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Corrode
30-11-2009, 21:29
I see this comment a lot and I don't quite understand it. CURRENTLY DE do not generate a lot of income because they have been poorly supported, if you can even claim it as such, since the beginning and have a very dated model line. A relaunch of the kind we know is in the works is effectively the same as launching an entirely new race. A lot of newer players have never even seen, let alone played against DE. Sure, its a gamble, but knowing the popularity of Eldar I say there is no reason their dark kin can't enjoy similar success.

You don't seem to understand what Reinholt means. His comment is not that DE would not be profitable; it's that they don't represent an easy profit. Armies like the Necrons or the various Space Marine Chapters or Tau have very strong model ranges already; you can easily support those races by plasticising a few metal or hybrid kits, bringing out some fancy new characters, and updating the rules to work with 5th. It's the sort of thing they can turn out relatively quickly and with little aggro. In contrast, Dark Eldar is an army with a lot of potential, but it's a gamble - will they sell better with a nicer range and proper support, or is the concept really just terrible? Even if they do sell well, they need a full new model range, a totally re-done book, lots of time and effort on everyone's part to get it right.

In simpler terms, whacking out some new Space Marine plastics costs them £50 and they're pretty much guaranteed to see a £200 return on that; Dark Eldar might cost them £200 and they might earn £200 (if they're alright and become another middle-popularity army like Tau or Eldar), £400 (if they really have just been an awesome idea waiting for its day), or £50 (if the concept of 'DARK ELVES IN SPACE' really is dogshit). Obviously the numbers are made up, but the point is simply that doing something hard for the sake of it doesn't make sense when you can do something easy and be much more likely to make the same or more money.

Motley
30-11-2009, 21:59
The pie man as speak and my imagination just when wild......he is a terrorist ....he is attacking imagination land with pretty ...pretty big bombs!!!!!!....lol.

Sooooo something is winging ....and droning in our future!!!! no the nearest future but pretty close......... :D

This is actually really fun!!!!:evilgrin:

Scorcher505
30-11-2009, 22:25
To me drone sounds Tauish, since they field drones. I would like to hear more about the Blood Angels though if you can spare some insight Harry

Irbian
30-11-2009, 22:31
So
*Tyranids
*Blood Angels
*Black Templars (fleet based chapter)
*Tau (There is lots of other stuff for us to drone on about before this.)
*Dark angels (winging in our direction)
*Dark Eldars (5th or 6th)

better? :D

Reinholt
30-11-2009, 22:33
But that may have a good deal to do with the existing model range.
I imagine by the time Jes has finished weaving the Goodwin magic on the range and completely redone them they may see a bigger fan base.

Harry,

I'm not saying the DE can't generate cash (I am certain they can, if done properly), but rather saying the up-front investment is larger than doing blood angels, say.

If you need new molds for the entire line, as well as all the design work and shipping done for all of those models, that will definitely cost more today than doing BA, as an example.

Therefore, even if the payoff down the road for DE is greater, if you are hoarding cash to pay down your debt (which GW has been doing) or expand profitable operations while shutting down unprofitable ones (which has been happening on the retail side), you might hold off on DE until you have more free cash.

That is why I am pessimistic on them in the near term, but optimistic on them in the long term.

HsojVvad
30-11-2009, 22:45
Since BT and DA are rumoured out, the only thing that can be 'winging' our way is Vespids?

Was the 'winging' statement was made, was it refered to SM at all? Geez wouldn't it be bad if the Fleet based and winging our way statements were Tyranids, since they are fleet based and maybe getting alot of winged creatures. That is the only thing we can guarentee that is 100% coming our way.

Irbian
30-11-2009, 23:07
Since BT and DA are rumoured out, the only thing that can be 'winging' our way is Vespids?

Was the 'winging' statement was made, was it refered to SM at all? Geez wouldn't it be bad if the Fleet based and winging our way statements were Tyranids, since they are fleet based and maybe getting alot of winged creatures. That is the only thing we can guarentee that is 100% coming our way.

Rumored out? when?

deadly claris
30-11-2009, 23:32
There is lots of other stuff for us to drone on about before this. :D


okej I know Its TAU ;)



this is my guess(and first post on warseer)

2010
Jan- Nids
Feb- beastman
mars- ? (hope hope blood angels)
april - blood angels
may- nothing?
jun- fantasy 8ed
jul-nothing?

Motley
30-11-2009, 23:47
Well there is a couple of possibilities :

1 Nids
2 Blood angels
3 Black templar or grey knights
4 tau......

or

1 Nids
2 Blood Angels/ black templars or grey knights
3 Tau
4 .......necrons?????..........

and the last one...

1 Nids
2 Blood Angels
3 Tau
4 Black templars or grey knights...

Any of those combinations make me really happy because in all of them my angels r getting is codex out .... finally......:D:):D:)

Hadafix
30-11-2009, 23:51
err, didnt Brimstone say that the BT would be getting done "sooner than you think" or something like that?

Fleet based could also mean Death Guard, Eldar, or Blood Ravens, but none of these seem the obvious answer. And I think Nids were already rumoured before those comments were made.

I have not seen Harry or Brimstone deny that the BT are out next year, despite them turning up in peoples expectations. So till that time I will wait and see, and keep in mind that there is a "fair" possibility that they might.

Other information also points to the C:BT being all but ready.

szlachcic
01-12-2009, 02:29
You don't seem to understand what Reinholt means. His comment is not that DE would not be profitable; it's that they don't represent an easy profit. Armies like the Necrons or the various Space Marine Chapters or Tau have very strong model ranges already; you can easily support those races by plasticising a few metal or hybrid kits, bringing out some fancy new characters, and updating the rules to work with 5th. It's the sort of thing they can turn out relatively quickly and with little aggro. In contrast, Dark Eldar is an army with a lot of potential, but it's a gamble - will they sell better with a nicer range and proper support, or is the concept really just terrible? Even if they do sell well, they need a full new model range, a totally re-done book, lots of time and effort on everyone's part to get it right.

In simpler terms, whacking out some new Space Marine plastics costs them £50 and they're pretty much guaranteed to see a £200 return on that; Dark Eldar might cost them £200 and they might earn £200 (if they're alright and become another middle-popularity army like Tau or Eldar), £400 (if they really have just been an awesome idea waiting for its day), or £50 (if the concept of 'DARK ELVES IN SPACE' really is dogshit). Obviously the numbers are made up, but the point is simply that doing something hard for the sake of it doesn't make sense when you can do something easy and be much more likely to make the same or more money.

Actually I do understand that he is getting at they wouldn't be a cheap/easy update, and wouldn't be profitable in the SHORT tern. However, you illustrate the point that I was getting at and what frustrates me. People are so quick to say DE are poor sellers and "nobody" plays them, so GW should just drop them. I am sure GW is going to knock out a few "quick" updates like more Marines and Tau (yawn), but that doesn't mean they are not going to update DE.

Hokiecow
01-12-2009, 02:32
I was under the impression that Tau still had some work. For example new suits, they may incorporate some of the stuff from Forge World. Then again, maybe that's what Harry means but If they can get things done in time....

Although I'm a Tau player, I would like more work done on them then a quick turn around. That's what they got last time.

It's disheartening to hear DE will be pushed yet another year AND not make the 1st release of 2011.... :cries:

HsojVvad
01-12-2009, 02:32
Not shure if Brimstone made that comment Hadafix. But for Death Guard or Blood Ravens, GW did say nothing new will be coming till all others have been updated before. I know, this could change of course, if it would make GW more money. But till more solid rumours come out, I am going by that nothing new will be released and go by the SM, non SM release sceduel.


Rumored out? when?

Post 238:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Originally Posted by HsojVvad
Sorry I can't remember the exact quote, but someone at GD asked one of the Developers in GW. He asked about BT, and the reply was something like ' I will be crying for a long time.'

I guess this can be taken as 2 ways. Either he is crying because he has to wait a long time, or the new BT codex is bad. Since GW is not releasing any bad codecies now, I am assuming that BT will be a long time for a new codex. Same thing was said for DA as well.

So I am assuming a BT release has been denied.

If someone can link this quote it would help alot.


it was alessio cavatore at gd italy. i think BT are not in the near future.

The Dude
01-12-2009, 02:57
It's disheartening to hear DE will be pushed yet another year AND not make the 1st release of 2011.... :cries:

Well from what Harry said...


It is possible they could sneek DE in by the end of next year? There is still about a years work to do on the models so I guess that is doable if plastic production was already in full swing by the time they finished the models.

However, if they do it will not be a 4th codex as he suggests. It would be 5th or even 6th :eek:

...there's still a chance they'll appear in 2010. If not, maybe we would see them first thing 2011.

Emeraldw
01-12-2009, 05:28
That quote from Harry says more to me about other codex's than dark eldar. But it does give some people an idea at least I suppose.

Koris
01-12-2009, 08:30
Thanks for that.

Codex Inquisiton actually.
I have it from a pretty reliable source.


Errrrm. Not so reliable. :D


Thanks for that, but I wasn't seeking validation, just posting what I know.
I heard it from someone I consider to be a close and trusted friend, you are a random on the internet. I know who I will prefer to trust. But cheers for the input...

Xelloss
01-12-2009, 09:36
I was under the impression that Tau still had some work. For example new suits, they may incorporate some of the stuff from Forge World.
Tau suits definitively need stronger legs - I had to drill and strengthen each minis of my tau-playing friend because some genius wasn't able to calculate basic material resistance... And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Edit :


I heard it from someone I consider to be a close and trusted friend, you are a random on the internet.
I think I would trust more Harry than a close and trusted friend when it comes to GW products...

Purge the Heretic
01-12-2009, 09:40
thanks for that, but i wasn't seeking validation, just posting what i know.
I heard it from someone i consider to be a close and trusted friend, you are a random on the internet. I know who i will prefer to trust. But cheers for the input...

heretic


pie for the pie god!!!

Corrode
01-12-2009, 09:57
Actually I do understand that he is getting at they wouldn't be a cheap/easy update, and wouldn't be profitable in the SHORT tern. However, you illustrate the point that I was getting at and what frustrates me. People are so quick to say DE are poor sellers and "nobody" plays them, so GW should just drop them. I am sure GW is going to knock out a few "quick" updates like more Marines and Tau (yawn), but that doesn't mean they are not going to update DE.

Once again, you didn't read. He didn't say 'LOL DROP DE THEY SUX' and nobody in this thread has been saying that. We're actually in agreement - DE should be done and most likely will be, but not necessarily right now.

Irbian
01-12-2009, 10:10
No offense, but you are a random too :D the difference is that Harry is famous for his correct guesses

I would like that to believe that too, but...

Edit:





I heard it from someone I consider to be a close and trusted friend, you are a random on the internet.

I think I would trust more Harry than a close and trusted friend when it comes to GW products...

Agree :D

Hadafix
01-12-2009, 10:18
Not shure if Brimstone made that comment Hadafix. But for Death Guard or Blood Ravens, GW did say nothing new will be coming till all others have been updated before. I know, this could change of course, if it would make GW more money. But till more solid rumours come out, I am going by that nothing new will be released and go by the SM, non SM release sceduel.
Post 238:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
it was alessio cavatore at gd italy. i think BT are not in the near future.

And any 3rd-4th release next year is still a loooong way off, I will wait and see. See the Thread someone tried to start asking for BT rumours, he implied that that will be done sooner than what he thinks the person thinks they will be. Or something like that.

With regards to my comment on Death Guard, I have been hearing different things about how they are going to redo the Traitor Legions, and Raven Guard was meant more "tongue in cheek" as its very unlikely they would do that.

Just think, those veteran DE will have those nice spiky models to show how long they been playing when the new "overpowered" C: DE comes out.:angel:

Scryer in the Darkness
01-12-2009, 10:35
I heard it from someone I consider to be a close and trusted friend, you are a random on the internet. I know who I will prefer to trust. But cheers for the input...
Ha! Never have I seen that phrase more incorrectly applied.

With the possible exception of Brimstone, no one has a greater reputation and more wide ranging following than Harry on matters of upcoming GW releases. "Just a guy on the internet" he may be, but he is no mere random. You seriously need to do some reading. But thanks for the laugh...

canyoneromikos
01-12-2009, 13:23
I was told by a close and trusted friend that Squats are coming back. He was drunk at the time and has no contacts in GW. Now disprove that people!

pjklan
01-12-2009, 13:27
Harry is famous for his correct guesses


just three words:

SHOKK ATTACK GUN

(the best news i have ever received on internet, my friend harry)

HsojVvad
01-12-2009, 13:37
No offense, but you are a random too :D the difference is that Harry is famous for his correct guesses

:D

Oh Harry dosn't guess. He knows. If he was guessing, then he would be able to tell us everything since they would be guess. It was stated he can't say things, so that must mean he knows things, an just not allowd to say much.

I am just curious Harry and Brimstone are allowd to release stuff. Do they get an email saying ok, let some info trickle by or do they just do it on their own accord? Ah we will never know eh? :D

Irbian
01-12-2009, 13:58
Thats why I say guesses XD is better that way. If some GW lawyer asks, say that they are "guessing" ;)

HsojVvad
01-12-2009, 13:59
Thats why I say guesses XD is better that way. If some GW lawyer asks, say that they are "guessing" ;)

DOH *slaps face*

x-esiv-4c
01-12-2009, 14:40
Given how restrictive GW has become with rumors, GW gives leak sources (imho) like Harry and Brimstone a little slack on their leashes to sow a little speculation (which is always fun). It's quite rare these days to get any concrete info.

pringles978
01-12-2009, 15:20
I heard it from someone I consider to be a close and trusted friend, you are a random on the internet. I know who I will prefer to trust. But cheers for the input...

im still trying to figure out if harry has gw hq bugged or is some kind of farseer... he knows all and sees all....

Koris
01-12-2009, 15:25
It was said numerous times from Harry, Brimstone and now The Dude, that BT, and DA won't be the other half of the story. This is what, the 3rd or 4th time The Dude said we are overlooking or overreading into what has been said before.

So maybe we have to stop thinking of it being another codex, and it could be mini releases instead.

Maybe one question we need, is, Is the other half of the story BA related, or SM related?

