PDA

View Full Version : I thought I would never be this annoying



Brother Alexos
18-10-2009, 02:52
I just learned that the one army that I wanted to play with, The Vampire Counts, are a broken list. I don't want to have an army that is unstoppable, Or one that was a Good Race either. I would like to know what you think for making my army, would I be able to make a non-broken army out of the VC? or should I go for some other army such as Orcs&Goblins?

captainC
18-10-2009, 02:58
I dont think VC's are OP, just that certain magic heavy builds are really difficult to fight against.
And who pray tell told you they were OP. :mad:

Brother Alexos
18-10-2009, 03:00
Wait.. You're telling me that if I go with a magic-light army, that I am OK?

Dexter099 told me they were broken and hard to fight against!!!!

I am going for an infantry force

Also, is having two corpse carts good or can I sell one?

kardar233
18-10-2009, 03:14
Yeah; as long as you go magic-light and don't take a Blood Knight Deathstar, your army will generally be quite reasonable. People tend to dislike Ghouls, but Skeletons and Zombies should work just fine. Grave Guard are a very nice anvil unit, and if you pair them up with their mounted cousins or any of the Rare choices they'll do quite well.

If you intentionally make a powerful VC list, it'll be one of the nastiest out there. However, unlike some armies, making a balanced, moderate list is quite easy. Daemons, for example, you actually have to intentionally look through the book and pick the weakest options in order to not massacre your opponent.

TheDean04
18-10-2009, 03:20
I play VC primarily and I run it balanced. I loose some I win some, I have fun and my opponent does as well. Win or loose I have fun, its not broken and it works for me.

theunwantedbeing
18-10-2009, 03:27
Non-broken Vamps are easy to make.

Just follow a few simple rules:

1. If you have to cast invocation over and over on 1 dice, make sure your not getting a +1 to cast it and you arent casting it on grave guard
2. Avoid red fury combo's as these are all broken.
3. Dont take the Drakenhof banner
4. Avoid using loads of ethereals, these can often be hell to deal with unless you are daemons.
5. If half you army is spent on character's, your doing it wrong.

That's basically it really.
Vamps are "broken" due to spamming of invocation and the graveguard bunker where a vamp BsB carries the drakenhof banner around and the rest of the models in the army are there to simply spam raise those grave guard back as fast as possible.

Concentrate on troops and you'll be fine really.

Brother Alexos
18-10-2009, 03:31
Great! you see, I am running a Warhammer Fantasy club at my High school. No one (including me) has an army. I decided to make this a type of Mighty Empires campaign where if you invade an enemy country, the enemy will be defending and the attacker well, attacking. I have decided to get a Battalion, Spearhead, a Cairn wraith (for a diorama, of course) and a few Doom Wolves, and I was to use the tactic fromt he Soul Drinker Omnibus that "to defend you must attack until they have nothing to attack you with. ALEXOS IS HAPPYFACE!!

Agoz
18-10-2009, 06:00
What kind of tactic is that? Isn't that just basically saying a good offense is a good defense? Is there more to this Soul Drinker tactic that I'm not hearing here?

Brother Alexos
18-10-2009, 07:04
Well, one its a good defense is a good offence, and two, yes there is. You see, your supposed to use every other unit excepting your hardest as chaff to draw ranged units into close combat, then after they have been doing this for a turn or two, your harder units come in and wipe them out, leaving your lord and a hard unit or two to defend the objective. For VC, though, you are probably casting summoning spells those two turns to make ghouls, skellies, and zombies to back up the much fewer and harder units.

Basically, Its like if you took your Orks, and started attacking every unit on the board, leaving your Warboss and the Bikers, DeffDreads, Meganobz, and Killakans behind to mop up.

To me it seems sound enough.

Maoriboy007
18-10-2009, 07:43
VC are not broken, Demons are broken.
If your group is just starting, then VC TK & Demons are a bit easier to play as they don't need to worry about Psycology but will be pretty tough opponants for noobs playing with other armies.
DE LM & WoC are just as as tough but can take some experience to master, as long as your opponants don't get discouraged to start off with, they will soon find and exploit your weaknesses.
If you go light on the magic and heavy on the combat you should be fine.

