PDA

View Full Version : Opinions on apocolypse chease



god of smite
23-11-2009, 18:52
Ok so last night had an apoc game six players 3000 per player. would like to know how the comunity feels about this. Basicly one player took an inqiusiter with two mystics wated for deep striking terminators ( knew they were coming) used the free shot ability ON A BANE BLADE, and proseeded to wipe about fifteen termies before they had a chance. I know legaly there is nothing wrong with this but it seemed a little cheesy. Normally we have war summits before the game to discuss anything that might throw the balance and then put it to a vote. but this player diddent feel that it was necacery because it was a LEGAL move any wase what are your opinins on such a move.

x-esiv-4c
23-11-2009, 18:57
Welcome to Apocalypse.

SPYDER68
23-11-2009, 18:58
Welcome to Apocalypse.

/agree


Apoc is what your group makes of it, Easy to cheese.. Easy to ruin.

Daniel36
23-11-2009, 18:58
Don't play Apocalypse with people that don't know how to run a thematic battle that focuses on the storyline and the flow of the battle, instead of the outcome.

Simple really...

Bunnahabhain
23-11-2009, 19:04
40k suffers from too much I-go-You-go. Things that interrupt the turn sequence like this are necessary, and a good thing.

Would it have been any better if it hadn't been a Baneblade, but a squadron of 3 Leman Russ Demolishers/Executioners with plasma sponsons? Aside from being about 100pts more, as not being insaney underpriced, of course.

Besides, Deep striking into the heart of an enemy army should be a very dangerous thing to do. Deep striking that close to an Inquisitor lord and Baneblade is just insane...

god of smite
23-11-2009, 19:12
Yes I know this is about our tenth game of apoc we are no rookies. and the player that did this was on my side, I just felt it was a little one sided/ unbalnced/ ungentlman like thing to pull. We were already winning the game the termie assult was kind of a last ditch effort on there part. and this move kinda ended the game for the other side. Im just saying I think my ally should have brought this up during the pre game war summit

Hypaspist
23-11-2009, 19:12
When playing apocalypse, *Especially* when any Super Heavies are brought to the party you need to get used to taking off infantry by the shovel-load.

Fact.

The Orange
23-11-2009, 19:12
this player diddent feel that it was necacery because it was a LEGAL move any wase what are your opinins on such a move.

Well there's the problem, in Apoc never just assume anything is balanced and don't take the word of the guy using it against you either. With Apoc. games you as a GROUP make the decisions weather you think it's balanced AND weather you think it'll ruin the game. Here's a simple test, would you be willing to spend all that time and effort playing another Apoc. game if he ran the same dirty trick? If you and your friends say no then I'd say it needs to be kicked weather it's legal or not. Bottom line is if it ruins the game don't let it into Apoc. games, otherwise the whole group will want to just drop playing Apoc. games in favor of regular games, and no one wins in that scenario.

Abbo
23-11-2009, 19:23
lol wut?

Just read that rule, free baneblade shots??? He's lucky there wasn't a titan there instead :D

god of smite
23-11-2009, 19:30
Thats kind the problem there were for differt groups of termies and the bane blade had double sponsons. if it was a sqaudren of tanks all the fire power would have been against one squad, but between the big bane blade cannon plate and the multiple targeting it was total devistation, I already think this should have been discused with the group and not held as a secret, I think it should have been agreed the rule would not apply to super heavys

Bunnahabhain
23-11-2009, 19:49
IIRC, any unit deep striking within X" of the Inquisitor can be shot at. If you had multiple units of terminators, then each unit can be shot at by the baneblade, tank squadron, whatever...

However, the DH lord only allows you to shoot at the DSing unit, doesn't matter if the unit shooting is capable of split targetting, it is only allowed to shoot at the DSing unit the DH lord has ''pointed out''


ie If all the units of terminators came down close enough to the DH lord, they can each take a full round of fire from the Baneblade. Any that don't come down close enough to the DH lord cannot be targeted by any shooting from the Baneblade etc, barring scattering blasts etc.

As I said above, deep striking into the middle of an army should be dangerous.

KingDeath
23-11-2009, 20:03
Buy a Vindicare, get rid of at least one of the mystics ->profit.
Deep striking Termies can spell death for a vehicle and imo your opponent
was quite smart to use his Inquisitor+ retinue in such a way.

Ozendorph
23-11-2009, 21:08
I really dislike cheeseball tactics and rules-bending, but I don't think this qualifies as either, tbh. As others have pointed out, you only have to kill a mystic to diffuse the situation, and DSing so close to an Inquisitor w/ mystics isn't exactly sane.

Also (as Bunna pointed out) only the DSing unit can be shot at. It's not as though the Baneblade could go on to smash up the rest of your army with its "free" shot.

The Orange
23-11-2009, 21:21
Well there's also the fact that this guy knew the termi's were coming, and the fact that he didn't bring it up in the pre-game discussion tells me he was holding it an ace in the sleeve rather then his excuse of "It wasn't worth bringing up". I guess it can be called a one shot tactic as now you and your opponents know about it now. But still if someone's ruining the game for everyone else (even his allies) I'd be inclined to threaten to kick him out of further games if he didn't straighten up, legal or not. I'd rather lose one gaming buddy then have everyone drop the game in frustration.

cuda1179
23-11-2009, 21:31
I once had my Warlord Titan extremely crippled by a handful of IG veteran squads deepstriking in with meltaguns (old IG codex). Ever since those 250 points of IG took out 2,500 points of titan I have been placing Mystics thoughout my lines. I did get it to work wonders once when shot down a unit of Vet. Marines and their drop pod using a reaver titan. :evilgrin:

gwarsh41
23-11-2009, 22:08
Apoc gets out of hand sometimes. I think GW should sell the Infantry shovel for apoc games so you can scoop your casualties off the table in a timely manner.