Either that or its plastic Grey Knight minis...

HsojVvad
01-12-2009, 15:30
Either that or its plastic Grey Knight minis...

Now that would be sweet. I always wanted to do GK, but to expensive $$$ wise to start.

Hadafix
01-12-2009, 15:33
im still trying to figure out if harry has gw hq bugged or is some kind of farseer... he knows all and sees all....

Neither, its written in the pies. The pies see all, hear all...:D

Bazzmundo
01-12-2009, 15:43
Either that or its plastic Grey Knight minis...

Now I really am just an internet random who knows nothing but....

The Stompa was released around that slot last year plus "winging" equals it's the Plastic Thunderhawk of Joy.

Tenuous, I know....

Xelloss
01-12-2009, 15:45
Now that would be sweet. I always wanted to do GK, but to expensive $$$ wise to start.
Actually, GK are quite cheap if you want to make an army, since they cost a lot. If you want a really expensive army, try non-mechanized IG...

Koris
01-12-2009, 16:05
Ha! Never have I seen that phrase more incorrectly applied.

With the possible exception of Brimstone, no one has a greater reputation and more wide ranging following than Harry on matters of upcoming GW releases. "Just a guy on the internet" he may be, but he is no mere random. You seriously need to do some reading. But thanks for the laugh...

I was not saying you have to believe what I said, merely taking issue with the insinuation that my friend would lie to me. As I have no reason to believe he is misinformed, or that I would be deliberately mislead.

Also, as for the issue of randoms on a forum. That is how I would consider everyone on here. I would always take the word of someone a friend IRL over speculation on the internet. Unless that friend was a massive liar.

Also, I read lots, most of it however, is not restricted to this forum. But thank you for your thoughts on my literary intinerary.

pjklan
01-12-2009, 16:35
I was not saying you have to believe what I said, merely taking issue with the insinuation that my friend would lie to me. As I have no reason to believe he is misinformed, or that I would be deliberately mislead.

Also, as for the issue of randoms on a forum. That is how I would consider everyone on here. I would always take the word of someone a friend IRL over speculation on the internet. Unless that friend was a massive liar.

Also, I read lots, most of it however, is not restricted to this forum. But thank you for your thoughts on my literary intinerary.
listen, please don't be offended by what we are writing.
we are just telling you that EACH and EVERY time harry told us something, in public or private, he always proved right.
so, in this case, i'm sorry for your friend but harry has our total belief.
sorry!

FerociousBeast
01-12-2009, 18:29
Not every time, just the vast majority of times. The Cult of Pie is fun, don't get me wrong, but his word isn't quite gospel. I can remember one time he got something wrong (but only one, off the top of my head).

szlachcic
01-12-2009, 19:11
Once again, you didn't read. He didn't say 'LOL DROP DE THEY SUX' and nobody in this thread has been saying that. We're actually in agreement - DE should be done and most likely will be, but not necessarily right now.

Actually I did read it, I may have just tried to over think what he was trying to get across. Sorry if that somehow offended you, it is just tiring to see people put DE down every time they come up, and I mistakenly placed him as one.

spagunk
01-12-2009, 19:16
listen, please don't be offended by what we are writing.
we are just telling you that EACH and EVERY time harry told us something, in public or private, he always proved right.
so, in this case, i'm sorry for your friend but harry has our total belief.
sorry!


I was not saying you have to believe what I said, merely taking issue with the insinuation that my friend would lie to me. As I have no reason to believe he is misinformed, or that I would be deliberately mislead.

Also, as for the issue of randoms on a forum. That is how I would consider everyone on here. I would always take the word of someone a friend IRL over speculation on the internet. Unless that friend was a massive liar.

Also, I read lots, most of it however, is not restricted to this forum. But thank you for your thoughts on my literary intinerary.


I am not meaning to sound condescending but why are you here then?

This thread exists to break down rumors into what we can only surmise as truth prior to release. As such, you are invited to this location to add what ever you can to the discussion. It just so happens that not very many believe you and those who actually DO know more than everyone have flat up stated that your information is unlikely. Seeing as how you are receiving information 2nd hand, our beef isn't that your friend is a liar but that it runs contrary to the information that 1st hand sources have. It is like a game of telephone where someone whispers into someone ear and by the time it makes it to the end, the information is radically different the the original message. As such, your 2nd hand info has a reliability rating one to two degrees less than that of both harry and brimstone. Where does your source get their information? What pretense other than word of mouth do we have that your source is reliable? Have they posted online for us to reference?

Just take a moment and step back a bit and examine what is going on. The folks here just want information. You said your piece and made your case to the forum. Whether or not we believe you is now irrelevant until such a time that we can confirm your information. If we confirm your info, kudos to you and you now have "I told you so" rights. If not, no skin off your back and you can go back to your friend and let them know that he got his info wrong.

gorgon
01-12-2009, 19:47
Even if Koris's friend is in error, I think Koris has been piled on enough. He obviously believes his friend knows something. Sure, Harry may very well be right. He usually is. But it's not like we know who Koris's friend is, right? I know how entrenched people on this site get, but IMO it's good policy not to chase anyone and everyone who contradicts things we "know".

A simple "thanks...we've heard things that contradict that, but we appreciate you sharing it" seems like a more polite and responsible response. Just my two cents.

Harry
01-12-2009, 19:51
Agreed.

Koris I didn't mean to suggest your mate was telling you lies.
In fact I have said on here myself that Grey knights are in the pipeline.
You seemed to be sure they were in the picture for 2010 ('October' I think you said)
I was trying to suggest they were a little bit further away still.
I know when they started this project and I can't see them finishing it by then.

I often times get things wrong ... piecing together rumours is not an exact science ... this could be one of those times.

Apologies if I came across as a ****. :D

Motley
02-12-2009, 06:03
OK i think i have it..... after that last post of the pie man..:p

1 Nids
2 Blood Angels ...:D
3 Black Templars
4 Tau
5 Necrons
6 Dark Eldar
7 Grey knights.....

Black templars can change place with tau
Necron can change place with Dark Eldar.......

by the end of 2011 i want to see if this was good or not.....:D

.....long live the Pie!!!!!!!.............lol

Sagatarius
02-12-2009, 06:17
How many percent are correct from this plan?

Motley
02-12-2009, 06:28
MMMMMMMM for the first 2....maybe 100% for the rest....who knows!!!!:D

Ivellis
02-12-2009, 06:56
I have to guess too, so later I can either say "Damn, look how wrong I was!" or "Hell yeah, I'm an honest to god farseer!"

1. Tyranids
2. Blood Angels
3. Tau Empire
4/5. Legions of the Dark Gods
4/5. Black Templars
6. Necrons
7. Dark Eldar
8. Craftworld Eldar
9. Inquisition
10. Chaos Daemons
11. New Edition.

Yes I know, unlikely to have that three xenos in a row thing going on, but come on, back to back DE and CE, how cool would that be?

Also made me realize that I want to buy every single one of those armies. :cries:

At least if Dark Angels is in there somewhere I already have them.

Spectral Dragon
02-12-2009, 07:47
Based on the info I have garnered at this forum/someone I talk to sporradically:

1) Tyranids
2) Blood Angels
3) Necrons
4) Subsequent Marine Release of some sort-Possibly chaos based
5) Dark Eldar
6) Tau Empire
7/8) Inquisition release/Daemonhunters
8/7) Craftworld Eldar
9) Another Marine Release-Possibly Dark Angels
10) Main Chaos book.

It gets sketchy after 8 in my mind.

Xelloss
02-12-2009, 09:50
This is what is certain : 1/ Tyranids and 2/ Blood Angels
Based on the lack of objection, it seems BT are near (what the guy in Italy said have been stated as misleading information) - so I would say either 2bis (unlikely since it seems to have been contradicted), 3/ or 4/. 4 would better be for marines/others alternance. But I still don't understand what people means when they say they are fleet based (they have righteous zeal, but it's not fleet ``\(o_°)/`` ....)
"Wing its way" and "drone" allusion could be signs for a new tau codex. My bet is on 3, from a projection on what Brimstone said in a previous topic, where he said someone got the list right. In the same topic Craftworld Eldar were mentioned, so that could be it, but the probability seems lesser.
Necrons are near, but not finished (cf discussion how they are still discussing about fluff new directions). 5/ seems a good estimation (early 2011)
Harry said previously in this thread that DE could fit 5/, 6/ or 7/, but more likely 7/
He also mentioned Grey knights are near, that make it 6/. Or maybe it's just a plastic release with sisters, without codices... Let's hope not.

My bet :
1) Tyranids
2) Blood Angels
3) Tau Empire
4) Black Templars
5) Necrons
6) Grey Knights (whatever the form they make the codex)
7) Dark Eldar


Edit : I want to add that it is also my opinion that GW like to keep margin on the release order of codices, so things can change. The list lacks Ecclesiarchy and chaos legion due to lack of hint about these.

Ivellis
02-12-2009, 10:21
But I still don't understand what people means when they say they are fleet based

They don't have a home world, they live on fleets of starships.

shabbadoo
02-12-2009, 11:24
Other than for Dark Angels, which chapters are fleet based? I seem to recall that there are a few other chapters who are, but it escapes me at the moment.

Bloodknight
02-12-2009, 11:35
Just think, those veteran DE will have those nice spiky models to show how long they been playing when the new "overpowered" C: DE comes out

My Raiders will get bumper stickers: we've been played for over 10 years before we were cool...;)

I can live with new DE in 1 or 2 years, that means I get my repaint finished...and I believe that a new release with fine models can easily tranform the DE into a mid-range popular army. I like to compare this to the Wood Elf release in 6th edition WFB. They had no book at all for years, the minis were astoundingly bad, WE players were a rarity, now you see them everywhere.

Vaktathi
02-12-2009, 11:39
Other than for Dark Angels, which chapters are fleet based? I seem to recall that there are a few other chapters who are, but it escapes me at the moment.

Black Templars I believe.

Souleater
02-12-2009, 12:11
Guys you aren't thinking properly.

What about a chapter that all have the Fleet rule...eh? Eh? :D

Xelloss
02-12-2009, 12:48
and I believe that a new release with fine models can easily tranform the DE into a mid-range popular army.
I just hope their new codex transform DE in a *painted* army. I never seen one before...

BramGaunt
02-12-2009, 12:50
Other than for Dark Angels, which chapters are fleet based? I seem to recall that there are a few other chapters who are, but it escapes me at the moment.

Since when exactly are Dark Angels fleet based? They have the remainings of their corrupted chaos-twisted planet they called Calliban once, it acts as their base, the just cannot recruit from it anymore, for obvious reasons, but they still return there frequently (everytime they fled a real battle for capturing one of their fallen brethren, for example.)

Lord Malorne
02-12-2009, 12:52
Black Templars I believe.

Also the 20 made to patrol the Eye of Terror, which the Astral Clawa used to be part of. As to the 'fleet rule army' I am surprised scouts do not have the fleet rule.

Lord Malorneunt

Nethraniel
02-12-2009, 13:05
Since when exactly are Dark Angels fleet based? They have the remainings of their corrupted chaos-twisted planet they called Calliban once, it acts as their base, the just cannot recruit from it anymore, for obvious reasons, but they still return there frequently (everytime they fled a real battle for capturing one of their fallen brethren, for example.)
The Rock is a now a flying space-fortress. So actually the DAs are Fleet Based in some regards.

Lord Malorne
02-12-2009, 13:11
In regards to having a fleet, which all chapters do, as to being truly fleet based, they are fail, as they have a fixed loacation, true fleet based chapters are always on the move with only a fleet, no home.

Lord Malorneiel

Nethraniel
02-12-2009, 13:19
Hm, The Rock even has a warp drive, so in my opinion the DAs are really fleet based, because of the missing fixed location.

Lord Malorne
02-12-2009, 13:21
Not always on the move :p, also it has never been said anywhere that they are a fleet based chapter while the ones guarding the eye of terror have been aswell as the Black Templars.

Lord Malorneiel

Bloodknight
02-12-2009, 13:40
I just hope their new codex transform DE in a *painted* army. I never seen one before..

See my Plog...

Wimvh
02-12-2009, 13:42
No, but also not always in one place, no fixed location. The Rock is not a planet anymore, it moves, it has warp drives and can be catalogue as a giant space ship. Albeit one constructed into the remains of a planet.

DA, are, IMHO, a fleet-based chapter.

Lord Malorne
02-12-2009, 13:48
They can be considered one, but they have not been named as one :).

Lord Malornemvh

Hadafix
02-12-2009, 15:05
Other than for Dark Angels, which chapters are fleet based? I seem to recall that there are a few other chapters who are, but it escapes me at the moment.

Your kidding right? The DA are not fleet based, they have the "Rock" and are said as having a "home world".

The only fleet base Chapter, outside of the C:SM is the Black Templar.

This is unless you take into account Death Guard who follow Typhus.

Out of curiosity, which came first. GD Spain or Italy?

Sinisterfence
02-12-2009, 16:57
Imperial Fists are fleet based aswell, aren't they? if memory serves their "home world" is Terra, but they operate from a giant floating space monastry of doom

Lord Malorne
02-12-2009, 17:05
Phalanx, they do recruit from Terra.

Lord Malornence

ogretyrant
02-12-2009, 18:53
Your kidding right? The DA are not fleet based, they have the "Rock" and are said as having a "home world".


The Rock was there home world but has since been converted into a giant warp capable base of opp, they recruit from several differant planets. To me that sounds like a fleet based chapter even though there background does not specificlly say they are fleet based.

As for BT beign the only fleet based outside of C:SM who says they wont bring out another non codex one (although I do find this unlikely)

Hadafix
02-12-2009, 19:06
Imperial Fists are fleet based aswell, aren't they? if memory serves their "home world" is Terra, but they operate from a giant floating space monastry of doom

Codex Chapter, and I cant see any of those armies already with a 5ed codex getting another one.

As we know what slot 1 & 2 are, and that DE are probably not till 2011, slots 3 & 4 are either BT and Tau or maybe Eldar or maybe some kind of =][=.

