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Orange1095
28-11-2009, 19:00
Sorry about the title but it would have been too long other wise.

Is there any difference between the new 3rd ed. Space Hulk and the older versions? rules wise i mean.

grissom2006
28-11-2009, 19:03
Beyond the odd tweaks on a few things no.

mattjgilbert
28-11-2009, 19:17
Not a huge amount as grissom2006 says but enough subtle changes to make a difference to the way it plays. A good difference though I think.

There were a couple of rules-change-summary threads kicking around on here if you go back a few pages.

Patriarch
29-11-2009, 00:16
There were a couple of rules-change-summary threads kicking around on here if you go back a few pages.

Here you go. (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216547)

The biggest changes are:

assault cannon, librarian and close combat weapons in the basic set
marines get sustained fire in overwatch as well as normal shooting
librarians get new powers paid for in psi points
new guard action
broodlord
Stealer free turn now included in the paid action, cutting down on overatch shots

A few smaller changes too.

Bolo-driller
13-12-2009, 21:40
Those Assault Cannons are crazy!

Im amazed a weapon chosen to be used by the Astartes can overheat and destroy anyone anywhere near it! As an ex soldier Id go nowhere near the bloody thing!!

nedius
14-12-2009, 07:18
That's quite common in 40k too - look at plasma weapons - If you've only got 1000 troops (ish), you're not going to give them weapons that explode in their face 1/6th of the time.

The fluff explanations for Assault cannons, however, is a bit different in Space Hulk.

The idea is that these are very volitile weapons at the best of times, but that under normal circumstances, the terminators have access to techmarines and fresh barrels (which wear out quickly due to the intense rate of fire). In fact barrels are apparently replaced with whenever it is reloaded. In the depths of a hulk, there's no easy access to techmarines, or new barrels, and so the game represents a weapon that is becoming dangerously worn out and in need of maintenance.

Not saying I think this is a good plan, but it's wht the game has.

wilsongrahams
14-12-2009, 09:51
People are forgetting 2nd ed here, it is still an older version. 2nd ed space hulk is dumbed down and there are a few differences - mainly the flamer, and passing on action points but is overall an easier ghame for kids. 1st ed got a little too complex with all the expansions, so 3rd ed is the best all round. Failing you getting a copy of third ed, get 1st or 2nd and then read all the rules forum here and you will easily learn all the changes - I managed to learn them all and play before I got my 3rd ed copy as many stores etc were posting rules and alterations before the day of release.

As an ex-soldier too, I agree about the assault cannon thing - it has a paltry rate of fire for a gatling gun as it is - it should use the overkill bonus from 2nd ed in my opinion. The fluff is fine, but with it's rate of fire and very small ammo load, it should never overheat. With reload it can only kill a maximum of 20 stealers in a game - hardly amazing, however it works in the game, so use the rules as they are for gameplay, but imagine some stealer has shredded the ammo feed or something and that is whatr makes it dangerous. It really depends how much you visualise the game as real events as you are playing, as to how you come up with excuses for rules. Personally, I see the board, but am seeing it al in 3D through the eyes of my marines, and every loss hurts deep inside...

Destructorn
15-12-2009, 01:44
With reload it can only kill a maximum of 20 stealers in a game.

Well, while that would be typically true, if you constantly rolled triple-hits and there were constantly three stealers in front of you, there is a theoretical maximum of 60 kills, but this would be statistically unlikely to ever occur.

Patriarch
15-12-2009, 08:56
Well, while that would be typically true, if you constantly rolled triple-hits and there were constantly three stealers in front of you, there is a theoretical maximum of 60 kills, but this would be statistically unlikely to ever occur.

Having multiple reloads would be less radical than allowing over-kills. After all, reloading takes up an entire turn for the marine, so they tended not to do this too often even when they had 2 or 3 reloads in 1st ed. With the greater 3rd ed emphasis on overwatch, over-kills just gets silly - many stealers will be killed during overwatch without having taken an action to provoke it.

wilsongrahams
16-12-2009, 06:39
Well, while that would be typically true, if you constantly rolled triple-hits and there were constantly three stealers in front of you, there is a theoretical maximum of 60 kills, but this would be statistically unlikely to ever occur.