Gorbad Ironclaw
18-10-2009, 09:22
Vamps are "broken" due to spamming of invocation

Not really. The list is based around a certain amount of Invocations being used, else the troops would be a lot cheaper.

The only real problem I've seen people have with the magic is when you spam Dance. Magical movement on demand several times a turn is really good and can easily win you the game.

Replacing some troops is really good too but generally don't win you the game out of hand.

Honestly I wouldn't worry over much about it. VC is a strong list sure but it's far from unbeatable and offers you a whole lot of options that all tend to work. It's also a very customisable army list so you can easily go for whatever army you like and then tune it up of down depending on how your local playing group is.

On a final note I'll say it's a lot more enjoyable using a competent army rather than a bad army. It also tends to give you many more options for things to use.

Idle Scholar
18-10-2009, 10:54
Just build your army according to this system http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf

It scores you on what you take, with the more powerful the build the less the points. Unless you can get your opponent to use it as well I'd only use it as a guide but if you aim for a score of 1000pts or more you should avoid the cheesiest builds.

Unuhexium
18-10-2009, 11:10
http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf.

The composition system is a nice way to even the playing field a bit and it adds an extra dimension of strategy. My gaming group usually play with a minimum score of 15 (rounded off to nearest in case of fraction) and so far most of our games have been really even.

zoggin-eck
18-10-2009, 11:24
How did you "learn" that the Vampire Counts are a broken list? Because someone on the internet told you? Please.

If it's a new group and nobody has armies yet, I doubt that everyone will suddenly begin with over the top power armies, and if everyone is a novice (I assume this because you said that nobody has an army?) I don't see that introducing outside rules on how to "score" peoples army lists is a good idea.

Just stick to the rules mate and enjoy the game :) If you seriously start to have people obsessed with winning and using stupid lists, tell them to join another club!

w3rm
18-10-2009, 14:02
Just build your army according to this system http://atlantis.sverok.net/WPS/RT_WPS_Comp.pdf

I use that comp score but it kills you if you take magic and magic defense. My Orcs and Gobbos got a 9.525 because I took effectively took 9 dispell dice. It will KILL armies like Vampires and Tomb Kings as they need magic to survive.

ohno!zombies!
18-10-2009, 14:31
Vamps are not "broken". They do have a list that is easy to exploit. I myself play a very soft VC list.

Your probably safe if you stick to your infantry idea. (loads of skeletons and zombies)

best,

artyboy
18-10-2009, 14:54
Non-broken Vamps are easy to make.

Just follow a few simple rules:

1. If you have to cast invocation over and over on 1 dice, make sure your not getting a +1 to cast it and you arent casting it on grave guard
2. Avoid red fury combo's as these are all broken.
3. Dont take the Drakenhof banner
4. Avoid using loads of ethereals, these can often be hell to deal with unless you are daemons.
5. If half you army is spent on character's, your doing it wrong.

That's basically it really.
Vamps are "broken" due to spamming of invocation and the graveguard bunker where a vamp BsB carries the drakenhof banner around and the rest of the models in the army are there to simply spam raise those grave guard back as fast as possible.

Concentrate on troops and you'll be fine really.

This is a great way to ensure that you will never ever win a game unless you get lucky or your opponent is just a really horrible player. By following these rules you're effectively ignoring everything that makes VC playable. VC is not a broken list. They're straightforward and easy to learn how to play effectively.

theunwantedbeing
18-10-2009, 16:01
This is a great way to ensure that you will never ever win a game unless you get lucky or your opponent is just a really horrible player. By following these rules you're effectively ignoring everything that makes VC playable. VC is not a broken list. They're straightforward and easy to learn how to play effectively.

Your the type of person I would hit round the head with my hardback rulebook for saying such nonsensical drivel.

