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catbarf
25-11-2009, 17:27
I've been wondering, why do some people (non-Nid players, of course) want Tyranids to be nerfed? Tyranids are a shadow of what they were in 2nd Ed. People complain that Genestealers are too powerful, when last edition, they had much better rending, in 2nd Ed, they were S6, had 4 attacks, and caused Fear- along with much of the rest of the army, including even Zoanthropes. Carnifexes were T8 and had 10 wounds. Tyranids didn't suddenly get more powerful, and if anything most of the options are extremely expensive for what they do. Even Nidzilla isn't terribly frightening, as the basic armament of most races can kill them (unlike with, say, 9 Leman Russes bearing down on you), and Tyranid shooting is mediocre at best.

Tyranids are the army that is specialized. Unlike your I-can-kill-everything-equally-well Tactical Marine squad, a unit of Genestealers or Hormagaunts has one specific purpose and excels at it. They're supposed to be either better or cheaper than Marines, because they don't have power armor or ranged weapons.

Am I seeing something that doesn't exist? Is there some reason I've missed?

WH40KAj
25-11-2009, 17:31
I've not really seen it. But they get through marine equivalent statlines easy and I can see why that would upset people. Some are probably bracing to not like them, others just don't aliens eating their stunted little bearded men?
But yeah, it does happen here from time to time..but this is Whineseer ;)

owen matthew
25-11-2009, 17:39
agreed, catbarf. It also blows my mind the amount of professed tyranind players who want nerfs implemented themselves, like they are seeking to hand out a pre-appology for whatever they will get with the new book. Well them and the ones who are die-hard Tyranids are only CC, and were always meant to be, and now they finally will be again....

I've been playing way too long for some of this to compute!

Necro Angelo
25-11-2009, 17:44
one thing I've noticed about tyranids is that when you're facing them a lot of their units look (and sound from rules POV) a lot more formidable than they actually are... and you know how impressionable some people are.

viking657
25-11-2009, 17:55
I'm ready for collecting nids this jan but as a player who hasn't really bothered with them much before I want them to become unstoppable but not so I can win alot of games.
I'm really looking forward to facing them more than anything and feeling the terror of a wave of nids crashing into my guard lines, when I first started playing the sight of sea of nids was inspiring and the fluff says they supposed to be the biggest threat to the Imperium but my Valhallans with no special tricks don't currently have a problem dealing with them.
I know I'm in the minority but I can't wait to have them beat the crap out of my army and challange my gaming skill. Many players (mainly marines) will moan about how they aren't top dog anymore and just sulk instead of embracing the new challenge.

mightymconeshot
25-11-2009, 17:58
they are nerfing the two units in the game most seen stealers and fexs. they reason that they can get more sales for their other items not realizing it is the last decent choice in the book which is why we take it.

viking657
25-11-2009, 18:13
I've got a funny feeling people (non nids of course) will hate them by end of Jan, they will be greatly improved and on a par with the top 40k armies.
Can't wait to see the dex and all the outflank rules everything will be given (hope), never mind the new releases, its the use of 5th edition rules everyone will complain about

Malice&Mizery
25-11-2009, 18:22
The whiners will cry, and commit suicide like they do everytime a new 'Dex/Army book is released. Such is the way of WarSeer.

I'm looking forward to thier release, more so than any other army EVER to be honest.

Vepr
25-11-2009, 18:25
There are no rumors to take out of context and freak out about this time. :p Who knows, maybe they will just end up being xeno guard with orders etc. Tyrant Straken, Marlictor, you will be able to glance a biovore. ;)

leonmallett
25-11-2009, 18:31
I think some people will always dislike some armies. Tyranids are not likely an exception. That said, compared to my alternative army options Tyranids are pretty weak in too many areas, especially that if you try to do the archetypal Tyranid horde you end up with an embarrassment of simply embarrassingly poor units.

darker4308
25-11-2009, 18:32
For a long time I did not like nids because I always felt that all they did was run at me. Eventually you play against people who don't play 40k this way and things get a lot more interesting.

SPYDER68
25-11-2009, 18:35
I don't play tyranids.. and i think its a nice looking army, and im very glad they are getting a new codex.

Might haft to do the army one day.

grg3d
25-11-2009, 18:42
Thats Ok Beef up the Nids......Then Gw will Release a "New and improved Space Marines Codex" to counter the threat...:rolleyes:

catbarf
25-11-2009, 18:43
Well them and the ones who are die-hard Tyranids are only CC, and were always meant to be, and now they finally will be again....

Yeah, that's something I don't get either. Termagants had three different guns in 2nd Ed, Carnifexes had a long-range blast attack, only the CC specialists, really, couldn't shoot.

Although I suppose that part of the 'alien horror' is all the teeth, claws, and such, whereas living ammunition doesn't quite have the same primal impact. But even still.

Eh. I've always been a Nid player, so I'm excited about the release, I'm just worried that the iconic Tyranid death-dealers are going to have their claws replaced with foam fingers.

SPYDER68
25-11-2009, 18:45
Yeah, that's something I don't get either. Termagants had three different guns in 2nd Ed, Carnifexes had a long-range blast attack, only the CC specialists, really, couldn't shoot.

Although I suppose that part of the 'alien horror' is all the teeth, claws, and such, whereas living ammunition doesn't quite have the same primal impact. But even still.

Eh. I've always been a Nid player, so I'm excited about the release, I'm just worried that the iconic Tyranid death-dealers are going to have their claws replaced with foam fingers.

Judging anything by the last few codex releases.. i wouldnt be to worried about them getting foam fingers.

MVBrandt
25-11-2009, 19:02
Tyranids at present beat up on people for most of 4th edition, and well-run Nids still do.

I think there's a lot of long-built "fear" in the community of self-piloting all-punishing tyranid armies ... we'll see what we'll see.

primarch16
25-11-2009, 19:31
If anything nids need a buff in the codex, which they doubt get. They cant hack the mech game that is 5th, they need some better faster tank busters if they're gonna survive. Still units of carnifexes, getting the old edition rending back, none of this would surprise me...

Chem-Dog
25-11-2009, 20:01
Tyranids are a shadow of what they were in 2nd Ed. People complain that Genestealers are too powerful, when last edition, they had much better rending, in 2nd Ed, they were S6, had 4 attacks, and caused Fear- along with much of the rest of the army, including even Zoanthropes. Carnifexes were T8 and had 10 wounds. Tyranids didn't suddenly get more powerful, and if anything most of the options are extremely expensive for what they do. Even Nidzilla isn't terribly frightening, as the basic armament of most races can kill them (unlike with, say, 9 Leman Russes bearing down on you), and Tyranid shooting is mediocre at best.

You can't really compare 2nd Edition rules with current rules, I mean, even an IG colonel had Ws 6....


Tyranids are the army that is specialized. Unlike your I-can-kill-everything-equally-well Tactical Marine squad, ?

Space Marines are the jacks of all trades, they do everything better than your basic troops but seldom do better than your specialist units. Compare an entire Codex to a single (fairly flexible) unit and you're bound to come up with a skewed evaluation.

As for the original question, the problem I've had with Tyranids since their new release is the debacle with Synapse, FAQ'd into immunity to instant death as a result of internet based outrage. The one time GW should have stuck to their guns and the one time they didn't. Again, I may be biased as I've played against an all warrior list quite a few times in the last three years, it never goes well.

TGaunt
25-11-2009, 20:25
tyranids are feared because they essentially were the only swarm based army with a chance before the orks got redone.

additionally while E5 has nerfed nidzilla the metagame swing to meltaspam has greatly increased the survivability of all nid units (even a TMC laughs if you fire a meltagun because all that can happen is that it looses one wound).

basically it is because they are alien and would require people to think and change their easy anti-mech-anti-meq lists into something more balanced. beople are dumb and dont like to think so they hate nids :P

Giganthrax
25-11-2009, 20:28
I think tyranids really need a buff, actually, and am happy that they're getting a new codex.

Their inability to deal with mech pretty much makes them one of the weakest armies in 5th ed, IMHO.

Gray Hunter
25-11-2009, 20:42
It's always the same when any new Codex for Army X is coming out. There will be a small (but vocal) group who whines about how Army X is already too powerful, and how Army X doesn't even need a new Codex, and how Army X should be nerfed but instead they'll be made even more powerful with uber-combos of unstoppable death that will break the game.

Chaos Marines: Double lash will break the game
Orks: Nob Warbikers will break the game
Space Marines: All Space Marines keep getting improved every five minutes and will break the game
Imperial Guard: Nine Leman Russes will break the game
Space Wolves: Jaws of the World Wolf will break the game

Have any of these things broken our beloved game? No. Of course, every gaming group has That Guy who will use any (and usually all) of these things every single time he plays, but anyone who keeps playing That Guy and expects anything different and/or can't adapt to his lame, unoriginal tactics deserves everything they get.

catbarf
25-11-2009, 20:44
You can't really compare 2nd Edition rules with current rules, I mean, even an IG colonel had Ws 6....

I know, but there's not that much of a difference and Genestealers are certainly terrifying under the old rules.


Space Marines are the jacks of all trades, they do everything better than your basic troops but seldom do better than your specialist units. Compare an entire Codex to a single (fairly flexible) unit and you're bound to come up with a skewed evaluation.

I agree. I didn't mean to specifically compare an army to a unit, but Marines can do just about anything. They're tough, and the shooty troops get anti-tank and melee upgrades while the melee troops are fast and have ranged weapons. So I scratch my head a bit when someone is shocked that a Genestealer, with no armor and ordinary movement, happens to be better in a different aspect than a Space Marine.


As for the original question, the problem I've had with Tyranids since their new release is the debacle with Synapse, FAQ'd into immunity to instant death as a result of internet based outrage. The one time GW should have stuck to their guns and the one time they didn't. Again, I may be biased as I've played against an all warrior list quite a few times in the last three years, it never goes well.

That's odd, Warriors are regarded as one of the weaker choices in the codex due to their fragility. Without the ID-immunity, a few lascannons or missile launchers would wreak havoc on the Synapse capability of the swarm. Even now, Warriors fall rapidly to Bolter fire. Relying on fragile units for Synapse is a problem- yet another reason Nidzilla is popular. I certainly hope Warriors can be upgraded in the new book to be tougher, as that is, right now, their weakest point.

Incoming
26-11-2009, 14:21
Tyranids should be lesser points value.

Monachus
26-11-2009, 14:46
they are nerfing the two units in the game most seen stealers and fexs. they reason that they can get more sales for their other items not realizing it is the last decent choice in the book which is why we take it.

according to about 3 people so far, with no one of any standing saying any such things

TheHaunted
26-11-2009, 15:30
People hate tyranids because the writer of the new codex is the writer of the new Gaurd codex, which is without a doubt the most stupidly powerful army in the game. Therefore everyone can count on an over the top unbalanced army that can do everything better than everyone for cheaper. I personally love tyranids and think they need a little help but I'm considering selling the army based on this new author.

Mannimarco
26-11-2009, 15:50
people hate them because theyre new simple

new things are pretty much always more powerful than previous books, thats another reason for the hate: your new armys power level is through the roof, its vastly more powerful than all the older books so now if i want to compete i have to go buy a more up to date army

case and point: lets take an old army, say.......oh i dunno grey knights or somthing, now lets put them up against one of the newer more powerful (but not broken, cos as we know theres no such thing as codex creep) lets take the above mentioned imperial guard, which is arguably one of the more powerful books at the moment

its not the nids that are hated per se, its the fact that they are new and will be the all conquering army of mega cheesy brokenness until the next book comes out and is even bigger and better and (most importantly) cheaper

Eulenspiegel
26-11-2009, 15:59
I think if you did a survey youīd find that much, much more people actually merely hate Nidzilla and not Tyranids as such.

Agnar the Howler
26-11-2009, 16:08
I think if you did a survey youīd find that much, much more people actually merely hate Nidzilla and not Tyranids as such.

QFT.

Being a Tau player, I struggle against Nidzilla. Yes, railguns excel, but when you're facing several regenfexes with a extra wound, an extra point of toughness and whatever else, it becomes far too hard to even think about killing them. With some carnifexes having 5 wounds apiece and being toughness 7 in some cases, it makes them basically immune to all tau instagibs and need 5 railgun shots to kill. We can't even rely on plasma, since it's S6, and will wound T6 fexes on 4's (T7 ones on 5s! Even marines have an easier time).

The only thing you can do is run around and capture objectivea late-game. With kill points, yeah, you can kill the two min. spinegaunt squads they brought, but you can't kill the exorbitant amount of heavy carnifexes etc.

Bit of a rant there, but it's true, I don't hate Nids, just Nidzilla.

Bloodknight
26-11-2009, 16:15
People complain that Genestealers are too powerful, when last edition, they had much better rending, in 2nd Ed, they were S6, had 4 attacks, and caused Fear- along with much of the rest of the army, including even Zoanthropes. Carnifexes were T8 and had 10 wounds.

Well, you could one-shot a Carnifex with a Lascannon and if you got through the armour, you'd usually one-shot it with a Multmelta (2D12 damage).

That said, people probably hate Nidzilla, but even that is more fun than playing against Nids in 2nd edition could have ever been. Nids used to be the one army that I never had fun against since they screwed around with too many rules (like their equivalent to strategy cards that was usually much better than strategy cards and the ridiculous effect some of their guns had - Strangleweb and Barbed Strangler my ***).

The Carnifex's long range shooting attack in 2nd edition was an 18" blast melta that was move or fire unless you bought an adrenalin sac (no idea how that was really called in English) which took away one biomorph slot. I didn't see Fexes use that much.


I would say that Nids were the most fun to play against under the 3rd edition codex and 3rd edition rules, when they didn't just hide and try to shoot the crap out of you, but actually looked like a Tyranid army.

That said, if I wrote the book, I'd seriously up the Carnifex's combat statline (+fleet) and decrease its shooting to a bioplasma spit attack. Never liked the Gunfex.

genestealer_baldric
26-11-2009, 16:25
but people preconcived notions can help when they cry havok and unload everything at a squad of stealers and lets the non important gaunts get closer, this is a big mistake that they will eventually learn the error of there ways.

Can we leave 2nd ed alone its no relivence on most of today concived notion of the nids, but the sea of stealers and nidzillas.

Hicks
26-11-2009, 17:34
I guess it's a sentiment left over from 4th edition when there was a clear cheeze list for nids, Nidzilla. Right now nids don't have it as bad as necrons, but the 5th edition rules really made them a ton weaker. Nidzilla is now easy to beat, really easy if you tailor for it and the codex is mostly filled with garbage.

Black Antelope
26-11-2009, 17:49
As a 'nid player, I think a lot of things need improveing, rather than nerfing. Would be nice for swarm to be as competative as Nidzilla, but nerfing is NOT the way to go with this.

Certainly, even though I rarly field more than 1 or 2 units of them, I will be really upset if they nerf stealers stats. They should be one of the best assult units in the game (offensively of course, def. should still suck).

Again with fex's, I never use them, but i dont think dropping them below T6 W4 is the way to go.

Just drop points costs for guants/gargolys etc to make up for No Retreat (or get rid of it:angel:), Stealers to elites, increase costs of guns.

self biased
26-11-2009, 18:20
It's always the same when any new Codex for Army X is coming out. There will be a small (but vocal) group who whines about how Army X is already too powerful, and how Army X doesn't even need a new Codex, and how Army X should be nerfed but instead they'll be made even more powerful with uber-combos of unstoppable death that will break the game.

Chaos Marines: Double lash will break the game
Orks: Nob Warbikers will break the game
Space Marines: All Space Marines keep getting improved every five minutes and will break the game
Imperial Guard: Nine Leman Russes will break the game
Space Wolves: Jaws of the World Wolf will break the game

Have any of these things broken our beloved game? No. Of course, every gaming group has That Guy who will use any (and usually all) of these things every single time he plays, but anyone who keeps playing That Guy and expects anything different and/or can't adapt to his lame, unoriginal tactics deserves everything they get.


quoted for posterity.

Souleater
26-11-2009, 18:24
I haven't seen much here apart from the usual anti-Nidzilla feelings.

However, I've always known people bitch about their favorite unit getting mauled in CC by Stealers/Tyrants, etc despite my army having by that time accrued a much larger casualty pile.

DuskRaider
26-11-2009, 18:31
If anything, I think Nids definitely need a boost. Yes, they can be nasty, yes they can still give you a run for your money. But I think the advent of Mechhammer 40K really screwed them hardcore.

I'm glad to hear Genestealers will be getting a nerf, however. I absolutely hate those things, and when they can hit even before some of the CC experts of the game, WITH implant attack and rending... There's something wrong.

Nidzilla needs to be done away with. The emphasis should be swarms, as this is what Tyranids actually do. Warriors definitely need a boost, they're supposed to be the backbone of the Tyranid army. In their present incarnation, they're a free killpoint, more or less.

Souleater
26-11-2009, 18:40
I'm glad to hear Genestealers will be getting a nerf, however. I absolutely hate those things, and when they can hit even before some of the CC experts of the game, WITH implant attack and rending... There's something wrong.

Stealers are however, fragile and expensive when upgraded.

They are meant to be contenders as the best (non-IC) CC fighters in the game.

Next time Stealer annoy you compare the amount of casualites you have done to the Nid army.

catbarf
26-11-2009, 19:12
I'm glad to hear Genestealers will be getting a nerf, however. I absolutely hate those things, and when they can hit even before some of the CC experts of the game, WITH implant attack and rending... There's something wrong.

CC experts of other armies tend to be cheaper or have power armor. Genestealers need to be the best of the best in order to be worth their price.

Murphy's law
26-11-2009, 21:21
QFT.Being a Tau player, I struggle against Nidzilla. Yes, railguns excel, but when you're facing several regenfexes with a extra wound, an extra point of toughness and whatever else, it becomes far too hard to even think about killing them. With some carnifexes having 5 wounds apiece and being toughness 7 in some cases, it makes them basically immune to all tau instagibs and need 5 railgun shots to kill. We can't even rely on plasma, since it's S6, and will wound T6 fexes on 4's (T7 ones on 5s! Even marines have an easier time).The only thing you can do is run around and capture objectivea late-game. With kill points, yeah, you can kill the two min. spinegaunt squads they brought, but you can't kill the exorbitant amount of heavy carnifexes etc.Bit of a rant there, but it's true, I don't hate Nids, just Nidzilla.
Maybe you're doing something wrong.
Your plasmasuits should kill carnifexes with a blink of an eye.(combined suits ofcourse)
Outflanking genestealers are much more frightening for Tau.

I get iritated by the Nidzilla hate in general.
I only field something like 3 carnifexes in 1750 points and people still cry "NIDZILLA!".
I hate it.
I'll love to see those faces if i can field 3 trygon's in january.
It will be hilarious.

Hadafix
26-11-2009, 21:23
Well I look forward in hope of the Nids being a tough as old boots army. Why would I want them to be nurfed and face off something that is hardly worth my time to take on, I may as well face IG in CC and have it over with.

Even Ripper swarms should have me thinking "omg, I'm gonna die! OMG, I'M GONNA DIE!" when placed in groups of 5+ bases and about to go in to CC. But die in droves to shooting, a bit like Scarabs but nastier.

Nids really should be the stuff of nightmares that even Marines struggle to cope with.

And no army at present has one build thats effective, Nids shouldnt be the first one, nor should any other.

IAMNOTHERE
26-11-2009, 21:45
Nid hate? Not seen any round here, which posts have gone down that road?

I'm looking forward to a new nid codex simply because it will give me more options to fight against. I never really struggled against nidzilla - one of my regulars used it for well over a year in 4th and 5th.

All you have to do is take ranged antitank and your sorted. My worry always was and still is the horde.

I dread facing true fearless hordes: 4 mobs of 30 orks, 6 squads of won gaunts in synapse, IG massed platoons, all send shivers down my spine in tournies because of my army style.

Nevertheless I'd still like to see a scaleable 3 to 20pt gaunt that you can truely evlove, possibly even over the course of the game.

Bring it on Nid players.

Bodysnatcher
26-11-2009, 22:08
I think the montrous creature rules in general are broken - MCs are several times more survivable than an equivalent vehicle.

Agnar the Howler
26-11-2009, 22:36
Maybe you're doing something wrong.
Your plasmasuits should kill carnifexes with a blink of an eye.(combined suits ofcourse)
Outflanking genestealers are much more frightening for Tau.

I get iritated by the Nidzilla hate in general.
I only field something like 3 carnifexes in 1750 points and people still cry "NIDZILLA!".
I hate it.
I'll love to see those faces if i can field 3 trygon's in january.
It will be hilarious.

You try killing 3 Regenfexes with reinforced chitin and bonded exoskeletons with about 5-6 suits. At non-suicide range (24") you get 5-6 plasma shots. Assuming you armed up well, two HQs should be hitting on 2s and the others on 3s. You'll get around 3-4 hits. Then you need 5s to wound, about 1-2 are wounding a single fex. Next turn, he regenerates the wounds and walks forward. The only way you can kill them is by tailoring, and having 9 crisis suits with twin-linked plasma, 2 HQs with twin-linked plasma and myriad broadsides.

I'm not doing anything wrong, it's just that a small handful of S6 shots have a very hard time killing 3 things with 5 wounds and T7. Then you've got any elite fexes they may bring, and of course the all important flyrant. Tau's only reliable MC hunters are plasma and railguns, and when you're facing T7, that drops to railguns only. Unless you can afford 9 broadsides with targetting arrays (720pts) on top of anything else, you're going to struggle. It's not easy easy as you make it out to be, at least marine plasma is S7, and they have more things that are capable of scoring wounds and ripping through armour saves.

At 1.5k, a Nid army can field 3 carnifexes (Carnifii?) with two sets of talons, reinforced chitin, bonded exoskeleton and regeneration for 500pts, that leaves 1000pts dedicated to anything else, be it outlfanking stealers, a flyrant or w/e. At 1.5k My balanced list has 5 crisis suits, 2 hammerheads and a broadside, plus 4 squads of fire warriors and two squads of pathfinders. There is no way in hell i'm getting through those 3 fexes before they hit my lines. If he opted for outlfanking stealers too, then i've got those to worry about. If he took a flyrant, i've got that to worry about. I can't put enough firepower into blasting away troops and stopping TMCs from reaching my lines at the same time.