Surely some more hints must be due by now... or is there going to be a bumper hint special on Xmas or New Years?:D

Lungboy
02-12-2009, 19:10
Codex Chapter, and I cant see any of those armies already with a 5ed codex getting another one.

I'm not sure what this has to do with it as both Blood Angels and Dark Angels are codex chapters.

Hadafix
02-12-2009, 19:29
I'm not sure what this has to do with it as both Blood Angels and Dark Angels are codex chapters.

Not exactly, BA have their crazies and extra jump packs while DA have their wings and the hunt.

So not exactly codex chapters, and GW has seen fit to give them a seperate codex, though I expect this has more to them being the original Space Hulk chapters.

Not exactly on topic though.

snowviper
02-12-2009, 19:39
How about Soul Drinker ?

tcraigen
02-12-2009, 19:40
The Rock was there home world but has since been converted into a giant warp capable base of opp, they recruit from several differant planets. To me that sounds like a fleet based chapter even though there background does not specificlly say they are fleet based.

I think they outright say Fleet chapter when all they have is ships to live on, and dont specifically all assemble and live in a central base of operations. The Rock is kinda more akin to a craftworld in my understanding. The fleet can come to dock and rest at it while it travels. Yes it is a ship, in the broadest use of the word now since they have made it mobile thus making them a Fleet based army. I think that The Rock is probably like driving a sky scraper down a highway in terms of speed, but none the less is mobile furthering their secracy theme since you cant ever really pin point where they are for to long. But all this seems to be off topic anyways and can be read in which ever version of their codex you may own.

ogretyrant
02-12-2009, 20:21
I think the issue with the DA is a 'is your glass half full or half empty' type of issue.

MajorWesJanson
02-12-2009, 20:23
I think the issue with the DA is a 'is your glass half full or half empty' type of issue.

Except half of the water is a traitor, but it may be the missing half or the half in the glass, but the glass ain't saying either way.

The Dude
02-12-2009, 22:16
Not exactly, BA have their crazies and extra jump packs while DA have their wings and the hunt.

So not exactly codex chapters

Blood Angels use the exact same structure as every other Codex Chapter. Especially now that Vanilla Marines get Vanguard Vets. The Death Company is an ad hoc grouping of Black Ragers, not a standing unit, and so doesn't impact on Codex structure.

Dark Angels are also Codex, they just swapped one of their Assault Companies with one of their Battle Companies. This is somewhat marred by the latest book where GW game them Company Veterans though.

In summary, Dark Angels are slightly Codex divergeant, but Blood Angels are totally Codex.

SanguinaryDan
03-12-2009, 05:03
How about Soul Drinker ?

Bite your tongue. As if the books weren't silly enough. The idea of the Spider/Librarian/Chapter Master as an actual figure makes me nauseous.:eyebrows:

Lusall
03-12-2009, 06:58
Or further away, depending on where you live ;)

Where else would you live but America or the UK? Oh...well...there's Canada. :angel::p


Blood Angels use the exact same structure as every other Codex Chapter. Especially now that Vanilla Marines get Vanguard Vets. The Death Company is an ad hoc grouping of Black Ragers, not a standing unit, and so doesn't impact on Codex structure.

Dark Angels are also Codex, they just swapped one of their Assault Companies with one of their Battle Companies. This is somewhat marred by the latest book where GW game them Company Veterans though.

In summary, Dark Angels are slightly Codex divergeant, but Blood Angels are totally Codex.

Indeed...

This is why I've actually supported another Angels of Death Codex. You have a good bit of fluff, painting guides etc. And then a two part section that details the minor ways you refigure the army list (Codex SM) to make it Angelish.

In the case of BA...assault squads are troops, Vanguard vets are Elites (or something along those lines) and then the Death Company. Dark Angels...Terminators become troops, can mix and match assault Termi/normal Termis and are stuborn or Fearless.

Anywho...the word on the street is that Crons are supposed to be done in late 2010. (Just added that for the sake of adding it.)


Bite your tongue. As if the books weren't silly enough. The idea of the Spider/Librarian/Chapter Master as an actual figure makes me nauseous.:eyebrows:

I kinda liked the books as things went along...but the early stuff suuuucked.

But I'd be a little sad if they actually made them into an actual army. :(

shabbadoo
03-12-2009, 08:27
Your kidding right? The DA are not fleet based, they have the "Rock" and are said as having a "home world".

:rolleyes:

When a chapter has an asteroid with a fortress on it, and they bolt some engines and a warp drive onto it, and they sail it around the galaxy collecting new recruits, along with the rest of their fleet, they are a fleet-based chapter.

If a chapter has a home world that is an actual base they are not a fleet-based chapter.

The Rock is not a world, let alone a home world. "Home world" doesn't cut it; especially when it sprouting engines and supports no indigenous life. Very simple.

Hadafix
03-12-2009, 11:40
:rolleyes:

When a chapter has an asteroid with a fortress on it, and they bolt some engines and a warp drive onto it, and they sail it around the galaxy collecting new recruits, along with the rest of their fleet, they are a fleet-based chapter.

If a chapter has a home world that is an actual base they are not a fleet-based chapter.

The Rock is not a world, let alone a home world. "Home world" doesn't cut it; especially when it sprouting engines and supports no indigenous life. Very simple.

You make them sound like Orks. "take one asteroid, fix engines = Spacecraft." Maybe thats why they have a thing for green.

Whats this about a conformation for Crons next year? Where did that rumour come from? How solid is it?

megatrons2nd
03-12-2009, 12:43
Last I knew 'Crons were after DE.

Spectral Dragon
03-12-2009, 18:41
You make them sound like Orks. "take one asteroid, fix engines = Spacecraft." Maybe thats why they have a thing for green.

Whats this about a conformation for Crons next year? Where did that rumour come from? How solid is it?

This came from some discussion with Harry in another thread that has since moved to general discussion. They can come as early as fall of this upcoming year year, perhaps as late as the first release of 2011.

Plastic Parody
03-12-2009, 18:46
In summary, Dark Angels are slightly Codex divergeant, but Blood Angels are totally Codex.

Until the next dex is out when someone will be riding a giant bat and its all vampires and blood sucking nonsense ;)

szlachcic
03-12-2009, 20:21
Until the next dex is out when someone will be riding a giant bat and its all vampires and blood sucking nonsense ;)

Hahaha, I know I should be worried about something like this happening, but it made me laugh.

mullinstron
04-12-2009, 01:03
Bit early to say I'm afraid but it's a good idea to look at the metals and consider what could be transferred to plastic.

Plus lots of cool BA stuff to make other chapters moan ;)

Plastic Baal , Plastic Death company, Plastic Honor guard/VAS is my guess . Is there anything else that is even metal for the BA?

~m

The Dude
04-12-2009, 01:18
I'd be more inclined to guess a single plastic Blood Angels box which can be used to make Vets, Honour Guard, Death Company or regular Blood Angels depending on how nuts you go with the bits.

MajorWesJanson
04-12-2009, 01:20
BA would be an easy codex to put out. Plastic Baal, infantry upgrade sprue for PA which can bundle with Assault marines for VAS or normal troops for BA specific stuff, Plastic Ven Dreadnought with options for Furioso.

3 kits in plastic, new metal set of Death Company like the BT Sword Breathren box, 3-5 metal characters, either new or redone.

Ivellis
04-12-2009, 01:25
Plastic assault squad box akin to the new wolf pack, so it could make a VAS squad, assault squad, or be mixed with other boxes to make DC, tac squads, etc. I think the wolf pack will be the future for any chapter or traitor legion released.

mullinstron
04-12-2009, 01:56
I'd be more inclined to guess a single plastic Blood Angels box which can be used to make Vets, Honour Guard, Death Company or regular Blood Angels depending on how nuts you go with the bits.

This would be the best. The new spacewolf box was amazing. You could make 20 Grey hunters from the same box. (Combined with a normal tac squad that is.)

~m

Hashshashin
04-12-2009, 03:56
Although the Wolf's sprue is way more packed and offers a higher level of customization the DA sprues(one vehicle, one infantry) were the same idea, and really the templars sprue was the original for this i think, its flaw was you couldn't actually make any marines with it without adding it to a Tac sqaud if IRCC.

Surely the BA's will get an upgrade sprue that will cover all kinds of bases, with the recent release of SH there's termies around and I think we can infer that the style will follow that.

As far as a vehicle sprue, it'd be interesting to see if they bundle some dread parts with the Baal predator load-out because I don't see two vehicle kits for BA's.

Emeraldw
04-12-2009, 05:33
I'd be more inclined to guess a single plastic Blood Angels box which can be used to make Vets, Honour Guard, Death Company or regular Blood Angels depending on how nuts you go with the bits.

If It is as good quality as the space wolf box then I don't see that being a problem.

Griffindale
04-12-2009, 05:46
I find myself wishing I had read the Space Hulk literature that came with the new game for insight into any direction they might be going in with the chapter.

seraphius
04-12-2009, 08:39
3 kits in plastic, new metal set of Death Company like the BT Sword Breathren box, 3-5 metal characters, either new or redone.

I pray to all the chaos gods and the almighty emperor that they don`t make the Death comp in metal.

With a squad like that, who is made of pure win and madness, the ways we could convert them is endless, kinda hard with metal.

But i am thinking as well that we get one box that you can use for normal marines, veterans and death comp. makes more sense.

MajorWesJanson
04-12-2009, 10:16
As far as a vehicle sprue, it'd be interesting to see if they bundle some dread parts with the Baal predator load-out because I don't see two vehicle kits for BA's.

Depending on the size, thy could fit a set of LR doors, a Rhino front panel and doors, a dreadnought front panel or two, dreadnought shins, guns and ammo box for a predator, and heavy flamers for pred sponsons. maybe some supercharger bits for rhino chassis too.

Ghal Maraz
04-12-2009, 10:25
I find myself wishing I had read the Space Hulk literature that came with the new game for insight into any direction they might be going in with the chapter.

I don't think this could have helped you, because that story is set in the past of the actual timeline (with Mephiston still being a regular Librarian).

Koris
04-12-2009, 11:19
Plastic Baal , Plastic Death company, Plastic Honor guard/VAS is my guess . Is there anything else that is even metal for the BA?

~m


The Furioso Dreadnought.
Who knows if there will be a whole new dreadnought kit for it, but I would be suprised if there wasn't at the very least something like a new plastic right arm and a new faceplate on the general BA sprue...

Urath
05-12-2009, 00:19
Depending on the size, thy could fit a set of LR doors, a Rhino front panel and doors, a dreadnought front panel or two, dreadnought shins, guns and ammo box for a predator, and heavy flamers for pred sponsons. maybe some supercharger bits for rhino chassis too.

Aye, they did it to an extent with the Space Wolf, Black Templar and Dark Angels chapter uprade kits; it should be possible with the Blood Angels; unless they go truly overboard and release two jam packed kits.

Blood sergeant
06-12-2009, 03:41
Post from Bolter and chainsword.

From GW Newsletter:
QUOTE
Coming in March, Battle Missions is a brand-new supplement for Warhammer 40,000 that expands on the basic missions found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Each of the thirty-something scenarios detailed in Battle Missions has been designed to allow you to fight the sort of battles normally the subject of Black Library novels. From daring raids and assassinations, to breakthroughs and last stands, Battle Missions will allow your army to play in a way that reflects its background. No matter what Warhammer 40,000 army you collect this exciting new supplement will open up a whole new gaming experience.

Of course it just wouldn't be the same if there weren't some great new miniatures to fight through these missions with. Fortunately, there will be new sets for Space Marines, Orks and the Imperial Guard released alongside Battle Missions in March.


So, there goes our March window...

April surelly won't be a 40k release then
May is Fantasy (there is talk about Tomb Kings)
June LOTR?
July 8th Ed Fantasy
August ??? Probably BAs?

daboarder
06-12-2009, 03:42
don't take that last part as a rumor it was merely speculation on the part of someone else

Blood sergeant
06-12-2009, 03:46
Yeah but the the there goes our March window comment was probably correct. Right?

Harry
06-12-2009, 05:02
Except ... maybe they were never in a 'March window'.
That may have just been the collective wisdom. (See first post).
Maybe they were always in an 'April window' and other stuff was always in March.

Scryer in the Darkness
06-12-2009, 05:08
Aw Harry, no pun? I am sad panda. :cries:

:D

Harry
06-12-2009, 05:10
LOL while you posting I had been back to my post to make it a bit more vague. :D

Scryer in the Darkness
06-12-2009, 05:16
LOL while you posting I had been back to my post to make it a bit more vague. :D

Yeah I saw that (that's why I edited my post to remove my quote of your text). ;) I was going to make a punnish comment about "collective" wisdom, but it was a bit weak. :D

TalonZahn
06-12-2009, 05:27
Yeah but the the there goes our March window comment was probably correct. Right?

Actually I believe the wording was that March was "close enough", not that March was THE month.

Angeloftheblood
06-12-2009, 08:16
so harry was battle missions the other half of the story i guess really the first half

Harry
06-12-2009, 10:41
No. No one else was talking about Battle Missions recently so I didn't. I posted when the rumour first came out. I decided as there was no chatter about it that maybe it was supposed to be another secret and kept quiet. :D

The 'Blood angels are only half the story' comment meant that Blood Angels are only half the SM releases planned for next year.

ant1clock
06-12-2009, 11:06
So Blood Angels are April. Go on say it is so. Say it is so. The tension is killing me. I feel the Black Rage rising, come on Harry throw me a bone here.

Despite all that I am quite looking forward to the mission book.

Ivellis
06-12-2009, 11:48
I really hope when you say only half of the SM releases you mean a generic SM, that could be applied to CSM. As in codex Legions or similar.

Please let it be so! :(

(Why must my favorite army concepts be left in the ditch? DE, Legions, Necrons...)

Angeloftheblood
06-12-2009, 13:12
No. No one else was talking about Battle Missions recently so I didn't. I posted when the rumour first came out. I decided as there was no chatter about it that maybe it was supposed to be another secret and kept quiet. :D

The 'Blood angels are only half the story' comment meant that Blood Angels are only half the SM releases planned for next year.

So can you give us a sooner or later then march?