Ozendorph
23-11-2009, 22:17
Well there's also the fact that this guy knew the termi's were coming, and the fact that he didn't bring it up in the pre-game discussion tells me he was holding it an ace in the sleeve rather then his excuse of "It wasn't worth bringing up". I guess it can be called a one shot tactic as now you and your opponents know about it now. But still if someone's ruining the game for everyone else (even his allies) I'd be inclined to threaten to kick him out of further games if he didn't straighten up, legal or not. I'd rather lose one gaming buddy then have everyone drop the game in frustration.

I understand what you're saying, but what if the situation had worked out differently and the DSing termies went on a rampage? Would that somehow be different? It's not as though the guy with the Inquisitor thought up some amazing "gray area" combo...he just followed the rules for his guy. I could see making a house rule (I guess) to prevent him from using his perfectly legal strategy, but threatening to kick the guy out of further games if he doesn't "straighten up"? Seems silly to me.

LonelyPath
23-11-2009, 22:18
Personally I don't see any problem with the player using his Inquisitor in such a way, it's perfectly legal and using the baneblade is just a clever approach. I've done the same with a Stormlord and a Shadowsword and never had a single complaint. Heck, I used my free shot to lob a vortex grenade that landed on trrget and wiped out a chaos terminator lord and his bodyguard of termies off the table and just got a chuckle in response (which later turned into howling laughter when in later turns it managed to take out 2 baneblades on my own side thanks to unlucky scatter dice).

The gamer in question may not have thought it worth mentioning before the battle, as he might not have considered it happening, but when the event arose he played it out as he thought best to cause the most damage, which he should do. Given the choice between a Baneblade or a squad of SM I know which I'd choose to take that shot.

But yes, there are easy ways to defeat this problem in the guise of blast weapons, Vindicare assassins and units to tie the Inquisitor up in other ways. Keep him busy and then sneak in your prized DS units, it works wonders and all have a great chance of taking out those pesky mystics :)

Chem-Dog
23-11-2009, 23:10
Ok so last night had an apoc game six players 3000 per player. would like to know how the comunity feels about this. Basicly one player took an inqiusiter with two mystics wated for deep striking terminators ( knew they were coming) used the free shot ability ON A BANE BLADE, and proseeded to wipe about fifteen termies before they had a chance. I know legaly there is nothing wrong with this but it seemed a little cheesy. Normally we have war summits before the game to discuss anything that might throw the balance and then put it to a vote. but this player diddent feel that it was necacery because it was a LEGAL move any wase what are your opinins on such a move.

Rule 1 of Appocalypse: Play for fun.
Rule 2 of Appocalypse: Use a GM.
Rule 3 of Appocalypse: Plan ahead.

Rule 2 and 3 assume that at least 1 person is going to ignore rule 1.

If you're GMing an appocalypse game do not be afraid to-
A) Discuss each player's contribution with them privately, if you have a narrative and special rules planned you may be able to encourage the player to theme their force accordingly, leaking special information to certain players can be a good way of encouraging a level of co-opperation.

B) Limit Codexes that can be used and as far as you can, limit alliances to ones that make sense and are at least vaguely fluff compatible, Chaos/Necron Alliances are less likely than Tau/Imperium ones, for example.

C) Ban, modify and/or pre-pick Assets, think of them as suggestions rather than hard set rules, limit certain Assets to use by by certain types of unit (Flank March restricted to Fast Vehicles/Bikes/Jetbikes/Cavalry for example).
Vet any potential formations, they can bring some nasty surprises with them.

D) Limit the number of Superheavies and Gargantuan Creatures, they can tend to tilt a game significantly one way or another, if reluctant to limit the inclusion of these units be prepared to offer a crutch to a side that seems to be outgunned in the SH department.

E) Break/modify the rules to make the game play better, if a player removes casualties from the front of his unit to strand a Vanguard squad making it's Heroic Intervention, tell them the Vanguard will make it in regardless, Apocalypse is not the place for rules lawyers and tournament play.

I could go on....

The best way to sort these things out is to get together as a group and discuss all the sick combos you can possibly bring to bare then legislate against the worst of them ;)

DuskRaider
23-11-2009, 23:33
Well there's also the fact that this guy knew the termi's were coming, and the fact that he didn't bring it up in the pre-game discussion tells me he was holding it an ace in the sleeve rather then his excuse of "It wasn't worth bringing up". I guess it can be called a one shot tactic as now you and your opponents know about it now. But still if someone's ruining the game for everyone else (even his allies) I'd be inclined to threaten to kick him out of further games if he didn't straighten up, legal or not. I'd rather lose one gaming buddy then have everyone drop the game in frustration.

And why should one give away their every tactic? It's like playing chess, but telling your opponent what you're planning on doing in the next round. This guy had a viable strategy and used it, the player with the Terminators should have thought ahead. He didn't, he lost his Terminators, QQ.

This isn't cheese, this is Apocalypse. If I had the option to do this, I'd do it too. Perhaps people just don't get the idea or tactics or what Apocalypse is about, but if he banked everything on 15 Terminators in an Apocalypse game, he was the one who should be slapped on the wrist.

Arakanis
23-11-2009, 23:37
why in the world would you Deep Strike that close to a Baneblade or an Inquisitor? Sounds like somebody wanted to just throw away their terminator squads ;)

EDIT: I do grow SO weary of people crying cheese because they did something stupid and it cost them a game. QQ more, noobs.