Caanos
26-11-2009, 22:38
I find that statement false. An AV13 vehicle only gets penned on a 5+ against a S9 weapon. Whereas, that same S9 only needs a 2+ to hit T7. In addition, S4 can still wound a T7 creature, while it cannot harm above AV10.

That aside, my friends hate Tyranids for their horde abilities. My one friend has actually said (jokingly) that he won't face my 'Nids with his Tau till he gets a new book. And I play that horde style.

IAMNOTHERE
26-11-2009, 22:46
I think you're seeing a very dark side and have been hit by "the fear". In your mind you've already lost when those units hit the table.

Your basic fire warrior is capeable of wounding the fex at 30". After that it's all about concentrating your fire.

I would take a serious look at army build if I couldn't put 5 wounds a turn out.

Agnar the Howler
26-11-2009, 23:00
I think you're seeing a very dark side and have been hit by "the fear". In your mind you've already lost when those units hit the table.

Your basic fire warrior is capeable of wounding the fex at 30". After that it's all about concentrating your fire.

I would take a serious look at army build if I couldn't put 5 wounds a turn out.

2 squads of 8 and 2 squads of 10 hitting fexes on 4s and wounding them on 6s with a 3+ (or 2+ depending on if they took EC) save? You'll be lucky to get 1 or 2 wounds on a fex per turn. But then what is shooting at everything else? Yes I can take down 5 wounds per turn, but what about the other 1000 points? They carry on unmolested. "The fear" makes you shoot everything you have at the fexes, which means that everything else waltzes across and murders you. Ignoring the fexes means that by the time you've dealt with the genestealers and whatnot, you've got 3 beasts at your door and no way of downing them all.

CommDante
26-11-2009, 23:27
I do remember 2nd edition when Tyranids were pretty feared (afaik not called beardy, just "a force to be reckoned with"). Since then I hardly heard of anyone playing or fearing them. From what I heard on the interwebs, 'nidZilla was rather dull ... and to me hardly sounded like what Tyranids shoud be: a massive swarm army. I always did fear a good list though, but not in a way as it being cheesy orso. Just because it was so different from the (then flooded) space marine/Meq armies. Nowadays it's more about coversaves etc, so most armies bring flamers anyway. Even though I've got a lot of Orks (2nd ed and 5th ed starter deals)", I think that 'nids should be even more swarming.

I feel that they should receive a good boost, were it only to keep tournament lists more on their toes instead of being able to be cheesy/beardy whatever. Imo Tyranids was the "weird one" which would inbalance on everything/everyone what people were expecting and thus bringing balance to the force...err, balance to the game. A lot of the "unbalanced lists" seem to be good against anything ... I hope Tyranids will unbalance those lists and make more general lists "better". In general: I think the new codexes are pretty nice with having a lot of power in every list, but I also think that 2 years waiting for the "left behind"-codexes to be updates is way too long. I mean, DE is still from 3rd ed iirc and Tyranids had a 4th ed if not mistaken. Oh well, I started with Blood Angels back in 2nd ed (due fluff ... I didn't even know they were considered "beardy" back then), but hardly touched them. That "2008"-codex was soo full of holes, can't even put 8 termies in a landraider eg. Anywho, I think they should have done Necrons or Dark Eldar before Blood Angels ... BA can be played using the Space Marine codex if wanted to be, but DE and Necrons are SOOO old.


LOL, sorry for my rambling. I hope the new Tyranids Codex will put the "world upside down", but in a way it has choices. As in, not being forced to play 'nidzilla orso when one feels like winning ones in a while. Armies should have options on playstyle, besides fighting the boredom of using the same list all the time, to keep other players on their toes.

Angelwing
27-11-2009, 00:21
Well, you could one-shot a Carnifex with a Lascannon and if you got through the armour, you'd usually one-shot it with a Multmelta (2D12 damage).

That said, people probably hate Nidzilla, but even that is more fun than playing against Nids in 2nd edition could have ever been. Nids used to be the one army that I never had fun against since they screwed around with too many rules (like their equivalent to strategy cards that was usually much better than strategy cards and the ridiculous effect some of their guns had - Strangleweb and Barbed Strangler my ***).


Going to have to disagree here. 2nd edition nids did provide quite a few exceptions to the normal rules, but they often didn't come into play. The disruption tables (strategy card equivalent) very often didn't work or do anything significant. In fact one of the character table results worked against the tyranids!
Tyranids also had one of the most difficult missions (tyranid attack) and had less missions available than other armies.
Guns: the strangleweb was a flame template weapon and therefore short ranged. I think what most vexed you was the amount of die rolls required (trap tests, escape tests, wounded etc). The barbed strangler actually had to wound and get through the armour before it entangled stuff (it was only S4). Models in the way were only caught on a 4+, then had to face the strength test (which on 2D6 they are likely to fail). I don't recall a strangler go off in any of my games. It had the potential to win the game, but the odds were stacked very highly against it.

As for mucking about with the rules, every army in 2nd ed had units, rules and wargear that did this.

Anyhow, all the nasty stuff in the tyranid army was vulnerable to the first point you made.

Back on topic, my personal feeling for any anti tyranid thoughts are that no one likes facing a living carpet of clawed fiends, and they get anxious when the horde gets closer to their lines. I suspect though that they tend to forget the other 50% of games when the carnifex is booted to death by guardsmen, the hive tyrant gets vaporised before it moves, the zoanthrope warp blast misses yet again and the gaunts run off. :cries:

IcedAnimals
27-11-2009, 00:41
Tau have a hard time dealing with nids. There is no question about that. Do I want nids nerfed? not really. But I do have anti tyranid sentiment. They are my least favorite army and I will never collect them HOWEVER they are my favorite army to kill. And that is in all things not just the board game. Playing DoW2 for example, stomping those bugs is far more entertaining than killing eldar.

As someone who enjoys the background aspect of the game I can not get behind a mindless swarm with no fluff at all. They have no goals no ideals no reason to exist. You can not write an interesting story about them the story will always go to the people fighting them.

big squig
27-11-2009, 00:46
I don't get it either. I'd say nids are easily one of the weakest codexs out now. They don't need a nerf, they need a fix. Sure, players can take way too many carnifexs and feeder tendrils are only a point (two thing I hope they change) but the rest of the book is utter trash. Everything is too expensive or doesn't do its job.

Bloodknight
27-11-2009, 01:02
@Angelwing: I've always been a guard player so all that weak stuff they could roll up actually worked (like that creature that showed up inside tanks and tried to kill the crew - which pretty often worked in a Leman Russ); I also lost a lot of guys to barbed stranglers.

@big squig: I'll sign that.

DuskRaider
27-11-2009, 02:52
Stealers are however, fragile and expensive when upgraded.

They are meant to be contenders as the best (non-IC) CC fighters in the game.

Next time Stealer annoy you compare the amount of casualites you have done to the Nid army.

Good point. It's quite annoying when I play a 500 point game or so, I may have 32 Berserkers of Khorne and I'm outnumbered literally 2:1 by Stealers. Bad day, man.

That's ok, though. I think my Orks will handle Nids quite well, new or old. 45 Burna Boyz + Nids = Kentucky Fried Bug Army

AlmightyNocturnus
27-11-2009, 03:06
Hate Nidzilla (especially 6 MCs in a 1500 point game), but I love Tyrands. The new Codex could be the final straw that breaks the back of my resistance...I may just have to make an army of them. As others have said, if the Tyranids become more properly "horde-like" with waves of cheap guants - and these builds somehow replace all of the "6 MCs in a 1500-point game" builds I alway see - then I will officially "love" Tyranids, not "hate".

Almighty Nocturnus

CKO
27-11-2009, 03:16
I trust Robbin when it comes to writing codexes, they will become more swarm like I see a major stat decrease for the carnifex so you can field more, this will also make the new unit more godly.

The thing to fear is the psychic abilities of the tyranids.

guillimansknight
27-11-2009, 03:19
Stealers

Just ruin the game ...


People say you can beat nids alright but you have to design your list to only kill nids

big squig
27-11-2009, 04:35
I don't like the idea of making the carnifex any weaker than it already is. It's already Ws3, 2 attacks and I2. Really, carnifexs should be freaking monsters and they should be pricey. They're supposed to rival terminators in the armor department and rip apart anything they touch. We don't need weaker carnifexs, we need less of them ...and they need to be close combat oriented, not shooting oriented.

DuskRaider
27-11-2009, 04:36
I don't like the idea of making the carnifex any weaker than it already is. It's already Ws3, 2 attacks and I2. Really, carnifexs should be freaking monsters and they should be pricey. They're supposed to rival terminators in the armor department and rip apart anything they touch. We don't need weaker carnifexs, we need less of them ...and they need to be close combat oriented, not shooting oriented.

Agreed. I don't mind if Carnifexes get a bit of a boost, but no one should be able to field 6+. 5 wounds is a bit ridiculous, too. I think 4 does the job well, but that's just me...

big squig
27-11-2009, 04:42
I also don't see what the issue with genestealers is. They kinda suck right now. The sole positive thing about them is that feeder tendrils are only a point, which should be taken away. But they are just too expensive for what little damage they do. After even one basic biomorph you can be paying upwards of 20pts a model. They are supposed to be the number one close combat unit in the game and right now I would consider Berzerkers, Ork Boyz, Blood Claws, and Grey Hunters all much more capable in combat.

Anything that get's touched by a genestealer (sans a terminator) should be as good as dead. The idea is to keep them from touching you. They should be ultra nasty in combat, but only slightly less fragile than a guant.

Marrak
27-11-2009, 05:09
Alright, I'm not sure how many points some of you folks are playing at, but I feel a need to clear some air about some misconceptions about Fexes and Stealers in the current game.

First off, if someone has a Carnifex with T7, W5, and Regen... then he's already close to doubled the points of his carnifex before he's even bought weapons. If he takes any other options, like the increased save, then this goes even higher. To continue on, to take 3 of these (the max since I assure you they're not going to make the elite cut of 115pts) means that he has precious few points left for his HQ and other units, meaning you have an opponent who's banking on you either ignoring these things or, worse for you, focusing your attention rather than wiping out his very limited troop or synapse options. This is, of course, depending on the point level you're playing at, but the usual idea for Carnifex use is to keep em focused on what you want em to do, and keep em cheap. Also, nids aren't known for the tremendous range their guns offer, while I'm not saying some armies like tau won't have issues with em, they can certainly pour their fire onto them before they reach optimum range.

Oh, and for those of you who say a MC is more resilient than a vehicle, let me know the next time you lose a vehicle to a S3 shot, okay? :D It's comparing a rather juicy apple to a very nice orange.

As for Stealers, they suffer from an abysmal save unless you take a rather pricey upgrade. And overall they do have a higher weapon skill than most other CC specialists, but fewer attacks standard. Also the rending change hurt their damage capacity tremendously from where it was in 4th. And yes, having implant attack is nasty... if the stealers go after multi-wound models, which is a rather short list for most armies. Also taking Implant attack prevents the one absolutely needed biomorph in the realms of 5th ed: Flesh hooks. Without those you'll find even basic troops can ruin a genestealer charge if those troops are sitting behind a fence.

Most of the fear of Tyranids "killer units" is simply lack of experience or hearing horror stories of neigh-invulnerable Carnifexes laughing hysterically as they flip tanks and troops aside without taking a wound, and squads of genestealers murdering their way through enemy troops that outnumber them countless to 1.

It's huge exaggerations that do not reflect average gameplay. Do strange and cool things happen at times? Absolutely. I've also seen a single tactical marine destroy 3 raveners and a lictor in CC. Should it have happened? No. Does it happen all the time? Well let's just say I don't cower from charging tac squads. :P

People tend to overreact, and there's often a strong case of "that's something I don't have" on the internet (and with gamers in general I've noticed). The average nid hate stems from a lot of this, with people feeling their army or unit should be the best at a certain task. Fluffwise, Carnifex have always been described as giant monstrosities that were hard to bring down, and stealers have always been up there in the ranks of the top CC fighters in 40k. To keep the bandwagon on nid fluff, Lictors used to be able to murder most ICs without breaking a sweat; I've lost more than 1 to being beaten to death with rifle stocks from firewarriors or guardsmen. :P On the charge no less. It's become a joke among the gaming store I go to that lictors look at tau as an excellent test of their fighting ability. ;)

Cognitave
27-11-2009, 05:11
Agreed. I don't mind if Carnifexes get a bit of a boost, but no one should be able to field 6+. 5 wounds is a bit ridiculous, too. I think 4 does the job well, but that's just me...

Same. An increase in natural initiative and some better shooting power for tanks would be nice. Tyranids definitely do need help beating the mech lists, but I don't find lists that field 6 carnifexes very fluffy or fun to play against.

ReveredChaplainDrake
27-11-2009, 06:24
I just want to point out that saying that Tau have problems with the Tyranids says more about the Tau than it says about the Tyranids. I've long-held that the Tau have a pretty crappy codex (at least in terms of external balance; internally, everybody seems to suck equally), maybe even worse than Necrons due to their 5th edition faux-mobility, undesirable Troops choices, and simply not being prepared for the 5th edition metagame. (Conversely, Dark Eldar do the 5th ed game far better, even unto cheese, than most of the relic codecies do.)

Tyranids and Tau have very similar issues. Both were old 4th edition codecies designed with the expectation that 4th edition would last a lot longer than it did. Thus, both suffered greatly at the hands of the abrupt edition change. Both are one-track armies that were supposed to do one thing very well (Tau with shooting / Tyranids with CC). Both armies were nerfed at these more traditional roles by 5th edition changes (Cover improvements for Tau / No Retreat for Tyranids). Both armies were further outclassed in their respective specialties by the codecies that came after them (Tau by Eldar mobility, then IG firepower / Tyranids by Chaos MCs, then Ork hordes). Both armies really only have one good schtick going for them at the moment (Airforce + Railspam for Tau / Stealerzilla for Tyranids). And thus, both armies need to be upgraded, pretty much for the exact same reasons. If anything, Tyranid and Tau players should be empathizing with one another, not complaining about one getting a Codex first.

I must confess though. As a Hive Mind first and an emissary of the Greater Good second (well fourth; servant of the Ruinous Powers second, champion of Sigismund third, and then emissary of the Greater Good), I must admit that, were the shoe on the other foot, I would've felt a bit more shafted. To be honest, (1) Tyranid needed it after the Ork Codex basically diagrammed the myriad of reasons that Gaunts are shafted by 5th, and (2) Tau are one of those "screw the rulebook, I have codex _____" kinds of armies that you really want GW to take their time on and do them right. Rushing the Tau would only result in a poorly balanced codex, CSM-grade fluff, and no new XV-8 Crisis Suit models a la Forge World.

IAMNOTHERE
27-11-2009, 09:21
I think you're going to be dissapointed if you expect nid players to field less 'fexs, the rumors are more.

I'd like to see a greater emphesis on warriors, 5th ed gave them a boost now a new codex should make them better.

Murphy's law
27-11-2009, 09:42
I 100% agree with Marrak.

I would like to state the Tyranids codex should be hard as nails.
The tyranid army is one big eating machine. It's a tyranids soul purpose and it should be outstanding in just doing that.
Tyranid army's should be feared. Their lack of background should add to this.
Every race should be frightened(well maybe orks shouldn't^^), because there's no negotiations, there's no surrender.
It's you or them. It's more likely going to be you...

Kriegfreak
27-11-2009, 09:51
Glad they are getting a new codex, just find them to be utterly boring.

Occulto
27-11-2009, 10:39
When I think Nids, I think horde and the most entertaining games (win or lose) have always been against horde armies.

I've always seen Nidzilla as being like Armoured Company - fun to play every now and then, but gets stale if that's the only army that comes out of the codex.

Bunnahabhain
27-11-2009, 11:04
Occulto has it right there.

It's boring to face the same army all the time, and it is boring to face armies consisting of multiple identical units.

Too many nid armies rely on multiple carnifexes, so get caught by both of these. Then add in a perfectly justified dislike of MCs (vehicles and MCs should use the same rules set) and you have a good basis for widespread dislike of them.

polymphus
27-11-2009, 11:08
I've not heard any anti-tyranid sentiment. Could you direct us to some threads with it in? I for one am considering grabbing 1000-1750pts-ish, although that'll ride on if the rumour about the Trygon also being able to be made into a malanthrope plays out. That, or being allowed lots of zoanthropes. My floating brain army will be complete! Forth my minions! Ahaha! AHAHAHA! MWAHAHAHAHA!

*cough*

Uh, sorry about that. Anyway.

I think the thing a lot of people are missing about the more carnifexes thing is that their price remains the same. Do people take 9 russes? No. The option's there, but it costs so many bloody points that it's just not worth it. Carnifexes with all their lovely biomorph upgrades I can imagine being even worse. The rumour mill seems to think they're going to be able to be squadroned, which means only that one could have say, 4 HS carnifexes, a unit of zoanthropes and save their elites for warriors. It might play hell with wound allocation, but this is the bloke who did the IG book, so I trust him to do a good job.

feelnopain666
27-11-2009, 11:12
The only thing I dont like in a new nid codex, is because they have been updated in 4th edition. There's 3 factions that need a update more urgently, but no! "Lets make a new nid codex, because they sell better." Thats my only complain.

Gandair
27-11-2009, 11:21
Tyranids are the army that is specialized.

We're specialized? Out only specialist units are genies and lictors. Everything outside of them can be ranged, melee, or both. Bugs are a very modular army that can bend to fill whichever role is desired. Tyranids need a bit of help as we're suffering from "No Retreat" and the new glancing rules. Overall I feel the army is on the level.

I see a lot of people screaming about genies needing to be elite and people talking about how melee fexes are out anti-tank. Anyone who plays bugs know genies have a huge weakness with a small squad size and no ranged weapon. Fexes don't have fleet so they need a gun as they move upfield to keep the tank from moving so they can catch it. A player who doesn't want a tank melee'd by a fex simply needs to move it 12 one time before the fex is at the 18-12 range and it messes up the fex for another turn or two. Genies are countered by not standing near a board edge against bugs like an idiot. Charge denial can hurt them too if you're a marine player.

So what's the problem? I play bugs and people complain about bugs and I just don't get it. I run nidzilla, the bugs get focus fired one at a time until they're gone and my minimal genies are shot to death by their numerous troops. People complain about genestealers outflanking. Why are you sitting that close to the table edge? Those are the two big tricks of bugs and they're both easily countered. Smart bug players will arrange situations that back you up against that table edge, and allow that melee fex or tyrant to get over to that vehicle, but we have to set those up with unit placement and lucky can't move/immobilized results. We also rely a bit on our opponents to overlook that we have genies in reserve on a late turn simple because they see the bulk of the army getting close.

These same things are what make winners and losers what they are in a game. We bugs gamble on oversight and luck in current edition because the swam is so easily defeated unless we really run full swarm which is unwieldy on the table since it has 192 gaunts.

Thinking about it now did you mean we specialize overall for the list in a CC, ranged, or swarm manner? I myself don't understand the hate, I play bugs, I watch videos, I read about bugs, and am otherwise learning all I can. It's just whenever I play against someone else they seem to know how to counter the type of bugs I'm using.

Murphy's law
27-11-2009, 11:24
Occulto has it right there.

It's boring to face the same army all the time, and it is boring to face armies consisting of multiple identical units.

Too many nid armies rely on multiple carnifexes, so get caught by both of these. Then add in a perfectly justified dislike of MCs (vehicles and MCs should use the same rules set) and you have a good basis for widespread dislike of them.

Vehicles and MC's should use the same rules set???

This is completely ridiculous.

Using lot's of carnifexes is logic.
They are the much needed heavy support because most units are very bad and don't deliver the punch you would expect.

Murphy's law
27-11-2009, 11:31
The only thing I dont like in a new nid codex, is because they have been updated in 4th edition. There's 3 factions that need a update more urgently, but no! "Lets make a new nid codex, because they sell better." Thats my only complain.

I can't imagine why you wouldn't like to see a new Nids codex.
Yeah, sure, i want those other army's to get new codexes aswell, but i don't see why i shouldn't like a new Nids codex.

Every 4th edition and older edition codex should get a new one.

Karhedron
27-11-2009, 11:31
I am quite looking forward to the new Nid codex. Most of the players in my local gaming group play Marines or Orcs. Hopefully a good Nid dex will increase the variety and make for some more interesting games. I accept I will probably get a few whuppings in the process but that is all part of the fun.

Occulto
27-11-2009, 11:41
Using lot's of carnifexes is logic.
They are the much needed heavy support because most units are very bad and don't deliver the punch you would expect.

Which is why the codex needed redoing. :rolleyes:

This has nothing to do with whether it's possible to beat nids or not - I hope you're aware it's possible to offer criticism for reasons other than: "waaah, I can't beat this army!!!!!" :cries:

The fact the Nidzilla build has been considered the only "viable" list by so many people for so long suggests a glaring problem. The codex produces lists that don't reflect the fluff of the endless horde of critters overrunning the galaxy.

Now if people are talking about bumping up the 90% of the codex that's considered crap, then logically there should be some kind of reduction to the bits currently considered the best. (Otherwise the next round of codex creep has just rolled around)

The problem is, people seem to view any reduction in ability as a "nerf."

genestealer_baldric
27-11-2009, 11:42
I don't like the idea of making the carnifex any weaker than it already is. It's already Ws3, 2 attacks and I2. Really, carnifexs should be freaking monsters and they should be pricey. They're supposed to rival terminators in the armor department and rip apart anything they touch. We don't need weaker carnifexs, we need less of them ...and they need to be close combat oriented, not shooting oriented.

is it too late to get you to write the codex???

oCoYoRoAoKo
27-11-2009, 11:59
I for one am looking foreward to the new nid book. Though i have played with quite a bit nidzilla (though only 6 TMCs and not the max 8 ~ i love my zoanthropes and broodlord too much), i will never forget the days of my swarm list. Personally, i dont mind fielding other units that arent carnifex but they have to be worth the points. At the moment in Elites we can take wither a. a 113 point devourer fex or b. a unit of overpriced warriors/lictors. Make warriors either better or cheaper, and ill use them over the fex. simple.

