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Minigiant
22-10-2009, 15:04
Where does Vampires Counts Strength truely lye?

spetswalshe
22-10-2009, 15:19
Well, their ability to withstand most poisons would probably make them immune to lye.

Malorian
22-10-2009, 15:20
They always seem to get the chicks...

Whitehorn
22-10-2009, 15:23
Maths I guess.

The Anarchist
22-10-2009, 15:26
in what particular manner do you mean? and are we talking on the board or in the fluff?

on the board they can raise new units, and be decent mages whilst still holding their own in combat; so are damn ahrd all round characters with nasty ability of new units.

fluff-wise their greatest strength is they are immortal, they cna put plans into action that are decades or longer in fruition.

fubukii
22-10-2009, 17:15
gymnastics

Condottiere
22-10-2009, 17:29
Resurrection.

Minigiant
22-10-2009, 17:47
In mean on the board way

Midevil216
22-10-2009, 18:06
probably the fact that they dont run and you can bring back dead troops. and fear too, depending on who your playing.

Maoriboy007
22-10-2009, 19:50
I'd say their Deceptive durability.

kyinpie
22-10-2009, 19:53
the fact the a vampire charecter can be a deamon in combat AND be an awsome mage AND have a good armour save!! what other army can realy do that with all their charecters?

if you use the army right the army can take a beating and just keep going! :)

Tae
22-10-2009, 20:05
Characters who have awesome combinations of equipment and powers alowing them to be combat monsters AND mages. Combinations of which do truely border on the outright disgusting end of the power levels.

Combined with cheap **** troops who, despite being relatively crappy, still cause fear none the less. Add to the fact that they don't run from combat and can be ressurected often faster than they can be killed.

However this is only really the default 'raising' army. Once you start considering the various deathstar variants, as well as the others like Ethereal ones etc. then VC's quickly become (with the exception of shooting) an army which can easily dominate whichever phase of the game they chose - and often multiple ones.

Darkangeldentist
22-10-2009, 20:27
Vampires are hard because anything less than completely wiped out isn't good enough!:)

For every other army (bar Tomb kings who are also undead) the size of units and wounds are something that generally only goes down. Only if you specifically invest in it can you ever do anything about suffered damage. Even then it's rarely if ever applicable to units. With Vampires, if it's still there, you can have it full strength.

There are other nice features that make Vampires good but this is the foundation of their strength as an army currently.

Condottiere
22-10-2009, 20:54
Except for missile weapons, you do get a nice selection of troop types to adapt to any particular offensive strategy you may have.

thechosenone
22-10-2009, 20:56
The game is won or lost in three elements. Your ability to maneuver, how you handle or dish out Psychology and your close combat. In my opinion anything else is just added gravy and not game winning. Magick doesn't win games, it can help in conjunction with the other stuff but no one sits back and peppers magick till game over and expects to win.

Vampire counts are extremely mobile. This is in great part because of magick, being able to conjure up units where needed and van hel's across the board. Varghulf and flying coaches are helpful too. Lots of ethereal units and cavalry ethereals help. Vampires are made to move with the right stuff. So they can use magick to win movement.

Vampires Own psych. They dish out fear across the board and have access to lots of terror. They take psyche from no one at all. They cover their crumble weakness with lots of unit boosting magick. Again magick helps them steal this phase along with their general immunity to psyche.

Combat is the only element that isn't auto win for them. Basic troops like zombies and skeletons are really bad and Ghouls lack options, combat res and i think in my opion they are less versatile then skeletons. But again the vampire has tricks to cover this. The crown that gives a unit his LD and van hel's for rerolls. So he's doing ok here too.

In summary the vampire is built to control all the elements of the game that one must control to earn victory.


So the way i see it, If you have an army that can't control all three of the three elements of the game you really can't beat vampires unless they A) screw up or B) you do something utterly amazing. So if your OK, O&G, TK or Beasts just don't even both unless you think your opponent is bad with his vampires or your some evil super genius.

