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Lord Wasa
21-10-2009, 20:28
So I was flipping through my newly bought DE-codex and took a look at the Scourges (jump pack dudes who can carry heavy weapons:wtf:). Upon doing so I thought, "Hm, I wonder if these were any better 11 years ago?". And then I thought "Heh, I wonder how much of the stuff we call crap once was the big red auto-win button?".
So pray tell, oh ye venerated veterans, enlighten us of how today's retirees (is that a word?once were feared by the universe of 40K.

'cause I'm bored and want some entertainment:D

Vishok
21-10-2009, 20:33
Space Wolf Cyclones.

They used to be ignorant. In 2nd Edition, it was possible to have an entire unit of Wolf Guard Terminators equipped with Cyclone and Assault Cannon. They could fire both, and the cyclone could rip the largest template and pretty much annihilate everything underneath.

Now...well it's just a regular missile launcher.

primarch16
21-10-2009, 20:42
Daemons in the chaos space marine codex. Bloodletters and daemonettes used to be rightly feared, though you're average daemon now is a bit of a pushover.

Murphey
21-10-2009, 20:42
CC rending used to be good. Then wound allocation in 5th made it so you could put all rending hits on one nekked sergeant.

Venom Cannons used to be used for Anti-Tank. Now, they can't even kill a Rhino.

Thornback and Symbiotic Rippers used to actually do something, no more.

Flesh hooks used to allow you to cling to walls, but the rule about having to be able to physically place a model somewhere for it to move there removed that.

Necron gauss weapons used to be able to kill vehicles. In fact, Necrons had one of the best all around anti-tank in the game. Now they have probably the worst next to Tyranids.

Spore mines used to be really good anti tank. Now they just give away Killpoints.

Howling banshees used to strike at I10 when charging into cover. Now, due to the wording of their masks, they strike at I1.

Orks w/ grenades used to go simultaneously with the enemy if they charged a unit that was in cover, even if the enemy had initiative 10. Now, they go at I3.

There's a ton of things, I could honestly keep going.

~Murphey

Lion El Jason
21-10-2009, 20:44
Space Wolf Cyclones.

They used to be ignorant. In 2nd Edition, it was possible to have an entire unit of Wolf Guard Terminators equipped with Cyclone and Assault Cannon. They could fire both, and the cyclone could rip the largest template and pretty much annihilate everything underneath.

Now...well it's just a regular missile launcher.

This was never legal.

But Cyclones, yes. used to be awesome, now just average.

IJW
21-10-2009, 21:15
Cyclones from 2nd edition isn't a good example, because it's effectively a separate game. Likewise, units that have been re-done - by definition you're talking about a different unit.

Back on topic, Scourges were never very good, even in 3rd edition because of move OR fire. :(

To add to Murphey's excellent list would be Harlequins - not that they are by any means crap now, but much of their insane power in 4th has been lost to counter-charge moves and being able to remove casualties from anywhere in the unit.

marv335
21-10-2009, 21:27
Yup, Harlequins have gone, in my area at least, from being in everyones list, to being in no-ones.
They went from clearing the kill zone and jumping out, to being the kill-zone ;)

Corpse
21-10-2009, 21:30
Chaos 3.5 codex.
Noise Marine Dreadnought / Predator / Terminators (etc).
Kroot mercenary army.
LatD.
VDR.
Leman Russ primarch model, Exterminator etc.

The money lost. The money forced to be spent...

Blizzinam
21-10-2009, 21:33
The TLLC turret & Heavy bolter sponsons predator due to the change in defensive weapons.

Isambard
21-10-2009, 21:43
2nd edition Warp Spiders. They were fething awesome!

Take the heavy flamer template (midway between a normal flamer and the apocalypse one). Every model underneath must take an I test or be hit (-1I if you were fully under the template, I think). If you were hit, make a save at -2 or die.

