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Ddraiglais
15-10-2009, 19:04
I know there are probably a million of these threads. I apologise if I bore anyone. :)

I am looking at starting into fantasy probably in 2010. Before I ask my questions, I'll fill you all in on where I'm coming from. I started wargaming with Risk waaay back when. I moved on to the MB games (Empire, Shogun, Fortress America, and A&A). When I was in the Navy, a few of my buddies started playing A&A a lot. We got all the extra rules and miniatures and played all the time. Then one day one of my friends brought a couple of boxes of Space Marines on board (1994ish). From that point on we were spending entire paychecks on 40K miniatures. I eventually got everyone into Epic Space Marine/Titanicus. I was always interested in Fantasy though. I prefer fantasy over sci-fi as far as books and movies go. I played Warmaster for a while since that's what the people at the local store were playing. After moving again, I played LotR for a while since that's what was popular here.

Out of all those games, I'm mostly into 40K. I play Iron Warriors, traitor guard, and Legio Mortis. I lean towards large games that take a day or two to play (three on holiday weekends :D).

I tend to powergame within any fluff constraints that there might be. In other words, I build the most powerful armies I can, but stick to fluff (my IW would never have a lash prince since there isn't any fluff supporting a relationship with Slaanesh, but I have no problem fielding tons of obliterators; for those of you who know 40K).

This past week I was looking at terrain and stumbled across a site that had some amazing Chaos and Dark Elf terrain. It started me thinking about starting Fantasy again.

I will need your help choosing an army. I know a little bit about the fluff. I know a little bit about the units (very little). I am mostly going off of looks, and what little background I know. Here's what I'm considering:

Strongly considering:

Warriors of Chaos:
1-I like the way they look.
2-The mammoth is awesome.
3-I like smaller elite armies.
4-Already have ideas for a Chaos fortress.
5-I know of great alternative minis.
6-Could possibly use bits from 40K that I already have.

Dark Elves:
1-I like the way they look.
2-I know of great alternative minis.
3-Have ideas for a DE fortress.
4-Could possibly use bits from 40K.

Estalia (using Empire rules)
1-Cool looking minis.
2-An excuse to build a navy.
3-Fairly unique.

Kislev
1-Great minis
2-My favorite historical archetype is steppe raiders.

Other armies I haven't ruled out are:1-Tomb Kings
2-Ogre Kingdoms
3-Beasts of Chaos
4-Araby

Armies that I would never consider:
1-Skaven
2-Dwarves
3-Wood Elves
4-Bretonnia

Thanks in advance for any help/suggestions.

mrtn
15-10-2009, 20:09
The Mammoth isn't available for casual play for WoC, it's more a display piece.
Kislev doesn't have a current armybook, and I think all the minis are OOP.
For Estalia you'd have to use historical minis.

Ddraiglais
15-10-2009, 21:20
Well we use a lot of FW/Armorcast/Epicast stuff in 40K, so I don't see the mammoth as being a problem with the people I game with. Besides, I still like the WoC minis other than the mammoth.

Yeah, that's one huge downside of Kislev. I'd have to Ebay the whole army. I don't know if I have the patience to wait for the pieces I want to come up on auction. There are some historicals that might work though.

There are the lost legion minis that I could try to find on Ebay. There are also other minis that I've found that would work for Estalia.


Maybe I should be a little more clear on my questions. What I'm looking for is a forgiving beginners army. I've been told that Tomb Kings are tough to get use to. If there's any truth to that, then I'll scrap that idea. I have never played WFB before. I am looking for something that isn't to complicated for my first army. The list above is mostly what I like the looks of and the little bit of fluff that I know. I don't even have the rulebook yet, so I'm really in the dark here. I'm in the just starting to plan phase. I want to decide on an army so I can grab a deal here and there if I find one. I'd also like to start painting so that by the time I take the plunge, I'm ready to play.

mrtn
15-10-2009, 21:54
Warriors of Chaos isn't that hard to play. You have some of the best soldiers in the game, so if you can just charge the other bloke then you're off to a good start.
Neither Dark Elves or Empire is described as particularly hard to play with, but dark elves are higher in the power ranking.

