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m048123
20-10-2009, 15:31
I am interested in making a new army, that a lot of our friends do not have. Currently our friends play almost every army besides BOC and DOC and Ogres. I was just looking for some opinions on DoC and whether they are interesting or not. I currently play DE and Skaven and was looking for something a bit different. Thanks...

Bac5665
20-10-2009, 15:35
This thread will devolve into fail in 3...2...1...

Now!

DoC is a topic of extreme opinions and lots of anger by the gaming community at large. DoC would be interesting to play if most games with them were not auto-win. But, they kinda are. DoC are the most broken army in warhammer than I can ever remember, and the entire book is basically a mistake. That said, if you know what you're doing, you can make a balanced list and play them without your opponent hating you. But it's hard.

m048123
20-10-2009, 15:37
How exactly are they so over powered?

EndlessBug
20-10-2009, 15:50
All decent casters can fly very easily/cheaply.

You can double up on gifts (they don't count as magical items).

Some gifts are just broken.

You can fill up your core with 3 units of 10 horrors - giving you 3 dispel dice and also 3 spells. Magical defence is pretty much sorted here.

Flamers are considered ridiculously undercosted.

Flesh hounds are also sickly powerful.

Masque/blue Scribes/Kairos are 3 of the sickest characters in the game.

BSBs can take both magical standards and gifts (consider a flying herald of Tzeentch, Lvl 2 caster, BSB, -2 Ld to all within 12"?, knows an entire lore and has a scroll).

Sick combos of characters. (I.e. Kairos (knows 14? spells, all of which are chosen), Blue scribes and 2 Heralds with vortex (+1 power die to the POOL)).

...

You can make a decent list as has been said, but they are incredibly hard to beat if designed well/averagely.

breakdown:
mixed list - will be broken.
Tzeentch - will be broken
Nurgle - boring games in general (not so broken though)
Khorne - Bloodthirster is sick, as are flesh hounds. But not too bad if you don't min/max core.
Slaanesh - Ld bomb is sickening but other than that they're alright.

The SkaerKrow
20-10-2009, 16:04
Do yourself a favor, and pick a different army. Most Daemons of Chaos players that I've met have played the army for about six months, grew tired of winning without effort or strategy, and moved on to another army. Games Workshop has a hard enough time balancing unbreakable armies (those that do not adhere to traditional break and flee rules) as it is. With Daemons of Chaos, they married one of the most forgiving Break mechanics in the game to some of the most potent units ever designed, creating an army book that never should have made it to print.

If you want something a bit different than Skaven or Dark Elves, try Ogre Kingdoms. They might not be a powerhouse army, but they'll definitely give you a gaming experience unlike those that you're accustomed to.

Tokamak
20-10-2009, 16:10
I've stopped considering them canon to Warhammer Fantasy.

PeG
20-10-2009, 16:22
It really depends on how you play them. The problem is that with many other lists there is a challenge to write a good, fluffy list that will also do good on the field. With daemons this is really easy. However I play slaanesh with some added magical defence (1 herald of tzeentch) and find them quite good to play with and not OP (unless you LD bomb wich realy hurts some armies)

Of course it also depends on your playing environment. If your opponents usually fields Slann in TG with several engines, HE stardragons, steamtanks etc daemons will fit in rather well without to much downtuning.

Einholt
20-10-2009, 16:35
I used to play them before the book, was very excited to get a book and then basically they ruined it for me. It's no fun when I have to try to gimp my lists. Honestly I would just wait for BoC not just because DoC are so broken which is my opinion and also happens to be the opinion of many others. On top of that there is a lot of evidence supporting said opinion even through there will be those who argue against it.

But anyway BoC for what you said seem the better choice, they can be very different then the horde style skaven you have, and you'll get a skirmish style army rather then the elite regiments of Dark Elves.

You won't have shooting (presumably) like the other two lists and your magic will be very combat oriented (again presumably).

It will give you a wider range of medium sized monsters and possibly some more interesting larger monsters.

All in all BoC seems like a better choice from the perspective you desrcibe even if you take the negatives for DoC out of the equation. At least that's how I see it.

AFnord
20-10-2009, 16:36
DoC is a topic of extreme opinions and lots of anger by the gaming community at large. DoC would be interesting to play if most games with them were not auto-win. But, they kinda are. DoC are the most broken army in warhammer than I can ever remember, and the entire book is basically a mistake. That said, if you know what you're doing, you can make a balanced list and play them without your opponent hating you. But it's hard.
*remembers the frenzied bloodthirester (20 attacks) in 5th edition* I can remember worse :P

If you want to have a fun and challenging game with DoC you really need to be able to restrain yourself. Don't take those power options that the list gives you (some of them are indeed severely underpriced), and don't go too heavy on magic and you should be able to make for a fun and interesting game. Can you resist the temptation?

Bac5665
20-10-2009, 16:59
*remembers the frenzied bloodthirester (20 attacks) in 5th edition* I can remember worse :P

Fair enough. I only played two games of 5th, Lizardmen against Dwarves. Never even got to adding magic in before 6E came out and we switched immediately.

DarkTerror
20-10-2009, 17:53
I think we need to sticky a thread like this

valdrog
20-10-2009, 18:25
The Demon book is an abomination that should be burned in the rigtheous fire of holly Nerfdoom !!

twistinthunder
20-10-2009, 18:49
You can double up on gifts (they don't count as magical items).




this part of your post implies i can take 1 model with many armed monstoristy(+2 attacks) twice(giving me +4 attacks), which i cant.

daemonic gifts totally fit the daemons fluff considering the gods can and most likely will give daemons whateever gift they want.

Einholt
20-10-2009, 18:56
It implies exactly what is true, that you may use the same gift in one army twice.

Demonic Gifts are not priced approriately to behave in a special way which is better then magic items, they are priced as if they were magic items yet have more advantages.

It would also be permitted by fluff for empire to run 4 runefangs but we can't because it's a balance issue with Magic items in general.

Why should DoC get something specail AND NOT PAY for it that now one else gets due to blanket rules.

The Gods could probably also Will entire units away as such is their amazing power in fluff but that wouldn't exactly be a balanced rule would it...

MercuryLamp
20-10-2009, 19:04
I've stopped considering them canon to Warhammer Fantasy.

I've never considered them canon. Daemons in my mind are summoned by Chaos Warriors or Beastmen as allies. Armies of all daemons are something that happened in the time of Aenarion and Grugni. And, you know, said armies disappeared when the great vortex was created.

And this thing with all the gods working together? That's just plain silly.

AFnord
20-10-2009, 19:22
Fair enough. I only played two games of 5th, Lizardmen against Dwarves. Never even got to adding magic in before 6E came out and we switched immediately.
You don't know what you missed. Slanns wiping out enemy armies by turn 3 (High magic vs undead), 600points+ vampire lords that you had to kill twice (50point magic item, they could have 3 or 4 magic items, if my memory serves), and they were insanely hard to kill even once, troops being next to useless.... the list goes on and on... The game is not as bad as it was during the 5th edition days, but yes, the balance is really not that good at the moment.

maaksel
20-10-2009, 19:45
I have DoC for 40k - I have been convinced not even to TRY to play them in fantasy. I have a slaanesh LD bomb I could use for 'fun' games, but other than that - they don't meet the fantasy world. Which sucks, because if they were more balanced I would love to play them.

I'm loving my dwarfs right now, but I have played Ogres - I would wait until they are redone. Dark elves can be fun, if you don't play some stupid list.

twistinthunder
20-10-2009, 19:50
It implies exactly what is true, that you may use the same gift in one army twice.

Demonic Gifts are not priced approriately to behave in a special way which is better then magic items, they are priced as if they were magic items yet have more advantages.

It would also be permitted by fluff for empire to run 4 runefangs but we can't because it's a balance issue with Magic items in general.

Why should DoC get something specail AND NOT PAY for it that now one else gets due to blanket rules.

The Gods could probably also Will entire units away as such is their amazing power in fluff but that wouldn't exactly be a balanced rule would it...


you think we dont pay for it????are you crazy?

- we can't take shields
- we can't take additional hand weapons
- we have no great weapons
- our only unit options are: musician,leader(they all have different names), standard bearer and fr some choice a choice between using a banner that isnt very good.

- daemonic instability we lose more daemons if we lose combat.
- most units are ld 7
- most of the daemonic gifts aren't really useful
- those gift which are useful cost alot



so we don't pay for it? sure.

loveless
20-10-2009, 19:57
Daemons are an odd duck in Fantasy.

While several armies require specific builds in order to be reliably successful, Daemons require specific builds in order to not win all the time, forever.

You can build a Daemon list that's both fun to play and not horrifying to play against, but it takes some working.

I suppose the real question is - given Daemons, what sort of army would you like to play? I know I have to stay away from that book because I inevitably go with the Slaaneshi leadership bomb - which typically results in either massive success or massive failure depending on the opponent :p

fubukii
20-10-2009, 20:06
Daemons of chaos are a top tier army (much like mecha guard or nob bikers in 40k). As such when people play with Poor or average lists and get steam rolled they whine and complain on random internet forums and exaggerate details. THere are certainly somethings that are Extremely powerful in the daemons of chaos book, but a top tier list from any new book competes with them(minus orcs thats a rough uphill battle).

I am for example can tell you that i have had a good amount of success with my other armies vs daemons (6th ed skaven soon to be 7th with all these lovely new toys!!!!!!!!!!!!!, and my dark elves)

as long as your group uses competitive lists, you should be fine
Some examples are:
HE with star dragon or teclis.
DE - bg or dragon double hydra
VC - any list with either a regening bunker, lots of pd, Lots of blood knights etc, VC fight pretty evenly with doc.
LM - EOTGS = bane of daemons.
Empire - stanks/cannons enough said.
dwarves - thorek is as amazing as ever vs daemons, in fact he dominates whole armies. Organ guns and bolt throwers do wonders too
New skaven will compete fine, with plague furnace and doom wheel spam.

the other armies have trouble.