If you survive, all subsequent Death Spinner shots will auto hit. You could easily force a model to make 5 or so saves, and 1 fail was an auto-kill.

Egaeus
21-10-2009, 21:45
So I was flipping through my newly bought DE-codex and took a look at the Scourges (jump pack dudes who can carry heavy weapons:wtf:). Upon doing so I thought, "Hm, I wonder if these were any better 11 years ago?". And then I thought "Heh, I wonder how much of the stuff we call crap once was the big red auto-win button?".
So pray tell, oh ye venerated veterans, enlighten us of how today's retirees (is that a word?once were feared by the universe of 40K.

'cause I'm bored and want some entertainment:D

Scourges were never that good, as mentioned, due to the move-or-fire nature of heavy weapons (although IIRC there is one assault weapon option for them). If they redesigned them now and gave them Relentless they would be awesome (or made more of their weapons Assault).

Don't play DE, but been playing Soulstorm recently so have gained a bit of appreciation for the DE. I always liked the concept of Scourges (basically fast-moving Devastators) but the rules make them not so great...




The money lost. The money forced to be spent...

GW showed up at your house and put bolt pistol to your head and said "buy our stuff"? I've heard of aggressive marketing but this is ridiculous! :wtf::p

Sorry, a comment like that I couldn't resist...my response tends to be "that's what you get for playing flavor-of-the-month lists"...

Murphey provides a good starter list of things that have become less good if not outright worthless...but I want to hasten to add that this tends to be as much an issue of paradigm change within the game as specific changes to certain units/models/rules etc...I would hope that as each army gets a proper book for the current edition we'll see most of these problems dealt with. Of course this doesn't mean that GW won't do their typical "balancing act" of making things that were really good not so good and things that weren't so good must-haves. Unfortuantely that seems to be part of their philosophy to move product.

Thanghul
21-10-2009, 21:51
I thought all Jump Infantry had relentless. Not that I have seen DE in years, and well my Jump wouldn't benefit from it anyway...

megatrons2nd
21-10-2009, 22:24
Nope, just Jet pack jump infantry get relentless.

Melchiah
21-10-2009, 22:30
Starcannons got a good nerfing.

Baggers
21-10-2009, 22:32
Vortex grenades and Graviton Guns were insane in 2nd edition. 3rd edition was the edition of the Rhino rush army that is still there but not to the extent that it was used in 3rd.

CULCHAIN
21-10-2009, 22:37
Exactly the paradigm changes, in third edition vehicles were rare; because back then just pivoting a vehicle counted as movement.

not including transports

Rimmerman
21-10-2009, 22:45
Kroot being able to see and shoot through 12 inches of woods, now over-ridden by the LOS rule.

Rimmerman.

megatrons2nd
21-10-2009, 23:01
Kroot being able to see and shoot through 12 inches of woods, now over-ridden by the LOS rule.

Rimmerman.

I thought that it now refered to the 2" from the edge of area terrain granting cover to the target. Example: a Tau unit in a wooded area terrain piece would grant a cover save to the target ork unit for any model that has to shoot through more than 2" of said terrain. Conversely the Kroot would not because they can see through 12" of said terrain.

Bunnahabhain
22-10-2009, 00:45
Guard plasma guns...
Once upon a time, our T3, 5+ save guys could get plasma guns for only 10pts, you couldn't move for marines, aka perfect targets, and cover saves were so much rarer and less good.

But now, we're overrun by cheap troops, with cover saves everywhere, but Plasma guns had to go up, up up...

Raibaru
22-10-2009, 00:46
I love scourges. Sure they had lances, which is the heavy weapon you're talking of. But they come with splinter cannons (or could buy them? It's been awhile)... which were assault 4 or something if memory serves. With what was it, 4, in a unit? They could really lay down some hurt. I believe in 3rd you could hide them behind a unit of warriors and shoot at the enemy, correct? They honestly weren't that bad.