Also, i dont know where the image of tyranids being an all CC army came about from. Sure they have always been about short-ranged killing, but not all CC. After all, in the book there are only a small number of dedicated cc units (stealers, horms, lictor ~ but he's more disruption, and ravs). the rest are actually decent short-ranged firepower specialists. Even the basic gaunt can be quite nasty with either a s4 reroll wounds or s3 reroll hits ranged weapon. Looking at orks, they are also widely seen as a mostly assault force but their shooting can be devastating.

So my vision for the army => one of the best armies out there in the 0-18 inch range category, Either by volume of firepower or attacks.

Cy.

Murphy's law
27-11-2009, 12:24
Which is why the codex needed redoing. :rolleyes:

This has nothing to do with whether it's possible to beat nids or not - I hope you're aware it's possible to offer criticism for reasons other than: "waaah, I can't beat this army!!!!!" :cries:

The fact the Nidzilla build has been considered the only "viable" list by so many people for so long suggests a glaring problem. The codex produces lists that don't reflect the fluff of the endless horde of critters overrunning the galaxy.

Now if people are talking about bumping up the 90% of the codex that's considered crap, then logically there should be some kind of reduction to the bits currently considered the best. (Otherwise the next round of codex creep has just rolled around)

The problem is, people seem to view any reduction in ability as a "nerf."

Yes...reduction in ability IS a nerf.
And no, because you make units better, it doesn't mean you have to make other units weaker, if they weren't overpowered in the first place.
And Carnifexes aren't overpowered.

WH40KAj
27-11-2009, 12:30
I feel a lot of people in here see it as we take MCs on purpose O_o ...The fact is (bar Tyrants I do take them over broodlord) theres currently just nothing really that can perform in that codex as well as the carnifex, tyrant, genestealer and zoanthrope. Broodlord and gaunts are reasonable if i'm stretching it.
Everything else is overcosted or really really poor on the tabletop.

Like I wanted to add some extra cc ability, but I already had an outflanking stealer squad (which i find tactically too easy btw).
I tried raveners cause cc warriors are too slow and cost more than a ravener which is better in cc. Raveners can't have assault grenades...and cost as much as a thunderwolf more less.
So they were out, and I looked at lictors. One costs two raveners and the lictor just died horribly and inflict a wound 1/6 of the time on themselves atm.
I had two tyrants running devourers, so I had left more stealers (ain't gonna happen) OR hormagaunts. Hormagaunts can't climb ruins (oh and neither can raveners) and die to bolter fire and you guessed it...don't have assault grenades as standard so if i up their initiative have to take flesh hooks... oh joy.
Then i looked at the carnifex, i can reduce your attacks get 3 per turn at str10 and hit WS4 on 3's. I can be T7 and have 5wounds with a 2+ save. I can get all this for about the same cost as a brood and cheaper than 3 lictors... and it performs marvellously. So I run two heavy cc fexes.
I do feel based on what I put above that I was somewhat forced to do it though. And I'm a good Tyranid, i run them and 2 tyrants. Totalling 4MCs. Apparently thats Nidzilla as well? Well then I guess I am, but not particularlly through choice.
Here's the bottom line for me right now...
I will go back to swarming in a heartbeat (as it should be) the day that swarm can munch the beloved rhino rush like butter...
Until then, i'll stick to know what works and that carnifices and Tyrants. Sorry.

genestealer_baldric
27-11-2009, 12:42
I will go back to swarming in a heartbeat (as it should be) the day that swarm can munch the beloved rhino rush like butter...
Until then, i'll stick to know what works and that carnifices and Tyrants. Sorry.

Dont say sorry for the truth.

and i want to run my swarms again
:D

Occulto
27-11-2009, 12:44
Yes...reduction in ability IS a nerf.
And no, because you make units better, it doesn't mean you have to make other units weaker, if they weren't overpowered in the first place.
And Carnifexes aren't overpowered.

Reducing something so that it becomes nigh on useless is a nerf.

You know, nerf weapons that are incapable of harming a small child because they're made of squishy soft foam? That's the sort of thing nerf refers to, not a catch-all phrase for anything that makes your life slightly more difficult.

When rending changed, it did not "nerf" genestealers. It simply meant they could no longer chomp through every vehicle in the game with with laughable ease.

Shades of grey.

Murphy's law
27-11-2009, 12:59
Reducing something so that it becomes nigh on useless is a nerf.

You know, nerf weapons that are incapable of harming a small child because they're made of squishy soft foam? That's the sort of thing nerf refers to, not a catch-all phrase for anything that makes your life slightly more difficult.

When rending changed, it did not "nerf" genestealers. It simply meant they could no longer chomp through every vehicle in the game with with laughable ease.

Shades of grey.

When rending changed, it did nerf genestealers.
When wound allocation showed up, it did nerf rending and genestealers.

Genestealers can still chomp through every vehicle with the exeption of landraiders and monoliths with laughable ease.
And that's the way it should be because nids don't have meltaguns, remember?

HerrDusty
27-11-2009, 13:54
The only thing I don't like about Tyranids is the blanket immunity to Instant Death and not-quite-Fearless-but-still-fearless leadership nonsense they get from Synapse. If automatically passing morale tests didn't trigger No Retreat wounds like it does in 5th, I'd probably despise Synapse, rather than just disliking it.

Other than that, I like the Tyranids, they are an interesting army with some fun looking units. I don't play them myself, but I've had a good read through the codex, and I quite like it. I'll probably read the new one as well, but I don't plan to collect them, I like my huge guns and power pants too much.

Souleater
27-11-2009, 13:59
Nid players didn't ask for the ID immunity. IIRC what most asked for was the return of T5 to the midrange nids as they had had in 2nd Ed.

As to Nids being Fearless...I'm not sure I understand your dislike of Synape. Are you saying that Nids should not be fearless?

Running into the enemy guns - and taking lots of casualites - but killing stuff in HTH is part of the Nid feel. If it were removed then I think it would remove a lot of flavour from them.

My apologies if I have misundertood you.

Murphy's law
27-11-2009, 14:05
If orks can be fearless in larger numbers, then sure hell Tyranids can!
They are born for 3 purposes, kill,kill,kill.
Being fearless is obvious.

feelnopain666
27-11-2009, 15:09
I can't imagine why you wouldn't like to see a new Nids codex.
Notice that I'm not againt a new nid codex. I just say that there's 4 factions that need a upgrade more urgently than nids.
If you look at the releases they were almost all of 3rd:
-Eldar
-CSM
-Orks
-SM (every new edition, so doesnt count)
-IG
-Space wolfs

but all of the sudden, they stop updating 3rd edition codex, and instead get back to nids (4th edition). WH, DH, necrons and Dark Eldar are still wainting.

Bolter Bait
27-11-2009, 15:35
The updating to Nids caught me a little by surprise too. I wasn't expecting it for another year or so. However, it may be that with the changes between 5th and 4th coupled with a general popularity of Tyranids that GW felt "it was time."

As for anti-Tyranid sentiment? *shrugs* We're an army that as of right now has blanket Fearless and Eternal Warrior. That's something to be envied I guess. We also rely heavily on MCs while others rely on vehicles, which arguably, are both easier and harder to bring down than a MC. Many players remember vividly the one time their dreadnought was destroyed by a single starcannon shot but conveniently forget the 35 other times the same starcannon did something else entirely, or even nothing at all. Or that vehicles can often take an extra gun to be destroyed, giving them effectively an extra wound for 5 pts, while a Carnifex's extra costs 3 times as much and doesn't shoot back.

Legionary
27-11-2009, 15:38
The biggest reason people dislike Tyranids is Nidzilla. Not much more to add.

mattschuur
27-11-2009, 15:50
I don't hate nids. Some of my favorite games in 3rd and 4th was my orks (crappy dex and all) against Horde Nids. Nobody here has said they hate Nids, but some have said they hate Nidzilla, and I do too.

Where I play we don't have pre-set games, we have league's with random opponents, thus you can't create tailored lists. Sure, I agree Nidzilla is easy to face if you gear your army to face it, but that's true with everything. However, if your not geared to face it, it becomes 10 times harder to play.

My definition of Nidzilla is 6 carnifexes, the 3 elites are gun fexes (either Barbed strangler or double TL devourer) and 3 Heavy carnifexes with Barbed strangler or TL Devourer and a few other upgrades. Combine those with 2 Tyrants, the 2+ 6++ Implant attack fly tyrant and the venom cannon bunker tyrant with 3 guard. Then depending on points either two small squads of gaunts or 2 flanking squads of genestealers.

So, what do I want changed? I want Nidzilla limited. Basically, take away the Elite fex option, give carnifexes a slight points increase, take away some of the bio-morphs (I think this will happen across the codex) but also improve basic stats. Example, I believe they should be WS 4, with at least 3 attacks at I 2 or 3. I don't want fexes nerfed but a 116 point T 6, 4 wound, 3+ save MC with effectively a Battle cannon is a bit to much, especially when there's 6 of them coming at you.

Genestealers, well I believe they should obviously be readjusted. They should have 4+ saves base, a slight points decrease and lose the only thing I don't like about them, the 1 point preferred enemy.

The Nid dex should improve gaunts, warriors, thropes, stealers, ravenors, Lictors, bio-vores and adjust their points costs while restructuring fexes and tyrants. Nerf? No. But make Nidzilla a more legitimate option against opposing balanced lists. An old saying i've heard around my store is, 'If you have to tailor to beat it, it's not worth playing it.'

matt schuur

HsojVvad
27-11-2009, 16:12
@ mattschuur, guess you might get your wish, no more Elite 'Fexes, but if the rumour is true, you might get 9 HS 'Fexes now. Becarefull for what you wish for. Just curious, what army do you play that you have to hate having Elite 'Fexes?

MegaPope
27-11-2009, 17:58
The biggest reason people dislike Tyranids is Nidzilla. Not much more to add.

This. It's certainly the reason I don't like them - and it isn't even that they're Nids. It's the whole Monstrous Creature overload that's annoying. Nids only come up so often because they are the army that epitomises MCs.

So, really, it's not so much Nids that people don't like, it's Monstrous Creatures, especially in large numbers - Iyanden Eldar stuffed full of Wraithlords under the older CE codex were no better. There's just no joy at all in fighting the things en masse - it's boring and soul destroying.

I really can't see MC 'broods' happening without some serious alterations - they'll either be so weak they'll melt away to massed lasguns, or so costly that you'll never see them fielded at all.

HerrDusty
27-11-2009, 18:36
Nid players didn't ask for the ID immunity. IIRC what most asked for was the return of T5 to the midrange nids as they had had in 2nd Ed.

As to Nids being Fearless...I'm not sure I understand your dislike of Synape. Are you saying that Nids should not be fearless?

Running into the enemy guns - and taking lots of casualites - but killing stuff in HTH is part of the Nid feel. If it were removed then I think it would remove a lot of flavour from them.

My apologies if I have misundertood you.

Nid's don't actually have the Fearless USR when in Synapse range, they are just described as automatically passing all morale tests and automatically regrouping regardless of restrictions while in Synapse (which is pretty much Fearless in all but name, I know).

Because Tyranids automatically pass all morale tests while in Synapse, they take No Retreat wounds when they lose combat, just like any Fearless unit does, because of the stipulations of No Retreat. However, this is just what I think, if No Retreat didn't have the stipulation that you suffered it if you automatically passed morale tests (just if you where Fearless), then Tyranids would get around this. I actually had a friend who believed this was the case for the longest time and hated Synapse for it (I thought it for a short time too), until we checked No Retreat again. I just don't like how they aren't actually Fearless, they just have all the rules given by it, but don't have the USR, it seems like bad writing to me.

I actually dislike Synapse a lot more for the blanket immunity to ID, I don't like the idea of entire armies having Eternal Warrior (I'm not a fan of Daemons having it, although it does suit their fluff I suppose), ID isn't something that should be thrown around like candy, in my opinion. It doesn't actually affect most of the army due to being a single wound each, but I don't think every multi wound Tyranid should be immune to ID (especially Carnifexes, they are tough enough, and enough of a pain in the **** to fight as is).

I agree that giving toughness boosts to certain units would be a better way of doing it, than just blanket Eternal Warrior.

DarkstarSabre
27-11-2009, 20:08
but all of the sudden, they stop updating 3rd edition codex, and instead get back to nids (4th edition). WH, DH, necrons and Dark Eldar are still wainting.

WH and DH I believe are on the backburner for a major overhaul as they should be, considering the very core for the army is metal in both cases.

Necrons do need an overhaul. I believe they're the next 'Xenos' in line.

Dark Eldar need a complete overhaul, much like the Wood Elves did in WFB. I'd rather they come out pretty and complete than in dribs and drabs which start to show their age.

Zujara
27-11-2009, 21:07
I'm looking forward to the changes, I have well over 100 gaunts and the swarm being improved would be good motivation to finish painting them all. I do think a lot of people are worried about Nidzilla becoming stronger, never encountered anyone who complains about a swarm style army.

I hope they change the Eternal Warrior from Synapse, either by making only the synapse creature itself immune to ID or just upping the toughness on Warriors.

Murphy's law
27-11-2009, 21:07
Notice that I'm not againt a new nid codex. I just say that there's 4 factions that need a upgrade more urgently than nids.
If you look at the releases they were almost all of 3rd:
-Eldar
-CSM
-Orks
-SM (every new edition, so doesnt count)
-IG
-Space wolfs

but all of the sudden, they stop updating 3rd edition codex, and instead get back to nids (4th edition). WH, DH, necrons and Dark Eldar are still wainting.

Allright, i can see what you mean.

I'm pretty sure the army's who need the attention more will get a new codex in a reasonable time.
Let's hope.

big squig
28-11-2009, 01:19
Ok, wishlist time (hey, it happens in every thread).

Army Wide Rules: Synapse - All units within 18" of a Hive Tyrant or 12" of a Warrior or Brood Lord are fearless. (No more Eternal Warrior) Either drop Instinctive Behavior or make all nids outside synapse range Rage.

Six-limbed- All Tyranids have Fleet, Move Through Cover, and count as having Assault Grenades if they roll a 6 for difficult terrain. (Flesh Hooks are gone)

Biomorphs: Change Bio-morphs. As much as I'm used to biomorphs changing stats, and as cool as it is, I don't think it's the best approach. It's actually kind of annoying to keep track of every subtle difference in stats from game to game. When someone faces tyranids they simply never know how strong or weak anything is. It think we just need a simpler system. Make biomorphs give special rules and stop playing around with the stat lines. Example: Toxin Sacs could give poison attacks, Feeder Tedrils give Preferred Enemy, Enhanced Sense could give Acute Senses, Adrenal Glands could be Furious Charge.

In addition, all members of a brood must have the same biomorphs and bio weapons.

HQ- Hive Tyrant's should be WS7, BS3, S6, T6, W4, I7, A4, LD10 Sv. 3+.
No biomorph limits.

Brood Lord is Fine. Max two biomorphs.

Elites- Warriors should be WS4, BS3, S5, T5, W2, I5, A2, LD10, Sv. 4+ for 16pts No limit on biomorphs.

Lictors should be WS7, BS0, S6, T5, W3, I8, A4, LD10, Sv. 5+ for 80 pts. They should be held in reserves and enter play anywhere on the board freely to move and assault.

(No carnifexs in the elites section)

Troops - Genestealers should be WS6, BS0, S5, T4, W1, I6, A3, LD10, Sv. 5+ for 18pts. Max two biomorphs.

Termagaunts, Hormaguants, and Gargoyles should jut be one unit. WS4, BS3, S3, T3, I4, A1, LD5, Sv. 6+ for 4pts. Max one Biomorph. Must take one Bio-weapon (Spinfist, Fleshborer, Devourer, or Scything Talons) (may take Wings or Leaping.)

Rippers are fine

Fast - Raveners should be WS5, BS3, S5, T5, W2, I5, A3, LD5, Sv. 5+ for 30pts. No Biomoprh limits

(Tyranids need more and better fast attack units. This is the place to add new models.)

Heavy - Zoanthropes should be Ws4, BS4, S4, T4, W2, I4, A1, LD10, Sv. 2+ for 35pts

Biovores should be WS4, BS3, S4, T4, W2, I4, A1, Ld5, Sv. 5+ for 30pts

Carnifex should be WS5, BS3, S10, T7, W4, I4, A4, LD5, Sv. 2+ for 120pts. Brood size of 1-3. No biomorph limits.

Putty
28-11-2009, 02:14
The general dislike for Tyranids is understandable: most people do not know how to beat them. They see the TMCs and go," OMGWTFBBQ!?!?!". Instead of," I can divert my anti-tank power towards the TMCs."

If you didn't bring enough anti-tank in your "balanced" list, you deserve to get beaten by Tyranids, let alone Nidzilla. Furthermore, Nidzilla has now morphed into Psykic Scream variants to deter itself against assault orientated armies (SW, Orks, etc).

The lack of proper Nid rumors about the army's new/modified rules brings me to believe that GW will spring another quick one on us again. Either Nid will become totally useless in 5th Ed, (hello? assault orientated armies are essentially DEAD unless you are fielding horde + assault useless shooty spam + power klaw/weapon spam on turboboosters (coughOrksandbikelistscough) ).

Personally, as a Nid player, i DO NOT WANT Nids to be a CC orientated army. CC Carnifexes are a myth in 5th Ed. CC Carnifexes are stupidly expensive and sub-par units in 5th Ed. I am not thrilled if they are going to be field-able in broods of 3 but with CC biomorphs as standard kit (if rumors be true).

What made Nids survive the 5th Ed transition was its flexibility (Nids are more shooty now). Take away that flexibility of choosing to lean towards shooty or assault cripples the army. Hack, even making shooty an more expensive choice cripples the army because that means you lose your horde element.

Retrospectively, the rest of the army choices are crap, that is why Nid players prefer playing certain lists...

1. Gaunt spam (crap weapons, only WON is useful)

2. Warrior spam (essentially a Nid Deathwing type army with overtly expensive models with crap armor saves)

3. Gargoyles (expensive metal models with sub-par rules: meaning its a throwaway unit)

4. Raveners (they appear, try and shoot and die)

5. Biovores (i fell asleep reading the rules for this unit)

6. Broodlord (he is too fat to fleet)

7. Hormagaunts (i play 16 points for a CC model that has a crap save weeee!)

Then again, I'm hoping Mr Cruddace didn't go all fluffy and hit the codex with the fluffy nerf bat.

If that happens, I'll be stuck with playing IG for a looooooooonnnnnggggg time.

Souleater
28-11-2009, 16:42
I don't want to see Nids becoming pure CC, either. Fexes, for example have always been more useful shooting than assaulting.

I do want to see them get better in CC, but not by simply nerfing their shooting prowess into the ground.

I'd like to see a flexible balanced codex.

Murphy's law
28-11-2009, 17:49
The general dislike for Tyranids is understandable: most people do not know how to beat them. They see the TMCs and go," OMGWTFBBQ!?!?!". Instead of," I can divert my anti-tank power towards the TMCs."

If you didn't bring enough anti-tank in your "balanced" list, you deserve to get beaten by Tyranids, let alone Nidzilla. Furthermore, Nidzilla has now morphed into Psykic Scream variants to deter itself against assault orientated armies (SW, Orks, etc).

The lack of proper Nid rumors about the army's new/modified rules brings me to believe that GW will spring another quick one on us again. Either Nid will become totally useless in 5th Ed, (hello? assault orientated armies are essentially DEAD unless you are fielding horde + assault useless shooty spam + power klaw/weapon spam on turboboosters (coughOrksandbikelistscough) ).

Personally, as a Nid player, i DO NOT WANT Nids to be a CC orientated army. CC Carnifexes are a myth in 5th Ed. CC Carnifexes are stupidly expensive and sub-par units in 5th Ed. I am not thrilled if they are going to be field-able in broods of 3 but with CC biomorphs as standard kit (if rumors be true).

What made Nids survive the 5th Ed transition was its flexibility (Nids are more shooty now). Take away that flexibility of choosing to lean towards shooty or assault cripples the army. Hack, even making shooty an more expensive choice cripples the army because that means you lose your horde element.

Retrospectively, the rest of the army choices are crap, that is why Nid players prefer playing certain lists...

1. Gaunt spam (crap weapons, only WON is useful)

2. Warrior spam (essentially a Nid Deathwing type army with overtly expensive models with crap armor saves)

3. Gargoyles (expensive metal models with sub-par rules: meaning its a throwaway unit)

4. Raveners (they appear, try and shoot and die)

5. Biovores (i fell asleep reading the rules for this unit)

6. Broodlord (he is too fat to fleet)

7. Hormagaunts (i play 16 points for a CC model that has a crap save weeee!)

Then again, I'm hoping Mr Cruddace didn't go all fluffy and hit the codex with the fluffy nerf bat.

If that happens, I'll be stuck with playing IG for a looooooooonnnnnggggg time.

I DO want 'Nids to be more of a cc army then a shooting army.
And i disagree about the cc-carnifex-myth you talk about.
It's just not true.
Today we had an apocalypse battle and my carnifexes all performed (very) well. None of them have fire-arms.

Crushing claws, scything talons and tusked.
I had moments of carnifexes fighting with 9 attacks on the charge.
It's pretty expensive, but definately devastating.
Even against warp time daemonprinces they didn't perform bad.

One carnifex destroyed a landraider in 1 turn(exploded)
others fought dreadnoughts and terminators.
The point is, you have to give them sufficient upgrades for combat, otherwise they will do nothing.
I only had 3 carnifexes in this apocalypse battle, and all of them were alive at the end.
1 had zero wounds, the other 2 and the last one had 3.

But this is what i find incredibly annoying:
We had 8 carnifexes and 4 hive tyrants in 6000 points.
I really wouldn't call that over the top.
But the chaosplayers cried cheese. Like allways.

Cognitave
28-11-2009, 18:20
I think, knowing Cruddace's last piece of work, tyranids are going from one already playable and borderline amazing codex to one that's going to be even more OTT.

@big squig...
If the new book looks anything like your ideas when it comes to genestealers, warriors, and carnifexes, I'll personally go to Cruddace's house and beat him with a rolled up copy of his own book. Genestealers should not be troops and S5. Nor should they have 3 attacks naturally. It's ridiculously over the top. And a fleeting carnifex? Please, no. I think it's bad enough that GW has basically urinated on the fluff and took the "MOAR CARNIFEXZ!" stance, we don't need the rest of the army becoming "Yet another Imperial Guard..."

