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CoolKidRoc
19-10-2009, 03:51
Ok, so I won a little tourney yesterday and got some extra store credit and all they had were some GK Termies, so I picked them up. I've been interested in a GK army for a while, and a little of a SoB army, but I just don't know where to go with it or how to start. What do you guys think?

Strikerkc
19-10-2009, 04:23
I'd say not to mess around with an inquisition army unless you're really gung-ho about a GK or a sisters force, or have a ton of extra cash just laying about.

One of the main problems you'll run into is that all their stuff is "old", and by that I mean old rules. They all have some variation of space marine or imperial guard equipment, except the inquisition have an overpriced (or underpowered) version. :(

The way most folks solve this is by adding a ton of IG alies to a list, but then you're really better off just having an IG army and adding the sisters or GK alies you like.

Creeping Dementia
19-10-2009, 04:27
Pure Mech Sisters performs very well, and Sisters with some guard allies isn't bad. I havent really seen any good Sisters/GK builds that perform consistently well (except maybe a GK Inq with Mystics in with pure Sisters).

I'm not too up to date on GK tactics so once you go heavier in that direction I get lost, but if they mix too much then their strengths really get diluted (not enough Faith for Sisters etc.).

Codsticker
19-10-2009, 04:29
One of the main problems you'll run into is that all their stuff is "old", and by that I mean old rules. They all have some variation of space marine or imperial guard equipment, except the inquisition have an overpriced (or underpowered) version. :(

The way most folks solve this is by adding a ton of IG alies to a list, but then you're really better off just having an IG army and adding the sisters or GK alies you like.

Pretty much all that needs to be said.

Edonil
19-10-2009, 04:31
I run a pure Sisters mechanized force with an attached Grey Knight Terminator squad, and am going to experiment with adding a Power Armored Grey Knight unit (I'm mixing things up looking for a dedicated objective holder squad) and it's been immensely successful, becoming one of the more effective armies here locally. It is expensive, but from a modeling perspective, I can't think of any army that is as rewarding to paint, but that's my opinion. If you'd like, I can post up the generics of my list to give you an idea of how you can merge them.

CoolKidRoc
19-10-2009, 04:42
I run a pure Sisters mechanized force with an attached Grey Knight Terminator squad, and am going to experiment with adding a Power Armored Grey Knight unit (I'm mixing things up looking for a dedicated objective holder squad) and it's been immensely successful, becoming one of the more effective armies here locally. It is expensive, but from a modeling perspective, I can't think of any army that is as rewarding to paint, but that's my opinion. If you'd like, I can post up the generics of my list to give you an idea of how you can merge them.

Yes Please, I'm still trying to get an idea of the different builds and how things work. To see if I should even go down this route.

Cypher, the Emperor
19-10-2009, 04:47
Triple Exorcist rain of death is always good. Cannonesses are awesome.
Plus you can take Marbo and Straken now too!

Juggalo
19-10-2009, 05:02
An effective Inquisition army is one that doesn't use any Inquisition stuff, except maybe a DHI with two mystics.

You can't take Straken/Marbo AND exorcists in the same list, short of using multiple detachments.

Chem-Dog
19-10-2009, 05:02
Don't overlook the abilities granted by SOB acts of faith, it's easy to stack them up in a viable build and several of them can be absolute battle winners (imagine something near to 20 Bs 4 bolters rapid firing with AP1 or a 3+ inv save).

Edonil
19-10-2009, 05:11
My list consists of a Canoness, with 8 Celestians and a Priest, mounted in a Repressor (FW rhino variant), that have a heavy flamer, meltagun, and a Vet. with Eviscerator. Grey Knight Grandmaster with 5 Terminators with psycannon. Four Troop choices, consisting of three squads of Sisters in Rhinos, two with flamers, one with melta, and switching a ten woman Sister squad with ten Grey Knights in my next run of the list. No Fast Attack, no Elite. Two Exorcists. The list runs quick, and the Terminators and Celestians make some extremely effective combat units.

The list has 6 Faith Points, which is fairly low for me (at one point in time, I had 11 Faith Points) and I was running in the previous list a squad of seraphim and ten Sisters with boltguns who were there just to hold objectives. Unfortunately, the seraphim weren't helping me any, and the points from the seraphim and sisters were enough to grab the PA GK.

Strikerkc
19-10-2009, 05:13
A sisters army with added GK and IG is best, if you're going to go ahead and do it.

And a sister's army may not take marbo as part of their allies. There's a very specific list of what units may be taken.

CushionRide
19-10-2009, 05:16
One of the main problems you'll run into is that all their stuff is "old", and by that I mean old rules. They all have some variation of space marine or imperial guard equipment, except the inquisition have an overpriced (or underpowered) version. :(

ok my first question is, by "old" what the heck do you mean by that? didnt they make books for them by 4th edition? maybe not. :P

as for the overpriced and underpowered bit, in alot of cases i have to agree.

the grey knights have been a contriversy ever since the deamonhunters were developed. some say there over powered for being just 10 pts more than a standard marine. others say there drawbacks balance them out. my opinion. there over powered. :/ sure they cant use transports.... sort of. sure they have no heavy weapon options. but lets think about the advantages, str 6 Close combat, true grit with storm bolters. they get storm bolters for every guy, they each have psychic hoods built into there armor, there other disadvantages deem toward fighting demons :P and as for the transport disadvantage, use land raiders, or walk alot :P, o yea that and dreads takes care of the lack of heavy support.

sisters of battle, there marine chicks in carapace armor more or less, last i saw they got a 4+ save and could only use meltas and flamers for spec and heavy weps. there vehicles are the same way, no options.

mind you the deamon hunters and inquisition armies are geared more for fluff battles. there models do look cool though

CoolKidRoc
19-10-2009, 05:17
A sisters army with added GK and IG is best, if you're going to go ahead and do it.