I'd just start the coolest army. ;)

Ultimate Life Form
15-10-2009, 21:59
Tomb Kings must be the army with the steepest learning curve because of the 10.000 special rules that basically override the entire standard rules and the unforgivingness; make one little mistake and the enemy will smash your weak undead warriors to bits. They're entirely dependent on a successful magic phase to get their charges off and if you cannot master this magic (and trust me, as a beginner you can't), then you're screwed.

Where are Lizardmen?:(
As usual, I try my best to brainwash new players into faithful servants of the Old Ones. In my opinion, they perfectly fit the 'look totally awesome' bill and they're an elite army as well.

selone
15-10-2009, 22:33
For kislev look to non GW made minatures. Foundry minatures does for instance- http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/POLES/2/1.asp (winged lancers) amongst others (their polish collection might suit you)
I'd go for estalia (empire) or dark elves if I was you as both act in all phases (unlike woc who don't do shooting) and are fairly forgiving in that they can have cheap infantry. As much as I love kislev they really don't have a proper army list.

Condottiere
15-10-2009, 22:49
I may have missed it, but there doesn't seem much mention of magic, so that might not actually be a consideration for you.

If you happen to prefer to move your army quickly over terrain, Dark Elves are probably the ones for you. If you want to slog it out in close combat, WoC might be more to your taste.

Estalia and Kislev present some hindernesses, as they are not ranges currently supported.

selone
15-10-2009, 23:05
But you're a DoW player Condottiere you must have suggestions aplenty of alternative ranges :)

Condottiere
16-10-2009, 00:12
They involve other companies, and since my current location doesn't permit me easy access to examine them, any comments from me rise to the level of pure speculation.

While I do proxy, I prefer doing it with GW models since it's the scale that tends to throw me off. I like models that fit in with the rest.

On the other hand, there's the optimistic rumour that the proposed Ye Olde ForgeWorld will produce DoW and Kislev figures down the road.

At least Kislev did have some models and does have a PDF floating around; Estalia remains the domain for Fandexes.

Ddraiglais
16-10-2009, 00:24
Thanks for all the input so far guys. I had heard that abotu Tomb Kings. I guess I'll stay away from them until I get experienced at the game. So it sounds like WoC or DE would be the choices I'm left with (sorry Ultimate Life Form. LM are cool. but they just aren't my thing).

The big reason why I haven't really mentioned magic, is that I really don't know anything about it. When I started 40K psychic powers were a huge part of the game. Sadly, since 2nd, psychic powers are more in the background of the game. There use to be a psychic phase. Now psychic powers are part of the shooting phase (usually). There isn't much magic in LotR and none in the Milton Bradley games. I will eventually learn how magic works. I'd be interested in any advice on magic though. I think the biggest reason why I didn't mention it, is that I just didn't think about it.

Like I said before, Kislev would more than likely be a slow build as I waited for miniatures to go on sale on Ebay and other second hand stores. Estalia wouldn't be that big of a deal. I've found a bunch of minis with morion style helms. They have arquebusiers (handgunners), musketeers (handgunners), halbediers, and pikemen (spearmen). If I could find some Pirazzo's Lost Legion, I could have crossbowmen. I guess any knights would fit decently for knights. With a few conversions, I can have swordsmen, great swords, cannoneers, etc. As far as rules, I'd just use the Empire codex.

Dexter099
16-10-2009, 00:36
If you're looking into starting in 2010, then Beasts of Chaos are coming out February or March.

Warriors are newer than Dark Elves, and have the strengths of a combat army, and have three categories of troops that make up their armies:

1) Warriors
2) Marauders
3) Monsters

There are plenty of other wacky options (warshrines and Hellcannons) as well as demon princes. they have good magic and a little shooting like Hellcannons, throwing axes, and demonic breath to back them up.