Deon
28-11-2009, 19:07
[QUOTE=Murphy's law;4169850]I DO want 'Nids to be more of a cc army then a shooting army.
And i disagree about the cc-carnifex-myth you talk about.
It's just not true.

i second that, i play tyranids and love them,
at 2000p I use 2 fexes,
one cc and one shooty,
and i find that my cc fex almost always earns his points,
i think the greatest power of tyranids is there flexibility,
so that you can go cc, shooty or horde, nidzilla, warrior lists,...
and i hope that they dont change this all to much.
i for my self dont use a pretty balanced list, and i have won some and lost some (last time i played a 2000p battel against space wolves and i won)
just to say nids do can be competitive without nidzilla :)

Murphy's law
28-11-2009, 19:44
I think, knowing Cruddace's last piece of work, tyranids are going from one already playable and borderline amazing codex to one that's going to be even more OTT.

@big squig...
If the new book looks anything like your ideas when it comes to genestealers, warriors, and carnifexes, I'll personally go to Cruddace's house and beat him with a rolled up copy of his own book. Genestealers should not be troops and S5. Nor should they have 3 attacks naturally. It's ridiculously over the top. And a fleeting carnifex? Please, no. I think it's bad enough that GW has basically urinated on the fluff and took the "MOAR CARNIFEXZ!" stance, we don't need the rest of the army becoming "Yet another Imperial Guard..."

What are you talking about???
Why shouldn't genestealers be troops?
They are fragile and expensive.
If Khorne berserkers, plaque marines and terminators can be troops, genestealers sure hell can.

Nothing wrong with carnifexes getting fleet. I sincerely hope this will happen.
And having a lot of carnifexes isn't unfluffy at all.

Mannimarco
28-11-2009, 19:59
having lots of fexes is indeed fluffy for a later stage invasion (3rd wave if my fluff is correct) although im not sure about giving them fleet, they dont seem the type

and we cant compare to other codex "plague marines are troops so genestealers should be troops"

Hivemind
28-11-2009, 20:24
The 10 Carnifex army is not fluffy- they aren't suppossed to be everywhere they are rare like a Tyrant. They added some fluff to sell the new Carnifexes. I hated big bugs with a passion. I have been playing since second edition and they were always a horde army until they decided they needed to sell a new model- pathetic.

Genestealers- they have been troops for the last three codexes? Why change it?

SirSnipes
28-11-2009, 20:27
they have a easy time beating marines, so people whine, they own tanks in CC, my daemons and guard dont mind, my orks hate it though:P

Deon
28-11-2009, 20:27
having lots of fexes is indeed fluffy for a later stage invasion (3rd wave if my fluff is correct) although im not sure about giving them fleet, they dont seem the type

and we cant compare to other codex "plague marines are troops so genestealers should be troops"

yes mannimarco is correct, carnifexes are not the type for fleet, it would be very good game wise but not fluff wise,
so i dont support it fully,
and genestealers should be troops,
yes they are devasteting in cc but they also die very easely to enemy guns

Souleater
28-11-2009, 20:48
Why shouldn't fexes be able to fleet? SoulGrinders are much larger and manage it.

For lower cost, CC fexes I think it could be a balanced option. But only if the number of MCs overall is reduced.

Murphy's law
28-11-2009, 20:59
The 10 Carnifex army is not fluffy- they aren't suppossed to be everywhere they are rare like a Tyrant. They added some fluff to sell the new Carnifexes. I hated big bugs with a passion. I have been playing since second edition and they were always a horde army until they decided they needed to sell a new model- pathetic.

Genestealers- they have been troops for the last three codexes? Why change it?

Do you live in the past? "they were always a horde army"...
That was ages ago.

Have you ever seen a 10 Carnifex army?
I haven't, it's illegal.

Shadowfax
28-11-2009, 21:32
The 10 Carnifex army is not fluffy- they aren't suppossed to be everywhere they are rare like a Tyrant. They added some fluff to sell the new Carnifexes. I hated big bugs with a passion. I have been playing since second edition and they were always a horde army until they decided they needed to sell a new model- pathetic.
I recently read the 2nd edition codex from front to back, and there is nothing fluff-oriented in it to suggest that Carnifexes were meant to be considered rare in that era.

In fact, there are photos in the book of multiple Carnifexes converging on single units, which calls to mind the idea of units of Carnifexes.

Frankly, I think you're pulling your claims out of thin air (or at the very least, basing them on the typical composition of a 2nd edition Tyranid armylist as you remember it, rather than any actual sources of fluff).

Cognitave
28-11-2009, 22:08
Why shouldn't fexes be able to fleet? SoulGrinders are much larger and manage it.

For lower cost, CC fexes I think it could be a balanced option. But only if the number of MCs overall is reduced.

The 6 carnifex lists are already barely manageable as is. Considering we know the Tyranid players will get more fexes, at this point, fleet isn't an option. The distance you get is invaluable when it comes to movement, making them faster is just a big slap in the face to every non-tyranid, non-TH/SS termy army.

Murphy, you obviously don't play the same game I do. Look at genestealers being S5. That's a troop choice that hits and wounds marines on 3s, attacks before them with rending, and 4 attacks on the charge. That unit can charge some Khorne Berserkers and absolutely annihilate them. For, in a unit of 10 with none of the nigh mandatory upgrades on the Berserkers, 30 points less. Let's not forget that a basic "troop" in the tyranid army has the same WS as an Eldar Autarch, Space Marine Chapter Master, and Chaos Lords. If it were "fragile", it'd be T3. Before you get on about the 5+ save, it's chitin.

Genestealers are fine as they are. Maybe a little point reduction is in order, but giving them the ability to slaughter pretty much everything in close combat only satiates codex propaganda. Considering that we know Tyranids will get more Carnifex slots, and they're already a great army, it seems like GW is basically forcing everyone to play Mechanized lists to stand a chance against them. New units, biomorphs, and some point adjustments are all that's needed (meltabombs and frag grenades would go a long way IMO...). Adding +1 to willy nilly is a bad idea, seeing as how you're coming from a house of a codex. I'm quite sure there's going to be a Fex-Wing character, and 40k is going to devolve into a Tyranid Madhouse.

Wishlisting is pointless IMO. You tyranid players got Cruddace, and knowing his past work + the codex creep, it's better for the rest of us not to know. :angel:

big squig
28-11-2009, 22:49
I think, knowing Cruddace's last piece of work, tyranids are going from one already playable and borderline amazing codex to one that's going to be even more OTT.

@big squig...
If the new book looks anything like your ideas when it comes to genestealers, warriors, and carnifexes, I'll personally go to Cruddace's house and beat him with a rolled up copy of his own book. Genestealers should not be troops and S5. Nor should they have 3 attacks naturally. It's ridiculously over the top. And a fleeting carnifex? Please, no. I think it's bad enough that GW has basically urinated on the fluff and took the "MOAR CARNIFEXZ!" stance, we don't need the rest of the army becoming "Yet another Imperial Guard..."
Carnifexs have been fast longer than they have been slow. At one time they could go 12" a turn and were I6 and WS6 with 4 attacks. The entire tyranid army is supposed to be faster than any other infantry in any other army.

Nothing in the fluff of any nid codex suggests that carnifexs are slow. Even Hive tyrants used to be nearly twice as fast as normal infantry. Both of them have gigantic legs and multiple limbs. All nids should fleet. (maybe no zoanthropes as they float).

Also, genestealers have been troops since 1st edition. They have also been the best CC troop in the game.

DuskRaider
28-11-2009, 23:54
What are you talking about???
Why shouldn't genestealers be troops?
They are fragile and expensive.
If Khorne berserkers, plaque marines and terminators can be troops, genestealers sure hell can.

Nothing wrong with carnifexes getting fleet. I sincerely hope this will happen.
And having a lot of carnifexes isn't unfluffy at all.

Don't compare Berserkers to Genestealers. Berserkers have no options (oh wait, a plasma pistol!), their stats aren't even as good UNLESS they get the charge off. I only wish I had an equivalent of Implant Attack. And Rending? Jeez, I wish my 'Zerkers had that. And let's not even talk about the fact that my Berserkers are 21 points each. And the only way they can try to move as fast is if they're in a tank, and even with that they can only assault in a 220 pt Land Raider. Let's also not forget that Genestealers can scuttle onto the board. And that their character (Broodlord) is a god in CC. So no, Genestealers are undercosted for their price, and they do in fact deserve to be thrown into the Elite pile. But hey, if you like them so much, you can take a Broodlord and use them as troops!

Another thing... Nidzilla is nasty, but it's not end all beat all. Everytime my friend fields a Nidzilla list, I just field a Daemonzilla list and wipe the floor with him :D

Murphy's law
29-11-2009, 00:05
Don't compare Berserkers to Genestealers. Berserkers have no options (oh wait, a plasma pistol!), their stats aren't even as good UNLESS they get the charge off. I only wish I had an equivalent of Implant Attack. And Rending? Jeez, I wish my 'Zerkers had that. And let's not even talk about the fact that my Berserkers are 21 points each. And the only way they can try to move as fast is if they're in a tank, and even with that they can only assault in a 220 pt Land Raider. Let's also not forget that Genestealers can scuttle onto the board. And that their character (Broodlord) is a god in CC. So no, Genestealers are undercosted for their price, and they do in fact deserve to be thrown into the Elite pile. But hey, if you like them so much, you can take a Broodlord and use them as troops!

Another thing... Nidzilla is nasty, but it's not end all beat all. Everytime my friend fields a Nidzilla list, I just field a Daemonzilla list and wipe the floor with him :D

Yeah sure, your poor berserkers. They are so weak, i feel for you.
Yeah, they have no options...oh wait, a powerfist-champion. Poor berserkers. And even their armoursave sucks.
A Broodlord is a god in combat? Yeah, he's good, but a little vulnerable to shooting...
What about the berserkers charakter...Kharn The Betrayer?
Now, THATS a god.

big squig
29-11-2009, 00:13
Don't compare Berserkers to Genestealers. Berserkers have no options (oh wait, a plasma pistol!), their stats aren't even as good UNLESS they get the charge off. I only wish I had an equivalent of Implant Attack. And Rending? Jeez, I wish my 'Zerkers had that. And let's not even talk about the fact that my Berserkers are 21 points each. And the only way they can try to move as fast is if they're in a tank, and even with that they can only assault in a 220 pt Land Raider. Let's also not forget that Genestealers can scuttle onto the board. And that their character (Broodlord) is a god in CC. So no, Genestealers are undercosted for their price, and they do in fact deserve to be thrown into the Elite pile. But hey, if you like them so much, you can take a Broodlord and use them as troops!

Another thing... Nidzilla is nasty, but it's not end all beat all. Everytime my friend fields a Nidzilla list, I just field a Daemonzilla list and wipe the floor with him :D

After the needed upgrades to make stealers even worth taking, they are more expensive than berserkers and don't have power armor, less strength, less attacks, no powerfist champ, and no rhino. One round of shooting kills off an entire 288 point brood of stealers.

Brendi
29-11-2009, 00:30
I get so sick of people claiming that MCs are sooo much harder to kill than tanks.

Can you kill a tank in one shot? Yes, yes you can.

Will you kill a tank in one shot? No, no you wonīt.

I suspect that people are experiencing the 5th ed melta-driveby or deepstrike with 2-4 meltaguns/combimeltas and whine when their landraider dies.

Guess what? If somebody does that to a fex or a tyrant they usually loose 2-3 wounds.
That means that you only need to do 1-2 more wounds which isnīt that hard.

Also, consider that melta is pretty much the only common way to reliably take out tanks and those meltas got an effective range of 6-12".
Meanwhile those lascannons/assaultcannons/plasmawhatevers that your landraiders, LMRBTs and monoliths laugh off are murdering our MCs.

Usually when I play I face down at least as many tanks (usually more) as I got MCs and those are a lot harder for me to take down than it is for my opponent to kill me.
If Iīm lucky I keep two of them from firing at me for a turn or two.
In addition to being outgunned at range, if I try to close fast my opponent will take advantage of that and rip me a new one with firedragons/meltaeverything/assaulttroops/flamers etc.

What bugs (pardon the pun :P) me the most is that tanks are either awesomesauce effective and as expensive as my MCs or you get 4 chimeras for the price of my flyrant.
And I really canīt expect to kill more than one vehicle with each of my creatures, thatīs on a good day when my carnifexes actually gets to CC ( I keep them mostly shooty, but you only need 1 hit to penetrate with a fex, still 1 pen only got 33% chance to kill something).

And then...when you hunt down that landraider/hammerhead/LMRBT and rip it apart in an explosion of fury with 1-2 wounds left from chasing it down you get Ī#%"& by either the units inside or the rest of the army now in range.


Maybe itīs the people I play with, but we are pretty competetive all around. While Iīd like to run my favourite units and have a fun game they will get stomped by any balanced 5th ed list so hard Iīd have to re-glue them.
What I think is the main problem with Nids right now, is how expensive and fragile everything is.

FotM here in southern Norway is IG, more specific either chimerameltaspam or vendettameltaspam.

Cognitave
29-11-2009, 00:56
After the needed upgrades to make stealers even worth taking, they are more expensive than berserkers and don't have power armor, less strength, less attacks, no powerfist champ, and no rhino. One round of shooting kills off an entire 288 point brood of stealers.

I think you're confusing an inherent weakness to an inherent lack of tactics. Scuttling stealers get in combat so quickly, they rarely have to endure more than 1 round of shooting. Even then, you should have cover. In my opinion, stealers need a little more...genestealer. Preferred Enemy natural and furious charge (considering pretty much everything has it nowadays...) come to mind. They need a little adjustment, not the Imperial Guard treatment, that's the last thing the game needs.

By the way, I never said genestealers shouldn't be troops, Mr. Experienced. Genestealers were so good to counteract Zoats, which sucked. Also considering the turbulent nature of the game (whatever new Ork or Chaos unit that came out in the latest WD), they were needed to help restore internal balance.

@Brendi: No one's arguing that IG aren't OTT. But the notion of "X army is really strong, so we should make Y stronger..." leaves us in the same puddle of muck Fantasy is in.

leonmallett
29-11-2009, 00:57
I think, knowing Cruddace's last piece of work, tyranids are going from one already playable and borderline amazing codex to one that's going to be even more OTT...

Just out of curiosity, why do you define Tyranids as already playable and borderline amazing - it would be interesting to hear you qualify this.

I know I don't agree, and maybe others don't either. The army was okay in 4th edition, and I feel it has suffered in 5th. Yes there are extreme options that are too effective, but that doesn't make an army already playable and borderline amazing - it just means the list is unbalanced.

Cognitave
29-11-2009, 01:10
Just out of curiosity, why do you define Tyranids as already playable and borderline amazing - it would be interesting to hear you qualify this.

I know I don't agree, and maybe others don't either. The army was okay in 4th edition, and I feel it has suffered in 5th. Yes there are extreme options that are too effective, but that doesn't make an army already playable and borderline amazing - it just means the list is unbalanced.

Compare it to the Chaos codex. It has a great power build (that also suffered with the roll-out of mechanized lists ironically), and some options that are sub-par but still easily playable. Considering what Necrons and Dark Eldar have become with age, Tyranids could have spit out into 5th a whole lot worse.

polymphus
29-11-2009, 01:41
Considering what Necrons and Dark Eldar have become with age, Tyranids could have spit out into 5th a whole lot worse.

What the Dark Eldar have become with age? Crappy model range, steep learning curve but then one of the most hilariously destructive armies in the entire game? If anything the focus on mechanisation has only made them better. Also 'these guys are worse' is not an argument for 'these guys are borderline amazing'. They're not 'borderline amazing'. They're sub-par. Just because there's worse doesn't mean they're any less bad.

big squig
29-11-2009, 01:53
Honestly, I consider tyranids, in their current form, to be easily one of the weakest codexs in the game...and I've been playing nids since 2nd ed.

Cognitave
29-11-2009, 01:55
What the Dark Eldar have become with age? Crappy model range, steep learning curve but then one of the most hilariously destructive armies in the entire game? If anything the focus on mechanisation has only made them better. Also 'these guys are worse' is not an argument for 'these guys are borderline amazing'. They're not 'borderline amazing'. They're sub-par. Just because there's worse doesn't mean they're any less bad.

Look at their evolution. Remember when it was all about wyches, shardnet/impaler with combat drugs, and an archon with combat drugs with an agonizer? Now the only list that can repeatedly earn the title of "hilariously destructive" is Dark Lance spamming. And as I recall, Dark Eldar have always been mechanized, the change from 4th to 5th with the increase in mechanized lists didn't result in any gain or loss in what the lists were capable of, just a minor reshuffle of what you played in terms of scoring units.

In the same light, I can whine about my Thousand Sons and ask why taking the weaker units in a book make my army crap. The edition change was an adapt or die circumstance, and Nidzilla made it through, taking out deathstar lists but losing to mechanized. Yes, in order to function against certain lists, you have to take certain units. Just because there's better doesn't make Tyranids the worst.. ;)

Putty
29-11-2009, 01:58
I DO want 'Nids to be more of a cc army then a shooting army.
And i disagree about the cc-carnifex-myth you talk about.
It's just not true.
Today we had an apocalypse battle and my carnifexes all performed (very) well. None of them have fire-arms.

What happens in Apocalypse games do not apply in normal ones.

polymphus
29-11-2009, 02:01
Just because there's better doesn't make Tyranids the worst. ;)

I never said that. I was challenging your assertion that they're 'borderline amazing'.


Look at their evolution. Remember when it was all about wyches, shardnet/impaler with combat drugs, and an archon with combat drugs with an agonizer? Now the only list that can repeatedly earn the title of "hilariously destructive" is Dark Lance spamming.

I've still seen Wyches, archons and the like in raiders wiping the enemy off the board before they can even blink. Just because they're not easy to use (like lance spam) doesn't mean they're not powerful.

blackroyal
29-11-2009, 02:04
Honestly, I consider tyranids, in their current form, to be easily one of the weakest codexs in the game...and I've been playing nids since 2nd ed.

I agree. With the exception of the zilla/ without number troop list I have not seen a playable nid force. My own army has been in storage basically since 5th edition came out. I refuse to use more than 3 MC's and would love to use my hormies and raveners again.

Cognitave
29-11-2009, 02:18
I never said that. I was challenging your assertion that they're 'borderline amazing'.

I've still seen Wyches, archons and the like in raiders wiping the enemy off the board before they can even blink. Just because they're not easy to use (like lance spam) doesn't mean they're not powerful.

They're borderline amazing because they possess one of the cornerstone power builds that make up the tournament circuit. They're one of the lists to beat. The reason Tyranids aren't in the Tier 1 is because, like Chaos, they're a one trick pony. If you could do a bit more, then it'd be an amazing book. In a casual game, the relative strength of your codex shouldn't matter as much as having fun does. In the same way, competitive lists (or just that game you really want to win), which is what I'm assuming we're arguing over (or we have a big misunderstanding), only the strength of the list matters. Yeah, there's a lot of useless crap, but there's some gold in that rough.

polymphus
29-11-2009, 02:21
Hmm. I'll accept that I guess. The tournament circuit down here in the South Pacific is more soft score heavy, so I've not seen Nidzilla take a tournament in a long time. I consider tournament play a different experience from normal play as well, and would argue that even though it has a capable tournament list it's still not a good book. A single powerful build doesn't compensate for having so many redundant and useless options.

Voodoo Boyz
29-11-2009, 04:17
Hearing people whine about their Nids being terrible now is almost amazing, with me just coming back to 40k.

I can't believe that in this very thread I've heard people say "they were an ok army in 4th".

No they weren't an OK army.

They were one of THE armies, you know, the army you saw at the top tables of every single tournament. Same dumb ass Shooty, Hug Cover with my MC and fire Devourers at you until you died. Towards the end, when Mech Eldar gave them good runs for their money they supplemented 8 TMC's with 100+ Gaunts to either tie up shooty armies or screen against assaulty armies.

In 5th Ed, Troops as scoring, cover not applying wholesale to MC's, and the fact that Tanks got super resilient, and Glancing 6's didn't mean every vehicle without a Holofield died meant that Nidzilla got nerfed as a super-competitive army.

If the Heavy Support Fex's could still down Tanks at range as easily as they did in 4th Ed, Nids would still be one of the best armies out there.

To hear people complain now about them being "sooo underpowered". Just, wow.

big squig
29-11-2009, 05:56
Hearing people whine about their Nids being terrible now is almost amazing, with me just coming back to 40k.

I can't believe that in this very thread I've heard people say "they were an ok army in 4th".

No they weren't an OK army.

They were one of THE armies, you know, the army you saw at the top tables of every single tournament. Same dumb ass Shooty, Hug Cover with my MC and fire Devourers at you until you died. Towards the end, when Mech Eldar gave them good runs for their money they supplemented 8 TMC's with 100+ Gaunts to either tie up shooty armies or screen against assaulty armies.

In 5th Ed, Troops as scoring, cover not applying wholesale to MC's, and the fact that Tanks got super resilient, and Glancing 6's didn't mean every vehicle without a Holofield died meant that Nidzilla got nerfed as a super-competitive army.

If the Heavy Support Fex's could still down Tanks at range as easily as they did in 4th Ed, Nids would still be one of the best armies out there.

To hear people complain now about them being "sooo underpowered". Just, wow.

I'm not complaing that nidzilla is underpowered (it's not, it's OTT). I'm complaining that a standard, by the fluff, nid army is terrible. Warriors, guants of all kinds, hormaguants, gargoyles, raveners, zoanthropes, biovores, non-flying tyrants, lictors, and standard stealers are all awful for their points cost. That's why you never see any of them.

A book that's 95% useless and 5% over powered is a book that needs fixing.

People who say nids are fine now are the same ones who say chaos is fine now just because the only capable list is two lash princes, max oblits and max plague marines.

Cognitave
29-11-2009, 06:31
People who say nids are fine now are the same ones who say chaos is fine now just because the only capable list is two lash princes, max oblits and max plague marines.