And a sister's army may not take marbo as part of their allies. There's a very specific list of what units may be taken.

I was under the assumption that a Sisters or DH army could not take 2 different allies, IE IG and DH if you're sisters or, SM and Sisters if you're DH.

But you could if you're playing IG or SM, take both Sisters and DH.

Edonil
19-10-2009, 05:23
I was under the assumption that a Sisters or DH army could not take 2 different allies, IE IG and DH if you're sisters or, SM and Sisters if you're DH.

But you could if you're playing IG or SM, take both Sisters and DH.

The way the allies system works is that WH and DH are limited to select from IG or SM, and the other Inquisition book. So, you can take a WH army, with IG platoons, and a DH unit. And to the person who thought that Sisters have carapace armor- what are you smoking? Have you ever read the WH book? They've had power armor since they were made (as far as I'm aware).

Tomalock
19-10-2009, 05:24
The first rule of a DH army is be prepared to lose every game. If you accept that mentality then it becomes a very rewarding list as the wins mean that much more and the losses aren't as hard. There are some really fun options you can take, but fun usually equates to high point costs, high kill points, or limited effectiveness.

For example, at one time I ran 9 Deathcult assassions. It was a blast having them run at the enemy as they had to be targeted individually in shooting and in combat. However at the same time they also cost 360 points and are 9 kill points in your elite section alone. The calladius is a complete badass and will almost always kill her target, but once its dead usually she follows suit.

If you have even mediocre painting skills a Grey Knight army will be the nicest looking force in the area. The ability to take allies gives you some pretty extensive liscense to adopt an army wide paint scheme with units that would not normally sport the Inquisition colors and symbols.

All in all, I love my DH forces and I don't see myself stopping any time soon. However, I lose far more than I win so when I go to tournys I almost always aim for the Best Paint catagory (and have won the last 2 RTTs in that department) as its usually the best chance I have of walking away with anything. If you are willing to take a beating but field a cool looking army with neat choices then DH is certainly worth a look! I never get bored fielding new types and varients. I have done everything from a footslogging GK force to a 5 Land Raider list and am working on a list that features the IG heavily. Before you know it you'll be able to field one of the most diverse apocolypse forces of anyone around!

djinn8
19-10-2009, 05:31
I've not been playing my Sisters army very long, but so far I've been doing pretty well with them. Well enough to say that my list is effective anyway. This is what it looks like:

Cannoness (Inferno, B-Weapon, Cloak, Book, Frags)

Celestian Retinue:
------Veteran Superior (Power Weapon, Bolt Pistol)
------5x Celestians (Imagifer, H-Flamer, Melta, Repressor, EA)

Battle Sister Squad 1:
------Veteran Sister (Combi Flamer, Bolt Pistol, CCW, Frags, Book)
------9x Sisters (Melta, H-Flamer, Rhino, EA)

Battle Sister Squad 2:
------Veteran Sister (Combi Melta, Bolt Pistol, CCW, Frags, Book)
------9x Sisters (Melta, H-Flamer, Rhino, EA)

Battle Sister Squad 3:
-------Veteran Sister (Combi Crossbow, Bolt Pitol, CCW, Frags, Book)
-------9x Sisters (Melta, H-Flamer, Rhino, EA)

Seraphim Squad:
-------Veteran Superior (Master Crafted Evicerator, Book)
-------8x Seraphim (2x Hand Flamer)

Exorcist
Exorcist

Edonil
19-10-2009, 05:32
Pure Daemonhunters are a rough army to play. They have a lot of stuff running against them, but pure Witch Hunters have a number of viable tactics still.

elcid03
19-10-2009, 06:05
Both =I= books got an indirect buff with the new IG book. The ability to take heavy weapons squads in guard infantry platoons shores up some of the long range firepower issues that =I= has. The new Leman Russ battle tank is a little better now too.

Battle Sisters are quite good for what you pay for them (points wise....quite expensive $$$). They can pull off the short ranged firefight almost as well as the Grey Hunters that many people are currently moaning about. The inability to load up on plasma was once seen as a liability, but in 5th ed the flamer and melta are king, and the sisters have no trouble loading up on these.

Exorcists are also quite sick if you can manage to roll well for the initial shots.

In short, battle sisters backed up with a guard platoon and exorcists will provide a solid take all comers army. It will not destroy all that is before it 100% of the time, but with practice it will be a respectable list that should never attract cries of 'cheese'

Juggalo
19-10-2009, 07:12
Don't overlook the abilities granted by SOB acts of faith, it's easy to stack them up in a viable build and several of them can be absolute battle winners (imagine something near to 20 Bs 4 bolters rapid firing with AP1 or a 3+ inv save).
Faith abilities are neat, but you are overstating their power.

It's not 20 bolters rapid firing with AP1, just the ones that roll a 6 to wound. And the bigger the squad, the less likely you are to get off that 3++ power. I've said it before, and I'll say it again... faith is a way to compensate for the fact that Sisters are glorified veteran guardsmen. They aren't helped by the fact that they come from 2 editions ago, where the STC for holsters and weapon slings hadn't been found/was temporarily lost, and you had to purchase even the most rudimentary equipment like frag grenades separately.

Edonil
19-10-2009, 07:20
Faith abilities are neat, but you are overstating their power.

It's not 20 bolters rapid firing with AP1, just the ones that roll a 6 to wound. And the bigger the squad, the less likely you are to get off that 3++ power. I've said it before, and I'll say it again... faith is a way to compensate for the fact that Sisters are glorified veteran guardsmen. They aren't helped by the fact that they come from 2 editions ago, where the STC for holsters and weapon slings hadn't been found/was temporarily lost, and you had to purchase even the most rudimentary equipment like frag grenades separately.