TheHarrower
06-12-2009, 16:17
I pray to all the chaos gods and the almighty emperor that they don`t make the Death comp in metal.

I don't think you have to worry. That wouldn't make a lot of sense. My guess would be:

Plastic Terminators - After Space Hulk and the way they did the Wolf Guard, I think this is a pretty good bet.
Blood Pack - A plastic set just like the SW Wolf Pack, but filled with tons of Blood Angel goodness that will enable you to make Assault Vets, Honour Guard, and Death Company.

I don't think we'll get two plastic vehicle kits, so I only think we'll get one of the following:
Plastic Dread - With options to upgrade to a Death Company Dread.
Plastic Baal - Hopefully with a cool bit for the overcharged engine.

If we're lucky, maybe we'll get a vehicle upgrade sprue with bitz for both the Baal Predator and the Dread. Fingers crossed!

MajorWesJanson
06-12-2009, 16:20
They could always recut the basic pred to add Baal parts onto it, not that hard.
Given how densely they pack parts on now days, they could even merge the turret and sponson sprue onto one larger chassis sized sprue, maybe add some of the vehicle upgrade bits too, then they could drop two sprues from the box.

Hadafix
06-12-2009, 17:24
The 'Blood angels are only half the story' comment meant that Blood Angels are only half the SM releases planned for next year.

And its that little tit bit that is bother a hope and exasperation. New generic SM release is possible with the new missions, is that it? Or are we talking a new codex?

Plastic or Codex? There are only 3 SM variants (4 if GK are in, but they are really a =][= variant) left for a codex release, unless they split the CSM in to Legions & Renegades, then its 4(5) so any SM not released 2010 will be 2011-12 on the outside.

If they redo the CSM, maybe there will be a Legions upgrade sprues for all the different Legions. "convert and be damned"

Koris
07-12-2009, 11:53
Agreed.

Koris I didn't mean to suggest your mate was telling you lies.
In fact I have said on here myself that Grey knights are in the pipeline.
You seemed to be sure they were in the picture for 2010 ('October' I think you said)
I was trying to suggest they were a little bit further away still.
I know when they started this project and I can't see them finishing it by then.

I often times get things wrong ... piecing together rumours is not an exact science ... this could be one of those times.

Apologies if I came across as a ****. :D

Ahh ok, no worries. I may have jumped in with both feet also, so my apologies.
I did say October indeed, but this was merely my thoughts and guessing based on the previous 2 years release schedule.
Although as this is meant to be Fantasy year?? Perhaps that big release post Games Day will be a fantasy one, that would also make sense.
I've no hint as to when the Grey Knights will see the light of day. But I don't think it will be too long, However I believe its nailed on to be Codex Inquisition. Covering all 3 factions.

Just discovered this Battle missions, surely they won't release Codex: BA in the same month? And if it is a subsequent month, it can't make sense to release BA stuff in the Battle Missions release if the Codex comes straight after...

Brucopeloso
07-12-2009, 14:45
So to recap we'll have the following:
Nids: January
Mission Book: March
Blood Angels: April
Third Codex (fllet marines): TBD

Dear mr. Pie man is that correct? Would that leave space for a fourth codex in 2010?

Lord Malorne
07-12-2009, 15:08
I hope not, the moans of 2 marines books next year will be load enough, to balance you would need at least a 2:1 ratio in favour of xenos books (not gonna happen) let alone the rumour of a fantasy year (yeah right).

Lord Malorneoso

massey
07-12-2009, 20:56
I'm not worried about balance. Fact is, there are more imperial players, so they get more books. Is it a self-induced cycle? Maybe. But it is what it is.

I think enough non-denials have come out that we can safely say the "fleet marines" are Black Templars. They should be an easy update, they've already got a lot of plastic, and their rules are pretty old. Yes, I know they aren't as old as some other armies, but for a (here, at least) fairly common marine chapter to still have an armory, that's old. GW appears to be getting the low-hanging fruit lately.

Lord Exander
08-12-2009, 09:05
Four 3rd Edition dexes still in circulation and we're looking at two more Space Marine dexes in 2010. So sad...

Scorcher505
08-12-2009, 13:56
Four 3rd Edition dexes still in circulation and we're looking at two more Space Marine dexes in 2010. So sad...

It is all about money. Sad yes but GW is first and foremost a business. They have to make a profit, and SM are profitable. They have the largest fanbase in terms of people who have armies, so they have the most interest and the most potential to make profit.

Lord Malorne
08-12-2009, 14:09
All true, sadly most gamers just cannot accept that.

Lord Malorne505

massey
08-12-2009, 14:15
Four 3rd Edition dexes still in circulation and we're looking at two more Space Marine dexes in 2010. So sad...

If there were more than 4 Dark Eldar players, I'd be worried about them.

As it is, there are 2 types of DE player. The first is the guy who bought them way back at the beginning of 3rd edition. The second is the guy who bought them more recently, wanting a different type of army. The first guy saw the writing on the wall years ago. If those players were that desperate for an update, they'd have switched armies long before now. Any harm GW did to those people has long been done. The second guy, he got what he wished for, an army nobody else has. Now he sees the results of that choice.

Plus, everything we've been told about Dark Eldar is that Jes is working on the models and Phil Kelly is writing the codex. If GW's best designers are working on them as a high priority, I think players should be satisfied. I don't see how a different codex written by somebody else and models designed by somebody else really impact DE's release date. Apparently the problems that DE have had have been entirely about them -- if the big guys aren't satisfied that they've been done right, you gotta go back and do them again.

We've heard little solid about Necrons or Inquisition, but rumors put them in the 2011 range (which is when DE are rumored as well).

Right now, we know this:

Jan: Nids
April: Blood Angels
late '10: (presumably) Black Templars
possible ass end of '10/Jan '11: Dark Eldar/Necrons/Grey Knights (Inq)

There have been hints from Harry and Brimstone that that last slot could be any one of the three. That tells us that those armies should all be nearing completion about the same time. Once we hit that time frame, I think we'll see a lot of them come out, one after the other.

Some of these armies are in the situation of "they'll be done when they're done". Not doing Blood Angels doesn't speed that up.

megatrons2nd
08-12-2009, 15:30
If all the armies had 6 variants we just might sell the same as Marines. Selling 1 kit to fill the needs of so many armies does artificially inflate the actual popularity of an army. This also doesn't take into account the terrain builders who buy the kit to trash it for a destroyed version or just for battlefield debris. Also as a new player the GW shops I went in all handed me Marines when I was looking to start playing, and they are always included in the main box which makes them cheaper to start and continue to build. It doesn't mean they are more popular just pushed more emphatically, which leads to more sales, even when the player ends up not liking them.

williamhm
08-12-2009, 17:33
I really hope they do BA well. They were the second army I picked up after Necrons which were boring as heck. If DE had been better supported I'd have gone with them, as is Ill probably wait to get back in the game till after they are released. So hope they get released sooner rather than later, but Ill still always have a soft spot for BA.

Spiney Norman
08-12-2009, 18:10
Nope, he's apparently doing the necron dex, and he's not that bad, his space marine dex came out well...

Oh dear god you'd better not be serious, I've had to endure years of Mr Wards butchery of the LotR background, not to mention his ignominious rule writing, the last thing I want is for them to let him loose on my fav 40k army as well...

xNickBaranx
08-12-2009, 18:10
If all the armies had 6 variants we just might sell the same as Marines. Selling 1 kit to fill the needs of so many armies does artificially inflate the actual popularity of an army. This also doesn't take into account the terrain builders who buy the kit to trash it for a destroyed version or just for battlefield debris. Also as a new player the GW shops I went in all handed me Marines when I was looking to start playing, and they are always included in the main box which makes them cheaper to start and continue to build. It doesn't mean they are more popular just pushed more emphatically, which leads to more sales, even when the player ends up not liking them.

This is a commonly held yet largely erroneous theory that has no basis in actual buying trends.

Certain archetypes have very limited appeal. You never run into a new D+D group where everyone wants to be the priest. You will never see Dwarfs outsell The Empire or Orcs, even if Disney re-releases Snow White or when we one day see a movie rendition of The Hobbit. To most people, the Dwarf archetype just isn't that cool and you can hype them to death and you'll see a slight bump in sales, but that's it.

The Space Marine archetype - human super soldiers in Star Wars Stormtrooper-esque armour - its totally bad ass, and you don't need a hype machine for people to be moths to the flame. And all of what I am saying is backed by a decade of gaming store experience.

Regardless, I'm slightly shocked at the thought of BA's and BT's in the same year if that's how it goes down, but maybe they're trying to balance out that this year might not be having the same selling power that the year Apocalypse came out did. No matter what you want as an individual, they have to keep the stock holders happy, for better or for worse.

massey
08-12-2009, 19:09
I agree. I've seen new guys wander into the local game store, and I've seen where their eyes are drawn. When people walk over to the GW section of the store, I would say at least half of those who stop and look at anything, look at marines. The other half look at other stuff, but it's pretty consistent that marines get a lot of attention.

One might just as easily argue that the marine variants dilute the sales. After all, if I have a Blood Angel army, I'm not going to buy the Marneus Calgar box set. If they just had one big book of Space Marines, with every variant contained within, SM players would all flock to that one book. So if there are a million marine players out there (current distribution, we'll say, being 200K Dark Angels, 200K Blood Angels, 200K Black Templars, 200K Space Wolves, and 200K Ultramarines), you could combine them all together and have them all buy the same book. Instead of "pushing marines down our throats" with multiple books, one might say that they are just dividing up the players who would buy marines anyway. I don't buy it, but there's just as much evidence for that as for the idea that they're forcing marines down our throats.

You're going to put out variants of your most popular stuff. So an ice cream place has chocolate, dutch chocolate, rocky road, chocolate almond, triple chocolate, etc. You don't get 6 different variants of pumpkin ice cream. McDonalds has lots of variations of hamburger and fries. Sure, you can get a salad there, but combo meals #1-10 are probably going to be a variant of burger and fries. Then meal #11 will be chicken mcnuggets or something, #12 will be a salad, etc (note: I don't remember what the exact combo meal numbers are).

Maines pay for everything else, and they're an easy update. Both BT and BA have been waiting a long time for a new book (not as long as some, but longer than others). I see no harm in making some easy updates when their attention is obviously distracted by 8th edition Fantasy.

SPYDER68
08-12-2009, 19:17
As fast as they are putting out codex's... 3 a year it seems.. Soon as Blood angels and Black Templar are done.. that only leaves dark angels... Then we can start seeing chaos books and xeno's coming.

Sooner we get the marines over with sooner we can see the next Codex Space marines.. gah.. nvm..

Sildani
08-12-2009, 19:18
Good stuff massey. Look at it this way: BA and DA, or BT, whichever, are going to help pay for all the lovely, lovely DE minis Goodwin and Diaz are currently working their talented fingers to the bone for. So go Marines. They're making stuff like a plastic Revenant kit possible.

-That's pure speculation, mind.

ant1clock
08-12-2009, 20:05
I've only been playing 40k for three months, so I'm fairly new. But as said above gravitating to marines is easy, given the image of superhuman warriors on the back foot battling foul xenos and traitor marines. At the risk of being deep at 40 plus even now the bullied school boy geek in me wants to be a marine, and I'll bet there is a few more like me out there.

For me putting all the marines in one book would dilute the effect and pulling power that different chapter codexs have. Because even although I want to be a marine I also want to be different. I originally chose the Blood Angels because my favorite colour is red and the codex was free at a time I was buying the started set and the paint, brushes etc. But now I'm hooked, no other marine chapter will do. I will not become a Blood Other and play the Marine Codex. I will hold up my PDF codex with pride.

But wait the Tyranid codex looks good. I've always wanted to puch someones face in with my tongue.

havik110
08-12-2009, 21:34
I'm sorry you missed the subtlety of his backstory.

He wasn't scarred, half his face was frozen in a horrible rictus by a weirdboy psychic attack.

It was due to the Blood Angels underlying love of beautiful things that Tycho felt the need to cover his face. This goes to the core dichotomy of the Blood Angels.

His hatred of the Orks was what's so cool about him. They had caused him personal affront by not only marring his perfect visage, but essentially entering his mind to do so.

Blanket revenge is always a cool motivation.

I wasn't overly fond of him going to the Death Company, but the bit of fluff about his demise is one of the best character resolutions GW have ever written. Way better than Eldrad.

I also liked that he remained armed with a Combi-Weapon throughout the Blood Angels transformation into a "Close Combat Army".

It's difficult to make him interesting and characterful without making him only useful against Orks though.

Either way, I will always have a soft spot for Tycho.

Yeah but GW has been going away from fluff based stats for a while now...Do you remember where you were when the BA stopped caring when the talons of horus showed up in a game? I know that wasnt much but it was a part of the fluff.

Same could be said about wolves vs DA and 1000 Sons...making a few changes based on who you are playing goes back to the point that this is a RPG based game and Fluff should have a point in it.

I would love if BA got Laz Cutter's back or you could have your last thunder hammer termie detonate his hammer to take out some boyz or bugs...

As far as tycho I think the BA should have a DC Furisio Character and Tcho could be it. He could almost be a chaos dread where he is fighting to stay in control but going nuts slowly but surly...

vahouth
08-12-2009, 21:55
As far as tycho I think the BA should have a DC Furisio Character and Tcho could be it. He could almost be a chaos dread where he is fighting to stay in control but going nuts slowly but surly...

Now that's an interesting idea!
Cheers m8

GrogDaTyrant
08-12-2009, 22:11
I agree. I've seen new guys wander into the local game store, and I've seen where their eyes are drawn. When people walk over to the GW section of the store, I would say at least half of those who stop and look at anything, look at marines. The other half look at other stuff, but it's pretty consistent that marines get a lot of attention.

Well it's not like there's much else for them to look at... Marines do take up well over 50% of the wall space. And it should be noted that the player base in most indepedent retailers tends to be a *little* more evenly distrubuted between armies. It's just speculation, but I attribute it largely to most of the Independents in my area not hyping the marines to new players as much (if they can be bothered to hype anything at all...).