TGaunt
23-11-2009, 23:53
many people have stated opinions and dissagree while agreeing on a more global aspect:

what is right for you and your group is theirs to decide. this decission cannot be made for you.

rules wise it is perfectly legal and in no ways should be seen as "bending rules". the mystics have one rule and this one rule was used as it was written and intended. Yes, back when the rules were written the biggest you could get lobbed on you was a demolisher shell and 2 plasmacannons but the final difference is small. your termies deepstriking into your oponents perfectly set trap are dead in most circumstances.

before you go enraged about your oponents tactic you should think a moment what if the situation was reversed? You either had no clue what to do with this terminators or a sinister plan with them (like shooting something up! if within that close to a baneblade I assume you wanted to kill it before your poor oponent could react, bad boy you!).

if you decide on banning mystics working with superheavies you will prolly run into a tank squadron next time. If you ban mystics compeltely you might find yourself getting the favour returned and deepstriking terminators banned because they are themselfes deemed to cheesy. yeah its not like a full coverage of mystic is something anyone invests into so even from around the world I know that you were deepstriking into a core location of your oponents battleplan.


one final testimony:
apocalypse is not a game designed for people who only just started the game. it is made for veterans and so you should take your time (days in advance) to read trough the books for every army you will field and face on the battlefield so you know their special rules. if you are smart enough to play apocalypse you would ahve known possible counters to this (simple not deepstriking next to the inquisitor or killing the mystics is a start) if you had know the deamonhunter book.
playing set scenarios with a limited set of races cuts down the books you ahve to read enourmously (even the "big" imperium vs chaos cuts it down to half, IG, CSM, CD, DH, WH, SM and chapter books). If you play the meatgrinder that is FFA-apocalypse, well then it's your own fault and you have to know all books and their special rules. too much to ask from a beginner but not from a veteran, playing apoc.

The Orange
24-11-2009, 00:54
And why should one give away their every tactic?
They had a pre-game discussion to make sure things were on the level, and this player decided not to share b/c he thought no one would have a problem. YET even his ally didn't like it when he pulled it out on everyone. Not to mention for some reason he already had knowledge of what his opponent was gonna play so secrecy was out the door from the get go.


Perhaps people just don't get the idea or tactics or what Apocalypse is about,
Pretty sure the Apoc. book said they were more about having fun scenic games because the game's nearly impossible to properly balance. If they wanted fair competition I'm sure they would have stuck to regular 40k.


but if he banked everything on 15 Terminators in an Apocalypse game, he was the one who should be slapped on the wrist. As said they already had the game in the bag when he pulled the stunt. Sportsmenship I would think would be an important thing for keeping people interested in continuing to play Apoc. games. It was a good ace up the sleeve and should make a hell of a good story, maybe the opponents thought so too, but they could just as easily get turned off from further games of Apoc. Would you really want to play an Apoc. game against someone who already knew what you were bringing and designed their list around yours? Ultimately its up to that group of players to decide for themselves because that's what your supposed to do with Apoc. games, it's up to the gamers to make sure there's balance, you can't take it all for face value because there's plenty of ways to apply the rules to break the game and ruin it for everyone else.

Ozendorph
24-11-2009, 01:02
"when he pulled it out on everyone"

"when he pulled the stunt"

It's what the Mystic does. It's not a secret trick the dude came up with...it's not "my units are intertwined so they get a cover save from each other!"...it's the basic (and ONLY) thing Mystics do, lol. What was the player supposed to do in that situation?

Arakanis
24-11-2009, 01:10
"when he pulled it out on everyone"

"when he pulled the stunt"

It's what the Mystic does. It's not a secret trick the dude came up with...it's not "my units are intertwined so they get a cover save from each other!"...it's the basic (and ONLY) thing Mystics do, lol. What was the player supposed to do in that situation?

Clearly he was supposed to let the Wookie win.

Raven1
24-11-2009, 01:12
Its not only perfectly legal its pretty much the point. Not only that, but it's legal by the codex. Its not like he had an inquisitor in a chaos or dark elder army. You can take an inquisitor in an Imperial army, and the bane blade is an imperial tank. heck I think it's a great a idea if you know people will be deep striking on you. Also, why on earth would anyone deep strike that close to both an inquisitor with two mystics and a bane blade. A smart general would have avoided the situation and minimized the problem by laying fire power on the inquisitor from turn one to take out at least on mystic and then he could even deep strike the termi's next to the bane blade with out issue. I fail to see a problem.

Thud
24-11-2009, 01:27
If you made the brilliant move of deepstriking Terminators next to an Inquisitor with Mystics and a Baneblade, then, well, frankly, you had it coming.

Toe Cutter
24-11-2009, 01:28
Surely what actually happened was funnier than what those 15 terminators could have done if they'd been able to get away with a truly hair brained attempt at a counter assault no?

These are 15 of the most deadly anti heroes in the 40k universe. They've seen it all. They could have been around to witness the emperor walking among his subjects. What they don't know about warfare isn't worth knowing.

Yet this one day they decide to deep strike down right next to a common or garden mystic and his pet bane blade.

So against all of the odds Dave (who never really wanted to go to mystic school in the first place and would much rather have become a brickie but his mum insisted he develop his 'creative side') gets to unleash his faithful stead of war (Percy) upon the vile chaos scum and 15 of Abaddons 'go to' men are reduced to a red smear of squidgy bits and shrapnel spread out over most of the forward trenches in less time than it takes to tell about it.

Truly the chaos gods are capricious....

Apocalypse is all about stupidly high casualty rates - this is a fine example of what apocalypse should be about to my mind.

Lyonator
24-11-2009, 01:29
I'd be inclined to threaten to kick him out of further games if he didn't straighten up, legal or not. I'd rather lose one gaming buddy then have everyone drop the game in frustration.

Seriously?
It's a perfectly legal move, a move that is not at all uncommon in IG armies these days, and it involved a single squad of Terminators - against the backdrop of an Apoc game. Kicking him out of future games?
What's next, ban that dude who brought tanks, because his opponent didn't think about deploying in the open across the board from the guns?
Punishing players for totally kosher moves is... well, childish and more than a little whiny.

Worst case, nobody but that one guy who doesn't know what mystics do has any excuse to be frustrated, unless they decided to then try their luck at Deep striking near him... in which case they're too dumb to warrant missing them if they leave.