Why would you take 20 Battle Sisters? :wtf: And I can honestly say that I have rarely, if ever, used Spirit of the Martyr on regular Sisters. Proper use of Faith Points depends a lot on your list and the situation, but the Canoness and retinue I described has Litanies of Faith (no, I didn't mention it before, sorry), and so for the turn that they need it, they have the invulnerable save. And the most effective use of the AP1 Faith Point I've had is a battle Sister squad popping out of a Rhino in front of a Death Guard squad, double tapping and hitting them with dual flamers, and killing all of them. On average, I manage to drop two or three more marines than usual by using that Test of Faith. The Sisters have a steep learning curve, and rely on a lot of luck to get their Faith Tests off, but they are an incredibly effective army, especially for a 3.5 edition book.

Epicenter
19-10-2009, 07:22
ok my first question is, by "old" what the heck do you mean by that? didnt they make books for them by 4th edition? maybe not. :P

They're both 3rd edition codexes.


the grey knights have been a contriversy ever since the deamonhunters were developed. some say there over powered for being just 10 pts more than a standard marine. others say there drawbacks balance them out. my opinion. there over powered. :/ sure they cant use transports.... sort of. sure they have no heavy weapon options. but lets think about the advantages, str 6 Close combat, true grit with storm bolters. they get storm bolters for every guy, they each have psychic hoods built into there armor, there other disadvantages deem toward fighting demons :P and as for the transport disadvantage, use land raiders, or walk alot :P, o yea that and dreads takes care of the lack of heavy support.

I'd have to disagree with this assessment - try the army out sometime. They have some pretty crippling drawbacks. Massed Stormbolters are fearsome, yes. But it's hard to mass them when GKs cost so much more than standard Space Marines. The basic problem with GKs is that they're paying a lot of points for abilities they don't use that often or don't do them much good anymore. GKTs are a better value - GKs in Power Armor are pretty badly overpriced.

GK Land Raiders are nowhere near as good as current Space Marine ones due to their awful Machine Spirit rules. And really...putting your lascannons on Dreadnoughts is a bad idea. While a lot of people don't have much use for lascannons these days, GKs lack other AV and crushing HS choices that'd replace dreads or LRs like Vindicators and so on.


sisters of battle, there marine chicks in carapace armor more or less, last i saw they got a 4+ save and could only use meltas and flamers for spec and heavy weps. there vehicles are the same way, no options.

Sisters are somewhere inbetween IG and Space Marines. Power armor saves (they were 4+ in second ed, I believe) and BS4 but most of their other stats are Imperial Guard statline (including the painful S3 and T3).

People make a lot of hay about Sisters costing very little, but they're really not that cheap at all. Their basic troops might not cost much for the basic model, but their costs for upgrading items is astronomical. A standard Battle Sisters squad with a heavy flamer and meltagun, a vet sergeant equivalent with a bolter and an item that gives the squad stubborn, and a Rhino runs you around 215 points or so - that's not really that outrageously cheap (in fact, you could make a SW Grey Hunters squad for that many points that'd probably beat the Sisters squad every single time).

To make a long story short, both Inquisitional armies are severely overpriced in most areas. Balance in 40k is loose enough so that both armies (especially Sisters) can still compete, but they're still a pretty sharp learning curve.

CoolKidRoc
19-10-2009, 15:05
What about using DH and SoB as Allies for SMs does that seem to work better?

Asymmetric
19-10-2009, 15:57
GK Land Raiders are nowhere near as good as current Space Marine ones due to their awful Machine Spirit rules. And really...putting your lascannons on Dreadnoughts is a bad idea. While a lot of people don't have much use for lascannons these days, GKs lack other AV and crushing HS choices that'd replace dreads or LRs like Vindicators and so on.



GK landraiders gained the same machine spirit rules as the marine ones as per the 5th edition daemonhunters FAQs.

In fact daemonhunters have one interesting trick they can do list building wise, they can make the best landraider armys of doom. They can take 8 landraiders in the FOC slots from HQ, Elite and HS and given their extremely cheap troop minium requirements in stormtroopers and inquisitors.

You can easily fit 5 landraiders into 1,500 points.

Not saying it's a smart or fun army, but no one ever tailors their list to fight this kind of list. Screwed if you run into a horde mind.

mdauben
19-10-2009, 17:08
ok my first question is, by "old" what the heck do you mean by that?
Mainly what it means is that all the stuff that they share with the SM (Rhinos, Land Raiders, Storm Shields, etc.) are based on the old SM codex. This means that they are genrealy overpriced and inferior to the same things in the new SM codex.


my opinion. there over powered. :/
I don't know anyone who has played DH, and few people who have played against DH who think they are overpowered. The overwhelming majority opinion is that despite the individual strength of some of their units, the list overall is one of the weakest in the game.


there other disadvantages deem toward fighting demons :P
Actually, I find most of their advantages (esp. wargear) are focused on fighting daemons and are useless of less effective against other armies.


and as for the transport disadvantage, use land raiders,
At four or five times the cost of a Rhino. SM can also deep strike their troop choices (Drop Pods) without losing their status as scoring units like GK do (teleport option)


or walk alot :P,
And get shot to pieces before they can use those wonderful CC abilities. :rolleyes:


o yea that and dreads takes care of the lack of heavy support.
DH have dreads and LRs for AT support. Period. SM have the same thing, plus heavy weapons in their tac squads, melta weapons in tac squads, dev squads, predators, etc. and even the dreads and LRs are arguably better in the new SM codex.