The Red Scourge
22-10-2009, 23:20
Vamps can't make super mage/fighters. They can either be good mages, good fighters or something average in between.

Their strength comes from being an army of tarpits, where you can easily tie up enemy units and thus control the battle. - and look cool and gothic while doing it :)

Maoriboy007
23-10-2009, 00:13
the fact the a vampire charecter can be a deamon in combat AND be an awsome mage AND have a good armour save!! what other army can realy do that with all their charecters?


Archaon , Lord of Change


Vamps can't make super mage/fighters. They can either be good mages, good fighters or something average in between.

The honest truth at last. Even their best fighting builds can be overshadowed by other combat fighters, its really the mid combination that I think is better.

ChaosVC
23-10-2009, 09:53
The POWER of rolling single d6 dice for a +3 summon more skele/ghoul/zombie spell repeatively and not having to worry about miscast until a friend with infernal puppet smilling on the oppsite end of the table playing with some chaos tongue thing...ewww...

kyinpie
23-10-2009, 09:58
Archaon , Lord of Change

all the charecters i meant! :)

artyboy
23-10-2009, 14:42
Vamps can be either a good mage or a good fighter. They can't be both. Either way they end up being very expensive. If you make him a good fighter then he doesn't have enough magic to support the army during the magic phase. If you make him a good mage then any rank and file can take him out if they manage to get to him.

Their strength is that their units are immune to psych, unbreakable and can be raised. If you don't take enough magic to raise the army back to full strength every turn then their biggest advantage goes away. Therefore, you can't run a fighty lord and hope to win against a good player. There are certainly some armies that are auto wins for vamps but those armies are all auto wins against a lot of armies.

loveless
23-10-2009, 14:45
Their real strength is in a competant general (player).

Vampires may be easy to play, but a good opposing general could still mop the floor with them. In such an instance, a poor Vampire player is going to lose, while a competant Vampire player is going to take notice, think like his enemy, and come out victorious.

Well, that and their models are awesome.

Condottiere
23-10-2009, 14:52
That's also the formula of success for most other armies.

Minigiant
23-10-2009, 19:54
If this is there strength what is there weakness?

puppetmaster24
23-10-2009, 20:05
They require one model too win. the general. if the general dies they will require a REALLY good player to come out on top.

Malorian
23-10-2009, 20:07
If this is there strength what is there weakness?

If the general dies they lose 99% of the time.

Can't flee.

Core sucks.

Has to stick together in a ball, which opens them up to being flanked.

No warmachines to stop monsters/dragons from hitting your lines.

loveless
23-10-2009, 20:09
Indeed. The major downfall of the VC is that they are more reliant on their General than any other army (Well, barring Tomb Kings, I'd say).

A dead General leads to a hemorrhaging of victory points - despite a number of "Vampire" units in the army.

I think even a good VC player would struggle to come out on top after his Count has bit the dust.

Midevil216
23-10-2009, 20:43
Yeah the general death is bad news for the Vamps.
I build my 2250 army so that if the general dies the army could still hold up somewhat.
Usualy a vamp in evey unit,assuming those are still on the table(the other vamps that is), and the other units Varghulf and Blood Knight are Vamps. And the one unit ,usually skeletons, will have the banner thats says no tests are required when the general dies.

But its still tough to win after the generals death. Sometimes I can pull it off depending on which turn the general died in.

Condottiere
23-10-2009, 20:56
Oh woe is the the army of the Vamp,
Whose members are prone to decamp,
When a stake through the heart,
Persuades them to depart,
Proving the Undead are just blankets damp.

The Red Scourge
23-10-2009, 21:58
Their weakness is in the loss of the general of course. I wouldn't call their core weak, as they are all tar pits, and skeleton spearmen rocks :)

Their true weakness lies in having a huge variety in specials and rare, they're all cool and deserve a place in the army, but the dependence on characters and the cost of those demands that you limit yourself and focus on a few troop choices :)

Enigmatik1
23-10-2009, 23:00
Their weakness is in the loss of the general of course. I wouldn't call their core weak, as they are all tar pits, and skeleton spearmen rocks :)

I would most definitely call Undead core weak. There are exceptions, like Ghouls and Chariots...otherwise, bleh! Core units cost so much that Undead armies, sans summoning new models onto the table, look like elite armies yet they generally can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I love my Undead, but I think I love complaining about the crappy core just as much.