1. I didnt say dont spam, just dont spam on grave guard or with a +1.
2. Red fury pushes most item combo's over the edge. Hero's with upto 6 st5 attacks? pretty harsh if you ask me. Nobody else gets that good at all.
3. The drakenhof banner is one of the few VC items that are actually broken, despite its large cost. Due to its ability to turn a unit into a deathstar, especially when combined with spamming...specifically on grave guard.
4. Ethereals generally need magic to deal with them, most armies wont have enough to deal with a lot of ethereals, especalyl not when you have a tonne of vampires adding a sizeable dispel ability to the army.
5. Spending most of your points on character's means you are stuck relying on them, usually to spam raise and such. Taking less character's means more troops to begin with so less need to spam raise them during the game.

Back up any points with facts please. Like I just did.

Idle Scholar
18-10-2009, 16:54
I use that comp score but it kills you if you take magic and magic defense. My Orcs and Gobbos got a 9.525 because I took effectively took 9 dispell dice. It will KILL armies like Vampires and Tomb Kings as they need magic to survive.

It does give VC and TK a bit of a break in the magic department so they can have more power and dispel dice relative to other armies with a similar comp score.

If you try and compare them to a standard magic heavy army which typically comp at about 0 then yes they would be a bit hamstrung, but that's why I'd recommend not sticking to the system exactly if you opponent doesn't want to try it, but using it as a guide.

Dr. Acula
18-10-2009, 16:55
The only thing that makes VC cheesy (IMO) is the Lord of the Dead etc abilities. They're not at all scary if they don't increase their army about 300 points above the game total every turn.

ZigZagMan
18-10-2009, 18:02
Wooo Who! My Dogs of War army just got 26.73 on that scale, what a surprise.

Brother Alexos
18-10-2009, 18:57
Well, I am wondering if it would be OK to make some of my own units? I was thinking of making some ghouls by taking a skellie and Greenstuff and making him look like he is covered in rags like the spirit host. Though I was thinking of painting him to look as if he is on fire so that in Raids and the such I can burn down smaller churches or what not.

Maoriboy007
18-10-2009, 20:19
Your the type of person I would hit round the head with my hardback rulebook for saying such nonsensical drivel.

1. I didnt say dont spam, just dont spam on grave guard or with a +1.
2. Red fury pushes most item combo's over the edge. Hero's with upto 6 st5 attacks? pretty harsh if you ask me. Nobody else gets that good at all.
3. The drakenhof banner is one of the few VC items that are actually broken, despite its large cost. Due to its ability to turn a unit into a deathstar, especially when combined with spamming...specifically on grave guard.
4. Ethereals generally need magic to deal with them, most armies wont have enough to deal with a lot of ethereals, especalyl not when you have a tonne of vampires adding a sizeable dispel ability to the army.
5. Spending most of your points on character's means you are stuck relying on them, usually to spam raise and such. Taking less character's means more troops to begin with so less need to spam raise them during the game.

Back up any points with facts please. Like I just did.

I usually agree with MAl's fine advice, and he makes valid points BUT.....

Spamming Nehekis fine if:
1. Your opponant continulously dipels them ,your army take more casualties than most after all, you need to balance that out with raising.
2. You fail to raise at least 4 models on a unit (stop at 6 in friendly play)

Red Fury combos can be annoying,but its not so good against characters , heavy armour (a lance charge being an exception) and ward saves. Its a great infantry killer , but most characters are anyway. A Lord with a full RF combo is can be devestating on the charge, but if he get charged first or locked in a continued combat he's pretty vulnerable, he's a hammer, but a Glass one.

I personally think the cost of the D BAnner reflects it ability, in advanced games there is nothing wrong with it. However in beginner games I'd leave it ot as noobs won't have any idea how to deal with it. The same applies to Ethereals.

Unfortunatly characters is how VC works, they dictate the style and function. If you can get what you want with less character then fine, but dont be afraid to max out if you need to. I would recommend that you always take at least 2-3 combat orientated characters, just sitting back throwing poewr dice is just as boring as a gunline and no fun for verybody.


Finally, try 1000-1500 point battles first, no lords makes a huge difference to VC. And leave the Drakenhoff BAnner and Master of the Black arts at home until your mates get a bit better at the game.