Not quite accurate here. There is no overkill in 3rd edition, so even if you do roll those 3 hits, you still only actually kill one model, just that one model three times over. Overkill was in second ed.

My point was that I think overkill would be useful maybe, or as stated above, extra reloads may be better. After all, 1st ed stated that an assault cannon had 500 rounds, and with ten bursts, that was 50 rounds per burst...

monoRAIL
16-12-2009, 11:15
The timer is fixed at 3 minutes in 3rd edition, and if you lose both sergeants you lose the ability to re-select your command points. In first edition you lose 30 seconds off your clock for each dead sergeant.

Destructorn
17-12-2009, 04:17
I've been subtracting 30 seconds from the timer for every sergeant killed in 3rd edition. May not be in the rules, but damned if it doesn't crank the pressure up! Fun times.

Teufelskerl
18-12-2009, 01:56
The removal of the sand timer from the 2nd edition, as I remember, was done less to "dumb down" the game, and more as a cost cutting decision; as a player of 1st ed it was one of the primary things I missed, but I understood the decision. I'm not unhappy that they brought it back for 3rd.

I preferred the flamer rules for 2nd, on the basis that it allowed the SM player to be much more tactical in it's use, but not enough to cry like a baby now that they've gone back to 1st ed rules.

The one change that 3rd introduced, one which I think is more trouble than it's probably worth, is that Command Points are now hidden. In 1st and 2nd the GS player knew exactly how many CP the SM player had to spend from the very beginning of the SM's turn. When I play 3rd edition rules, I commonly get my opponents blessing so I don't need to hide mine when playing SM. I deal with it if he prefers to go by the RAW.

The true innovation that 3rd brings is the re-imagining of how Psykers work. 1st edition was great up until Psykers were introduced; the game instantly seemed to became about how best to deliver the game winning Librarian to the right place, and all other tactics went out the window. In contrast, 3rd seems to have done a nice balancing job; the Psyker is still very strong but, other than Mission VIII, he can't win alone.

grg3d
18-12-2009, 13:37
Ahaaaa... grasshopper We have come almost full circle

1st edition - was great until the release of Psyker cards

2nd edition - to much missing (different weapons,cp's in stealer's phase, no librarians, Tactical armored Marines, hybrids etc..

3rd edition - the way 1st used to be with a few good/bad changes....
Like overwatch sustained fire :cries:
Auto jam dissipering for free :cheese:
cp's in stealer's phase :)
Tactical armored Marines, hybrids :angel:



The one change that 3rd introduced, one which I think is more trouble than it's probably worth, is that Command Points are now hidden. In 1st and 2nd the GS player knew exactly how many CP the SM player had to spend from the very beginning of the SM's turn.

No 1st edition you were able to keep CP's a secret also, which in my opinion has a very tactical application for the marines.
They took this away in 2nd and the ability to use cp's in the stealer's phase

Patriarch
24-12-2009, 00:03
The removal of the sand timer from the 2nd edition, as I remember, was done less to "dumb down" the game, and more as a cost cutting decision; as a player of 1st ed it was one of the primary things I missed, but I understood the decision. I'm not unhappy that they brought it back for 3rd.
No, in 1st ed you provided your own timer (assumed to be a digital watch). Hence the time was varied for the presence of sergeants, captains, and psykers.


I preferred the flamer rules for 2nd, on the basis that it allowed the SM player to be much more tactical in it's use, but not enough to cry like a baby now that they've gone back to 1st ed rules.
Ugh. The flamer still ran out as fast if you wanted to block off movement, and you needed most of the tank left to complete "flame the room" missions. I think the only improvement from 1st to 2nd was that the marine miniatures were much better. Every other change was a step back IMO.