Even if you do have some warped idea of 'battlefield honor,' what do you expect the guy to do? That scenario is exactly what the player had in mind when he added those mystics to the retinue, and exactly the sort of thing GW had in mind when they added that function to mystics:
make it suicidal to try and deep strike near that scary dude with the -=I=- badge

Some of what is being said in this thread makes me at once sad that it would occur to someone to complain about it, and glad that those who are aren't anywhere near me.

Agnar the Howler
24-11-2009, 01:36
To be honest, it was a pretty unkind thing to do. Instead of giving them a small chance in a game of fun, their final assault ended in some guy saying "Oh yeah, and I can do this by the way." Whilst legal and everything, warhammer is supposed to be fun, it's not fun when you take what could've been a fun and active end to a game and end it in such an anti-climactic way. He'd already won, but decided he'd go and rub salt in the wound by p***ing on the final attempt at even scraping something back.

Thud
24-11-2009, 01:37
What's next, ban that dude who brought tanks, because his opponent didn't think about deploying in the open across the board from the guns?
Punishing players for totally kosher moves is... well, childish and more than a little whiny.

Or, if one forgets one's Terminators at home one could simply ban the opponent from future games, because it is clearly his fault, the under-handed bastard! :eyebrows:

Arakanis
24-11-2009, 02:04
To be honest, it was a pretty unkind thing to do. Instead of giving them a small chance in a game of fun, their final assault ended in some guy saying "Oh yeah, and I can do this by the way." Whilst legal and everything, warhammer is supposed to be fun, it's not fun when you take what could've been a fun and active end to a game and end it in such an anti-climactic way. He'd already won, but decided he'd go and rub salt in the wound by p***ing on the final attempt at even scraping something back.

Oh, so if I assault a Titan with Guardians they should just ban Titans because it's unfair to people who play poorly? Right.

Nezalhualixtlan
24-11-2009, 02:14
I think there's nothing wrong with what happened. It's legal by the books, but moreover it was a boneheaded move by the guy deepstriking the Terminators into a position where they'd be gibbed by a mystic guided baneblade.

Realize it was a mistake on the guy that lost the units, and use it to learn not to do that again. It's a viable, and fair tactic considering the other rules combinations any player could really bring to the table.

Mannimarco
24-11-2009, 02:26
as the saying goes: alls fair in love and apocalypse

its a legal tactic carried out by a legal unit in a legitimate tactic, lets assume that baneblade wasnt there, now you have 15 terminators running around the enemy lines, does that sound any fairer?

Vaktathi
24-11-2009, 02:55
Personally, I always find Apoc games play best when the armies, terrain, and objectives are set up and agreed upon ahead of time and a story set up.

Otherwise it just turns into who can bring the most ridiculous thing and abuse it the best and lacks the awesome feeling that a set up scenario has.

Raven1
24-11-2009, 03:27
Personally, I always find Apoc games play best when the armies, terrain, and objectives are set up and agreed upon ahead of time and a story set up.

Now obviously we don't know the whole story however. One look at the players army list of deployment would show exactly what he is up to, and that is a perfectly legal and reliable tactic. Heck it would be legal in regular games of WH40K.

I place the blame squarely on the player who decided to deep strike in the vicinity of that obviously deadly combo.

avatarofportent
24-11-2009, 06:02
You want to know what was cheesy according to the other side? When they took an objective with overwhelming force from our side. We abandoned the objective because they had almost 2000pts of veteran marines on it. I turbo boosted a CSM bike squad into base with the objective and "corrupted and despoiled" it effectively taking over 2000pts of marines out of the battle cause they had nothing to fit for and they had too far of ground to cover to get to anything else.

You should of saw their faces....

juggalo4life84
24-11-2009, 07:18
the opponent was not 'cheesy' at all. he used a valid tactic to protect his lines from a very real threat of deep striking assault units, ex; terminators. just because you failed to account for a counter to your deepstrike tactic does not mean that your oponent used 'cheese' against you. basicaly what your saying is the same thing as a marine player using his devistator squad with lascannons is cheesy when it shoots at a vehicle because thats what the unit was designed for...

you got out-thinked in the pre-game. deal with it, think of a new tactic for last game and charge it to the game dude.

here's an example of a huge apoc game me and a few friends had a while ago. we had a very real weakness to flank march assaulters, what did we do? we took the catachan deathworld ambush formation. (we planned ahead...) what did one of our oponents do? flank march an entire army his entire 3k worth of points worth of meltabomb grenadiers (old 'dex) he though that he had the upper hand on our tanks, and he was going to singlehandedly devastate our gun line. everyone ignored the 15 vets standing out in the open... so when he did his thing, he was punished severaly with pulling off around half of his models due to the ambush asset that formation gave us. perfectly legit counter to a tactic used by your oponent.

bottom line, your tactic failed, go back to the drawing board come up with something else and try again. dont whine about it.

unheilig
24-11-2009, 08:02
on the apocalypse scale of cheese, that's not even a single shred of mild cheddar.

first of all, his plan should have never worked because your first stratagem should have been Disruptor Beacon.

on one hand, apocalypse should be fun for everyone and you should definitely set up storylines and have pre-game discussions and house rules. on the other hand... put your big boy pants on. this is apocalypse.

The Orange
24-11-2009, 12:45
It's what the Mystic does. It's not a secret trick the dude came up with.
Yes but last I checked there's no Baneblade in the Inquisition Codex. I.e. the designers never intended for it.


Its not like he had an inquisitor in a chaos or dark elder army.
Technically that's completely legal too seeing as this is Apocalypse.

The question is not about the legality of it, in Apoc. games the players are responsible for that not GW. I could play "chuck norris" and its completely legal under Apoc. as long as no one else cares.

