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Dvnjhn
20-10-2009, 09:32
Is there any one else out there who is a little aggrieved that the false emperor's mundane followers get to have either Deathwing or Wolfwing, and there is not a chaos equivalent?

I for one would like some way to field a all Chaos terminator army that was not dependent on using non chaos rules. I understand that some allowances would have to be made for this, possibly even increasing the price of the terms.

Any thoughts?

Death Company
20-10-2009, 09:39
I think there are too many Terminator lists as there is, the last thing we need is the "Spikey" equivalent.

spaint2k
20-10-2009, 09:40
Use the Space Wolves codex. Their mixed armament matches that used by Chaos Terminators quite nicely.

:)

Astraeos
20-10-2009, 09:42
The only way to field an all Chaos Terminator army is to be either the attacker in Planetstrike or find a reasonable gaming buddy who won't mind you taking them as Troops once in a while. Of course there'll probably have to be something for your friend too, unless they're fielding all Terminators too.

Axis
20-10-2009, 09:59
you can get 30 terminators into a chaos army with ease anyway. its not that big a deal.

Vaktathi
20-10-2009, 10:00
you can get 30 terminators into a chaos army with ease anyway. its not that big a deal.

Only as Elites however. leaving almost no points left for troops as 30 barebones termis is 900pts already before upgrades.

fluffstalker
20-10-2009, 10:07
As Im pondering a pre heresy DG army right now I actually was thinking that since their heavy on troops and hard, slogfights, not transports, a termie heavy deep striking army theme could be great! Problem is as Vaktathi put it your kinda restricted rules wise for now for chaos.

A good option off the top of my head is that you can do some house rules as long as your running casual games, perhaps borrow the deathwing rules, invent a chaos charater equivalent to belial? At least until they release a ruleset for chaos that lets you field a termie heavy army.

Kriegschmidt
20-10-2009, 10:16
I know it's also just "an alternative" but there is a Chaos Terminator-only datasheet for Apocalypse. If you have friends who are organising an Apoc game or a local gaming club/GW store, you could arrange to take part using your Terminator force.

Link to the datasheet on GW site: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180092_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_Annihilation_Force.pdf

IJW
20-10-2009, 10:52
'Normal' Space Marines can't do it either. I'd go with house-rules if you're playing amongst friends, or Space Wolf counts-as.

sigur
20-10-2009, 12:12
The reason might be because there isn't such a thing. Deathwing should be incredibly rare either.

And just because some obscure SM chapters are allowed to field many terminators doesn't mean that chaos should be able to do it. I mean, isn't that the whole point to choosing and playing a certain army? You get advantages and drawbacks, you can do this but not that. And if you want Space Wolves, go get a Space Wolves army. How come people always feel entitled to pick out the raisins for themselves?

Mannimarco
20-10-2009, 12:16
for house games ive been using a deathwing type chaos force so take a special character (in this case either abaddon or typhus) to allow termys as troops, seems to go down well amongst the people i play against

the problem with this however is to play this army you need to invest over 200pts on a special character meaning your army will be even smaller

Death_to_the_Xenos
20-10-2009, 12:43
not all SM and Chaos are the same

if u want to field an all termie army play DA or space wolfs or create a count as

sick and tired of chaos players complaining standard marines get this so why dont we but we have to have chaos stuff in addition to standard marines :rolleyes:

Mannimarco
20-10-2009, 12:58
space wolves getting standard CSM equipment (bolter, pistol and CCW), keeping marine equipment and getting furious charge as well

dreadnoughts with parasitic possession being removed from chaos and loyalists getting ironclads

dark blades being removed from chaos and loyalists getting relic blades (pretty much the same except the relic blade doesnt kill its owner and you can ge more than one)

sick and tired of loyalists getting everything chaos used to get but was removed for being to broken and cheesy :rolleyes:

Dvnjhn
20-10-2009, 13:00
Okay, I know that not all space marine and chaos armies are not the same. All I am saying is that personally I would like too see an option of a teminator army, designed soley for Chaos.

The reason that 'there is not one, is pretty lame'. In the vast world of 40k I am sure that this sort of army would exist - not that I want to get into a debate regarding this.