The one change that 3rd introduced, one which I think is more trouble than it's probably worth, is that Command Points are now hidden. In 1st and 2nd the GS player knew exactly how many CP the SM player had to spend from the very beginning of the SM's turn.
CPs were hidden in 1st ed in the same way as 3rd. The marine revealed his CPs in the endphase; if he'd overspent, the genestealers won by default. No point hiding them in 2nd as the marine could only use them in his own turn, so they were effectively extra APs rather than a tactical reserve.


When I play 3rd edition rules, I commonly get my opponents blessing so I don't need to hide mine when playing SM. I deal with it if he prefers to go by the RAW.
Nothing in the 3rd ed rules to stop the marine player shouting out how many CPs he has drawn if he wants:angel:. Nothing to stop him telling lies about it either...


The true innovation that 3rd brings is the re-imagining of how Psykers work. 1st edition was great up until Psykers were introduced; the game instantly seemed to became about how best to deliver the game winning Librarian to the right place, and all other tactics went out the window. In contrast, 3rd seems to have done a nice balancing job; the Psyker is still very strong but, other than Mission VIII, he can't win alone.
1st ed psychic cards definately made for a completely different game, but you could always play without them. It's true that non-psykers definately played second fiddle to the librarians and psykers if you were using them.
The broodlord is also a nice innovation, I thought. The main leap from 1st to 3rd is the game's aesthetics, which I think is very important.

wilsongrahams
24-12-2009, 09:30
The one change in second ed that they kept for third that I agree with most is capping the sustained fire limit to just +1. Otherwise that lone sod of a genestealer never got through. Sustained fire bonus on overwatch is a new thing for third ed which I thought was a little too powerful until my game last night where every single turn using overwatch jammed on one of the first few shots - often the first! Maybe I should take her to Vegas as she's so good at rolling doubles. My poor mother (my opponent) barely killed anyone on overwatch the whole game, but has an uncanny ability to roll 6's...

ecurtz
24-12-2009, 16:14
I definitely agree the simple psychic rules are a huge improvement over 1st edition.

So far my only 3rd edition gripes have been easy to fix with house rules.
A) "Jammed doors", useless and the rules take just as much space as the far better bulkheads from 1st ed.
B) Librarian is too powerful. I make him use AP as well as PP when using his powers.

Depending on the opponent I have sometimes used a hybrid flamer rule where it simply covers a 3x3 block around the target instead of the target tile. I think this is a reasonable blend between the artificial tile edges of 1st and 3rd edition rules and the fiddly 2nd ed.

I usually don't play with the timer as long as both people know the game, so I don't notice the Sergeant death change. Just agree that the Marine player will move as quickly as possible. If they seem to be dawdling the Genestealer complains and brings out the timer for the rest of the game. Although I may start again since the guy at BGG released the nice iPhone timer app.

monoRAIL
03-01-2010, 09:53
Although I may start again since the guy at BGG released the nice iPhone timer app.

Glad I could be of assistance :D

Jagged
06-01-2010, 15:31
While all the changes from 1st to 3rd are pretty minor I do wonder about the LOS rule to room corners. Why?

I would love to know the designers reasoning for that rule. I'm not sure what its trying to achieve. Most other changes I can guess at a reason even if I prefer the old. This change I don't understand tho ;)

Patriarch
06-01-2010, 18:42
While all the changes from 1st to 3rd are pretty minor I do wonder about the LOS rule to room corners. Why?

I would love to know the designers reasoning for that rule. I'm not sure what its trying to achieve. Most other changes I can guess at a reason even if I prefer the old. This change I don't understand tho ;)

I think the 1st ed version is more satisfying and very simple in concept (can you draw a line to the centre of the square? Then you have LOS to what's in it) but also difficult to show - I seem to remember WD FAQs about it. They seem to have avoided this by cutting it out completely. Unless you are in the room, you can't see anything apart from straight ahead. Hmmm...

I'm leaning towards dropping much of the 3rd ed changes like these, but keeping the lovely components of course.