Marketing is a very powerful tool. If you emphasize something, people tend to naturally gravitate towards what is purposely portrayed as 'most favorable'. GW practically crams Space Marines down every new 40k player's throat. From the starter set (which is in the Marine's favor), to the the posters, display armies, terrain, wall space, White Dwarf... etc. During 3rd Ed, I worked as a redshirt and on an expiriment we swapped out the intro game armies for Nids vs Guard for 2 months. Care to guess what 2 armies quickly became the most common 'beginner' armies?

Motley
08-12-2009, 22:37
Whatever for wishlisting here is mine:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228288

And is in the right place guys..................;)

On the topic.... any other news apart from the ones we already have?

Schedule for April...

Possible multiples plastic kids alas space wolves

New special characters???

More assault related??

Someone????....................:(

The Dude
08-12-2009, 22:43
As far as tycho I think the BA should have a DC Furisio Character and Tcho could be it. He could almost be a chaos dread where he is fighting to stay in control but going nuts slowly but surly...

Oh God no! I hated the idea of Morior more than the way Death Company have been taken since 3rd edition.

Why would you risk a rare and valuable war-machine by putting a psycopath in it? More importantly, why would you deny your brother the glorious and noble death he deserves, thereby ending his suffering, just to stick him in said warmachine.

It doesn't make sense!

Motley
08-12-2009, 22:46
Oh God no! I hated the idea of Morior more than the way Death Company have been taken since 3rd edition.

Why would you risk a rare and valuable war-machine by putting a psycopath in it? More importantly, why would you deny your brother the glorious and noble death he deserves, thereby ending his suffering, just to stick him in said warmachine.

It doesn't make sense!


hahahahhaa Good point dude!!!!

Blood sergeant
08-12-2009, 23:09
Oh God no! I hated the idea of Morior more than the way Death Company have been taken since 3rd edition.

Why would you risk a rare and valuable war-machine by putting a psycopath in it? More importantly, why would you deny your brother the glorious and noble death he deserves, thereby ending his suffering, just to stick him in said warmachine.

It doesn't make sense!

Because this is war and you will do whatever it takes to win. And also about the death company.. This is what blood angels are all about, the black rage.

The Dude
08-12-2009, 23:20
Because this is war and you will do whatever it takes to win. And also about the death company.. This is what blood angels are all about, the black rage.

No. No it is not. The Blood Angels do not embrace the Black Rage, they bust their guts to avoid it.

It happens, so they stick all those affected in a special squad and point them in the direction of the enemy so that they can serve the Emperor one last time.

In the history of the Blood Angels, only ONE MARINE has ever survived the Black Rage, and he is now the Chief Librarian.

The Black Rage is a death sentence, and Dreadnaughts are used to save the lives of great tacticians and heroes. If there’s nothing left of that hero, why use him for a Dread?

Again, it does not make sense.

Zanzibarthefirst
08-12-2009, 23:26
Death Company do not really need their won box. IMOa box similar to the Sw is all you need. Death Comapny are simply BA painted black, no special parts are needed to be honest. the honor guard might be a bit idfficult to do as you'd need bits for a techmarine in although you coudl just say combine the kit with the command squad and you are sorted. Maybe have a boxset of 5 complete marines with jumpacks and backpack options, meltaguns and power weapons etc... techmarine parts and you are sorted. If the dreadnaught kit is re-done in March then ther eis one less thing needed when BA come out. Finally a Direct-Order only sprue for vehcile bits and you're sorted.

Ordred
09-12-2009, 00:25
Kinda agree with the Dude on the whole 'waste of a dreadnaught' idea, but playing devil's advocate: What if a normal captain, inside a dreadnaught, succumbed to the black rage the eve of a battle?

Can't really just unplug him - denying his final service, gotta keep him in that armour, paint it black, and hope that he meets his death on the battlefield.

massey
09-12-2009, 00:25
Well it's not like there's much else for them to look at... Marines do take up well over 50% of the wall space. And it should be noted that the player base in most indepedent retailers tends to be a *little* more evenly distrubuted between armies. It's just speculation, but I attribute it largely to most of the Independents in my area not hyping the marines to new players as much (if they can be bothered to hype anything at all...).

Marketing is a very powerful tool. If you emphasize something, people tend to naturally gravitate towards what is purposely portrayed as 'most favorable'. GW practically crams Space Marines down every new 40k player's throat. From the starter set (which is in the Marine's favor), to the the posters, display armies, terrain, wall space, White Dwarf... etc. During 3rd Ed, I worked as a redshirt and on an expiriment we swapped out the intro game armies for Nids vs Guard for 2 months. Care to guess what 2 armies quickly became the most common 'beginner' armies?

Marines don't take up 50% of wall space at our store. They take up the same amount of space as Orks, Chaos, and Eldar. Plus, marines aren't always in stock, because they keep selling out.

Blood sergeant
09-12-2009, 00:34
No. No it is not. The Blood Angels do not embrace the Black Rage, they bust their guts to avoid it.

It happens, so they stick all those affected in a special squad and point them in the direction of the enemy so that they can serve the Emperor one last time.

In the history of the Blood Angels, only ONE MARINE has ever survived the Black Rage, and he is now the Chief Librarian.

The Black Rage is a death sentence, and Dreadnaughts are used to save the lives of great tacticians and heroes. If there’s nothing left of that hero, why use him for a Dread?

Again, it does not make sense.

I didn't say they embrace it. It's just a major part of their theme and yes I know about Mephiston, been playing the Angels for years now.

About the dreadnoughts, they "save" their lives cause they want them to fight and they already prooved they are worthy warriors so they preserve them after death. They don't attach them to a machine which enjoys cosy places and drinks tea. So if we take into account that a space marine that has been aflicted by the black rage is way more effective in combat (close combat at least) then why not make him a dreadnought and raise his combat efficiency even more?

There are ways to control the death company after all, be it marines or dreadnoughts.

Suspicions
09-12-2009, 00:39
No. No it is not. The Blood Angels do not embrace the Black Rage, they bust their guts to avoid it.

It happens, so they stick all those affected in a special squad and point them in the direction of the enemy so that they can serve the Emperor one last time.

In the history of the Blood Angels, only ONE MARINE has ever survived the Black Rage, and he is now the Chief Librarian.

The Black Rage is a death sentence, and Dreadnaughts are used to save the lives of great tacticians and heroes. If there’s nothing left of that hero, why use him for a Dread?

Again, it does not make sense.

I've actually always seen it the other way around...and agree with Ordred. That a great hero or tactician who was interned in a dreadnought later fell to the Black Rage. Even possessing a mostly dessicated body and a greater resolve of will is not proof against the possibility of lapsing into the Black Rage (I recall a bit of fluff that some such Dreadnoughts are adapted to accommodate the Red Thirst as well...blood drinkers, bah!)

I could see a new plastic Dreadnought kit, but for what it's worth, I feel you can make a perfectly good Furioso out of the Ironclad.

The Dude
09-12-2009, 00:45
I've actually always seen it the other way around...and agree with Ordred. That a great hero or tactician who was interned in a dreadnought later fell to the Black Rage. Even possessing a mostly dessicated body and a greater resolve of will is not proof against the possibility of lapsing into the Black Rage (I recall a bit of fluff that some such Dreadnoughts are adapted to accommodate the Red Thirst as well...blood drinkers, bah!)

This makes more sense, but I'm still iffy about it. My point was based on the idea of Tycho being Dreadified after falling.

It should be rare as hens teeth though. It shouldn't be a standard option, but a unique one, named character or no.

tcraigen
09-12-2009, 03:19
This makes more sense, but I'm still iffy about it. My point was based on the idea of Tycho being Dreadified after falling.

It should be rare as hens teeth though. It shouldn't be a standard option, but a unique one, named character or no.

I was under the impression that Morior fell after in the dread, was I wrong? This would be worse the falling normally as it would be harder to get your self killed I would think. Tycho being put in a dread would probably not be worth it, look I have giant digi-lasers, though I do remember a great conversion of him ages ago with the normal hands replaced with gazguls claws

Gearux
09-12-2009, 03:28
I'm not a BA player, so forgive me for asking what kind of parts a sprue for them would have? Theres the Death Company, the honor guard, and Sanguinary Priest for infantry and then the Furioso and Baal pred for vehicles. Seems like they just need some minor updates as far as minis go...

Azzy
09-12-2009, 04:41
Redone special characters, too, as many of the current ones are from 2nd edition (I believe) and look pretty awful.

thenurgler
09-12-2009, 06:01
Death Company dreadnoughts are certainly not interned as Death Company. Moriar's fluff was certainly that of a fallen hero who succumbed to the black rage inside.

Similarly, other Dreadnoughts would probably be the same scenario. Also keep in mind that those interned in a Dreadnought can be thousands of years old. They would have a lot longer time to succumb to the rage.

Fobster
09-12-2009, 07:00
I'm not a BA player, so forgive me for asking what kind of parts a sprue for them would have? Theres the Death Company, the honor guard, and Sanguinary Priest for infantry and then the Furioso and Baal pred for vehicles. Seems like they just need some minor updates as far as minis go...

Spot on. That's why they are doing it. Will most likely be a generic BA infantry kit like the space wolf set. Allowing you to combine them with the rest of the line and Blood Angelfy your stuff. Couple of new metals, yipee.

Bloodknight
09-12-2009, 08:47
Oh God no! I hated the idea of Morior more than the way Death Company have been taken since 3rd edition.

I think they should retcon him into a Flesh Tearer and he should make Death Company into Troops. That way you could get BA and FT out of the codex, just like the SM codex defines chapters via characters.

Thanghul
09-12-2009, 13:07
No. No it is not. The Blood Angels do not embrace the Black Rage, they bust their guts to avoid it.

It happens, so they stick all those affected in a special squad and point them in the direction of the enemy so that they can serve the Emperor one last time.

In the history of the Blood Angels, only ONE MARINE has ever survived the Black Rage, and he is now the Chief Librarian.

The Black Rage is a death sentence, and Dreadnaughts are used to save the lives of great tacticians and heroes. If there’s nothing left of that hero, why use him for a Dread?

Again, it does not make sense.

For the Flesh Tearers though....

Karhedron
09-12-2009, 16:11
Redone special characters, too, as many of the current ones are from 2nd edition (I believe) and look pretty awful.

Actually most of the 2nd ed BA characters still look good today. Jes Goodwin's sculpts usually stand the test of time. :) The poses are a bit static but apart from that they are nice models.

Given that only 1 SW character got redone, I don't think they will be rushing out a whole new line of character minis. My guess is 1 character will blinging update along the lines of Calgar and Njal but I don't know who to expect. Dante and Mephitson look really cool already. Tycho is less likely since we know he died on Armageddon and he was nothing special anyway. Corbulo is a possibilty since Sanguinary Priests are unique to the Blood Angels.

It would also provide the opportunity to give the Grail some suitably eye-watering bonuses just to ensure he becomes a "must have" character.

Angeloftheblood
09-12-2009, 21:41
Oh God no! I hated the idea of Morior more than the way Death Company have been taken since 3rd edition.

Why would you risk a rare and valuable war-machine by putting a psycopath in it? More importantly, why would you deny your brother the glorious and noble death he deserves, thereby ending his suffering, just to stick him in said warmachine.

It doesn't make sense!

Moriar was a captain who was put in a dread and when he awoke he fell to the black rage they didnt put him in after he fell.


Actually most of the 2nd ed BA characters still look good today. Jes Goodwin's sculpts usually stand the test of time. :) The poses are a bit static but apart from that they are nice models.

Given that only 1 SW character got redone, I don't think they will be rushing out a whole new line of character minis. My guess is 1 character will blinging update along the lines of Calgar and Njal but I don't know who to expect. Dante and Mephitson look really cool already. Tycho is less likely since we know he died on Armageddon and he was nothing special anyway. Corbulo is a possibilty since Sanguinary Priests are unique to the Blood Angels.

It would also provide the opportunity to give the Grail some suitably eye-watering bonuses just to ensure he becomes a "must have" character.

it will be lemartes i will put money on it

SanguinaryDan
09-12-2009, 22:00
As long as they replace Disco Lemartes. If he remains the official fig I may have to keep converting my own. Darn.;)

ThePope
09-12-2009, 22:07
As long as they replace Disco Lemartes. If he remains the official fig I may have to keep converting my own. Darn.;)

LOTD sergeant all the way.

Zap Branigan!
09-12-2009, 22:20
i heard that death company are getting three wounds each in the next codex instead of feel no pain.dont ask where i heard this because no source is ever good enough for forums :P

mullinstron
09-12-2009, 22:23
FNP seems pretty standard now a days for tough units. Although 3 wounds would be interesting.

So ...um ...where did you hear this rumor from? :p

~m

Splata
09-12-2009, 22:28
What I have never understood is how there is a whole squad of death company per army of Blood angels.

Once a marine falls to the Black Rage that is curtains for them. It was amazing that Mephiston last 3 days (fluff may be slightly off). As a result it is obvious that these Raging marines don't last long. So how does a chapter keep up with recruitment if their marines fall to the black rage this regularily.

After reading some black library books it really seems a big deal when they lose ONE marine in battle. How can this chapter accomodate a whole squad as well as other casualties! The logistics seem way off!

SanguinaryDan
09-12-2009, 23:04
And what if they are the only squad of Death Company on the entire planet?

Too often people forget that the game we are playing on the tabletop is but one tiny part of what's probably a world spanning war. Sure you can play with the true grunts, no "Special" ICs, no unusual weapons types or units and only the most basic of the basic gear. Probably fun to do a couple of times. But that's not what 40K is actually meant to represent. If it was we'd have fixed army list with no need for HQ ICs or any of the other bits that we all enjoy converting and painting.

I'm sure some folks will **** and moan if DC really does become optional (and not just a lie Jervis tossed in or forgot to edit out) on the field. Heaven knows I had my hairshirt wearing, whiny martyr moments when the .pdf came out. But I adapted. We all did. Or we turned coward and jumped to a different Codex.;) I expect the same cycle all over again come April-May, or whenever.:angel:

The Dude
10-12-2009, 00:02
Moriar was a captain who was put in a dread and when he awoke he fell to the black rage they didnt put him in after he fell.