And who takes skeleton spearmen? :p


Their true weakness lies in having a huge variety in specials and rare, they're all cool and deserve a place in the army, but the dependence on characters and the cost of those demands that you limit yourself and focus on a few troop choices :)

This is the crux of the Undead issue for both armies. Once you get out of core, it's hard to find a useless unit and these units are usually expensive also, but they don't fold like an lawn chair in a fight so you don't mind paying the points for them. The characters are likewise very expensive. The army design promotes Herohammer more than any other army because without these powerhouse characters, your army just doesn't function.

The Red Scourge
23-10-2009, 23:17
And who takes skeleton spearmen? :p

I do. And paying 10 pts for WS3-7 spears that quickly reach 28 man in size 7 wide, works quite nicely. You might argue that ghouls are better, but skellies look way cooler, and thats what its all about ;)

kyinpie
24-10-2009, 00:56
i sometimes use skelli spearmen! 7 wide too, start with about 14 then try to raise up from there! or somtimes just start with the full size unit depending on what the 'plan' is.

shredshredxx
24-10-2009, 04:02
with me.

the vampires counts strength truly lyes with me.

it's yours for 666 easy payments of $13.99

kardar233
24-10-2009, 06:42
The honest truth at last. Even their best fighting builds can be overshadowed by other combat fighters, its really the mid combination that I think is better.

Ummm... where did you get this information from? A combat-kitted Vampire Lord can kill any other similar non-SC Lord in the game, with the exception of Bloodthirsters and possibly the invulnerable Dreadlord.

He's still a level 3 wizard too.

blissneso
24-10-2009, 16:12
vampires are good because the black coach is a rare choice and when you take brake tests you get your 4++ save which means that assuming you arnt wounded it will take 8 rounds of combat for you to die. having t6 3+ armour and 4++ makes it quite hard for you to be killed. a standard ws3 str3 trooper will requirealot of attacks to do even 1 wound. however against str7 the black coach is instantly destroyed which can be a problem

artyboy
24-10-2009, 16:16
Ummm... where did you get this information from? A combat-kitted Vampire Lord can kill any other similar non-SC Lord in the game, with the exception of Bloodthirsters and possibly the invulnerable Dreadlord.

He's still a level 3 wizard too.

He can also be killed by said lords. What's the difference? If the vamp wins then you killed their general. If the other lord wins then you lose your army. Yes he's a level 3 wizard but he costs twice as much as every non caster lord in the game. It's not so much the crumbling that kills a VC army after the general dies. It's the crumbling plus the fact that you lose a lot of your raising ability. By the time your general goes down you've usually lost at least a couple of your other vampires. I suppose that the right army could survive and still do fairly well if the general goes down but you'd really have to build your army in such a way that you're expecting it to happen.

blissneso
24-10-2009, 16:17
atryboy im sorry but your wrong

Amlesh
24-10-2009, 16:43
^ This coming from the guy who says the Vampire army is good because the Black Coach has a ward save ...

kardar233
24-10-2009, 21:23
He can also be killed by said lords. What's the difference? If the vamp wins then you killed their general. If the other lord wins then you lose your army. Yes he's a level 3 wizard but he costs twice as much as every non caster lord in the game. It's not so much the crumbling that kills a VC army after the general dies. It's the crumbling plus the fact that you lose a lot of your raising ability. By the time your general goes down you've usually lost at least a couple of your other vampires. I suppose that the right army could survive and still do fairly well if the general goes down but you'd really have to build your army in such a way that you're expecting it to happen.