Grimstonefire
20-10-2009, 20:08
you think we dont pay for it????are you crazy?


To be fair the herald locus abilities are free bonuses, for what the heralds are they don't quite pay for it out of their base cost (which is silly anyway, considering they could be in a massive unit or a tiny one for the same cost).

If a couple of heralds did this is it wouldn't be so bad, but with most armies they would be lucky to have one hero level character that did this for free, let alone all of them.

Einholt
20-10-2009, 20:15
No we don't pay for it I play DoC too and we don't pay for a lot of things. Honestly give it up

We have a built in ward, we have loci we don't pay for, we have plenty of access to strength 7 and our str 6 is free.

D6 inches to charge is amazing
Stubborn for first break test is amazing
+1 to cast is amazing
Reroll wounds is amazing

Each core troop has 1 great option in banner and 1 good to mediocre.

Our troops are all incredibly good at what they are designed to do and are rather underpriced at 12 points considering their special rules.

The only ones that are reasonable are Bloodletters and Demonettes. The PB is easily 14-15 points worth not to mention that its locus is ridiculous and unpaid for. Horrors are actually better at minimum then in larger blocks, and if the lower limit on unit size was say 15 it might actually be fair.

Demonic Instability is a joke, it gives us unbreakable in exchange for rolling. Not that we lose combat by much often especially if used properly.

GD's are extremely inexpensive for their power and DoC armies run at Ld 9, most armiees run on Ld 8 which is what our heros are.

Yea but they don't get used, the good ones and the broken ones do and they can be multiplied for no extra cost.

Siren is 25 points (ridiculously good)
Aok (allows for +0 AS Khorne heralds) 15 points
Firestorm 25 points negates regen and grants str 6
Flight 20 points
Multiple instances of Power vortex (no one else can do it repetedly)

Not to mention Immortal Fury, Obsidian Armor.

Out banners - Standard of Sundering (OMG Lore of Light might have actually been dangerous.... and while we are at it lets just tone down everyones magic phase for 50 points)

Despair - oh mighta been ok, but then they included the Masque in our list.

Hellfire - Expensive, POWERful almost worked except we can coerce people to use up their magic defense with Horror/Dice spam.

DoC are elite, extremely strong at what each unit does. AND THEN we remember that we don't really have a weakness because the gods can mix so we can cover each hole in our strategy or simply overwhelm by excelling at Magic or Movement or Outright Kill power or Survivability.

We have tools to deal with any threat to our strategy AND we have access to multiples of everything which essentially makes us the most reliable army, which can do everything as good or better then others, or just combine it all.

We dominate Pysch portion simply be existing, we can dominate movement we can dominate Active CR we can dominate survivable and static CR we can dominate magic.

We manipulate LD better then anyone, we maneuver with the best of them.

We can specialize or combine all aspects in an elite tier and we do not pay for any of it extra.

I know this army inside and out by heart. It is broken from a players and an opponents perspective.

Warp-Juicer
20-10-2009, 20:22
D6 inches to charge is amazing
Stubborn for first break test is amazing
+1 to cast is amazing
Reroll wounds is amazing


A lot of these are common in most OLD armies, oddly enough. Especially the extra charge distance. And they don't pay a lot for those.

Einholt
20-10-2009, 20:24
Right but they get 1 copy of it.

twistinthunder
20-10-2009, 20:32
To be fair the herald locus abilities are free bonuses, for what the heralds are they don't quite pay for it out of their base cost (which is silly anyway, considering they could be in a massive unit or a tiny one for the same cost).

If a couple of heralds did this is it wouldn't be so bad, but with most armies they would be lucky to have one hero level character that did this for free, let alone all of them.


khorne - hate all enemies to unit. agreed with undercosted herald.
tzeentch - 4+ save to their unit. bump the base cost to 135pts and thats reasonable.

nurgle - regeneration to unit. agreed, needs to cost as much epidemus(who needs to be about 175pts tbh).

slaanesh - always strike first to unit. agreed because 90pts is undercosted regardless of whether they get locus or not.

highelfmage
20-10-2009, 20:36
ignore everyone and choose an army you like. remember daemons cant flee so you have to be careful in the movement phases and who you charge because it may leave in a bad spot. all the good units will cost you ton of cash. most doc armies will be small. yes i know certain units can just move and be charged and still win cc.

twistinthunder
20-10-2009, 20:41
D6 inches to charge is amazing
Stubborn for first break test is amazing
+1 to cast is amazing
Reroll wounds is amazing



point 1 : FIRST CHARGE MOVE ONLY, 25pts for something that MIGHT get into combat quicker.

point 2:ONLY THE FIRST BREAK TEST.

point 3: doesn't apply to characters that join the unit, though i can see horrors benefiting from this.

point 4: plaguebearers need it tbh,though it can be great since they're a tough unit to budge and them going on to re-roll failed wound rolls, deadly.

Einholt
20-10-2009, 20:47
BL's are movement 5 if you are failing a charge with a 10 inch range and a 1 to 6 inch error compensation then you don't know how to play.

Right, the first one that they can Siren anything into and then hold and then flank it with a Hammer, having lost very few Demonettes due to the incredible resiliency of their ward save and high WS.

Right horrors, and horrors mind you that have the option to cast a flicker fire which in itself is already too low of a casting value.

They have str 4, they are meant to be a tank/bunker not also kill and win by CR, how many static resilient troops have killing power.

These guys are better at being dwarves then dwarves....

twistinthunder
20-10-2009, 20:49
troops are all incredibly good at what they are designed to do and are rather underpriced at 12 points considering their special rules.

The only ones that are reasonable are Bloodletters and Demonettes. The PB is easily 14-15 points worth not to mention that its locus is ridiculous and unpaid for. Horrors are actually better at minimum then in larger blocks, and if the lower limit on unit size was say 15 it might actually be fair.

i'd say daemonettes are undercosted i mean assuming they all get to combat thats at least 20/21 attacks.




i agree they are mostly undercosted.

Spider-pope
20-10-2009, 20:54
I have a Daemons of Chaos army, but when considering starting one you need to decide whether you can put up with the fact that you cannot win.

If you lose a game, you will hear no end of how the other player is amazing because they beat teh uber daemons!!!1!. Which can get annoying.

If you dare to win, then by god dont expect any credit for it. By most accounts you would think that a DoC army is actually motorized and the pieces move themselves into position and roll the dice. Any victory is nothing to do with you, its entirely the overpowered army book that did it, why were you even stood at the table?

You will also be branded a powergamer, because theres no way you chose the army because you liked the fluff (overpowered) or the models (overpowered) or the variety the list affords you (overpowered).
Dont even think of avoiding the supposedly unbalanced units either, because everything is unbalanced in the Daemons list (overpowered).

Personally i cant wait for the Skaven army book to be released, then all the whinging can move on to that book and leave me in peace to play the army i chose solely because i liked the miniature range.

fubukii
20-10-2009, 20:55
How are plaguebeares worht 14-15 pts? actually without a herald i dont think that entry is even worth looking at. Granted with one they are powerful indeed. But you pay alot of points for a herald of nurgle (mine costs roughly 250+ points)

Alot of the things ppl complain about are non factors really. I have played well over what must be 100 games now with my daemons and i cant ever remember doing any of the following:
- taking multiples of the same gift. ( except a spellbreaker.) Generally ill run either 4 heralds, 1 nurgle, 2 tz, 1 khorne, or swap the nurgle herald with a GD.
- Taking tons of unit banners? (infact unless i include 1 token bearer block i dont even have any banners aside from my bsb)
- Instability can be danergous i have played enough games and lost enough units due to it.
- Most armies run on ld9 or better actually. (empire, Elves, vc, skaven, LM, dwarves, )
- Vampires can take multiple vampire powers in thier list, and can take them with magic banners too. I think if you gave daemons mundane equip and disallowed this most of us daemon players would be happy.

Einholt
20-10-2009, 20:58
I'm sure you said your piece about hoping that the Dark Elves would come out, the WoC would come out and the Lizardmen would come out and then all the baseless whinners would move on and whine about them and DoC would not be broken.

Hasn't happened has it? Also the reason poeple don't give DoC generals credit is because if you use a powerful list it is simply impossible to distinguish whether it was the generalship or the army itself. On top of that DoC being so good and reliable allows its generals to make moves that are pretty sound when using DoC but would be suicide with anything else, so you can't really say they are bad generals if they make a move and win even if by rights that move seems stupid to do?


Fubukii

You act as if the leadership bubble from the general is on the whole board...

And the fact that you do not abuse options does not mean they are not abusable...

macdaddy
20-10-2009, 21:05
Are you really contending that the DOC isn't broken? Really?

1 - loci for free. This alone is enough to start the debate
2 - multiple characters all using the same "magic" items
3 - all core units of same god can have the same "magic" banner
A) ALL BL units cant be march blocked
B) ALL Horrors can have +1 to cast OR 3d6 s3 bound spell
C) ALL PB can get reroll to wound or every wound causes extra CR
4 - "magic" items aren't magical - cant be taken away - and are WAY underpriced
5 - army wide rules - 5+ ward, cause fear, ITP, all attacks are magical, unbreakable(almost)
6 - The ability to combine all this to your heart's content.

Really, it takes a conscience effort NOT to make a list OP

macdaddy
20-10-2009, 21:14
Each rule in and of itself isnt that bad, its when you combine them that the problems start.

plague bearers alone ok. add character and they now get 5+ ward AND 4+ regen. Now add either banner and you see the problem. Then add slime trail (10pts) and charging the rear or flank doen't count ....etc.

that is just one example

GuyLeCheval
20-10-2009, 21:16
IF you're going to play DoC, try this:

Greater deamon of slaanesh w. stuff

The changeling
Khorna BSB in chariot

3 big blocks (15-20) of bloodletters/deamonettes

Some screamers and some slaanesh fast cavalry

Plague beast.