I'd QFT that.

I've never seen a Gargoyle or a ravener model not in a blister. Also, stealers need that "we know what makes you tick" feel that preferred enemy gives, without having to pay for it.

I'd like to see more than just carnifexes and genestealers, I really would.

Ozendorph
29-11-2009, 07:57
People who say nids are fine now are the same ones who say chaos is fine now just because the only capable list is two lash princes, max oblits and max plague marines.

Yep, that pretty much covers it. Great point.

Murphy's law
29-11-2009, 10:27
I'm not complaing that nidzilla is underpowered (it's not, it's OTT). I'm complaining that a standard, by the fluff, nid army is terrible. Warriors, guants of all kinds, hormaguants, gargoyles, raveners, zoanthropes, biovores, non-flying tyrants, lictors, and standard stealers are all awful for their points cost. That's why you never see any of them.

A book that's 95% useless and 5% over powered is a book that needs fixing.

People who say nids are fine now are the same ones who say chaos is fine now just because the only capable list is two lash princes, max oblits and max plague marines.

I 100% agree with this.

Murphy's law
29-11-2009, 10:32
What happens in Apocalypse games do not apply in normal ones.

Nonsense.
There were 4 players, 3000 points each.
That's not spectaculair and wasn't much different from normal 40k.

My close combat carnifexes perform very well in ordinary 40k games.

Angelwing
29-11-2009, 10:43
I'm complaining that a standard, by the fluff, nid army is terrible. Warriors, guants of all kinds, hormaguants, gargoyles, raveners, zoanthropes, biovores, non-flying tyrants, lictors, and standard stealers are all awful for their points cost. That's why you never see any of them.

A book that's 95% useless and 5% over powered is a book that needs fixing.


I think thats a bit strong. In no way would I describe any of the units in the book as 'awful for their points cost'. Plenty don't work as well as they used to due to edition change and therefore are a little overpriced now which needs fixing one way or the other, but so it goes.



I've never seen a Gargoyle or a ravener model not in a blister.
I'd like to see more than just carnifexes and genestealers, I really would.

Well next time I happen to be in your neck of the woods fancy a game? I can assure you that not all nid players only use stealers and fexes. :cool:

Deon
29-11-2009, 11:12
I can assure you that not all nid players only use stealers and fexes. :cool:

QFT, lictors and ravener can be a pain in the *** for the opponend, as for gargoyls, i dont use them because the models are a bit to expensive.
I don't say that these models dont need a fixing but but saying that they are useless an nobody uses them is a bit much imo

leonmallett
29-11-2009, 12:11
Compare it to the Chaos codex. It has a great power build (that also suffered with the roll-out of mechanized lists ironically), and some options that are sub-par but still easily playable.

If you define a list as borderline amazing based one (maybe two) 'power builds' then the list isn't amazing - instead you are looking at a limited number overpowered unit choices, and by inference a greater number of underpowered ones. That is not 'amazing' in my view - that is a skewed and imbalanced list.


Considering what Necrons and Dark Eldar have become with age, Tyranids could have spit out into 5th a whole lot worse.

Just to reiterate the point made by others you can't justify the quality based on the experience of two other old lists: ideally all ought to be on a par within the core rules iteration. There are clearly some big problems as things stand for Tyranids.

leonmallett
29-11-2009, 12:33
I think thats a bit strong. In no way would I describe any of the units in the book as 'awful for their points cost'. Plenty don't work as well as they used to due to edition change and therefore are a little overpriced now which needs fixing one way or the other, but so it goes.



Well next time I happen to be in your neck of the woods fancy a game? I can assure you that not all nid players only use stealers and fexes. :cool:

I agree that awful may be strong, but certainly overpriced/undereffective applies to a good few units: Lictors on the whole are not that effective in my view, and were not in 4th really, either. Similarly Biovores from 4th onwards, and I have felt for a long time that Warriors were overpriced (I still used them as the backbone of my army, but that is because I like the models and didn't want to go the Flying Tyrant cliche route). Warriors typically can be neutralised very effectively by an experienced player, so arguably are overpriced on the basis of the imporatance they have (Synpase) and the attention they inevitably draw, versus their effectiveness in either a ranged or close combat role. Rippers are more a means to an end rather than an effective use of a Troops slot. Hormagaunts have been overpriced since 4th edition I feel.

I'd like to see some good changes - changes that hopefully will reflect the character of the army as it is largely perceived (I think for many or most the first notion when thinking about Tyranids is the idea of a vast swarm of creatures), and Id like to see some steps away from the few over-powered options (get rid of the +1T and +1 W for Carnifexes, they should be good enough with their baseline stats in both of those, if not then then the unit is not right in some way; look at the cost of a Flying Tyrant relative to its efficiency as a unit etc).

Murphy's law
29-11-2009, 13:00
There is a lot of weak and overcosted stuff in the tyranid codex.
There are some good units, but most aren't that great.
I like hormagaunts, but they are way to expensive.

Most people i know use gaunts only for objectives or walking cover.
That's fine, but i don't think that should be their only purpose.
Every tyranid should be somehow scary, some on their own and some in large numbers.
But even hormagaunts in large quantities are pretty laughable.

Lictors are very much hit or miss. That's not the end of the world, but it would be more acceptable if they would cost something like an attackbike.

Brendi
29-11-2009, 17:00
Sorry about the rant earlier, it was late and I was just about to pop into bed.
That said my concerns werenīt aimed towards IG in particular, but any army that regularly fields 5+ vehicles.

Now, Iīd like to hear more success stories about "in-effective" nid lists.
I ran a list with
3x 16 WoN termagants
1x 12 hormagaunts
6x DS warriors
Flyrant
Walkrant, guards, VC,dev
2x Gunfex
1 lictor

And that was a cool list, untill I met somebody not totally unprepared for 64 gaunts :P

Edit: I should mention that horde lists are kinda rare here, well except for an IG player who got 250 guardsmen in 1750 points :P

Kelderaith
29-11-2009, 17:51
I'll just hop in to say my particular view on tyranids now as it is. Tyranids are not as bad as people think, but they are definately nearly all overcosted. Tyranids in 5th ed are a bit like guard were in 4th ed. They are playable, and you will win some games, but against good players, it is always a uphill struggle because 80% of the codex entries are 20 or more % overcosted (or just plain bad). Also, I just can't understand how people are still whining about Nidzilla... yes, it was very good in 4th ed (and indeed, quite over the top, played similar list 1-2 times, got bored, came back to play balanced list), but in 5th ed, it's horrible really. Dealing with slow MC, with no invulnerable, medium shooting power (because it's good anti-infantry, but more cover save means a lot worse against infantry than it was before, and they have limited if not nonexistant anti-tank firepower) is not hard. I mean, you play mechanized, you win. You don't.... well it should be a good, close-fought game.

On one last note, I just keep laughing when I hear people says that tyranids SHOULD have bad armor saves, after all, it's only chitin and exoskeletons...

Try this at home (matter of speaking of course) : pick up a bug, pretty much anything really, lift it to your height, drop it on the ground. Now, you just dropped a bug from about 100 times its height, and it will go back on its feet, and leave mostly unharmed. Try this with a human in body armor now, drop him off 600 feet in the air, and see if he goes back up on its feet, mostly unharmed ;)

Cognitave
29-11-2009, 18:18
If you define a list as borderline amazing based one (maybe two) 'power builds' then the list isn't amazing - instead you are looking at a limited number overpowered unit choices, and by inference a greater number of underpowered ones. That is not 'amazing' in my view - that is a skewed and imbalanced list.



Just to reiterate the point made by others you can't justify the quality based on the experience of two other old lists: ideally all ought to be on a par within the core rules iteration. There are clearly some big problems as things stand for Tyranids.

Go back and read. You're beating a dead horse, buddy.

EDIT:
To save you the trouble (I mean it was obviously too hard for you the first time), I was speaking purely competitively. But don't let that get in the way of your "+1 post count!!1". Stirring up threads is fun :angel:

Striker_002
29-11-2009, 18:40
Try this at home (matter of speaking of course) : pick up a bug, pretty much anything really, lift it to your height, drop it on the ground. Now, you just dropped a bug from about 100 times its height, and it will go back on its feet, and leave mostly unharmed. Try this with a human in body armor now, drop him off 600 feet in the air, and see if he goes back up on its feet, mostly unharmed ;)

That whole argument is invalid. It's not the bugs carapace that makes him survive the fall, it's his small mass. When he hits the ground his momemtum(a function of mass) is too small to do much damage. Now, Make a bug that us big as/weighs as much as a human and drop him from an equivalent height and it *will* die.

My only "anti-tyranid sentiment" is that many tyranid players want their cake and to it it too. What are nid's already good at, when taking the appropriate builds(which many players tend to do)?:
Close combat(stealers are pound for pound still one of the best close combat units in the game, regardless of the justified 5th edition nerfs)
Fast(fleet, run, outflank, a shooting army typically only gets one turn of "shooting". People say to avoid the edges of the table, but when you have to stay 18 inches away from either table edge there isn't a lot left, and you are just bunching up for easy multi-assault and barbed stranglers from the rest of the nid army. Outflanking gives your opponent a catch 22 situation.)
Anti-infantry shooting(2*TL devourers on monsterous creatures maiming squads of marines a turn. Barbed stranglers are good against hordes)
Bodies(Throw in one cheap unit of 32 without number spinegaunts, good luck capturing that objective by the nid deployment zone)

Whats weak now?
Ranged anti-tank and some overpriced units(however the exclusion of these units does not hurt a competitive nid list, since there are still competitive choices which can fulfill all the need roles)

What do some nid players want to "fix"?

Make it so nid have good ranged anti-tank! I seen many wanting weapons able to penetrate those landraiders at range! They also want to fix the underpowered units, though that is understandable.

This would leave the hypothetical new nids with what weaknesses?

None. These new nids could be kitted out to do well in whatever you felt like.

Every other army in the game has weakness such as extremely poor close combat(guard, tau), costly unspecialized units(Joe marines), bad shooting(orks can't do heavy anti-tank at range) etc. I can understand many nid builds are weak against mech, and I wouldn't see anything wrong with giving nids an autocannon equivalent to take out those lightly armored transports(but making sure they have to get up close to those heavies). However I just keep seeing nid players that want there army to be good at *everything* and that is what peeves me off.

sliganian
29-11-2009, 18:45
IMO, Nids should be fast and killy. Having said that, I also think that, imagery-wise:

Gaunts and Horms should have a save of '-'. Their job is to come on in vast numbers and die like flies to incoming fire but not care about how many have died as there are 10 more to take the place of one felled. Also should be limited biomorphs, if any. These are your assembly-line beasts. Points should adjust accordingly.

Genestealers: never better than a 5+ save. Again, fast and swift beasts should not ever have armour as good as Eldar Aspects or fully suited Fire Warriors. Keep Infiltrate or Scouting as standard kit.

Warriors: immune to instant death, multi-wound, 4+ save models with a 12" charge range with rending claws at Initiative 5 (what my friend typically runs) are frankly a pain to deal with. Not sure how to fix them, or if a fix is needed. They just annoy me . :)

Zoanthropes: remind me again why a floating bone sperm cell gets a save as good as a Terminator? Yeah....

Lictors: make them work like WHFB Fanatics or DE Assassins. Basically, they 'deploy' hidden in a unit then are revealed on the charge.

Biovores: no idea. Perhaps make them tougher and more mobile. Let them fill a sort of Heavy Flamer Sentinel / Defiler role. Not necessarily a Monstrous Creature, just something that is, say, T5, 3 wounds, has a large blast templateweapon and a heavy flamer template.

But as the book is already written, I guess I'd better stop wishlisting.

Cognitave
29-11-2009, 18:45
I'd say the anti-Tyranid mood is created by a multitude of factors. Nidzilla was a house build, easily the list to beat in 4th and early 5th. Then we add in confirmation of Tyranids being able to take even more carnifexes, and on top of it all, Cruddace is doing the book.

All we can do is cross our fingers and pray he learned his mistakes from Imperial Guard...

Kelderaith
29-11-2009, 19:10
All we can do is cross our fingers and pray he learned his mistakes from Imperial Guard...

I really like the whole Imperial guard whine haha, Imperial guard are what they are supposed to be, at last (and I don't play IG). People have been so used to see guard sucks in the last couple of years that they can't really cope with a codex that is as good as it should be. In about 7-8 games I had vs guards, I lost once, with tyranids that never fleeted more than 2 inches in 12 fleet rolls (that means, 8 1 inch fleet roll and 4 2 inches one, respectively in turn 1 and 2) coupled with horrible other dice roll and table quarter deployment. All my other games have been complete massacre, or at the very least very definite wins. Yeah the guard are stronger now, and they have the potential to be a great army, but stop hinting that they are the codex the beat atm, because they aren't... at all.

If anything, most (if not all) tyranids player await eagerly to see how he crafted our new codex as most agree that he made a wonderful job at making the IG one (2 things bother me in the whole codex: Stormstrooper, and vanquisher battletank, 2 entries on like 20-somethings makes for a very good and balanced codex).

Cognitave
29-11-2009, 19:53
Yeah the guard are stronger now, and they have the potential to be a great army, but stop hinting that they are the codex the beat atm, because they aren't... at all.


I'm still trying to figure out what to say to this. Because you couldn't be more wrong.

Brendi
29-11-2009, 21:25
My only "anti-tyranid sentiment" is that many tyranid players want their cake and to it it too. What are nid's already good at, when taking the appropriate builds(which many players tend to do)?:
Close combat(stealers are pound for pound still one of the best close combat units in the game, regardless of the justified 5th edition nerfs)

Genestealers, are indeed, good in close combat. One of the best units in the game? Not really.
They will mess up your average unit of marines/guardsmen and will hurt most things on the charge. What screws them over is their cost-effectiveness ratio.
Commonly my 192 point squad of outflanking stealers with carapace and feeder tendrils will either: a) assault something with a reasonable chance of winning or b) fail to assault anything because of wrong side, difficult terrain or poor fleet roll.
They will be destroyed by any counter-assault unit with a single flamer.

Fast(fleet, run, outflank, a shooting army typically only gets one turn of "shooting". People say to avoid the edges of the table, but when you have to stay 18 inches away from either table edge there isn't a lot left, and you are just bunching up for easy multi-assault and barbed stranglers from the rest of the nid army. Outflanking gives your opponent a catch 22 situation.)

Tyranids are not fast, in fact, Iīd say tyranids are contenders for slowest force in 40k.
Outflank does give us some "control" over our opponent, but fact is that if youīre playing on a regular 4x6 foot board you still got a 3 foot deployment zone.
I say nids are slow because our fast assault units suck except for the flyrant. And even with most of those itīs only assault thatīs fast.
Everybody can run, and most armies got at least a couple of units in transports.

Anti-infantry shooting(2*TL devourers on monsterous creatures maiming squads of marines a turn. Barbed stranglers are good against hordes)

This I agree with, our anti-infantry shooting is quite good. It did get a slight nerf with 5th ed regarding cover saves, but that really only applies vs other nids and IG.
Dakkafexes/tyrants donīt really maim squads of marines though. A tyrant kill 3 marines on average, a fex 2.

Bodies(Throw in one cheap unit of 32 without number spinegaunts, good luck capturing that objective by the nid deployment zone)


One unit of 32 WoN spinegaunts is a 256 point squad of crap.
Yes, we have WoN, but in general it ainīt that great. What peeves me the most about it is that it makes the new unit come from our tableedge ( which is stupidly awesome in capture and control) and it never does anything really worthwhile.
One way to take advantage of WoN is to only leave 1-3 gaunts that you can mop up anytime if they become a problem.
And those bodies we bring die easier than guardsmen and cost alot more points.

Whats weak now?
Ranged anti-tank and some overpriced units(however the exclusion of these units does not hurt a competitive nid list, since there are still competitive choices which can fulfill all the need roles)

I can think of two nid units that arenīt overpriced: Tyrants and Carnifexes.
As for ranged anti-tank. Itīs just really weak to the point itīs ridiculous in 5th ed.

What do some nid players want to "fix"?

Make it so nid have good ranged anti-tank! I seen many wanting weapons able to penetrate those landraiders at range! They also want to fix the underpowered units, though that is understandable.

While I cannot speak for others I know that I donīt want awesomesauce tankpenetrators. I just want to be able to field a reasonable amount of anti-transport options and a few options for heavy tanks.
Iīd also like to express that tyranids do not tear up tanks in CC.
My opponent can see that carnifex, tyrant or genestealer squad come for his tanks a turn or two in advance. This means that when (if) I get there, unless he just drove away, my unit will be thorougly hosed by other units.


This would leave the hypothetical new nids with what weaknesses?

None. These new nids could be kitted out to do well in whatever you felt like.

Every other army in the game has weakness such as extremely poor close combat(guard, tau), costly unspecialized units(Joe marines), bad shooting(orks can't do heavy anti-tank at range) etc.

People exagerate (sp?) weaknesses. IG are not that weak in CC, for 300 points or so they get a deathblob of 50 men with 5+ powerweapons thatīs stubborn and can re-roll ld tests.
Tactical squads are reasonably priced for the amount of damage they can take in addition to the sheer versatility of combat squadding and ATSKNF.

Orks suffer from heavy anti-tank shooting, but they can destroy most transports with sheer firepower.
Tau suffer in CC, true, but Tau are also a bit of a bottom feeder these days, even so their weakness isnīt that bad. They got good close-range firepower and JSJ helps a lot in avoiding untimely charges.
While weīre on the topic Iīd like to bring up necrons which get devastated in CC ( or so I hear, no real necron player here) because of sweeping advance.

I can understand many nid builds are weak against mech, and I wouldn't see anything wrong with giving nids an autocannon equivalent to take out those lightly armored transports(but making sure they have to get up close to those heavies).

I wouldnīt mind getting an autocannon and being able to kill tanks RELIABLY in CC, but we sure as heck arenīt able to do that. Let alone actually getting in CC with them.

However I just keep seeing nid players that want there army to be good at *everything* and that is what peeves me off.

I can get why you get that impression, there is tons of "what ifs" and such abound which can give one that impression.
The thing is, for me, that people who donīt play nids do not seem to realise how fragile and expensive things in the nid army really is.
I might be able to kill a tank up close, but getting there almost kills me and I WILL die after that one round of CC unless the dice gods are feeling particular.

Itīs in the quote.

catbarf
29-11-2009, 21:33
I don't get the weaknesses argument, because every other army in the game has a way of making up for its weaknesses.

Imperial Guard aren't great in CC, so you hang back and kill the enemy with gunfire.

Orks have poor accuracy, so they pour on the volume of fire and attack in melee.

Space Marines don't specialize, but they are flexible enough to keep the battle plan intact even if a unit goes down, and they can fight almost anything with any unit.

But Tyranids can't make up for not being able to shoot tanks by assaulting them, because that doesn't work either. And you can't make up for not being able to hurt tanks by killing more infantry.

Basically, every other army can address its weak point with one of its strengths. Guard can shoot instead of fighting in melee, Tau can stay mobile to avoid getting assaulted, Orks can get up close to kill tanks when long-range doesn't work. But ignoring a significant portion of the enemy army is NOT a viable option, and being unable to decently engage half of the enemy army is more than just a weakness.

Striker_002
30-11-2009, 00:50
I don't get the weaknesses argument, because every other army in the game has a way of making up for its weaknesses.


.........
Basically, every other army can address its weak point with one of its strengths. Guard can shoot instead of fighting in melee, Tau can stay mobile to avoid getting assaulted, Orks can get up close to kill tanks when long-range doesn't work. But ignoring a significant portion of the enemy army is NOT a viable option, and being unable to decently engage half of the enemy army is more than just a weakness.

And is this not what tyranids are supposed to do? Orks have powerklaw nobz, tyranids have genestealers and ability to take many MC's.

SirSnipes
30-11-2009, 02:07
not gonna lie people **** bricks when non nidzilla lists show up that are weird take my nids

3 units 32 gargoyles 2 flyrants, 24 warriors and a fuzkload of gaunts

catbarf
30-11-2009, 03:25
And is this not what tyranids are supposed to do? Orks have powerklaw nobz, tyranids have genestealers and ability to take many MC's.

Genestealers are S4, MCs are expensive and limited, and both are too slow to catch a tank. If Tyranid CC was made able to catch and kill vehicles, I'd be fine with it, but right now fragile CC specialists like Genestealers get turned into kibble and MCs can be seen coming and avoided from a mile away.

DuskRaider
30-11-2009, 03:28
not gonna lie people **** bricks when non nidzilla lists show up that are weird take my nids

3 units 32 gargoyles 2 flyrants, 24 warriors and a fuzkload of gaunts

But you can't take 2 Flyrants...

big squig
30-11-2009, 05:12
I'm still trying to figure out what to say to this. Because you couldn't be more wrong.
Wait, people think guard are overpowered? Really? They seem just right to me. I'm not having any problems facing them.

Cognitave
30-11-2009, 05:27
Wait, people think guard are overpowered? Really? They seem just right to me. I'm not having any problems facing them.

Guard was the winner, and most of the finalists, of 'Ard Boyz. Our last RTT was 12/28 players bringing Imperial Guard. When the GT season starts, guard are going to be what Nidzilla was prior to Nob Bikerz. Everywhere. The current power build is 2 CCS with 4 plasmaguns in a Chimera, 4 veterans with 3 meltaguns in each squad, 3 vendettas, some form of S10, and some tanks.

The list varies by the player, but the shell is still the same.

big squig
30-11-2009, 05:33
Guard was the winner, and most of the finalists, of 'Ard Boyz. Our last RTT was 12/28 players bringing Imperial Guard. When the GT season starts, guard are going to be what Nidzilla was prior to Nob Bikerz. Everywhere. The current power build is 2 CCS with 4 plasmaguns in a Chimera, 4 veterans with 3 meltaguns in each squad, 3 vendettas, some form of S10, and some tanks.

The list varies by the player, but the shell is still the same.
The last big tourney we had was mostly guard players too. At first they did pretty well, but most people have gotten used to them. I myself have been mostly only playing against guard since their book came out with little trouble. None of my mates are having many problems either. They just went from borderline unplayable to competent.