Dark Elves on the other hand are a most powerful army book, and more people play them. Their units are fairly fragile, but hurt when they hit. They also have some shooting to complement their forces. Their magic is good as well.

selone
16-10-2009, 01:01
They involve other companies, and since my current location doesn't permit me easy access to examine them, any comments from me rise to the level of pure speculation.

While I do proxy, I prefer doing it with GW models since it's the scale that tends to throw me off. I like models that fit in with the rest.

On the other hand, there's the optimistic rumour that the proposed Ye Olde ForgeWorld will produce DoW and Kislev figures down the road.

At least Kislev did have some models and does have a PDF floating around; Estalia remains the domain for Fandexes.

foundry does a fairly good range of DoW though I'd be interested in any competitors.

outbreak
16-10-2009, 01:16
I find tomb kings to be the funnest army i've tryed. Their not that hard to master if you are used to games involving tactics and read up alot on strategies that work. You also need to be able to plan out what spells you actually want cast and what spells will be bluffs to draw out dispell dice early.

CommissarKlink
16-10-2009, 06:36
Have your cake and eat it too: build a chaos warrior army that is largely composed of corrupted Kislevites. Tada!

Brother Loki
16-10-2009, 10:47
If you like Chaos and Dark Elves, and you mostly play with your own friends, rather than in tournaments or whatever, you could consider doing something with the Cult of Slaanesh list from the Storm of Chaos campaign sourcebook. It's a little out of date as the various parent lists have been updated since publication so you might need to do some adaptation (much like the Lost and the Damned list in the Eye of Terror book for 40k) but it's a mix of Dark Elves, Chaos mortals and daemons.

Shrapnelsmile
16-10-2009, 13:07
If you like Chaos and Dark Elves, and you mostly play with your own friends, rather than in tournaments or whatever, you could consider doing something with the Cult of Slaanesh list from the Storm of Chaos campaign sourcebook. It's a little out of date as the various parent lists have been updated since publication so you might need to do some adaptation (much like the Lost and the Damned list in the Eye of Terror book for 40k) but it's a mix of Dark Elves, Chaos mortals and daemons.

It's a shame they didn't keep that list intact -- I play cult of Slaanesh in the Warmaster 10mm system from GW.
But I'd proceed with caution on that one -- you may come across a group, or eventually want to play in a light tournament, and find it unwelcomed at best.
That might be something to branch into later, with the right group of friends.

Ddraiglais
16-10-2009, 15:10
Thanks for all the help guys. I think I'm down to WoC and DE. I like the idea of fielding both, but I've never been a big fan of Slaanesh. If I had to choose out of Chaos, I think it'd be Khorne or maybe Tzeentch.

The deal breaker for me will probably be how many specials and/or rares you can field in a game. I think it's dependent on points, but I have no idea how many. I like the DE specials better than the WoC (cold ones from Gamezone are the deal breaker here), but I like the WoC regular troops better than DE. Rare choices are probably a push since I like the DE ones better until you throw in the mammoth. the lords slot is probably a push too.

My choice doesn't matter too much though. I will probably eventually do both. After that, I don't know how much I'll branch out. Are beasts and daemons still available as allies for WoC?

Speaking of Gamezone, does anyone have any experience with these minis? If they aren't close to scale with GW, then that would definately swing me towards WoC.

Ultimate Life Form
16-10-2009, 15:16
In a normal size game (2000-3000 pts) you will be able to field 4 Special choices, which actually eats so many points that there's usually not much left to get other stuff, especially with elite armies. Only very rarely do I fill all my Special/Rare slots (of which you will have 2, again for 2000-3000pts game.)

Core, you can field as many as you want, but at least 3 (for our example game). I don't know much about Warriors of Chaos, but since they're elitist, this alone will eat a big chunk of your points. Dark Elves can be a tad cheaper here.