I know that Chaos have extremelly good choices, which I like as I would not play them otherwise. I just think having the above mentioned army would be kind of cool.

But again this is only my opinion and I do not cry myself to sleep as there is not one. I just look forward to my Bezerkers pouring out of my spiky landraider - and raping all before them......

pookie
20-10-2009, 13:23
dark blades being removed from chaos and loyalists getting relic blades (pretty much the same except the relic blade doesnt kill its owner and you can ge more than one)


Yet you can get the Chaos equivilent - Ie Dameon Wep....

why should choas have to be identicle to Marines? just because they all ware power armour or TD doesnt mean they should.

Death_to_the_Xenos
20-10-2009, 13:29
I understand the position of chaos player that the codex got an extreme nerf in 4th edition but some of the chaos players are just want SM with additional stuff

my personal opinion is that SW shouldn't been able to field wolf guard as troop (i can understand them as a scoring unit with a certain special character)

i like to see each army have there own individual aspect that is unique to them (termies as troop for DA for example)

the problem is that people see them as being the same army just different "alignments"

i guess what i am trying to say is that they are completely different armies and they should have the same base for the army (tatical, assault, devestators, termies and vehicles) but should also have a decent amount of wargear and units that are unique to that army

eyescrossed
20-10-2009, 13:32
Yet you can get the Chaos equivilent - Ie Dameon Wep....

You're joking, right?

"Oh, hahaha! My commander just killed himself! That makes this weapon fun to use!"

:rolleyes:

Anyway, there isn't any Relic Blade equivalent Daemon Weapon, and Relic Blades can't kill the user.


EDIT: I apologize, I don't even know why I said anything like that^ when it's not even relevent.

I'm not getting enough sleep.

SylverClaw
20-10-2009, 13:53
The reason that 'there is not one, is pretty lame'. In the vast world of 40k I am sure that this sort of army would exist - not that I want to get into a debate regarding this.

You know, pretty much any mono-army would be "cool" for about three seconds. It's an empty tedious, tiresome bag of soulless nothing... boring to play, boring to fight, boring to look at.

If you could have nothing but scoring Land Raiders in your army, would you do it or want to fight it? Sure... that would be really effective but man, how completely tedious would that be from either side of the table?

As it stands you can get a 75% terminator army with Chaos. That's pretty good. Would a couple of tiny 'zerk squads kill your theme that badly?

Oh and I'm totally applying this to SM as well. Copy/Paste armies are sinful.

Kriegschmidt
20-10-2009, 14:06
*Kriegschmidt is loving the use of the word "sinful" in a forum about a wargaming hobby* :D

What you have to remember is that loyalist marines are still organised into Chapters and supported by the Imperium. In comparison, the current Codex exemplifies how Chaos marine armies have to use what/whom they can get their hands on.

Whereas a space marine Chapter will probably have a 1st Company, all adorned in Tactical Dreadnought Armour, by comparison a Chaos "warband" will likely only have as many suits of terminator armour as they have managed to steal or hold onto for the last 10,000 years.

This is why, if you just use the Chaos marines rules, you can only use Terminator-only lists in Apocalypse games or Planetstrike, which are much larger and more specialised engagements respectively, where you're more likely to see the stops pulled out.

Axis
20-10-2009, 14:16
You're joking, right?

"Oh, hahaha! My commander just killed himself! That makes this weapon fun to use!"

:rolleyes:

Anyway, there isn't any Relic Blade equivalent Daemon Weapon, and Relic Blades can't kill the user.


EDIT: I apologize, I don't even know why I said anything like that^ when it's not even relevent.

I'm not getting enough sleep.

I've killed 8 marines in one combat phase with my terminator lord wielding his daemon weapon. Was that fun? yes, yes it was. But i really think the point was that chaos and loyalist marines shouldnt get the same stuff.

Raibaru
20-10-2009, 14:16
Couldn't Thousand Sons upgrade their troops to terminator armor in a past edition? I honestly don't recall how it went. Like they were elites, able to upgrade to terminator armor, and then if you played thousand sons they were troops? /shrug.