Oddly, since the new guard book I've seen a TON of guard players...but they're not new players. They're just people who shelved their army in frustration ages ago.

By far the most common guard army I face is full of vets with three meltas/plasmas in chimeras, vendettas, and plenty of good armor support. I'm still not seeing anything OTT about that. It seems on about par with every other army.

But, this is a topic about nids, not guard.

Cognitave
30-11-2009, 05:46
I would love to see my opponent put a unit of Warriors down on the table, and not laugh then take them off for more 'fexes.

Dangersaurus
30-11-2009, 05:58
I don't see why you call it anti-Tyranid sentiment. Wanting to nerf genestealers (to get more of them at a lower price) and limit options on carnifexes (to give them a more defined role), is PRO-Tyranid.

genestealer_baldric
30-11-2009, 08:28
hmmm maybe we will get a bird/gargoyle strike special rule to take down those fast skimmers/flyers in the new codex that would sort of the fast tank/flying problem.

Brendi
30-11-2009, 09:57
I don't see why you call it anti-Tyranid sentiment. Wanting to nerf genestealers (to get more of them at a lower price) and limit options on carnifexes (to give them a more defined role), is PRO-Tyranid.

How the heck is nerfing and limiting supposed be pro-tyranid?
Genestealers are overpriced already and do not need a stat reduction. Compared to most other specialised CC units they do not have any real special rules to make them stand out, itīs just the stats.

Carnifexes are supposed to be a mutable-genus, which means they should at least be able to get 2-3 builds.

Granted I think we wonīt see anymore + stats biomorphs so that will probably effect a lot of costs.

leonmallett
30-11-2009, 10:26
Go back and read. You're beating a dead horse, buddy.

EDIT:
To save you the trouble (I mean it was obviously too hard for you the first time), I was speaking purely competitively. But don't let that get in the way of your "+1 post count!!1". Stirring up threads is fun :angel:

"I was speaking purely competitively", is no argument at all, except to justify overpowered selections that were present as being the saving grace and be-all and end-all of the codex: they weren't and they aren't. :rolleyes:

As for your "+1 post count!!1" accusation - consider your own post here, and your apparent trolling subsequently; ironic, no? :eyebrows:

And as for suggesting "it was obviously too hard for you the first time" - you fell short when manners were handed out it seems...

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 10:27
Guard was the winner, and most of the finalists, of 'Ard Boyz. Our last RTT was 12/28 players bringing Imperial Guard. When the GT season starts, guard are going to be what Nidzilla was prior to Nob Bikerz. Everywhere. The current power build is 2 CCS with 4 plasmaguns in a Chimera, 4 veterans with 3 meltaguns in each squad, 3 vendettas, some form of S10, and some tanks.

The list varies by the player, but the shell is still the same.

Yeah, those IG lists are the onces i see 80% of the time.
And they are boring as hell.
Next codex, kick those veterans back into the elites section. Or at least restrict them.1 squad of veterans for every platoon you take.

It's a pitty people don't use any creativity anymore.

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 10:31
I don't see why you call it anti-Tyranid sentiment. Wanting to nerf genestealers (to get more of them at a lower price) and limit options on carnifexes (to give them a more defined role), is PRO-Tyranid.

No it's not.

Dangersaurus
30-11-2009, 10:48
How the heck is nerfing and limiting supposed be pro-tyranid?

Because I want a better army and I'm not a cheerleader or fanboi?

Making the army better is making the army better, regardless of which way the stats go. I believe that genestealers need to be cheaper (even more so than codex creep should account for) while retaining much of their same punch. Dropping WS and I to 5 would be a fine way to help justify dropping the points a bit.

Locking in options on Carnifexes (hopefully by squad, not by simply tossing the whole "menu" out) will help make other units in the codex more attractive. They don't really need a stat nerf, although a change in Strength to 6 combined with new rules giving them the equivalent of a pfist/dccw would sit better with me. They seem too small to have a natural 9 strength. Of course, if the guns aren't all based on creature strength any more none of that matters, but it still feels wrong to me.

big squig
30-11-2009, 11:13
I'd like to see carnifexes sorta return to how they played in 2nd ed. They used to be M6 (very fast back then), WS6, BS3, S7, T8, W10, I6, A4, and LD10.

Now, some of that is nuts under the current rules, but they could be WS5, BS3, S7, T7, W4, I5, A3, LD10, Sv. 2+ (Fleet) for 120 points base maybe. Brood size: 1-3. Must have two bio-weapons and up to three bio-morphs. The entire brood must be identical.

Bio-morphs could be:
- Adrenaline Glands: Hit and Run
- Acid Maw: Poison attacks
- Enhanced Senses: Night Vision
- Regenerate: Feel No Pain (super expensive)
- Toxin Sacs: +1 strength
- Implant Attack: 2 damage
- Spine Banks: -1 WS to all enemies in combat
- Spore Cysts: Assault and Defensive Grenades
- Tail Weapon: +1 attack
- Thorn Back: Furious Charge
- Tusked: +2 attacks on charge

Plus they would have Bio-plasma for free (they were always supposed to have it)

A 3 carnifex brood with the cost of bio-weapons and the cost of three bio-morphs each should come to about 600 points. I'd be ok with fighting 9 carnifexs if it's costing my opponent 1800 points...

I'd also like to see Carnifexs lose fearlessness and maybe even become LD5. They're not synapse creatures and should be wild animals just like guants. Just because their big and exspensive doesn't mean they're all intelligent. Hell anything that's not synapse, a genstealer, or a lictor should be LD5. There should be REAL repercussions for losing synapse (right now, almost everything ignores synapse, is fearless, or is LD10 for no reason). I'd also like to see synapse range fluctuate based off the creature. A hive tyrant could have 18" synapse, warriors and the broodlord could have a 12" synapse, and zoanthropes that have bought synapse could have a 6" range. (again, that's sorta how it was like in 2nd ed.)

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 12:22
I'd like to see carnifexes sorta return to how they played in 2nd ed. They used to be M6 (very fast back then), WS6, BS3, S7, T8, W10, I6, A4, and LD10.

Now, some of that is nuts under the current rules, but they could be WS5, BS3, S7, T7, W4, I5, A3, LD10, Sv. 2+ (Fleet) for 120 points base maybe. Brood size: 1-3. Must have two bio-weapons and up to three bio-morphs. The entire brood must be identical.

Bio-morphs could be:
- Adrenaline Glands: Hit and Run
- Acid Maw: Poison attacks
- Enhanced Senses: Night Vision
- Regenerate: Feel No Pain (super expensive)
- Toxin Sacs: +1 strength
- Implant Attack: 2 damage
- Spine Banks: -1 WS to all enemies in combat
- Spore Cysts: Assault and Defensive Grenades
- Tail Weapon: +1 attack
- Thorn Back: Furious Charge
- Tusked: +2 attacks on charge

Plus they would have Bio-plasma for free (they were always supposed to have it)

A 3 carnifex brood with the cost of bio-weapons and the cost of three bio-morphs each should come to about 600 points. I'd be ok with fighting 9 carnifexs if it's costing my opponent 1800 points...

I'd also like to see Carnifexs lose fearlessness and maybe even become LD5. They're not synapse creatures and should be wild animals just like guants. Just because their big and exspensive doesn't mean they're all intelligent. Hell anything that's not synapse, a genstealer, or a lictor should be LD5. There should be REAL repercussions for losing synapse (right now, almost everything ignores synapse, is fearless, or is LD10 for no reason). I'd also like to see synapse range fluctuate based off the creature. A hive tyrant could have 18" synapse, warriors and the broodlord could have a 12" synapse, and zoanthropes that have bought synapse could have a 6" range. (again, that's sorta how it was like in 2nd ed.)

Why should FNP be superexpensive?
It doesn't even work against AP1 and 2-weapons. And those are the most common weapons which are used against carnifexes.
A variant of FNP against ALL weapons would be good and that should be very expensive.

I think the range of synapse should be extended.
I don't want to use the first half of my army to control the second half.
A few powerful synapse creatures should be sufficient.
I want Zoanthropes to have synapse creature as standard.

Broods out of synapse range should have to (try) assault the most nearby enemy unit. Not lurking or falling back. They are predators and they want to kill, not to retreat.

LD5 on carnifexes would be terrible. They should remain the fearless monsters they are.

genestealer_baldric
30-11-2009, 12:37
carnifexs should be fearless because they are so stupid even a basic animal has a sense of self presavation where as a carnifex would glady try to gum a emporator titan to death without thinking twice.

Lord Solar Plexus
30-11-2009, 12:52
To be honest, I've never come across the sentiment catbarf describes in his initial post. I certainly do not want Nids to be nerfed.



in 2nd Ed, ... Carnifexes were T8 and had 10 wounds.


Don't forget regeneration! Still, that was in an age where every heavy weapon caused W3, W4, 2W6 or whatnot wounds...



Tyranid shooting is mediocre at best.


I think Tyranid shooting is still impressive despite their somewhat old codex. Re-rolling to hit and to wound goes a long way to ameliorate other problems.

Souleater
30-11-2009, 13:04
Shooty is current one of Nid's strengths. I rely on it to soften up targets quite a bit.

As to stealers getting nerfed down to WS5...please no. I don't see why they need any reduction in ability in order to justify a slight cost reduction.

They are fragile, aren't as fast across the board as most other transport able assault troops, don't have power weapons (rending is not reliable), they also lack the ability to take Meltaguns or Flamers - weapons I have found very useful for other assault troops.

Anyway I don't really see much point in this discussion. The dexes are printed by now.

big squig
30-11-2009, 13:13
carnifexs should be fearless because they are so stupid even a basic animal has a sense of self presavation where as a carnifex would glady try to gum a emporator titan to death without thinking twice.
By that logic, the entire army (other than synapse creatures, stealers, and lictors) should be fearless.

Dumb animals shouldn't be fearless, they should be the opposite of fearless. What the hell is the point of synapse if everything ignores it? Right now, all it's used for is IW (which shouldn't even be a rule for synapse). Fluff wise, the army is supposed to break if it losses it's connection with the hive mind.

I'd rather see the base LD for everything be 5 (except Lictors and stealers) and make anything under synapse Fearless and LD10 (to stop stuff like Mind War from getting out of hand). Anything not under synapse reverts back to LD5 and has Rage. They are predators, but they're still wildlife and will scatter easily. And none of this dumb IW junk and none of this instinctive behavior tests or lurking. It's wonky as all hell.

genestealer_baldric
30-11-2009, 13:36
By that logic, the entire army (other than synapse creatures, stealers, and lictors) should be fearless.

Dumb animals shouldn't be fearless, they should be the opposite of fearless. What the hell is the point of synapse if everything ignores it? Right now, all it's used for is IW (which shouldn't even be a rule for synapse). Fluff wise, the army is supposed to break if it losses it's connection with the hive mind.

I'd rather see the base LD for everything be 5 (except Lictors and stealers) and make anything under synapse Fearless and LD10 (to stop stuff like Mind War from getting out of hand). Anything not under synapse reverts back to LD5 and has Rage. They are predators, but they're still wildlife and will scatter easily. And none of this dumb IW junk and none of this instinctive behavior tests or lurking. It's wonky as all hell.

You need sysnape so the hive mind can tell the right critter to kill/destroy a certain object to help or protect part of the swarm otherwise they will just attak whats close with no reason, and the swarm will not be able to adpat to diffrent battlefield situations. Thats why i agree outside synapse they should be stubbon and have rage.

most things should be fearless they have no base cunning they have being evloved to fulfill a role and they have no sense of self presavation because they have no concept of "self" they are meraly cogs. it may be better at times for them to run to save them selfs but they dont undersand that concept so they shouldnt.

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 13:59
By that logic, the entire army (other than synapse creatures, stealers, and lictors) should be fearless.

Dumb animals shouldn't be fearless, they should be the opposite of fearless. What the hell is the point of synapse if everything ignores it? Right now, all it's used for is IW (which shouldn't even be a rule for synapse). Fluff wise, the army is supposed to break if it losses it's connection with the hive mind.

I'd rather see the base LD for everything be 5 (except Lictors and stealers) and make anything under synapse Fearless and LD10 (to stop stuff like Mind War from getting out of hand). Anything not under synapse reverts back to LD5 and has Rage. They are predators, but they're still wildlife and will scatter easily. And none of this dumb IW junk and none of this instinctive behavior tests or lurking. It's wonky as all hell.

So a carnifex should be the opposite of fearless? That sounds a bit ridiculous.
I can see the need for the hive mind to control and direct lot's of small broods. But carnifexes don't need that.
Personally i would like to see them pure for combat, smashing tanks etc.
That should be their purpose and they shouldn't need synapse to perform that task.
It should be a matter of evolution. I think a carnifex retreating out of battle isn't right. "Wow, look at that big dumbo over there, he's scared!"
No, that doesn't feel right at all.

On the contrary, i would like to see them become even more dangerous when they are wounded.
1 wound caused by shooting, give them fleet, 2nd wound, furious charge, 3th wound an extra D3 attacks.
If they gain 2 wounds in 1 round of shooting give them fleet and furious charge, if they gain 3 wounds, give them all options.
To me a carnifex will fight untill it's death and beyond...

big squig
30-11-2009, 14:47
I can see the need for the hive mind to control and direct lot's of small broods. But carnifexes don't need that.
I think a carnifex retreating out of battle isn't right. "Wow, look at that big dumbo over there, he's scared!"
No, that doesn't feel right at all.


There's nothing in the fluff anywhere in the history of tyranids that suggests a carnifex is more intelligent than a gaunt. It's just another bug. A big bug, sure, but just another bug. There's no reason for it to have LD 10 or be fearless. Same with Raveners, Gargoyles, Tyrant Guard, Rippers, or Biovores. Without synapse, self-preservation takes over. If something is tough enough to actually cause a LD test on a carnifex or any of those bugs, they should run like deer.

Part of playing a tyranid army correctly should be properly managing synapse, and part of beating a tyranid army should be dismantling synapse.

Right now, if a tyranid player loses synapse, nothing really happens. And that's just totally against the fluff. It would be like killing the general in an undead army and none of the skeletons or zombies being affected.

leonmallett
30-11-2009, 14:52
...Part of playing a tyranid army correctly should be properly managing synapse, and part of beating a tyranid army should be dismantling synapse.

Agreed.


Right now, if a tyranid player loses synapse, nothing really happens. And that's just totally against the fluff. It would be like killing the general in an undead army and none of the skeletons or zombies being affected.

If the Synpase is eliminated while the army is not yet engaged with the enemy, a lot potentially happens when you try moving units without Synapse, because even a Carnifex can fail its Ld roll for Instinctive Behaviour, let alone the Gaunts with their very low Ld.

big squig
30-11-2009, 14:58
If the Synpase is elimitaed while the army is not yet engaged with the enemy, a lot potentially happens when you try moving units out of Synapse, because even a Carnifex can fail its Ld roll for Insticntive Behaviour, let alone the Gaunts with their very low Ld.

The problem is, LD10 is really hard to fail, and no one in their right mind takes gaunts when they could just take stealers and carnifexs.

That's why, in addition to dropping most the nid army to LD5, synapse should make nids Ld10 and fearless, but if their out of synapse they revert back to LD5 and get rage. No instinctive behavior, no eternal warrior. The bugs outside synapse become predatory and would only flee for self preservation if they fail a LD test, like normal troops. It's pretty damn hard to get a carnifex to even take an LD test to begin with. So long as the unit is not taking 25% casualties or losing combat, being out of synapse shouldn't be an issue.

This would make the nid army vulnerable if it lost synapse, but not to the point that they just stopped fighting or lurked in the woods.

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 15:01
There's nothing in the fluff anywhere in the history of tyranids that suggests a carnifex is more intelligent than a gaunt. It's just another bug. A big bug, sure, but just another bug. There's no reason for it to have LD 10 or be fearless. Same with Raveners, Gargoyles, Tyrant Guard, Rippers, or Biovores. Without synapse, self-preservation takes over. If something is tough enough to actually cause a LD test on a carnifex or any of those bugs, they should run like deer.

Part of playing a tyranid army correctly should be properly managing synapse, and part of beating a tyranid army should be dismantling synapse.

Right now, if a tyranid player loses synapse, nothing really happens. And that's just totally against the fluff. It would be like killing the general in an undead army and none of the skeletons or zombies being affected.

I strongly disagree.
Tyranids aren't ordinary animals. They are geneticaly enhanced.
It's not hard to imagine that carnifexes could evolve into monsters that don't feel fear.
To me they represent some kind of giant insects. I'm pretty sure a lot of insects fight without fear.

By your logic, nothing in the game should be fearless.

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 15:04
The problem is, LD10 is really hard to fail, and no one in their right mind takes gaunts when they could just take stealers and carnifexs.

That's why, in addition to dropping most the nid army to LD5, synapse should make nids Ld10 and fearless, but if their out of synapse they revert back to LD5 and get rage. No instinctive behavior, no eternal warrior. The bugs outside synapse become predatory and would only flee for self preservation if they fail a LD test, like normal troops. It's pretty damn hard to get a carnifex to even take an LD test to begin with. So long as the unit is not taking 25% casualties or losing combat, being out of synapse shouldn't be an issue.

This would make the nid army vulnerable if it lost synapse, but not to the point that they just stopped fighting or lurked in the woods.

Imagine you can take 3 carnifexes in 1 slot in the new codex.
1 carnifex dies, the other two run because of their leadership 5.
That makes no sense.

big squig
30-11-2009, 15:06
I strongly disagree.
Tyranids aren't ordinary animals. They are geneticaly enhanced.
It's not hard to imagine that carnifexes could evolve into monsters that don't feel fear.
To me they represent some kind of giant insects. I'm pretty sure a lot of insects fight without fear.

By your logic, nothing in the game should be fearless.
Insects flee all the time if they're in a losing fight. There's no reason for a carnifex outside synapse to be fearless. Outside synapse, the carnifex has control over itself. If it ends up in a situation where it's getting it's ass kicked (losing combat) there should be a chance that it flees.

Just being really awesome and cool is not grounds for fearlessness. Having no mind is, like thousand sons, wraithguard, or being in synapse.

I'd be ok with a decent LD (maybe 8) but fearlessness just goes against the point being in synapse to begin with game wise.

big squig
30-11-2009, 15:09
Imagine you can take 3 carnifexes in 1 slot in the new codex.
1 carnifex dies, the other two run because of their leadership 5.
That makes no sense.

Which is why I would be fine with Ld8 maybe. But still, it's just more reason to take proper care of your synapse, and more reason to reconsider dumping 400-600 points in a unit of carnifexs.

If you're losing all your synapse, you need to play better. (assuming the new codex fixes problems like over-priced super fragile warriors and extends synapse ranges on certain units like tyrants)

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 15:16
Insects flee all the time if they're in a losing fight. There's no reason for a carnifex outside synapse to be fearless. Outside synapse, the carnifex has control over itself. If it ends up in a situation where it's getting it's ass kicked (losing combat) there should be a chance that it flees.

Just being really awesome and cool is not grounds for fearlessness. Having no mind is, like thousand sons, wraithguard, or being in synapse.

I'd be ok with a decent LD (maybe 8) but fearlessness just goes against the point being in synapse to begin with game wise.

Have you ever seen Ants fighting?
I think creatures with a tiny brain should be fearless.
Intelligent creatures should be stubborn as a max.

A carnifex runs like a chicken because it wants to live.
A deathwing terminator is suicidal because he's fearless.
Makes no sense to me.

big squig
30-11-2009, 15:28
Have you ever seen Ants fighting?
I think creatures with a tiny brain should be fearless.
Intelligent creatures should be stubborn as a max.

A carnifex runs like a chicken because it wants to live.
A deathwing terminator is suicidal because he's fearless.
Makes no sense to me.

Then why do gaunts run?

First off, tyranids are supposed to be related closer to dinosuars than bugs.

Second, ants kind of have this 'greater purpose' thing going on, much like nids do...when their under the influence of the hive mind. Even in the description of synapse in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ed tyranid codex they say that the tyranids "revert to basic animalistic instincts".

What the hell is the point of synapse if it only prevents your crappiest units from running away?

genestealer_baldric
30-11-2009, 15:31
Then why do gaunts run?

First off, tyranids are supposed to be related closer to dinosuars than bugs.

Second, ants kind of have this 'greater purpose' thing going on, much like nids do...when their under the influence of the hive mind. Even in the description of synapse in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ed tyranid codex they say that the tyranids "revert to basic animalistic instincts".

What the hell is the point of synapse if it only prevents your crappiest units from running away?

in theroy they shouldnt but that had to be added into the fluff to provide the nids with a plot weakness that could be explolited :P

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 15:41
Then why do gaunts run?

First off, tyranids are supposed to be related closer to dinosuars than bugs.

Second, ants kind of have this 'greater purpose' thing going on, much like nids do...when their under the influence of the hive mind. Even in the description of synapse in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th ed tyranid codex they say that the tyranids "revert to basic animalistic instincts".

What the hell is the point of synapse if it only prevents your crappiest units from running away?

I can see this happen:
Psyker battlesquads reducing the leadership of a carnifex to 2.
Ratlings pinning a carnifex(or group of carnifexes).
It's laughable.
Carnifexes should remain fearless.

It's nice and all if tyranids revert to basic animalistic instincts.
But it shouldn't mean they run.
Rage is fine.
All tyranids should be fearless and controlable unless out of synapse range.
Those outside synapse range should still be fearless, just uncontrolable for the hive mind(rage).
They should never be pinned, falling back, or sweeping advanced.

And why should large groups of Orks be fearless?
Because they feel confident being in large groups?
Then Tyranids can be fearless in large groups aswell and carnifexes can be confident because they're, well... large.

Bloodknight
30-11-2009, 16:22
At one time they could go 12" a turn and were I6 and WS6 with 4 attacks.

At that time, however, Imperial Guard Colonels were WS6 and I6, too (SM Captains WS and I7, Imperial Assassins WS8 I8), and high or low I meant almost nothing.

Dangersaurus
30-11-2009, 17:58
I just can't believe people are still wishlisting away for Carnifexes to get better.

Maybe that's what the OP is on about: If you don't think Tyranids should get their 2nd edition stats back, fleet, FNP for cheap, LD10, Eternal Warrior, no penalties for being out of synapse, immune to sweeping advances, consolidate into combats and have emperor-****** Carnis that get better the more you shoot them, you're anti-Tyranid.