This is a list that can deal with a lot of things, but isn't really overpowered, IMO

macdaddy
20-10-2009, 21:18
sorry about the double post, i hit the wrong button

Draconian77
20-10-2009, 21:21
Each rule in and of itself isnt that bad, its when you combine them that the problems start.

plague bearers alone ok. add character and they now get 5+ ward AND 4+ regen. Now add either banner and you see the problem. Then add slime trail (10pts) and charging the rear or flank doen't count ....etc.

that is just one example

Example of what exactly? A 500pt unit that I don't even have to approach?

How can a forum/playerbase that attacks Warriors of Chaos constantly for having a (I'm paraphrasing) "pathetic movement of 4" still be in awe of a M4 bunker? It boggles the mind...

As an aside, Locus is essentially balanced, its an advantage the DoC characters get because they have very limited options when it comes to deployment. (A DE Master can be mounted on 4 different mounts and join any of about a dozen units, a Herald of Nurgle can pretty much only join a block of Plaguebearers...)

Now, saying that, I still feel that Heralds of Tzeentch and Nurgle should cost 135pts base and the Regen might be better at 5+, rather than 4+ to actually encourage combat.

jimbobodoll
20-10-2009, 21:24
I've never considered them canon. Daemons in my mind are summoned by Chaos Warriors or Beastmen as allies. Armies of all daemons are something that happened in the time of Aenarion and Grugni. And, you know, said armies disappeared when the great vortex was created.

And this thing with all the gods working together? That's just plain silly.
Here Here. I second all of these opinions and would like to add that if GW were so keen on demon armies then they should have expanded upon this as perhaps a subversion of FB set in the chaos wastes (wistfully remembers the awesome little mini game in WD back when FatBloke ran it and "Belly's gonna get you!" the Nurgle Minotaur).

Enigmatik1
20-10-2009, 21:31
Example of what exactly? A 500pt unit that I don't even have to approach?

How can a forum/playerbase that attacks Warriors of Chaos constantly for bieng a (I'm paraphrasing) "pathetic movement 4" still be in awe of a M4 bunker? It boggles the mind...



Not really mind boggling, Draco. I think if Warriors of Chaos had easy access to Regeneration you just might hear the same things about them. That isn't to say they can't get it, they can via Fleshy Abundance or by including Festus in the unit but relying on a spell (that you may not get) or the survival of an otherwise squishy character (that is nonetheless obligated to issue/accept challenges) isn't quite the same.

People generally don't like it when people stack multiple saves on already hardy units and they complain when it happens.

Additionally, the "pathetic M4" isn't an indictment of Warriors of Chaos imho. It's more an indictment of infantry in general...but that's another story entirely. Luck for them (and VERY unlucky/unfair for those of us with trashy infantry), Daemonic infantry is generally multi-purpose and doesn't suck.

Lord Inquisitor
20-10-2009, 21:59
I've been playing Daemons for a long time now and the current incarnation fails in certain regards. I do feel that people really have issue with some of the wrong things.

Fear/ItP/Instability
The old Hordes of Chaos book had these things and a pure-Daemon army was a joke. It was severely underpowered. This isn't the cause of the overpowering.

5+ ward
Again, this has been around for a long time. The storm of chaos list was pretty balanced, it wasn't an issue then, and having the Ward negated by magical attacks made the daemons in the old list very vulnerable to certain lists. Really, the army-wide ward isn't a major problem as virtually all units don't have armour. There's the occasional hero that gets absurdly protected by 0+ armour and ward or 4+ armour with regen, but that's more a problem with the gifts themselves not the army-wide ward.

Loci
In principle this shouldn't necessarily be an issue, given that the unit upgrade should be costed into the herald. Whether this is true is another matter. But the Locus rule isn't a problem by itself, we have marks/banners/etc that aren't costed into the basic trooper's cost in many armies so it isn't an intrinsic problem.

Multiple copies of gifts
While it is not to be denied that spamming certain abilities can always tax a points system, daemons don't get equipment and if you run a single god, you are quite limited in gifts anyway. Its not like all heralds/greater daemons can take all gifts whereas every other army can usually cherry-pick from their entire magic item selection. If the gifts are correctly pointed, this should not be an issue.

Things that are actually broken:

Points values are just off. I've been playing with my opponents getting 25% more points than me and it evens up the games nicely. There are certainly some units that are worse offenders than others. How anyone thought that the Masque was worth only 90 points is beyond me. I can only guess that she was playtested little and got shot a lot because you could put her at 250 points and I'd still take her. Other units like flesh hounds are not particularly broken in terms of stats (although I don't know why they have 2 wounds), but their points value is simply too low.

The solution: do what many tournaments have been doing. Just give your opponent 10-25% more points than you, unless they're playing Dark Elves or Vampires, in which they should be able to handle daemons.

Automatic abilities. There's a suspcious number of abilities that are automatic and don't run out. Noone would have an issue with the Masque aside from being perhaps a little cheap if her abilities were bound spells. Same deal with siren song, or the siren banner, if it were a Ld test or be dispellable then it would be a different story.

The solution: just don't take these abilities. I've actually put together a new daemon list with no gifts at all. No magic banners, gifts of any kind. It does free up points to buy more troops, I'll see how it plays, but I suspect it will be far less obnoxious.

Draconian77
20-10-2009, 22:48
Not really mind boggling, Draco. I think if Warriors of Chaos had easy access to Regeneration you just might hear the same things about them. That isn't to say they can't get it, they can via Fleshy Abundance or by including Festus in the unit but relying on a spell (that you may not get) or the survival of an otherwise squishy character (that is nonetheless obligated to issue/accept challenges) isn't quite the same.

Squishy? Squishy?! :D When was the last time you fought a squishy chaos character? They almost always have a 1+ save and around here, normally a ward save. (Tzeentch+Talisman of Protection/Collar of Khorne/Armour of Morrslieb)

People generally don't like it when people stack multiple saves on already hardy units and they complain when it happens.

I don't like it either as it encourages an opposing player to avoid combat, but it isn't gamebreaking on M4 models.

Additionally, the "pathetic M4" isn't an indictment of Warriors of Chaos imho. It's more an indictment of infantry in general...but that's another story entirely. Luck for them (and VERY unlucky/unfair for those of us with trashy infantry), Daemonic infantry is generally multi-purpose and doesn't suck.

I realise that the "pathetic M4" reflects on almost all infantry and while the Daemonic Core don't all fall into this category, the Plaguebearer bunker certainly does and thus the comparison is relevant. I just cannot respect a 500pt unit that might get into combat and even then, it's unlikely to break my units. It just's not very likely (to put it mildly) to break either. ;)

Different players, different views it seems.

Sirroelivan
20-10-2009, 23:02
this part of your post implies i can take 1 model with many armed monstoristy(+2 attacks) twice(giving me +4 attacks), which i cant.

daemonic gifts totally fit the daemons fluff considering the gods can and most likely will give daemons whateever gift they want.

Of course, and that's why the WoC book "Gifts of the Gods" say: "Each gift may only be chosen one per army - the Chaos Gods aren't fond of repeating themselves!"

Enigmatik1
20-10-2009, 23:11
Different players, different views it seems.

I was referring to Festus, who as a character, gives his unit Regeneration just by him being there. Festus is squishy, Draco and is humorously forced to adhere to the Eye of the Gods special rule. :D I wasn't talking about standard Chaos Sorcerors, who are most assuredly NOT squishy.

We agree on your second point, although if I had the option to do it, I'm not going to lie I probably would on occassion, especially against superior infantry (which is legion where skeletons are involved).

Good point about the last point. No arguments here as you couldn't pay me to take a unit within 12" of a Plaguebunker. I wasn't implying that you're wrong. In case there's any confusion. I'm merely being devilish! :evilgrin:

Draconian77
20-10-2009, 23:18
Fair enough, Festus is squishy (and slow...and weak!). Which is probably why we don't see him too often. :)

kardar233
21-10-2009, 01:18
Here Here. I second all of these opinions and would like to add that if GW were so keen on demon armies then they should have expanded upon this as perhaps a subversion of FB set in the chaos wastes (wistfully remembers the awesome little mini game in WD back when FatBloke ran it and "Belly's gonna get you!" the Nurgle Minotaur).

Oh yeah.... the Chaos Warband rules. Those were damn awesome.

Bit hard to balance though; my starting Warband contained 5 Chaos Warriors, a Chosen Knight and my Champion (+1 strength, flail, shield, Chaos Steed, undivided). It absolutely crushed my opponent's Warband which was 1 Marauder Horseman, about seven Marauders, a Minotaur and his Nurgle Champion. Every single time. The combined M7 of my heavy cavalry was faster than any of his guys except the Horseman (which would die easily) and not even the Minotaur could stand up to 2 S5, 3 S7 and 2 S4 attacks.

Sygerrik
21-10-2009, 02:32
Ugh, this again. Daemons are flat out broken mostly, in my mind, because of three (and a half) things:
1) There are an alarming number of powers that there really is no defense against-- Siren Song, the Masque, Skulltaker, Banner of Sundering-- there is no real "counter" to these models/abilities.
2) All the points costs are fairly arbitrary. Flamers and Flesh Hounds would be a steal at 50 points each, Horrors at 15, and characters STARTING at 150. Most Daemonic Gifts cost roughly half of what they should, except for the REALLY expensive ones, many of which shouldn't exist at all.
3) The instability mechanic is woefully insufficient, especially given how hard it is to actually break a unit in combat. It should not be rerollable-- the BSB should simply cause one fewer model to "poof" like for Undead armies. Better yet, they should just use Undead breaking rules. If they have to keep what they have, nothing in the list should have or grant Stubborn. A Stubborn Ld 9 unit that has to take Instability tests, especially since there's no incentive NOT to take a BSB (since they can still have combat gifts, wtf), might as well just say "Unbreakable."
3.5) Yeah, I'll admit there are some things in the army that simply should not be, like Flamers ignoring shooting minuses, the sheer volume of things that can add power dice to the army pool instead of to the wizard's pool, etc. But I only count this as 1/2 a point because I think if GW adds counters to some things, increases the points cost and retools instability, the army would be balanced even with most entries remaining pretty much the same rules-wise.