The question that's most important is if this is something that would kill the game for players as that's what Apoc. games are about, a bunch of guys (and girls) having fun. It's not a competitive environment. Weather or not they should accept such a tactic in their games is up to them and no one else, but the fact that this guy held his tongue during the pre-game talk seems shady to me. Of course part of Apoc. games is the wacky things that happen too and IMO losing all those termies in one go could be just as enjoyable for both sides just for the story (just like 40 lasguns gunning down an Avatar, or assault marines getting blown away when they take down a super heavy, etc.) I'm only saying that if these players don't want to face that sort of thing again then they have every right not because in Apoc. games it's the players who choose whats right and what isen't, not GWs rulebooks.

Toe Cutter
24-11-2009, 12:58
Whether or not they should accept such a tactic in their games is up to them and no one else, but the fact that this guy held his tongue during the pre-game talk seems shady to me.


Firstly, perhaps he didn't know the terminators were going to attempt their bone headed rescue mission.

Secondly, perhaps it hadn't occurred to him at the time to do that.

Thirdly, its a fairly standard game mechanic. If you feel you have to discuss every tactic you intend to try out before hand, are you then getting to the point where you have to discuss what each of your formations is going to shoot at and where they're going to move to?

Mystics can call down shooting on deep strikers, lascannons can blow up vehicles, large pie plates put large dents in troop formations. This is all pretty standard stuff that people should know. I don't really think it even falls under the heading of 'things that should be discussed pre-game'.

Chaos and Evil
24-11-2009, 13:08
Apocalypse isn't meant to be balanced, or competative, or even a wargame, really.

It's just meant to be a michael bay-esque game where stuff explodes in the most awesome manner possible... with that in mind I don't think your opponents were being cheesy, as it's basically impossible to be cheesy when playing apocalypse.

Agnar the Howler
24-11-2009, 13:18
Oh, so if I assault a Titan with Guardians they should just ban Titans because it's unfair to people who play poorly? Right.

Unlike guardians, the Terminators had a chance of making the last few rounds fun by adding a little more of a tactical element, guardians vs a titan in combat is a crap comparison and I never said anything like it, so either shut up or come back with better material.

Brother Loki
24-11-2009, 13:23
I absolutely don't have a problem with the mystics/baneblade combo, and I can see why the player in question didn't bring it up at the pre-game briefing. I don't think its in any way shady. After all, that's what mystics do - it's not a trick or anything - its nothing out of the ordinary at all. However, that's not important. What is important is that your group felt it wasn't appropriate, and that's fine.

I can think of a number of possible fixes for this in future games, perhaps one or other of the following (I wouldn't combine both as it would neuter them too much):
1. You could rule that the mystic's ability only functions once per turn - meaning it wouldn't be nearly so disruptive.
2. You could rule that the inquisitor can only order non-vehicle units to fire on the deep strikers.
3. Leave it as is - people are unlikely to make the same mistake again!

Our group changes things all the time for our Apocalypse games, based on what we feel didn't work in a previous game. Flank march, for instance, we only allow for formations that actually come with it, and it only affects that formation. Ever since a cult of obliteration used tunnels and careful planning to annihilate a shadowsword formation before it even had a turn we have a house rule that you can't combine careful planning with any other deployment/reserves type asset (tunnels, flank march etc). Someone mentioned disruptor beacons - which I swear by, but in the last couple of games we've found them too useful so we're discussing limiting them in some way. Our ideas include one or more of the following:

1. Reducing the radius of effect to 24" not 48" or possibly making it random each turn e.g. 6D6"
2. Making it just push the unit to the edge of the disruptor 'bubble', not let us shift them 20 feet down the table so they take no part in the battle.

The point of this is to say that while I don't think there was anytihng particularly underhand about the incident you describe, you as a group should feel free to modify the rules as you see fit to suit your own games.

Brimstone
24-11-2009, 14:08
so either shut up or come back with better material.

Play nice please or I'll have to take further action.

The Warseer Inquisition

mughi3
24-11-2009, 14:21
HAHA

to the OP
when we frist started playing apocalypse when it was released the same exact thing happened.

somebody wanted to try out the terminator titan hammer data sheet. they new there was an inquisitor with mystics and they did ther best to take otu the squad before turn 2. unfortunately the inquisitor and 2 mystics were the only ones to survie out of the retinue. so when 40 terminators decided to drop in near him he had a baneblade light them up. didn't get them all but we really reduced the numbers.

It was a valid tactic and not the end of the game by any means. when we started running titans in addition to all the baneblades, macharius's and battle formations it got really nasty......do you know how powerful a reaver is with 6 turbo lasers?
:p

Apocalypse games are a big throw down for some over the top fun. try not to take it to seriously.

Faeslayer
24-11-2009, 14:36
Man, that's not cheese.

The last game I played (the first Apoc game I played!) I took that anti-flyer strategem. Being kinda fuzzy on the flyer rules I didn't realize at the time that (on a good roll) it actually removed a flyer from the game entirely.

The guy with the big pretty imperial flyer had to just put it away.

I felt dirty.

Thud
24-11-2009, 14:41
Man, that's not cheese.

The last game I played (the first Apoc game I played!) I took that anti-flyer strategem. Being kinda fuzzy on the flyer rules I didn't realize at the time that (on a good roll) it actually removed a flyer from the game entirely.

The guy with the big pretty imperial flyer had to just put it away.

I felt dirty.

If you're talking about the "Long Range Ack Ack" then he could just have disengaged and returned the next turn with no damage instead of taking the hits.

The Orange
24-11-2009, 14:41
Firstly, perhaps he didn't know the terminators were going to attempt their bone headed rescue mission.


The OP pretty clearly said that he did know and was expecting it so make of that what you will.

Faeslayer
24-11-2009, 14:42
If you're talking about the "Long Range Ack Ack" then he could just have disengaged and returned the next turn with no damage instead of taking the hits.

Well, now I feel ignorant instead of dirty. THANKS A LOT!

It was explained to me that "disengaged" was forever. Ah, well, serves us right for not looking it up.

marv335
24-11-2009, 14:45
I don't see the problem here.
If you deep strike close to an Inquisitor, you deserve the incoming shots.
An opponents stupidity is not a cheesy tactic.