Thousand Sons would be my contribution to this thread. One of the most unique and fun units in the game down to one of the absolute worst in existance. Over priced now considering the cover rule with no real reason to justify it.

They used to be like 2 wound, and couldn't be harmed by s4 or less gunfire.

rabblerouser
22-10-2009, 01:04
Melta guns... they were so awesome in 5th edition but got nerfed big time in 6th


... oh wait that hasn't happened yet

Kulgur
22-10-2009, 02:14
I love scourges. Sure they had lances, which is the heavy weapon you're talking of. But they come with splinter cannons (or could buy them? It's been awhile)... which were assault 4 or something if memory serves. With what was it, 4, in a unit? They could really lay down some hurt. I believe in 3rd you could hide them behind a unit of warriors and shoot at the enemy, correct? They honestly weren't that bad.

5 Scourges with 4 splinter cannons = 160pts minimum
16 BS4 Str4 AP5 shots at 24"

1 Ravager with 3 disintegrators = 120pts
9 BS4 Str4 AP3 shots at 24" OR 3 BS4 Blasts at 36" Str7 AP2

Epicenter
22-10-2009, 03:35
Any of the high Initiative and low-save CC units. Harlequins have already been mentioned as being able to kill a "circle" around themselves to avoid taking return hits, but you used to be able to do the same trick with Death-Cult Assassins for Inquisition armies. The CSM heroes, notably Abbaddon used to able to do the same thing.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the dreaded Skimmers Moving Fast (SMF) rule which turned Falcons and Hammerheads (but more Falcons) into nearly indestructible cheesemobiles. Likewise, Fish of Fury used to work really well because of the idiotic skimmer rules of "I can shoot you, but you can't shoot me." Tau battlesuits used to abuse area terrain for LOLs, now they can't.

The Vanquisher used to be good because it used to be able to fire a large blast. Imperial Guard vox networks used to actually do something.

Anything with Rending, in particular, massed assault cannons, genestealers, or Harlequins used to be the bee's knees. Now? Not so much.

3rd edition was all about the Rhino Rush. Drive over the enemy, jump out, assault, then consolidate into another assault.

Remember when Force Weapons actually did something?

Back in 3rd edition, Inquisitor Lords tooled up for CC were really good because ... okay, I'm lying on that last one. They never were good at CC.

Phyros
22-10-2009, 04:05
My lovingly built and painted Salamanders Comapny, in which all of the Tac squads (7) have flamer/special weapon combo.

It's an army I finished years ago and due to the current Marine codex it's not really playable because "Tac squad = heavy/special weapon always-no-ifs-and-or-buts-about-it."

Absolutionis
22-10-2009, 04:21
Pre-Codex 3rd Edition Thousand Sons were immune to anything less that S5. That was really amazing.

Giganthrax
22-10-2009, 04:23
The way I hear it, Land Raiders used to be considered a "fun unit" and a "waste of points". Same with assault terminators.

Nowadays, they absolutely rock.

solkan
22-10-2009, 04:26
5 Scourges with 4 splinter cannons = 160pts minimum
16 BS4 Str4 AP5 shots at 24"

1 Ravager with 3 disintegrators = 120pts
9 BS4 Str4 AP3 shots at 24" OR 3 BS4 Blasts at 36" Str7 AP2

What's your point? Despite GW's efforts, there are still non-MEQ players. :rolleyes:

Absolutionis
22-10-2009, 04:44
The way I hear it, Land Raiders used to be considered a "fun unit" and a "waste of points". Same with assault terminators.

Nowadays, they absolutely rock.Ah yes, back in 3rd, plasma was so prevalent that terminators were pretty much expensive space marines. This was before they had the innate 5++ save and way before they got the 3++ storm shields.

Alessander
22-10-2009, 05:04
Yea, in 3rd ed there were no invulnerable saves for pretty much anything. They had to errata the Terminators to give them the 5+ save.