O&G'sRule
18-10-2009, 20:21
I just learned that the one army that I wanted to play with, The Vampire Counts, are a broken list. I don't want to have an army that is unstoppable, Or one that was a Good Race either. I would like to know what you think for making my army, would I be able to make a non-broken army out of the VC? or should I go for some other army such as Orcs&Goblins?

The book isn't broken, but they are very easy to make a very hard list and win with no real knowlege of the game, but they aren't auto win or anything. I know a guy with a horrendous VC army that gets wooped almost every game. But then he has a daemon army that suffers similar fates too. Don't be put off the army by what you read on here, as time goes on and new armies are released the gap will narrow anyway as has been proven with the armies released since. The undead have always needed to be character heavy so I wouldn't even agree with the don't spend over half points on them advice. Don't forget, kill the general and all goes up a well known creek

ohno!zombies!
18-10-2009, 20:46
I know a guy with a horrendous VC army that gets wooped almost every game.

I'm that guy. :cries:

If you like the look and fluff of the VC book then I suggest you go with them. At least until you lose interest and move on to another army (like most gamers[myself included])

best,

artyboy
19-10-2009, 02:41
Your the type of person I would hit round the head with my hardback rulebook for saying such nonsensical drivel.

Oooo an internet tough guy. You're the type of person that I would love to see try it.


1. I didnt say dont spam, just dont spam on grave guard or with a +1.

Ahh yes. So don't try to keep your best anvil unit alive. Grave guard are not good combat troops. They win by attrition. If you don't raise them every turn then they won't be able to stand up to anything. You only get the +1 to cast if you bring a skull staff...which is a 65 point item...which pretty much ensures that you'll be able to sneeze on the lord and kill it.


2. Red fury pushes most item combo's over the edge. Hero's with upto 6 st5 attacks? pretty harsh if you ask me. Nobody else gets that good at all.

The only item that combos well with Red Fury is the dreadlance. On the opposite end of the spectrum from the caster lord is this guy. Now you've got a glass cannon that will wreck whatever he gets into combat with on the first round of combat. Meanwhile the rest of his army is falling apart around him because he doesn't have enough magic to keep raising stuff faster than it gets killed.


3. The drakenhof banner is one of the few VC items that are actually broken, despite its large cost. Due to its ability to turn a unit into a deathstar, especially when combined with spamming...specifically on grave guard.

I disagree completely. The high cost ensures that it's not broken. Put it in a grave guard unit and you've got a slow unit that's hard to kill but easy to avoid. Put it in a unit like blood knights and you've got a really hard hitting unit that's stupidly expensive for so few models. That and they're subject to frenzy which isn't that hard to exploit. Most armies also have access to flaming attacks and regen is a big enough problem across the board that it's definitely worthwhile to work a way to deal with it into your list.


4. Ethereals generally need magic to deal with them, most armies wont have enough to deal with a lot of ethereals, especalyl not when you have a tonne of vampires adding a sizeable dispel ability to the army.

I assume you're talking about wraiths. They're either awesome or they're free points for your enemy. They're so expensive that you can't really take a big unit of them so if just a couple of magic missiles get through you're toast. They're also extremely vulnerable to combat res. If you're a good general and you're fielding a balanced list you'll be able to exploit this weakness. Anything with a magic weapon will hack through them with ease.


5. Spending most of your points on character's means you are stuck relying on them, usually to spam raise and such. Taking less character's means more troops to begin with so less need to spam raise them during the game.

It doesn't quite work that way in practice. Undead rank and file are extremely weak and they tend to die in droves. You have to take very large units if you expect them to survive a round of shooting or stick around once your opponent gets into CC. Not only are you taking away from your characters when you have to pay for 30 models per unit rather than 10 or 15 but you're denying yourself units that can actually do something more than annoy your opponent.


Back up any points with facts please. Like I just did.

Your "facts" sound more like opinions.

Caiphas Cain
19-10-2009, 02:58
You only get the +1 to cast if you bring a skull staff...which is a 65 point item...which pretty much ensures that you'll be able to sneeze on the lord and kill it.

Unless its manfred :D.

He is rediculous. Casting IoN on a 2+ for skellies and wolves.