But anyway, it would be very cool to have an all terminator army with chaos. Of course you can always do a counts as.

The Orange
20-10-2009, 14:22
Is there any one else out there who is a little aggrieved that the false emperor's mundane followers get to have either Deathwing or Wolfwing, and there is not a chaos equivalent?

Nope, not for a second. If you want to run a lot of terminators you can, whats so wrong with needing to include 2 minimum troop choices? MC heavy Tyranid lists still need to take troops (usually rippers iirc :p), and why does everyone have to steal the DA's lollipop now? I completely agree that SW should have never gotten an equivalent ability, however GW did make a termi-specific sprue for the SWs so they need to pay off that mold somehow :cheese:.

pookie
20-10-2009, 14:26
You're joking, right?

"Oh, hahaha! My commander just killed himself! That makes this weapon fun to use!"

:rolleyes:

Anyway, there isn't any Relic Blade equivalent Daemon Weapon, and Relic Blades can't kill the user.

not a direct copy no, but its a Chaos version of what is basically a super Power Wep, thats my point.



EDIT: I apologize, I don't even know why I said anything like that^ when it's not even relevent.

I'm not getting enough sleep.

go to bed then :p

Gutlord Grom
20-10-2009, 14:28
Nope, not for a second. If you want to run a lot of terminators you can, whats so wrong with needing to include 2 minimum troop choices? MC heavy Tyranid lists still need to take troops (usually rippers iirc :p), and why does everyone have to steal the DA's lollipop now? I completely agree that SW should have never gotten an equivalent ability, however GW did make a termi-specific sprue for the SWs so they need to pay off that mold somehow :cheese:.

I have to say, the Orange explains it pretty well.

Corpse
20-10-2009, 14:39
Among others in this thread I have a different take.

Berzerkers are the heavy bolter types of melee compared to terminators. Get 1 zerker in combat with 5 orks with neither side charging, and see who comes out victorious. (No I'm serious, try it). Use a terminator, and see how it ends up. You would be shocked.

Then again try a plague marine. IIRC it takes 72 lasgun shots to kill a plague marine, and 36 to remove a termi. 72/36/6/2/FNP=1 for plague marine, and 36/18/6/1=Terminator. It's equal if you make it plague icon terminators though. (+5 pts a terminator out of 10 to equalize it!~)

Why would you need a terminator troop choice in chaos? Our marines handle the assault role of masses, termies handle the armored troopers in melee.

Dvnjhn
20-10-2009, 15:11
I've killed 8 marines in one combat phase with my terminator lord wielding his daemon weapon. Was that fun? yes, yes it was. But i really think the point was that chaos and loyalist marines shouldnt get the same stuff.

Well while playing against the damned Imperial fist's my Khornate Deamon weapon hit 11 times, but alas failed to cause any wounds in one cc phase.

Gutlord Grom
20-10-2009, 15:13
Well while playing against the damned Imperial fist's my Khornate Deamon weapon hit 11 times, but alas failed to cause any wounds in one cc phase.

Oh goody, a personal anecdote fight. I'll get the popcorn.

eyescrossed
20-10-2009, 15:46
not a direct copy no, but its a Chaos version of what is basically a super Power Wep, thats my point.
A super power weapon that costs more than a Relic Blade and I would argue is worse. I see your point though.





go to bed then :p
I'm actually in bed right now, on my iPod Touch, and have been every night for a week.

Oh...

Dvnjhn
20-10-2009, 16:14
Oh goody, a personal anecdote fight. I'll get the popcorn.

Not really a small story or that entertaining, but if you want to get your popcorn out for it - then good for you.

Durath
20-10-2009, 16:18
Meh. Chaos Terms have always been painted as a rarity in the Fluff. Having no "army" of Terms and as Elites is fine by me.

Besides, we have entered the "Golden-age of Counts-As". Just put together a Wolf Guard Army and use your Chaos Terms if it bothers you.

pookie
20-10-2009, 16:18
A super power weapon that costs more than a Relic Blade and I would argue is worse. I see your point though.

i never said it was better, just as i said before a better than normal power wep. :D




I'm actually in bed right now, on my iPod Touch, and have been every night for a week.