Jagged
07-01-2010, 10:41
The dumbing down disease hits Space Hulk! How sad :(

wilsongrahams
11-01-2010, 06:25
I for one agree with the change for LOS. Now LOS matches the fire arc and in reality, you can't see the corners of a room without sticking your head into it and looking sideways. Now, Terminator armour is restrictive so is good for making you less of an acrobat, and in reality humans can only view forwards because our eyes are on the front of our heads. Also, check the rulebook - if in a corridor, you can't see in the room, but if you are even on the door section - ie in the doorway, then you can see the corners so you can still see within your fire arc. The sideways view to a side for somebody two squares away does just make things too complicated. There will always be a square that you will argue over whether it is in view or not because it will be a critical game turning point.

3rd Ed Space Hulk, is in my opinion, the best game they could have created. They lost the chaff, for the better on the whole, and kept some of the cool extras.

chromedog
11-01-2010, 07:34
It's a combination of the best of 1st with the best of 2nd editions.

What was the good bit from 2nd ed again? Oh yeah, that the terminator models didn't suck. Those pox-ugly terminators from the original box fell into the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

It's quick to learn, and easy to play. Now why can't the rest of their games be like this?

Jagged
11-01-2010, 11:48
I for one agree with the change for LOS. Now LOS matches the fire arc and in reality, you can't see the corners of a room without sticking your head into it and looking sideways. Now, Terminator armour is restrictive so is good for making you less of an acrobat, and in reality humans can only view forwards because our eyes are on the front of our heads. Also, check the rulebook - if in a corridor, you can't see in the room, but if you are even on the door section - ie in the doorway, then you can see the corners so you can still see within your fire arc. The sideways view to a side for somebody two squares away does just make things too complicated. There will always be a square that you will argue over whether it is in view or not because it will be a critical game turning point.

As far as I am concerned this adds an unnecessary complication. Drawing a line from the centre of one square to the centre of another is pretty intuitive. My son (who was 7 when we started playing the game) never had a problem with the old LOS. Now we have this odd exception to remember for no conceivable benefit. So if they did it to make the rules simpler then they have failed YMMV :)

wilsongrahams
12-01-2010, 09:10
Do you not recall the Deathwing tiles and when you were four squares back from a guy and to his side trying to shoot past him and round a corner at a stealer, it was pretty difficult to determine without a piece of string. On standard board sections I agree, it wasn't that hard. I for one like it, just because it's simpler and allows for better game play. Second Ed also had plenty of missions with it, and some background - read the missions book and you'll see that Lorenzo doesn't take part in the Sin Of Damnation missions but is in the fluff as being last to leave, then he is in the following campaign, and is Captain in the final campaign, where Tycho is a sergeant - the same Tycho who gets mauled at Armageddon etc. It was this, and the great front cover artwork that I liked most about second edition - oh, and that the tiles weren't as boring as 1st ed.

Anyone who already knows one ruleset off by heart will find any new omissions less simple simply because they have to forget something, rather than learn something new. I used to play 2nd ed 40k and I never found that complex at all but I understand why anyone playing now would find that too complex.

HaunterV
12-01-2010, 10:52
Anyone who already knows one ruleset off by heart will find any new omissions less simple simply because they have to forget something, rather than learn something new. I used to play 2nd ed 40k and I never found that complex at all but I understand why anyone playing now would find that too complex.

I played second edition too in fact I stopped playing 6 months after 3rd edition came out... they made it lame and stopped giving you your vehicle cards in your box set! remember those? made the introduction of vehicles super simple to slot into the game. I totally skipped all of 4th edition, never even picked up the rulebook or any codexes or anything of the like... The different templates were cool too.

woo for off topic!

LOS is not difficult to figure out... play more Tactic RPGs! :P Final Fantasy Tactics and games like Ultima get you used to it easy enough...

Jagged
12-01-2010, 12:49
Do you not recall the Deathwing tiles and when you were four squares back from a guy and to his side trying to shoot past him and round a corner at a stealer, it was pretty difficult to determine without a piece of string.