Leman Russ Vanquishers were so good pretty a ton of people modeled their leman russes with long barrels just to make them into Vanquishers.

Dire Avengers used to suck until the last codex. Baharoth keeps getting crappier with each edition of the Eldar Codex. In 3rd he (and the Hawk exarch) had this awesome rule where each time he hit in combat, he could hit again, and keeps hitting until he misses. I once scored something like 38 hits in one round of combat. It also made him instantly destroy any vehicles, due to auto-hitting.

Grey Knights (originally only Terminators) were absolute gods on the tabletop. A single squad of them could tear through an entire Space Hulk game with Patriarchs and everything.

Then there's the stuff no longer around - imperial Robots, Imperial jetbike squads, Imperial Guard bikers, mole mortars, and things that forgeworld is starting to redo like slaughterfiends etc. personally can't wait for a forgeworld cannon of khorne.

Putty
22-10-2009, 07:53
Melta guns... they were so awesome in 5th edition but got nerfed big time in 6th


... oh wait that hasn't happened yet

Yeah, I think we all should see that coming.

Prolly replaced with Plasma madness... or back to Lascannons again...

NightrawenII
22-10-2009, 08:35
Everything what I want said is pretty much covered.:wtf:

LR Vanquisher with co-axial autocannon, veteran crew and actually effective cannon was good Anti-tank, his current incarnation is a little meh.

Force weapons, they want hard-to-kill characters and forgot about daemons.:eyebrows:

Librarians and Chaplains get nerfed a little.

SM veterans are now shining (well, Sternguard do).

Shuricen Catapults, enough said.

C: CSM 3.5, enough said.:cheese:

IJW
22-10-2009, 08:37
What's your point? Despite GW's efforts, there are still non-MEQ players. :rolleyes:
His point (I assume) is that Ravagers are only 33% more expensive per shot (less if you include the cost of the Splinter Rifle models) but are more durable than T3/5+, are more flexible due to what are effectively Plasma Cannon blasts, and can move faster if need be.

starlight
22-10-2009, 09:04
Yea, in 3rd ed there were no invulnerable saves for pretty much anything. They had to errata the Terminators to give them the 5+ save.

Actually no.

There was no *errata*, Terminators were given the 5+ Inv Save back in 3rd Ed because no one was fielding them...thus they weren't selling. The Studio was told to *do something*, and since lowering points wasn't an option back in the day, and the biggest issue was see to be the abundance of cheap Plasma Weapons, Terminators were given a neat little story about a Terminator (Space Wolf I believe) who survived being stepped on by a Titan and should really have an Inv Save. This was all explained in an issue of Chapter Approved...which I may still have around here somewhere...:angel:

alex03
22-10-2009, 09:15
Actually no.

There was no *errata*, Terminators were given the 5+ Inv Save back in 3rd Ed because no one was fielding them...thus they weren't selling. The Studio was told to *do something*, and since lowering points wasn't an option back in the day, and the biggest issue was see to be the abundance of cheap Plasma Weapons, Terminators were given a neat little story about a Terminator (Space Wolf I believe) who survived being stepped on by a Titan and should really have an Inv Save. This was all explained in an issue of Chapter Approved...which I may still have around here somewhere...:angel:

If I remember right in 2nd edition you could buy terminiators refractor fields (5+inv) for them. So they just carried this over into 3rd edition when they realized how much terminators sucked. Hell even with a 5+ inv they still sucked, but at least they tried.

Milkshaker
22-10-2009, 09:30
This was never legal.

But Cyclones, yes. used to be awesome, now just average.

Haha, Im glad im not the only guy who thought of that combo!

How was this not legal? If I recall correctly (im at work atm and dont have the 2nd ed. dex with me), a cyclone was a terminator special weapon, and an assault cannon was a terminator heavy weapon. a wolf guard equipped with terminator armour could choose weapons from both (again, if I recall correctly)

IJW
22-10-2009, 09:31
Try 'technically legal but the Design Studio staff said it was stupid and wasn't supposed to be possible'.

