd Bk I A
5 - 5 13/12/12 3 4

Daemon Engine: This vehicle ignores all Vehicle Damage results of "Crew Stunned" or "Crew Shaken".

Chariot of Chaos: Chariots of Chaos are dedicated, open-topped transports that may only ever transport the Herald they were bought for (and his retinue).
Despite not being a walker, Chariots have a statline for Combat. They may choose to Assault enemy units rather than Tank Shocking them (though they may do this as well!).
When rolling to hit against a Chariot in combat, the enemy must always use the most difficult To Hit roll required. For example, if it was stationary last turn, use the Chariot's Weapon Skill to determine the required To Hit roll. However, if it moved at cruising speed last turn, then the enemy would require a 6 to hit it.

Dexter099
16-10-2009, 00:23
The current 40k demons codex is fine, but the demon codex in Fantasy is painful to my eyes.

primarch16
16-10-2009, 00:29
If you don't like chariots in 40k then model them as daemon engines, tis what I did :D

Sceleris82
16-10-2009, 14:50
yeah you could do that, but that doesnt make chariots in the rulebook a better idea.
Stuff like the bloodslaguthere should be in the next demon codex.

gwarsh41
16-10-2009, 15:24
Cool ideas, but I'd rather see Cultists done as a separate list. Keep the Daemon list pure, if such a term could apply.

I somewhat agree, however I think cultists should go to chaos marines instead. In all the lore I have read, I never read of cultists warping in with daemons. I dont really think daemons need a fodder choice.

One thing I would absolutely love to see is some sort of model for everything. Daemons dont get played, so they dont get much models. My local shop wont order them because no one plays, it makes me very sad.


Its just silly to have chariots in a 40universe. Instead create a giant scarab demon hybrid killing machine to function as a warmachine. Besides the soulgrinder the demon codex feels like a fantasy army, which i find silly.

wow, I love that idea! Now have a perfect Idea for a skulltaker on chariot! I just need to create a nasty looking mini soul grinder of sorts. I think I may need some necron parts for this.
first though, destroyer body with tyranid scythe legs.. Ill work on that. or set him on a tomb spider with green stuff gib.

Sceleris82
16-10-2009, 16:48
That actully sounds awsome

Sureshot05
16-10-2009, 16:55
Personally, I would like a generic daemon option, something to allow modelers to go wild and represent the other thousands of things in the warp. And of course, a few more daemon engines would be great, but I think as the list stands it is in great form.

Though I do like the cultist idea and would suggest that such a choice was made available to both csm and daemons as that would double the sales and could also fit in the background for both lists (who hasn't heard of cultists summoning daemons?).

gwarsh41
16-10-2009, 17:12
That actully sounds awsome

I decided to do a quick little photoshop. Not much done here, but basic Idea. legs are too dinky and it needs a lot of chaos bits. fun to throw together though! I think If I saw one coming at me like that, I would laugh quite a bit.

Back on topic, I would love to see more 40k specific stuff. Meaning, as many people have said, mecho daemons. I am thinking on the same theory of space hulks. They are chunks of ships that have all gathered in the warp. (i think)
But mechano daemons might be better suited for CSM. I just dont think thier stuff is daemonic enough.

gorgon
16-10-2009, 18:10
IMO, CSM should get the option for Traitor IG/Cultists. Mutants are another story, though.

I'd like to see more of a Daemonworld codex, with options for Mutants and more Daemon engines. Daemonworlds are supposed to populated with huge numbers of mutants. The basic idea would be to allow two gameplay approaches -- one with purely daemons operating more or less as they do now, and the other being a more conventional army including Mutants and more support as represented by the Daemon engines. Throw in some rules in the back for fighting on Daemonworlds, and you'd have a helluva codex.

Dark Primus
16-10-2009, 23:13
I would not mind seeing the Bloodslaughterer along with the Plauge Hulk in a new Daemon codex. Don't know if squads should be an option for them.

gwarsh41
19-10-2009, 14:35
has anyone ever considered a soul grinder variant for the other two gods?

primarch16
19-10-2009, 16:35
The soul grinders are undivided rules wise, they cant be given marks. Though it would be fun if we could, Khorne +1 attack, Slaanesh +1 init, Nurgle... armour 14 walkers over powered :P? And Tzeentch constant cover save. Sorted, some marks more powerfull than others but hey if its costed correctly why not?

I would really like to see an undivided unit troops choice, we have a fast attack thats overpriced and garbage (furies).

Malkov
19-10-2009, 20:11
I'm making a Slaneesh varient with 4 arms...

Not done with the sheet yet but Dreadnaught Rending is going to be one of its special rules. (DCCW causes D hit on roll of 6 to-hit)

twistinthunder
19-10-2009, 20:19
+1. Nice list, but incredible premature. 6th or 7th edition will be out by then.

you dont know that

i dont know that

nobody knows if thats true.

stop talking like you know everything cause if they come out next year your going to look like an idiot.

loveless
19-10-2009, 20:32
stop talking like you know everything cause if they come out next year your going to look like an idiot.

Yeah, because people are going to remember his hyperbole come next year :rolleyes:

-----

Cultists and mutants should stay out of the Daemon book - if it stays Codex: Chaos Daemons.

Now, if they change it Codex: Daemonworld or Codex: Armies of Immaterium or Codex: Chaotica or whatever, then they could chuck in a bunch of random daemons, cultists, and mutants.

However, I get the feeling they want to keep it all as something that can have an army-wide special rule. As such, everything's likely to be daemonic. More Daemon Engines, Chariots made into some versions of Fast Vehicle and slipped into Elite/Fast Attack (depending on the alignment), maybe add some alterations on the basic Daemons - who knows? Plenty of stuff that could be explored - if GW was so inclined.

One thing that would be interesting is to have an Undivided HQ. Introducing a 5th Greater Daemon could be all kinds of fun.

gwarsh41
20-10-2009, 19:42
The soul grinders are undivided rules wise, they cant be given marks. Though it would be fun if we could, Khorne +1 attack, Slaanesh +1 init, Nurgle... armour 14 walkers over powered :P? And Tzeentch constant cover save. Sorted, some marks more powerfull than others but hey if its costed correctly why not?

I would really like to see an undivided unit troops choice, we have a fast attack thats overpriced and garbage (furies).

well, there is already a nurgle soul grinder. It was sold at gamesday and will be on sale soon. It isnt armor 14, but does get a cover save.