Do I need to clarify again that my comments were in relation to Tycho being put in a Dread? I said I didn't like the fact that Morior existed (ie, a Marine that fell AFTER interrment) much less purposefully interring an already fallen Marine.


What I have never understood is how there is a whole squad of death company per army of Blood angels.

Once a marine falls to the Black Rage that is curtains for them. It was amazing that Mephiston last 3 days (fluff may be slightly off). As a result it is obvious that these Raging marines don't last long. So how does a chapter keep up with recruitment if their marines fall to the black rage this regularily.

After reading some black library books it really seems a big deal when they lose ONE marine in battle. How can this chapter accomodate a whole squad as well as other casualties! The logistics seem way off!

This goes back to the main reason I hate the way Death Company have been chosen since 3rd edition. It should be entirely possible to fight an engagement without any Death Company.

Now whilst under the current rules it is possible to do this (ie just elect not to take them), it is certainly not advisable (you have already paid for them).

I would rather they become a retinue choice for Chaplains

matthewmayer
10-12-2009, 00:19
I would rather they become a retinue choice for Chaplains

^ This,

I feel this would be much more appropriate, I may even start BA if this were rectified.


Cheers,

Matt

TheHarrower
10-12-2009, 01:17
This goes back to the main reason I hate the way Death Company have been chosen since 3rd edition.

I started 40K with BA in 3rd Edition. Was it different in earlier editions?


It should be entirely possible to fight an engagement without any Death Company.

Indeed. They are by far my favorite unit in all of 40K, but I wouldn't mind playing some games without them.

The Dude
10-12-2009, 01:37
I started 40K with BA in 3rd Edition. Was it different in earlier editions?

In second they were purchased as a unit with a Chaplain included. Sort of like an Uber Assault Squad. They could be equipped individually, much like Wolf Guard can now, with a variety of special close combat weapon options, or Bolters.

They also had 1+1 Wounds, and would lose the bonus wound at the end of the game, so if they had suffered a single wound, they were effectively dead.

goober429
10-12-2009, 02:05
i heard that death company are getting three wounds each in the next codex instead of feel no pain.dont ask where i heard this because no source is ever good enough for forums :P

As much as I'd love to have a multi wound unit in a SM army, i highly doubt it would ever happen, especially not DC. There would be too much crying. That being said, I'd be happy with them counting as scoring units, hell free jump packs would be good too.

The Dude
10-12-2009, 02:14
As much as I'd love to have a multi wound unit in a SM army, i highly doubt it would ever happen, especially not DC. There would be too much crying. That being said, I'd be happy with them counting as scoring units, hell free jump packs would be good too.

They should absolutely NOT count as scoring units.

I'd like to see them as units of Lone Wolves. KPs to the enemy if they survive :D

goober429
10-12-2009, 02:42
They should absolutely NOT count as scoring units.

I'd like to see them as units of Lone Wolves. KPs to the enemy if they survive :D

Why no scoring? As long as the 0-1 unit restrictions stay in place it wouldn't be too OP. I'm not asking them to be a troops choice, but counting as scoring would make them into an even bigger target, which is never a bad thing. Sorta like pedro and the sternguard, maybe if you take lemartes or corbulo.... I'd also like rending dropped in favor of power weapons / fists.

The Dude
10-12-2009, 03:26
Why no scoring? As long as the 0-1 unit restrictions stay in place it wouldn't be too OP.

OP or not, it doen't fit thematically. They are barely controlled lunatics who are seeking death in battle. That doesn't mesh with a unit able to hold an objective.

Hashshashin
10-12-2009, 06:42
OP or not, it doen't fit thematically. They are barely controlled lunatics who are seeking death in battle. That doesn't mesh with a unit able to hold an objective.

QFT.

DC should be an option, not a mandatory one, and definitely not a scoring one.

Now that nids are mostly out of the bag there should be some more info coming to light soon about the BA's

Spectral Dragon
10-12-2009, 06:48
....isn't this a place for rumors? At this point I have to sift through 4 pages before I find anything rumor related.

The Dude
10-12-2009, 07:58
....isn't this a place for rumors? At this point I have to sift through 4 pages before I find anything rumor related.

TBH, there probably won't be anything solid here for a while yet.

Koris
10-12-2009, 08:41
Redone special characters, too, as many of the current ones are from 2nd edition (I believe) and look pretty awful.

If the Space Wolves were anything to go by, we can expect 1 redone Special Character.

The question is which?
I really don't like the Lemartes Model, its pretty horrible but the Chplain with jump pack model is gorgeous and as someone has suggested, using the Legion of the Damned Sergeant model as a base for a conversion would be excellent.

I would like to see Corbulo redone. The Current model is nice but its looking old now and is very 2D. If they coupled this with some even more awesome new rules for a brand spanking new model, all the better.

Brother Weasel
10-12-2009, 15:43
I don't think you can use codex: space wolves only getting one character as any sort of evidence that the BA will have one, and only one redone. there may be 1, 2, 3 no one knows but GW and a few peeps there. If we go by history then the next dex after the SM shold have had a snot load of characters, and i'm pretty sure the Nid dex has none... think it's just a matter of wha thtey like and how many minis they can get out on the run.

ThePope
10-12-2009, 15:45
i'm pretty sure the Nid dex has none.

Red Terror, Death Leaper char and Old One Eye.

Brother Weasel
10-12-2009, 16:37
Red Terror, Death Leaper char and Old One Eye.

new released minis?

ThePope
10-12-2009, 16:38
Ah sorry thought you meant general contex

ant1clock
10-12-2009, 18:16
Given that we are starving for hints and rumours about the BA codex, minis when do we think confirmation from GW will come. If we accept as a best case scenario April for release will we be looking at January for some sort of go from GW. How long before the Wolves release did we get confirmation.

What does Harry think (fishing, fishing).;)

Ant1clock

TheHarrower
10-12-2009, 19:02
In second they were purchased as a unit with a Chaplain included. Sort of like an Uber Assault Squad. They could be equipped individually, much like Wolf Guard can now, with a variety of special close combat weapon options, or Bolters.

They also had 1+1 Wounds, and would lose the bonus wound at the end of the game, so if they had suffered a single wound, they were effectively dead.

That is very cool. I wonder why they changed it? I used to hate rolling for Death Company and I don't like paying more for them either with other units.

I'm not so sure about the extra wounds, but it does fit nicely with the way I envision them. I could live with making them an optional retinue for a Chaplain and giving up KPs if they are still alive at the end of the game.


They should absolutely NOT count as scoring units.


Agreed. Its hard to strategically hold down an objective when you are suffering from insane blood rage.

I do hope they do something with the Scouts though. It always annoyed me that they would receive the same sort of training as other Chapter's Scouts yet they didn't know how to hold down an objective.

goober429
10-12-2009, 21:16
OP or not, it doen't fit thematically. They are barely controlled lunatics who are seeking death in battle. That doesn't mesh with a unit able to hold an objective.

unless they're within 6" of a chaplin or sanguinary priest....

vahouth
10-12-2009, 22:50
The DC need Chaplains and Sanguinary Priest to tell them where to point and click, not to stay put.;)

Black Hand
11-12-2009, 00:09
Given that we are starving for hints and rumours about the BA codex, minis when do we think confirmation from GW will come. If we accept as a best case scenario April for release will we be looking at January for some sort of go from GW. How long before the Wolves release did we get confirmation.

What does Harry think (fishing, fishing).;)

Ant1clock


Well we should hopefully hear something about the BA in the next issue of White Dwarf. They are showing off the new LotD models we have already seen and stated that we'll "find out more next issue." Maybe well hear about the BA then as well. I'm hopeful, but I doubt it.

MajorWesJanson
11-12-2009, 02:25
Next WD should be Nids, and whatever Fantasy is coming up, then probably Battlemissions and BA.

Black Hand
11-12-2009, 02:37
Next WD should be Nids, and whatever Fantasy is coming up, then probably Battlemissions and BA.

It will be Nids (and more Skaven). I'm just crossing my fingers on some BA info next month.

Souleater
11-12-2009, 10:31
I'd like to see them as units of Lone Wolves. KPs to the enemy if they survive :D

I'd prefer to see them as almost exactly Lone Wolves.

Even four or five DC seems a lot in one battle. Those kind of loses would quickly cripple the BA.

I would also much rather have the option of DC. I liked them but often ended up using the vanilla codex for those days when i didn't want to use them.

The Dude
11-12-2009, 11:40
I'd prefer to see them as almost exactly Lone Wolves.

Even four or five DC seems a lot in one battle. Those kind of loses would quickly cripple the BA.

I would also much rather have the option of DC. I liked them but often ended up using the vanilla codex for those days when i didn't want to use them.

The thing is, a single optional squad of 5-10 is fine. They group them together and send them where they're best suited.

Lord Mordrid.
13-12-2009, 23:39
yes i do actually ive heard some rumors of that the next codex to be released after tyranids are the "angels of death"... this codex will include the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and your so called fleet based chapter Black Templar. I've heard that the Dark Angels will have the " Hunt the Fallen" ruel return, which will detail as if you kill the chosen indipendent character it counts as a claimed objective that the enemy can't reclaim. thats all i know for them, the Blood Angels on the other hand have rumours that you pay 10 pts for a fast rhino and you can equipt them with assault ramps ( see land raider ruels) and I've heard that you can have a psychic power that alows you to kill the librarian in the begining of your turn but grants your whole army as Fearless, furious charge, feel no pain, and all attacks are rending,... you still get your ruels for death company and as far as black templar no news has been heard !!!!

Belissand
13-12-2009, 23:47
Mind telling where did you hear that?

Brother Captain Alec
14-12-2009, 01:04
yes i do actually ive heard some rumors of that the next codex to be released after tyranids are the "angels of death"... this codex will include the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and your so called fleet based chapter Black Templar. I've heard that the Dark Angels will have the " Hunt the Fallen" ruel return, which will detail as if you kill the chosen indipendent character it counts as a claimed objective that the enemy can't reclaim. thats all i know for them, the Blood Angels on the other hand have rumours that you pay 10 pts for a fast rhino and you can equipt them with assault ramps ( see land raider ruels) and I've heard that you can have a psychic power that alows you to kill the librarian in the begining of your turn but grants your whole army as Fearless, furious charge, feel no pain, and all attacks are rending,... you still get your ruels for death company and as far as black templar no news has been heard !!!!

Yes please explain where you have heard this cause this just sounds like nothing but wish listing.

The Dude
14-12-2009, 02:33
Mind telling where did you hear that?

The voices in his head :angel:

Seriously though, I'm fairly sure a combined Angels of Death dex has been shot down several times.

Lord Mordrid.
14-12-2009, 02:35
i have heard this from my good friend at gw which is the store manager at at sertain mall ... any way they have heard the " rumors " of this codex and the armys but i do not have a wish list for any of them this is just what i have heard ... but if i was going to have any input into a blood angels army i just pray that they make them geard to assault like they did when their first codex was out ... and hopfully dont nerf the dark angels and blood angels as bad as they did in their recent updates

Spectral Dragon
14-12-2009, 03:52
The voices in his head :angel:

Seriously though, I'm fairly sure a combined Angels of Death dex has been shot down several times.

Harry Shot it down first time, as I remember.

Lord Mordrid.
14-12-2009, 04:49
thats just what i have heard now it may be true or not true who knows really but a new blood angels dark angels and black templar would be pretty sweet if the rumor is true

gothgar
14-12-2009, 05:34
Harry Shot it down first time, as I remember.

He shot down a Dark Angels/Blood Angels dex

Doesn't mean he shot down a Black Templar/Blood Angel/Dark Angels Dex

That would be epic, three chapters getting a box at once...

The Dude
14-12-2009, 05:37
He shot down a Dark Angels/Blood Angels dex

Doesn't mean he shot down a Black Templar/Blood Angel/Dark Angels Dex

That would be epic, three chapters getting a box at once...

:eyebrows:

:rolleyes:

*facepalm*

He also didn't say they wouldn't put out a Codex: Stealth Mureenzorz

ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!1!!1!!eleventyone!!!exclaimationmark! !

doghouse
14-12-2009, 06:36
He also didn't say they wouldn't put out a Codex: Stealth Mureenzorz


I am so buying that when it comes out!

dblaz3r
14-12-2009, 07:09
I've heard that the Dark Angels will have the " Hunt the Fallen" ruel return, which will detail as if you kill the chosen indipendent character it counts as a claimed objective that the enemy can't reclaim.

There is a formation in reload called Deathwing Redemption Force that is exactly this. As a Dark Angel player I would hope your source is correct but as one of the resident rumour providers has stated DA would not be getting an update so soon I'll just sit back and wait to see.

Angeloftheblood
14-12-2009, 07:19
ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!1!!1!!eleventyone!!!exclaimationmark! !

perfect purely perfect

cttran77
14-12-2009, 09:22
Hey, this may be a stupid thought (and it may have already been said; this thread is just too darn long for me to be sure), but aren't Blood Ravens fleet based? They also could be "winging in"...

Sinisterfence
14-12-2009, 11:07
ok, Angels of Death has a small chance at being a possibility, what with GW's return to the old style with a lot of new releases, but Black Templars in there aswell?! it doesn't fit in the slightest!!
BA & DA are both first founding chapters with 'Angel' in the name and shared a codex back in 2nd ed. BT are a second founding of the Imperial Fists and have angel nowhere in their name and weren't even around in 2nd ed.

tbh, if they do go with AoD, they aint getting my money if they charge me for 2 armies when I only want 1!

Angeloftheblood
14-12-2009, 15:02
ok, Angels of Death has a small chance at being a possibility, what with GW's return to the old style with a lot of new releases, but Black Templars in there aswell?! it doesn't fit in the slightest!!
BA & DA are both first founding chapters with 'Angel' in the name and shared a codex back in 2nd ed. BT are a second founding of the Imperial Fists and have angel nowhere in their name and weren't even around in 2nd ed.

tbh, if they do go with AoD, they aint getting my money if they charge me for 2 armies when I only want 1!

darn right! via la revolution!

TheHarrower
14-12-2009, 16:30
Seriously though, I'm fairly sure a combined Angels of Death dex has been shot down several times.