DuskRaider
30-11-2009, 18:06
Carnifexes are fine the way they are. In fact, if they're going to be taken in squads as rumored, they need to be toned down in order for it to work. Maybe

WS 5 BS 3 S 10 T 6 W 4 I 1 Ld 10

I think that would be fair if you have the option to take 9 in heavy support groups of 3. Give them weapons that can actually penetrate armor, too.

gothgar
30-11-2009, 18:16
I don't think they should reduce the toughness of the fex, I think it makes more sense for higher toughness, but a worse save...

It's not like they are wearing armor, they are just super tough huge beasts... I think they should be 7t base with 8t as an upgrade, but with no armor or very weak armor, like 6+ upgradable to 5+ or something.

Then a lot of things (4s) could no longer wound them at all, would be in line more so than having a 2+ save... which is just stupid IMO.

DuskRaider
30-11-2009, 18:56
I meant to put 3+ save, but I forgot. I think T 6 is fine, nothing can ID them (nothing can since they're Nids anyways, but that's a whole other issue), Having a horrible save would make no sense on a 'Fex since they're so heavily armored, I think 3+ is fine due to it still being organic. GW just better not drop the ball and make them 9 deep HS with the ability to give them 5 wounds, 2+ armor, yadda yadda and make them nigh unstoppable unless you play a tank heavy Guard army (which I don't and never will).

Brendi
30-11-2009, 18:58
Sorry to say , but 6-5+ save on a carnifex is whatīs stupid.
Stop thinking about nids as regular animals, they have access to minerals and nutrients from tons of otherwordly and alien sources.

This is pure speculation, mind, but from what Iīve seen and read tyranids also gather metals and minerals. If you look at, say tyrant guard, then they (according to fluff) were developed to protect important creatures from heavy weapons. And when you calculate in the absorption ability you get with heavy muscles beneath those thick, thick carapace plates then Iīd say they are pretty heavily armored.

If other races can harness metals and minerals then why not nids? I mean they got spaceships and produce creatures that can tear through fortress walls.
I donīt see how nids being able to use some of those resources towards defenses.

You can say that they are alpha and omega predator killing machines, but I present the fact that the best predator is not the one that always gets its kill, itīs the one that is still able to hunt after either a failed or a successful hunt.

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 19:28
I just can't believe people are still wishlisting away for Carnifexes to get better.

Maybe that's what the OP is on about: If you don't think Tyranids should get their 2nd edition stats back, fleet, FNP for cheap, LD10, Eternal Warrior, no penalties for being out of synapse, immune to sweeping advances, consolidate into combats and have emperor-****** Carnis that get better the more you shoot them, you're anti-Tyranid.

Yes Carnifexes need to be better.
Not stronger, just more effective.
Reduce str.
increase amount of attacks
Limit them in weapon combinations
make them faster

If you think that's Anti-tyranid. Good for you.

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 19:31
Carnifexes are fine the way they are. In fact, if they're going to be taken in squads as rumored, they need to be toned down in order for it to work. Maybe

WS 5 BS 3 S 10 T 6 W 4 I 1 Ld 10

I think that would be fair if you have the option to take 9 in heavy support groups of 3. Give them weapons that can actually penetrate armor, too.

They are very good at killing vehicles...use them in assault and you get the benefit from being a monstreous creature.

big squig
30-11-2009, 20:54
I just can't believe people are still wishlisting away for Carnifexes to get better.

Maybe that's what the OP is on about: If you don't think Tyranids should get their 2nd edition stats back, fleet, FNP for cheap, LD10, Eternal Warrior, no penalties for being out of synapse, immune to sweeping advances, consolidate into combats and have emperor-****** Carnis that get better the more you shoot them, you're anti-Tyranid.
No, but carnifexs right now do not properly represent what a carnifex should be. Their WS, I, and A should be higher (WS5, I4, A3) and they should have fleet. But, their Str should be lower (S6 or 7), they're bio-morphs should be much more restrictive, and they should cost a lot more points.

Also, the IW thing with synapse sure hope is not going to be in the codex. That was such a stupid idea. I also don't agree with no penalty for being out side synapse.


I don't think they should reduce the toughness of the fex, I think it makes more sense for higher toughness, but a worse save...


In every nid codex, carnifexs have had terminator armor.


I can see this happen:
Psyker battlesquads reducing the leadership of a carnifex to 2.
Ratlings pinning a carnifex(or group of carnifexes).
It's laughable.
Carnifexes should remain fearless.

It's nice and all if tyranids revert to basic animalistic instincts.
But it shouldn't mean they run.
Rage is fine.
All tyranids should be fearless and controlable unless out of synapse range.
Those outside synapse range should still be fearless, just uncontrolable for the hive mind(rage).
They should never be pinned, falling back, or sweeping advanced.

And why should large groups of Orks be fearless?
Because they feel confident being in large groups?
Then Tyranids can be fearless in large groups aswell and carnifexes can be confident because they're, well... large.

Then why would I even bother taking anything synapse related? It would be just a waste of points. Why would you have a special rule that is supposed to make an army fearless if its already fearless?

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 21:08
Then why would I even bother taking anything synapse related? It would be just a waste of points. Why would you have a special rule that is supposed to make an army fearless if its already fearless?

Are you serious?
So you don't see a difference between a controlable swarm and a swarm with Rage?
I do.

big squig
30-11-2009, 21:14
Are you serious?
So you don't see a difference between a controlable swarm and a swarm with Rage?
I do.

Not a major one. If I took 9 carnifexs and max stealers, I'm prolly just going to charge the closest target anyways. The only thing Rage forces yo to do is move towards the closest enemy, run towards the closest enemy 'if' you run, and consolidate towards the closest enemy after assault. You're still free to assault whoever you want. You're still free to shoot whoever you want.

The bigger issue in my mind with making all nids fearless is that since the days of RT, nids have never ever been fearless unless in synapse. It's part of what makes them nids. In ever battle story, the nids fall apart and break/wander when they lose connection with the hive mind.

That and fearless is handed out too often for no reason already.

Murphy's law
30-11-2009, 22:06
Not a major one. If I took 9 carnifexs and max stealers, I'm prolly just going to charge the closest target anyways. The only thing Rage forces yo to do is move towards the closest enemy, run towards the closest enemy 'if' you run, and consolidate towards the closest enemy after assault. You're still free to assault whoever you want. You're still free to shoot whoever you want.

The bigger issue in my mind with making all nids fearless is that since the days of RT, nids have never ever been fearless unless in synapse. It's part of what makes them nids. In ever battle story, the nids fall apart and break/wander when they lose connection with the hive mind.

That and fearless is handed out too often for no reason already.

Uncontrolable also means they can't claim objectives.
And that's a huge difference.

I play penitent engines, and i can tell you, rage is a very hard thing.
My oponents send completely expendable units towards them which makes the penitent Engines most of the time worthless.
A smart player would direct your "not so fearless out of synapse range carnifexes"the way he wants.

I really don't care for Roque trader. Those times are long ago, games evolve, so does the hive mind. Carnifexes should remain fearless.

Nkari
30-11-2009, 23:46
I have always felt that tyranids are just a weee bit better than they should be compared to other armies, no matter what edition you played.. (cant speak about 1rst.. never played that..) etc..

They are not horribly broken, but can be a bit rough.. =)

catbarf
01-12-2009, 00:57
They are very good at killing vehicles...use them in assault and you get the benefit from being a monstreous creature.

The only way a Fex is going to get into melee with a tank is if the tank is immobilized or the controlling player is incompetent. They're just too fast for a Carnifex to catch.

DuskRaider
01-12-2009, 01:24
The only way a Fex is going to get into melee with a tank is if the tank is immobilized or the controlling player is incompetent. They're just too fast for a Carnifex to catch.

Exactly. Which is why 'Fexes need weapons that can actually penetrate armor and not just glance. I don't even play 'Nids and I hate that rule.

CommDante
01-12-2009, 01:49
From what I've read on the "games-workshop" site, they really got back to where they should be. I'm kinda wondering if all those "flying" 'nids will be in, kinda feels it's still in Apoc/FW ... still, it's the first time since 2nd ed I'm really excited about them again.

Just a random thought: I think the slow_codex_release is hurting more than contributing. Sure, new rules are nice. But even at the 3rd_edition_redone_cycle most codexi took ages. People mostly buy the models for playing the game, releasing new rules with most army_codexi being 1-2 years away will mostly only sell models of which codexi are released. Dark Eldar being the most obvious example: It's not because people don't like the army (afaik most people really like the army itself), but because the rules are a decade old/out-dated. I hardly bought anything since 3rd edition for my BA army, I probably missed something ... but I feel it's as old as my Dark Eldar Army. Perhaps it's GW's way of "forcing" people to buy other armies, if that the case: They'll need new management! Most people I know have shifted to other games because WH40k is "such a mess" (Their words, but I concur ... I mostly just collect these days, which has a LOT less priority to "collecting an army").

Anywho, I've always been interested in Tyranids. And it seems they've got their charms/annoyance back, with better looking models to boot (2nd ed Tyranid models were rather Meh imo).

To answer the OP: Imo they're rather new players, who can't coop with facing different armies. I never thought Tyranids were "cheesy" or "beardy" (are those terms still used?), but annoying as hell because they're so different from all the rest (which imo is one of their strongest points! 'nidZill really turned me off, I'm glad they seem to get "back to normal" being the biggest annoyance (read: "uncalculated"/unpredictable ones) yet again.

big squig
01-12-2009, 04:46
Exactly. Which is why 'Fexes need weapons that can actually penetrate armor and not just glance. I don't even play 'Nids and I hate that rule.
No, it's why fexs need Fleet along with every other bug. They are supposed to have the fastest infantry in the game.


I have always felt that tyranids are just a weee bit better than they should be compared to other armies, no matter what edition you played.. (cant speak about 1rst.. never played that..) etc..

They are not horribly broken, but can be a bit rough.. =)
Maybe in second ed. But in 3rd, 4th, and 5th they've been greatly underpowered unless you took a WAAC powerbuild...which is the sign of bad codex design.

DuskRaider
01-12-2009, 04:51
No, it's why fexs need Fleet along with every other bug. They are supposed to have the fastest infantry in the game.

Well... While Fleet would be nice, it's still not going to help them against long range tanks. Vindicators and the sort, yes, definitely. But Predator Annihilators or what have you? They'll still get picked off before they get to them. Maybe if they made Fleet an option for a CC-Fex.

big squig
01-12-2009, 05:08
Well... While Fleet would be nice, it's still not going to help them against long range tanks. Vindicators and the sort, yes, definitely. But Predator Annihilators or what have you? They'll still get picked off before they get to them. Maybe if they made Fleet an option for a CC-Fex.

Well, that's why you use cover and you shake the tank with venom cannons and such. Nids rip tanks apart, not shoot them down.

DuskRaider
01-12-2009, 05:13
I still think they need to option to shoot them down more reliably. Hopefully they'll remove the glancing-only rule.

Vaktathi
01-12-2009, 05:22
Personally, I'd really rather not see tyranid shooting get any more buffed. With the exception of AT tyranid shooting is already rather powerful and a greater part of the army than it should be, incentivizing players to build MC shooty lists and leave CC as the cleanup, not the primary method of destorying things. Most tyranid lists I see rely on shooting more than CC and I'd really prefer them to be less shooty and just ridiculously fast, cheap, and amazingly killy, with the big dudes there to smash stuff, not shoot it.


Nids should be, above and beyond, *the* CC army in 40k. From a thematic standpoint, I don't think long range effective AT is something the army should have, but rather tons of very fast and very killy close combat units that get stuck in very quickly, don't give a damn about casualties, and generally shred anything they get into, but shouldn't be sitting back and shooting. Tanks and big things should be torn open with claws and brute strength, not at range with some biogun.

big squig
01-12-2009, 05:24
I still think they need to option to shoot them down more reliably. Hopefully they'll remove the glancing-only rule.

If you want to pop tanks from across the board play guard, marines or tau. Nids can stop tanks the same way they are supposed to stop everything else; neutralize it's shooting until you can get in assault range.

big squig
01-12-2009, 05:28
Personally, I'd really rather not see tyranid shooting get any more buffed. With the exception of AT tyranid shooting is already rather powerful and a greater part of the army than it should be, incentivizing players to build MC shooty lists and leave CC as the cleanup, not the primary method of destorying things. Most tyranid lists I see rely on shooting more than CC and I'd really prefer them to be less shooty and just ridiculously fast, cheap, and amazingly killy, with the big dudes there to smash stuff, not shoot it.


Nids should be, above and beyond, *the* CC army in 40k. From a thematic standpoint, I don't think long range effective AT is something the army should have, but rather tons of very fast and very killy close combat units that get stuck in very quickly, don't give a damn about casualties, and generally shred anything they get into, but shouldn't be sitting back and shooting. Tanks and big things should be torn open with claws and brute strength, not at range with some biogun.

Bingo. Nid shooting is there to tie up/soften the enemy. Fast cheap units are there to keep the enemy busy in combat so the killy stuff doesn't get shot to pieces. Cheap gaunts and rippers are there to provide mobile cover when cover is scarce. Lictors and some genestealers flank behind the enemy to avoid being shot.

Nids aren't supposed to destroy the enemy with shooting, their supposed to avoid being shot at so they can get in CC.

Ivellis
01-12-2009, 06:40
'Nids are SUPPOSED to be an incredibly advanced bioengineered super race. Right now nothing about them shows that, but I'd prefer if it became a balance of shooting and close combat. Our basic trooper wouldn't use a gun as its main weapon and suck in CC if we weren't supposed to shoot.

leonmallett
01-12-2009, 08:17
Personally, I'd really rather not see tyranid shooting get any more buffed. With the exception of AT tyranid shooting is already rather powerful and a greater part of the army than it should be, incentivizing players to build MC shooty lists and leave CC as the cleanup, not the primary method of destorying things. Most tyranid lists I see rely on shooting more than CC and I'd really prefer them to be less shooty and just ridiculously fast, cheap, and amazingly killy, with the big dudes there to smash stuff, not shoot it.

I have to support this - as a Tyranid player; the only shooting that I feel needs work is the Warp Blast from Zoanthropes which is already pretty specialised.

I think the idea of the whole army having Fleet (as mentioned in an earlier post), works since it narrows the gap to short range shooting tanks but gives the edge to long ranged tanks - which they should have.


Nids should be, above and beyond, *the* CC army in 40k. From a thematic standpoint, I don't think long range effective AT is something the army should have, but rather tons of very fast and very killy close combat units that get stuck in very quickly, don't give a damn about casualties, and generally shred anything they get into, but shouldn't be sitting back and shooting. Tanks and big things should be torn open with claws and brute strength, not at range with some biogun.

Tyranid shooting should not (in my view) simply be enhanced to compensate for current perceived shortfalls - the army is about evolving creatures to specialist roles, with heavy emphasis on close combat, not being the jack-of-all-trades that Tactical marines rightfully are for example. So I agree that Tyranids should not have long range effective AT shooting.

I disagree about the bio-gun comment though. I think Tyranids have largely been presented as a short to mid range shooting force, and that was something that 'felt' right in 3rd edition. They shouldn't be able to out-shoot other armies - that would run counter to how the army probably should play - they shouldn't stop to get into a shoot-out, their shooting should simply be part of their assault tactics.

I think primarily the most destructive element of the army should be its assault effectiveness rather than shooting, but a beasty such as the Zoanthrope does have a niche with what should be be effective anti-tank - at the right cost.


As for comments from other posters about the Carnifex - we all have a vision of what it should be. I don't envisage that it should really be a gun platform, yet that is clearly the most effective role for it simply due to its relative lack of speed. I'd like to see the army balanced to be able to effectively represent the archetypal Tyranid army - I feel they should be an army that is very dangerous if it reaches close combat, putting emphasis on thinning their numbers beforehand, and it should not be inferior to others (Orks and IG specifically) in trying to create a horde theme.

leonmallett
01-12-2009, 08:24
'Nids are SUPPOSED to be an incredibly advanced bioengineered super race. Right now nothing about them shows that, but I'd prefer if it became a balance of shooting and close combat. Our basic trooper wouldn't use a gun as its main weapon and suck in CC if we weren't supposed to shoot.

Tyranid evolution has always been presented about specialisation/adaptation leading to specificity rather than role generality (ie they are not Tactical Marines, nor should they be comparable).

Or to put it another way - when the Hive Mind encounters a new problem it creates a new species rather than 'buffing' the existing ones. These new species will have a specific role (as do the others), and may be similar to existing species, but will be function-specific rather than generalised function, since their very creation was in response to a specifically indentified problem encountered by the Hive Mind.

Ivellis
01-12-2009, 09:38
Tyranid evolution has always been presented about specialisation/adaptation leading to specificity rather than role generality (ie they are not Tactical Marines, nor should they be comparable).

Or to put it another way - when the Hive Mind encounters a new problem it creates a new species rather than 'buffing' the existing ones. These new species will have a specific role (as do the others), and may be similar to existing species, but will be function-specific rather than generalised function, since their very creation was in response to a specifically indentified problem encountered by the Hive Mind.

I was speaking of the army as a whole, I don't want my termagaunts to beat orks in close combat AND out shoot them. I just want the overall feel of the army to be adaptable, whether you want a shooty army, a close combat army, or something in between is up to the player's choices. (And considering what you said, I think you agree.)

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 09:45
The only way a Fex is going to get into melee with a tank is if the tank is immobilized or the controlling player is incompetent. They're just too fast for a Carnifex to catch.

Then you're doing something wrong.
If you have enough carnifexes there will be no escaping for vehicles.

I let carnifexes move and run untill they reach the enemy lines.
It works very well. I'm not impressed by their shooting, i want them to crush the enemy. It takes some practise, but it works.

I also use outflanking genestealers and deepstriking lictors for tank-hunting.
In fact, there's only 3 models in my army that can shoot(warp blast)
1 Hive Tyrant, 2 zoanthropes.

I've never lost with my tyranids before.
My worst result has been a draw.

Tyranids don't need guns. They need to be fast.

leonmallett
01-12-2009, 10:26
I was speaking of the army as a whole, I don't want my termagaunts to beat orks in close combat AND out shoot them. I just want the overall feel of the army to be adaptable, whether you want a shooty army, a close combat army, or something in between is up to the player's choices. (And considering what you said, I think you agree.)

Ah, that's clearer then (and you are correct in your assumption).

oCoYoRoAoKo
01-12-2009, 10:52
Then you're doing something wrong.
If you have enough carnifexes there will be no escaping for vehicles.

...

Tyranids don't need guns. They need to be fast.

See thats part of the problem. The 'If you have enough carnifex' mentality is the real issue here. Wether by shooting or cc, people freak out when they see loads of carnies on the board, and immediately cry nidzilla (though ive even seen someone cry nidzilla on just 2 carnies and a flyrant before). However, given the other choices in the book, more canifex are whats needed in order to do anything nowadays given the amount of troop-killing ability thats out there.

As for the army on a whole, i disagree with you Murphy's Law. Tyranids shouldnt have any conventional 'long range weaponry' but rather should be able (if needed) to make devastating short range firepower (at the expense of combat abilities of course). What they should not be able to do though is multi-task very well (so you can make a good combat creature or short-ranged firepower creature but not in-between). I think in terms of shooting ability, they are about right where they are now (as the focus is more on higher volume of fire, lower strength weaponry) but the VC/BS and warp-blast needs a rework.

So, like i have said before: One of the best armies in the 0-18" range.

Cy.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 11:57
See thats part of the problem. The 'If you have enough carnifex' mentality is the real issue here. Wether by shooting or cc, people freak out when they see loads of carnies on the board, and immediately cry nidzilla (though ive even seen someone cry nidzilla on just 2 carnies and a flyrant before). However, given the other choices in the book, more canifex are whats needed in order to do anything nowadays given the amount of troop-killing ability thats out there.

As for the army on a whole, i disagree with you Murphy's Law. Tyranids shouldnt have any conventional 'long range weaponry' but rather should be able (if needed) to make devastating short range firepower (at the expense of combat abilities of course). What they should not be able to do though is multi-task very well (so you can make a good combat creature or short-ranged firepower creature but not in-between). I think in terms of shooting ability, they are about right where they are now (as the focus is more on higher volume of fire, lower strength weaponry) but the VC/BS and warp-blast needs a rework.

So, like i have said before: One of the best armies in the 0-18" range.

Cy.

To me enough Carnifexes means 3.
Combined with 1 Hive Tyrant.
Personally i don't care if people cry cheese, it's their lack of knowledge about how tyranids work, not mine.

I have no problem with (short range)fire arms on tyranids. But i have a problem with a carnifex hidden in cover shooting his big guns.
To me it's unfluffy and feels like someone wants to play guard.

But that's just my opinion.

Souleater
01-12-2009, 12:17
In that case my fexes have been unfluffy since 2nd Edition and the first Nid Codex.

I have always found Fex shooting to be more effective than their CC prowess.

I agree than anybody baulking at four TMCs is probably over-reacting. They aren't easy to kill but they aren't invulnerable, either.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 12:50
In that case my fexes have been unfluffy since 2nd Edition and the first Nid Codex.

I have always found Fex shooting to be more effective than their CC prowess.

I agree than anybody baulking at four TMCs is probably over-reacting. They aren't easy to kill but they aren't invulnerable, either.

Maybe they're more effective shooting(to me they weren't), but that doesn't mean it's what i expect carnifexes to be.

All tyranid weapons are assault weapons. I think that's for a reason.

oCoYoRoAoKo
01-12-2009, 13:28
To me enough Carnifexes means 3.
Combined with 1 Hive Tyrant.
Personally i don't care if people cry cheese, it's their lack of knowledge about how tyranids work, not mine.

I have no problem with (short range)fire arms on tyranids. But i have a problem with a carnifex hidden in cover shooting his big guns.
To me it's unfluffy and feels like someone wants to play guard.

But that's just my opinion.

i think we can both agree on this. Back in third, i was still using devourers even when they only had a 12" range. Its always been my fav weapon for warriors as they are the 'turn before combat' close support weapons that tyranids are supposed to have.