The Red Scourge
21-10-2009, 14:24
Back on track guys. The question wasn't whether the Inquisition was any good, but how to go about fielding them :)


Ok, so I won a little tourney yesterday and got some extra store credit and all they had were some GK Termies, so I picked them up. I've been interested in a GK army for a while, and a little of a SoB army, but I just don't know where to go with it or how to start. What do you guys think?

First and foremost, I'd say the Inquisition is all about looking good. You've got the Grey Knights, which are the ultimate badasses made from the emperors own flesh. Shiny armor, storm bolters, purity seals all over, these guys will make any other elite warrior look like a sniveling recruit.

To make them look even better - and not end up being just another chapter of 'space boys' - you've got the imperial storm troopers. They're the cream of the crop of the imperial guard, and they're there to die just to make your shiny knights look even more heroic - they've got other functions too, like keeping pedestrians out of harms way etc., but nothing more important than looking weak compared to the GKs.

If this wasn't enough, you've also got the Inquisitors, men and women that makes any imperial commisar look like your sweet ol' granny with a bag of bonbons. With a motley crue of mystics, gunservitors and all sorts of stuff, they provide you with a great centrepiece for your army. More often a firebase than a CC unit - but no reason to get torn to shreds, when you've got GKs better equipped and trained at wielding sharp sticks.

And best of all the Inquisitor brings along the shady types of the officio assassinorum, the best the imperium has to offer as agents of death - beyond orbital bombardment.

So to sum it up. You field them because of their immense coolness factor. With a decent paint job, your opponent will concede before the first shot is fired, overcome by pure awesomeness :cool:

CoolKidRoc
28-10-2009, 20:24
Back on track guys. The question wasn't whether the Inquisition was any good, but how to go about fielding them :)



First and foremost, I'd say the Inquisition is all about looking good. You've got the Grey Knights, which are the ultimate badasses made from the emperors own flesh. Shiny armor, storm bolters, purity seals all over, these guys will make any other elite warrior look like a sniveling recruit.

To make them look even better - and not end up being just another chapter of 'space boys' - you've got the imperial storm troopers. They're the cream of the crop of the imperial guard, and they're there to die just to make your shiny knights look even more heroic - they've got other functions too, like keeping pedestrians out of harms way etc., but nothing more important than looking weak compared to the GKs.

If this wasn't enough, you've also got the Inquisitors, men and women that makes any imperial commisar look like your sweet ol' granny with a bag of bonbons. With a motley crue of mystics, gunservitors and all sorts of stuff, they provide you with a great centrepiece for your army. More often a firebase than a CC unit - but no reason to get torn to shreds, when you've got GKs better equipped and trained at wielding sharp sticks.

And best of all the Inquisitor brings along the shady types of the officio assassinorum, the best the imperium has to offer as agents of death - beyond orbital bombardment.

So to sum it up. You field them because of their immense coolness factor. With a decent paint job, your opponent will concede before the first shot is fired, overcome by pure awesomeness :cool:

haha, thanks for the pep talk :D

I actually threw a test army together at 1,750 pts using my buddies marines and playing against his nids. I don't think it was actually that fair, I won the game in KPs on the first run and then wiped him off the board the second game. I guess running 3 land raiders 2 10 man squads of pure firepower GKs and some termies isn't that bad.

Next time I'll try against his SM prolly, I like the heavy flamers on the Grey Knights and Termies but people seem to like the psycannons more, any reason?

Edonil
28-10-2009, 21:16
The psycannon is a heavy bolter that can fire on the move, and denies invulnerable saves. This is always a good thing. What'd you use?

mdauben
28-10-2009, 21:18
I guess running 3 land raiders 2 10 man squads of pure firepower GKs and some termies isn't that bad.
Sounds more like a LR list than a DH list. :p Anyway, your Nid opponent probably would have had as much trouble with a similar SM list that would have cost fewer points. Plus, you list would have faired much more poorly against a list with better anti-tank firepower than the Nids.


I like the heavy flamers on the Grey Knights and Termies but people seem to like the psycannons more, any reason?
Range. Psycannon has better range and the rapid fire/assault option depending on if you are moving or standing and shooting is nice. Personally, I do like the Incinerator in GK Termi squads, which I play more in-your-face than my GK "tac" squads. I also like dual Incinerators in my GK teleport squads as they can get in among the enemy lines and start shooting quickly.

Writerski7
30-10-2009, 05:43
Take a shooty WH Inquisitor with a Vindicare Assassin and add that to a SM or IG force using the Allies special rule. Keep the points cost low (mines at 250) since they're going to be a 'same yet seperate' part of your force. Good for:

-Anti-character duty
-Messing up people's plans
-fire magnet
-fodder
-being a general pain in the a**
-lots of laughs

(Not responsible for improper strategic use or player idiocracy)

fdesrochers
30-10-2009, 10:54
The first rule of a DH army is be prepared to lose every game.

This is a pretty gross oversimplification - you could draw this supposition to all armies and come out with some cathartic benefit from any win you achieve....

Like any army the efficacy is based on the synergies you derive from your unit selections and in-game play (a little more delicate with DH than WH or most other armies out there with **current** codices). The DE are probably the closest example; they are terribly functional when balanced just so, combined with good in-game play.

I play a Malleus army (mix of GK and Inquisitor units) that looks very unassuming on paper; it's balanced just the way I need to be effective and get the wins, including against some of the more ridiculous tourney-level armies (Vulkan drop pods, Seer-Council o Doom, Nob Bikers, Nurgle Daemons, Nidzilla, you name it) and gotten that self-same cathartic affect; not to mention some truly stunned opponents.