The nearest I can get to a totally impartial view is to say my son didn't have any problem when he was 7. And we did/do play with all 3 sets and some of the tiles from WD.

But as I said YMMV. I shall make the parental assumption that my son is particularly bright :D

wilsongrahams
13-01-2010, 11:18
Maybe I had issues because my table was too high to allow me to lean over for a top down view over the rear half of the board. Plus I still think that it takes little away from the game and does keep things simple. The situation arises so rarely, unless you are close to a doorway into a room but trying to shoot a stealer to the side and to the back. The sustained fire bonus on overwatch makes up for any loss in shooting at obscure targets though if you ask me. They should have kept the Bulkheads instead of 'jammed' doors though.

Patriarch
13-01-2010, 11:59
Still keeping some of the things from 1st ed in regular games:
-No sustained on overwatch
-"True" LOS into rooms
-Not had a stealer survive a flamer hit, but killing them for moving around seems unfair to me.
-Lightning claws get +2 in CC, although "guard" makes them pretty unbeatable. Not too sure about "guard" at all.

I much prefer the new CP generation, makes your sergeants "special".

wilsongrahams
13-01-2010, 14:43
I have to agree with the flamer thing - in fact, I don't play that they get hit for moving, I play that they get hit for staying put in the flames as if it's a nice spa...

I only use guard on Claudio and Gideon as they can't use Overwatch. I dislike that they are better in the genestealer turn than attacking in your own turn. Maybe keeping your +2 (+1 per claw?) would work best. Or allow a parry or something instead?

I have yet to try a mission using my squads of lightning claw and thunder hammer terminators (I have one of each) as I just can't imagine them seeing any of the missions through to the end.

Morty
09-02-2010, 08:25
One of the things i miss is all the extra weapons the 1st ed had. and extra equipment for your terminatos 2. also the buld your own squad from deahwing and hybrid where prity cool, and lets not forget genesterler hybrids themseves a pain to use but gave the stealer player the ability to SHOOT BACK.

Re Jaggeds Query. LOs was restricted at corners becuse the desiners realised theat with the SF bonuses in overwatch the stealers have a toughter time geting to the mariens and wanted to give them a slight advantage at corners. Justified fluf wises in that a Terminator (or other hevey armoured model) has a very limited field of veaw and cant lean over to 'peak' around the corner.

Also the flamer rules represant a 'Splash' affect from the impact spot (lets rember space is Very low G after all) the idea was the becuse the grav' is so low the jet would act like water when it hits and 'splash' into the nearby space any model that srevives the 'splash' would do so by avod and/or deflect the wave of fuel, leaving the model in a relativly safe area ie were it cleared os moving would bring it into contact with more of the burning fuel and hence a new roll. Also this gave a good game mecanic in that even if a model sevived the flamer shot. the flamer could still then perform it's function as a blocker for the marines.

Also as for Assault cannons Malfunction originaly the AC had 3 reloads each representing 1000 rounds and each turn is suposted to be 3 seconds. So the Ac malfuntion realy maks sence Cuss after all firing 2-4000 rounds in 30 seconds IS gona damage the gun.

wilsongrahams
09-02-2010, 11:56
The problem, with that is that the Assault Cannon fluuf doesn't fit with the game mechanic. If after firing 300 rounds per burst I was only able to kill one Genestealer I'd be a little disappointed!

I mentioned it elsewhere I believe but I think an Assault cannon would benefit from the 2nd ed overkill rule, where each 'kill' on a burst slays a target rather than just being lost on the same kill. This would mean you can manage to kill more than 20 stealers a game then! As it is, it's only roughly twice the effectiveness of a storm bolter and in a game will likely kill less than the stormbolter due to ammo limitation.

As for the Heavy Flamer - I really like the original version, but also liked the 2nd ed version, so I use the 2nd ed rules for a normal marine flamer, and the 1st/3rd ed for the terminator heavy flamer.