A max-outfitted standard Vampire Lord (no monstrous mount) costs a maximum of 455pts. His closest real competitor, the Chaos Lord (I don't count the Dreadlord as a real competitor as his entire strength comes from the Pendant), tops out at 370pts including Mark and the usual Gift (Word of Agony). That's considerably less than twice the cost of his competitor.

Also, with a combat Lord, you don't lose a considerable amount of raising ability if the General dies; only 3 PD, none of which have bonuses to cast or can raise units above original size.

I'd argue it's definitely the crumbling that kills you if your General dies; apart from Rare units and characters, the entire army is Ld6 on Specials and Ld4 on Cores. Every unit that doesn't have a Vampire in it will die very quickly, as they're taking what's essentially a Daemonic Instability test on their low Ld every turn. Even the units with just Hero-Vamps will crumble away, as you only have about a 56% chance of passing the crumble test.

thechosenone
25-10-2009, 08:52
Oh woe is the the army of the Vamp,
Whose members are prone to decamp,
When a stake through the heart,
Persuades them to depart,
Proving the Undead are just blankets damp.

very well said. No one stood up to appreciate a good point delivered as a song.

Enigmatik1
26-10-2009, 13:47
I do. And paying 10 pts for WS3-7 spears that quickly reach 28 man in size 7 wide, works quite nicely. You might argue that ghouls are better, but skellies look way cooler, and thats what its all about ;)

HAHA! Fair enough, Red. I always forget about that damnable Helm or whatever. I was referring to the WS2, can't hit the broad side of a barn variety. Not Skeletal Swordmaster wanna-bes. :-P

@kardar - I think artyboy is comparing his Vamp Lord to a standard issue anti-character Tomb King, who runs you ~270 points on foot with the obligatory Destroyer of Eternities and Collar of Shapesh. It's one of the few bargains in my army (that I ironically never use:wtf:).

loveless
26-10-2009, 14:24
with me.

the vampires counts strength truly lyes with me.

it's yours for 666 easy payments of $13.99

So if I supply cash to this wee metalhead, I get the strength of the vampires?

This is either the worst get rich quick scheme I've ever seen, or the best get rich quick scheme I've ever seen. :p

Mullitron
26-10-2009, 15:48
I think vampires greatest strength relies in the fact their soo reliable, if they fumble their attacks a few more die but can be rezzed and they dont flee. If the enemy charges in with one of their omportant units and rolls loads of ones suddenly their auto running from the outnumber fear causing opponent. Now iam not saying that vampires count armies can simply rely on their enemies to have a bad succession of bad rolls to win but it does come in handy. I think their greatest weakness is magic defense, vampire's unlike other armies need their magic, they rely on it to help them to adapt to anything that goes wrong or against their plan without it they are much weaker. If you shut down their magic phase or get a few miss casts their in a bad way.

wilsongrahams
26-10-2009, 20:03
The Vamps have so many strengths only because they have one major weakness - their survival depends upon the general. Sure he'll be tough, but if he goes, you will have an easier time of the rest of the game.

Getting into a meatgrinder with skellies will end with you losing as you will only ever lose models. You need to formulate your plan about stopping the general, just like all the fluff concentrates on - a big hint there!

kyinpie
29-10-2009, 11:19
the general and magic is very important, as said above! i had a game yesturday, general miscast in the first turn lost a level, again in the secound turn and rolled double 1's on the table!! :O he went splat! two of my vampires and the ghoul unit they were in was also toasted in the same turn by two units of 6 flamers, with a pyrocaster in each. all i had left was a whight king BSB with the flag of blood keep, against a tzeentch army with 17 power dice and the scribe! :( i had 2 dispell dice! haha, can u guess the outcome of the game! :P

anyway, i was going to struggle against that list anyway, but as soon as my general and two vamps had died (re-died??) i had no deffince and no summoning avalable, also i was crumbling with no charecters in any unit except my GG (which was wiped out in turn 4 by flamers and magic missiles!) i think this is a good example to why you should look after your charecters, espeacialy the general! :)