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View Full Version : Grey hunters are hurting my head!



Chairman_woo
16-10-2009, 20:17
I tried searching for posts on this one but the search for whatever reason dosent appear to be working for me, so if this is the millionth time this has been asked please do feel free to burn me alive.

I'm a vannila marine player and one of my regular opponents has wolves, have been reading his codex and everything seems reasonable to me bar one thing. Ive wracked my brain trying to figure this one out but cant seem to find a satisfactory explanation, how are grey hunters only 15pts?

...

15pts a moddel gets you tac marine stats + counter attack, acute senses etc. which in and of itself isent too bad compared to the combat tactics they replace. I can handle that 1 pt cheaper than a tac marine isent going to end the world even if I am a little jealous....

You also get to take 2 special weapons rather than a heavy and get to post wolf guard with them and add cool little upgrades like mark of the wulfen to the squad. Once again all a bit nasty from a non SW players POV but all in all understandible and seemingly justified.

but...

they get a freaking bolt pistol and CCW ontop of their normal boltgun that makes them as effective in an assault (as far as i can tell) as my vannilla assault marines! for 1pt less than a tac marine! They might not get a sgt. but they can very easily get a wolfguard for Ld purposes, and they have ATSKNF etc.

so....

How exactly do they ballance out? I'm trying not to grind my axe too much here becuase their might well be something that I overlooked. But if nothing else it seems they appear to have made blood claws a bit pointless by comparison, let alone made my tac marines feel somewhat impotent.
Ive heard people suggest that you pay more for charachters etc. but not only does this sound absurd in the context of a codex thats supposed to allow you to build largeley any style of army you like (i.e. as charachter heavy or light as you fancy), but it simply dosent seem to bear out to me, wolf charachters are relativeley expensive but they bloody should be for the abilities they have.

Are 15pt grey hunters an oversight? or is there something significant i'm missing/have got wrong?

Please feel free to abuse me etc. if you think i'm just being a whiney burke, I just want to know why so I can resolve the matter in my head one way or another, as it stands its really bugging me. I can deal with them just being OP or whatever I just cant get my head around what the hell went through the designers head.

Any thaughts are welcome.

RealMikeBob
16-10-2009, 20:21
I would point out that the one Wolf Guard taken means one less elite slot for other tasty units. But yes, they are ridiculously good value as a unit. The lack of cheap heavy weapons is a pain, but compensated for by the cheap specials. My main problem with them is the reduction in special close combat weapons. I now have loads of spare ones kicking around :mad:

Xelloss
16-10-2009, 21:19
Grey hunters seems to be cheap to balance the extra-costy HQ units - maybe GW missed to see someone could keep them cheap -_-

I'm more worried about saga and their "optional flaws" : WTF ? I can say to my opponent "booooo Russ wouldn't be proud of you" if they defeat me without following the saga's restrictions ? How is this balancing anything ?

Vandelan
16-10-2009, 21:21
Is someone forgetting that Space Wolves don't have Combat Squads?

Tactical Marines and Grey Hunters serve different purposes. If you look at the big picture;

Tactical Marines can get the most from taking a full squad and all of their cheap upgrades and stay a very mid-range shooting unit. The HW just sweetens the deal, especially considering how it all meshes with Combat Tactics and Combat Squads. Combat Tactics is especially nice considering Tactical Marines prefer to stay out of combat in order to shoot.

Grey Hunters serve as a mid-range unit that is well rounded, they don't get the same firepower as Tactical Marines, so they make up for it in combat. Honestly, Acute Senses isn't worth mentioning past this, on the other hand Counter-attack is an amazing ability. Grey Hunters have to be good in combat or else they would just get close to their target and then get overwhelmed or tied up in combat.

Long story short, Tactical Marines are shooty mid to long range while Grey Hunters are stabby short to mid range.

Corrode
16-10-2009, 23:03
If they have two special weapons and a Wolf Guard then they can't fit in a Rhino; in an edition which is heavily mechanised and in which footslogging MEQ get eaten alive by pie plates that's not good. If they only take one weapon they only have one weapon, if they take both weapons but no WG they're Leadership 8 which isn't spectacular.

That's not to say they're not underpriced - Grey Hunters mess up the internal balance of the codex a little to be honest, since they're very very good for their points. Overall a double melta/Rhino squad comes out to 190pts compared to a melta/MM/Rhino Tac Marine squad at 210pts, but that's not too bad when you remember that the vanilla Marines have better range on their anti-tank weapon, Ld9, and the opportunity to take a multiple-attack power fist.