Bloodknight
22-10-2009, 13:26
Guard plasma guns...
Once upon a time, our T3, 5+ save guys could get plasma guns for only 10pts, you couldn't move for marines, aka perfect targets, and cover saves were so much rarer and less good.

In early 3rd edition you could get 10 Guardsmen with Lascannon and Plasmagun for 70 points, and command squads with 4 Plasma for 50. That was fearsome.

Whitehorn
22-10-2009, 14:10
Khorne Chaos Lords with S5 Lighting Claws. Bring it on Mr. Wraithlord.

Someone already said it, but I lament... Blood letters in CSM.

I remember some exarch sword that granted more attacks escalating into craziness.

Scy
22-10-2009, 14:25
Khorne Chaos Lords with S5 Lighting Claws. Bring it on Mr. Wraithlord.

Someone already said it, but I lament... Blood letters in CSM.

I remember some exarch sword that granted more attacks escalating into craziness.

Baharroth, went from being the best PL to the worst :D

SnakeWind
22-10-2009, 14:36
Guard heavy weapon teams.
They were very nice to play with. But now...:eyebrows:

Gutlord Grom
22-10-2009, 14:40
Guard heavy weapon teams.
They were very nice to play with. But now...:eyebrows:
It isn't that big of a deal, in my opinion. They're still dirt cheap compared to a lot of heavy weapon options, with a little bit less survivability.

polymphus
22-10-2009, 14:47
There was no *errata*, Terminators were given the 5+ Inv Save back in 3rd Ed because no one was fielding them...thus they weren't selling. The Studio was told to *do something*, and since lowering points wasn't an option back in the day, and the biggest issue was see to be the abundance of cheap Plasma Weapons, Terminators were given a neat little story about a Terminator (Space Wolf I believe) who survived being stepped on by a Titan and should really have an Inv Save. This was all explained in an issue of Chapter Approved...which I may still have around here somewhere...

I sold it online a while back so I can't check, but wasn't there something in the old 2nd edition wargear book about Terminator armour having a tiny, tiny piece of the Emperor's own armour in the cross on the shoulder pad, which explained the 5++ save?

Don't know about stuff that was actually good, but I remember the panic when the rules for the railgun were unveiled. S10 with a 72" range? That's better than a lascannon! To the forums!

Enderel
22-10-2009, 14:50
Not really rubbish now, but rather diminished from their high point of usefulness, defender guardians with starcannons. Was a really cheap option with minimal bodies (5 or 6 I usually took) and a starcannon.

Asymmetric
22-10-2009, 15:49
looted basilisks and Nazdreg with his pimp'n BS 4 plasma cannon are completely absent from the Ork codex. In terms of stuff thats actually went from decent to bad, I'd say flash gitz. They weren't bad last edition with the old dex.



In addition:

...

The Necron Codex.

...

:evilgrin:

AndrewGPaul
22-10-2009, 16:19
I sold it online a while back so I can't check, but wasn't there something in the old 2nd edition wargear book about Terminator armour having a tiny, tiny piece of the Emperor's own armour in the cross on the shoulder pad, which explained the 5++ save?

No. In 1st and 2nd editions, Terminator Captains had a fragment of the Emperor's armour in their Crux Terminatus.

Terminators in 1st ed could also be upgraded to carry refractor fields (5+ unmodified save), but that was unconnected. Traitor terminators could also do that.

In 2nd edition, they had a 3+ save on 2D6, which still gave them a save of 9+ against a lascannon shot. In any case, that fragment of the Emperor's armour is still present as of 5th edition.

Fist of Crimson
22-10-2009, 19:12
in 3rd Ed Blood Angels Death Company were pretty evil. Now more of a mild discomfort.

I have memories of 2nd Edition Eldar Avatars being an absolute git to kill off too.