That is the one thing I would avoid taking if you don't want to be cheesy.

outbreak
19-10-2009, 03:08
VC special characters are what gets annoying to me but luckily we don't play with special characters often at all. Alot of armies can do builds that are no fun so as long as your not a person who plays cut throat for the win and is able to tone down your own list if you see bits your friends can't handle i see no reason stopping you from playing any army.

Jind_Singh
19-10-2009, 03:10
After reading the Von Carstien trillogy I'm toying with a VC army - but mine would be the horde of skeleton warriors - 4 castors and a shed load of bone heads. I'd also buy tons of zombies - but converted from my main opponents armies - so that way I can raise their own dead to fit against their former comrades!
My ideal game would be to end up 3 times my starting force in the field! I'll spend a whole day killing just 2-3 elites as I have all the time in the world, after all we're undead, what else we got to do with out time?

Vermin-thing
19-10-2009, 03:15
Rule one: Don't take manfred at all. End of story. He is broken in every sense of the word. Even the hero version is broken.

Rule two: Try to limit the amount of vampires that you field, one with two necromancers, and a wright king is balanced. Try to avoid giving all of your necromancers Vanhells dance mc cheese.

Rule three: No more than 5 bloodnights, with no more than one hero level characer. No more than two characters in any GG unit.

Rule four: Don't take manfred.

Rule five: Again, don't take manfred.

Rule six: as long as you comply to rules 1, 4, and 5, you'll be fine.

Rule seven: Did I mention not taking manfred?

theunwantedbeing
19-10-2009, 03:23
Ahh yes. So don't try to keep your best anvil unit alive. Grave guard are not good combat troops. They win by attrition. If you don't raise them every turn then they won't be able to stand up to anything. You only get the +1 to cast if you bring a skull staff...which is a 65 point item...which pretty much ensures that you'll be able to sneeze on the lord and kill it.


We clearly arent arguing the same point.
I did not say do not cast invcation on grave guard.
Similarly, grave guard are usable as combat troops, 1 st4 killing blow attack is quite good, especially with a +1 to hit on them. T4, a 3+ save and regen goes a very long way to keeping them alive against most things.
As for your comment on the t5 3 wound vampire lord being easily killable as he carries a 65pt item....35pts left for magic items, 100pts left for powers.
Red fury and regen is 75pts, a 2+ save from dreadknight is the rest of the hundred. You can buy the accursed armour for less than 35pts, t6 vamp lord anyone? or perhaps make him immune to killing blow and poison? or buy a 4+ ward save, or a 3+ ward vs ranged attacks?
Even a naked vampire lord is killable by simply sneezing on it, unless perhaps you are Khorne.



The only item that combos well with Red Fury is the dreadlance. On the opposite end of the spectrum from the caster lord is this guy. Now you've got a glass cannon that will wreck whatever he gets into combat with on the first round of combat. Meanwhile the rest of his army is falling apart around him because he doesn't have enough magic to keep raising stuff faster than it gets killed.


A regular lance is fine. You can add in hatred if needs be, be it from a power or by being in a unit with the banner (easy enough as well). The Blood drinker and the Tomb blade also work very well with Red fury for regaining models.
As I pointed out above, the guy can also be a perfectly potent caster in addition to this.



I disagree completely. The high cost ensures that it's not broken. Put it in a grave guard unit and you've got a slow unit that's hard to kill but easy to avoid. Put it in a unit like blood knights and you've got a really hard hitting unit that's stupidly expensive for so few models. That and they're subject to frenzy which isn't that hard to exploit. Most armies also have access to flaming attacks and regen is a big enough problem across the board that it's definitely worthwhile to work a way to deal with it into your list.


It's high cost is largely meaningless. Avoiding such a huge pointsink is a bad idea. It's a 4+ save vs most things, and a 4+ save vs wounds suffered thrugh crumble. It grants massive surviviability.
Look at Daemons with the plaguebearer unit with a herald, there is the exact same issue. You have a unit that regenerates and is hugely difficult to deal with. Throw in the unit regianing D6 models per single casting of a once dice spell that can be attempted 12+ times a turn and you have a unit you are going to struggle to defeat.