@Xelloss the saga 'oath' bits are supposed to be a bit of fluffy fun, they're not intended as real downsides with a game impact. The downside is points cost and the fact that you can only have one of each Saga in an army, which given that you can have 4 HQ choices could be a serious limitation. Not everything in a codex has to be about hard rules; sometimes they can add things which are just amusing and flavourful without having a game effect.

Chairman_woo
16-10-2009, 23:03
Is someone forgetting that Space Wolves don't have Combat Squads?

Tactical Marines and Grey Hunters serve different purposes. If you look at the big picture;

Tactical Marines can get the most from taking a full squad and all of their cheap upgrades and stay a very mid-range shooting unit. The HW just sweetens the deal, especially considering how it all meshes with Combat Tactics and Combat Squads. Combat Tactics is especially nice considering Tactical Marines prefer to stay out of combat in order to shoot.

Grey Hunters serve as a mid-range unit that is well rounded, they don't get the same firepower as Tactical Marines, so they make up for it in combat. Honestly, Acute Senses isn't worth mentioning past this, on the other hand Counter-attack is an amazing ability. Grey Hunters have to be good in combat or else they would just get close to their target and then get overwhelmed or tied up in combat.

Long story short, Tactical Marines are shooty mid to long range while Grey Hunters are stabby short to mid range.


Thing is as far is I can tell bar the heavy weapon (which can often be of dubious value in a tac squad, I'd sooner take an extra special weapon under most circumstances) grey hunters are just as good at shooting as tac marines, but they kick noticably more **** in CC. Combat squads and combat tactics have their moments, but to my mind pale in comparison to +1 attack from the CCW (plus all the other horrible things like counter attack).

It kindof seems like grey hunters infact do largeley the same job as tac marines, and arguably do so better under alot of circumstances. But even if that is not the case It still dosent justify them being cheaper than tac marines in my head, shureley grey hunters are better off most of the time?

I guess you do get a free Heavy weapon and a sgt. in a tac squad tho, that goes some way to bridgeing the gap in my head. I just cant get over the idea that grey hunters are better at being tac marines than tac marines alot of the time.
Am I just plain wrong in thinking that?

Corrode
16-10-2009, 23:11
The 3rd edition codex iirc had the Veteran Sergeants as an optional upgrade and charged points for all special weapons. In 5th the points cost for a heavy weapon and Vet Sarge is incorporated into the squad you buy, and the points for a flamer (5) are incorporated into the extra point per model (16 vs. 15 in 3rd) for the other 5 models.

Grey Hunters have to buy their Sergeant separately and he comes at a minimum of 18pts with no gear; in effect the 20pt disparity between similarly equipped Tactical and Grey Hunter squads covers this. You can argue about Acute Senses (mostly worthless) and Counter-Attack/CCW vs. Combat Tactics/Squads all you like, but the actual points work out just fine (though maybe the GH should be a point more to reflect the cost of a CCW).

IAMNOTHERE
16-10-2009, 23:11
I think you are, GH fit the tac marine role in CSW but lack the tools to do a tac marine job.

The only real option you have with GH is to barrel forward and rapid fire, you don't have the range to play a waiting game with half the squad.

Chairman_woo
16-10-2009, 23:22
Ok I think things are starting to slot into place a bit in my head, I think perhaps I'm a little jealous about that extra CCW and its clouding my judgement.

So its largeley a case of grey hunters being a little underpriced, but being roughly ballanced when all is said and done. Just the poor blood claws that seem to loose out on the whole deal? I can live with that...

IAMNOTHERE
16-10-2009, 23:41
Think about it this way, GH work best at rapid fire range. That works both ways so they're exposed to anything they don't kill.

A Tac squad can happily sit back babysitting a lascannon, still achieving a purpose.

NovaScotius
17-10-2009, 01:28
Think of it this way, Grey Hunters may well be better than Tactical Marines in some situations, but they are pretty much the main killing unit in a Space Wolf army - Regular Space Marines have very cheap TH/SS Terminators and Stern Guard for their really killy units. Space Wolves do have access to shiny toys like TH/SS Termies, but pay through the nose for them, so get a price break in the troop section. It's all relative :)

AngryAngel
17-10-2009, 01:42
To be honest, I find vanilla marine players complaining grey hunters are too cheap is kinda funny to me. Just relax yourselves, yeah they probably are too cheap. I play DA though and everything pretty much vanilla marines have is cheaper then me. Let alone SW. Be happy you don't play DA.

dblaz3r
17-10-2009, 01:56
Think of it this way, Grey Hunters may well be better than Tactical Marines in some situations, but they are pretty much the main killing unit in a Space Wolf army - Regular Space Marines have very cheap TH/SS Terminators and Stern Guard for their really killy units. Space Wolves do have access to shiny toys like TH/SS Termies, but pay through the nose for them, so get a price break in the troop section. It's all relative :)

Especially when you start comparing C:SM assault squads with C:SW assault packs.


