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View Full Version : Is 40k about to evolve?



brightblade
15-10-2009, 21:23
After reading the threads about exarchs and the eldar codex (amongst others) I have noticed that players seem to be asking for the ability to customise the way their armies play. Now, this has always been the case. We all want to have our own armies, personalised the way we like them.

However, given the tactical variation and downright fun that can be had from the order system in the IG codex are we about to see a switch to a game where the player can change the way his units act from turn to turn?

Will Tyrannids have a synapse system? A greater faith system for sisters? A computation system for Necrons? Greater Farseer buffering? and so on... different ways for all to buff squads on a turn by turn basis based on circumstance,fluff and playability?

Not really interested in your thoughts on rules specifically just how you all think the game will play given the revolutionary(for 40k)way the orders system works. Or do you think it has really made no difference? Around here it has changed the attitude people have to playing and guard especially really 'feel' like guard now.

Whaddya reckon?

Durath
15-10-2009, 21:54
I don't see this happening in either Codex: Space Marines or Codex: Space Wolves as standard issue rules.

Yes, both have special characters which can alter morale tests or special rules on the fly (Marneus's God of War, Logan's High King), but these are unique abilities, and not everyone will be using these characters all the time (in fact, they are sorta cost prohibitive for small tourneys.).

Yeah, there is possibility of this happening in C:WH, or maybe Nids, but I doubt Necrons will get such a rule, nor Eldar.

Don't confuse wishlisting on Warseer as a modus operandi for GW.

brightblade
15-10-2009, 22:24
Don't confuse wishlisting on Warseer as a modus operandi for GW.

Ha ha. No fear on that one. Just seemed to be something a little .... deliberate?

One of the major complaints of 40k is that it is a rock/ paper/ scissor system with each army having something that trumps others and vice versa to maintain balance. Just thought maybe that might be changing a little, as if a layer of subtlety was building that was more than just heading for powergaming. Maybe not deliberate but certainly seredipitous.

Warpcrafter
15-10-2009, 22:46
Ha ha. No fear on that one. Just seemed to be something a little .... deliberate?

One of the major complaints of 40k is that it is a rock/ paper/ scissor system with each army having something that trumps others and vice versa to maintain balance. Just thought maybe that might be changing a little, as if a layer of subtlety was building that was more than just heading for powergaming. Maybe not deliberate but certainly seredipitous.

There would have to be balance before they would spare a thought for maintaining it. However, the greater options available in the last few codexes is encouraging. I can't wait to see what they do for the Tyranids. Perhaps, one day, they might actually fix the Chaos Space Marines. (Ducks to avoid hurricane of noob posts "I like the vanilla spiky marines")

Bonzai
16-10-2009, 00:21
I wouldn't mind seeing an alternative rule system for various armies.... So long as it was released in a one big book for everything.

For example;

Space Marines
Blood Ravens: Their Librarians can take Command Squads.
White Scars: Space Marine Bike Squads can count as a Troop Choice.

Necrons
Servents of the Outsider: Models with the "Necron" rule are now fearless.
Servants of the Void Dragon: Tomb Spyders and Scarabs count towards phase out.
Servants of the Nightbringer: Wraiths and Flayed Ones get furious charge.
Servants of the Deceiver: Can have more than one unit of Pariahs.

Tau
Kroot Mercenaries

Chaos
::Insert legion specific rules::

Etc...

There would be a section for each race/army, not including the various space marine spin off chapters (SW, BT, BA, DA). Each variant rule would get it's own page, with descriptive fluff.

the neckbone
16-10-2009, 00:27
(Ducks to avoid hurricane of noob posts "I like the vanilla spiky marines")

I like the vanilla spiky marines :)

no wait...

sorry i mean i think the chaos codex is s**t
sorry i always get "like" and s**t mixed up

Warpcrafter
16-10-2009, 04:20
I like the vanilla spiky marines :)

no wait...

sorry i mean i think the chaos codex is s**t
sorry i always get "like" and s**t mixed up

Haha! And that's why my poor plague marines continue to gather dust...