I assume you're talking about wraiths. They're either awesome or they're free points for your enemy. They're so expensive that you can't really take a big unit of them so if just a couple of magic missiles get through you're toast. They're also extremely vulnerable to combat res. If you're a good general and you're fielding a balanced list you'll be able to exploit this weakness. Anything with a magic weapon will hack through them with ease.


Wraiths have 2 st5 attacks each, they are not that vulnerable to combat res at all. Yes a magical missle can kill them, they are easily screened by other means like dire wolves. Character's with magic weapons do go through them easily, that's why you dont fight them with wraiths.
You cant say they arent good because they suck against the speicifc things that they suck against.



It doesn't quite work that way in practice. Undead rank and file are extremely weak and they tend to die in droves. You have to take very large units if you expect them to survive a round of shooting or stick around once your opponent gets into CC. Not only are you taking away from your characters when you have to pay for 30 models per unit rather than 10 or 15 but you're denying yourself units that can actually do something more than annoy your opponent.


Only zombies are particularly fragile.
Skeletons only suffer due to being ws2, t3 4+ save is normal. Plus they do not break at all. Most break tests are 3-4pts, killing 3-4 more skellies is meaningless to them.
Larger units are the ones that survive to reach the enemy.
25 skeletons with command is 220pts,
25 DE spearmen with command is 190pts, not a huge difference really.
The larger units mean you dont need to spam raise them in the first place. Just a couple of castings each turn usually.

Brother Alexos
19-10-2009, 03:23
Does anyone think it would be too cheesey if I made an almost all zombie army?

Leo85
19-10-2009, 05:51
I say if it's in the codex go for it. People that bitch when they lose for me is "cheese" honestly you think on the battlefield before combat both generals talk about this ****? "Hey mister VL you can't raise more than 6 skellies a turn" honestly w/e lol. 3-4 ppl actually kinda take it bad when I "throw the game" Honestly a friend of mine plays deamons and I encourage him to play powerful lists, it's actually fun and fufilling to actually beat him. Some ppl bitch and whine all the time and this is why these issues are caused. I'd rather lose 99 times and win once against a badass army then go 50/50 when I know my opponent is throwing games just to make the person happy. **** I mean even with the most powerful builds a vampire lord is insanely voulnerable. I mean **** my brother gobbos kick the crap outta me from time to time and it makes him happy when he beats a powerful army. If it's in your codex then go for it unless its some really serious shittyness like a conga line where players complain about op armies but do ***** conga lines in their armies. Good VC armies are in fact quite beatable but ppl are too preoccupied about complaining then actually trying to find tactics to win. When I saw some thread earlier about not spending too many points on lords and heros, omg to that poster are you srsly on crack?

Leo85
19-10-2009, 05:54
Non-broken Vamps are easy to make.

Just follow a few simple rules:

1. If you have to cast invocation over and over on 1 dice, make sure your not getting a +1 to cast it and you arent casting it on grave guard
2. Avoid red fury combo's as these are all broken.
3. Dont take the Drakenhof banner
4. Avoid using loads of ethereals, these can often be hell to deal with unless you are daemons.
5. If half you army is spent on character's, your doing it wrong.

That's basically it really.
Vamps are "broken" due to spamming of invocation and the graveguard bunker where a vamp BsB carries the drakenhof banner around and the rest of the models in the army are there to simply spam raise those grave guard back as fast as possible.

Concentrate on troops and you'll be fine really.

here it is, come on man, we're paying for these items through the teeth, I understand if the banner was 50 pts but it's not its ******* 125. I hope ppl are spending close to 1000 pts on lords and heros in 2250 or else they are in a huge world of hurt...

artisturn
19-10-2009, 06:12
Does anyone think it would be too cheesey if I made an almost all zombie army?

No but you will have a hard time winning with it.

with their low weapon skill and Initiative level of one Zombies are going to have a hard time hitting stuff and almost always end up going last.

The major drawback with Zombies is that characters cannot join the units so they don't have that extra killing power a Vampire or a Wright King can bring to an unit.