... Be happy you don't play DA.

Heresy!!!

AngryAngel
17-10-2009, 02:05
It takes a hardy soul to stay with the DA book brother. You have to face the fact we're the few, the proud the unforgiven.

dblaz3r
17-10-2009, 02:19
Fine words Brother.

SharpSilver
17-10-2009, 03:24
The Space Wolves dex' is along the lines of 'an eye for an eye' It's 'slightly' obvious where we lose entries such as Ironclads, LSS and Bikers as troops and other negatives such as less space for our LR and Drop Pods, we gain things to counter-balance this negativity. It's completely justifiable and I would never expect anybody to deny this, it's common sense.

Toadius80
17-10-2009, 04:12
Denied, lol

Dexter099
17-10-2009, 04:59
The Space Wolves dex' is along the lines of 'an eye for an eye' It's 'slightly' obvious where we lose entries such as Ironclads, LSS and Bikers as troops and other negatives such as less space for our LR and Drop Pods, we gain things to counter-balance this negativity. It's completely justifiable and I would never expect anybody to deny this, it's common sense.

I can understand how the Space Wolves trade some things for others. I can understand Wolf Claws, Sagas, and everything in their codex, except for Grey Hunters. They're way better than Blood Claws point for point, and are excessively cheap. I could understand it if they dropped in points a little bit to 17, but 15...there's just no reason for it.

It throws off all sorts of internal balance. What's the point of Blood Claws? Of Assualt Marines? You can get better for cheaper. And tactical marines may have a few advantages, but they still don't get close combat prowess, free weapons, combat flexibility, cheap weapons, and lots of fancy rules.

If Grey Hunters were 17, even 16 points I could understand it, because one could argue that the Space Wolves trade some stuff off for other stuff, making it an equal trade- static shooting for close combat. But how do they get it worse than vanilla marines? I think that's what most people like me have a problem with.

And no, expensive characters for cheaper troops is not a valid argument. The Space Wolves already get a trade-off just by the virtue of the fact that their HQs are better, so you're just paying for what you get. It's not bad thing. You can make your characters cheaper if you like.

burning crome
17-10-2009, 05:12
It has to be said when you actually start looking though the SW options and start putting a list together you do start to notice all the really cool stuff cost a small fortune. It quite interesting to see what people are coming up with but one thing you do notice is that the total model count is no higher than a C:SM list of equal points.
GH are far and away the best 3+ troop choice out their at the moment (I still thing the 6pt ork is over all best) but the price and lack of other options mean that these list are far form invincible. I got some SW hidden away my self and am currently looking at their options and over all I not massive inspired by the codex.
My main stumbling block is it quite hard to do a themed list such as a C:SM bike or dread podding list. The codex seems to force you into taken quite predictable options, whist the other choice seem to incur quite a disadvantage I points and effectiveness. Take the sky claws (I have a pack so this one is most annoying for me) for example, why on earth do them not have the option of a wolf guard joining them??. These guy really need some leadership to over come their headstonge rule and stop them running. Of course the solution is to take a IC in this case a wolf priest being the most appealing to counter act their BS and WS reduction. But it has the down side of both adding 125pts to a not cheap unit (ok their a bit cheaper than standard pack but they only get to take one special weapon) and making them fearless.
So most people are going to ignore them and go for more GH. My basic point is that every list is going to be pretty much the same as ever other. Once people learn a few tricks to counter act the IC (remember those WG join a unit so if I right they can be targeted like IC in combat) then I think their (SW) are going to struggle a bit.
The only build that differs that I’ve see so far is the WG as troops option. There a nice one of three squads in term armour of eight in LRC that look quite interesting. But again the lack of deep strike leaves them venerable early on I’d hate to see them go up against a dark lance DE list.

Juggalo
17-10-2009, 05:35
WG are not independent characters and cannot be singled out in combat any more than Warlocks leading guardian squads.

shabbadoo
17-10-2009, 06:50
Is someone forgetting that Space Wolves don't have Combat Squads?

Are you forgetting that Grey Hunters can be bought in squads of 5? And they can get a special weapon(and 1 plasma pistol, and 1 pw/pf, and 1 crazy rending Mark of the Wulfen model) in a unit of 5 without needing 10 marines in their squad? Effectively they do have a Combat Squads option. They just have to pay a full Troops FOC slot for each of them. Space Wolves can field four 5-man Grey Hunters squads(I'd go with 6-man squads in Razorbacks) and still be able to field two huge packs of Blood Claws in a single FOC. Not bad. Most people probably won't be taking all six Troops slots on the FOC anyways, as there are lots of other great unit choices among the other FOC categories.