Badger[Fr]
22-10-2009, 19:25
Guard heavy weapon teams.
They were very nice to play with. But now...
The old HWT were hardly better. If anything, they were more expensive and yet barely more survivable.

don_mondo
22-10-2009, 19:29
Callidus Assassin. While still decent, she's not the terror of the table she once was, primarily due to the charge reaction rule.

Epicenter
22-10-2009, 22:37
In 2nd edition, they had a 3+ save on 2D6, which still gave them a save of 9+ against a lascannon shot. In any case, that fragment of the Emperor's armour is still present as of 5th edition.

If you're talking about 2nd, almost everything was better in 2nd edition in regards to lethality. Terminators were terrible because they'd still get save mods that would frequently make their armor pointless. Ork Mega-Armor was where it was at. I don't remember specifics, I think it was that Mega-Armor had some fall-back save or something where their save was always 2+ on 1d6 or something.

Maine
22-10-2009, 22:53
;4062780']The old HWT were hardly better. If anything, they were more expensive and yet barely more survivable.

The new HWT (not squads, just the model) can also be used to absorb a wound and prevent a morale test.

I used to take 2x Stormtroopers (1 full w/ flamer, 1 minimal w/ plasma or melta), even in smaller games (as Elites; not using doctrines).

Now I might take a near-minimum melta squad, in a 2000 pt game.

Lion El Jason
22-10-2009, 22:54
The way I hear it, Land Raiders used to be considered a "fun unit" and a "waste of points". Same with assault terminators.

Nowadays, they absolutely rock.

Tell me about it... I played Deathwing in 3rd ed before 5++ before Machine Spirit, before crusaders and with 52 points per model terminators!


Haha, Im glad im not the only guy who thought of that combo!

How was this not legal? If I recall correctly (im at work atm and dont have the 2nd ed. dex with me), a cyclone was a terminator special weapon, and an assault cannon was a terminator heavy weapon. a wolf guard equipped with terminator armour could choose weapons from both (again, if I recall correctly)


Try 'technically legal but the Design Studio staff said it was stupid and wasn't supposed to be possible'.

It was never legal in any way. There was a rule at the time (I'll check my 2nd ed rulebook) that said a model may only carry 1 heavy weapon. Thus it was not legal to carry a CML and assault cannon because they were both in the Heavy Weapon section of the wargear book.

Phyros
23-10-2009, 01:00
Unique models that you can no longer use.

I have a few veteran Sgts, one armed with a Combi-Melta, several with storm bolters, and even one with a Thunder Hammer.

Librarian with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield.

Deathwing Chaplain with Crozious and Chainfist.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the new codex does not allow for those loadouts anymore. :(

Lord Caldera
23-10-2009, 03:48
I miss my Khorne army from the original printing of the 3.5 codex. T/S5 Obliterators. Daemonic Rune Kharn. And of course my cavalry-moving Daemonic Stature Khorne Lord with berserker glaive, axe of khorne, furious charge and rage of khorne. 7+D3 S6 and I6 attacks on the charge, and every 6 gave me another attack, and then consolidate into another combat after passing a Ld10 Mastery check... One game he and Kharn carved almost unaided through 2000pts of cameleoline Guard infantry and met in a combat in the center of the table. Gods I miss that kind of thing, except when my lord chased Falcons around the table.

big squig
23-10-2009, 05:27
Genestealers...
Went from -3 armor save, to power weapons, to rending, to nerfed rending...all while getting more expensive!

Jayden63
23-10-2009, 05:29
The humble forest. Remember when you could actually hide something that you didn't want shot. Sure it was only a group of 4 trees shorter than a wraithlord, but it acted as if it was infinity tall and blocked all LOS. Now 40K landscape is nothing more than a rolling plain with a shrub or two here and there.

starlight
23-10-2009, 17:01
So quit being lazy and build some LOS blocking terrain... :rolleyes:

Thud
23-10-2009, 17:17
Vypers with Crystal Targeting Matrix.