What Zombies are good for is march blocking units,redirecting frenzied units and using them as a tarpit to tie up an unit while you charge the said unit on its flanks.

Plus as a new player you shouldn't worry if people say this army is broken or over powered you should play the army that you like and will enjoy putting together and painting.

When I picked my army I didn't ask my friends which was the most broken army that will win me games,I picked Vampire Counts because I really enjoy horror movies.

phoenixlaw
19-10-2009, 08:41
Unless its manfred :D.

He is rediculous. Casting IoN on a 2+ for skellies and wolves.

That is the one thing I would avoid taking if you don't want to be cheesy.

Minimum casting value is 3+ no matter what.

It says in the magic section of the rulebook.

The Red Scourge
19-10-2009, 09:49
VC are fun.

They do have some strengths that can be exploited to some degree - against some armies a ridiculous degree - but in general they're just a fun army with loads of cool gothic horror stuff like ghosts, zombies and hordes of rattling skeletons.

Just try and evaluate each game. If your list performed as planned, and your opponent couldn't force you to rethink your strategies and improvise, then you just need to adjust your list a little both to provide a challenge and fun for yourself and your opponent. In general its mostly the super casty lord builds people have a problem with.

Ixquic
19-10-2009, 15:01
VC special characters are what gets annoying to me but luckily we don't play with special characters often at all. Alot of armies can do builds that are no fun so as long as your not a person who plays cut throat for the win and is able to tone down your own list if you see bits your friends can't handle i see no reason stopping you from playing any army.

Bwah? VC special characters are absolutely horrible with the exception of Count Mannfred and he's almost 600 points once you trick him out which at typical point levels is a bit much on one character unless he's a Greater Demon. He's good but not BROKEN good (not sure how anyone can think he's that amazing with the likes of Teclis, Kairos and Viltch around). Not sure how young Mannfred is that great with no armor, T4 and a magic item you have to be in combat to get a benefit from (not where he wants to be). Knowing the full lore is cool but not super amazing when he has 2 dice...

Don't use that Swedish system (not going to say more and start another argument since some people get personally offended if you criticize it and it will derail this thread). Just don't take obviously broken stuff like the Grave Guard bunker plus Helm of Command, or Red Fury with the Dreadlance, 7+ Wraith units, etc. It's pretty easy to spot what isn't fun to play against and VC isn't an inherently broken book where every list is outrageous. However it has stuff that you just shouldn't bring outside an uncomped tournament if you want to keep playing against people.

If you bring a middle range list and people bitch it's their problem. I have dwarf players habitually complain about how cheesy Vampires are and I look at their list and they are always the same. Their important units are immune to fear and stubborn, they have 2 organ guns, 4+ war machines, and they have 8+ dispel dice, scrolls and negatives to casting. I should be complaining about THEM as I slowly march across the field getting shot up and my magic phase getting shut down while their movement phase is non existant and thinking is kept to a minimum. Some people have no perspective.

The SkaerKrow
19-10-2009, 15:38
Alexos, it sounds like you'll be fine. Build an army that you want to play, and play it. If it turns out that your army is somehow over the top, you can always make changes later in order to make it more interesting to play as/against.

Haravikk
19-10-2009, 17:05
Can invocation be dispelled normally? Surely to combat an army spamming one spell all you really need is a destructive dispel item, which I know several armies have, not sure if all do though I suppose? Just take several of them, and you can not only dispel the attempts, but potentially remove the spell completely, which ought to solve that problem quite nicely :)

Or just take a ton of regular dispel scrolls to prevent the attempts until you can position units to strike at the spell-caster. Solid scouts and fast distraction units (charge to delay) can open up most targets, allowing you to get poisoned or killing-blow attacks in on them. I know vampire counts can get themselves saves, ward-saves, and regeneration as well with some item choices, but if you can spam them with poisoned or killing-blow attacks then that won't matter for long :)

Obviously these armies can still seem overpowered, but a good player should still be able to nullify the advantages quite happily using various tricks. Unless you're in a situation where you don't know what army your opponent is going to field, then all you need is to be prepared, and you can still kick some undead rotting butt :P

For an army to truly be overpowered it'd have to be practically the same as your army but with each unit half the cost :P

The SkaerKrow
19-10-2009, 17:24
What you're suggesting, Haravikk, is list tailoring. That's generally considered to be bad form in just about every gaming club that I've attended, so for many people it's out of the question.