CrownAxe
16-10-2009, 04:33
I wouldn't mind seeing an alternative rule system for various armies.... So long as it was released in a one big book for everything.

For example;

Space Marines
Blood Ravens: Their Librarians can take Command Squads.
White Scars: Space Marine Bike Squads can count as a Troop Choice.

Necrons
Servents of the Outsider: Models with the "Necron" rule are now fearless.
Servants of the Void Dragon: Tomb Spyders and Scarabs count towards phase out.
Servants of the Nightbringer: Wraiths and Flayed Ones get furious charge.
Servants of the Deceiver: Can have more than one unit of Pariahs.

Tau
Kroot Mercenaries

Chaos
::Insert legion specific rules::

Etc...

There would be a section for each race/army, not including the various space marine spin off chapters (SW, BT, BA, DA). Each variant rule would get it's own page, with descriptive fluff.

That's no different from how CODEXS work

505
16-10-2009, 05:55
I want troop choice bikes...oh wait I got them :D

silashand
16-10-2009, 06:00
Just seemed to be something a little .... deliberate?

I think that's giving GW a little too much credit in the planning dept... :)

Juggalo
16-10-2009, 06:49
You are overstating the "tactical variety" offered by Orders. Really, they are just slight buffs, not really different than having army-wide Counter Attack and Acute Senses.

Bunnahabhain
16-10-2009, 09:24
You are overstating the "tactical variety" offered by Orders. Really, they are just slight buffs, not really different than having army-wide Counter Attack and Acute Senses.

Exactly.

They make Guardsmen somewhat more reliable at doing one of several things, so you can reasonably try and do stuff with only 2 units, not 3.
The things that do give the IG real tactical variety as compared the last codex are: squadrons, reasonable access to SANELY PRICED transports, joined up squads, and special rules attached to assorted officers -a whole platoon outflanking? 20 -30 man units with power weapons and furious charge?
Those are things that you really couldn't do before.


40K has been evolving, but that's not always a good thing.
It is very easy to go up evolutionary dead ends, and so you end up up with the game-play equivalent of an appendix, nipples on men, (or creationists)
which do nothing useful, and some of which occasionally tries to kill you for no good reason.

40K wants intelligent design, so it does everything it is supposed to, in an easy and obvious fashion, without all the bad bodges inherited from previous editions.

* NB. Please do not derail this thread with political/religious discussion.

Fenrir
16-10-2009, 09:26
Dunno about 40K evolving, but threads have a tendency to devolve.

brightblade
16-10-2009, 21:07
I think that's giving GW a little too much credit in the planning dept... :)

Why? It seems that lots of people like to mock GW and give the writers no credit whatsoever.

My attitude is a little more positive. There is a definite shift in thinking and 40k imo has never been better. :)

Fenrir, care to elaborate? Not sure of your point.

loveless
16-10-2009, 21:13
If 40K is evolving, someone should start slamming the B button.

...yeah, I went there.


No, rampant wishlisting (occasionally from well-spoken individuals) is not a sign of things to come. 40K will remain the "same" for a bit - Apocalypse will continue to spurt out large models, new books will be released with new plastics, and always - always - the vocal Internet minority will whine about how Space Marines exist.

brightblade
16-10-2009, 21:31
I wasn't really talking about the wishlisting on forums. Was musing that the direction the majority of this wishlisting is going may be caused by the change in codex style we have seen of late.

The change did appear deliberate and an attempt to get armies to play more in a way that suits their background. Arguably the ig codex is the progenitor with the wolf codex next up. Hence a suspected evolution in the game. I will be very interested to see the Tyrannid codex.