I used to hate going against them. Now CTM is gone and Vypers are a bit meh. :(

Murrithius
23-10-2009, 17:19
Ork Mega-Armor was where it was at. I don't remember specifics, I think it was that Mega-Armor had some fall-back save or something where their save was always 2+ on 1d6 or something.

It was a modifiable 2+ save on 1d6, and if you failed that, you had an unmodifiable 4+ save as well, due to the 'BILT IN MEDY-SQUIG'!

Not to mention the various weapons available, from bolters, to plasma guns...

Fobster
23-10-2009, 18:48
No. In 1st and 2nd editions, Terminator Captains had a fragment of the Emperor's armour in their Crux Terminatus.

Terminators in 1st ed could also be upgraded to carry refractor fields (5+ unmodified save), but that was unconnected. Traitor terminators could also do that.

In 2nd edition, they had a 3+ save on 2D6, which still gave them a save of 9+ against a lascannon shot. In any case, that fragment of the Emperor's armour is still present as of 5th edition.
yep. Since terminators rolled 2 dice it was noted in its description that it could withstand shots from even the heaviest weapons on the battlefield, the armour would even be proof against a lascannon so a invulnerable save is warranted to give it comparable protection to what it originally offered.

Vishok
23-10-2009, 19:01
This was never legal.

But Cyclones, yes. used to be awesome, now just average.

Alas, you are wrong sir.

Page 60, Codex Space Wolves (from 2nd ed of 40k, 1st ed codex Space Wolves since it was the first codex ever), under Wolf Guard entry - may replace its power armour and weapons for Terminator armour....if you choose this option, you must also select one Terminator Weapon and one Terminator special weapon for each model. See Wargear lists.

And a quick jaunt over to p55 of the same volume, the aforementioned wargear lists - Terminator Weapons lists Assault Cannon, Terminator Special Weapons lists Cyclone Missile Launcher.

There is no ban against having only one heavy weapon (move or fire, you mean) in either the Rulebook or the Wargear book.

So, despite anything the design studio said, this is expressly allowed by the wording of the book.

It was probably the most idiot unit in the entire game, and you can't wish it away. This is the dark secret of the design studio - a glaring combo that is expressly permitted in the book.

But lets be fair, they wanted to sell some freshly minted Wolf Guard Terminators.

PhalanxLord
23-10-2009, 19:20
Genestealers...
Went from -3 armor save, to power weapons, to rending, to nerfed rending...all while getting more expensive!

Really? Here I was thinking 28pts (2nd) was more than 20pts(3rd BBB) which was more than 16pts(3rd). Perhaps my math is bad, but it seems to me like they've been getting cheaper rather than more expensive, though they were definitely hurt really hard by the rending nerf.

The Anarchist
23-10-2009, 20:03
farseer pyschic powers in msot edditions, now totaly outclassed by all other psychers eg space wolves and Ultramarines.

ReveredChaplainDrake
23-10-2009, 23:49
Tyranid Gaunt hordes. The Tyranid horde used to be feared because they could pull down Marines through attrition. Now, with the changes to combat resolution and the removal of the No Retreat 3-save-maximum, the opposite is true. Similarly, Hormagaunts went from mildly overpriced to ridiculously overpriced when they couldn't even hold up a unit they charged.

Markerlights. You'd think with the prevalence of cover, they'd be more useful. Unfortunately, the prevalence of cover doesn't help as much as you'd think unless you have a ton of Markerlight hits to burn. Cover improvements only mean that the things you want to use Markerlights against have become more numerous. (The +1 BS has always been the de-facto effect of the Markerlight hit.)