The SoB rules still work rather well within 5th edition and may be better stand-alone to max out the Faith points - otherwise ally them into IG, SM or even DH just fine. The DH codex works stand-alone (this goes against popular sentiments) - it certainly gains from allying SM or inducting IG to make up for anti-tank and numbers.

My 1700 and 2000 point lists (plus or minus some wargear) follow. Again, no paper tigers to look at but they work:

1700
- Inquisitor Lord w/ psycannon, psyhood, retinue w/ 3 x HB, sage, 2 x mystics
- BC Stern, 4 x GKT w/ psycannon
- Callidus
- IST x 6 w/ 2 x flamers, Rhino w/ EA, smoke
- IST x 10 w/ 2 x plasmaguns
- PAGK x 8 w/ incinerator
- GK Dread w/ lascannon, incinerator, smoke
- GK Dread w/ lascannon, incinerator, smoke
- GK LR w/ smoke

2000
- Inquisitor Lord w/ psycannon, psyhood, retinue w/ 3 x HB, sage, 2 x mystics, LR w/ smoke
- BC Stern, 4 x GKT w/ psycannon
- Callidus
- IST x 6 w/ 2 x flamers, Rhino w/ EA, smoke
- IST x 10 w/ 2 x plasmaguns
- PAGK x 8 w/ incinerator
- GK Dread w/ lascannon, incinerator, smoke
- GK Dread w/ lascannon, incinerator, smoke
- GK LRC w/ smoke

;francois

KingDeath
30-10-2009, 11:35
People see the WS5 / +2 strenght of standard Grey Knights and think that they are a close combat army. This is wrong. If you play them this way then they are indeed overpriced. First read the Way of the Waterwarrior guide from Bolter and Chainsword to get an idea of what Grey Knights offer you.

Dont forget your shrouding ability. Often it can be more usefull to stay at the full 24 inch ( equip yourJusticar with a targeter to measure distance ) and use your stormbolters. Mini Purgation squads with 2 psycanons can be usefull as well against everything that rellies on 4+ armoursaves or any kind of invul safe. Use your landraiders. Grey Knights have some serious anti armour issues and your raiders are the best chance to compensate. Ressist the temptation of always going for the Grandmaster. A captain with Psycanon in a Termisquad ( which can have 2 more psycanons :) ) can be an extremly powerfull hq.

So, to make it short. In order to play a somewhat sucessfull Grey Knights army you have to be able to utilize their abilities. Stormbolters and the Shrouding against strong cc armies, their good close combat abilities against enemies which outshoot you. Keep in mind that you can use Guard/ Sisters
allies for extra bodies.

Aubec le noir
02-11-2009, 09:00
after a WE thinking...
to me what makes an effective inquisition Army is :

the player's knowledge of this army

explanations :

yes this army is not what you can call a top notch army, but it has its forces (and its weaknesses of course) and it's an "old" army and an expensive army too. So in general the players of this army are older players (that means with money to buy metal minis and so on, but also more "tactical players" or "wargames players") and they play it for a long time and know it very well (including those known weaknesses too)

finally those players can extract what is the best of this army and be adversaries that you can't underestimate (which is always an error of course ;) )

Aubec :chrome:

CoolKidRoc
02-11-2009, 16:41
Thanks guys, yall have opened my eyes quite a bit. One of the reasons I love warseer so much, lots and lots of knowledge tha can then be extracted and poured into my brain ;)

So the new question is how do you make an effect all comers army using SM with GK allies :D

After lots of thinking and running through the web and everything else I've thought how cool it would be to run a Red Hunters SM Chapter with GK allies and an Inquisitor in there.

I'm having trouble thinking of making it effective, but I'm sure there is a way. :D Any thoughts?

Blizzinam
02-11-2009, 17:12
If your going to take an Inquisitor, take an assassin. You wont regret it.

CoolKidRoc
02-11-2009, 17:21
Lol, but which assasin?

Thud
02-11-2009, 17:23
Daemonhunters - 1,750 points

Grey Knight Brother-Captain

3x Inquisitor w/ Familiar mounted in a Land Raider

2x 5 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers

2x Grey Knight Land Raider Crusader

Grey Knight Land Raider


1,750 points, 6 Land Raiders. Enjoy! :p

The Red Scourge
02-11-2009, 17:50
haha, thanks for the pep talk :D

No prob. People here are waaay too concerned with having the ultimate army, often forgetting its all about having the coolest army with the most options that is fun to play.

I really see no fun in dumping 7 land raiders on the table and try to convince people that its an army :rolleyes:

Thud
02-11-2009, 17:53
I really see no fun in dumping 7 land raiders on the table and try to convince people that its an army :rolleyes:

Come on! You can't say that six Land Raiders in a 1,750 point list isn't cool! :p

CoolKidRoc
02-11-2009, 17:58
Come on! You can't say that six Land Raiders in a 1,750 point list isn't cool! :p

It's the buying 6 or 7 or even 8 Land Raiders that's hard to do :P

Flypaper
07-11-2009, 13:18
They can take 8 landraiders in the FOC slots from HQ, Elite and HSSeven max. One HQ (Inquisitor Lord, 0-1), Three Elite Inquisitors w/retinues, and three HS. Remember that the Inquisitor ones don't get machine spirits...

Lol, but which assasin? Eversor are the most cost-efficient, but if you're going with a lot of inducted IG fire support then a Callidus is nice for their ability to drag an enemy unit out of cover.

...Culexuses are a bit too specialised, and Vindicareses just don't kill enough in any given game. Nice for picking out Chaos Icons, and you have a good shot at killing a single vehicle with his turbo-penetrator round, but otherwise overpriced and underperforming. Cool, though.