What burns me is that GW still runs tournaments and gives prize support when this army exists. Most tournaments I've been to have been competitions to see who can build the best Daemon army, or the best specifically anti-Daemon build of a Lizardmen or DE army.

fubukii
21-10-2009, 05:16
Ugh, this again. Daemons are flat out broken mostly, in my mind, because of three (and a half) things:
1) There are an alarming number of powers that there really is no defense against-- Siren Song, the Masque, Skulltaker, Banner of Sundering-- there is no real "counter" to these models/abilities.
2) All the points costs are fairly arbitrary. Flamers and Flesh Hounds would be a steal at 50 points each, Horrors at 15, and characters STARTING at 150. Most Daemonic Gifts cost roughly half of what they should, except for the REALLY expensive ones, many of which shouldn't exist at all.
3) The instability mechanic is woefully insufficient, especially given how hard it is to actually break a unit in combat. It should not be rerollable-- the BSB should simply cause one fewer model to "poof" like for Undead armies. Better yet, they should just use Undead breaking rules. If they have to keep what they have, nothing in the list should have or grant Stubborn. A Stubborn Ld 9 unit that has to take Instability tests, especially since there's no incentive NOT to take a BSB (since they can still have combat gifts, wtf), might as well just say "Unbreakable."
3.5) Yeah, I'll admit there are some things in the army that simply should not be, like Flamers ignoring shooting minuses, the sheer volume of things that can add power dice to the army pool instead of to the wizard's pool, etc. But I only count this as 1/2 a point because I think if GW adds counters to some things, increases the points cost and retools instability, the army would be balanced even with most entries remaining pretty much the same rules-wise.

What burns me is that GW still runs tournaments and gives prize support when this army exists. Most tournaments I've been to have been competitions to see who can build the best Daemon army, or the best specifically anti-Daemon build of a Lizardmen or DE army.


I will give you that siren song is flat out broken and skulltaker is underpointed but to say the banner of sundering is Unstoppable is crap. Just take different lores. he cant nerf them all.

flesh hounds would be crap for 50 pts, as would flamers. A chaos knight costs 40 and is better then a flesh hound overal. A flamer could probably be 40pts, but honestly my flamers never seem to do anything worth wild in the shooting phase ;/
15 pts for a horror could be ok. but given thier statline (like a empire guy) you are basically paying 6 pts to gain all its rules which may be slightly under costed.
Hmm alot of the gifts arent really that bad point wise, armor of khorne should probably be 25 pts instead of 15, firestorm blade is basically a pricey sword. of might? Granted siren should be 50 pts.
Instability can be bad, or it can be good. ALot of ppl claim daemons never take more then like 1-2 wounds but i have had whole units poof/greater daemons die to poofing.

And flamers do not ignore shooting penealties my flamers always tend to have to roll 5+ to hit. being skirmishers they move and are normally at long range for a bit, i suggest you reread the daemon book

Jind_Singh
21-10-2009, 05:55
I've been playing Daemons for a long time now and the current incarnation fails in certain regards. I do feel that people really have issue with some of the wrong things.

Fear/ItP/Instability
The old Hordes of Chaos book had these things and a pure-Daemon army was a joke. It was severely underpowered. This isn't the cause of the overpowering.

5+ ward
Again, this has been around for a long time. The storm of chaos list was pretty balanced, it wasn't an issue then, and having the Ward negated by magical attacks made the daemons in the old list very vulnerable to certain lists. Really, the army-wide ward isn't a major problem as virtually all units don't have armour. There's the occasional hero that gets absurdly protected by 0+ armour and ward or 4+ armour with regen, but that's more a problem with the gifts themselves not the army-wide ward.

Loci
In principle this shouldn't necessarily be an issue, given that the unit upgrade should be costed into the herald. Whether this is true is another matter. But the Locus rule isn't a problem by itself, we have marks/banners/etc that aren't costed into the basic trooper's cost in many armies so it isn't an intrinsic problem.

Multiple copies of gifts
While it is not to be denied that spamming certain abilities can always tax a points system, daemons don't get equipment and if you run a single god, you are quite limited in gifts anyway. Its not like all heralds/greater daemons can take all gifts whereas every other army can usually cherry-pick from their entire magic item selection. If the gifts are correctly pointed, this should not be an issue.

Things that are actually broken:

Points values are just off. I've been playing with my opponents getting 25% more points than me and it evens up the games nicely. There are certainly some units that are worse offenders than others. How anyone thought that the Masque was worth only 90 points is beyond me. I can only guess that she was playtested little and got shot a lot because you could put her at 250 points and I'd still take her. Other units like flesh hounds are not particularly broken in terms of stats (although I don't know why they have 2 wounds), but their points value is simply too low.

The solution: do what many tournaments have been doing. Just give your opponent 10-25% more points than you, unless they're playing Dark Elves or Vampires, in which they should be able to handle daemons.

Automatic abilities. There's a suspcious number of abilities that are automatic and don't run out. Noone would have an issue with the Masque aside from being perhaps a little cheap if her abilities were bound spells. Same deal with siren song, or the siren banner, if it were a Ld test or be dispellable then it would be a different story.

The solution: just don't take these abilities. I've actually put together a new daemon list with no gifts at all. No magic banners, gifts of any kind. It does free up points to buy more troops, I'll see how it plays, but I suspect it will be far less obnoxious.

This guy hits the nail on the head! YES we all know why the Deamons are overpowered, YES we all know that they have dirty options, and yes they are blah, blah!

But you know what, they serve many purposes. Take a pure Khorne list, load it with bloodletters, fleshounds, and bloodcrushers - leave Bid Daddy Thirster at home.
You now got a very good looking army, plays great! Any army with even medium magic casting will love you as you can only sit back and smile as they magic you.
You can hit hard but not as hard as other armies in many ways, so for eg High Elves will smile on your list.
You move fast with base 5" and 8" on the hounds but you'll still be outflanked!
And I've NEVER heard anyone moan about the all Khorne list, and you still need to be a good general to pull the wins off. Sure people will look at your Fleshounds with nothing but hurt in their eyes....
Pure Slaanesh - again a challange to play and its not an auto-win army.
Pure nurgle - bloody biggest 1 trick pony in the book - everyone knows they are slow as hell, and take forever to kill. But add some flame to the offensive and now you got sad lil buggers lining up to get creamed!
Pure Tzeentch - mmmmm, become a high elf and load up on dragon princes! yeah pure tzeentch is hard but counter it with a fast moving, hard hitting force with magic defence - get tzeentch into combat and they are toast
So a pure list is a good way to go, and limit your options - you DONT HAVE to always take firestorm blade, armour of khorne, jugger for a herald of khorne - be creative and take other gifts for him!

fubukii
21-10-2009, 07:01
honestly i think the FSB is over rateed on a khorne herald. I never give mine one with str 6 and killing blow whats the point? Armor of khorne and bsb is normally all i do. If i have points i give him +d3 CR.

Arjuna
21-10-2009, 08:08
To the OP:

1) Pick an army that you think will be fun to paint and play.

2) There are a lot of whiners on this forum that cant cope with change or the fact that some armies may be better than others, ignore them.

3) Dont pay any heed to people that claim it is some crime against continuity and the holy writ of warhammer for demons of dissimilar gods to be in the same army. Their claims are without merit and contradicted by the history of whfb rules, wh40k rules and fiction written for both systems. The first major works describing the warhammer chaos pantheon were published in 1990. The amount of background stories written since then that clearly show the various chaos powers working together is quite substantial.

Spider-pope
21-10-2009, 09:16
To everyone who replied to my post with "OMG they are broken!!1!, i can't believe you can't see they are broken!!1!" thank you for proving my point far better than i ever could.

Malice&Mizery
21-10-2009, 12:10
Whinge, whine and moan - All you ever get from people when you mention DoC on this forum.

Just play whatever army you want, it's your money.

Tokamak
21-10-2009, 12:17
This guy hits the nail on the head! YES we all know why the Deamons are overpowered, YES we all know that they have dirty options, and yes they are blah, blah!

Great, that was the main point.


2) There are a lot of whiners on this forum that cant cope with change or the fact that some armies may be better than others

You can? You think it's totally fine that every game someone plays has already been decided from the moment he picked his army?

The SkaerKrow
21-10-2009, 12:37
To all of the people that replied to the "whiners" with derision while providing nothing in the way of valid counter-points, thank you for outing yourselves as power-gamers.

Ixquic
21-10-2009, 13:29
2) There are a lot of whiners on this forum that cant cope with change or the fact that some armies may be better than others, ignore them.


I cope with obviously broken armies by not playing against them since it's a waste of time and isn't fun.

Sygerrik
21-10-2009, 15:27
I will give you that siren song is flat out broken and skulltaker is underpointed but to say the banner of sundering is Unstoppable is crap. Just take different lores. he cant nerf them all.

flesh hounds would be crap for 50 pts, as would flamers. A chaos knight costs 40 and is better then a flesh hound overal. A flamer could probably be 40pts, but honestly my flamers never seem to do anything worth wild in the shooting phase ;/
15 pts for a horror could be ok. but given thier statline (like a empire guy) you are basically paying 6 pts to gain all its rules which may be slightly under costed.
Hmm alot of the gifts arent really that bad point wise, armor of khorne should probably be 25 pts instead of 15, firestorm blade is basically a pricey sword. of might? Granted siren should be 50 pts.
Instability can be bad, or it can be good. ALot of ppl claim daemons never take more then like 1-2 wounds but i have had whole units poof/greater daemons die to poofing.