Suffer Not the Unclean To Live. One of the lesser-taken Templar vows, this used to be one of my favorites. This was because copious amounts of Neophytes could mitigate the initiative difference, while the Initiates could swing later and better. This made them absurdly good against non-standard Initiatives. Plus, Frag Grenades used to mean simultaneous attacking, so if you charged out of a Crusader into cover, you got all the benefits of the vow without the penalties. Suffer Not also worked on Monstrous Creatures and Independent Characters, unlike the then-substantially-situational Accept Any Challenges vow. What happened? Preferred Enemy changed. Now, there is no other vow.

Any Tyranid with Rending Claws. Say what you will about the original Rending rules, but the Tyranids were actually appropriately priced for their Rending. Nowadays, you just look at Rending and sigh because you're paying a 4th ed premium for a 5th ed nerfed rule. (No offense to Dark Eldar, Tau, Necrons, and Inquisition, but this is why Tyranids are getting their Codex next.)

All Chaos Daemons, particularly Epidemius lists. There was a brief stint in 4th ed where there was a 5th ed Daemons codex but no 5th ed rulebook. (This is why I consider 5th ed unique in that Space Marines weren't the first true 5th ed book.) Back then, you had the inverse of the Tyranid problem above: Daemonettes who paid a 5th ed discount for the 4th ed psycho rule. Then there was Feel No Pain, which AP2 weapons couldn't strip away. In fact, the only ranged weapons that could beat Feel No Pain were Railguns and Demolisher Cannons. So much of the Daemons codex was so very, very ridiculous. But then 5th edition came out at last and we all finally understood. Now, Daemons are just kinda' mediocre.

PapaDoc
23-10-2009, 23:57
I don't think the cyclone as written in codex space marines is any way shape or form bad. Move 6" and fire two missiles is very good. I never denied any of the space marine cults (or chapter codices) to use it.

Anyway... does anybode remember when the chaos predator could move 6" fire an autocannon, two heavy bolters and havoc launcher for "only" 115 points?

Also this one was my personal favourite. Landraider + havocs shootin out from it= crazy amount of lascannon fire being thrown around.

EvilFuzzyDoom
24-10-2009, 04:00
O.o you can't fire out of a landraider... :confused:

big squig
24-10-2009, 05:59
The humble forest. Remember when you could actually hide something that you didn't want shot. Sure it was only a group of 4 trees shorter than a wraithlord, but it acted as if it was infinity tall and blocked all LOS. Now 40K landscape is nothing more than a rolling plain with a shrub or two here and there.
Build and use more terrain...

CULCHAIN
24-10-2009, 06:15
I am not saying its bad now , but you use to only get a 4+ save vs. ork choppas as an ork player however I am glad they changed it. I used to feel sorry for terminators.

Creeping Dementia
24-10-2009, 08:30
Drones off vehicles used to be great. Now they're a killpoint liability that cost extra to replace.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-10-2009, 09:05
If I remember right in 2nd edition you could buy terminiators refractor fields (5+inv) for them. So they just carried this over into 3rd edition when they realized how much terminators sucked. Hell even with a 5+ inv they still sucked, but at least they tried.

You don't. Normal terminators had no access to wargear, they did however have a 3+ save on 2d6 so even when hit by a lascannon they had a 9+ save.

Personally I always thought the Displacer Field was the most amusing field save anyway. 3+, but you then teleported in a random direction. I remember having a Death Jester raining death from on high standing on really tall walkway. Then he made his Displacer Field save and fell down... :D

IJW
24-10-2009, 09:10
You don't. Normal terminators had no access to wargear
Actually...

All he did was mis-remember the edition. When Terminators were introduced in RT they had access to Refractor Fields, along with grenades and even Jump Packs.

Raphaus
24-10-2009, 10:03
Jump packs?

I don't remember that, I do remember refractor fields and grenade harness' but not jump packs. That would've been awesome.

IJW
24-10-2009, 10:38
In the original White Dwarf article, yes.

DaSpaceAsians
24-10-2009, 12:24
Vanquishers. I miss the old rules and the psycological effect.