CoolKidRoc
07-11-2009, 15:27
Seven max. One HQ (Inquisitor Lord, 0-1), Three Elite Inquisitors w/retinues, and three HS. Remember that the Inquisitor ones don't get machine spirits...

Actually you can take Inquisitor Coteaz with out him counting against the 0-1 Inquisitor Lord. Allowing for that 8th Land Raider ;)

Why wouldn't the Inquisitor Ones receive machine spirit? The only rules for Land Raiders in the codex are the rules for Grey Knight Land Raiders which receive machine spirit as of the Errata/FAQ.



Eversor are the most cost-efficient, but if you're going with a lot of inducted IG fire support then a Callidus is nice for their ability to drag an enemy unit out of cover.
...Culexuses are a bit too specialised, and Vindicareses just don't kill enough in any given game. Nice for picking out Chaos Icons, and you have a good shot at killing a single vehicle with his turbo-penetrator round, but otherwise overpriced and underperforming. Cool, though.

I'd love vindicares if you had unlimited ammo of each type and not just one round. I think they would be worth there points with that fix.

Never was very interested in the Eversor, but I like the thought of the Callidus and Culexus

laudarkul
07-11-2009, 18:05
Question: What is the right number of LR's in a 1500 or 2000 pts =][= army list in order to have a friendly list? An effective inquisition army is based on couple of =][= ST squads with a squad or two of PAGK for support in my opinion.

DeadlySquirrel
07-11-2009, 22:40
for the main question, are you wanting a radical no GK list, a mixed, or an all GK list?

CoolKidRoc
07-11-2009, 23:28
for the main question, are you wanting a radical no GK list, a mixed, or an all GK list?

Thinking Mixed, maybe with Red Hunters SM as primary with GK Allies now.

noirceuil
08-11-2009, 01:14
Okay, so everybody's probably done with hearing how hosed DH is now under 5th edition and in comparison to other codex upgrades. So, I won't go there. :)

My suggestions for someone new to this army, would be to be open to experimentation. A lot will depend on your personal playing style or how flexible your tactics happen to be.

Based on their design, when pitted 1 on 1 with a standard SM, a GKiPA is supposed to have the advantage. WS5 S6(with NFW) given them the edge when pitted against a SM tactical unit or even an assault unit (if not led by a Chaplain).

However, most opponents will have the tactical acumen to avoid facing you on such a obviously disadvantaged footing. They will use multiple units in unison to concentrate fire on your GKiPA unit (or GKT unit) and winnow down the unit's numbers until a CC encounter will either be stacked against you or on more even footing.

Deepstriking sounds cool, but tactically; there is too much left to chance unless you incorporate certain things. Teleport homers help. Accessing the lay of the terrain and utilizing what I like to call "mobile terrain" in the form of rhinos can help keep your teleporting unit from being shredded apart when they land.

Careful utilization of assassins like the Callidus, Eversor, or DCAs can help as well. I speak from personal experience when I say, it will take some practice and many unfortunate game sequences involving these units being waxed off the table by overwhelming bodies in CC or enemy fire in your opponent's shooting phase.

Consider assassins a precision tool, rather than a blunt instrument.

To unlock the assassin of your choice, just take an Elite inquisitor. Spend the minimum points and attach it to an IST unit. If points allow, give it a teleport homer or some special weaponry to take down high toughness infantry or armour.


IMHO, the GK hero is a far better HQ choice than the IL. S6 T4 beats out S3 T3. By the time you trick out that IL and retinue, the points cost will be difficult to win back. However, a GKGM with minimal retinue of 3 GKT have a far better chance of recouping their points if you can simply get them into CC range. Against any but I5 units, they will typically wipe them off the table. Add in 3 DCA or a Callidus in support and it's not even close.


The IL equivalent will simply be a novelty item good for the sake of conversation or an interesting set of conversions. They'll look cool, but fold like cheap aluminum foil.

In the 2 compulsory Troop slots, I usually would go with IST since they are cheap and they can be equipped with 2 special weapons an a rhino transport at relatively low points cost.

Under 5th edition, however; I would strongly recommend you make every attempt to field a full complement of 10 models per squad or as close to as possible, since you may have to depend on that unit to hold an objective unsupported. T3 4+ saves don't hold up as well as T4 3+/2+ saves.

GKiPA work out best in the FA slot. Whether you use psycannons or incinerators is based on your style of play and the points allowance. I've toyed with both configurations and found after you split the difference they're equally effective. If it helps, I've found that in most cases, if you deepstrike them they're going to be rather close to enemy units and in many cases those enemy units may be entrenched in cover. The incinerators ignore cover saves and are equally effective on the move or stationary. Psycannons on the other hand do not ignore cover saves (despite the arguments to the contrary) and lose range when the wielder moves. However, a lucky roll from one of them can take out an eldar skimmer!

Either way, I've found careful coordination of units is very important when utilizing DH. For example when landing your FA unit of GKiPA, it helps to have a unit of IST with their rhino (and a teleport homer) available to screen them from enemy fire until the turn they have the opportunity to move, shoot, and assault. Otherwise, you have to rely on random chance that the surrounding terrain is enough to do this.

If you need other FA options, then this is where Allies come into play. I like the efficacy of Seraphim, IG Sentinels, or SM skimmers. Of course this will depend on your choice of ally and which options work better with your own playing style.

For the Heavy slot, I find the choices are equally limited and therefore, simple.

In higher point games, get the LR. A Crusader is a must for one of your GK units to stampede out of to lay waste to enemy units in their path. Now those of us who have read the Way of the Water Warrior, know a standard lascannon LR is preferred in terms of versatility, etc. And if I hadn't already glued together a Crusader I would be fielding 2 standard LRs right now ;)

As it is, regardless of your preference; a LR is a worthwhile investment in points and money to include in your list.