And flamers do not ignore shooting penealties my flamers always tend to have to roll 5+ to hit. being skirmishers they move and are normally at long range for a bit, i suggest you reread the daemon book

You have to look in context for all of this stuff. For example, Armor of Khorne isn't broken by itself, but the fact that you can take it and a Jugger is pretty messed up-- 0+ saves are hard to crack. Firestorm Blade isn't bad, but since Khorne daemons have native S6, that +1 bumps them up to S7, which is kind of "the sweet spot" for Strength-- wounding T5 on 2s and instakilling chariots. The bump from S6 to S7 is far more valuable than, say, S5 to S6.

Flesh Hounds would be fine if they were S4 in non-charge rounds of combat, or if they had 1 wound, or if they weren't so damn fast. It's not any one thing, it's everything. Flamers move, yes, but they should take the multiple shots penalty. To be honest, I'd like to see Flamers redesigned-- S3/T4, 1 wound, the ability to choose to fire one S4 shot or d6 S3s, and reduced in points cost. They'd be kind of harrying skirmishers, but not the unit-wipers they are now.

Instability isn't perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be (where you could lose whole units if you failed a check on your base Ld) and it's a hell of a lot better than what Undead get. Honestly, just changing it to Undead-style crumbling would fix a lot of problems with the list.

The problem with horrors right now is that you are filling your Core choices with wizards. I can see three solutions to this:
-Make them pay a lot for those wizards-- increase the points cost significantly per horror and put the minimum unit size at 20
-Move horrors to Special. Simple, effective.
-Make a miscast for Horrors more devastating. Maybe roll on the miscast table and apply the result to every horror in the unit. You roll 1,1? Bye-bye, entire unit.

And lastly, my point with the banner of sundering is that it's yet another ability that there's no counter to. There's no range, so you can't keep your wizards away from the banner. It's not activated, so you can't counter it like a bound spell or wait for it to run out like a one-use item. It's just an item that screws you just by existing, which the Daemons have a lot of.

PeG
21-10-2009, 15:59
It really comes to how you play them and which units you take. I play several armies and I win more games with my WE than I do with my regular daemon army. With some of my other armies my win rate is about the same. I also dont hear many opponents complaining about my daemon army while I actually had a dwarf army refusing to play my WE (noble, spellsinger, treeman, dryads, glade guards, glade riders, scouts)

Bac5665
21-10-2009, 16:06
We all know that the book is powerful, but some of us don't feel the need to bang on and on and on and on about it.

Moaning about daemons is flogging a long dead horse. In fact, this horse has died, been turned to glue, used to hang some wallpaper, which has then peeled and discoloured due to age.

The problem is that we don't all know that, besides people like the OP, who actually started a thread to ASK about DoC, too many people in this thread have denied that DoC are even a problem. Those people are the ones who are a problem.

Your complaint is quite valid, and is why nearly every time this thread pops up, someone recommends stickying it. I strong support that idea, but it has nothing to do with people claiming DoC aren't a problem being powergamers.

The SkaerKrow
21-10-2009, 16:26
There's no leap of logic. Statements like "ignore the whiners" are not sound, mature or rational defenses against the mountain of evidence that pegs the Daemons of Chaos as being an over-the-top army. What they sound like, more than anything else, are hollow defenses by those people who would rather win than engage their opponents on anything approaching equal footing. Discussion is healthy, ignoring the points of others (and attacking them for having those points) because you do not like what they imply is not.

If you're tired of seeing people "banging on" about Daemons of Chaos (and to be sure, I couldn't care less what you're tired of, Fenrir), then I suggest that you stay out of general discussion topics related to Daemons of Chaos. No one's holding a gun to anyone else's head, forcing them to acknowledge, witness or participate in such topics. When a new player asks about Daemons of Chaos, you know what to expect from the topic that follows.

Izram
21-10-2009, 16:40
There will always be a #1 top tier army. I don't care if it is DoC,or VC or DE or whatever.

What I think the DoC have against them is the new direction GW is taking them. They are completely flavorless and all the character has been sucked out of them and been replaced with special rules. There is little to no variety within the individual god's forces, so what do they do? They let you mix gods with no penalty. All the gods play nice together.

I think the book would be better off if they fixed special character points costs and put in serious penalties for mixing gods. Maybe require a daemon prince general that pays for all the marks you want to use. That would be pretty much giving the enemy a 25% points bonus, which seems to work out well if what I hear around is correct.

Einholt
21-10-2009, 18:20
It does not matter Skaer that they attack us and have their argument amount to "ignore the whiners", a rational person will see who has the evidence and knows how to argue a valid point. That's the only reason I post I don't really care to save fools only those who honestly want to be informed.

Oh and Malice some people actually care about their opponents enjoyment too, especially if they are your friends. I think the OP asked his questions so he knows what he is getting into. If he was the type of person who didn't care about others I highly doubt he would ask in the first place. I posted a stance with evidence of the fact that DoC are broken and more often then not ruin the game for both players unless one happens to be the type of person who wants to win and does not care much for his opponent. I want to stress the MORE OFTEN THEN NOT part, DoC also ruins your own enjoyment if you are trying to build a fun list since it is extremely hard as a competitive gamer to create a list with this army that is not Broken. I have a competitive mindset and like to optimize my lists, it is very difficult to satisfy that approach with DoC without being imbalanced. The second reason I posted is that it is his money and I want the guy to be informed and make a decision properly. I wasted my money on this Army and if I could go back I probably would not have bought it, granted I had them before this book was put into action.

Malice&Mizery
21-10-2009, 19:14
Oh and Malice some people actually care about their opponents enjoyment too, especially if they are your friends.

Still shouldn't stop people buying the army THEY want.

I'm not a Daemon player, for the record. I just wouldn't stop someone from playing something they spent thier money on.

Tokamak
21-10-2009, 19:15
I cope with obviously broken armies by not playing against them since it's a waste of time and isn't fun.

/thread. :D


Still shouldn't stop people buying the army THEY want.

Sure, nobody is forcing anything on anybody here, we're just saying that less and less people want to play against DoC.

fubukii
21-10-2009, 20:31
You have to look in context for all of this stuff. For example, Armor of Khorne isn't broken by itself, but the fact that you can take it and a Jugger is pretty messed up-- 0+ saves are hard to crack. Firestorm Blade isn't bad, but since Khorne daemons have native S6, that +1 bumps them up to S7, which is kind of "the sweet spot" for Strength-- wounding T5 on 2s and instakilling chariots. The bump from S6 to S7 is far more valuable than, say, S5 to S6.

Flesh Hounds would be fine if they were S4 in non-charge rounds of combat, or if they had 1 wound, or if they weren't so damn fast. It's not any one thing, it's everything. Flamers move, yes, but they should take the multiple shots penalty. To be honest, I'd like to see Flamers redesigned-- S3/T4, 1 wound, the ability to choose to fire one S4 shot or d6 S3s, and reduced in points cost. They'd be kind of harrying skirmishers, but not the unit-wipers they are now.

Instability isn't perfect but it's a hell of a lot better than it used to be (where you could lose whole units if you failed a check on your base Ld) and it's a hell of a lot better than what Undead get. Honestly, just changing it to Undead-style crumbling would fix a lot of problems with the list.

The problem with horrors right now is that you are filling your Core choices with wizards. I can see three solutions to this:
-Make them pay a lot for those wizards-- increase the points cost significantly per horror and put the minimum unit size at 20
-Move horrors to Special. Simple, effective.
-Make a miscast for Horrors more devastating. Maybe roll on the miscast table and apply the result to every horror in the unit. You roll 1,1? Bye-bye, entire unit.

And lastly, my point with the banner of sundering is that it's yet another ability that there's no counter to. There's no range, so you can't keep your wizards away from the banner. It's not activated, so you can't counter it like a bound spell or wait for it to run out like a one-use item. It's just an item that screws you just by existing, which the Daemons have a lot of.

if flesh hounds were reduced to str 4 in second round of combat or reduced to 1 wound they would probably be one of the worst units in the game. I think you are trying to over nerf them which is a common practice. Light arm fire is really the bane of this unit or multiple wound weapons. Unload on them with some RXBS and watch them drop, sadly the chaos knights will not suffer the same fate. CHaos knights not only get 1+ armor, more attacks and slightly increased stats, they can be marked for very cheap making them about 66% more offensive, going from 15 attacks, to 25, compared to a flesh hounds 10 attacks. Sure you pay more, but lets be honest you get alot more with a chaos knight. I would gladly charge a Full skeleton unit with a unit of 5 chaos knights, and have good confidence that they wont be there soon, not so much with the flesh hounds. A more Simple change is to maybe just give them MR2 instead of 3, with karanak possibly giving them mr3.

Why should flamers take multiple shot penalties? Nothing else like them does. Leadblechers, razodons etc. Multiple shot penalties normally only are used on things with a fixed number of shots, and even then some things dont suffer it. I dont know how units of flamers are dominating whole units, unless its a picture perfect scenario of Short range/no moving/roll high number of shots. generally a flamer unit will need a 5+ to hit with the first couple of turns of shooting, if he can soot turn 1 at all. 6 flamers should do about 21 shots at str 4 netting about 7 hits, and about 4 wounds to a t3 5+ save unit. Sure if i roll say30 shots at close range no and moving, they become deadly! but by the same token i have the same chance to roll 12 shots. There has been turns where i cant kill 5 dire wolves at close range, and lucky turns where i can zap a zombie dragon out of the sky. The units shooting is totally random, and i would prefer it they just get a stead 3-4 shots each, then people wouldnt complain about the freak 30+ shots at close range no moving killing half thier unit.

your suggestions about horrors again are over nerfing. THey have always done something in the magic phase, be it a bound spell or what not.I for one would prefer a bound spell as it is more reliable but i will be honest i take them for dispel dice mostly. Maybe make it 7+ to keep your wizard level, as that will make people include non min sized units. As for the miscast simple have a scale chart - 2d6 miscat = 1d6 wounds 3d6 miscast = d6 +2 wounds 4d6 d6 +3 5 d6 d6 + 4 wounds. at the very least they should have thier own miscast table.