Grey Hunters are a little cheap for what they get, though not by much. Grey Hunters could have been 16 points each. Overall this is not a big deal though, as it is only a difference of 2 to 3 extra marines(30-45 points) in the average 1500 point army. The Counter-Attack ability is just a very useful skill, especially when combined with the close combat weapon and ATSKNF(and a Mark of the Wulfen model). Grey Hunters seem overly good, but time will tell as we see more Grey Hunter-heavy Space Wolves armies take to the field of play.

Captain Idaho
17-10-2009, 10:39
Apart from comparing points costs across Codex books being irrelevent to the over all army comparisons between Codex books, I would say the biggest reason they are "surprisingly cheap" is due to the fact the whole Space Wolves Troops section is geared to assault, and for taking objectives that is ok but holding them is not so good.

2x 5-man Grey Hunters squads holding objectives close to the Space Wolves player deployment zone will have little to no effect on opponents to the mechanised nature of 40K now-a-days. A few bolters and the odd Plasma gun at 24" aren't going to crack that Mechanised Imperial Guard force bringing their Leman Russ tanks and Chimera transports to bear, where as a combat squaded Tactical squad (only a single Troops choice too) can fire their free heavy weapon at the enemy at range from a Rhino and still have a Plasma gun and bolters supporting them in a second unit.

What's more the 1/3 of games that will be Kill Points can enable the Space Marines player to go full strength in the Tactical squad, yielding a maximum of 2 Kill Points for the squad plus transport. Those same Grey Hunters, if they have at least 1 transport (and should have for protection at least) will yeild 2 for the squads and 1 per transport, plus the 5 man squads are far easier to destroy to boot.

It's all a balancing act that players forget. Play to the objectives and your opponent will have to do the same and that is where 40K is balanced. If you go toe to toe with his Grey Hunters with your Tactical squads etc, then you will lose.

The biggest problem with the Codex is how Blood Claws are all but pointless unless you take a big squad in a Landraider and attach a Wolf Priest or some such. The previous Codex no-one took Grey Hunters and took Blood Claws but now it will be the other way round. Not unbalnced, just a shame.

grissom2006
17-10-2009, 10:51
I tried searching for posts on this one but the search for whatever reason dosent appear to be working for me, so if this is the millionth time this has been asked please do feel free to burn me alive.

I'm a vannila marine player and one of my regular opponents has wolves, have been reading his codex and everything seems reasonable to me bar one thing. Ive wracked my brain trying to figure this one out but cant seem to find a satisfactory explanation, how are grey hunters only 15pts?

...

15pts a moddel gets you tac marine stats + counter attack, acute senses etc. which in and of itself isent too bad compared to the combat tactics they replace. I can handle that 1 pt cheaper than a tac marine isent going to end the world even if I am a little jealous....

You also get to take 2 special weapons rather than a heavy and get to post wolf guard with them and add cool little upgrades like mark of the wulfen to the squad. Once again all a bit nasty from a non SW players POV but all in all understandible and seemingly justified.

but...

they get a freaking bolt pistol and CCW ontop of their normal boltgun that makes them as effective in an assault (as far as i can tell) as my vannilla assault marines! for 1pt less than a tac marine! They might not get a sgt. but they can very easily get a wolfguard for Ld purposes, and they have ATSKNF etc.

so....

How exactly do they ballance out? I'm trying not to grind my axe too much here becuase their might well be something that I overlooked. But if nothing else it seems they appear to have made blood claws a bit pointless by comparison, let alone made my tac marines feel somewhat impotent.
Ive heard people suggest that you pay more for charachters etc. but not only does this sound absurd in the context of a codex thats supposed to allow you to build largeley any style of army you like (i.e. as charachter heavy or light as you fancy), but it simply dosent seem to bear out to me, wolf charachters are relativeley expensive but they bloody should be for the abilities they have.

Are 15pt grey hunters an oversight? or is there something significant i'm missing/have got wrong?

Please feel free to abuse me etc. if you think i'm just being a whiney burke, I just want to know why so I can resolve the matter in my head one way or another, as it stands its really bugging me. I can deal with them just being OP or whatever I just cant get my head around what the hell went through the designers head.

Any thaughts are welcome.

Mean while a SM player gets a free Special and Heavy Weapon complete with a Veteran Serg. Then the Combat Tactics and the Combat Squads rules all on top. Vanilla Marines can break up squads Space Wolves can't they also don't get to take extra men to soak up wounds in Long Fang Units unlike Vanilla Marines. As for SM characters you get a huge number all for a hell of a lot cheaper than a SW player gets them for theirs. Hell SM Captains for Vanilla Marines come with a INV save included a SW player pays the same for a Wolf Lord and gets no such luxury they have to buy one.