Lords can be fielded from 2000 pts and up (1 Lord for every 1000 pts from there)

artyboy
17-10-2009, 05:08
Dark elves are probably the most versatile army in Warhammer. They have a lot of dirty tricks that can throw opponents for a loop. There are a lot of different builds that work extremely well. There's no "cookie cutter" list that most armies eventually evolve to. They can dominate the shooting phase against just about anyone. They have good magic but they're also one of the only armies that can completely ignore it. They have units that hit extremely hard in combat. They're a great army and I'd recommend them to anyone whether they're a beginner or an old player.

Tekomandor
17-10-2009, 10:03
Dark Elves (and High Elves) are some of the best "Starter" armys cause they are good at everything (Good combat, good shooting, good magic) they are just fragile, so my advice is to play Dark Elves first so your skills improve, then play WoC so you don't get used to the crutch of high armor saves.

Ddraiglais
18-10-2009, 05:50
I had narrowed my choice down to WoC and DE. I was leaning towards DE. Now I'm pretty convinced that's the army I'll probably start with. I have one more question, but this is more about aesthetics. If I had some cold ones that were of a thicker build than the GW cold ones, which option would be best? I figure I can:

1-Use the bigger bodied ones for champions.
2-Mix and match the two.
3-Have seperate units for the two different kinds of cold ones.

I know I said I had one more question, but I lied. I would really like to field a chariot for DE, but I don't think that's an option. I've seen some conversions on here that look really nice. I also like a chariot that a third party produces. Is there anyway to legally do this, or should I just forget about it?

Einholt
18-10-2009, 05:59
You can do anything you like. I think with the thicker Cold ones you should do two different units rather then mix.

Feel free to do as you like with the chariot convert, buy GW, buy elsewhere but in GW stores they will only let you play with either Theirs or one converted with their parts and random stuff as long as it is not from another company, say Gamezone Cold ones to pull it.

Ddraiglais
18-10-2009, 06:50
There aren't any GW stores near me. Even if there were, I doubt I would go. I know I can make/buy a chariot. I was actually thinking about the Gamezone one. I wanted your opinions about using one. I didn't see an option for using one on the GW site. I was wondering if there was a WD article or rules in the codex for one.

Most of my gaming is done at my house or at friends' houses. Nobody I know really cares about what miniatures you use. Although I don't know anyone that plays fantasy right now.

I was also thinking about the GZ cold ones when I asked about the thicker cold ones. I do think that you are right, and that they wouldn't look too good mixed. I do think that using them for champions/characters might work though.

Right now I'm a long way off from actually fielding an army. I just want to get my research done so that I end up with an army I like and will stick to. I appreciate all the help and advice so far.

wilsongrahams
18-10-2009, 20:05
Hi, just wanted to mention that I was in a similar position to yourself now a few months back. I had the previous ed rule book and so knew the basics, had a few armies built up but never really played yet. I then bought the new box for the rules and am currently preparing for my first proper full rules game.

I have noticed a lot about magic, and until i'm master at it am not using my vampire counts for reasons mentioned above. I'd recommend you steer clear at first too.

I am currently using my High Elves which despite having a few special rules, are nothing to far from the norm and so easy to learn with. My other army is warriors of chaos, and despite being a small force so far, it is small for it's points, but powerful, and very simple to play with, but there is a lot of opportunity to expand with magic and chaos marks etc so are an ideal choice to develop as you learn the rules and buy new units, but are perfectly playable with just basic units and still being competitive.

My only wish now is that i didn't have all those bloody dwarves in the game, as they don't interest me either! The goblins will be the start of a fourth army I think. I like to have a variety of forces so I can use whatever I will need to master a certain part of the rules. Eg, when magic is learnt and I can concentrate on perfecting it I will play vamps a lot more.

Brother Loki
19-10-2009, 15:39
The 6th edition army book certainly had a cold one chariot entry. I don't know if its in the current one.