If only for a moderate point cost distraction for your enemy armour, at least 1 dreadnought is good. If a low point game, a dreadnought may be the only option you have for anti-tank capability, unless you fill in with IG fielding lascannons or ditch your GK and field allied SM with all of their options.

During my more regular playing days, a typical list of mine looked like this:

HQ GK hero with retinue
add: mastercrafted weapon for the hero.
add: psycannon for the hero.
add: holocaust if points allow for hero.
add: psycannon or incinerator for the retinue.

Elite: cheap inquisitor w/ teleport homer
add: least costly weapon/wargear combo

Elite: your choice of assassin

Elite: GKT unit (if points allow)

Troop: IST w/ rhino (extra armour + smoke)
add: special weapons x2
* maximize model count in the unit.

Troop: duplicate above for total of 2 IST units mounted in rhinos

FA: GKiPA w/ at least 1 incinerator
add: mastercrafted weapon for the justicar
(it's the only power weapon in the unit. maximize hits)

Heavy: dreadnought w/ TL LC + CCW
add: incinerator (for taking out infantry)
add: extra armour and smoke

Heavy: LR if points allow

================================================== =====
I did not include points cost, due to fact the number of models per unit will vary based on overall points allowance for the game.

Above is based on a DH-only list.

Based on the changes under 5th edition combined with the new codices for SM and IG, it's almost better to field those armies with DH allies incorporated into those armies, rather than field components from those codices into a DH army.

In the case of SM, you give up being able to field GK. This is IMHO, essentially removes the efficacy of fielding a DH army. Radical Inquisitors aside, from a tactical standpoint when you weigh the options - fielding a SM army with DH allies is the better choice.

In the case of IG, you can still field GK units - but far less after reallocating points necessary to field the required IG units to unlock those heavy and FA units you opted for in the first place. And when you compare the options to what you could field under an IG army list, again; you're better off fielding an IG army list with DH allies.

I would rather be able to field the Hydra Flak cannon or Medusa siege mortar, alongside the Valkyrie Vendetta squadron and drop in a squad of GKT to help add the CC punch an IG army lacks. To add insult to injury, the IG stormtrooper squad has access to better hellguns than IST squads. "hot shot" is AP3 while a hellgun from DH codex is only AP6. And the IG stormtroopers have more tactical options to boot.

The case of allying in Witch Hunters is really compelling when considering massed units of 20 strong battle sisters with bolt guns or Seraphim (who are rather weak in CC unless facing T3 enemies). This would be an exception in my view. Of course, both the DH and WH codex are 2 of the few codices that haven't gained an upgrade. So they're equally hosed when compared to other armies. Although, WH is a more well-rounded armylist, which I know very little about from a practical in-game standpoint.

In terms of how you play DH, I would recommend you try playing to their strengths and be very cognizant of their weaknesses, which are not as apparent when you first read thru their entries in the codex. In game play, against a canny opponent; they become all too blaringly obvious.

In terms of resiliency, they're exactly the same as standard SM. T3 3+saves or 2+ for GKTs. Just because they're CC monsters (I am aware Banshees or Blood Angels as well as almost any other high initiative T4 unit, will kick their butts, so don't even bother including this or any other dispersion in a reply post) they're still vulnerable to concentrated enemy gunfire. So protect them. They cost a lot of points!

b/c of their higher point cost, you won't be able to field either as many models per unit or as many total units. Under the objective choices in edition 5 battle scenarios, this might be an advantage - but - overall, this is a constant challenge faced by DH players. You will be out flanked, out gunned, out manned. That is why you need to be twice as adept in your tactics and your knowledge of what your units can do, alone or in cooperation with other units. Also, know your enemy and their abilities and how they trump yours or how their inherent disadvantages leave openings for your army's special abilities.

What I'm trying to say above, is DH is not a forgiving army. You can't make a tactical mistake and be able to recover from it, like you could with SM or IG or any other less specialized army list. Many people write in posts that DH should never have been made into a stand alone army list. This may be true, but that's why the concept of Allies was incorporated into the codex.

Whether or not this makes DH a more viable stand alone army/codex is up to personal opinion backed up by practical in-game experience with DH.

I'm currently working on fleshing out my own SM and IG army lists. So let that statement speak for itself :D

Flypaper
08-11-2009, 01:56
Actually you can take Inquisitor Coteaz with out him counting against the 0-1 Inquisitor Lord. Allowing for that 8th Land Raider Nope, that allows for a fifth. You can't take the Heavy Support Land Raiders without a GK hero, and you're all out of HQ slots. :p


Why wouldn't the Inquisitor Ones receive machine spirit? The only rules for Land Raiders in the codex are the rules for Grey Knight Land Raiders which receive machine spirit as of the Errata/FAQ.It's still debatable whether they're the same thing, as the Inquisitor's transport isn't called a "Grey Knight Land Raider" and you're specifically forbidden from taking one of those without a GK hero, as per above.

Never was very interested in the Eversor, but I like the thought of the Callidus and CulexusI'm not a big fan of the Eversor model, so I kitbashed my own (female, to match the DCAs) out of Dark Eldar and Genestealer bits. It came out rather scrawny - but hey, she's mine and I luv her. :p

Teleport homers help.Unless your opponents insist on RAW, in which case they do absolutely nothing. :(

Under 5th edition, however; I would strongly recommend you make every attempt to field a full complement of 10 models per squad or as close to as possible, since you may have to depend on that unit to hold an objective unsupported.Honestly, against anything that counts the difference between fielding five and ten models will be minimal. If you need to keep them alive to hold an objective, keep them in a transport and never, ever disembark.