On the issue of undead, yes if you just compare crumble to Instability, instability is a little bit better, but you must remember undead troops come back, often in very large numbers.

granted say both a undead unit and a daemon unit lose by 5.
Undead just takes 5 wound, simple easy to predict and plan around
Daemons on average will take wounds5 unless in general range. Bt theres a chance to take 6-10 wounds, just as theres a chance you take 0-4 On average expect 4-6, in slightly more rare cases 7-8, and 2-3, and in extreme cases 0-2 and 9-10, Everytime you see a daemon player roll a 3 on a instability test just know theres someone like me rolling a 11 :)

w3rm
22-10-2009, 01:55
Whinge, whine and moan - All you ever get from people when you mention DoC on this forum.

Just play whatever army you want, it's your money.

Malice&Mizery, this is simply beautiful!

Einholt
22-10-2009, 04:25
And you were wondering why your little bro doesn't have a good time when he plays =) against you?

Sygerrik
22-10-2009, 05:14
if flesh hounds were reduced to str 4 in second round of combat or reduced to 1 wound they would probably be one of the worst units in the game. I think you are trying to over nerf them which is a common practice. Light arm fire is really the bane of this unit or multiple wound weapons. Unload on them with some RXBS and watch them drop, sadly the chaos knights will not suffer the same fate. CHaos knights not only get 1+ armor, more attacks and slightly increased stats, they can be marked for very cheap making them about 66% more offensive, going from 15 attacks, to 25, compared to a flesh hounds 10 attacks. Sure you pay more, but lets be honest you get alot more with a chaos knight. I would gladly charge a Full skeleton unit with a unit of 5 chaos knights, and have good confidence that they wont be there soon, not so much with the flesh hounds. A more Simple change is to maybe just give them MR2 instead of 3, with karanak possibly giving them mr3.

Why should flamers take multiple shot penalties? Nothing else like them does. Leadblechers, razodons etc. Multiple shot penalties normally only are used on things with a fixed number of shots, and even then some things dont suffer it. I dont know how units of flamers are dominating whole units, unless its a picture perfect scenario of Short range/no moving/roll high number of shots. generally a flamer unit will need a 5+ to hit with the first couple of turns of shooting, if he can soot turn 1 at all. 6 flamers should do about 21 shots at str 4 netting about 7 hits, and about 4 wounds to a t3 5+ save unit. Sure if i roll say30 shots at close range no and moving, they become deadly! but by the same token i have the same chance to roll 12 shots. There has been turns where i cant kill 5 dire wolves at close range, and lucky turns where i can zap a zombie dragon out of the sky. The units shooting is totally random, and i would prefer it they just get a stead 3-4 shots each, then people wouldnt complain about the freak 30+ shots at close range no moving killing half thier unit.

your suggestions about horrors again are over nerfing. THey have always done something in the magic phase, be it a bound spell or what not.I for one would prefer a bound spell as it is more reliable but i will be honest i take them for dispel dice mostly. Maybe make it 7+ to keep your wizard level, as that will make people include non min sized units. As for the miscast simple have a scale chart - 2d6 miscat = 1d6 wounds 3d6 miscast = d6 +2 wounds 4d6 d6 +3 5 d6 d6 + 4 wounds. at the very least they should have thier own miscast table.

On the issue of undead, yes if you just compare crumble to Instability, instability is a little bit better, but you must remember undead troops come back, often in very large numbers.

granted say both a undead unit and a daemon unit lose by 5.
Undead just takes 5 wound, simple easy to predict and plan around
Daemons on average will take wounds5 unless in general range. Bt theres a chance to take 6-10 wounds, just as theres a chance you take 0-4 On average expect 4-6, in slightly more rare cases 7-8, and 2-3, and in extreme cases 0-2 and 9-10, Everytime you see a daemon player roll a 3 on a instability test just know theres someone like me rolling a 11 :)

The fact that you do not see why your units are broken is making this impossible for me. Your statement that Chaos Knights are even CLOSE to flesh hounds is laughable.
As much as you talk about Instability, the generally high Ld in the army and the prevalence of BSBs means that most players barely lose any models to it. That is not theoryhammer, it is grounded in tens of games worth of experience. Chaos Knights you can break, you can run down, you can cause to flee, or in the case of Khornate ones, you can redirect with bait. Flesh Hounds you have to kill. You have to kill every. last. one. They will never flee. They will never charge bait. Not to mention they are faster than Chaos Knights; they also cause fear, which means they are sometimes immune to charges, and they can win combats without rolling a single die. The idea that they are not worth 50 points each is ridiculous. Five flesh hounds should be a 250 point unit, because it certainly performs like one. MR 2 as a fix is utterly worthless, since it's still high enough to guarantee that they'll almost never be killed by magic.

Also remember, the reason undead troops come back is that undead troops are CRAP. Daemons, even non-combat specific daemons, are superior to undead troops; Daemonettes and Bloodletters are some of the nastiest infantry in the game, AND they don't break. If I could take Grave Guard as Core, I sure would! But Bloodletters are BETTER, because their save isn't modified by Strength.

Flamers shoot a hojillion times with high-S, flaming attacks. Razordons cost more than double Flamers, and they can misfire. Flamers would be a bargain at 50 points apiece. Again, a unit of 5 performs like a 250 point unit.

The reason Undead not fleeing is balanced is undead troops are the weakest in the game. A skeleton costs 2x as much as a Clanrat and has INFERIOR stats. You pay a premium for not fleeing. A Bloodletter costs as much as a Grave Guard, has higher I, WS and S, moves faster, has access to better magic banners, and can gain an extremely powerful bonus simply from having a potent combat character in the unit. What does the Grave Guard get? A better save, which is nullified by another with high enough Strength to reliably wound the Guard anyways! A Bloodletter is superior by basically any metric to a Grave Guard and costs the same! AND IT'S CORE! How anyone with an entire brain can look at that and not immediately furrow their brow is unfathomable.

The reason Horrors should be more expensive (and now that I think of it, 20 point apiece would barely be enough), is that you are effectively buying a wizard in a core slot. Wizards are much, much more effective than their points indicate; the natural limit to the amount of characters one can take limits their effectiveness. Horrors take that natural limit, a limit shared by every other army ever printed, and throw it out the window. If I could take three level 2 vampire casters as core-- even Necromancers-- I would do so in a heartbeat, and you would (rightly) cry "broken." And yet a unit of 16 Horrors costs LESS than a hero level vampire with gear, is a level 2 wizard with one of the most powerful lores in the game, and takes up a core slot-- meaning there is no limit to many you can take.

How do you not see any of this? There's no shame in playing a Daemon army (though there's a little shame in claiming to be a skilled general based solely off of your exploits with one) but you need to recognize that your army book is deeply flawed, unbalanced, and disproportionately powerful compared to every other book out there.

Warsmith Tharak
22-10-2009, 07:33
Chaos knights cause fear and the movment is the same.
Grave guard have higher T, witch I think are one of the best stats. They have better save vs missil fire and low strenght attacks, and since you put in a hero, they can be incredible with the helm and a banner. A skeleton VS clanrat: The skeleton can get re-raised, couse fear, imunne to pshycologi and crumbel istead of fleeing. Horrors at level 2 suck... you have a 12 point per model unit with most of the stats of a goblin (excluding daemonic and anomosity), with one short range spell and one extreamly short range spell.
Razordons max out on 10 shots per model, flamers on 6. Razordon can misfire and eat some skinks and flamers can shoot min 1 shoot. Razordon can shoot 20 shoots per in stand and shoot reaction, flamers only 6...

I think you are right that daemons are overpowerd, but I feel your arguments are flawed...

fubukii
22-10-2009, 13:36
The fact that you do not see why your units are broken is making this impossible for me. Your statement that Chaos Knights are even CLOSE to flesh hounds is laughable.
As much as you talk about Instability, the generally high Ld in the army and the prevalence of BSBs means that most players barely lose any models to it. That is not theoryhammer, it is grounded in tens of games worth of experience. Chaos Knights you can break, you can run down, you can cause to flee, or in the case of Khornate ones, you can redirect with bait. Flesh Hounds you have to kill. You have to kill every. last. one. They will never flee. They will never charge bait. Not to mention they are faster than Chaos Knights; they also cause fear, which means they are sometimes immune to charges, and they can win combats without rolling a single die. The idea that they are not worth 50 points each is ridiculous. Five flesh hounds should be a 250 point unit, because it certainly performs like one. MR 2 as a fix is utterly worthless, since it's still high enough to guarantee that they'll almost never be killed by magic.

Also remember, the reason undead troops come back is that undead troops are CRAP. Daemons, even non-combat specific daemons, are superior to undead troops; Daemonettes and Bloodletters are some of the nastiest infantry in the game, AND they don't break. If I could take Grave Guard as Core, I sure would! But Bloodletters are BETTER, because their save isn't modified by Strength.

Flamers shoot a hojillion times with high-S, flaming attacks. Razordons cost more than double Flamers, and they can misfire. Flamers would be a bargain at 50 points apiece. Again, a unit of 5 performs like a 250 point unit.

The reason Undead not fleeing is balanced is undead troops are the weakest in the game. A skeleton costs 2x as much as a Clanrat and has INFERIOR stats. You pay a premium for not fleeing. A Bloodletter costs as much as a Grave Guard, has higher I, WS and S, moves faster, has access to better magic banners, and can gain an extremely powerful bonus simply from having a potent combat character in the unit. What does the Grave Guard get? A better save, which is nullified by another with high enough Strength to reliably wound the Guard anyways! A Bloodletter is superior by basically any metric to a Grave Guard and costs the same! AND IT'S CORE! How anyone with an entire brain can look at that and not immediately furrow their brow is unfathomable.