Thud
24-11-2009, 14:50
Well, now I feel ignorant instead of dirty. THANKS A LOT!

It was explained to me that "disengaged" was forever. Ah, well, serves us right for not looking it up.

Nah. Blame the guy with the flyer. If he buys an expensive model from Forgeworld and loses it in a game because he doesn't know how it works then he can't really blame anyone else, can he? ;)

Baragash
24-11-2009, 15:14
Normally play with these Houserules:
Rules of the House: 3k per player No Destroyer weapons (not sure if this was said, or just turned out that way) One stratagem per side Each side can ban one stratagem for the opponents 30 mins time limit per team turn

Despite what some might consider a fairly restrictive set of houserules, I'd have absolutely no issue losing my Terminators to a Mystical Baneblade. IMO it's a learning point for the owner of the Terminators, nothing more.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
24-11-2009, 16:17
Firstly, perhaps he didn't know the terminators were going to attempt their bone headed rescue mission.

Secondly, perhaps it hadn't occurred to him at the time to do that.

Thirdly, its a fairly standard game mechanic. If you feel you have to discuss every tactic you intend to try out before hand, are you then getting to the point where you have to discuss what each of your formations is going to shoot at and where they're going to move to?

Mystics can call down shooting on deep strikers, lascannons can blow up vehicles, large pie plates put large dents in troop formations. This is all pretty standard stuff that people should know. I don't really think it even falls under the heading of 'things that should be discussed pre-game'.

Well said.

Putting an Inquisitor and a pair of mystics down on the table is functionally no different in Apocalypse then in a standard game. The terminators should have known better then to drop within the sense range of the mystics, particularly with a baneblade sitting right there. Pick a different target and tear it up there instead.

If the Inquisitor/baneblade was the only target the Terminators could deep strike to, then perhaps you aren't playing with enough objectives or spreading them out far enough. Rest assured that from here on out, when the players from that game see the Inquisitor and mystics (apocalypse or not) they'll remember exactly what they are for and adjust their strategy accordingly.

TGaunt
24-11-2009, 17:00
because people are discussing ways to make apoc more fun and stuff here another bit:

some houserules to fix stuff:

only one D or Void type gun per superheavy.
Flank march gives your army the outflank special rule.
disruptor beacon puts the unit back into reserve. it automatically works if the unit is within 12d6 (first place all reserves, then roll for the disruptors range once). it doesnt affect units which entered from their own board edge (learned that the hard way when someone laid down 10 6es with the 12d6 ...).

main weapons are counted as one unit for mystic's use. any unit (or main weapon) can only fire once per phase (helps that your reaver doesnt shoot 8 pie plates of doom 5 times a moving phase :) ).

everyone gets carefull planing for free (but stuff must enter at turn 2 the latest. turn 3 if you actually baught the asset). this speeds up games where you can only do 2-4 turns...

Brother Loki
24-11-2009, 17:09
That last one's actually a good idea TGaunt. Might suggest that to our club, as we play 20,000 points per side, and we never get past 4 turns if that.

The Red Scourge
24-11-2009, 17:14
Basicly one player took an inqiusiter with two mystics wated for deep striking terminators ( knew they were coming) used the free shot ability ON A BANE BLADE

Thats what inquisitors do. Now you know, and next time you won't make the same mistake. Instead relish the scene, where those 15 termies are blasted apart :)

Oh, and have the commander responsible executed for incompetence - that makes for a good story ;)

god of smite
24-11-2009, 17:20
Thanks guys for all the opinins for the recored the player was my ally and pulled this on our oppents I knew it was legal the only reason I posted the thread was to see how the community felt about it. It was kinda sucky we were winning the game and to see the faces of the oppents as there last ditch effort was smited was a little anti climatic. but he thats apoc for you. anyways thank you all for the apoc tips tgaunt those are some good ideas I will through to the group.

god of smite
24-11-2009, 17:21
PS ANY BODY IN the san francisco bay area looking for some apoc games we have a club of about fiffteen members have a huge custom apoc board. so any body intersted drop me a line

Promethius
24-11-2009, 17:24
Personally I don't understand the issue here; the player followed the rules without any dodgy misinterpretation and used the mystic to do what they are supposed to do. The fault, if any, lies with the deep striking player. I would say lesson learned, probably not something that sm player will do with their termies again, and move on. Maybe next time he'll get the jump on the other guy!

MVBrandt
24-11-2009, 17:35
I think this is not cheese, really ... especially if it wasn't barred.

I do think you should make sure these things are clear. If you know IN ADVANCE for instance that your opponent is taking like Deathwing ... then taking that mystic/baneblade type combo WOULD be total cheese.

This happened to a lot of negativity in a recent apoc game we meticulously planned and what-not, when one person knew in advance that an opponent was demons ... so they all took mystics w/ inquisitors, and proceeded to wtfbuttrape his demons with psycannons and the like as they came down.

There's a time and a place for everything, make sure you keep in mind the point of your game and get it well illustrated to everyone beforehand. If you have any whiney annoying douches who are no fun to play apoc with for whatever reason - either ******* things, whiney things, or both ... then don't invite them back.

Cerraand
24-11-2009, 17:51
I think this should be discussed more in your gaming group since you had some special pre-game arrangement.

I often offered my opponent re-rolls and accepted impossible challenges(in fantasy) just for the sake of seeing it happen. So I guess if you were already winning he should just mentioned it without doing it.

Brother Loki
24-11-2009, 18:03
Another thing is if I were him I'd probably have said something when the opponent sarted to land terminators near the mystics, as in "Are you sure you want to deep strike there? That's pretty close to the mystics". The opponent might not have realised what they were or what they do, and that would have been an opportunity to avoid the situation. Both sides benefit - the mystics because they've driven off the deep strikers, and the terminators because they're not all wiped out.