Many a times. Not only that, but adding the Black Templars in there makes no sense at all.

TalonZahn
14-12-2009, 16:52
I am so buying that when it comes out!

It's already out.

You just can't see it on the shelf.

Feel around, you'll find it.

;)

warhound
14-12-2009, 16:59
Did anyone else read in the new dwarf about ANOTHER 6 Legion of the damned models being released!?- next month! (Can't remember the page number)

Now THAT is cool- but, I wonder why the split!?

cheers
WARHOUND

MajorWesJanson
14-12-2009, 21:36
Did anyone else read in the new dwarf about ANOTHER 6 Legion of the damned models being released!?- next month! (Can't remember the page number)

Now THAT is cool- but, I wonder why the split!?

cheers
WARHOUND

Probably so they don't overwhelm people in January. There is already Nids and 11 LotD coming out, best to wait another month so people can recover. Plus it spreads interest out a bit so there isn't a 40K gap before Battle Missions.

dblaz3r
14-12-2009, 22:50
..., but aren't Blood Ravens fleet based? They also could be "winging in"...

Has it been stated that "fleet" was referring to a rule based army or space "fleet" based army? I would be inclined to go with the later. I haven't been following this thread so much, the Tyranid one was moving much too fast, so someone could correct me if need be.

TheHarrower
15-12-2009, 01:10
Space fleet based marine chapter.

Suspicions
15-12-2009, 02:34
Huh, Dblaz3r raises an interesting point that I hadn't considered as an interpretation. A "fleet" - based Chapter..."winging in"

Kayvaan Shrike gives Fleet, and the Ravenguard's Chapter symbol is most assuredly winged.

I sincerely doubt this to be the case, and strongly feel that Blood Angels and Dark Angels are what these rumors reference, but we are mere mortals and can only grasp at the straws of vague rumormill interpretation. (I'd still rather see a plastic Thunderhawk as the "second half" of Harry's rumor)

shabbadoo
15-12-2009, 23:25
A Thunderhawk would be cool, but everything else you just mentioned is wrong, especially about Ravenguard, as they are in Codex: Space Marines which makes it kinda obvious that they won't be getting their own individual codex.

The Dude
15-12-2009, 23:37
A Thunderhawk would be cool

What with the Valkarie/Vendetta in the IG dex and the Harpy in the Nid one, it seems GW may be planning to give all new armies some sort of flier (I may be drawing a long bow here) so if not a Thunderhawk, maybe something new that's a bit smaller.

Gotta get the most out of that new flying stand :D

MajorWesJanson
16-12-2009, 00:29
Tau have the Barracuda which is about perfectly sized and balanced for codex inclusion and the flying stand :D

RavenGuard are getting attention from FW, which rules them out for GW work right now. GW tends to put things they are working on themselves off-limits from FW to prevent overlap or conflict.

The Dude
16-12-2009, 00:39
Tau have the Barracuda which is about perfectly sized and balanced for codex inclusion and the flying stand :D

Just checked out a size comparison, and yeah, I could see it working on that stand.

Interesting to see if GW are thinking along the same lines.

MajorWesJanson
16-12-2009, 00:58
It would also fit the "Large model" price and size point that is occupiec by tings like the Land Raider, Battlewagon, and Valkyrie. Plus if they stick it in FA as squadrons, they could sell quite a few.

Jackmojo
16-12-2009, 02:35
The Tau Barracuda (given a bit simpler rule set then FW) would be a great addition to the Tau, a transport for suits is such a great game changer.

Jack

Toadius80
16-12-2009, 02:36
Dude do you realise that with your thunderhawk comment you have probily just opened that old can back up, eve to people over reading every comment you make these day's.?

The Dude
16-12-2009, 02:43
Dude do you realise that with your thunderhawk comment you have probily just opened that old can back up, eve to people over reading every comment you make these day's.?

Really? I think they'd be pretty bloody stupid to read anything more into my perfectly clearly worded post other than that I was speculating based on the last 2 Codices.

Toadius80
16-12-2009, 02:50
That is true, but alas you know what some people are like on here.

Sildani
16-12-2009, 02:51
The Tau Barracuda (given a bit simpler rule set then FW) would be a great addition to the Tau, a transport for suits is such a great game changer.

Jack

Erm, the Barracuda's an air superiority fighter. The Orca is the huge suit transport with next to no guns.

Jackmojo
16-12-2009, 02:58
Erm, the Barracuda's an air superiority fighter. The Orca is the huge suit transport with next to no guns.
*grumble, grumble, silly fish names*

Oops...strike that and replace then I want them to get an Orca :)

Jack

shabbadoo
16-12-2009, 05:29
The can has not been seald for a long time. Every time something new comes out on a large sprue people get all wishful about the T-hawk, and who can blame them. It would be an awesome model kit to have available. On the subject of smaller stuff, the Chaos and Ork fighters and bombers are the right size for the flying stand too. I have a Tau Barracuda and it is perfect as well. Even a Tau Tigershark is around the right size, though perhaps a bit on the large side of things(Baneblade surface area roughly). Then there is the Imperial Aquila, Thunderbolt, and Marauder(#1 on my list beside the T-Hawk). There are lots of fliers that could be done.

Of course none of this has to do with what is coming out soon-ish though.

MajorWesJanson
16-12-2009, 07:36
The Tau Barracuda (given a bit simpler rule set then FW) would be a great addition to the Tau, a transport for suits is such a great game changer.

Jack

Barracuda isn't a transport, you are thinking the Orca. The Barrauda is basically an Ionhead with wings and a missile system. Orcas are big, somewhere between baneblade and shoebox in size.

As for the Thunderhawk comment, from a marketing and technical perspective there are clues that it may be out in the near to mid future, but there is no proof. It's still at the "it would be cool if they did release one" stage of rumors.

The Tigershark is a tad bigger than the Baneblade, but Probably similar volume. I just cant see them releasing it, as it would be an Apoc unit, and is too specialized to sell more than a few, and only to Tau players. I imagine it would be a lot lighter in plastic (mine weighs a lot, almost up with my Warhound) but even the new flying stand they sent with it seems a tad small, and likely to come apart if you stick the shark on it. I'm mounting it on a large base with a trio of small brass rods.

Chaos and Ork Fighters do make sense, as would a Thunderbolt.
A lot of the smaller fliers can be integrated fairly easily into mainline 40K just by making them fast skimmers, bumping up the armor a few points, and maybe giving them scout.

dblaz3r
16-12-2009, 09:59
Huh, Dblaz3r raises an interesting point that I hadn't considered as an interpretation. A "fleet" - based Chapter..."winging in"

Kayvaan Shrike gives Fleet, and the Ravenguard's Chapter symbol is most assuredly winged.

I'm sorry by later I meant the later of the two, referring to a space fleet based army (Templars). I apologize for my misuse of the English language.

Suspicions
16-12-2009, 16:29
No misuse Dblaz3r, you're good, besides the English and we Americans haven't spoken our own language for generations now. I wasn't commenting that the former part of your post being, "a rules related" fleet reference was what you were insinuating.

I was simply elaborating on how widely the interpretations of various rumors can differ. Some even come across as directly contradictory. We haven't got much to go on with rumors being so sparse, so I find that purposely over analyzing the few we do have helps to demonstrate how much we rumor-junkies "need" new rumors to get our fix.

Blood Angels as the new Space Marine models to be released with the 30-mission scenario book does not make a great deal of sense to me. I believe that Blood Angels -will- come out as a separate release at some point after this book, along with a Codex of their own. I just don't see two new books released simultaneously, nor do I see Blood Angel models released without their Codex to support them.

This leads me to believe that the new Marines to be released with the Missions book will be the formerly mentioned remaining sculpts of Legion of the Damned. We're getting 11 in January, and I see about 5 more coming with this book.

szlachcic
16-12-2009, 16:59
Blood Angels as the new Space Marine models to be released with the 30-mission scenario book does not make a great deal of sense to me. I believe that Blood Angels -will- come out as a separate release at some point after this book, along with a Codex of their own. I just don't see two new books released simultaneously, nor do I see Blood Angel models released without their Codex to support them.

This leads me to believe that the new Marines to be released with the Missions book will be the formerly mentioned remaining sculpts of Legion of the Damned. We're getting 11 in January, and I see about 5 more coming with this book.

The second part of the Legion of the Damned release could come out with Battle Missions, but it could also come out in February along with Beastmen. No one is saying that the Blood Angel codex is coming out with the Battle Missions book. It was said that the Blood Angel codex/release would be the month after Battle Missions and that the Marine releases for Battle Missions may or may not tie into the BA release.

For example Scryer, who is a VERY reliable source, said he could see GW releasing a re-cut Dreadnought kit (most likely with Furioso and all gun options) being released alongside Battle Missions. While the kit isn't exactly a Blood Angels release it would set the stage as we would then have a kit that could be used for any Space Marine chapter, but allows us BA players to make a plastic Furioso if we wish. So, you see we weren't saying they were connected, just that if such a kit was released it would create a nice transition into the following month's release.

Motley
16-12-2009, 18:20
MMMMMMM harry already said that the other half of the story is NOT the thunderhawk.......:cries:

Kloud13
16-12-2009, 19:01
Just pure speculation, and I'm sure I didn't spell that word right, but.

Would it be possible they might release some sort of Supplement to the Marine Codex. And what I'm thinking is a book full of Special IC's from all the founding chapters who perhaps swap out combat tactics for some other crazy rule. or maybe even allow a player to mess with the FoC, or even just give certain units a special USR or whatever.

I'm kinda thinkin maybe something similar to the old "Index Astartes" books from 3rd edition. except all in one book.

All of us Marine players are moaning about how Vanilla Marines are, and rightly so. But a supplement like the old "Index Astartes books" would allow use to put some chocolate syrup, or strawberry syrup, or caramel, or maybe even justa few sprinkles on top. I like Vanilla, but without the toppings that were taken away in 4th, Vanilla is rather plain. (traits sucked)

szlachcic
16-12-2009, 19:34
Just pure speculation, and I'm sure I didn't spell that word right, but.

Would it be possible they might release some sort of Supplement to the Marine Codex. And what I'm thinking is a book full of Special IC's from all the founding chapters who perhaps swap out combat tactics for some other crazy rule. or maybe even allow a player to mess with the FoC, or even just give certain units a special USR or whatever.

I'm kinda thinkin maybe something similar to the old "Index Astartes" books from 3rd edition. except all in one book.

All of us Marine players are moaning about how Vanilla Marines are, and rightly so. But a supplement like the old "Index Astartes books" would allow use to put some chocolate syrup, or strawberry syrup, or caramel, or maybe even justa few sprinkles on top. I like Vanilla, but without the toppings that were taken away in 4th, Vanilla is rather plain. (traits sucked)

Highly doubtful, but on the bright side as a Vanilla Marine player you know you only have to wait until the next edition for an update while the rest of us have no idea when we will if ever.

prose.
16-12-2009, 20:11
Just pure speculation, and I'm sure I didn't spell that word right, but.

Would it be possible they might release some sort of Supplement to the Marine Codex. And what I'm thinking is a book full of Special IC's from all the founding chapters who perhaps swap out combat tactics for some other crazy rule. or maybe even allow a player to mess with the FoC, or even just give certain units a special USR or whatever.

I'm kinda thinkin maybe something similar to the old "Index Astartes" books from 3rd edition. except all in one book.

All of us Marine players are moaning about how Vanilla Marines are, and rightly so. But a supplement like the old "Index Astartes books" would allow use to put some chocolate syrup, or strawberry syrup, or caramel, or maybe even justa few sprinkles on top. I like Vanilla, but without the toppings that were taken away in 4th, Vanilla is rather plain. (traits sucked)

Nah that would be a "good idea" and GW seem to be completely allergic to those.

Besides the developers have stated many times that they want all armies to only need a single book to play, which is a nice idea in theory and one I expect they will stick to.

The Black Templars rumour seems to make the most sense as once Blood Angels are done they'll be the oldest marine codex. Assuming it's them I wonder how (or if) the space fleet theme will be represented in their rules.

Perhaps special tweaks to their drop pod reserve rolls or maybe more characters allowed to call in lance strikes?

Spectral Dragon
16-12-2009, 20:45
Just pure speculation, and I'm sure I didn't spell that word right, but.

Would it be possible they might release some sort of Supplement to the Marine Codex. And what I'm thinking is a book full of Special IC's from all the founding chapters who perhaps swap out combat tactics for some other crazy rule. or maybe even allow a player to mess with the FoC, or even just give certain units a special USR or whatever.

I'm kinda thinkin maybe something similar to the old "Index Astartes" books from 3rd edition. except all in one book.

All of us Marine players are moaning about how Vanilla Marines are, and rightly so. But a supplement like the old "Index Astartes books" would allow use to put some chocolate syrup, or strawberry syrup, or caramel, or maybe even justa few sprinkles on top. I like Vanilla, but without the toppings that were taken away in 4th, Vanilla is rather plain. (traits sucked)

You spelled it correctly.

This idea would make me want to field something besides space wolves. I am sure we would see something besides smurfs as well.

Kloud13
16-12-2009, 20:56
You spelled it correctly.

This idea would make me want to field something besides space wolves. I am sure we would see something besides smurfs as well.

yeah I play Iron Hands.

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
16-12-2009, 23:02
Besides the developers have stated many times that they want all armies to only need a single book to play, which is a nice idea in theory and one I expect they will stick to.


They probably will. Which means Blood Angels will (if they ever do) get a book that is a ~95% copy of Codex Space Marines (that most people own anyways) plus Death Company, special characters and two slightly different standard Marine vehicles (Baal Pred and their Dreads) for the same price? :wtf:

If they (hopefully) give the Blood Angels a stand-alone Codex, I certainly hope the style they are going to be played means they are VERY different to other CC oriented chapters. Blood Angels follow the Codex Astartes, so there is no way their units will differ much from "vanilla" Marines.

TBH, Death Company alone would not draw much of my attention to prefer the BA over regular chapters, if I would start a new army. And IMO the Death Company is the only significant difference that Blood Angels have compared to regular Space Marines at this time. Sure, you get Assault Squads for troops but that's not too overwhelming, is it?