Truth be told, those sorts of special considerations only tend to come up when players run gimmicky or spam army lists (such as gunlines, some Dragon armies, maxed-out magical lists, etc), so if players avoid those sorts of armies for pick-up games, no tailoring is required.

Tokamak
19-10-2009, 18:36
If you pick the units you like, and not the ones you think are the hardest, you'll be fine.

YTY
19-10-2009, 19:28
VC are fine if you just avoid the craziest combos, which basically are:

- Drakenhoff on Grave guard or big blood knight unit
- Red fury + dreadlance
- over 10PD invocation-spam (IMO over 10PD is fine if you don't use the vampire lore for the lord, sadly i dont see many ppl doing this)

Other than that, I think the rest is OK. The vampire list is awesome as you can design very different armies. (Ethereal vampires, anyone?) The skills are very different and fun so I say that you should go with vampires.

Yeah, I don't play vampires but my regular opponent plays them. I myself play against them with my WE, Dwarfs and WoC.

Maoriboy007
19-10-2009, 20:18
All VC special characters are pretty naff. Manfredd is a powerful magic user , but not compared to many other wizard SC's. He's also too expensive and vulnerable, theres not much I can do with him that I cant do cheaper with a custom built generic Lord. The other SC Charactrs are pretty terrible and overpriced compared to normal characters, the MAnfred Hero is the best of the lot if you don't mind paying a lord cost for a hero wizard.

I don't get this hate for Bloodknights, If I were facing them, I'd be thanking my opponant for the free points, I never use them (even though I bought the models) and unless playing huge point battles, probably never will. They're just expensive Khorne knights with a weaker armour save and costing a rare slot. Dog Killers and Bird chasers but not much more than that vs any general who knows what he's doing.

Haravikk
19-10-2009, 20:26
What you're suggesting, Haravikk, is list tailoring. That's generally considered to be bad form in just about every gaming club that I've attended, so for many people it's out of the question.
Depends on the games I suppose, if you're just playing drop-in games then sure, tailoring the army will just take up a ton of time you could spend playing, but if it's an arranged game and all players know what the other players are using, then tailoring is fine I think, as it can be fun trying to come up with a unit mix that is better suited to clobbering some wood-elves or whatever.

If you're going to be playing a game where you have no idea what you're really going to be up against, or you just want a single list to use for every game, then some dispel items and/or good scouts are practically a must anyway. If you play an army with poison-attack or killing-blow scouts then you'd be crazy not to have them as they're great fun, and pretty effective if you place them well.
Likewise with an army that can have fast-cavalry, or cheaper quick units then it's always good to have something fast-moving and potentially expendable for locking enemy units in combat for a turn, or luring pesky bodyguards out of the way.

Lordy
19-10-2009, 20:30
The worst thing i find playing against vampire counts is a Vampire character in a blood knights unit with the sword that brings back a blood knight for every wound he causes, it's rediculous, that along with Invoc makes for an invincible unit that can kill anything in combat.

Sons of Blight
19-10-2009, 20:44
I play vc and I dont believe they are over powered at all - I only won once so far and lost 4 - I play against an all mounted Warriors of Chaos army - I really like zombies however the fact that the zombies are bigger then my other models makes me not use them so I am all skeletons and ghouls which look great - Very fun army - Maybe read the Vampire Wars and do a theme based army.

Leo85
19-10-2009, 22:08
I just got that book today is it any good? And yah putting a VL in BK is kinda iffy since he can be kitted around with the BK.

Malorian
19-10-2009, 22:44
Play whatever your want.

Eventually all armies go through the cycle of being powerful or weak and all you can do is play it out while using the army you love.

Brother Alexos
19-10-2009, 23:32
@Tokamak, Nuf said, I love the skellies, zombies, and just for the look of it, ONE Necromancer on nightmare