Oh...

ah, well sleep is the next thing! :p

Mannimarco
20-10-2009, 16:29
chaos legions are all fragmented to a certain degree so its likely that terminator armour will have been scattered amongst all theses random warbands scatterer around however some legions still retain some form of unity (see black legion) and what we have to remember is the legions were huge, its highly likely some still have the capability of fielding all terminator armies

on a side note in battlefleet gothic, boarding actions carried out by a ship with abaddon on it are more dangerous as they are carried out by black legion terminators so we know there are enough black legion termies to carry out a ship to ship boarding assault ergo there are enough to have an army of them

Ddraiglais
20-10-2009, 17:01
There are bits of fluff that support having terminator forces large enough to fill a 40K table. However, counts as workd pretty good here. The one exception to counts as working well is Abby. He has a rather large termie bodyguard. You can't take a loyalist codex to get your termies and take the Chaos dex to get Abby. You also kinda get screwed on taking CSM HS and elites (defiler, oblits, etc), but you are probably spending most of your points on termies anyway.

Corpse
20-10-2009, 17:04
For the whole daemon weapon debate.

For roughly 140-150 points depending on the mark, you get a variety of death to spread that is unique to the army in one way or another. All able to fight out of one of the many nasty close combat units of the force just hanging out being an IC as usual.

If you could upgrade one unit of 9 marines, that all have powerful close combat, and a str9 powerfist on the charge, then all you need is a mass of power weapon attacks at I5 and you're set, right? An all-purpose unit to make khorne proud.

I despise certain comparisons, especially HQ's. They work with the army, not as individual units. Add a relic blade commander to what? TH+SS terminators? LC terminators? That's about the only cost effective option aside from assault marines. None of them score, so its limited to suicide patrol and contesting an objective rather then take it over and stay on it to win the game.

The relic blade has a better medium. Not like you can get 17 attacks and wipe an entire unit of 10 guard/eldar at the relic's blades best. Oh no, you need to depend on them running and outrun them in order to wipe. The lord has two chances, either wipe the squad, or outrun it if they fail LD. But at double the wipe, comes double the danger.

But, yeah, daemon weapons are subpar to some other choices. But then again, you cant hide a DP inside a unit, or use a sorcerer without warptime depending on a psychic hood being on the table (or worse, 4 rune priests).

Got a shooty one, another for insta deathing units and singles alike, and another for slamming big critters. Combine the lord with a unit and you got a hard hitter.

I feel bad for the SM with the cool relic blade. They have very few options that are points efficient to team their HQs with. At least they can splurge for some grey knights for cost effective melee, without frag grenades on them. (dated rules!)

TheOneWithNoName
20-10-2009, 17:12
There's a FW Terminator special character, Zhufor, that lets you take another squad of Terminators as his retinue. So using him you can have 40 Terminators (one of which must take the Mark of Khorne).

Logan_uc
20-10-2009, 17:19
Chaos deathwing should not exist, probably only Abbadon controls that many termis, and he dosent use them that way more than any loylist scum.

And the " Imperial dogs have it and i should have it to" isnt a good argument, if you had drop pods and land speeder (they are pre-heresy so chaos have them to, and for drop pods chaos probably use them more) you would de playing super marine codex and not a different army.

If you are to complain, say that chaos lords shold have the options to be more killy than marine commanders(deamonic mutation, strength, etc, even Space wolves have "gifts"), and what in hell have the dark mechanicus been doing the last 10 thousand years.

Mannimarco
20-10-2009, 17:24
typhus also has a whole ton of termies as he commands one of the larger death guard fleets and the death guard had a large amount of terminator armour did they not? so for deathwing type armies we are kinnda limited to death guard, black legion and maybe iron warriors

well the dark mech have been very busy indeed: we have the defiler and the hell talon and hell blade, and maybe the brass scorpion and plague reaper and skull tower, maybe some of the stuff from epic although this could have been the forge of souls but thats another topic

TheOneWithNoName
20-10-2009, 18:20
Why are people ok with Khorne Lords leading Slanneshi armies but not with an entire army of Death Wing style Chaos Terminators?