Now if they would get an army-wide special rule, say like "furious charge" (just as example, GW could also come up with something new) - well, that would certainly do my imagination of blood-crazy assaulting Marines do some justice.

The Dude
16-12-2009, 23:13
They probably will. Which means Blood Angels will (if they ever do) get a book that is a ~95% copy of Codex Space Marines (that most people own anyways) plus Death Company, special characters and two slightly different standard Marine vehicles (Baal Pred and their Dreads) for the same price? :wtf:

That's all they are though. All they need is the following:

Special Characters
Unique Psychic Powers
Death Company
Honour Guard
Veteran Assault Squads
Baal Preadators and Furioso Dreads

These things alone will make them play RADICALLY differently to standard Marines.

Special Characters can allow FOC changes (Dante taking Assault Squads as Troops) or give special Buffs (Corbulo giving FC).

Psychic powers can be tailored to Assault (Quickening, other Squad Buffers)

Death Company are cool, and if not forced on players, can be an interesting unit (give them weapon options)

Vet Assault Squads will need a special rule better than Vanguard to make them unique (DSing into combat would be good :evilgrin:)

What Blood Angels DON'T need is army wide Furious Charge or Fleet. I could see them gitting a situational Consolidate into Combat, but that would probably raise issues. Personally, I think they'd be fine with ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.

Azazyll
16-12-2009, 23:14
Now if they would get an army-wide special rule, say like "furious charge" (just as example, GW could also come up with something new) - well, that would certainly do my imagination of blood-crazy assaulting Marines do some justice.

That would rock my socks.

I hope that BA do get something to differentiate them from regular marines - at the very least, I would love to see Sanguinary High Priest as an HQ option. While I've been playing since the old Angels of Death Codex for 2nd ed, I for one have always hoped that BA would be re-flavored away from the Codex Astartes. Something along the lines of what's been done with Dark Angels would be greatly appreciated. We don't have to go crazy like the wolves or black templars, just something a bit less vanilla.

Also, being able to use those sweet legion of the damned minis would be awesome.

Still, I would be more than happy with furious charge as an army wide special rule :evilgrin:

edit: I like the Dude's idea too. Still, I miss the days when blood angels all had the chance of going nuts. Maybe a leadership test or they have both rage and furious charge each turn. Definitely have to get rid of the mandatory death company though.

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
16-12-2009, 23:24
Good point, Dude. Tailoring some special rules to characters wouldn't be that bad and indeed would make a difference. I never saw it from that perspective.

Vet Assault squads definitely need a very different rule to make them significantly other than Vanguard. Most BA images show some Assault Marines crushing their enemies under their feet while fearless jumping right into them. It would be cool to have the terror they cause in most enemies doing so being represented by some special rule.

Sinisterfence
17-12-2009, 00:15
just to throw in some rumours... I was talking to my local manager and another member of staff today saying I had intended to not spend a penny on models until the BA were released, but the 'Nids were really tempting me. The member of staff asked what the rumour mill said (I talk to him about rumours whenever I go in) and he said he hadn't heard anything about Blood Angels, although he'd heard something about Black Templars coming out later.. this guy usually confirms what I say the word is here, or shoots down what eventually turns out to be incorrect (usually only rules) and this is the first time he's outright said anything about a codex being wrong.

Azzy
17-12-2009, 01:45
Blood Angels have been all but confirmed. Reliable sources have strongly hinted that they're in the queue.

mullinstron
17-12-2009, 01:53
I think they pretty much out and out said they were next year.

~m

The Dude
17-12-2009, 03:59
I think Sinisterfence was saying the Staffer said he had no information on BA, but that he knew Templars would be later next year.

What I mean is I think he wasn't claiming BA weren't coming, just that he had no further info than that on them.

MachineSlave
17-12-2009, 09:59
Just saw a post on BoLS and somebody started a post back in Oct in which he mentioned that they will get a new Psychic power that give the Librarian attacks equal to the number of models in base contact with him. In some instances that could be better than Quicken! And who do we have to pay to get a pic of the upgrade sprue? :)

VERITAS/AEQUITAS
17-12-2009, 10:27
And did he say where he got this information from?

Koris
17-12-2009, 11:16
What Blood Angels DON'T need is army wide Furious Charge or Fleet. I could see them gitting a situational Consolidate into Combat, but that would probably raise issues. Personally, I think they'd be fine with ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.


Dude, seriously the acronyms have got to go, just type it all out.
What is ATSKNF??


Also I tend to agree about army wide Furious Charge and Fleet, they would be out of character with the Blood Angels, who aren't really that much of an assault army. They are a codex Chapter who have a few guys go a little wibbly sometimes.

MajorWesJanson
17-12-2009, 12:03
Dude, seriously the acronyms have got to go, just type it all out.
What is ATSKNF??


Also I tend to agree about army wide Furious Charge and Fleet, they would be out of character with the Blood Angels, who aren't really that much of an assault army. They are a codex Chapter who have a few guys go a little wibbly sometimes.

And they shall know no fear, the Marine special rule that lets them regroup under half and not die if they are assaulted when falling back.

Azzy
17-12-2009, 12:36
Dude, seriously the acronyms have got to go, just type it all out.

Dude, you're new here. You're have to adapt to the community here rather than expect the community to adapt to you.

We use acronyms for good reason. Some of the game terms ("And They Shall Know No Fear") are a little cumbersome and annoying to type every time you want to bring it up. Most of the acronyms used here are very common terms and many are fairly self-explanatory if you've had moderate experience with the game. If you don't understand what an acronym is for, just ask (without the rudeness), and people will be happy to explain.

TheHarrower
17-12-2009, 14:09
Also I tend to agree about army wide Furious Charge and Fleet, they would be out of character with the Blood Angels, who aren't really that much of an assault army. They are a codex Chapter who have a few guys go a little wibbly sometimes.

Considering we had furious charge in earlier editions and something akin to fleet, I don't see how they are out of character. Personally, I'd rather not see furious charge as army wide, but fleet would be cool.

Black Hand
17-12-2009, 16:47
That's all they are though. All they need is the following:

Special Characters
Unique Psychic Powers
Death Company
Honour Guard
Veteran Assault Squads
Baal Preadators and Furioso Dreads

These things alone will make them play RADICALLY differently to standard Marines.


You forgot SHP. But you are correct.



Special Characters can allow FOC changes (Dante taking Assault Squads as Troops) or give special Buffs (Corbulo giving FC).


This I agree with (aside from the FC part). It worked for Deathwing and Ravenwing armies and would definitely work here as well. It would stop all complaining about Assault squads possibly being Troop choices by default.



Psychic powers can be tailored to Assault (Quickening, other Squad Buffers)


I just hope we get more choices for powers though.



Death Company are cool, and if not forced on players, can be an interesting unit (give them weapon options)


They aren't forced upon the player (.pdf anyways.) They are generated free up to 10 models. If you want to use them then go for it, if not then don't. Which is why they put "may include" instead of must include in the rules for DC. The previous BA codex forced the DC on you and cost you models from your units in the process. I really hope that doesn't come back.



Vet Assault Squads will need a special rule better than Vanguard to make them unique (DSing into combat would be good :evilgrin:)


I like the way you think. :evilgrin:



What Blood Angels DON'T need is army wide Furious Charge or Fleet. I could see them gitting a situational Consolidate into Combat, but that would probably raise issues. Personally, I think they'd be fine with ATSKNF and Combat Tactics.


Furious charge is one of the rules that complements the BA ability to excel in CC. Getting rid of that isn't an option imo. Fleet is best left to the Eldar and Nids. The only thing close to that is Turbo Boosting and that's only for bikes. Best to leave that to the White Scars and Ravenwing. Situational consolidation (assuming you mean something like Counter Attack) only seems relevant to the Space Puppies and BT but it could work if attached to certain units. Honor Gaurd or VAS maybe?

Motley
17-12-2009, 17:30
Well ...the first army with furious charge was the blood angels back in the beginning of the 3rd edtion, actually was a rule only the blood angels have at that point (back in second edition that type of rule didn't exist), so the rule was created for the blood angels and later translate to other army, like chaos and vanilla space marines.
When they took that out with the pdf was kind of a weird situation because they where the original one of this rule....;)

i remember having the space marines codex, chaos codex, and blood angels codex for the 3rd editon back on the day ...actually if i dont remenber bad chaos came after blood angels and they didnt have anything like that not even the berserkers.... so....

it is clear that was a pain all the random movement that the development team give the army to counteract the furious charge( that actually didnt even have that name at that time)because affects the heavy support options of the army... but i never complaint because the army was really effective.

TheHarrower
17-12-2009, 19:04
They aren't forced upon the player (.pdf anyways.) They are generated free up to 10 models. If you want to use them then go for it, if not then don't. Which is why they put "may include" instead of must include in the rules for DC.

You're not required to take them, but you are paying for them. So while you don't have to add them to your list, you might as well because you are losing a lot of points if you don't. This, coupled with the outdated equipment options for the BA makes DC necessary if you ask me.

MajorWesJanson
17-12-2009, 19:33
It would be interesting to see sort of a reverse Wolfguard type scenario. One model per unit can be converted to a DC for X points, they leave and join other DC models to form a single Death Company unit at deployment. Once they become DC, they have various weapon options, like Veterans or Wolfguard do.

They would become an option, as you would pay for them if you choose them. It would also be fluffier as DC are those who succumb to the Black Rage and are pulled out of their squads.

TheHarrower
17-12-2009, 21:52
It would be interesting to see sort of a reverse Wolfguard type scenario. One model per unit can be converted to a DC for X points, they leave and join other DC models to form a single Death Company unit at deployment.

Fluff wise its kinda neat, but rules wise it sounds like a pain. I would just prefer DC be a 0-1 retinue choice for a Chaplain between 5-10 models and you pay per model.

The Dude
17-12-2009, 22:48
Dude, seriously the acronyms have got to go, just type it all out.

Koris, I don't use Acronyms without good reason. Most of the time when I do, I have already spelled out the full term in my post. ATSKNF, however, is a very long term, and conveniently one that cannot possibly be confused when displayed as an acronym ;)

I always try to be as clear as possible (and expect the same of others). I'm sorry I failed on this occasion :).


You forgot SHP.

No I didn't. There is (or should be) only one Sanguinary High Priest (SHP), and that is Corbulo, who fits under the heading of Special Characters ;)


They aren't forced upon the player (.pdf anyways.) They are generated free up to 10 models. If you want to use them then go for it, if not then don't. Which is why they put "may include" instead of must include in the rules for DC. The previous BA codex forced the DC on you and cost you models from your units in the process. I really hope that doesn't come back.

They most certainly are not generated free. If they were, I'd have even more of an issue with them. Their points cost is included in the base cost of every squad that "generates" them. This is my major issue.


Furious charge is one of the rules that complements the BA ability to excel in CC. Getting rid of that isn't an option imo. Fleet is best left to the Eldar and Nids. The only thing close to that is Turbo Boosting and that's only for bikes. Best to leave that to the White Scars and Ravenwing. Situational consolidation (assuming you mean something like Counter Attack) only seems relevant to the Space Puppies and BT but it could work if attached to certain units. Honor Gaurd or VAS maybe?

Furious Charge is a good rule for SOME units, eg Death Company and possibly Vet Assault Squads/Honour Guard. It shouldn't be applied across the board. Blood Angels fight their vicious impulse, not embrace it. I would personally reserve its use as an effect of the Red Grail and on Death Company.

By situational consolidation into combat, I meant using the Consolidation move after close combat to engage a new unit and count as charging. I could see this being applied in certain situations to represent the Blood Angels' bloodlust, but it could be VERY powerful, so it would be safer to not include it.

MajorWesJanson
17-12-2009, 22:59
Fluff wise its kinda neat, but rules wise it sounds like a pain. I would just prefer DC be a 0-1 retinue choice for a Chaplain between 5-10 models and you pay per model.

Not really. You just upgrade up to one model per squad into a DC member with whatever wargear, the price is added to the squad he belongs to. When you start the game, you take all the DC upgraded units out of the squads they are in and create a new unit made up of them, a unit that can not hold objectives and only gives up a KP if they stay alive at the end.

The Dude
17-12-2009, 23:20
Sorry missed this:


It would be interesting to see sort of a reverse Wolfguard type scenario. One model per unit can be converted to a DC for X points, they leave and join other DC models to form a single Death Company unit at deployment. Once they become DC, they have various weapon options, like Veterans or Wolfguard do.

They would become an option, as you would pay for them if you choose them. It would also be fluffier as DC are those who succumb to the Black Rage and are pulled out of their squads.

If they've got enough time to give them a respray and form them into a unit, they've got enough time to reform the other units into Codex Adherant squads.

I don't like the idea of taking from the squad to get Death Company.

Death Company are collected from the entire force and deployed where they are needed. There will be places on the battlefield (40K sized arenas) where there are none, and places where there are a high number. To me this is only accurately represented by a unit that is purchased the same way as everything else.

That said, I could well see them doing it this way. It's certainly not the worst solution.

Angeloftheblood
18-12-2009, 06:45
Everyone saying FC doesn't make sense is soooo wrong imo

if space wolfs get acute senses AND counter attack I think blood angels should get furious charge and feel no pain for there first round of combat to show them letting the black rage slip in combat which happens to them all the time

The Dude
18-12-2009, 06:55
Everyone saying FC doesn't make sense is soooo wrong imo

if space wolfs get acute senses AND counter attack I think blood angels should get furious charge and feel no pain for there first round of combat to show them letting the black rage slip in combat which happens to them all the time

Space wolves get Counter Attack and Acute Senses because as a non-Codex Chapter they don't get Combat Tactics, which is a VERY useful skill. Blood Angels should retain Combat Tactics, or possibly replace it with something that allows them to consolidate in to another combat, or allow them to re-roll sweeping advances. These would illustrate a bloodthirstiness in combat without making them ALL super great at it.

Griffindale
18-12-2009, 08:20
I wonder exactly what their niche as a chapter is going to be. Blood Angels aren't so glaringly obvious as say the White Scars or Iron Warriors are. I suspect they're going to be like a close range firefight army with heavy assault elements to polish off the job.