GKiPA work out best in the FA slot.PAGK are fundamentally a defensive unit. No grenades, no transports, and they get the same amount of attacks when receiving a charge as when attacking. Oh, and The Shrouding. Basically, what I'm saying is that they're optimised for the back of the board, and it seems like a huge waste to give up their ability to score just so they can deep strike.

Personally, the only time I'd take FA knights would be 5x with two Incinerators, and only if I already had two troop PAGK squads.

Juggalo
08-11-2009, 03:10
Based on their design, when pitted 1 on 1 with a standard SM, a GKiPA is supposed to have the advantage. WS5 S6(with NFW) given them the edge when pitted against a SM tactical unit or even an assault unit (if not led by a Chaplain).
Sadly, when you consider the point cost of the models (and newer varieties of SM like SW grey hunters), that actually doesn't work out in practice. PAGK should be no more than 20 points. Other ~20-25 point specialist Marine units (mostly Chaos and SW at the moment) usually can wipe the floor with them.

CoolKidRoc
08-11-2009, 14:26
Nope, that allows for a fifth. You can't take the Heavy Support Land Raiders without a GK hero, and you're all out of HQ slots. :p

It's still debatable whether they're the same thing, as the Inquisitor's transport isn't called a "Grey Knight Land Raider" and you're specifically forbidden from taking one of those without a GK hero, as per above.
I'm not a big fan of the Eversor model, so I kitbashed my own (female, to match the DCAs) out of Dark Eldar and Genestealer bits. It came out rather scrawny - but hey, she's mine and I luv her. :p
Unless your opponents insist on RAW, in which case they do absolutely nothing. :(
Honestly, against anything that counts the difference between fielding five and ten models will be minimal. If you need to keep them alive to hold an objective, keep them in a transport and never, ever disembark.
PAGK are fundamentally a defensive unit. No grenades, no transports, and they get the same amount of attacks when receiving a charge as when attacking. Oh, and The Shrouding. Basically, what I'm saying is that they're optimised for the back of the board, and it seems like a huge waste to give up their ability to score just so they can deep strike.

Personally, the only time I'd take FA knights would be 5x with two Incinerators, and only if I already had two troop PAGK squads.

Ooh... it's all those side boxes that get you screwed up in this codex :P

Well I don't know what other Land Raider they could be referring too. But even if it's the SM Land Raider you have to use the latest codex right? So that would....

Never Mind, I just remembered that there is the land raider in the Dedicated Transports Section... and when they did the errata it only says Grey Knight Land Raider and Crusader, how dumb is that!!!

KingDeath
08-11-2009, 15:12
Sadly, when you consider the point cost of the models (and newer varieties of SM like SW grey hunters), that actually doesn't work out in practice. PAGK should be no more than 20 points. Other ~20-25 point specialist Marine units (mostly Chaos and SW at the moment) usually can wipe the floor with them.

Other specialist units might wipe the floor with PAGK squads, but they can do litle else. The main strenght of PAGKs is imo their versatility. They are good at shooting and good at close combat but generaly worse than a specialised unit. The trick is to use their strenght against the enemy's weakness.

The problem here is imo that the lack of a transport option and the general codex creep as well as the extremly expensive special weapons make this a bit difficult, at least till Daemonhunters get an update. So, instead of lovering the points cost for PAGKs it might be better to just boost them a bit ( perhaps powerweapons for everyone? or a 5+ invul safe?, or something more subtile ) and just lower the price for their special weapons.

CoolKidRoc
08-11-2009, 15:32
Other specialist units might wipe the floor with PAGK squads, but they can do litle else. The main strenght of PAGKs is imo their versatility. They are good at shooting and good at close combat but generaly worse than a specialised unit. The trick is to use their strenght against the enemy's weakness.

The problem here is imo that the lack of a transport option and the general codex creep as well as the extremly expensive special weapons make this a bit difficult, at least till Daemonhunters get an update. So, instead of lovering the points cost for PAGKs it might be better to just boost them a bit ( perhaps powerweapons for everyone? or a 5+ invul safe?, or something more subtile ) and just lower the price for their special weapons.

Or maybe drop them to like 22pts and give them FNP. That along with transports at a resonable cost would help things alot. They could also use a little variety, or allow SM as allies in a GK base army. I don't see there being a lot of advantages using SM allies seeing as you can go SM base with GK allies.

Just kinda weird.

noirceuil
10-11-2009, 05:38
Sadly, when you consider the point cost of the models (and newer varieties of SM like SW grey hunters), that actually doesn't work out in practice. PAGK should be no more than 20 points. Other ~20-25 point specialist Marine units (mostly Chaos and SW at the moment) usually can wipe the floor with them.

Amen! I couldn't agree with you more. I am waiting for the revised DH codex, but who knows when (or if) that will come out?

starlight
10-11-2009, 06:29
Well I know for certain that the Ordos book will *not* be out in 2009. :D

:p

Will it be out next year...? Unlikely...but possible... GW *has* been known to give us long suffering gamers occasional happy surprises... :)

kardar233
10-11-2009, 06:41
I'm sure people have pointed this out to you before, but I didn't see a direct link to this; here's Silent Requiem's Way of the Water Warrior tactica. It's written for 4th Edition, so it'll take some adjustments, but the general idea should work.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

CoolKidRoc
11-11-2009, 03:45
I'm sure people have pointed this out to you before, but I didn't see a direct link to this; here's Silent Requiem's Way of the Water Warrior tactica. It's written for 4th Edition, so it'll take some adjustments, but the general idea should work.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=101214

Yeah I've read a good deal of the thread, but a lot of it is now not useless but kind of useless with true line of sight and the like.

But there are still some good philosophies in there.