The reason Horrors should be more expensive (and now that I think of it, 20 point apiece would barely be enough), is that you are effectively buying a wizard in a core slot. Wizards are much, much more effective than their points indicate; the natural limit to the amount of characters one can take limits their effectiveness. Horrors take that natural limit, a limit shared by every other army ever printed, and throw it out the window. If I could take three level 2 vampire casters as core-- even Necromancers-- I would do so in a heartbeat, and you would (rightly) cry "broken." And yet a unit of 16 Horrors costs LESS than a hero level vampire with gear, is a level 2 wizard with one of the most powerful lores in the game, and takes up a core slot-- meaning there is no limit to many you can take.

How do you not see any of this? There's no shame in playing a Daemon army (though there's a little shame in claiming to be a skilled general based solely off of your exploits with one) but you need to recognize that your army book is deeply flawed, unbalanced, and disproportionately powerful compared to every other book out there.

I agree daemons are a powerhouse army just that your particular points/theories are over nerfing/wrong. I will touch on some points.

- chaos knights cause fear as well, yes they dont break but they throw out 15 more attacks, and you wont bait them easily from a good player, as they will have lovely warhounds nearby. They are also much more durable to most shooting unless it is a ignore armor save shot. so basically anything thats not a bolt thrower or a cannon, and i guess a organ gun. but like i said they are more expensive because they are over 100% more deadly in combat. horrors do not perform like a 250pt unit, id say 200 would be more accurate at best.

Undead troops minus zombies/skeletons are not crap. In fact i think Undead as some of the best units in the game when you take into context thier army. Wraiths, Graveguard, bloodknights, ghouls are pretty good units to say the least and the skeleton isnt bad. I bet if my flesh hounds are fighting skeletons that my hounds will be dead, before that skel unit dies. I have played DOC for a long time, in alot of tournaments, And even pre new book. Undead units beat daemonic units minus the plaguebearer block in a war of attrition.

flamers do not shoot a bijillion times once again a huge over statement. On average your 200+ pt unit puts out 21 shots. i can get 30 handgun shots for the same cost. Granted i said flamers are undercosted but you are over exaggerating. if they get lucky and roll very high they can put out alot of shots. By the same token you do not mention when flamers put out Almost no shots, which is equally as likely as putting out a large volume of shots. Ive used flamers in every game and i can tell you there has been games where i have wondered why i took them, and other games where they earned thier worth, its a gamble.

10 horrors are generally alot easier to deal with then a character. they cant hide in units as they are a unit and lose to most other units in combat. granted i admit they could be a couple points higher but i think i would greatly prefer a bound spell over a powerdice any day of the week. the extra magic defense is nice i admit but without it horrors wouldnt be so good. ANd yes they have access to certain spells from a good lore. Flickering fire while a good spell, isnt anything that amazing. on average 4-5 str 4 hits. once again ive used it and i got str 2 hits and str 7. generally though its a gamble sometimes really good other times utterly worthless. ive had times where i get 2 str 7 hits on that fast cav unit and 7 str 2 hits vs that knight unit or steam tank. its a good spell though i admit.

As for other books, there are a couple who match up nicely vs doc.
-vc are almost equal to them
LM are very effective and a tough battle for doc.
DE another pretty even fight, given the right list
Competitive HE builds can compete.
New skaven will be a good match up (granted my 6th ed skaven did fine vs daemons)
Empire (stanks, cannons and waraltars are very effective vs daemons.)
dwarves ( thorek still is better then my whole army, bolt throwers and organ guns still Hurt alot.)

Daemons are a very powerful book, but you are leading on that they are some sort of unbeatable machine that should be almost 50% more expensive per model? thats a bit extreme is all im saying.

JHZ
22-10-2009, 15:18
Can daemons field strong lists? Yes. Are they unstoppable? No, I don't think so. Some armies are worse off agains them that others. O&G have little hope in an average game, while VC combie hordes have swamped my daemons a few times with little hope of an escape.

I would say the main problem is that the army book isn't very balanced. On one hand you got pretty nasty combos and strong units, but on the other you got some units that lack, sometimes on all fronts, like the Daemon Prince. I can only imagine two reasons to take it: Ability to have different magic lores and not being a large target. And those aren't even that good of reasons.

My beef with the army book is that mono-god armies are sometimes one trick ponies. My mono-Slaanesh list is S3 from top to bottom, only Heralds and Fiends having S4. So to get more punch, I'll either have to take non-Slaaneshi units, or a kipper. Another problem is the lack of magic in non-Tzeentch lists (barring Khorne, or course). Nurgle and Slaanesh, without a GD, can field lvl. 1 Heralds and a lvl. 2 DP, which at that point is almost as expensive as a stock GD.


- we can't take shields
We got Ward saves stock. Who needs armour that can be negated?


- we can't take additional hand weapons
We got 'nettes with two attacks.


- we have no great weapons
We have Bloodletters.


- daemonic instability we lose more daemons if we lose combat.
In the old test you could lose the entire unit on a bad roll, now you just loose some models. And it's still better than running away and getting run over by the enemy.


- most units are ld 7
And how often do you roll Ld. tests with daemons?

TheZombieSquig
22-10-2009, 21:14
I cope with obviously broken armies by not playing against them since it's a waste of time and isn't fun.

Totally agree with this.

Yes, it's your money, buy what you want. But don't expect to find anyone to play against if you turn up with a DOC army.

loveless
22-10-2009, 21:23
I'll play against a DOC army. Who the heck cares? I don't...I really don't. Show up, I'll play you - I've got nothing better to do and chances are I'm going to be playing like an idiot anyway.

My Warhammer philosophy for game night play is typically: "Well...let's see what happens if I do this."

Frankly, I'd take "I'm not going to play you - Daemons are broken" as a heck of a snub. Go ahead and turn your backs on the new Daemon player - no one wants to sit at your smelly vet's table anyway :p

You can always get a game with me - just note that if no one else is playing, I am going to ask to switch armies with you from time to time just to get some variety in both of our gaming diets ;)

Einholt
22-10-2009, 21:31
I think it is way too Drastic to say DoC wont get any games.

But the truth is by playing the army you are predisposing yourself to a lower quality of games either through dominating or playing disinterested oppoenents or only playing in a super cutthroat environment.

If that is your thing go for it, but in a more casual and not necessarily uncompetitive environment DoC are not a good army to have if you expect to have an enjoyable time.

That really was the whole point of this thread not to berate demons as broken but to provide evidence as to why people feel they are and why they are justified in turning down a game.

I completely agree that it is your money and you should buy what ever you want with it, but as said earlier that does not mean we have to play and like it. Furthermore in doing so we have shown why and should not be persecuted as some form of facist denying people the enjoyment of their Daemon army. All you guys opposing to our opinion have to say is stop whining, we give proof you still say stop whining and show no evidence that DoC are fair.

The poster asked for why he should or should not play DoC and that's what I at least attempted to answer for him.

thrawn
22-10-2009, 21:33
SIREN SONG IS BROKEN! SIREN SONG IS BROKEN! I'm getting sick of hearing that! I'm not defending DoC, yes they are broken, but Siren Song is not! It is identical (yes IDENTICAL) to the ruin of Challenge in the dwarf book! Read it! Why did no one cry when a dwarf lord forced you to charge his hammerers with your best unit?


I will give you that siren song is flat out broken and skulltaker is underpointed but to say the banner of sundering is Unstoppable is crap. Just take different lores. he cant nerf them all.

flesh hounds would be crap for 50 pts, as would flamers. A chaos knight costs 40 and is better then a flesh hound overal. A flamer could probably be 40pts, but honestly my flamers never seem to do anything worth wild in the shooting phase ;/
15 pts for a horror could be ok. but given thier statline (like a empire guy) you are basically paying 6 pts to gain all its rules which may be slightly under costed.
Hmm alot of the gifts arent really that bad point wise, armor of khorne should probably be 25 pts instead of 15, firestorm blade is basically a pricey sword. of might? Granted siren should be 50 pts.
Instability can be bad, or it can be good. ALot of ppl claim daemons never take more then like 1-2 wounds but i have had whole units poof/greater daemons die to poofing.

And flamers do not ignore shooting penealties my flamers always tend to have to roll 5+ to hit. being skirmishers they move and are normally at long range for a bit, i suggest you reread the daemon book

MasterSparks
22-10-2009, 21:39
Except that the Master Rune of Challenge explicitly states that it has no effect on units that are Immune to Psychology, making the Siren Song that much worse for me as a VC player. :o

fubukii
22-10-2009, 21:44
I think it is way too Drastic to say DoC wont get any games.

But the truth is by playing the army you are predisposing yourself to a lower quality of games either through dominating or playing disinterested oppoenents or only playing in a super cutthroat environment.

If that is your thing go for it, but in a more casual and not necessarily uncompetitive environment DoC are not a good army to have if you expect to have an enjoyable time.

That really was the whole point of this thread not to berate demons as broken but to provide evidence as to why people feel they are and why they are justified in turning down a game.

I completely agree that it is your money and you should buy what ever you want with it, but as said earlier that does not mean we have to play and like it. Furthermore in doing so we have shown why and should not be persecuted as some form of facist denying people the enjoyment of their Daemon army. All you guys opposing to our opinion have to say is stop whining, we give proof you still say stop whining and show no evidence that DoC are fair.

The poster asked for why he should or should not play DoC and that's what I at least attempted to answer for him.

ive given plenty of proof on why daemons arent as bad as people say but you must not of read any of my posts.

On siren song, its only broken because you can have up to 4 in a army, 1 isnt bad but 4 would be. when i say broken i put it in the same category as ring of hotek.

Malorian
22-10-2009, 21:45
Exactly, and with more and more ItP units out there our master runes of challenge are getting more and mreo useless...

JHZ
22-10-2009, 21:56
Except that the Master Rune of Challenge explicitly states that it has no effect on units that are Immune to Psychology, making the Siren Song that much worse for me as a VC player. :o
And it's not like the Dwarfs have a greater daemon waiting at the other end.