AndrewGPaul
09-02-2010, 13:37
IIRC, the assault cannon was originally described as firing 10 50-round bursts before needing reloading.

wilsongrahams
16-02-2010, 08:36
Speaking of new versus old, I think the better thing about the original space hulk was the support offered by the expansions and in white dwarf. I've just bought the Deathwing missions book for those 3 or 4 that weren't put into 3rd ed. Hurry up royal mail! This was making me think about all the extra missions available in white dwarf etc. Since September when 3rd ed was released there has been no mention of space hulk ever again despite that issue saying that they wanted to have more battle reports etc in future issues.

I have all white dwarf missions from 2nd ed and onwards, but I think GW should release the missions from Deathwing, Genestealer, White Dwarf and the Missions book whatever it was called, as a download or something. As it is, there isn't even a link to Space Hulk on the website for the FAQ anymore and you have to go through the search engine.

wilsongrahams
23-02-2010, 16:16
Love Deathwing. The new missions are good, as are the objectives for create your own missions. All I'm missing is the geotile things for how to create maps. Without those I don't know how big or what style each map should be. Grrr. I'm guessing they use the 3x wide corridors as like the streets and all the side corridors are where the stealers charge in from as they walk on towards the objective?

FXMorph
24-02-2010, 12:51
Is this game still sold. last I heard it is not being made by GW anymore. :\

Llew
24-02-2010, 13:22
It was a limited edition. (I think this was silly, but what do I know?) Check ebay. You can probably still find it there.

wilsongrahams
24-02-2010, 16:27
You won't get it from GW anymore - in fact they will likely deny they ever made it, lol, but yes, try ebay and you can get a complete box for around the same as the original price. Do not waste your money paying over the odds. 60 was the new GW price, and many are trying to get 120+ still, even though those on auctions and not buy it now are still 45-70.

Also, be warned, read the listings carefully as many are selling them as new in box but in small print state they have no miniatures in because they have sold them seperately. This may not worry you, but just be careful you get what you want. A full set of tiles, counters and the books is usually around 25. If you have your own minis then this may be a cheaper option.

AndrewGPaul
25-02-2010, 07:51
Love Deathwing. The new missions are good, as are the objectives for create your own missions. All I'm missing is the geotile things for how to create maps. Without those I don't know how big or what style each map should be. Grrr. I'm guessing they use the 3x wide corridors as like the streets and all the side corridors are where the stealers charge in from as they walk on towards the objective?

Most of the wide corridor sections came in Genestealer. There were a couple in Deathwing, but most of the geotiles were fairly standard twisty corridors.

They were only used for the single-player campaign, as I recall. The actual 2-player missions had standard set-ups (and 4 of them are in the new Space Hulk anyway; the one with the dead Terminator and the cup, the one where the Marine player gets 5 power fields to block corridors and a couple of others. They missed out the one with three C.A.T.s (because there's only one in the box) and one other one.

wilsongrahams
26-02-2010, 18:08
Yeah they missed out CAT hunt cos of the lack of CATs and Seek and retrieve due to the 5x5 room.

Only one mission in 3rd ed was actually new I believe, with only Pitfall coming from the Missions book. I haven't got a copy of the Genestealer missions yet but am working on it.

In case anyone is interested, here's the maps for the two missing missions from Deathwing that never made it into 3rd ed.

odinsgrandson
30-04-2010, 16:09
The Brood Lord and Librarian are the biggest differences. The Librarian is quite a bit better than the Deathwatch Librarian and quite a bit simpler than the Genestealer one.

Morty
16-05-2010, 08:59
I would agree that the Libraian is a Big Change Simpler rules and abilities at the cost of flaxablitity and power.

But the brood lord is not realy that much of a change on the old patriarch rules the 'Hard to kill' rule replacing the 'Agise' card any sensable player kept back for him.

as for 'hard to kill' it's worth noting that the wording is nicely changed to it's original operance for Ogrins who had the rule.