Bunnahabhain
24-11-2009, 18:14
Nice compromise, Brother Loki. Pointing out things that seem blinding obvious, but other may not have noticed can be very useful, and add hugely to a game. It can also be incredibly annoying if the player being advised knows what they're doing.

As ever, judgement and moderation make the crucial difference...

Ixquic
24-11-2009, 18:31
I don't want ridiculously huge squads of terminators deep striking right next to my stuff so I'd do exactly the same thing as an Inquisition player. Seriously it's really obvious what mystics do (it's only one thing and they did it) so how can you act outraged that a player used them? The range is only 4D6" (about 14" on average) so it's the Marine's fault for stupidly entering next to them. Inquisitors are designed to be used in Guard armies with their large blast tanks already so if anything that combo makes more sense than any cross faction pairing.

I'm not sure what admitting to planning it out matters since he was using the models and rules as intended without any kind of crazy rules stretching. Look at pretty much any Apoc stratagem or special formation and it will do something equally crazy. Complaining that you didn't get to use YOUR crazy **** (15 assault terminators doesn't seem a bit much to you?) since he out crazied you is pretty lame.

On a related note my best Mystic moment was when a unit of demons deepstruck right next to a dominion sister squad with 5 flamers. Not only was that unit destroyed but the one behind it took about 50% casualties. It was hilarious.

damiengore
24-11-2009, 21:01
I played in an apoc tourney last year, 2 players per team, 3000pts per player, no restricitions.

Apart from being fun the top team was something like this:

2 Reavers, 4 Warhounds, 3 landraiders with 5 man marine squads in each, 3 inquisitors with dual mystics.

Their strategems were disruptor beacon and Double Objective. The beacon moves your deep striking/outflanking unit within range of at least 2 Inquisitors and then your eating 6 D strength templates, a melta cannon and 2 apoc launchers.

They got to play an all daemon army in game 1, guess how that went?

The funny thing is I think my team could have trashed them. We had a reaver, baneblade and a Bio-Titan, my tyranid partner had the outflank strategem and I had the Mirage of tzeentch. If anyone could have done it we could have!

Apoc is best playing with friends with a good story and plenty of planning time!

Ozendorph
24-11-2009, 21:45
Apoc is best playing with friends with a good story and plenty of planning time!

Absolutely. I love Apocalypse, but I wouldn't go anywhere near a competitive Apoc tournament.

BattleSarge
25-11-2009, 04:06
Call it what you will. I saw one game where a guy had 4 inq with one acolyte each and his opposition had a daemon army. The guy with the daemon army used the Warp Rift and to counter this, the imp player maneuvered his inqs into position and used the one psychic power sanctuary and basically made it impossible for the daemons to appear without being destroyed.

When the inq took the hit for the perils of the warp he put the wound on the acolytes.

I have also heard about the warlord titan and the strategic redeployment. Ufta.

theDarkGeneral
25-11-2009, 04:47
:D Wish I could've seen that!

As many have already mentioned, it's APOCALYPSE!!! Not for the feint of heart, or easily offended.

I've played in quite a few Mega-Apocalypse games, and organized all but one of them (that was a mistake!).

Players can get quite creative, and quite ruthless when you allow them free reign for Armies...especially my gaming community, as most of us have in upwards of 10,000pts+ each...

As such, (and now that you've experienced some of the pain) I ALWAYS create a storlyine, and rules/restrictions. This helps keep the game fun in two ways...firstly we have a "why we're fighting" and secondly, it helps keep the game "balanced".

To use an example, next month I'm running the CHAOS WASTE COAST Battle. It pits myself and 2 good buddies (one who's driving down from Seattle, WA.) using our Khorne Armies vs 4 of our friends, who're representing the Traitor Legions. So, each side will have roughly 35,000pts+...

It's easy to create crazy, near impossible to stop lists, that annihilate everything in their path...but what fun is that? Apcolypse isn't soley about winning, it's about putting lots (if not all) your models on the table, along with friends, and having an epic style battle!

For my game coming up, the Khorne side is restricted to Khorne and Undivided marked units/characters and Formations. The Traitor Legions side has no such restrictions. Special Characters are limited to one per player, so I'm sure we'll see 3 Abaddons on my side and 4 on the other. However, data sheet Formations are limited to ONE per team. This helps cuts down on the non-fun cheesefest. Thus only 1 Maelstrom of Gore and only 1 Bloodthirster Bloodbath can be on our side, and vice versa.

Also, Strategems are restricted. Hold at all Costs is always banned in my group, as it makes the game get quite silly fast. Since we have only 3 players on our side, and the points is quite hefty, we're allowed a total of 6 picked Strategems, plust any gained from data sheet formations. Our opponents are thus allowed 6 Stratagems for their team, and any gained by their data sheet formations.

My storlyine is quite extensive, but to keep it short here, basically Lord Khorne has sent 3 of his TRUE CHOSEN out to force the Traitor Legions into a temporary allegiance (for an upcoming Mega-Apocalypse game in March). The Traitor Legions being assaulted realized that they must align together, or be crushed seperately...so once climatic battle!


Now each player has been so pumped (and talking plenty of smack to each other) about this game, that ALL of us have been buying extra models/units/etc.!

One of the main rules for this game, as a side note, is that ALL of our models must be mostly painted! No plastic/primered/pewter/lead figures allowed!

Chrysis
25-11-2009, 05:01
We had a big game once where this sort of thing happened. Story was that the forces of chaos were assaulting an imperial city, and the table was laid out as effectively two big tables with a bridge between them. One of the tables was the imperial city, and the other was the outskirts. The chaos team had a small deployment area in the city, and the imperials a small one in the outskirts away from the bridge.

As the imperials were supposed to defend that's exactly what they did, placing a disruptor beacon in the centre of their table with an inquisitor + mystics guard. Dotted around the table were sets of the bare minimum inquisitor + mystics and baneblades. There was also a warlord titan in the back corner. Due to their careful layout of inquisitors it was impossible to deepstrike into their table without being first disrupted, and if not disrupted shot at by a baneblade or the warlord.