Chin, chin.:)

Ixe
16-10-2009, 22:27
I don't think we're going to see a huge expansion of the "orders" phenomenon. If anything, 40k has been moving steadily away from customization. In 4th ed, both Marines and Guard could pick and choose special rules to radically alter their lists. And Chaos could choose from a list of special legions as long as your arm, all with different tweaks to their force org charts or the way their units behave. Now, the only way to play a special Marine chapter is to include a special character, or hope they release a single-chapter book for your army (and Chaos don't even get the army-changing special characters, really).

I think the ultimate customization of 4th ed was ultimately destructive, because there's no way they can fully playtest an army that comes with 1000's of different wargear and special rule combos. It leads to unforeseen lists that are no fun to play against and tend to dominate editions. I like the more circumscribed choices because it means that each one can be thoroughly evaluated for game balance.

IG went with an "orders" system, I think, to preserve the character of the army. IG has always been lead by command squads, but throughout their history these command squads have been mostly useless, and a huge liability. They had two options to fix command squads: make them untargettable somehow (but still useless) or keep them as a liability, but a liability that does something significant. They chose the latter, and it was the better choice. But the only reason they went that way is because they wanted to preserve the unique way that IG is structured. For armies without such a wacky kind of structure, it's not going to happen like that. I think that for most armies, the primary customization will continue to come from adding a special character that adds army-wide rules, or adds rules to units within a certain bubble.

For Sisters of Battle, I definitely hope that we don't see major changes to Faith. Faith is just about where it needs to be. It does not need to be expanded, because expanding it would require a price hike for Sisters. With their vastly inferior statline they are just 5 points cheaper than Marines as it stands. Even an increase of a point or two would make the basic Sister of Battle look like a bad bargain compared to a Space Marine. Faith would have to become truly insane to justify a price hike of more than a point or so, and the potential for it becoming broken under those circumstances is too great for me. I have no desire for my main army, which I have loved since 3rd edition, before it had a real codex, to become the new straw man that everyone claims is the cheesiest list in the game. I'm currently quite happy with my innocuous-seeming list that surprises everyone with its extreme brutality ;)

Finnith
17-10-2009, 00:36
Haha! And that's why my poor plague marines continue to gather dust...

Nerf Hoovers! Givf mop!

Axis
17-10-2009, 02:34
If 40K is evolving, someone should start slamming the B button.

...yeah, I went there.


No, rampant wishlisting (occasionally from well-spoken individuals) is not a sign of things to come. 40K will remain the "same" for a bit - Apocalypse will continue to spurt out large models, new books will be released with new plastics, and always - always - the vocal Internet minority will whine about how Space Marines exist.

Lol. I am sort of ashamed i got that and found it funny.



I don't think there is a trend in the way the OP is suggesting. I think they are trying (succesfully or not) to make the rules for each army fit their style. Hence orders and the versatility of space marines. I think they cocked it up a bit on chaos (some armies can be done really cool in the new dex but some people got gimped). So i don't expect something like orders for nids but i do expect they'll try make synapse something more interesting.

brightblade
17-10-2009, 18:13
I didn't necessarily believe it myself, it was just a thought I'd put forward to see what reaction it would provoke.

I do, however, agree there is a real attempt to have armies 'feel' different. I was just hypothesising as to whether it was a part of a grand scheme :p

But it would appear nobody believes that GW has a long term plan. Oh well, that is top of my wishlist, I guess lol :D

Ixe
17-10-2009, 19:32
What I'd like to see 40k evolve into is a game with a lot of different armies with their own book. We need Chaos Legion books, and we need more Marine Chapter books. We also need Eldar Craftworld books, Ork Klan books, and even Tau Sept books and Tyranid Hive Fleet books. This shouldn't come at the expense of updating the long out-of-date armies like Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Inquisition, of course. But I'm not happy with a system where only Marines get their own special Chapter books, and everyone else is stuck with one codex.

brightblade
17-10-2009, 19:55
I totally agree with you, Ixe. Totally.