Cy.

Souleater
01-12-2009, 13:32
It is so they can get into range or move forward...it doesn't mean they want to get into HTH combat.

WH40KAj
01-12-2009, 13:40
To the OP, I originally said I see no anti-Tyranid sentiment. I withdraw that statement based on this thread, sadly.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 16:56
It is so they can get into range or move forward...it doesn't mean they want to get into HTH combat.

Personally i think that's exactly what they want.
If tyranids only want to shoot, i can see no need for having crushing claws, rending claws and scything talons etc.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 17:00
i think we can both agree on this. Back in third, i was still using devourers even when they only had a 12" range. Its always been my fav weapon for warriors as they are the 'turn before combat' close support weapons that tyranids are supposed to have.

Cy.

Yeah, Devourers make sense to me.
They are perfect at close range to soften up targets.

I see no point in big boomsticks on Carnifexes or Hive Tyrants
I think living artillery like biovores is cool(the idea at least,though i never use them)
something like a big plasmabug would be nice.

DuskRaider
01-12-2009, 17:01
Aren't they supposed to be buffing Biovores? I hope so, those things are useless as is.

Pacific
01-12-2009, 17:16
Yes, and hopefully a plastic upgrade and resculpt of the current miniature which looks like an undead ape with a backpack!

I can see some anti-nid sentiment in that most people probably think we are going to see some serious codex-creep with the new edition, no doubt trying to encourage big time spending on Gaunt and Carnifex boxsets (as we saw with previous orc and IG codecies)

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 19:11
Aren't they supposed to be buffing Biovores? I hope so, those things are useless as is.

Yeah, they definately need improvement.
I'm pretty sure they will be made usefull in the new codex, otherwise no one will ever use them again.

MVBrandt
01-12-2009, 19:18
Then you're doing something wrong.
If you have enough carnifexes there will be no escaping for vehicles.

I let carnifexes move and run untill they reach the enemy lines.
It works very well. I'm not impressed by their shooting, i want them to crush the enemy. It takes some practise, but it works.

I also use outflanking genestealers and deepstriking lictors for tank-hunting.
In fact, there's only 3 models in my army that can shoot(warp blast)
1 Hive Tyrant, 2 zoanthropes.

I've never lost with my tyranids before.
My worst result has been a draw.

Tyranids don't need guns. They need to be fast.

What they need is questionable. I've [also] never lost with my Tyranids before, and every single one of my units is shooty. Roughly 450-500 games with them. Tyranids are beautiful b/c they are a bludgeon of an army, not b/c they are a "combat" army or a "shooty" army. The method by which they bludgeon something is rather irrelevant to its merit otherwise.

In any event, something about going I USE JUST COMBAT AND NEVER LOSE THAT'S ALL TYRANID NEED prompted this reply, coupled w/ the post in rumors thread saying most non-synapse creatures were only one wound. Think, then post.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 19:33
What they need is questionable. I've [also] never lost with my Tyranids before, and every single one of my units is shooty. Roughly 450-500 games with them. Tyranids are beautiful b/c they are a bludgeon of an army, not b/c they are a "combat" army or a "shooty" army. The method by which they bludgeon something is rather irrelevant to its merit otherwise.

In any event, something about going I USE JUST COMBAT AND NEVER LOSE THAT'S ALL TYRANID NEED prompted this reply, coupled w/ the post in rumors thread saying most non-synapse creatures were only one wound. Think, then post.

I had twohundredandsixtyforthousand games with my tyranids since last year.

Play guard, then post.

DEADMARSH
01-12-2009, 19:56
I think there's several reasons for the anti-nid sentiment.

Firstly, their current codex is sort of like the previous Guard codex in that there's some really great and effective stuff in it, but about half of it is unfieldable in anything but a "have fun" type of list. Not points effective, not stats effective, nerfed by rulebook changes, whatever. This kind of forces 'Nid players into taking a few tried and true units virtually every time they play, which causes some folks to believe those units are cheesy when in reality, they're they only options worth taking.

I also think a lot of people who aren't all that good at the actual game tend to gravitate towards certain armies and 'Nids are one of those armies. I've played 'Nid players who wield their army like a scalpel, but I've played against a lot more 'Nid players who just set everything out on their table edge as far up as possible, then run forward until we end up playing craps for 2 hours in the form of the assault phase. Standing around rolling dice while nothing else happens isn't fun. It may be for the 'Nid player because he's probably going to win, but for me it's boring as ****. I'd rather be moving stuff around, trying to decide whether to fall back or advance on an objective or whatever. And yes, for the record, I think stand and fire heavy Marine or Guard armies are boring to play against too. I like 40k because you have to think and the die rolls are there to settle random stuff. If I feel like standing around rolling dice, I'll go to the casino boat. :)

Again though, don't misunderstand me, it's totally acceptable to play 'Nids as a run forward fast army, and if you're just getting into 40k or just started 'Nids, just like my first Marine army basically stood around and shot. I'd much rather play somebody with a fairly boring static army than somebody who pimps out on wargear and has to look everything up because they don't know the rules. However, if you've been playing 'Nids since second edition and your battle plan is still just to get forward as fast as possible and turn our nice little game into a craps table, well, that's just lame.

MVBrandt
01-12-2009, 20:03
I had twohundredandsixtyforthousand games with my tyranids since last year.

Play guard, then post.

My other army IS a guard army. 4th Ed. nids do'nt need close combat upgrades to beat on Guard, either via mc's on tanks, or vs. their guys. Why on Earth you would voluntarily abandon affordable high strength weaponry that can be fired on the move in order to beat on things as you advance is rather beyond me. Those are a lot of Tyranid games.:rolleyes:

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 20:06
My other army IS a guard army. Those are a lot of Tyranid games.:rolleyes:

Good for you.

MVBrandt
01-12-2009, 20:08
Um, thanks? Couple of these posts plus a couple in the nid rumor thread, are you havin' a bad day? Maybe a mod can come through and remove spammy passive aggressiveness, as well as this post by me? I'M CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEM.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 20:09
Um, thanks? Couple of these posts plus a couple in the nid rumor thread, are you havin' a bad day? Maybe a mod can come through and remove spammy passive aggressiveness, as well as this post by me? I'M CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEM.

Indeed, you are.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 20:16
My other army IS a guard army. 4th Ed. nids do'nt need close combat upgrades to beat on Guard, either via mc's on tanks, or vs. their guys. Why on Earth you would voluntarily abandon affordable high strength weaponry that can be fired on the move in order to beat on things as you advance is rather beyond me. Those are a lot of Tyranid games.:rolleyes:

I voluntary don't use heavy weapons on carnifexes because if they shoot, they can't run.
If i use heavy weapons on my carnifexes, i'll lose at least one attack in CC.
I like devourers though.

And i give up other firearms because i don't need them, remember?

zeep
01-12-2009, 20:39
If your saying you use the same tactics (run forward), and the same weapons (no heavy) against opponents, and never lose, what you have said is "My opponents are idiots with no ability to adapt or think."

I would like to safely remove them from consideration in regards to this subject as many of us face opponents that are at the same skill level, and have I.Q's above turnips.

MVBrandt
01-12-2009, 20:44
If your saying you use the same tactics (run forward), and the same weapons (no heavy) against opponents, and never lose, what you have said is "My opponents are idiots with no ability to adapt or think."

I would like to safely remove them from consideration in regards to this subject as many of us face opponents that are at the same skill level, and have I.Q's above turnips.

I wasn't gonna say it ...


Lists whose effectiveness is built around /run and hope meltaguns don't smoke me at some point ... imply a local metagame among the regular opponents that is, as Zeep pointed out, just above Turnip level.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 21:05
If your saying you use the same tactics (run forward), and the same weapons (no heavy) against opponents, and never lose, what you have said is "My opponents are idiots with no ability to adapt or think."

I would like to safely remove them from consideration in regards to this subject as many of us face opponents that are at the same skill level, and have I.Q's above turnips.

This is nonsense.
I play a lot of experienced veterans.
And i play a lot of touranments.
My only 1 draw was on one of those tournaments.

I use warp blast zoanthropes, a warp blast hive tyrant.
lictors for tankhunting and lot's of outflanking genestealers and 3 carnifexes to avoid oponents mob up. I don't NEED shooting.

Murphy's law
01-12-2009, 21:06
I wasn't gonna say it ...


Lists whose effectiveness is built around /run and hope meltaguns don't smoke me at some point ... imply a local metagame among the regular opponents that is, as Zeep pointed out, just above Turnip level.

You are so right. It's incredible.
Call me impressed mister.

DuskRaider
01-12-2009, 22:07
My friend does this with his 'Nids a lot. Unless he's fielding a ton of gaunts and scuttling 'Stealers behind me, I mow him down with little trouble. Run and pray is more an Ork tactic, and they're ten times better at it, too.

catbarf
01-12-2009, 23:13
Personally i think that's exactly what they want.
If tyranids only want to shoot, i can see no need for having crushing claws, rending claws and scything talons etc.

What, so it's either hang back and shoot from long range with no melee weapons or all charging into combat? No middle ground?

Tyranid fire is powerful and short-ranged. It's assault because it reflects the mobile nature of the swarm, not because they're all meant to get into melee. If its a melee creature, then the shooting is to soften up the target before charging. If it's a shooting creature, then the ranged fire is its role. Gunfexes fit this role, as do Zoanthropes, Termagants, and ranged Warriors. They are powerful despite their short range, and are much better used at a distance rather than charging.

There is no point in 40k's history where Tyranids were ever suggested to be mostly-melee, nor is there any reason for them to be.

MVBrandt
01-12-2009, 23:25
What catbarf just said is how I've always played them. It's not wrong per se to run them as a combat army, but there's a little feedback throughout the vet nid player community right now based on "fear" (or w/e you want to call it) of the new dex stripping firepower off the Nids, b/c of all the clamory nubish screaming for nids to be close combat ... a sentiment that I personally blame more on movies like Aliens and Starship Troopers than on the real history of what the Nids are/were/are supposed to be. I don't think it's so much a critique of someone playing them CC-only, as it is that.

WH40KAj
01-12-2009, 23:58
What, so it's either hang back and shoot from long range with no melee weapons or all charging into combat? No middle ground?

There is no point in 40k's history where Tyranids were ever suggested to be mostly-melee, nor is there any reason for them to be.

QFT. The 3rd edition builds were cc orientated and I believe that is where this image stems from.

big squig
02-12-2009, 01:47
I think there's several reasons for the anti-nid sentiment.

Firstly, their current codex is sort of like the previous Guard codex in that there's some really great and effective stuff in it, but about half of it is unfieldable in anything but a "have fun" type of list. Not points effective, not stats effective, nerfed by rulebook changes, whatever. This kind of forces 'Nid players into taking a few tried and true units virtually every time they play, which causes some folks to believe those units are cheesy when in reality, they're they only options worth taking.

I also think a lot of people who aren't all that good at the actual game tend to gravitate towards certain armies and 'Nids are one of those armies. I've played 'Nid players who wield their army like a scalpel, but I've played against a lot more 'Nid players who just set everything out on their table edge as far up as possible, then run forward until we end up playing craps for 2 hours in the form of the assault phase. Standing around rolling dice while nothing else happens isn't fun. It may be for the 'Nid player because he's probably going to win, but for me it's boring as ****. I'd rather be moving stuff around, trying to decide whether to fall back or advance on an objective or whatever. And yes, for the record, I think stand and fire heavy Marine or Guard armies are boring to play against too. I like 40k because you have to think and the die rolls are there to settle random stuff. If I feel like standing around rolling dice, I'll go to the casino boat. :)

Again though, don't misunderstand me, it's totally acceptable to play 'Nids as a run forward fast army, and if you're just getting into 40k or just started 'Nids, just like my first Marine army basically stood around and shot. I'd much rather play somebody with a fairly boring static army than somebody who pimps out on wargear and has to look everything up because they don't know the rules. However, if you've been playing 'Nids since second edition and your battle plan is still just to get forward as fast as possible and turn our nice little game into a craps table, well, that's just lame.

My very first army was tyrandis all the way back in 2nd ed. I have about 5000 points of them right now, and back in 2nd ed and part of 3rd ed my tactic was to run into combat where bugs are clearly more powerful (at least they used to be). But, I didn't just run blindly, I ran in waves. Hormaguants and gargoyles were used as the first wave, they were there not to do any real damage, but just to tie up the opponent in combat to stop them from shooting. My second wave consisted of stealers, warriors, and big bugs who were able to cross the board unmolested thanks to the first wave keeping the enemy busy. The second wave also had termagaunt meat shields to protect it from any enemy shooting I wasn't able to disrupt. Once the stealers, warriors, and big bugs got into combat, the enemy was ripped to bits pretty fast.

Problem is, stealers, warriors, tyrants, and carnifexs are too expensive, no where near as good in combat as they should be, and are slow thanks to 3/4 of them just being fleet-less infantry. Once the third ed nid codex came out, I stopped playing them. It would be nice if the 5th ed nid codex let nids play like nids are supposed to.

big squig
02-12-2009, 01:56
What catbarf just said is how I've always played them. It's not wrong per se to run them as a combat army, but there's a little feedback throughout the vet nid player community right now based on "fear" (or w/e you want to call it) of the new dex stripping firepower off the Nids, b/c of all the clamory nubish screaming for nids to be close combat ... a sentiment that I personally blame more on movies like Aliens and Starship Troopers than on the real history of what the Nids are/were/are supposed to be. I don't think it's so much a critique of someone playing them CC-only, as it is that.
They have always been a CC army. It's just that their CC ability has been continually nerfed with each edition so people have turned to shooting to make them work.

I'm holding every nid codex and rule book in front of me as I type this. The 2nd ed codex has a tactics article in it about the sole purpose of playing nids is to tear up in close combat. The first sentence of the introduction of the 4thed tyranid book is that tyranids are exceptionally powerful in close combat. I have a pamphlet for bugs (GW used to hand one out for each army) and it says that the main reason to play bug is because they are the best close combat army in the game.

That's not to say nids shouldn't have guns. They always have. But nids are not an army that hunkers down behind cover and blasts the enemy. They are the type that softens the enemy up with powerful very short-range firepower as they charge in and attack with their claws.

catbarf
02-12-2009, 03:29
I'm holding every nid codex and rule book in front of me as I type this. The 2nd ed codex has a tactics article in it about the sole purpose of playing nids is to tear up in close combat. The first sentence of the introduction of the 4thed tyranid book is that tyranids are exceptionally powerful in close combat. I have a pamphlet for bugs (GW used to hand one out for each army) and it says that the main reason to play bug is because they are the best close combat army in the game.

The tactics article in the 2nd Ed. book, specifically the big section on Firepower, focuses on the need for ranged weapons in the swarm. I'm not saying that Tyranids are just as shooty as, say, Space Marines, but they're definitely not an all-CC army, and if you notice the 2nd Ed tactics article in question even suggests using either a strong firebase of long-range troops or relying upon giving your troops short-ranged firepower. Nowhere does it suggest that Tyranids are only melee, just that it's their specialty.

And I agree, because Tyranid shooting does not work in isolation. There are no long-range guns and no anti-vehicle guns. I agree with you that it's meant to work in conjunction with melee, softening up units and damaging characters and vehicles from a distance so the melee troops can finish them off. But we shouldn't be suggesting that melee is all Tyranids do, or, worse, that they shouldn't even have guns.

big squig
02-12-2009, 04:48
But we shouldn't be suggesting that melee is all Tyranids do, or, worse, that they shouldn't even have guns.

Agreed. Though I wasn't aware some people were suggesting that. They're not daemons.

I just don't agree with some people's sentiments that carnifexs and hive tyrants should be able to drop tanks from across the board, or that guants/warriors should bunker down and shoot the enemy to death, or that nids should have the option to evolve to play like guard or tau. It's ok to have a lot of firepower in your army, but it still should have to fit within the context of how firepower works in a tyranid army.

Tsear
02-12-2009, 05:00
Lists whose effectiveness is built around /run and hope meltaguns don't smoke me at some point ... imply a local metagame among the regular opponents that is, as Zeep pointed out, just above Turnip level.

Sad but true. I'm a good player and I run a mean mech list, but I know the reason I don't lose is has more to do with how terrible my opponents are. Those of us who can only play against 4-5 different people can easily find ourselves without any good opponents.

Looking forward to picking up my nids again once they can actually deal with transports.

Murphy's law
02-12-2009, 09:30
My friend does this with his 'Nids a lot. Unless he's fielding a ton of gaunts and scuttling 'Stealers behind me, I mow him down with little trouble. Run and pray is more an Ork tactic, and they're ten times better at it, too.

Like you said..."unless...scuttling 'Stealers behind me"
That's what i do. And it works ALL the time.

Games against orks are allways very close.

People can jump up and down saying tyranids NEED firearms.
I tell you they DON'T.

Doesn't mean they have to lose their guns, they just don't need ranged weapons.

If someone doesn't know how to manage a CC-Tyranid army, fine, play them shooty.
To each his own, nothing wrong with that.

genestealer_baldric
02-12-2009, 09:41
Doesn't mean they have to lose their guns, they just don't need ranged weapons.


eh?:confused:

i did a few games to test the very theroy of pure cc and pure shooty
and it doesnt work that well, they need a balance between the two to make it an effective force

Murphy's law
02-12-2009, 09:56
What, so it's either hang back and shoot from long range with no melee weapons or all charging into combat? No middle ground?

Tyranid fire is powerful and short-ranged. It's assault because it reflects the mobile nature of the swarm, not because they're all meant to get into melee. If its a melee creature, then the shooting is to soften up the target before charging. If it's a shooting creature, then the ranged fire is its role. Gunfexes fit this role, as do Zoanthropes, Termagants, and ranged Warriors. They are powerful despite their short range, and are much better used at a distance rather than charging.

There is no point in 40k's history where Tyranids were ever suggested to be mostly-melee, nor is there any reason for them to be.

I use zoanthropes with warp blast and synapse all the time.
They move in the middle of the swarm, allways making sure they stay out of combat and making sure they get a coversave.

My non-winged hive tyrant has warpblast aswell, he's upfront with tyrant guards.
That's the only shooting i have.

I use a Winged Tyrant either as diversion(deepstriking it in the frontlines, to give the other big guys a save passage), or as support(moving it on a flank)

Because i don't spend points on big guns for carnifexes and Tyrants i have points left for the right equipment on my genestealers. Otherwise they would be a lot less effective.
I use 3 broods of ouflanking genestealers which works very well.
I only use 3 carnifexes.
But because they start running on turn one the pressure on my oponent is very big. They are my second wave.

I use two large broods of hormagaunts who are very fast and tie up very dangerous enemy units in combat. Just long enough to get those carnifexes and Tyrants close.
Hormagaunts are expensive but to me they are still completely expendable.
I use them without upgrades.

Most of the time i use 2 lictors.
I know they kinda suck, but they are pretty good against predators, leman russes, vindicators, etc.
They're also good at destroying transports. But i think they are to expensive for that role.

The things i combine work.There are a couple of nasty surprise elements and there is a lot of pressure for my oponents.

I know a couple of other people who play tyranids and most of them play them shooty.
Those guys are the same ones who use their allies in apocalypse as meatshields. Scared of losing a "few" models.

I don't like that style and i think it belongs to the Imperial Guard.
But hey, it's just my opinion.

Murphy's law
02-12-2009, 09:57
eh?:confused:

i did a few games to test the very theroy of pure cc and pure shooty
and it doesnt work that well, they need a balance between the two to make it an effective force

No they don't.
Outlflanking units are your friend.

genestealer_baldric
02-12-2009, 10:01
if playing against compatent oponets yes some shooty is needed even if its just a distraction, And why wouldnt you want to use some of the shooting avaible its quite good.

Murphy's law
02-12-2009, 10:10
if playing against compatent oponets yes some shooty is needed even if its just a distraction, And why wouldnt you want to use some of the shooting avaible its quite good.

I play a lot of tournaments and i play a lot of experienced players.
I don't need the shooting at all.

I'm not against shooting.. i can see the use for small arms and short ranged.
I know how effective devourers are on tyrants.
Just don't like big boomsticks on my carnifexes.(i did that before and found it underwhelming)
My carnifexes start running at the start of the game.(behind small bugs)
Small bugs tie enemy's up. Carnifexes and tyrants finish them.

I see the point in shooting zoanthropes(allthough it's a lot hit or miss)
and like i said, i think devourers are very effective. But they are not nescessary to me.

DuskRaider
02-12-2009, 14:46
Never underestimate Twin-Linked Barbed Stranglers. ID for Marines right there, and that's what you need. Something to scare the opponent. That being said, I've only lost twice to 'Nids, and that wasn't with my main army.

Murphy's law
02-12-2009, 15:44
Never underestimate Twin-Linked Barbed Stranglers. ID for Marines right there, and that's what you need. Something to scare the opponent. That being said, I've only lost twice to 'Nids, and that wasn't with my main army.

Why would i need a weapon which causes ID to marines?
Most marines i've ever seen have 1 wound anyway.

I've never played against an oponent who was scared of barbed stranglers though all my oponents fear 3 carnifexes running towards their frontline.

And everyone is scared of large groups of outflanking genestealers.

gorgon
02-12-2009, 16:46
I play a lot of tournaments and i play a lot of experienced players.
I don't need the shooting at all.

I think if it works in your metagame, it's mostly irrelevant whether it'd work anyplace else. It works for you and that's enough. It sounds to me like you're running that army well and people might be overlooking some of the good things you're doing/fielding.

But I can say pretty confidently that while an army like that might win games in my metagame (which I'm defining to include the regional/national tournaments I attend), it couldn't win consistently against some of the power builds, most of which would try to use superior mobility to dictate the game. It certainly couldn't go undefeated over any decent timeframe. There would just be rocks to those scissors, and most importantly rocks utilized well.

gwarsh41
02-12-2009, 17:13
I would bet that its alot of the people who are used to taking anti tank and having it kill something in one turn.
I have seen people make a fuss that a melta gun caused one wound to one of four carnifex.
I just bring the rain.
I am looking forward to the 5th dex. Hopefully my ex and I can get on friendly terms so I will be able to play against the new nids.
Only other player in town is terribad at nids.