Any attempt to get across the bridge or attack from the small deployment was just annihilated before anything could get in range to retaliate. The chaos team deemed it a lost cause and worked on attacking the two players who had deployed their armies on the outskirts. One of these players was the organiser, who got increasingly upset as the game went on that the chaos players weren't throwing their armies away trying to get into the city and were actually trying to at least hold an equal number of objectives. This, unfortunately, had the net effect of leaving the 3 or so imperial players who had fortified the city with pretty much nothing to do with the exception of firing the warlord.

By about the 3 quarter mark he ruled that the disruptor beacon no longer worked, but it was too little too late as the mystic + SH net still guaranteed that no where near enough chaos units would survive to make a difference. It ended up a slight win for the imperials because of chaos objective taking, but overall the game was ruined because of unregulated super heavies and a defensive set up that was far too effective.

Of course, I can think of one counter that would stop it being unassailable, but it's not the most practical setup and would merely open a beachhead. Since then the organiser has started placing strict limits on superheavies/strength D, and limited the disruptor beacon to units being placed at the edge of it's bubble instead of anywhere. Outflank was already limited to only the datasheets that gave it and only to the models in the sheet.

The problem with an inquistor + mystics is that in normal games there aren't that many and they will always be close enough that non deepstrike units can take care of them, often before the deepstrikers arrive. In Apoc they are cheap enough to buy a half dozen minimum size teams to cover an enormous area in ways that only deepstrikers can get to them, and that deepstrikers can't actually survive trying rendering deepstrike almost completely useless.

theDarkGeneral
25-11-2009, 05:15
Oh wow!

Now that'd be a very frustrating game! Just the idea of having to traverse a bridge to get there is rough...funny, we have a large bridge in our upcoming game (6' x 2') but it's simply connecting 2 of the 5 tables...which are all connected anyways in the middle...

Yeah, Apocalypse Organsizer really need to sit down and think things out, otherwise it can be a long and frustrating game...

Chrysis
25-11-2009, 05:48
The bridge idea was fine, but the combination of a thin bridge, a warlord titan and the complete inability to deepstrike meant that it was impossible to make any headway. remove the warlord or the total defense against deepstrike and it was a workable scenario. Two of the chaos players were demon armies, and their job was to establish a beachhead to distract the imperials while others came over the bridge, but the total defense against deepstrike meant they didn't stand a chance, and so the team didn't stand a chance at getting into the city. This was quickly apparent, so the chaos team simply left the city alone, which wasn't much fun for anyone as the chaos team knew the stories objective was impossible to attain and over half the imperial players couldn't do anything, having deployed in such a way it would take them too long to get over the bridge themselves. They had to settle for using whatever super long range stuff they had and cleaning up the initial token effort to make a beachhead. Didn't help the imperials won first turn and thus got to hammer all our units in a position to come across. They did their job far too well, and it ended up not being nearly as much fun as it could have been.

There is only one way of getting past a mystics + disruptor pod combo that I can think of and that's Dreadclaws. They don't enter via deepstrike, so they don't trigger either defense but can land where they like. Only problem is they arrive one turn and land the next, which means only deepstrikers arriving on turn 3 in Apocalypse can exploit the gap you create with them. So you need to be able to coordinate with another deepstriker to really pull it off well as the dreadclaw player will need careful planning and the other will need to plan their reserves out so the majority arrives turn 3.

It could be devastating if planned and executed properly, but it's a big effort. Getting enough dreadclaw models together to make a difference is an expensive/big undertaking unless you just use droppod models and you need at least two players working together to really do a good job of it.

theDarkGeneral
25-11-2009, 06:53
Interesting thoughts on the Dreadclaws...my gaming group uses them as the current Space Marines Codex for deepstrike, with the ability to fly off if they're not immobilized on the drop. Actually using the Dreadclaw Dread Talon Formation for this upcoming Mega-Apocalypse game...

Alessander
25-11-2009, 07:06
problem here seems to be a new player (new to 40K in general) playing in an Apoc game. Apoc has some nasty units, and if you don't know the special rules of the enemy armies that you are bound to get your ass handed to you.

It was a clever move, I wouldn't call it cheesy at all. Mystics have become very popular (mystics can be used in 4 different 40K armies too, due to the inq allies rule) lately and droppod/terminator mystic-zapping has been very common. Using it on a superheavy is taking advantage of an awesome and very rare event.

Chrysis
25-11-2009, 07:14
I never figured out how the Dread Talon rules worked with the Dreadclaw rules themselves, as them arriving via Deepstrike around a target point would mean next turn they fly away and land somewhere else.

I was thinking a Maelstrom of Gore with every unit of berserkers in a dreadclaw. It's one unit for reserves, so it all arrives at the same time and they are excellent CC troops. I think for 2000 points you could get about 59 + Kharn in Dreadclaws. Add Careful planning and turn two you have 60 angry world eaters arriving exactly where you want them. Maelstrom of Gore gives them fleet, so the 1d6 deviation of the Dreadclaw rules doesn't stop them landing close enough to assault. They disembark as from a moving open-topped transport, and as they didn't deepstrike there is nothing stopping them from assaulting the turn they land. So turn two has 60 angry world eaters assaulting whatever units they want. Turn one they are all in flyers, so unless the opponent has enough AA it should be easy enough to tuck them somewhere where they can't be shot at and are far enough away from your chosen targets.

The plan for breaching the mystics and disruption pod network was exactly this. Turn two your berserkers arrive right next to the pod and any nearby mystics. One squad assaulting each should be enough deal with them, and the rest of the squads are free to deal with whatever they want. Turn 3 your teammates, who have loaded their reserves so that the main strength arrive turn 3, drop their main forces into the freshly opened hole in the enemy defense network and do their thing.