As pretty as a Gnoblar
22-10-2009, 22:06
Maybe its the mazohist in me,but i love playing against Daemons.

I just love fighting an uphill battle,where every kill is paid in blood,every standard has to be taken by force from their little deformed greddy hands,every rank removed by......(well you get the point)

Oh,and I play Ogres by the way.:p

Grimstonefire
22-10-2009, 22:13
An idea worth considering I think: GW specifically designed the DoC book to be more balanced in mixed armies. They did not balance it so all the individual mono god builds were good (some are though).

May seem obvious, but comments about the 'one trick pony' mono god lists should be seen as facts, not compaints (i.e. 'some mono god lists are one trick ponies' = fact, 'isn't it stupid that they designed the list so some mono god lists are one trick ponies' = an invalid complaint, interestesting but not really relevant). The list is not designed to be anything other than average as mono god imo, it's not really intended to be played that way.

A valid complaint would be that they should have done it this way from the start, not that it's bad the way it is (if you know what I mean).

It would be like me building a dwarf army with only thunderers, cannons and organ guns. It is a theme, but it is not how the book is supposed to be balanced.

Just a thought. :)

Awilla the Hun
22-10-2009, 22:21
Firstly, as the original poster is probably many thousands of miles away from most of us, it's probably none of our business whether he plays daemons or not.

Secondly, as the commander of Comrade von Stahl's Red Guards, I know that every single game I play is a moral victory, because I have so much fun doing the battles, and writing them up. (That is, if I get to fight the enemy properly, in hand to hand, or at least arrow to arrow, rather than massed magery to a handful of dispel dice.) I would, and have, gladly play a Daemon army as long as it didn't make my troops all leg it by its sheer presence coupled with magical weirdness, or blast everything off the board with repeated volleys of Tzeentchian magical fire. It is a little irritating having a non frenzied Khorne enemy, but I can swing a sword at a Bloodletter .(Their charge is extremely annoying, but hey.) I could shoot a rain of flaming arrows at Nurgle daemons (A big rain, to be sure, if I want to kill any, but still a rain.) If my troops aren't all fleeing, I could engage in a sort of resistance against a Slaneeshi enemy, and-if I charge them-possibly kill quite a few. If I had more light cavalry, I could potentially tie down the Horrors and Flamers with expendable units so as something more substantial can engage them.

This, as far as I am concerned, makes the Daemon army a foe that can be out manouvered, lured aside with traps, crushed with flanking charges, slowed with march blockers (although not too much, because those infernal bloodletters move so quickly) and ultimately fought against with conventional means. Yes, certain elements of the Daemon Codex are exceptionally powerful. But they can, ultimately, be resisted by a sufficiently (which is to say, extremely) competent player.

Another point of comparison for those people arguing about Daemonic gifts: Bretonnian Virtues increase in points cost whenever you get them for your characters, but they can be bought multiple times.

Malorian
22-10-2009, 22:23
Another point of comparison for those people arguing about Daemonic gifts: Bretonnian Virtues increase in points cost whenever you get them for your characters, but they can be bought multiple times.

But only some one crazy enough to do a peasant army would even need to take the same vow more than once ;)

selone
22-10-2009, 22:52
I would much rather play against demon's than invoc spam or thorek gunline :) The ItP, instability, gods mixing, ward save doesn't bother me. I just think demon's are underpointed is all :)

Certain things about the army are very irritating, but its not the army's abilities as much, I don't mind playing them though the leadership bomb is very irritating :)

I'm not saying its their best build but irritating it is :)

JHZ
22-10-2009, 22:58
Just a thought. :)
I wasn't complaning per se, merely that this whole "take what ever you want" list build stinks of two things: 1) lazy writing and 2) "ka-ching!"

In the old Storm of Chaos list you could mix different gods, but it also had its limits. You had to have an Undivided general, one that would bring the different gods together. That meant no GD's. Either you do a mono-god list, or a mix, but forego some luxuries. So mono-god lists had to work on their own, since you couldn't expect everyone to just not take a GD, and mixed armies were more powerful than monos.

So with the new one they just went "$@ it" and made it all available. Which, for starters, pretty much kicks everything I've ever known about Chaos square on the balls. Why are champions like Archaon and Be'lakor undivided, if the gods'll pool their resourced to anyone, no matter who they serve. I have to say, that when Lord of Change teleports flesh hounds or Kipper leads plague beasts in a charge, that little believer inside of me died.

But anyway, as I was saying, the whole list feels like it was made with no regard for the fluff. Everything was just balanced out (or at least tried to be balanced) inside the codex with no limitations to anything. I can understand this with many things, but come on, just because they're daemons doesn't mean they're on the same side (the whole realm of Chaos is basically 4 "nations" side by side, duking it out for dominion). Imagine squeezing high and wood elves into the same army book and balancing them between each other. Sure, you can have your "themed" army of just wood elves or high elves, or the one which the book was made to support, the one where elves fight as one.


And the "ka-ching". That comes from this tin foil hat thinking: GW doesn't just want new customers, they also want to keep milking the old ones as well. So everyone who has played with the old mono-god oriented lists are set, so in order to make money off of them, they're made either to try and coup, or get some more daemons to expand their armies into multi-god territory in order to retain the usefulness of their armies.


Ok, that sounds a lot like complaining. Hmm... Darn it, I can't help it. I'm not angry, merely... disappointed, really. I do like the book in general, I just find it lacking on how I liked to play my army and is forcing me to redo the whole thing.

Goblin Gonads
22-10-2009, 23:01
I've read all this thread with interest, a number of the comments are about gettin games and finding opponents willing to play against DoC which leads me to think that thee games are at what 1000-2,000 points?

My question really is do you think DoC become easier to play against in larger battles? Ok so you are more likely to find yourself facing more than one greater daemon, but a 5-6000 points most armies have access to some pretty good stuff. Does this level the playing field at all?

selone
22-10-2009, 23:18
DoC are probably not great at 1000, but they don't need 2000 to be good.

fubukii
22-10-2009, 23:22
doc can be pretty good at 1k if you purposesly cheese out your list with things that are good in 1k (like taking 3 khorne heralds would be pretty cheesey)

but if you take say 1 khorne herald 1 tz herald the list should be pretty fair.

ChaosVC
23-10-2009, 09:57
Ask your friend, how will they feel fighting a DOC army if you care, if not just get them.

Ixquic
23-10-2009, 13:52
Master Rune of Challenge and Siren Song look similar on paper but are very different. Dwarves move max, 6" so it's a lot easier to avoid than a Greater Demon that move 20" or a unit that can march 12". On top of that Greater Demons cause terror so when combined with the Banner of Despair and Masque you can force someone to take a terror check from across the field (depending on the unit's change range) and make it flee off the board first turn which I've seen happen several times. If you even GET into combat not much can beat a Keeper of Secrets in hand to hand and what can isn't going to be targeted. The fact that it works on ItP and the dumb way they faqed it means that those units don't even get the choice of fleeing so they are forced to charge against something that is ASF with 7 strength 6 attacks. While Dwarf Lords can be nasty in close combat they are not on the level of Demon characters.

I'll play against demon lists if a friend has something he's working on or if I'm REALLY itching for a game and that's all that available. However if someone starts unpacking Fateweaver and 3 heralds on flying chariots or a Keeper, the Masque and a BSB on Juggernaut I'll just tell the person that he wins and find another game. It's not that I'm scared of losing (like anyone I win and lose and deal with it since it's part of the game). However when there's a severe discrepancy on the type of game we're playing it's just not going to be fun and I play a game to have fun. The demon book has just so much good stuff that is so obvious that you almost can't help yourself but throw together a 'ard boys styled list.


I've read all this thread with interest, a number of the comments are about gettin games and finding opponents willing to play against DoC which leads me to think that thee games are at what 1000-2,000 points?

My question really is do you think DoC become easier to play against in larger battles? Ok so you are more likely to find yourself facing more than one greater daemon, but a 5-6000 points most armies have access to some pretty good stuff. Does this level the playing field at all?

Pretty much everything in the army is under-costed so really the high the point value, the more "savings" you'll get being able to fit in more good stuff. Since there's no limit to gifts you can pull even more multiples of the best abilities as well while other armies will quickly run out of character builds. Demons are probably the best army at higher point values.

thrawn
23-10-2009, 19:30
i'm sorry Ixquic but i disagree. siren song and ruin of challange are the same on paper as they are in practice. ever had your fast cavalry forced to charge a unit of handgunners just to get shot to pieces? and yes i have had my general unit, all tooled up, forced to charge hammerers with a killer lord who then ate my unit for lunch. so i definitely disagree with you. maybe other aspects of DoC can make siren song more effective for them then the ruin of challange, but they are the exact same thing. overall DoC are not over the top, they just need point increases and the games can definitely be evened up. my 2 cents!:cool:

Grimstonefire
23-10-2009, 19:46
Would you prefer the content stayed pretty much the same and there was a points increase (targetted to specific things), or that the whole list was modified to make things actually worth the points they are now?

It's a tough one to balance that I think. Ideally you don't want daemons to be so expensive armies are too small (but still hard), but you also don't want them nerfed too much.

Einholt
23-10-2009, 20:51
i'm sorry Ixquic but i disagree. siren song and ruin of challange are the same on paper as they are in practice. ever had your fast cavalry forced to charge a unit of handgunners just to get shot to pieces? and yes i have had my general unit, all tooled up, forced to charge hammerers with a killer lord who then ate my unit for lunch. so i definitely disagree with you. maybe other aspects of DoC can make siren song more effective for them then the ruin of challange, but they are the exact same thing. overall DoC are not over the top, they just need point increases and the games can definitely be evened up. my 2 cents!:cool:

Yea... you don't know what you are talking about.

The fact that other elements contributes to it is a huge factor, but in addition the very wording of Being able to target ITP unit and furthermore FORCING them to charge makes it hands down better not to mention you can have more then one quite easily.....